How is it that we've had hip-hoppers holding it down from one end of the spectrum to the other (ya'll know what I mean). For years they've toiled and hocked their wares all in the name of promoting their artform. Minimal compensation and limited recognition have been afforded these cats but still they press on.

Enter: One Eminem- setting records, garnering worldwide attention, fortune and fame almost overnight. Is it a phenomenon or the same old sad song? That a Caucasion (albeit talented) but still Caucasion can come on the scene (a scene that has historically been demoninated by African-Americans and other minorities) and rob others of what they've worked so hard to achieve all these years. For example: Q-Tip recently disclosed in an interview that one year(I think after Low End) he barely cleared $30,000! How can this be? That may be a bad example because ATCQ was not considered as mainstream as the now *gasp* infamous Cash Money & No Limit squads (they're paid too but haven't garnered nearly as much attention and reverence as Mr. Mathers!)

It has been surmised that the overwhelming majority of CONSISTENT hip-hop consumers are young, caucasion teens? So, they've supported "us" too, right? So somebody please explain this. . .when is it going to end? And what can we do to help elevate the status of say, culturally uplifting and conscientous acts such as The Roots, De La & Outkast?





"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and realizing it has meant nothing"- me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

How dare he and other black athletes show exceptional skill at games white men invented, then dominate them to the point that white folks no longer have a chance at being bonafide stars. Tiger and the Williams sisters have the audacity to go after golf and tennis, two of the last 3 professional sports that still belong to caucasians. Meanwhile, Vinny Del Negro and Travis Knight try so hard; but can't seem to ever rival Vince Carter and Shaq. Pisses ME off. How about you?

What can we do to make sure white athletes are proportionally represented in pro sports?


AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

Everyone is just jealous of eminem and his success and accolades. Who cares if he's white, the man is doing something right. Didn't Dr Dre sign him anyway? Who cares what money tribe made? That is irrelevant. The industry has changed alot in the last 10 years anyway. Music is no longer about originality or talent. Its about who sells the most records and pays the most for their radio spot. Give up on the eminem bashing, you act like he's taking food out of your mouth or something. Just chill. That Michael Jordan reply is excellent too by the way.

part of the reason eminem is so big is because he is played on rap stations and alternative rock stations ,at least in my area,only because he is white. the only thing alternative about eminem is he is a white emcee. so part of the reason eminem is so big is because he is white and that is fucked up.

Trey your unbelievable. I cannot believe you advocate the lack of originality and talent. You sound really foolish. I guess, then, that you would by anything.

Trey your unbelievable. I cannot believe you advocate the lack of originality and talent. You sound really foolish. I guess, then, that you would by anything.

Two things: Michael Jordan was unarguably the ABSOLUTE pennacle of Basketball in his hey day. . .EMINEM IS NOT. I can name ten artists who are at least as good or better who haven't had 1/16 of his success, so now what?

And secondly: I'm in no way jealous of Eminem. . .that's not my style. I think he's got mad skills. I also don't take issue with the fact that he's succeeded in this game but I guess my question is what does he have that countless others who have come, gone and still remain don't have? The answer SEEMS a little too obvious.

The question remains: How can we help the current status of hip-hop consumerism, as a whole?


"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and thinking it has meant nothing"- me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

Comparing eminem to Michael Jordan is a little too complimentary.

Maybe if Jordan had made one shot and then showed replays of that shot throughout his career (with different camera angles of course) there might be a comparison. The same controversey that propels Eminem was brought to you by Too Live Crew and Public Enemy but neither groups had the opportunity to be mainstream fixtures- no appealing to the little "white" kids for them, no pop radio airplay.

dont front- the difference is obvious.

but its ok- cant last forever

K

I think this thread is better suited for the Lesson anyway- not that it hasnt been discussed before.

"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and thinking it has meant nothing"- me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

like always

don't get me wrong Eminem used to be my boy- but then he hit a brick wall with dre and I havent found much use for his work since then; alot of repeated themes and ideas and sound styles.

His work with Soundbombing was good- just on some ol lyricist ish, the stuff he did with Royce was good too on the same principle. The stuff he's doing with D12 shows promise.

But like I said from the start- there's an obvious difference between Em's pop persona (even if its all about dissing pop itself) and his underground accomplishments; the more he deploys the pop themes the less appreciation i have.


"I am whatever you say I am..."- shut that shit up- thats TOOOOOOO damned easy. "Radio wont even play my jam..." that cracks me up.

K

speak slowly for the children! you just broke eminem down. I loved him when he was underground....soundbombing royce the 5'9 alla dat then this ish comes out! Bluh! He is soooo very pop. makin fun of his own kind. people have to wake up and realize that eminem is successful because of the color of his skin...period point blank. For example...Rass Kass could rhyme anyone under a table...but still no one knows of him or appreciate his skills cause of his beats...eminems beats just as terrible...but who cares he's white! his talent got him to where he is now but it's his skin color that keeps him there.

Sincerely,
Serena
Okayplayers Angriest Sweetheart

don't mind me i'm just ranting.....

"niggas ain't hatin...they just ain't payin you no attention"-Common

And remember serenalovesu....well...on aim at least..


*~*~*~*~*Don't you hate that little leprechan? Click on that little bastard!*~*~*~*~*

Um. 2 Live Crew didn't blow up til they got press coverage about their legal troubles;Em's the other way around. 2 Live Crew had 2 huge hit albums given the time period: As Nasty, and Banned in the USA. Em only has 2 huge hit albums so far. I don't see what your beef is. As far as PE is concerned, they were always more pro-black, so you can't really have expected them to strike a chord with white kids. Despite this, Fear and Takes a Nation still got respectable sales, Can't Truss It, Give IT Up, and Bring the Noise Rmx w/Anthrax all got MTV run, daytime at that. But, PE is an extremely shitty analogy because of their pro-black bent. A better analogy, but one you avoided because it would explode your argument would be NWA. Not only do they have misogynist, violent, and offensive lyrics, but also have Dre on the boards. The fact they went platinum shows you that controversy sold back then. Man, I had heard so much about you too as far as debate went.....I know you can do better.....can't you?

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

Contrary to popular belief my purpose extends far beyond debate. In this case- this is an old dead issue and anybody with sense would not try to argue against the idea that Eminem's success is in part due to his race- even he admits it.

As far as NWA, Too Live Crew, or TOO Short- whatever the controversey none of those artists were given play in pop media- dont kid yourself. Two Live Crew was NEVER on the couple of Teen People- thats a fact. NWA never hosted an MTV show- that is also a fact. Im not even sure if any of those groups ever even made it to Saturday Night Live.

By the way Eminem has had three albums.



>Um. 2 Live Crew didn't blow
>up til they got press
>coverage about their legal troubles;Em's
>the other way around.

EXACTLY- but you act like 2 Live crew didnt exist before the legal troubles and thats preposterous; in Em's case he was a star before anybody even had a chance to consider his content- thats exactly the point. Eminiem's content had been "shocking" since the Slim Shady EP that was released a long time before the album- for some reason they didnt catch on til this album...why is that- cuz they didnt care he was a white guy and it was easier to sell him to "white" consumers- cmon man this has been industry custom since the 50's.

Eminem got put on cuz he's got skills? maybe on Dre's end of things- but not much farther. Since when does MTV care about skills?

>I don't see
>what your beef is.

Did I ever say I had beef- Like I said he used to be a favorite of mine- but that was about two years ago and he hasnt changed since.

He is whatever I say is right- Tired

> As
>far as PE is concerned,
>they were always more pro-black,
>so you can't really have
>expected them to strike a
>chord with white kids.

right cuz those "white" kids sure do hate rebelious music- are you serious? I gues Rage against the Machine and Limp Bizkit should pack it up. You might not hae expected PE to strike a chord with "white" kids- but they sure as hell did... they still werent on the cover of Teen People though.

> A better analogy,
>but one you avoided because
>it would explode your argument
>would be NWA. Not only
>do they have misogynist, violent,
>and offensive lyrics, but also
>have Dre on the boards.
>The fact they went platinum
>shows you that controversy sold
>back then.

Wow that sure as hell blows up my argument- face the facts kid. NWA DID go platinum without the promotional energy that Eminem has the luxury of. Furthermore you guys are still willing to gauge the ability of seasoned veterans even the likes of Puffy and Will Smith go way back in our history- Eminem is not even all that experienced- face the facts... Im here in Detroit I remember when he first got started less than 5 years ago... he hasnt come that far.

Man, I had
>heard so much about you
>too as far as debate
>went.....I know you can do
>better.....can't you?

Yuck- kid you're not even in my league especially if you call all that an argument.

K

>Contrary to popular belief my purpose
>extends far beyond debate. In
>this case- this is an
>old dead issue and anybody
>with sense would not try
>to argue against the idea
>that Eminem's success is in
>part due to his race-
>even he admits it.

I don't deny that. My original reason for the parody was that singling out Eminem for his success in the face of more talented people, while focusing on the fact that that he was white and hip-hop was created by blacks, seemed as half-baked as if I picked any black athlete with comparable success in a white-invented sport and complained. If your issue is with less talented artists succeeding in terms of sales in the face of more talented artists, start with the least talented peeps. Like in New Orleans, or point at LFO if you want to make a point about whiteness as well. But pointing at Eminem, who has undeniable talent, seems just as dumb as pointing at Vince Carter and crying foul. He's closer to a rookie, right? Does that make you feel better?
>
>As far as NWA, Too Live
>Crew, - whatever
>the controversey none of those
>artists were given play in
>pop media- dont kid yourself.

Son, they were both in Time magazine with feature articles, they both got daytime play on MTV. 2 Live Crew made front page of the Hartford Courant and were featured on many network broadcasts when they had the Supreme Court case. Now remember that:1. rap is a bigger genre proportionally that it was back then and 2. It's a bigger record market in terms of sales than it was back then. 3. MTV has more clout and more viewers than it did back then. Ergo, people of the same level of controversy, in a larger market, are more newsworthy because they're richer and more famous. Don't get it twisted.

>Two Live Crew was NEVER
>on the couple of Teen
>People- thats a fact.

2 Live Crew was featured in People, though. Not on the cover, but.... Did Teen People exist back then? Seriously, I don't remember it....if so, then fine but I don't remember it

NWA
>never hosted an MTV show-
>that is also a fact.

