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qoolquest
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10251 posts
Tue Mar-13-01 11:17 PM

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"mmMAMMY?"


          

saw this and i wondered how you'd take this. peep.


Mammy, How We Love You
by Yvonne Durant


There I was one morning, in between freelance copywriting assignments. The Today show had just gone off and it was time for Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, a talk show that deals with the complexity of relationships—basically, who’s getting some and who’s not. Until recently, Cybill Shepherd was the host, along with a panel of experts: a comedian, a doctor and assorted actors who, like me, were in between nothing. I knew Ms. Shepherd’s days were numbered; she never did look comfortable. I always got the feeling she was chanting to herself, “It’s a paycheck, it’s a paycheck.”

Ms. Shepherd has been replaced by Cristina Ferrare, the former model and ex-wife of John DeLorean. Her fellow panelists include a comedian (relationships must be a big joke after all), a doctor, a wiry blonde and a pretty black woman with flowing hair.

The black woman looked familiar. So much so that I initially thought to myself, “Is that …? No. Can’t Be. Well, I’ll be damned! NBC has run out and found its own Star Jones.” Her name is Bo Griffin, a radio talk-show host, and like Ms. Jones, she’s a knockout. A big knockout.

I can imagine the meeting where it all happened ….

First Exec: “This is a good lineup. We have the comedian, the doctor—”

Second Exec: “Yes, that’s great for credibility. And women love Cristina ever since she came out about her loss of libido.”

Third Exec: “Yeah, that was so powerful I think it came back. But we’re missing something. What about an African-American woman? Who’s that gal on ABC?”

First Exec: “Oprah?”

Second Exec: “No-oo, the heavyset, pretty one with all the hair.”

First Exec: “Oh, you mean Star Jones.”

Third Exec: “She’s great—sassy, smart and big. But Star’s busy. Hey, maybe we can find our own.”

Meeting fades, music swells, Al Jolson is shown on one knee, arms outstretched, mouthing “Mammy.”

I wonder about the focus groups. Were the interviewees wired? If so, did the monitoring machine they were hooked up to go haywire and display sharp downturns when the image of a slender black woman came up? Then did it rise at the sight of a heavyset black woman? Did she conjure up warm and loving nanny memories in the interviewees, like the time they rode the bus together and she stood so that her young charge could have the whole seat to herself?

America likes its black women big; it’s the mammy thing. Mammy’s skirts are a part of the fabric of our history to this day. We see it in commercials. The star of a campaign for a pine-scented cleanser is a pretty woman, black with cornrows. She’s large, too. And for 30 seconds, she sasses America into keeping their homes germ-free. The Pine-Sol Lady is definitely the work of some poor numbers cruncher who proved to his colleagues that to reach their target audience, they need a portly black woman. She’ll get the folks disinfecting in no time. Mammy knows best!

Because I’m an advertising copywriter, I’ve sat in on many casting sessions. I remember one for a skin moisturizer; a couple of full-sized white women showed up. It was like, “Is she kidding?” But when a full-sized black woman showed up, there were grins. Acceptance. She didn’t get the part, but it clearly had nothing to do with her weight. No one has a bad thing to say about Mammy.

Black women especially embrace the mammy thing. Black women have a far more positive self-image of their bodies than white women. When I’m with black girlfriends, we don’t talk about our thighs, we like our butts. When you give us a compliment, we take it. We don’t say things like, “You’re kidding, I’m so fat!”

Misses Griffin and Jones probably feel very good about themselves. Unlike their co-hosts, they can enjoy their jobs and not have to worry about gaining weight. No bags of celery and carrot sticks in these girls’ dressing rooms. Star will tell you in a minute that she loves her bacon.

However, the mammy thing bites us on our nice, round butts all the time. A heavy black woman conjures up warmth, safety; she won’t take your man away from you while she’s holding your baby. Star Jones gets to drool over Michael Douglas; Vanessa Williams and Halle Berry get Michael Douglas’ drool all over them. Rhett Butler could tease Mammy about her red slip, but it wouldn’t have been the same if it were Prissy.

I did my own research on mammy worship. I asked one white girlfriend of mine—I thought one white was a fair sampling; 40 million blacks get judged on the behavior of one every day—what she thought about the use of big black women in the media.

“I have to tell you, if I were in the mall and had to leave my children with someone and there were two women nearby, one thin and white, the other heavy and black, I’d leave my kids with the black woman. What’s wrong with that? I’d leave them with a fat white woman, too. I’d choose her over a thin black woman.”

I pointed out to her that she’s thin. Does that make her less of a good mother? After a long moment of silence, she answered, “No, it means I wouldn’t want other people leaving their children with me.” She giggled and signed off, something about picking the kids up. I should add, my dear friend’s home is mammy-free; she actually goes near her children.

She won’t be leaving her kids with me. I’m a small black woman, 107 pounds, certainly not mammy material.

Personally, I have nothing against heavyset black women getting plum jobs on television, and I’m not calling for an end to hiring women built like them. It’s the stereotype that bothers me. Can’t a black woman my size be seen as wise? Can she not impart wisdom, give America a good talking to? Or am I not mammy enough?

Or maybe, in the eyes of whites, I’m not unattractive enough for their comfort. I remember casting little girls for a commercial I’d written. We picked four—three pretty white girls and one pretty black girl. Then the door flung open and a girl bounded into the room. She was black, her hair was a mess and she was righteously funny-looking. Frankly, she looked like a pickaninny. The art director said, “She’s terrific—let’s use her instead of the other one.” The producer looked at me; he knew what I was thinking. Calmly I asked, “Why is it that the white girls get to be pretty, and the one black girl has to be the odd-looking one? Either we go pretty for all or funny-looking for all.” We went for pretty, but not without discussion. If I were not in the room, the funny-looking little one would’ve gotten the gig based on a white person’s point of view of what a little black girl should look like in a mix of white girls.