But MC Hammer got a WHOLE day to host MTV. Again, yet a better example of a person to point out if your beef is non-skilled rappers getting exposure and blowing up. Moreover, Rap had its own TV show in that era, so all rappers were more likely to show up on MTV Raps then anywhere else. Now that MTV has decidedly gone to more performer-centric, non-genre specific, programming: i.e. Sisqo's Shakedown, Tyrese and Mandy Moore being VJ's, N'Sync favorite videos, Aguilera's What A Girl Wants Special, best of Wu-Tang, to name a few, the odds are way greater that Em would get his two hours of hosting relative to NWA's chances back in the day.



>Im not even sure if
>any of those groups ever
>even made it to Saturday
>Night Live.

Me neither so let's leave this alone for now.




>
>By the way Eminem has had
>three albums.
>
I said 2 huge hit albums, obviously Infinite doesn't fit that category. But thanks for the irrelevant info I already knew.
>
>>Um. 2 Live Crew didn't blow
>>up til they got press
>>coverage about their legal troubles;Em's
>>the other way around.
>
>EXACTLY- but you act like 2
>Live crew didnt exist before
>the legal troubles and thats
>preposterous; in Em's case he
>was a star before anybody
>even had a chance to
>consider his content- thats exactly
>the point.

Actually I don't act like they didn't exist before. What I'm saying is that 2 Live Crew blew up out of media coverage on notoriety, controversy and legal troubles. Notice the same thing happened to Tupac after all his legal troubles. He went uber-plat compared to 2Pacalypse. The fact that media attention blows you up is a no-brainer. Before "My Name Is......", Em couldn't even get in XXL, was relegated to Unsigned Hype and Up and Coming coverage in hip-hop mags. It wasn't til his album dropped that he made any major magazines or covers, really.

Eminiem's content had
>been "shocking" since the Slim
>Shady EP that was released
>a long time before the
>album- for some reason they
>didnt catch on til this
>album...why is that- cuz they
>didnt care he was a
>white guy and it was
>easier to sell him to
>"white" consumers- cmon man this
>has been industry custom since
>the 50's.

They who? The media? Actually this proves my point either way. NWA got Time coverage after "Straight Out of Compton". So, if you count NWA and the Posse as the debut album, and Straight Out of Compton as the second, then Em took the same amount of albums, unless you want to count Infinite and the EP, then Em took longer to get attention than NWA did. Or, if you don't count NWA and the Posse, it still took Em longer.
>
>Eminem got put on cuz he's
>got skills? maybe on Dre's
>end of things- but not
>much farther. Since when does
>MTV care about skills?

Again, you're proving my points. Rather than getting signed out of being boys with someone, Em earned his contract freestyling and clawing his way up out the trunk. He earned his contract with Aftermath by paying dues. Dre was ready to sign him before he knew he was white. The fact that Dre makes nearly everything he produces go platinum is after the fact, and also a reason that Em blew up. Look Em blew up becuase Dre produced him, because he's controversial, he writes some of the cathchiest choruses in the business (for better or for worse)and lastly because he's white. If it was just whiteness, Jesse James and House of Pain would be competing with Will Smith for sales track records. 3rd Bass would have been Def Jam's biggest selling act, as they were white and had skills. Snoop was just as misogynistic, produced by Dre, and went Multi-plat. Same w/ NWA. As far as MTV caring about skills, of course they don't, but this is why Juvenile, Will Smith, and Puff slipped through the cracks as well. It's obviously not just about race, and it's obvious Em is a better emcee than the aforementioned.

>
>right cuz those "white" kids sure
>do hate rebelious music- are
>you serious? I gues Rage
>against the Machine and Limp
>Bizkit should pack it up.
>You might not hae expected
>PE to strike a chord
>with "white" kids- but they
>sure as hell did... they
>still werent on the cover
>of Teen People though.

I said pro-black, not rebellious in general. Limp Bizkit wasn't pro-black the last time I checked. Rage deals with other issues, but...both of these groups they have more of a rock/metal sonic backdrop, while there are only about 5 songs I can think of where PE has anything close to that. I meant my comments on PE to show why they might alienate some potential buyers....see any white kids buying Da Lench Mob? However, I gave examples of MTV love shown to PE in the face of all that. Again, check that Teen people thing.



>Wow that sure as hell blows
>up my argument- face the
>facts kid. NWA DID go
>platinum without the promotional energy
>that Eminem has the luxury
>of.

Yes they did. Interscope/Aftermath had more money to play with after the Death Row earnings fattened the coffers. More $$$=higher promotional budgets=more sales for already popular artist. So, if Em benefited of the extra promotion vs. NWA, isn't that more of a testament to NWA's feat, and doesn't it explode your arguments.

Furthermore you guys are
>still willing to gauge the
>ability of seasoned veterans even
>the likes of Puffy and
>Will Smith go way back
>in our history- Eminem is
>not even all that experienced-
>face the facts... Im here
>in Detroit I remember when
>he first got started less
>than 5 years ago... he
>hasnt come that far.

Look when it comes to jacking beats and resorting to ghostwriters as well as sub par rhyme prowess, I would assume that's exhibiting less creativity and talent than the starving artists Just Lisa was whining about. I can't say that Em does any of the three. Moreover, longevity doesn't give you an automatic edge for greatest emcee. Hammer dropped more albums than Eminem, but if that makes him better in your eyes, well.....

>
>Yuck- kid you're not even in
>my league especially if you
>call all that an argument.

Whatever son. You need TinkyWinky to ghostwrite or something.


AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

>I don't deny that. My original
>reason for the parody was
>that singling out Eminem for
>his success in the face
>of more talented people, while
>focusing on the fact that
>that he was white and
>hip-hop was created by blacks,
>seemed as half-baked as if
>I picked any black athlete
>with comparable success in a
>white-invented sport and complained. If
>your issue is with less
>talented artists succeeding in terms
>of sales in the face
>of more talented artists, start
>with the least talented peeps.
>Like in New Orleans, or
>point at LFO if you
>want to make a point
>about whiteness as well. But
>pointing at Eminem, who has
>undeniable talent, seems just as
>dumb as pointing at Vince
>Carter and crying foul. He's
>closer to a rookie, right?
>Does that make you feel
>better?

Thats just silly- the fact that this argument still rages points out that Eminem's "talent" is still very much deniable.

Furthermore the challenge to your analgoy still stands- how does Eminem compare to vince carter after being in the business for 3 albums? How many seasons has Vince carter played?

>>As far as NWA, Too Live
>>Crew, - whatever
>>the controversey none of those
>>artists were given play in
>>pop media- dont kid yourself.
>
>Son, they were both in Time
>magazine with feature articles, they
>both got daytime play on
>MTV. 2 Live Crew made
>front page of the Hartford
>Courant and were featured on
>many network broadcasts when they
>had the Supreme Court case.
>Now remember that:1. rap is
>a bigger genre proportionally that
>it was back then and
>2. It's a bigger record
>market in terms of sales
>than it was back then.
>3. MTV has more clout
>and more viewers than it
>did back then. Ergo, people
>of the same level of
>controversy, in a larger market,
>are more newsworthy because they're
>richer and more famous. Don't
>get it twisted.

Sorry Charlie- they still werent on the cover of Teen People- a magazine that i remind you has nothing to do with News and information certainly not on the level of Time and newsweek.

>2 Live Crew was featured in
>People, though. Not on the
>cover, but.... Did Teen
>People exist back then? Seriously,
>I don't remember it....if so,
>then fine but I don't
>remember it

Is this the type of argument you expect to shake me. If Teen people was out then- would 2 Live Crew have been on the cover?
You're playing dumb- that doesnt help your case.

> NWA
>>never hosted an MTV show-
>>that is also a fact.
>
>But MC Hammer got a WHOLE
>day to host MTV.

Sorry dude- apples and oranges we're talking about controversial artists- Hammer was never controversial (not for "white" media at least)

>Again,
>yet a better example of
>a person to point out
>if your beef is non-skilled
>rappers getting exposure and blowing
>up.

Nobody ever said Eminem didnt have skill.

>Moreover, Rap had its
>own TV show in that
>era, so all rappers were
>more likely to show up
>on MTV Raps then anywhere
>else. Now that MTV has
>decidedly gone to more performer-centric,
>non-genre specific, programming: i.e. Sisqo's
>Shakedown, Tyrese and Mandy Moore
>being VJ's, N'Sync favorite videos,
>Aguilera's What A Girl Wants
>Special, best of Wu-Tang, to
>name a few, the odds
>are way greater that Em
>would get his two hours
>of hosting relative to NWA's
>chances back in the day.

So where is Common's show? Where is DMX's show? You're playing the role- you're not convincing.

>>Im not even sure if
>>any of those groups ever
>>even made it to Saturday
>>Night Live.
>
>Me neither so let's leave this
>alone for now.

Oh word cuz it doesnt help your case- forget that. I do know for a fact that Eminem was on SNL so you let me know if any of the other artists have been. The fact that we dont even remember it is a pretty clear sign in and of itself.

>>
>>By the way Eminem has had
>>three albums.
>>
>I said 2 huge hit albums,
>obviously Infinite doesn't fit that
>category. But thanks for the
>irrelevant info I already knew.

so sensitive

>>>Um. 2 Live Crew didn't blow
>>>up til they got press
>>>coverage about their legal troubles;Em's
>>>the other way around.
>>
>>EXACTLY- but you act like 2
>>Live crew didnt exist before
>>the legal troubles and thats
>>preposterous; in Em's case he
>>was a star before anybody
>>even had a chance to
>>consider his content- thats exactly
>>the point.
>
>Actually I don't act like they
>didn't exist before. What I'm
>saying is that 2 Live
>Crew blew up out of
>media coverage on notoriety, controversy
>and legal troubles. Notice the
>same thing happened to Tupac
>after all his legal troubles.
>He went uber-plat compared to
>2Pacalypse. The fact that media
>attention blows you up is
>a no-brainer. Before "My Name
>Is......", Em couldn't even get
>in XXL, was relegated to
>Unsigned Hype and Up and
>Coming coverage in hip-hop mags.
> It wasn't til his
>album dropped that he made
>any major magazines or covers,
>really.

You're being silly- avoiding the most primary reason why the boy is successful. A reason that he admits and even does songs about. Wht are you trying to prove- that Eminem isnt popular cuz of his race- are you serious?

> Eminiem's content had
>>been "shocking" since the Slim
>>Shady EP that was released
>>a long time before the
>>album- for some reason they
>>didnt catch on til this
>>album...why is that- cuz they
>>didnt care he was a
>>white guy and it was
>>easier to sell him to
>>"white" consumers- cmon man this
>>has been industry custom since
>>the 50's.
>
>They who? The media? Actually this
>proves my point either way.
>NWA got Time coverage
>after "Straight Out of Compton".
>So, if you count NWA
>and the Posse as the
>debut album, and Straight Out
>of Compton as the second,
>then Em took the same
>amount of albums, unless you
>want to count Infinite and
>the EP, then Em took
>longer to get attention than
>NWA did. Or, if you
>don't count NWA and the
>Posse, it still took Em
>longer.

No cover of Teen People. And Eminem did it without a major consitituionally challenging legal case.

>>Eminem got put on cuz he's
>>got skills? maybe on Dre's
>>end of things- but not
>>much farther. Since when does
>>MTV care about skills?
>
>Again, you're proving my points. Rather
>than getting signed out of
>being boys with someone, Em
>earned his contract freestyling and
>clawing his way up out
>the trunk. He earned his
>contract with Aftermath by paying
>dues. Dre was ready to
>sign him before he knew
>he was white. The fact
>that Dre makes nearly everything
>he produces go platinum is
>after the fact, and also
>a reason that Em blew
>up. Look Em blew up
>becuase Dre produced him, because
>he's controversial, he writes some
>of the cathchiest choruses in
>the business (for better or
>for worse)and lastly because he's
>white. If it was just
>whiteness, Jesse James and House
>of Pain would be competing
>with Will Smith for sales
>track records.

Or maybe even Kid Rock- or Limp Bizkit.

>3rd Bass would
>have been Def Jam's biggest
>selling act, as they were
>white and had skills. Snoop
>was just as misogynistic, produced
>by Dre, and went Multi-plat.
>Same w/ NWA. As far
>as MTV caring about skills,
>of course they don't, but
>this is why Juvenile, Will
>Smith, and Puff slipped through
>the cracks as well. It's
>obviously not just about race,
>and it's obvious Em is
>a better emcee than the
>aforementioned.

whatevr- Cash Money is very popular despite your opinion. Ha wasnt a success cuz nobody liked it. But why was I am a success- that song sucks and everybody knows it.

>>right cuz those "white" kids sure
>>do hate rebelious music- are
>>you serious? I gues Rage
>>against the Machine and Limp
>>Bizkit should pack it up.
>>You might not hae expected
>>PE to strike a chord
>>with "white" kids- but they
>>sure as hell did... they
>>still werent on the cover
>>of Teen People though.
>
>I said pro-black, not rebellious in
>general. Limp Bizkit wasn't pro-black
>the last time I checked.
>Rage deals with other issues,
>but...both of these groups they
>have more of a rock/metal
>sonic backdrop, while there are
>only about 5 songs I
>can think of where PE
>has anything close to that.
>I meant my comments on
>PE to show why they
>might alienate some potential buyers....see
>any white kids buying Da
>Lench Mob? However, I gave
>examples of MTV love shown
>to PE in the face
>of all that. Again, check
>that Teen people thing.

Sorry the fact is PE was very popular among young "white" teens- the idea that they were alienized by the music isnt neccessarly demonstrated by the history. PE was on the soundtrack of Less Than Zero cuz there were nothing but Black people in that movie- much less in the theatres watching.

>>Wow that sure as hell blows
>>up my argument- face the
>>facts kid. NWA DID go
>>platinum without the promotional energy
>>that Eminem has the luxury
>>of.
>
>Yes they did. Interscope/Aftermath had more
>money to play with after
>the Death Row earnings fattened
>the coffers. More $$$=higher promotional
>budgets=more sales for already popular
>artist. So, if Em benefited
>of the extra promotion vs.
>NWA, isn't that more of
>a testament to NWA's feat,
>and doesn't it explode your
>arguments.

Nope cuz Eminem's success has transfused into areas that are to this very day denied black artists. NWA did it with serious enfringments on their access- Eminem did it with the cover of Teen People heralding his Hip Hop skills.

>Furthermore you guys are
>>still willing to gauge the
>>ability of seasoned veterans even
>>the likes of Puffy and
>>Will Smith go way back
>>in our history- Eminem is
>>not even all that experienced-
>>face the facts... Im here
>>in Detroit I remember when
>>he first got started less
>>than 5 years ago... he
>>hasnt come that far.
>
>Look when it comes to jacking
>beats and resorting to ghostwriters
>as well as sub par
>rhyme prowess, I would assume
>that's exhibiting less creativity and
>talent than the starving artists
>Just Lisa was whining about.
>I can't say that Em
>does any of the three.
>Moreover, longevity doesn't give you
>an automatic edge for greatest
>emcee. Hammer dropped more albums
>than Eminem, but if that
>makes him better in your
>eyes, well.....

Yuck- non sequitor argument that establishes nothing. The point is one of many points that destroys yoru analogy- in this instance we demonstrate that Emineme doesnt have the experience of his peers- your only response is experience isnt everything. Thats weak.

>>Yuck- kid you're not even in
>>my league especially if you
>>call all that an argument.
>
>Whatever son. You need TinkyWinky to
>ghostwrite or something.

I could get Slim Shady to ghostwrite my ish and still come out on top- your position is futile. Eminem has made songs about this very issue.


"You're blind baby- you cant see- you need to wear glasses like DMC"

hows that for ghost writing

K

first off, i dont think nonseq was talking about comparing mj and em directly but about how black b ball players have taken over b ball when it was made by a white man. there were other b ball names up there and not only mj.



------------------
mE AKA joe1192

who is Jill Scott?
-------------------

The names that were mentioned were the likes of Tiger Woods and the William's sisters virtual champions in their fields- dont get me started but Eminem is not a champion in any analgous sense of the word.

If Tiger Woods had played (not necessarily won) 3 tournaments he wouldnt be a champion. If Shaq had played 3 seasons he wouldnt be considered the best player in the game- he wouldnt be deemed an icon. Eminem has done 3 marginally successful (on the averag) albums- he is promoted as the hottest thing in Hip Hop.

If you want to draw analogies in the sense of bsketball as raised by the other names mentioned Em is still a rookie in this game. To draw the analogy we're saying that Em isnt the pinnacle of Hip Hop talent despite the promotion of mainstream media (even Teen People (-snicker-), he's not the most skilled or capable and he hasnt nearly paid the dues of many of his peers.

K

>The names that were mentioned were
>the likes of Tiger Woods
>and the William's sisters virtual
>champions in their fields- dont
>get me started but Eminem
>is not a champion in
>any analgous sense of the
>word.
>
>If Tiger Woods had played (not
>necessarily won) 3 tournaments he
>wouldnt be a champion. If
>Shaq had played 3 seasons
>he wouldnt be considered the
>best player in the game-
>he wouldnt be deemed an
>icon. Eminem has done 3
>marginally successful (on the averag)
>albums- he is promoted as
>the hottest thing in Hip
>Hop.
>
>If you want to draw analogies
>in the sense of bsketball
>as raised by the other
>names mentioned Em is still
>a rookie in this game.
>To draw the analogy we're
>saying that Em isnt the
>pinnacle of Hip Hop talent
>despite the promotion of mainstream
>media (even Teen People (-snicker-),
>he's not the most skilled
>or capable and he hasnt
>nearly paid the dues of
>many of his peers.
>
>K
>
>
once again i state that the person was talking about black people taking over the games("white sports"). shaq and vince carters names were mentioned along with some white dudes up there(but of course u left out vince carters name). carter does what he does well, and the media r on his dick, same with em.

------------------
mE AKA joe1192

who is Jill Scott?
-------------------

>once again i state that the
>person was talking about black
>people taking over the games("white
>sports"). shaq and vince carters
>names were mentioned along with
>some white dudes up there(but
>of course u left out
>vince carters name). carter does
>what he does well, and
>the media r on his
>dick, same with em.

How many seasons has vince carter played the game?

How many albums does Eminem have? How many did he have before he was considered "popular?"

Eminem does what he does well- but thats not hardly why he's a pop media darling; He was given that credit even before pop music realized that he was talking about all types of ish they didnt like. Cmon- why is Eminem posted up in sections that havent mentioned Hip Hop sicne their very beginning? When you show me a Teen People with Cannibus on the cover then you might have an argument.

The basketball analogy is weak cuz it disregards the fact that alot of Eminem's promotion didnt necessarily demonstrate his skill or even the idea that he was endorsed by the Hip Hop community- sure we all knew that cuz we know Hip Hop but the MTV audience?

The propper analogy would be telling Vince Carter that he was MVP before each game and then defending his title no matter how he played.

Ive said it before- Eminem is good- but he's no Tiger Williams, he's no Vince carter, he's not even MC Serch- but somehow he's a Hip Hop miracle.

K

The idea that Eminem is "taking" over in any fashion similar to the dominance of the Black athelete is ludicrous.

I think Black basketball players are like 70% of the league, does one "white" guy in Hip Hop really warrant the comparison? Do you think "white" emcees will ever reach that proportion in Hip Hop?

K

look at rock jazz blues etc

J'ai le sang de mille guerriers Haitiens dans mes veins.

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double- edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrow

When
>you show me a Teen
>People with Cannibus on the
>cover then you might have
>an argument.

>The propper analogy would be telling
>Vince Carter that he was
>MVP before each game and
>then defending his title no
>matter how he played.

This is beautiful!!!!!...put them on blast K...i haven't read ure debaticles in a hot minute..never a dull moment



Much love,
Kyle

Surgeon General- DPS...drunk posters society...y'all ain't ready!?!? We soldiers...don't be scurrrrrred

vinyl junkies/cd confitionados...go here
http://www.recordkingdom.com

"i always tell people that fame is
nothing but a good publicist, while
talent is a genuine article..." ~ Pozi

much love,
Kyle

Detroit..Let's GO!!! May 12th Dilla Walk for Lupus...Belle Isle...

http://walk.lupusresearch.org/goto/blackeyedskeez

Even a Dollar can HELP..


http://www.myspace.com/jedikyle
http://www.detroitderbygirls.com/

MY response was simply a parody of your original, half-baked thread. Insert Vince Carter instead of Michael Jordan if it makes you sleep better at night. My point was that it's ignorant to single out Eminem and his ethnicity vis a vis that of the creators of hip hop, anymore than it is to single out black people for achieving new heights in white invented sports. If they have skill, congratulate. Had you mentioned Will Smith, MC Hammer, and Mase along with your whining about Eminem, it would not have seemed so ignorant. Look, when it comes to Eminem's success, I'm glad to see someone with actual skill is going plat instead sold out, wack motherfuckers that employ ghostwriters, like Willie and Puff. Those cats go plat too. Will smith boasts of selling 20 million on Willenium. Put him in too when you start bitching. Look at it this way: the aforementioned wack emcees go plat jacking hits left and right. At least Em's creative. And even Posdnous, a legend himself, says Em can hold his own against most of the emcees that are considered great.