I’m not in any of those rooms anymore. And I’m certainly not sitting at the table with the big shots at the networks. No, I’m just a writer trying to make a living. And I’m tired. Aren’t you too, Mammy?


back to top










"Jazz is heading down because of the task of acquiring the intellect to further it. The refusal to acknowledge the intellect required to produce the music with each generation gets weaker, because you can’t produce people with the intellect required to defend yourself from the attacks of the ignorant." -wynton marsalis

"Hip Hop is heading down because of the task of acquiring the intellect to further it. The refusal to acknowledge the intellect required to produce the music with each generation gets weaker, because you can’t produce people with the intellect required to defend yourself from the attacks of the ignorant." -?uestlove



check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Somethin to think about definitely......
yall_jusdonno
Mar 13th 2001
1
Sounds like a personal issue n/m
Mar 14th 2001
2
i know i'll...
shmooz
Mar 14th 2001
3
alright...
shmooz
Mar 14th 2001
15
      wtf?
shmooz
Mar 14th 2001
16
RE: mmMAMMY?
Mar 14th 2001
4
uh
tongue
Mar 21st 2001
42
outstanding
Mar 14th 2001
5
RE: outstanding
Mar 14th 2001
17
WTF
Mar 14th 2001
6
i concur.....
Mar 14th 2001
7
RE: WTF
makedax
Mar 17th 2001
38
mammy=selfless image
audiovisuals
Mar 14th 2001
8
RE: mmMAMMY?
Mar 14th 2001
9
a similar phenomenon
Mar 14th 2001
10
So True
k_ysla
Mar 16th 2001
33
there's definitely a contradiction there...
Mar 14th 2001
11
some thoughts
Mar 14th 2001
12
remember Mother Love? n/m
Mar 14th 2001
13
motha' love....
shmooz
Mar 14th 2001
14
      RE: motha' love....
nappyhead earth
Mar 20th 2001
40
hmph
Mar 14th 2001
18
but when ophra was skinny..
Mar 14th 2001
19
but there was just as many blk folk...
Mar 14th 2001
21
RE: but there was just as many blk folk...
Mar 14th 2001
26
a friend of mine said once
Mar 14th 2001
22
one of our many struggles n/m
Isa_Sabur
Mar 14th 2001
20
RE: The only black
Mar 14th 2001
23
I always imagined...
Mar 14th 2001
24
I agree with morpheme
Mar 14th 2001
25
She's confused
Mar 15th 2001
27
can't fuk with HollyWierd
Wise_7
Mar 16th 2001
28
RE: mmMAMMY?
Mar 16th 2001
29
RE: mmMAMMY?
INTELLITRIGUE
Mar 16th 2001
30
interesting...but...
bandigit1
Mar 16th 2001
31
Why? I'll tell you why...
Mar 16th 2001
32
      RE: Why? I'll tell you why...
Lothar
Mar 16th 2001
34
      RE: Why? I'll tell you why...
Lothar
Mar 16th 2001
35
      Very true about the "heat" for sistas....
peacefornow
Mar 17th 2001
37
           RE: Very true about the "heat" for sistas....Scorpion's reply
Mar 20th 2001
39
                It's all gravy
peacefornow
Mar 20th 2001
41
Ehh this is strange
peacefornow
Mar 17th 2001
36

yall_jusdonno

Tue Mar-13-01 11:44 PM

  
1. "Somethin to think about definitely......"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Damn, I got a paper due for my final in Black Women's Film Studies on Thursday, thanks for the topic Quest! You're the greatest!!!

Peace



----------------------------------------



"....I'm Healthy, I'm Alive, I can't complain!!"-Aceyalone

"....Anytime you find someone more successful than you are, especially when you are both engaged in the same business-you know they're doing something you aren't."-Malcom X

"...If we smoked out, Hip Hop gon be smoked out, if we doin aiight, Hip Hop gon be doin aiight...We are Hip Hop, me, you, everybody, WE are Hip Hop, so Hip Hop is goin where we goin... SO THE NEXT TIME YOU ASK YOURSELF WHERE HIP HOP IS GOIN, ASK YOURSELF, "WHERE AM I GOIN? HOW AM I DOIN?"-Mos Def

"...if we can't sit at the table, then let's knock the f**kin legs off!!..."-James Foreman, SNCC

"...I'm used to white people tryna rob us, it ain't no new thing, why don't they try stealin some of this poverty..."-Gil Scott-Heron

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 03:46 AM

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2. "Sounds like a personal issue n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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shmooz

Wed Mar-14-01 03:55 AM

  
3. "i know i'll..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

have to come back for more later but...

i kinda think the writer answered her own questions. the problem is purely in those who make the decisions. she said it herself that if she wasn't in the room then the black girl would've gotten the part. it's sad but that may be how these people think and they're the only ones in the position to make the call.

i don't know how these decision makers think but in my eyes commercials and especially talk shows need people with the right personaly and skills to captivate the audience. sometimes ugly is cute and warm and cute and warm is what people want. i don't think looks are as much an issue when choosing but unfortunately they are. for example look how the media goes nuts everytime oprah gains a little weight.

what's in the media is what's popular and what's popular is what these shows want. but this is a whole other topic. maybe i'll hit this one up more next post.

i hate to cut this off but i am at work...i'll gather my thoughts and return.

peace

shmooz

"i wanna be a pioneer so trails i blaze"

"hip hop you're the love of my life"

  

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shmooz

Wed Mar-14-01 06:54 AM

  
15. "alright..."
In response to Reply # 3


          

shmooz

"i wanna be a pioneer so trails i blaze"

"hip hop you're the love of my life"

  

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shmooz

Wed Mar-14-01 07:10 AM

  
16. "wtf?"
In response to Reply # 15


          

just happened...anyway

after re-reading everyone's comments and the actual piece again, i've decided that...well, there's no one answer that's going to satisfy the situation and make everyone happy. decisions like this are made all day everyday and they're made by one, two or three people. not unanamously by a large group. this is going to sound cliche but it's really not the body that makes the decision...it's the mind. and everyone's minds think different regardless of the body. i'm so sick of the constant remarks made, especially on these boards, that compare different race's views of each other. as much as people like to say we're all eaqual, well, we're not. but it's not racial differences it's personality differences. alright, i'm losing my thoughts. time for lunch!

peace

shmooz

"i wanna be a pioneer so trails i blaze"

"hip hop you're the love of my life"

  

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Shelly
Charter member
15886 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 04:01 AM

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4. "RE: mmMAMMY?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You didn't know America view slim, attractive black women as their sex toy !!!!!!!! You can't have your sex toy offering comfort and advice.Up until Tyra Banks , black models were always made up to be animalistic, sexual. Tyra Banks gave us a non-threatening girl next door type.

Shit happens

  

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tongue

Wed Mar-21-01 05:32 AM

  
42. "uh"
In response to Reply # 4


          

beverly peele?
iman?

animalistic???


  

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paragon216
Charter member
5565 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 04:48 AM

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5. "outstanding"
In response to Reply # 0


          

..don't know exactly what to say about it yet...i read a book called "black feminist thought"..there was a chapter on "mammies, jezebels and welfare mothers"..basically in the eyes of the mainstream black women have to fall into one of those roles...sometimes i look at oprah's show and her success and i think...mammy?..


"fool, Hip-Hop is what I say it is" -- Saul Williams

  

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Introvert
Charter member
151 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 07:10 AM

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17. "RE: outstanding"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>"mammies,
>jezebels and welfare mothers"..basically in
>the eyes of the mainstream
>black women have to fall
>into one of those roles

Let's not forget the black woman "with attitude." I think it's called the Sapphire stereotype.


"Humor is indispensible; it is our most effective tool for insight and understanding as well as our most effective weapon against baseness and stupidity"--Regina Barreca


  

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nappiness
Charter member
1145 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 05:05 AM

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6. "WTF"
In response to Reply # 0


          

WHAT IN THE FUCK
1. why in the hell are we still so consumed with what white folks think about us? fuck white folks and what they think especially white women. instead of asking her white 'girlfriend' why didn't she ask some sistas what they thought? furthermore, Black women ain't monolithic we come in various shape and sizes with various thoughts and personalities. spare me........

2. now if the woman was skinny, then folks would have something to say about that too. they would say, "why do they only choose Black women who look like white women, all skinny and looking malnutritioned".

3. star, even moreso than oprah, is far from being a mammy. star ain't on the view with a big moo-moo on with a white baby hanging from her nipple.

--------sig-----------
Monthly BOOK DISCUSSION in OkayActivist
March 12th pages 1-162
March 26th pages 162-328
Conintelpro Papers by Ward Churchil and Jim Vander Wall