So my point is this: be pissed off about those other wack, unoriginal, exploitative wastes of flesh in the shiny suits. THEN go after Em. He can't help it if he's white. PUff can choose to not jack hit songs. Em is 10 times more creative yet you single HIM out? Seems like you set it off flawed to begin with.

Was it THAT hard to get? I'll take it down a notch next time.


AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

But I think the analogy may be inapt for a couple of reasons.

First, in the purest sense of your post -- white vs black -- there is justifiable hesitation whenever the oppressor class tries to co-opt something good created by the oppressed class.

Second, in the sports analogy, considering the small number of minorities in coaching, administrative and ownership positions, I'm not completely convinced that MJ or any other Black player, or all of them combined, could be viewed as having stolen or co-opted the white man's game. I actually thought the white man's game was money.

Just my two cents.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

>I actually thought the white
>man's game was money.

doesn't the same hold true in the music biz? black distributers? even black "successes" like puffy and master p got white bosses.

in both the sports and entertainment cases the black folk involved are the tools used to make the OWNERS (who are white) more dough. true for jordan and true for dre.

the twist tht comes in is that if we get a deluge of white rappers then that cuts into the "black slice" of the pie. and ultimately, i think this is what folks are salty about.

folks who are bitching about eminem should be more upset at the lack of black in the boardrooms of the corporations, because ultimately eminem is just a pawn of a different color. ultimately he'll fade (just like new kids on the black and every other pop phenomenon, the latino and african ones too). then they'll get a new kid and the cycle will continue

anybody ever wonder if em is a red herring to make us forget who REALLY has the power? if we quit tripping off the crumbs and started putting our resources together to actually CONTROL something, then we wouldn't have to worry about folk "stealing" something from us.

maybe it's just me.
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
(see Candy1's sig about what that means)
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

>>I actually thought the white
>>man's game was money.
>
>doesn't the same hold true in
>the music biz? black distributers?
>even black "successes" like puffy
>and master p got white
>bosses.

master p does NOT have a white boss.

priority distributes records that P's label creates. if priority refuses to distribute it, P can take the record elsewhere (as he did with the Skull Duggery album, took it to Tommy Boy).

Priority has no say at all in No Limit's marketing decisions. The main reason why P's videos look so cheap is probably because he's paying for them out of his own pocket and cutting corners (because he realizes he can sell as many records with a $100,000 video as a lot of rappers sell with a $1 million video).

Spread love,

Spirit

http://www.theamphibians.com - where some OKP called Radiohead "wrist slitting music", another OKP typed from the first person of a pair of panties to dis some girl, and yet another OKP confessed that she had fondled Amphibian Joe Villa while he was sleeping. Come join the insanity...

http://www.crookedlettaz.com (my Jacktown potnas...get krunk over there, man...their upcoming compilation LP features Ras Kass, Pimp C, Fiend, Noreaga, and more...it's trill, go check it if you ain't a busta, it ain't nothing but audio snippets and a Pen and Pixel cover, straight ghetto )

(ps: if you have to consider whether you may or may not be a busta, you're a busta...ha)

"Spread Love" video show: the best in underground live performances and videos, Mondays at 10:30pm, Fridays at 9:30pm, Channel 25 (District Cablevision), Channel 10 (Starpower)

Butterfly Dragons EP coming soon
KHEMystery EP coming soon

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

Star athletes in the major pro sports out-earned their coaches and GM's. KG: 20 mill a year. Ray Allen: 14 mil a year. Deion Sanders gets outrageous contracts. Plus endorsements they get as a result of being so skilled at the game. And, since we were talking about artists, not label heads (doesn't Dre own part of Aftermath?), then the comparison stil stands. Labels are akin to owners, Players are akin to artists.

Moreover, Eminem IS putting on his all black crew, blew up Royce and got him the opportunity to write The Message for Dre's album, plus making shitloads of money for Dre, sooo I think his success helps more blacks directly than it does whites. Whether he has "oppressor" roots or not, he's definitely done more for the genre and its artists are far as aiding careers and keeping musical integrity than say....will smith, and he's black, right?

Nuff said. Reload and try again.


AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

Not sure I follow all of your post, but let me ask you this: Where do the millions for the athletes come from? It's about supply and demand. If you want to get more viewers/fans, you have to pay star athletes more. Do you think anyone is borrowing the money to pay the athletes? No -- they're paid a tiny amount of what the franchise earns. Who owns the franchise? Um, not Black people.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

1. Star athletes out-earn nearly everyone in management except owners. If it's about money, and the workers out-earn their managers..... that's not only impressive but a novelty vis a vis most industries. IN Short many black players get paid more than their white GM's and coaches.

2. Compare owners to labels. Since Em was brought up as an artist, it is most relevant to compare him to sports players. Since Koala and JustLisa never brought up labels, owners aren't pertinent to the analogy anyway.

3. Eminem has done more for black people in the industry than many of his platinum counterparts of the darker hue. So, despite his "oppressor" status, he's helped out the "chosen race" of hip-hop to the point calling him exploitative or destructive seems moronic.

does that help any?



AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

>1. Star athletes out-earn nearly everyone
>in management except owners. If
>it's about money, and the
>workers out-earn their managers..... that's
>not only impressive but a
>novelty vis a vis most
>industries. IN Short many black
>players get paid more than
>their white GM's and coaches.

The point is there arent many Black coaches. The analogy was presented as a "whites" man's game in the attempt to show that Blacks had achieved some sense of notoriety in it- but the fact remains the the HIGHEST positions available the positions of AUTHORITY are still largely unavailabel to Blacks DESPITE the proportion of Blacks performing in the sports industry.

but you dont want to deal with that- hey they make more money they oughta be sassified

>2. Compare owners to labels. Since
>Em was brought up as
>an artist, it is most
>relevant to compare him to
>sports players. Since Koala and
>JustLisa never brought up labels,
>owners aren't pertinent to the
>analogy anyway.

Im glad you realize that- as a player Eminem at most would be up for a trade.

>3. Eminem has done more for
>black people in the industry
>than many of his platinum
>counterparts of the darker hue.

Thats just plain ludicrous- who the hell are you talking about when you make statements like this. Dont say Puffy, Dont say Will Smith, Dont even say the Wu-Tang clan. I mean damn the boy can freestyle but this idea that he is doing something for Black people just cuz he put on 12 of his boys is insulting.

>So, despite his "oppressor" status,
>he's helped out the "chosen
>race" of hip-hop to the
>point calling him exploitative or
>destructive seems moronic.

Its moronic to think that helping 12 Black people is enough to make him a hero. Thats RIDICULOUS and this is just the nonsense we're talking about- Wu Tang had twice that much when they were on the box.

>does that help any?

about as much as Slim Shady helps Black people.

K

"I mean damn the boy can freestyle but this idea that he is doing something for Black people just cuz he put on 12 of his boys is insulting."

very good point.

Its just that some of eminem's peers are funding food drives, and buying housing projects, motivating major militant movements like Uhuru, inspring activism and cooperative effort, opening rec centers and struggling to maintain urban bookstores- thats helping.

All we can give Em credit for is for doing some ish that he's supposed to do; he got successful so he put his crew on- anything less would make him a punk- the fact that he lived up to his obligation is admirable but certainly not heroic.

"thats what ya supposed to do- whatdoya want- a cookie!?" - Chris Rock

Em has done more for black people than his darker hued counterparts!!??

I mean come on. Every black artist in the industry has put a bunch of black people on in some way if only their cousin Pookie working security. Em puts on 12 black people (and I'm using "put on losely here) and all of a sudden he's the NAACP, UNCF or some shit? When Master P's probably hired quadruple that and has given MILLIONS to educate black children?

Labels are
>akin to owners, Players are
>akin to artists.

So in this case- the analogy for Eminem would still make him a rookie- not a legend.

>Moreover, Eminem IS putting on his
>all black crew, blew up
>Royce and got him the
>opportunity to write The Message
>for Dre's album, plus making
>shitloads of money for Dre,
>sooo I think his success
>helps more blacks directly than
>it does whites.

Yeah thats why you see them on the cover of Teen People right along with Eminem- oh no you don't oops guess there's not enough rrom for his crew on the cover- thanks for the help Shady!

>Whether he
>has "oppressor" roots or not,
>he's definitely done more for
>the genre and its artists
>are far as aiding careers
>and keeping musical integrity than
>say....will smith, and he's black,
>right?

This is simply preposterous- Will Smith has provided a variety of Hip Hop classics and customs for the Hip Hop culture- over the course of a decade. He did it without cursing and without shocking. While I dont generally listen to his music he has a very stable and necessary place in Hip Hop music and always has- he provides an alternative listening choice to more than just one group (whites) who wouldnt dare buy a Hip Hop album (but that slim shady guy is sooooooo cute but also to mothers and children who should be very much engaged in Hip Hop culture. If you want to compare I think Eminem is at a loss- Will can rhyme with profanity - ANYBODY CAN - could Eminem do without NOPE- and ive seen him try!


>Nuff said. Reload and try again.

I certainly hope you've got more than this- you're shooting blanks.

K

> If you
>want to compare I think
>Eminem is at a loss-
>Will can rhyme with profanity
>- ANYBODY CAN - could
>Eminem do without NOPE- and
>ive seen him try!

I've heard Eminem radio freestyles where he rhymes without cursing. And he comes off much doper than Will _off the top_.

That said, I don't understand what all this argument is about. This is OkayACTIVIST. Are any of you planning on DOING anything? Sparking a boycott, writing some letters? If not, what's all the talking for?