April 24th
The Haunting fo HipHop: a novel by Bertice Berry
GET YO READ ON .........
------------
If U WANNA ACTIVATE, contact ChicagoActivist
Email us: chicagoactivist@africana.com
Check out the website:
http://chicagoactivist.cjb.net/
Call us: 1-312-777-4001 ext 4409
NEXT MEETING TBA
~~~~~~~~~
nappiness is next to Godliness!!!!!!
Ms. Nappiness
----------
http://www.geocities.com/okay_poets/begin.html

---------------
Veronica-Precious
'Moon'

Check out my publishing company
UnSilenced Woman Press
www.unsilencedwomanpress.com


AquaMoon
Aqua Beats and Moon Verses: Volume I
http://www.spokenexistence.com/aqua_moon.html

  

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fatlip
Charter member
1954 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 05:21 AM

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7. "i concur....."
In response to Reply # 6


          

>Can’t a black woman my size be seen as wise?
>Can she not impart wisdom, give America a good
>talking to? Or am I not mammy enough?

existential crisis!!! really, who is she proving all this to?

  

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makedax

Sat Mar-17-01 03:39 AM

  
38. "RE: WTF"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>WHAT IN THE FUCK
>1. why in the hell are
>we still so consumed with
>what white folks think about
>us? fuck white folks
>and what they think especially
>white women. instead of asking
>her white 'girlfriend' why didn't
>she ask some sistas what
>they thought? furthermore, Black
>women ain't monolithic we come
>in various shape and sizes
>with various thoughts and personalities.
> spare me........
>
>2. now if the woman was
>skinny, then folks would have
>something to say about that
>too. they would say,
>"why do they only choose
>Black women who look like
>white women, all skinny and
>looking malnutritioned".
>
>3. star, even moreso than oprah,
>is far from being a
>mammy.

naw, but she got a few million grown white women hangin from HER nipple though.


star ain't on
>the view with a big
>moo-moo on with a white
>baby hanging from her nipple.
>
>
>--------sig-----------
>Monthly BOOK DISCUSSION in OkayActivist
>March 12th pages 1-162
>March 26th pages 162-328
>Conintelpro Papers by Ward Churchil and
>Jim Vander Wall
>
>April 24th
>The Haunting fo HipHop: a novel
>by Bertice Berry
>GET YO READ ON .........
>------------
>If U WANNA ACTIVATE, contact ChicagoActivist
>
>Email us: chicagoactivist@africana.com
>Check out the website:
>http://chicagoactivist.cjb.net/
>Call us: 1-312-777-4001 ext 4409
>NEXT MEETING TBA
>~~~~~~~~~
>nappiness is next to Godliness!!!!!!
>Ms. Nappiness
>----------
>http://www.geocities.com/okay_poets/begin.html


"if you God then save your own, don't mentally enslave your own" - Ceelo

  

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audiovisuals

Wed Mar-14-01 05:25 AM

  
8. "mammy=selfless image"
In response to Reply # 0


          

good post. the mammy back inna day was always the trusted woman to look after the kids, trusted to be around white masters without them being sought after--they were trustworthy because they didn't particularly care about their own physical image.
and you know if you a big woman, people already assume you can cook yo ass off.

i regard the mammy as a beautiful piece of history, and feel it should be incorporated as such. but not so much as a stereotype, because there are plenty of women out there that may have the image, but definately not the likeness. and vice versa: there are beautifully curvacious (sp?) women out there that have that selfless mother love that you just can't live without.

  

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BrooklynRose
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78 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 05:34 AM

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9. "RE: mmMAMMY?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Humor is laughing at what you haven't got when you ought to have it. -- Langston Hughes

Any form of art is a form of power; it has impact, it can affect change--it can not only move us, it makes us move.

media and black women aren't the only group that play into this. black men wouldn't have their black women any other way -- thick. it makes us slim thangs feel ... like we can't measure up sometimes (only sometimes, though).

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 05:42 AM

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10. "a similar phenomenon"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the wise old blackman

(the irony is that in both cases you're likely to find individuals who posssess a whole lot of inbred distain for "them" -- for a number of reasons)

but y'all don't hear me tho

  

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k_ysla

Fri Mar-16-01 02:14 PM

  
33. "So True"
In response to Reply # 10


          

And regardless of what this woman may think whites feel on the issue of a Mammy-type (new one) figure to represent the black race, I am proud of her. She's the symbol of vitality, conscience, strength, wisdom, and sustenance. Truly something to be proud of, no matter what they think.




*Bask in your blackness. You r Beauty. You r strong* Kysla

"Poetry is an echo, asking a shadow to dance." -Carl Sandburg


http://members.blackplanet.com/kysla



  

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morpheme
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94867 posts
Wed Mar-14-01 05:53 AM

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11. "there's definitely a contradiction there..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

on the writer's part...i get the impression that blk women's self esteem is tied into how we are portrayed in the media: they like big...we appreciate ourselves more

now perhaps i'm bein that ol advocate de diablo...but big is how "they" found us...hips/thighs/asses/breasts/& accompanyin stomachs & arms...that is also why "they" wanted us...if they did not...they would've just asked cousin bette to bale the cotton & wetnurse madam's chirren while she hoisted not only the new lord of the manor in the crook of her hip but 3 of her own as well

weight is not just associated w/blkness in this country {by tale of the article} but moreso w/age...u won't find an overweight teenager or young 20somethin unless she is to be the "tragic one"...or the comic relief...that is also how clothing is marketed...over a size 12???...well here are the granny panties & a nice big striped shift...{we don't call them mumus anymore}...but who's by that measure interested in the vitality of blk america & it's women anyhow right???...& somewhere in the shuffle if u ARE a teenager or a young 20something...the media would have u believe that u are a bi/multiracial being that somehow "metamorphasizes" into the mammy...perhaps this is a telltale sign of how "they" found us most fetchin in our youth back 'THEN'...as u will see her as the lone blk person amongst white teens/college students {see the plantation correlation when massa's "other" children of miscenation got to play nice-nice w/his own blue blooded ones???} & the 'mammy' scrubbin floors & fixin dinnner is how she expected to be after "fruition"

yet i am still to wonder how castin larger sized blk women for commercials & the likes of a law degree'd star jones {whose foray into television began w/reportin for court tv...a highly unglamorous 15 minutes...& years w/the DA's office in nyc} somehow supports this...aren't we as blk women the first to pitch tortilla chips at the screen because the women of color are NOT true to life???...as for the woman on mars vs venus she used to tout psychic friends hotlines as well...NOW HERE WE GO: "but madame cleo's fat too"...okay...maybe there are more of US than THEM...all the fat blk women ATE all the thin...equally talented...armani w/out a fittin wearin...golden globe presentin blk women in america