Spread love,

Spirit

http://www.theamphibians.com - where some OKP called Radiohead "wrist slitting music", another OKP typed from the first person of a pair of panties to dis some girl, and yet another OKP confessed that she had fondled Amphibian Joe Villa while he was sleeping. Come join the insanity...

http://www.crookedlettaz.com (my Jacktown potnas...get krunk over there, man...their upcoming compilation LP features Ras Kass, Pimp C, Fiend, Noreaga, and more...it's trill, go check it if you ain't a busta, it ain't nothing but audio snippets and a Pen and Pixel cover, straight ghetto )

(ps: if you have to consider whether you may or may not be a busta, you're a busta...ha)

"Spread Love" video show: the best in underground live performances and videos, Mondays at 10:30pm, Fridays at 9:30pm, Channel 25 (District Cablevision), Channel 10 (Starpower)

Butterfly Dragons EP coming soon
KHEMystery EP coming soon

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

>Star athletes in the major pro
>sports out-earned their coaches and
>GM's. KG: 20 mill a
>year. Ray Allen: 14
>mil a year. Deion Sanders
>gets outrageous contracts. Plus endorsements
>they get as a result
>of being so skilled at
>the game.

and your point would be?- that's a situation that's devoid of color- the scenario you described is across the board.

And, since we
>were talking about artists, not
>label heads (doesn't Dre own
>part of Aftermath?), then the
>comparison stil stands. Labels are
>akin to owners, Players are
>akin to artists.
>
>plus making
>shitloads of money for Dre,

Um, it's called being signed to a label and that label reaping the benefits of taking a chance on you. . .again, that's not at issue here - same holds true for owners- everybody gets put on but at who's initial expense?


Whether he
>has "oppressor" roots or not,
>he's definitely done more for
>the genre and its artists
>are far as aiding careers
>and keeping musical integrity than
>say....

He's definitely done more? But HOW?????????????????????????? Wow, that sort of sounds like those Roots cats. 7 albums and countless careers later nobody's arguing that they HAVEN'T "blown up".

But the for sake of your argument- there have been others Cash Money, RockaFella, No Limit, Puffy, etc. but "integrity" doesn't come to mind when I think of these cats, just the Bling, Bling. They're reasonably succesful and many would argue that some aspects of their shyt adds "musical integrity" to the hip hop community (one man's trash is another man's treasure). But guess what? They still can't touch Em's apparent mainstream appeal, even though he's not the most wholesome boy around.

And about Em's "musical integrity" and pending proteges- you really think he could give two shyts about putting others on for the sake of anything else but spreading his wings and taking a shot at becoming a hip-hip mogul? Artistic integrity my azz. . he shouldn't be expected or obligated to, but that's more Dre' than anybody else- hell he don't even give a damn about his own family - it's all about him . . .I'm sure he'll tell you that.

Yup he's got some shyt in the works but don't think for a sec it ain't all about him, he could form a group of misfits, and they could skyrocket just based upon HIS merits alone (he's going to be IN the group, correct?)- that's how large he is now.

And lastly, any positive residual effects on the hip-hop community, as a result of Eminem's success, are happenstance. (again, SO NOT THE ISSUE). Do you think he set out to accomplish this? Not just no but HELL NO! (once again, nor should he be expected to) he just wanted to be heard just like the next man.

>Nuff said. Reload and try again.

Take your own advice.
>
>
>

>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

"Yup he's got some shyt in the works but don't think for a sec it ain't all about him, he could form a group of misfits, and they could skyrocket just based upon HIS merits alone (he's going to be IN the group, correct?)- that's how large he is now. "

Thats not really true- I just saw D12 live and Eminem was nowhere in site. Ive been at ground zero and Em's loyalty to his Detroit crew is unfadable- he's had to set out and accomplish some other stuff but whenever possible- rap city, mtv awards, SNL (i think)-he's had at leats some members of D12 with him; he most certainly talks about it every chance he gets it.

Dont get EM all wrong- he got a lucky break and it swelled his head a little but he realizes that his integrity lies in what D12 can accomplish and he wont be cutting them loose anytime soon.

as you said- Em could be successful with any group of guys on his name recognition alone- the Outsidaz already have name recognition and Em has been down with them almost as long nonetheless he's rollin in with the same crew he's been rolling with for the last five years.

make no mistake D12 are Eminem's boys in every sense of the word.
its not a ploy- thats about as real as ive seen him get.

K

Coaches & GMs are employees just like the players.

Did the players out earn the owners? I don't think so.

Your analogy is flawed in that sense.
>
>Whether he has "oppressor" roots or not, he's definitely done >more for the genre and its artists are far as aiding careers
>and keeping musical integrity than say....will smith, and he's black, right?

What are you talking about? What has Eminem done for the genre that Will Smith hadn't 20 about 10 years ago. Will Smith is not my taste but he is definetly right in line with the foundation/traditions of hip hop music.

These guys insist that Will Smith is a "fluke" in the Hip Hop game. I tried to tell them that Will Smith has been in the game longer than Eminem will ever last (get it?) but either they dont know or dont care.

K

ARE YOU WHITE? No one is bitching or whining and the thread was obviously not that half-baked, it's gotten more replies then most of the ones on here the first place here. All I wanted was intelligent discussion. Responses replete with sarcasm and insutlts does not bode well as an example of your ability to engage in intelligent discourse. . .leave the personal shyt out of it. You'd think I personally attacked you or something. I just wanted to try my hand out at a Activist for a change. . .is that alright with you?

Anyway, listen, I hear what you're saying and YOUR'E STILL WRONG (or at the very least I disagree). . .I got it the first time. . .your argument was just wack. Mentioning Tiger, Venus & Serena in your original response was just as useless as mentioning MJ. They are ALL at the absolute top of their game and can't be fucked with by any race, black, white, red, purple or green! Will Smith is a fluke and you know what? Most would say his success is solely based upon the fact that "they" like him. . .he's the exception, not the rule. . .Blacks don't support Will all like that- so now what?

Consider yourself understood but disagreed with, we are on opposite ends on the spectrum on this one.


"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and thinking it has meant nothing"- me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

Y'all are like parents- you just dont understand... that guy isnt a fluke he's been in the game alot longer than A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE.

Its not just "they" who like him- its some of US who dont want to hear about rape, masogeny, profanity, violence and homosexuality- believe me there are quite a few fans in his favor.

My mother likes Will Smith, I bet you yours does too- is he a fluke no he uses very customary Hip Hop traditions- customs that precede shock value and pop media bashing.

He has remained consistent and successful for a long time now- and I bet you at the end of the game Eminem will only be able to lay came to less than a quarter of Will Smith's legacy.

Parent's just dont Understand
Summertime?
Girls aint nuthin but trouble?
Fresh Prince of Bel Air?
I think I can beat Mike Tyson?

Name ONE Eminem song that people will remember in ten years- much less play at a party.

K

I like Will as a comedic and sometimes serious thespian but when it comes to his musical choices and lyrical content he should commence to the activity of a pedestria I know, corny as hell, but you know what I mean!

The ONE song I like and will always love is Summertime and I like the VIDEO for M.I.B.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

That only applies to a very recent inception of Will Smith's career.

At the start- parent's dont understand and the whole he's the dj album was appreciated for their comedic value but not percieved as much of a novelty as it would be today.

When alot of the people aorund here were coming up the Fresh Prince helped realize the idea that Hip Hop could represent the people and the party but sacrfice profanity and abrasiveness for the sake of wider distribution- while today that premise might be seen as selling out- back then it easily relied on the tradition of Hip Hop that was more thoroughly rooted in making the party happen. Ask the Fat Boys- ask Biz Markie - ask Dougie Fresh; these guys werent hyperintellectual- they were known to make the party live.

People front on Will nowadays- it wasnt always like that.

The vibe brought to you by Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff paved the way for alot of ish- (which is more than i can say for Eminem) the likes of Kid N Play, Salt N Pepa, even later on down the line the Roots.

It was several years down the line when Hip Hop swore that it had to be hard- it tried its damndest to polarize pop media interest by being as abrasive as possible (much to our chagrin it backfired- and they wanted it even more) and as a result Will had to resort to other venues to get his career on. Then people wanted to front like he wasnt there from the start. Dont be like that.

Will Smith was that ish that shorties could listen to without Moms breakin your tapes- those same shorties are bringing you the hottest Hip Hop music out today.

Despite the fact that Will Smith's legacy is highly misrepresented he will still remain in the context of Hip Hop history leagues moreso than Eminem.

K

I think its an age thing.

sad but true- Im not tryin to be a hip hop grouch but damn, I hope we dont go on thinking that Will Smith didnt mean anything to Hip Hop- thats just not true.

i mean most people didn't but my point is that they come at hip hop from a whole different perspective.

This is the reason why you have this whole backpack vs. thug mentality in the first place. backintheday I didn't think twice about liking Xclan AND Kool G, y'dig.

for anybody to say that Eminem did more for hip hop (or is more hip hop - whatever that means) than the Fresh Prince after 3 albums is just crazy. There's no point in continuing the conversation.

the idea that he's "done more for Black people" that was too much-

I couldnt let the conversation end without checking stuff like that.

you know me

K

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>ARE YOU WHITE? No one is
>bitching or whining and the
>thread was obviously not that
>half-baked, it's gotten more replies
>then most of the ones
>on here the first place
>here.

@Why does it matter if I am white or not? And the number of responses doesn't necessarily determine whether or not a post is half-baked, especially when someone can post "white people shouldn't listen to hip-hop" or "Light skinned girls are bitches" and get 80 responses telling him/her he/she's a moron.



All I
>wanted was intelligent discussion.
>Responses replete with sarcasm and
>insutlts does not bode well
>as an example of your
>ability to engage in intelligent
>discourse. . .leave the personal
>shyt out of it.
>You'd think I personally attacked
>you or something. I
>just wanted to try my
>hand out at a Activist
>for a change. . .is
>that alright with you?

@Who said it was personal? You said my shit was flawed, I said your shit was half-baked. I don't remember calling you a bitch or anything. Refresh my memory if you will, but just because I attack your argument doesn't mean I'm trying to assassinate your character. I didn't take anything you said personal. And for another thing, why in the world would you think you need my permission to post in Okay Activist? Or, were you being sarcastic and thereby showing what you call a lack of ability to participate in intelligent discussion........