now if u please...i'd like to make me a cup of very sweet hot cocoa w/real whipped cream & watch myself on television





i used to think myself a whore...until i realized how broke i was...then how rich...
then how broken
then i realized...
i was not a whore at all...
but facsimile of wealth i sought to copy & not engender
frum the vault deep w/in

_____________
Kamikaze Genes
____________♌♀
goddess; small g.

  

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guerilla_love
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Wed Mar-14-01 06:02 AM

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12. "some thoughts"
In response to Reply # 0


          

for now, but i'm sure i'll have more soon

1. being a round woman, i have to admit i feel most comfortable around women my size. so there's my bias right off.

2. very large women are seen as sloppy and not really caring about themselves. most likely these mothers would not leave their kids with a really big woman, just a big woman

3. smaller women are seen as less nurturing and more like sex objects

4. standards are different depending on who's judging and who's being judged, mostly as a result of personal experiences. personal experiences can be mostly from the media.

5. we already know that white people prefer black images that they see as unthreatening; meaning they don't wanna be surrounded by beautiful black women or capable, intelligent black men or cute black kids with a lotta potential (keep in mind when i say that that i'm talking about majority cultures, and, in this case, a media culture)- they're more comfortable with clowns like fat albert and less threatening women like oprah and token black female models with quiet opinions



==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

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.....

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nebt_het
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13. "remember Mother Love? n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Ill cold cut that ass if you dont gimme my sammich!!!" RemyMartin


Nuwb or "blackness" is supreme balance before the chaos was introduced. It was a state of sound, right reasoning. That darkness was triple darkness, which is what you would call the absence of consciousness, or the state of being awoke. In actuality, the dream state is more real and peaceful than the chaos you meet once you are awake. A form of spiritual darkness responsible for the spark that turned on the light that is the life and intellect of all who breathe and think.
When the light is turned on again, the chaos begins. The differentiation begins. The separation begins. The rights and the wrongs, the goodness and the badness; the supreme balance is broken and the ego begins to verse the "I."

  

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shmooz

Wed Mar-14-01 06:52 AM

  
14. "motha' love...."
In response to Reply # 13


          

was one cold woman. you ever see her on that show?

damn...

shmooz

"i wanna be a pioneer so trails i blaze"

"hip hop you're the love of my life"

  

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nappyhead earth

Tue Mar-20-01 10:32 AM

  
40. "RE: motha' love...."
In response to Reply # 14


          

...replaced by a more slender, prettier, longer-hair rockin' Robin Givens...

"tell me what you gon' do to get free? WE NEED MORE THAN EMCEES, WE NEED HUEYS AND REVOLUTIONARIES..." M1, deadprez

"with the painstaking presicion of taggin'
with a Magnum on thread
I sowed my own Parable..."--me

  

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Marla
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18. "hmph"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It’s interesting to me that someone in the marketing business, a business built on the target market’s judgments and sweeping preconceived notions of entire groups of other people, would write about their dissatisfaction with the process of stereotyping one set of people and not the other. She’s not calling for an end to the grouping of everyone, she’s calling for the end of the grouping of one set. Just as she pointed out with her random sampling, people are generalized based on the actions of one person that they’ve had contact with in the past. She made a judgment about the young black girl being “weird looking” and the others being pretty. For me, I have to wonder if she would judge a black person more harshly than a white person. But anyway, I’m just wondering why she would be involved in a business that feeds off of stereotypical images and then question her bread and butter. But I guess that now she’s decided that she’s above that and she’s a writer. Her entire story was filled with subjective descriptions of others, generalizations and stereotypes. It's something to think about, though full of inconsistencies.

I think she’d do better in radio.

~Marla

AYBABTU

mechanes d’ esto kratos ~Aeschylus

Perhaps the supreme irony of black American existence is how broadly black people debate the question of cultural identity among themselves while getting branded as a cultural monolith by those who would deny us the complexity and complexion of a community, let alone a nation. ~Greg Tate

BUCKA BUCKA BUCKA..."FREEZE"...BUCKA BUCKA..."DROP YOUR WEAPON"...BLADOW ~Slogan for the Secret Service as told by Jay.

email: marlagurl@hotmail.com
AIM: marlagurl75
http://marlagurl.diaryland.com

________________________________________
Keep Penis Clean Or Find Genital Spots

  

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QweenFiyah
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Wed Mar-14-01 08:35 AM

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19. "but when ophra was skinny.."
In response to Reply # 0


          

and was all foxy & shyt on the cover of Vogue, Black people sent her thousands of negative emails and letters asking her who she thought she was looking like that, doing that..ect.

Thereafter she gained the weight back.
(I was watching an episode when she said this.)



Its not really a comfort zone. Its a un-comfort zone in my opinion.






________________________________________
Open Your 3rd Eye
http://www.geocities.com/kisszion/cleansing.html
~Or~
http://members.blackplanet.com/ZionzFire

  

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morpheme
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Wed Mar-14-01 09:27 AM

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21. "but there was just as many blk folk..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

who never ridiculed her for bein overweight...didn't think twice about oprah bein fat until oprah {et al} made bones {no pun intended} about bein overweight...
i think oprah incited ppl's derision w/her weight if u will...she seem'd to make excuses for it..."plagiarize" it {"i was a size 16 in 'the color purple'"}...& not seem comfortable w/it {that despite fortune & recognition u cannot expect her above all others to dauntlessly command}
now that oprah is not "skinny" anymore is fine...least she's not yappin about it all the time...hardly any weight references at all
oprah ain't never made me wanta be skinny

i used to think myself a whore...until i realized how broke i was...then how rich...
then how broken
then i realized...
i was not a whore at all...
but facsimile of wealth i sought to copy & not engender
frum ___