>Anyway, listen, I hear what you're
>saying and YOUR'E STILL WRONG
>(or at the very least
>I disagree). . .I got
>it the first time. .
>.your argument was just wack.
> Mentioning Tiger, Venus &
>Serena in your original response
>was just as useless as
>mentioning MJ. They are
>ALL at the absolute top
>of their game and can't
>be fucked with by any
>race, black, white, red, purple
>or green!

I'm not sure if you've heard the word "satire" before. From your responses to my thread the concept does seem a bit foreign to you. See, being that my response was what we call satire, I don't actually believe Michael Jordan should be ashamed of himself for succeeding in a white sport, nor do I think Tiger Woods should retire. I was hoping that the suggestion of inserting Vince Carter instead of MJ in my original post would help clarify things for you. Apparently not, because you're still wasting energy on attacking what you think is an analogy but was really more of a parody. Hyperbole can also be a part of satire, as in "A Modest Proposal" and even "Doonesbury". I mean, I hope you didn't think that the creators of those works actually advocated child abuse and thought that the President of a certain time period were invisible. It was more that the usage of this vehicle poked fun at an underlying, real flaw in the subject of the satire Ergo, Tiger and MJ can be looked at as part of the hyperbole I employed while typing the satire. The underlying flaw in your argument is where you state your indignance that, although Em has undeniable skill, you take umbrage with the fact he is successful from a sales standpoint and spotlight his racial background vis a vis the background of the inventors in Hip-Hop.

In my original post, I chose black athletes that had undeniable skill, well....hopefully you get the point by now.

Oh, by the way, there's this girl, about the same age as the Williams sisters, has about 5 Grand Slam singles titles, more Venus and Serena have combined, but gets, and has gotten a lot less press coverage over the same 4 year time period. Not that I'm saying they won't be greater in temrs of titles won eventually, but they're not even the most decorated of their age group, FYI.......

Anyway, to assign Eminem's success solely to his whiteness is myopic, especially because there are other proven factors of high record sales at work in his case. The fact you did not address any of them makes your original post flawed.

The other factors are:

1. Dre's proven track record at producing hit singles and platinum albums.

2. The fact that controversy, regardless of the race of the emcee, is known to boost record sales, as proven by NWA and 2 Live Crew.

3. The fact homosexuality is more socially acceptable now, as evidenced by positive/sensitive media coverage such as the Entertainment Weekly "Hooray for Gays" issue. Ergo, lyrics that criticize homosexuals are now more likely to make you a pariah than they were when NWA came up. This is why Ice Cube saying "dumbass hooker ain't nothin but a dyke" and Axl Rose wearing the AIDS kills fags dead T-shirt got less coverage relative to the current coverage of Em's and Allen Iverson's lyrics using anti-homosexual slurs.

4. MTV loves Dre with a passion. The fact Dre appeared in Em's first 2 videos helped make Em an established star.

5. Whiteness alone does not guarantee record sales. This is why House of Pain and Jesse James fell off, and why 3rd Bass was never the top selling group of their era or even on their label.


Second, if your issue is with less skilled rappers succeeding while the more talented struggle, why in the world would you use someone you concede has undeniable skill as an example. Clearly Cash Money, Nelly, PUffy and Big Willie are all better examples in terms of artists with less talent and/or less musical integrity than Eminem, as far as sub-par rhymes, ghostwriting, and jacking beats. The fact you ignored artists who lack skills yet still go platinum made your argument weaker, because, at the point you concede someone has skill, YOU imply they deserve success.

When I see someone with skill go platinum, I'm happy because it means that at least some quality hip-hop has met with success. I was happy about The Roots selling 800,000, even though they did it off the strength of the worst single they've ever released and replaced Jill Scott conveniently with the more radio/video friendly Erykah Badu. The point was, at least a group with skill was getting some financial success. I don't particularly enjoy "The Light" either, but I'm happy that Common achieved gold success and got MTV run off it. Would I have preferred that the aforementioned artists had blown up off better material, like "Clones" and "I Used to Love HER"? Yes, but the fact that they succeeded and are actually talented makes me happy enough, just as the fact I don't think either of the singles do them justice doesn't bug me enough to complain about it. The fact Em blew up means I'm guaranteed to turn on TRL and hear a talented emcee rip it for a change. That's a good thing. I think De La should sell at least 800,000 everytime out and that they're better than the Roots, but that doesn't mean I'll make a post at how blatant ?uest and co.'s success is. If you got skill and you blow up, good. If you're wack and you blow up, I hope you fall off. But it seems silly to point at a legimately skilled emcee and complain about success when there are much worse acts out there that will prove your point. If you were soooo bent on including whiteness in the discussion, you should have picked LFO and they're wack-ass "Summer Girls" bullshit. There were better examples, and you failed to choose them.

So that's why your argument was flawed to begin with. I mean by that construct, you could say "Dammit Black Thought's worse than Common on the mic. Common deserves the 800,000 sales, while Roots only deserve gold. Yeah, they're both skilled, but Com deserves it more." I mean, at that point it's more crabs in a barrel mentality than constructive. As if there's only one spot for a skilled emcee among the ranks of gold and platinum status............

I thought the point of being a hip-hop fan is to support good hip-hop, monetarily or otherwise. So I would never attack an emcee that's good, rather, I'd hope he'd use his fame to make sure other skilled emcee's make it to the same plateau.




Will Smith
>is a fluke and you
>know what? Most would
>say his success is solely
>based upon the fact that
>"they" like him. . .he's
>the exception, not the rule.
>. .Blacks don't support Will
>all like that- so now
>what?

Sure: so is Puff, so was MC Hammer, so was Ma$e, so is Nelly, so is Juvenile, so is...you get the point. There are a lot of wack rappers that get love from MTV; WIllie has/had plenty of company so....as far as fluke status goes...you must have more flexible standards than I'm used to..........

Looks, there are plenty of white peeps that bought Tribe and De La too. I know a lot of them personally. So it's not only about the race of the people copping it. I mean, when ?uest and Com say white peeps outnumber the black at their shows, now what? Look blacks support good shit and bad shit, so do whites. When I was at Spitkicker and the crowd was capacity in a 2,000 people venue, I was just happy it was filled, regardless of the fact that it was at least 60% white. Anyway, since Willie's now officially sold out and wack and reliant on Nas and others to write his rhymes, and he gets all these "White" sales, isn't he still a better person to single out as a bastion of wackness then Em, who you admit has skills?

>
>Consider yourself understood but disagreed with,
>we are on opposite ends
>on the spectrum on this
>one.

I mean, there's very little to disagree with being that my original post was a satire. I don't really think MJ should be ashamed. Really, it's been fun arguing with you and Koala while you were clueless, but now that I've showed you the light, discussion should pretty much be over.



AIM: nichet00

"Even when I say nothing, it's a brilliant use of negative space" El-P


Raeshika: i bought slum used today
Raeshika: returned it 3 hrs later.
nichet00: ha ha
nichet00: that should go in my sig
nichet00: putting it in now


And your uninformed, whiny-assed, crybaby opinion would be?

www.myspace.com/inthecompanyoftinmen

...backwards.

Look whatever literary utility you used the analgous comparison of Eminem with Venus and Serena Williams (olympic medalists) and Tiger Woods (not just undenied but undisputed champion) and Michael Jordan (who is unilaterraly considered a legend) is way off. You brought Vince Carter and whoever else in to balance your preposterous statements nonetheless the property of experience still bears Eminem out at a loss.

Your argument is flawed for exactly those resons (and more) yet you insist on avoiding direct challenges made to your position.
Instead you bore us- with insulting essays on hyperbole and literary custom despite the fact that even if you are using parody- your ish still doesnt hold much weight.

Anyway- no matter who is slighted by the glory of the Williams' sisters the fact the remains that Eminem is neither on their level comparitively or even on the level of the girl you mentioned.

In any case- has the girl you mentioned won any olympic medals? Did she compete in the olympics?

No one assigned Emeniem's success "solely" to his race- maybe if you stopped looking up big words like "myopic" you'd have the time to actually read the things you respond to. Not just respond to ideas that youd like to oppose- but havent really been offered. The other factors are irrelevant- no one said Em didnt have skill in fact that has been offered many times.

The fact is Eminem's skill is not undeniable (there is no Emcee who can boast such a thing) the fact that you insist it is the case from no more than three albums is proof of what Lisa has been trying to say all along. While I can say Eminem has talent- to say that his accomplishments are undeniable or even impressive is a major overtstatement.


You candor is weak and unqualified- it hasnt been fun, its been a chore to watch you disregard direct challenges to your argument only to rely on the idea that you're right especially since your representations of opposing arguments are exaggerated and inaccurate. The discussion is over not cuz you showed us any light- but because you have yet to say anything that wasnt eliminated from the start.

K

"Michael Jordan was unarguably the ABSOLUTE pennacle of Basketball in his hey day. . .EMINEM IS NOT. I can name ten artists who are at least as good or better who haven't had 1/16 of his success, so now what?"


Eminem may not be the 'absolute pinnacle' of hip-hop as Michael Jordan was and always will be to basketball, BUT the reason that you say you can name 10 artists who are at least good or better than Em who haven't had 1/16 of his success is all due to one man, one name...DR. DRE. People are always complaining that Ras Kass is just as good if not better than Em, but you know what, Eminem has Dre. Sure the good Dr. may have produced A track or two for Ras, but he's done TWO Eminem albums. He's got Dre, that's the difference right there. So please don't get mad at Mr. Mathers because Dr. Dre signed him to Aftermath. I don't believe he's at fault for that at all. I guarantee you Rakim will see sales like he's never seen before now that he's on Aftermath, plain and simple.

Give me my golf back!

"Passport Stamped up, water in the
fridge all iced up..." No Money
Records coming soon...

Vince Carter ranks 4th in the NBA for points scored- he's been in the league for 2 seasons. Led all rookies in 1998-99 in scoring and blocked shots, ranked 3rd in assists (3.0 apg) and double-doubles (6), 4th in rebounds (5.7 rpg), 5th in steals (1.10 spg), 6th in field-goal percentage and 8th in free-throw percentage (.761). Named the winner of the 1998-99 Schick Rookie of the Year Award, and was a unanimous selection to the 1998-99 Schick All-Rookie First Team, after leading the Raptors in scoring (18.3 ppg), blocked shots shots (1.54 bpg, 16th in the NBA) and field-goal percentage (.450)

Shaquille O'neal has been in the league for 8 seasons. Selected after junior season by Orlando Magic in first round (first pick overall) of 1992 NBA Draft. ... Signed as free agent by Los Angeles Lakers (July 18, 1996). Member of gold-medal-winning U.S. Olympic team (1996). ... Orlando Magic all-time leading rebounder with 3,691 and all-time blocked shots leader with 824 (1992-93 through 1995-96). ...and led the NBA in scoring and field goal percentage last season.


To Eminem's credit he came in second at the 97 Rap olympics.


are you seriously saying there is a comparison?

K

THUG $hit ~~~> http://members.blackplanet.com/Isa_Sabur/

"imma die wit my rollie on" - Ma$e

Very good analogy. However, the thread, I believe, responds to the fact that Eminem as skilled as he is primarily kept successful because he is a white kid doing what is unexpected of a white artist. Therfore, certain people, at least some of the people I know are quicker to run out and buy his music, stuck on stupid that it is a white dude saying this stuff when a lot of it has been said before by other artists of color. On the other hand, personally I don't know anybody who gave props to Michael Jordan simply because he was a black dude excelling in a white-originated sport. Can anybody tell me who created basketball? I never read that information. Furthermore, I don't take anything away from Eminem. I own a lot of his music and yes his underground stuff is better.

Also, a little off the point; it appears to me that the majority of hip hop consumers, although created by urban Blacks, are white people just as the majority of basketball fans in my eyes are blacks while it itself was created by whites. Myself and a friend of mine that is Asian were b-boying before a party at a college and some black dudes nearby were saying at me (not really to me) that breakdancing is for white people and that I'm trying to be white if I do it. My point is that I don't have a problem at all with other people taking part in something that their people didn't create. My problem begins when people take the credit away from it's originator(s) by highlighting the new school persons taking part in it. For example: people who think whites shouldn't play basketball, those dudes at the college, etc. With educating yourself on the truth, these discrepencies can be straightened out easier. Peace, Power, Life

-espeynomortalmancantestme.ivc

"I don't hate players, I hate the mayors. And the police commissioners, governors, and senators; turning my people into junkies and prisoners." - Stic (Dead Prez)

>on.
>
>Enter: One Eminem- setting records, garnering
>worldwide attention, fortune and fame
>almost overnight. Is it
>a phenomenon or the same
>old sad song? That
>a Caucasion (albeit talented) but
>still Caucasion can come on
>the scene (a scene that
>has historically been demoninated by
>African-Americans and other minorities) and
>rob others of what they've
>worked so hard to achieve
>all these years. For
>example: Q-Tip recently disclosed
>in an interview that one
>year(I think after Low End)
>he barely cleared $30,000!
>How can this be? That
>may be a bad example
>because ATCQ was not considered
>as mainstream as the now
>*gasp* infamous Cash Money &
>No Limit squads (they're paid
>too but haven't garnered nearly
>as much attention and reverence
>as Mr. Mathers!)
>
>It has been surmised that the
>overwhelming majority of CONSISTENT hip-hop
>consumers are young, caucasion teens?
> So, they've supported "us"
>too, right? So somebody
>please explain this. . .when
>is it going to end?
>And what can we do
>to help elevate the status
>of say, culturally uplifting and
>conscientous acts such as The
>Roots, De La & Outkast?

it will never end. it might not be the in thing in some years time but there will still be caucasians supporting hip hop. culturally uplifting? please just give me an emcee that am feeling and has skills. some people listen to music for entertainment reasons, nothing more nothing less


------------------
mE AKA joe1192

who is Jill Scott?
-------------------

I think that hip hop is not appreciated by all as a culture, however, ‘just a way of expression.’ If you go back to the early days of the hip hop culture, it was a way to bring our minds up from depressive thoughts, and through that came a unique form of expression. It wasn’t initially to look good, make money, or sound the best, it was about telling a story and being heard locally. Now, if a person is claiming to represent hip hop without having respect for the culture and its history, then they are merely blind sighted by the purpose for it. I think groups like Cash Money Millionaires, Lil’ Kim, etc. are being to commercialized with hip hop, as anyone else who is just doing it solely for the money and fame. But for the cats out there who is using it as a positive tool, whether it’s to elevate just themselves, or their entire community, then I support their efforts.


Natural Black Earth

The fact that he is white & it has a lot to do with it if you want to believe it or not. I use to work in a record store and when that Em dropped it was a lot of white people buying it. Probably some who swore up and down they didn't like rap,but as soon as Em. dropped they was up on it. My point is Em was supported by white community partly b/c he is and the other part is cause of his talent that is why he sold with out the white people buying it he wouldn't have made to where he did he wouldn't get air play on alternative stations. How many black artist do you know that happens too. Many would compare Em and Canibus do you see him with the same success and they are equally talented. Color affects a lot. Our society is getting better, but this is a prime example of race playing a major role.








"Why do women want to be equal to men when they are already vastly superior,"~George Bernard Shaw

"Too old for the games, too young for the stress,"~Erica Swanigan


PEACE & BLESSINGS

And, IMO, this is the crux of the matter regarding Eminem. The fact is that he's more successful than other hip hop artists BECAUSE of his race.

Want proof? Today I heard his new single on the radio. It was on KNRK, the local "alternative" station. Guess how often black hip hop artists have been played on this station? Something in the area of NEVER. Does getting played on a popular radio station make you more successful? Well, I doubt it hurts.

Fact is there are boundaries set up that work against black artists, and just how racist these constructs are is often illustrated in the cases of white hip hop artists like Em, Beasties, Vanilla Ice, etc., and how they're treated by radio, tv, and the rest of the media. I've never heard anyone say Eminem is to blame for the institutional racism that exists within the music industry, but is he benefiting from it? I think that much is obvious.

peace,
murph

peace,
murph

>The fact that he is white
>& it has a lot
>to do with it if
>you want to believe it
>or not. I use to
>work in a record store
>and when that Em dropped
>it was a lot of
>white people buying it. Probably
>some who swore up and
>down they didn't like rap,but
>as soon as Em. dropped
>they was up on it.
>My point is Em was
>supported by white community partly
>b/c he is and the
>other part is cause of
>his talent that is why
>he sold with out the
>white people buying it he
>wouldn't have made to where
>he did he wouldn't get
>air play on alternative stations.
>How many black artist do
>you know that happens too.
>Many would compare Em and
>Canibus do you see him
>with the same success and
>they are equally talented. Color
>affects a lot. Our society
>is getting better, but this
>is a prime example of
>race playing a major role.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Why do women want to be
>equal to men when they
>are already vastly superior,"~George Bernard
>Shaw
>
>"Too old for the games, too
>young for the stress,"~Erica Swanigan
>
>
>
>PEACE & BLESSINGS

yes agreed, race plays a major issue but in truth, canibus albums were garbage compared to em
------------------
mE AKA joe1192

who is Jill Scott?
-------------------

But I know, y'all we're feeling him when he was only on mix tapes.

Peace!!!!!!

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////////////////////////////////////////
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My friend (the male nurse): *talking to the screen* B@#CH!!!!!!!

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Doesn't he speak upon the forces at work here....on "I am" wuzn't that the point....
While I'm sure he has no regrets about his success....he laments the fact that he HAS become the "Tiger Woods" of the industry(in some respects)....Not the first on the scene but definitely the most celebrated/heavily promoted....like Tiger however,whose accomplishments are hardly debatable he seems to struggle with the questions posed by his racial/cultural identity.....

Yo I'll admit that when Eminem first came out I couldn't stand him, I mean his lil high pitched voice annoyed the shyt outta me. I just wasn't feelin him when he dropped that first joint, not even when The Marshall Mathers LP dropped. All my friends KNEW I wasn't feelin him but they stilled played him like e'ryday.

But one day he was on and I listened to him, of course the beats are mad phat cuz of Dre but when I actually listened to him, I noticed that the boy does have a lil sumthin sumthin...he's a lil effed up and need THERapy but he's funny as a mofo!...like u at a comedy show listenin to his shyt...now he'll neva take the place for my true hip hop favs like my boyz OUTKAST, GoodieMOb, Common...u get the idea and u see where I'm going with this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why dont I have a quote u ask?....I'm taking donations at the moment, that's right

up until the start of the new millenium (2001 not 2000 folks) this will be the time for yall to get your donations in...if I dont get none..then EFF a quote til I think of something kool and intelligent

For anybody that is still willing to believe that Eminem's success is due to primarily to his skill level lets do a survey of who our impression of skilled emcees might be.

Ill give you mine- But Im willing to bet once we consider everybody else's lists and add in the many many names we've forgotten- Slim Shady will slide quickly down the list.

Common
Mos Def
Talib Kweli
Black Thought
Pharoahe Monche
Method man
Redman
Posdonous
Dave
Malik B
Cannibus
Saukrates
Andre
Jay Z
Q-Tip
ERICK SERMON!!!
Xzibit
Punchline
Wordsworth
the ENTIRE BOOT CAMP CLIK (well OGC is strugglin but still)
BUSTA!?
Rah Digga
Nature
Big L
Guru
Ish (butterfly)
Bahamadia



When you finish- cross out all the artists that HAVENT been on the cover of Teen people.

If you dont know who half those people are- then thats the problem.

:-)

if i know all these..do i get a hip hop medal?


Much love,
Kyle

Surgeon General- DPS...drunk posters society...y'all ain't ready!?!? We soldiers...don't be scurrrrrred

vinyl junkies/cd confitionados...go here
http://www.recordkingdom.com

"i always tell people that fame is
nothing but a good publicist, while
talent is a genuine article..." ~ Pozi

much love,
Kyle

Detroit..Let's GO!!! May 12th Dilla Walk for Lupus...Belle Isle...

http://walk.lupusresearch.org/goto/blackeyedskeez

Even a Dollar can HELP..


http://www.myspace.com/jedikyle
http://www.detroitderbygirls.com/

The medal you would get is nothing compared to the props you get for being down for the cause. I dont care what you know Urb- im impressed by what you do.

You in particular do a lot

(Just wanted you to know that ive noticed)

K

Thurston Howl III
Prodigy
One Man Army
MF Grimm
Rasco
J-Zone
Choclair
Spontaneous
Blackalicious
Dilated Peoples
OC
NAS
Zion I
Roots Manuva
Phife
Pharcyde
Slim Kid Tres (aint that a shame)
Fat Lip (what's up Fat Lip!?)
Masta Ace
Jeru
Lewis Parker
Last Emperor

we could even take it to the European american emcees

Serch
Everlast
Zach De La Rocha

cmon y'alll Eminem has got skills- but he's not the best by far. In fact im reminded that the pinnacle of underground success was coming in at SECOND at the rap olympics in 97. I wish i could be regarded as a champion for second place.