_____________
Kamikaze Genes
____________♌♀
goddess; small g.

  

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QweenFiyah
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Wed Mar-14-01 08:32 PM

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26. "RE: but there was just as many blk folk..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>who never ridiculed her for bein
>overweight...didn't think twice about oprah
>bein fat until oprah {et
>al} made bones {no pun
>intended} about bein overweight...



>i think oprah incited ppl's derision
>w/her weight if u will...she
>seem'd to make excuses for
>it..."plagiarize" it {"i was a
>size 16 in 'the color
>purple'"}...& not seem comfortable w/it
>{that despite fortune & recognition
>u cannot expect her above
>all others to dauntlessly command}
>
>now that oprah is not "skinny"
>anymore is fine...least she's not
>yappin about it all the
>time...hardly any weight references at
>all
>oprah ain't never made me wanta
>be skinny



Yeah, I think that her own stigma about being overwieght left her open for others to ridicule.


>
________________________________________
Open Your 3rd Eye
http://www.geocities.com/kisszion/cleansing.html
~Or~
http://members.blackplanet.com/ZionzFire

  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-14-01 11:03 AM

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22. "a friend of mine said once"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

that Oprah was America's mammy...

I've been pondering that ever since...

L.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"my mama said/a lady ain't what she wears/but what she knows"~~India Arie

Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Isa_Sabur

Wed Mar-14-01 09:19 AM

  
20. "one of our many struggles n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


          

"We gonna put camera's in the back, and take the rear-view out" - Fabulous

  

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Royalty
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Wed Mar-14-01 12:18 PM

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23. "RE: The only black"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

woman in the history of the Academy Awards to win Best Actress
was the "mammy" from Gone With The Wind I believe...hmmm..

I don't know..this whole thing is just another prime example of how they're comfortable 'seeing' us. That role portrayal was something they could all relate to...it was acceptable. Like w/the article, the "funny-looking" black girl was acceptable...they wanted her to stand out in some unfavorable way in relation to the pretty white girls.whatever.it's all bs..

and they have to focus on Oprah's weight because she's so fucking powerful!!
anything to try to put her in some little box and say, "see, she's got all that money and still can't seem to lose a few pounds and keep it off" ((shaking heads))
...and we all know her audience and viewership is chock full of
white women waiting for her and Dr. Phil to tell them how to live their lives...
interesting issue/post, you do the math...
I just wanna know where all of Oprah's viewers were when 'Beloved' hit the theatres ?

carry on-

R

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful

  

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Nettrice
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24. "I always imagined..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...that one day "Mammy" would sneak into "Massa's" gun room, grab a shotgun and blow away the myth that sturdy (not fat) Black women were mules of the world. Then, she'd pick up her skirt and get free!

Simply put Black women were once seen as animals much like mules or cattle. Slave owners auctioned off the female slaves that looked sturdy and could endure long days of toting cotton in the hot sun or females with big breasts and body parts to nurse and nurture all the babies on the plantation (no, Massa, my tits ain't made for all ya'll).

Did anyone ever see the documentary "Ethnic Notions" back in the late '80's? It was narrated by Esther Rolle (not by coincidence) and focused on the images of Black people in the Americas in the 19th and 20th century. Mammies, uncles, pickaninnies, minstrels, etc. It was really an eye-opener for me.

So here we are in the 21st century, as Black women, and we can't get free, let go of "Mammy". From Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth to Oprah Winfrey and Toni Morrison, we have real examples of big, sturdy women who defied the stereotypes. Yet, here we are stuck in this self-destructive cycle.

Let it go!

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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UrbanCowgRRL
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Wed Mar-14-01 06:15 PM

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25. "I agree with morpheme"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and nettrice that is is what 'they' have seen for years and years since brought over from africa...

But I also agree that this writer seems very bitter and cynical in her style...if her thin self got the part....people would be crying the opposite...

Much love,
Kyle

****************************************
You still want your harbor punk??...i'll show you your harbor...
between my legs baby...now dock that shit.
****************************************

much love,
Kyle

Detroit..Let's GO!!! May 12th Dilla Walk for Lupus...Belle Isle...

http://walk.lupusresearch.org/goto/blackeyedskeez

Even a Dollar can HELP..


http://www.myspace.com/jedikyle
http://www.detroitderbygirls.com/

  

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k_orr
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Thu Mar-15-01 06:24 AM

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27. "She's confused"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

She really is. Most women on tv, regardless of race/cultural background represent the European Ideal of beauty, or as close as you can get to it, not being european. (traci bingham from baywatch, leila arcieri from son of the beach, Karyn Parsons from the fresh prince, Jasmine Guy)

If you do see beautiful black women on TV and they don't represent the Euro ideal (fair skin, long straight hair), they then represent the black venus. Exotic and highly sexual. (lisa nicole carson from Ally McBeal, Vivica Fox) Still I can't think of a dark skinned sista that fits this role.

If the black woman does not fit either of those two categories, she can still get into the what a successful black man's wife looks like. Boss Lady and Laqueeda from the Steve Harvey Show, Elise Neal? from the Dl Hughley show. Basically a thin sister, maybe a nice back end, but her skin might be light to medium. Never an Alfre Woodard type.

The final stereotype is the mammy.

But in most cases, the common idea is that black folks have such a presence of mind and understanding of life, that we can see through the BS and never get caught up, and always provide the perfect advice. You see the same thing with the older asian characters.

Is there some kinda conspiracy to always place the dark skinned heavy set sista to be the arbiter of wisdom?

Or is it some sort of larger conspiracy that has defined black in terms of white?

Yet even if you go for option 2, do you think it's possible to represent real life in that sort of medium?

White folks can't do it for themselves, why do you think they can do it for us?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Wise_7

Fri Mar-16-01 10:01 AM

  
28. "can't fuk with HollyWierd"
In response to Reply # 0


          

If we continue to rely on mainstream networks and Hollywierd to put us on, then we'll always be sold short.
We will always represent a certain stereotype or figurative myth (atleast for as long in our generation).
It's a bullshit industry, and yall know that by now.
Aunt Jemima (even if now she got a perm) and Uncle Bens are still in America's minds.
*tsk* *tsk* *tsk*


"People think they make music, still/ when music is there without you or me, we just manipulate/ for better or worse, so let it situate"- Deltron

"upgrade your brain matter... 'cause one day, it may matter!"- Deltron

  

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spacecowgirl
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Fri Mar-16-01 11:24 AM

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29. "RE: mmMAMMY?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

it definately has everything to with making white people comfortable. if whitney were a thin and goregous, hell yeah, there would be a problem and, hell no, her show would not still be on the air. she is not threatening in apperance and she upholds what is deemed the physical apperance of mammy.
look at shows with nanny's. there has yet to be a show with a thin black woman as a nanny but there was nell carter and the show on abc with geena davis and countless others i'm sure. white women portraying nanny's do tend to be thinner. i think the ms. garret on different strokes may have been the exception.
their is so much more i wanna say about this but i just got an assignment so peace for now.


"Don't forget about strangers for many of you have entertained angels unaware."

"you've captured the tiger but the cubs are still loose." - marcus garvey

"don't forsake you. you are what you own. when you love you you'll never be alone."-me

check this out!
www.aliamarie.com

don't forsake you, you are what you own. when you love you, you'll never be alone

be aware of strangers. many of us have entertained angels unaware

  

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INTELLITRIGUE

Fri Mar-16-01 12:12 PM

  
30. "RE: mmMAMMY?"
In response to Reply # 29


          

Does it ever seem like some dead horses are beaten too much. Not to take away from anybodys validity but, isnt the question rhetorical? Some people happen upon a spider in the shower, some people turn over every rock they can find looking for one, some people talk too much about spiders and dont make any sense ... Damn its nice out today I think I'll stop looking for the bad in the world and worry about nourishing my soul on some playground time with the kids. I can worry about what other people think and say about me and my people tommorow.

  

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bandigit1

Fri Mar-16-01 01:30 PM

  
31. "interesting...but..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...I'm wondering who the author would leave HER kids with.

The media thrives on stereotypes.
Destructive, yes, but not exclusively to black women.
Obviously.
Since we all know how white women are protrayed...especially in youth. IE:christina, britney, mandie, jessica, hoku...etc...
BLONDE
{bleaching isn't so dangerous},
TAN
{not too much a problem unless you're not keen on your skin looking 80 when you're 40 yrs old},
THIN
{well,I personally know at least 5 white women who struggle w/eating disorders}.




*Props to Nettrice and Morpheme(tho I don't know you)when either of you women post - I appreciate.

  

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scorpion
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Fri Mar-16-01 02:12 PM

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32. "Why? I'll tell you why..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

The entertainment industry is based on sex. Sex sells. To who? To men. To white men. Most of the stuff on prime time tv is geared toward white men. It is from the entertainment industry that most people get their ideas on what is sexy, beautiful, etc... It is a known fact that white men are turned on by women of color, but it is a sin to admit it. They will never admit it. I have noticed that whenever there are black women on tv, that they are a little less attractive than everyone else. However if the role calls for the said woman of color to have any romantic interest, then they find a biracial black woman. someone who has darker skin but european features. It is an unwritten rule that if you are a black woman on tv, you MUST wear your hair in the fright wig style. You CANNOT have straightened hair. But if you are young, black, fine, and female in Hollywood , you can only expect a Nia Long-ish career. If your lucky(and light enough) a Halle Berry-ish career. I point the finger at the white women that work in Hollywood, who else is insecure enough to ensure that talented, fine, full-blooded, black women don't appear on screen. Hollywood is threatened by the notion that if fine black women appear as leading ladies, that white men will be more open in their pursuit, lust, appreciation, what have you of women of color. Think about it, where in entertaiment can you find fine sistas in the limelight that look like your boy's fine ass cousin. In music! There are plenty in music. So for there to be very few young, fine, black, leading ladies is obviously a concerted effort on the part of Hollywood. In other words, THEY DONT WANT AN OUTBREAK OF DA FEVER!!!

Scorpion

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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Lothar

Fri Mar-16-01 02:18 PM

  
34. "RE: Why? I'll tell you why..."
In response to Reply # 32


          

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/News/jimcrow/mammies/
peep it........

  

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Lothar

Fri Mar-16-01 03:17 PM

  
35. "RE: Why? I'll tell you why..."
In response to Reply # 32


          

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/News/jimcrow/mammies/ okaaaaay?

I am happy to be nappy and black, but I would think that there were other color spectrums since we were called "colored".

Another thing, if you go to the Jim Crow website above, you will see that the issues are not ONLY about color but about creation fear using the media(tv,movies,radio,literature,etc.). You will observe that many of the devices they used to promote prejudice have not changed and actually have increased. I can say that there was a time when the Japanese symbolized the bad guy in America. Nowadays it is the arab/muslim internationally, and the African decendant on a local level. Although O.J. may have been guilty, the media STILL went back to the old school with his picture and darkened it and made sure he was shiny for the camera. The media is a monster when it is your only source of information and this is where WE as HUMAN BEINGS have failed in one way or another.

  

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peacefornow

Sat Mar-17-01 12:24 AM

  
37. "Very true about the "heat" for sistas...."
In response to Reply # 32


          

But LOL at this:

>The entertainment industry is based on
>sex. Sex sells. To who?
>To men. To white men.
>Most of the stuff on
>prime time tv is geared
>toward white men.

That's basically a racist-taught assumption. I never assume that the audience for any image is solely for white males. Black males can be socialized to the fullest extent to think exactly like white males do. Hence, rap videos as they exist today.

And this trips me out:

>I point the finger at the
>white women that work in
>Hollywood, who else is insecure
>enough to ensure that talented,
>fine, full-blooded, black women don't
>appear on screen.