K

>cmon y'alll Eminem has got skills-
>but he's not the best
>by far. In fact im
>reminded that the pinnacle of
>underground success was coming in
>at SECOND at the rap
>olympics in 97. I wish
>i could be regarded as
>a champion for second place.

come on now yourself, k-love, with these lists of emcees and the rap olympics. hestitant to even push this up, I'd have mostly said stuff that nonseq did. not sure how to address the original post, and d-12 is more like half that number anyway.

but what boodaah said in the other post is true, how you get two sets of intelligent discerning listeners and one conveniently forgets eminem's unmistakable skills, while the other can somehow overlook that contentious content.

I'm in the latter group, dude's 'tortured' punk/rock&roll stylings work well for me in a hip-hop context, mainly because I believe eminem to be as gifted as most of the emcees on your lists, definitely holds his own with anybody I've heard.

haven't seen him live but I feel like he's got most other aspects of emceeing covered. and which better-than-good rapper doesn't have a signature style and repeat their themes? but both his albums I have are varied from song-to-song.

and I feel it's a virtue that dr dre verses that are em-penned are blatant from the first bar, be damned if they aren't some of dre's best. eg. 'forget about dre'. and eminem's verse on the same joint? damn, I love a verse that you can hear acapella and still feel the beat pattern, like big boi and black thought often freak it.

basically, I guess it's exactly what eminem says himself, he IS what we each see. if you think he's average, or a weak, corny panderer then perhaps he is. and if he's mega-nice, addressing issues he feels in his own fashion then that's him too.

so he's mega-nice in my world and I wouldn't say he's wasted his skills, rather he got handed the opportunity (and it's doubtful dre would have signed any old white emcee) and stepped to the plate with it.

and in others' worlds slim shady's just fcked up, point blank, so he'll eternally be that. I'm saying, some of his crew are semi-decent and they aren't even approaching eminem yet. whereas, say, royce couldn't/wouldn't be as polarising.

something to be said for my du signature quote but I love that sht in hip-hop too, when you get cats like slim and 2pac that do polarise opinion to such an extent in such a diverse group - cause, taste/hating aside, the sides we take are reflections on ourselves, you know? the way we think..good sht.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

selling millions of records, claiming no responsibilities - humpty hump/digital underground

"but what boodaah said in the other post is true, how you get two sets of intelligent discerning listeners and one conveniently forgets eminem's unmistakable skills, while the other can somehow overlook that contentious content."

How many times have I said that Eminem has got skills- I argue with the idea that his skills are "unmistakable" cuz i think we can all agree that he's made a few.

the point is that as you say he can definitely hold is own- but there is a major media force promoting the idea that he is the pinnacle of rap talent. Dont deny it- look at that list and tell me how many are on the cover of Teen People, how many get play on "rock radio stations". It surprises me that we're still discussing this cuz the most opposing arguments can accomplish is to disregard the fact that Eminem is promoted in sections that STILL dont promote Black artists.

The topic is- how blatant is his success yet and still all opposing arguments have been geared toward propping up supposed contributors to his success; these arguments are major assumptions and wild conjecture.

One fact that can't be denied is that Eminem's image is promoted in a number of media formats that DO NOT support Black artists- despite the fact that there are many that are either more or less controversial depending on whatever image you want to promote. Their are emcees that are better than Eminem, and if Eminem wants to be touted as the best- how come he spends an entire album battling pop stars that cant rhyme back?

You're entitled to think the guy is ill- but he's pickin on Christina Aguilera and gays- thats weak.

K

..I'm more than happy to concede that - guy's skin colour isn't what got my attention but it's part of what conspires to keep him there around the clock, and deprives others of a shot.

truth be told, I thought eminem was hispanic when I first caught him on the radio, slower joint where he jacks redman's line for the hook: 'if you hear a man sounding like me smack him and ask him where the hell did he get his damn raps from.'

that and 'still don't give a fck': 'zonin off of one joint, stopped a limo, hopped in the window, shoppin a demo at gunpoint.' damn..agreed though, the attacks and song formats are getting formulaic.

but one steez I can't get enough of is how they'll start a song without the beat then eminem's rap gets rabid when the drums drop, like they were competing for the bassline - ill everytime.

but I digress lesson-wards..guess your job is done here, koala - another kay-oh. it's the 'blatant' in the question that obscures it for some, clarifies it for others. peace.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

your defeatist attitude'll get you nowhere fast, I tend to my task - del/hieroglyphics

Medusa
THe Coup
Me'Shell Ndgeocello (some would say she isn't an emcee, but ill fight you TOOTH AND NAIL on this one...)

you basically said everyone i was thinking, KoalaLove..if Kyle is getting the gold medal, do i get an honorary one? a gold tinged silver one?? }>


p.s. how have you been lately??

Ryan






No Sig til AFTER my 25th birthday..LIBRAS (October 4th) RUN THIS MOFO, AIIGHT?? ACK LIKE YOU NOW, NAAAAHH!!

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

the fact that his whiteness makes him more marketable to what is labelled mainstream society. of course, we really can't blame him for that and that is not to say that he isn't talented (i personally don't care for him) but i have stood watching from the sidelines as he blew up. you can' tdeny that he is talented and yeah he is rsponsible for his success. BUT don't deny the mediais hand in it and don't forget that in our society white sells in movis and tv shows and even in music. the entertainment industry has been pretty blatant about this. there are a lot of people buying Em becasue they like him but there are also a lot of people buying him because of all the hype. and in the end, not very many controversial blk artists get that hype from such mainstream publications...i would love to see DMX or Flavor Flav on the cover of a teen magazine. i haven't seen that happen in my lifetime and i been a head for a while.

i just think in a society that is run on racial divisions, you can't play colorblind with stuff like this and pretend that it's all about talent. people see color, no matter what they say. teh fact that he is such a high profile white rapper alone makes him stand out. that's my take on it.

If Eminem was Black he'd be about half as popular as Cannibus- on the battel rhyming freestyle tip and even then he'd get hated on cuz of his funny voice.

A major selling point for Em is the fact that he is "white" and CAN rhyme- even though his rhyming doesnt have anything to do with his race- his rap career most certainly does.

If it was all about skill- wouldnt Cannibus be blowing up? wouldnt 50 cent be blowing up?- ok maybe thats a bad example.

K

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

i have two things to say.

one, surely i have better things to do with my time.

two, way too much time has been spent on the tired sports analogies

and now, some questions.

how many 'white' american rappers exist? how many have record deals? how many have had real success? in other words, why has eminem met with so much more success than young black teenagers, or 3rd bass? (any contemporary examples?)

would eminem have sold records without production from dre? has eminem had any singles that weren't extremely well produced pop music? would eminem have met ANY success without commercial music backing him?

btw - how many other rappers have had the longevity of will smith, and are still having hits today? (without thinking too hard about it, i can only think of ll cool j.. i guess de la comes close, but really, how much success have they really had since '3 feet'?) why is the fresh prince so successful?

it's the questions..

s ckzilla

note - please read 'success' in the above post to mean financial success, not necessarily artistic success.

>how many 'white' american rappers exist?

quite a few- do you mean professionally or as far as mainstream media is concerned?

>how many have record deals?

again- this is a vague term... major label we've got Everlast, Eminem, Kid Rock, the Beastie Boys, Vanilla Ice (i think), El-P might count. what about Fred Durst? Blood of Abraham. LFO.

>how many have had real
>success?

All of the above aside from El-P (a major difference is that not many people know who he is- much less that he's White), Blood of Abraham, and LFO. V Ice's success may be cancelled out by his plummet from the top.

>in other words, why
>has eminem met with so
>much more success than young
>black teenagers, or 3rd bass?
>(any contemporary examples?)

the marketting package. None of the other artists youve mentioned were so willfully included among the playlists of radio stations that previously insisted on not playing Hip Hop - and still wont.

>would eminem have sold records without
>production from dre?

A few- not that many; his first album flopped in the local market (people hated on it cuz they said he sounded like AZ) when the Slim Shady EP came out people were becoming interested - when they found out he was "white" it was an interesting novelties for the heads and the icing on the cake for those interested in promoting Eminem (at the time it was a local cat name Mark Bass). Im not saying they wanted to promote a "white" guy- but anybody with sense knows that it is a great angle- they had a "white" guy who could rap thats a bonus.

>has eminem
>had any singles that weren't
>extremely well produced pop music?

Quite a few- but you dont hear about those in tandem with his pop releases. If you watch rap city you might get more of an impression but they produce videos for the mtv market. Unless you keep your ear to the ground you might miss Eminem's more apprciated Hip Hop work.

>would eminem have met ANY
>success without commercial music backing
>him?

commercial music meaning what- no mainstream airplay, no mtv support. Without those and without Dre (the connection to that media) Em would have been on the top of his game in the Rawkus arena- either Game or Rawkus would have put his music out if Aftermath hadnt. Without the overwhelming production monolith of Dre Em would have had to come off with more b-boy, freestyle and lyrical stylings, his emphasis would have to have been versatility and variety. Dre provided a polished template for Em to follow, a uniform that is great for pop media acceptance- but Hip Hop fans are getting tired of it; let's take a look:

intro: gonzo organ sample
cue: announcer or shout out (usually with manipulated soudn effect)
cue: track- Em makes some race reference in the first three lines then precedes to fill in the rest with as much profanity as possible- summing the track up with the notion that he's being defiant in doing so.

remix: change all profane lyrics so that we can play it on alternative radio.

I admit its a good formula- its just not very respectable.

>btw - how many other rappers
>have had the longevity of
>will smith, and are still
>having hits today? (without thinking
>too hard about it, i
>can only think of ll
>cool j.. i guess de
>la comes close, but really,
>how much success have they
>really had since '3 feet'?)

There are a few more- the most prominent (and often overlooked) is Erick Sermon. Slick Rick stalled for a little bit but i dont think his popularity wained. Neither did Biz Markie he's just not doing albums and goofy videos these days. Heavy D- rolled behind the scenes on alot of music production.

> why is the fresh
>prince so successful?

He's courteous to a wide variety of audiences.

>it's the questions..

K