What is "full-blooded?" Is that referring to any African Americans? LOL!! LOL!!!

  

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scorpion
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Tue Mar-20-01 09:22 AM

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39. "RE: Very true about the "heat" for sistas....Scorpion's reply"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

I'm sorry you misunderstood my statements. When I said sex sells, I FIRST said to men. Then I said to white men. I put it that way as to say that sex sells to men as a whole, and that white men are a part of that group. The most targeted demographic is the 18-24 year old white male. You know although the black community gives mad loot to multi national corporations, most of the marketing on prime time isn't aimed at people of color. The corporations are very happy to take our loot, though. Unfortunately, black folks tend to desire tthe symbols of status that white folks hold dear. We have a sort of exchange in our society.A good number of black folks wish to attain a level of affluence that a good number of white folks have acheived or seem to have acheived or at least to obtain the material goods that symbolize that affluence. But they expect it to be given to them easily instead of going thru the uphill struglle it takes to get there, therefore missing out on the building of character that occurs when when you realized a goal thru determination and hard work.While a good number of white folks aspire to our cultural aesthetic, without experiecing and appreciating the pain, struggle, and spirit that results in the cultural values that we hold dear. So as a result our cultural standards and desires tend to intertwine at points. This is very psychologically complex, and i was trying to make my point quickly. So although as Mix-a-Lot said we like big butts we seem to have developed a like of light skin and flowing hair, too. Thus, your common day rap video. Black folks are beautiful and we come in every shade of the spectrum. I did not mean to imply that a biracial person is impure or any less Black than I am. I was speaking in sort of Hollywood terms when I said "pure-blooded". I was talking about women whose parents are both of African descent. No doubt we all have different kinds of blood in us. I was saying that if Hollywood is looking for a fine black woman, they tend to choose biracial black women. there is nothing wrong with those women, but there should be some balance. Women who are undeniably black and undeniably beautiful should have their chance as well. I still blame white women for not having enough self-esteem to be realistic about their self image and what is beautiful. When Jennifer Lopez first broke through, she was being called fat. Now that she has been accepted, they dont call her fat anymore, but they still say she's a "big girl." How?! Most White men don't think that way unless they work in Hollywood. Thus, white men's secret infatuation with women of color. White women will starve themselves to death. Young white girls are under TREMENDOUS pressure to be stick thin. I've read about models who have complained about HAVING breasts. This is insane. With this type of thinking going on in Hollywood, it is impossible for a Black woman, like Theresa Randle(star of Girl 6), who is a talented actress and OOZES sex, to have a prosperous career in Hollywood.
I should have clarified my statements. I hope you understand.

Scorpion

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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peacefornow

Tue Mar-20-01 12:15 PM

  
41. "It's all gravy"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I can relate to coming onto any boards on the Net and trying to elaborate a complicated point with a limited amount of time or words. I won't say that I understand you....I do appreciate many of your statements though. Especially this one:

While a
>good number of white folks
>aspire to our cultural aesthetic,
>without experiecing and appreciating the
>pain, struggle, and spirit that
>results in the cultural values
>that we hold dear.

I see this form of cultural appropriation as something comparable to a sin. You also said:

So although as
>Mix-a-Lot said we like big
>butts we seem to have
>developed a like of light
>skin and flowing hair, too.
>Thus, your common day rap
>video.

I agree with your point here, but I often wonder at what point will Black peeps really be happy with what they see projected to them on the television screen. Presently, I tend to see a very BROAD range of Black females on TV being exploited by entertainers and their record companies (light skin, dark, etc.). My personal beef with the videos' content is that their portrayal of Black females today is worse than what white TV producers' portrayal of white females was when I was a child. But we all have different standards, I guess.

You also said:

I was
>speaking in sort of Hollywood
>terms when I said "pure-blooded".
>I was talking about women
>whose parents are both of
>African descent. No doubt we
>all have different kinds of
>blood in us. I was
>saying that if Hollywood is
>looking for a fine black
>woman, they tend to choose
>biracial black women. there is
>nothing wrong with those women,
>but there should be some
>balance. Women who are undeniably
>black and undeniably beautiful should
>have their chance as well.

I figured that's what you meant when you said "pure-blooded." That's why I took issue with your use of the term, because it tends to imply a "standard" that is basically useless to African Americans. I feel you on the issue of biracial Black women being placed higher in a sort of cultural hierarchy, but again I wonder how prevalent that trend really is in the casting of Hollywood films. Halle Berry is one woman. There are many other black women working in Hollywood. I am an aspiring filmmaker and want to represent all types of sistas in my films, but I often wonder if there are deeper issues being played out by some of us when we continuously and sometimes pointlessly harp on color differences among our own peeps - though I don't mean to imply that you have any of those issues. And also, perhaps the real problem in your consideration in your last sentence is that we keep looking to the wrong industry to solve the problems we consider to be so pressing.

You also stated:

With this type of
>thinking going on in Hollywood,
>it is impossible for a
>Black woman, like Theresa Randle(star
>of Girl 6), who is
>a talented actress and OOZES
>sex, to have a prosperous
>career in Hollywood.

I think this is a bad thing! She is a dime and shows ability as an actor.

peace
fg

  

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peacefornow

Sat Mar-17-01 12:16 AM

  
36. "Ehh this is strange"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I mean, it's definitely a real phenomenon that continues to have currency in the mass media -- unlike, say, the little Black kid star who won't grow up (whew, thank God that that motherfucker went away!) -- but I don't think we need to pin our obsession with bigness on sistas. Sir Mix-a-Lot did "Baby Got Back" which was about sistas and their derrieres, but after he blew up he said that white women thanked him for it. Nowadays, I can go outside and see some white women with asses as big as sistas'! Nowadays, most people will admit that a big booty is a pleasant and a good thing on a woman, period. Mammies are just one more production -- or more importantly, fixation -- of the white racist's imagery. Let us hope that the right image-makers continue to come into power to liberate the Black image.

fg

  

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