http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=2206

Is Dirk really that good because they have him ahead of a lot people like Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal. He is very good, but there a lot of players I would start a franchise with before him.

***************
www.myspace.com/angoleiro
www.myspace.com/manjingaparty

Simple math:

Dirk might be the best offensive 4 in the league.

He's probably the 15 best defensive 4 in the league.

(1+15) / 2 = 8.

Jermaine O'Neal is say....the 8th best offensive 4 or 5 in the league(at least).

Jermaine O'Neal is at least the 4th best defensive 4 or 5 in the league(at least).

(8 + 4) / 2 = 6.


All those numbers are unnecessary though.

He's just a better all around player, qualitatively.


I never really understood how people can conveniently ignore
how important defense is in the game of basketball.

That is particularly the case when we are talking about
a guy to build a franchise around.

All the MVP candidates this year were guys who were at least adequate defensively except Dirk and Nash.

That's pretty interesting.



----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

-------------------
"Everyone needs to stop worrying about everyone else's CD player." - mrshow
^^^Best thing ever said in The Lesson! EVER!!^^^

Trek Life's debut album "Price I've Paid" available now!!!!

www.trek-life.com
www.myspace.com/treklife

Plus as soft as Dirk may be, O'Neal is more injury prone.

But I can see the argument, I guess, with Billups that is for retards-only; Prince has been their best player in the playoffs and B Wallace has been the guy for about 5 years.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

I assume you're talking about Hines Ward vs Randy Moss.


Firstly, the comparison is bad because the Ward vs Moss comparison
takes place in a sport where players play a single
side of the ball. Because everyone in the NBA does both, that
comparison breaks down.

But if you must:

Between Randy Moss and Hines Ward, which one is more likely
to impact the course of a football game more?

Randy Moss. Not debatable.

We say Ward is "more complete" because he
can "do more things better" than Randy Moss can.

Now to the NBA:


Between Jermaine O'Neal and Dirk Nowitzki, which one is
likely to impact the course of a basketball game more?

Jermaine O'Neal.

Not even close.

He gives you 20 and 10, and is one of the paints most
intimidating shot blockers, a quality that dramatically
impacts opposing offenses. He's also a quality help defender,
and can guard 3 positions if he needs to. His feet are quick
enough to guard the Carmelo's of the world. His strength can
body up any big man south of Shaquille.

Dirk's dominance,on the other hand, is relegated to the
offensive side of the ball.

That being the case, Jermaine O'Neal wins in both
categories;

a)More complete("does more things better")

b)Better overall("His presence impacts the outcome of the game more")



>Plus as soft as Dirk may be, O'Neal is more injury prone.
>
>But I can see the argument, I guess, with Billups that is for
>retards-only; Prince has been their best player in the
>playoffs and B Wallace has been the guy for about 5 years.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

(didn't Dirk avg 27 & 10 this year?)

~G.D.

>(didn't Dirk avg 27 & 10 this year?)

Dirk can score and rebound.

We know that.

He's still not within light years of Jermaine O'Neal
defensively, and does not impact the game as much as
Jermaine does overall because of it.

That's the point.

----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

I just don't get it. People act as if any top 10 player had Dirk's team, they wouldn't be top contender too.

Who?

They don't even have another All Star.

They had talent in the past, sure, but no emphasis on defense.

May have been different is Avery Johnson was coach back then.

Plus, the West was a monster back then. What team was Dirk supposed to push them past?

Duncan's Spurs?

Shaq and Kobe's Lakers?

_____________________________
"If you had any idea who I was, or what I've done in the past, you'd know that i'm not bluffing."
-Jack fukking Bauer


www.vondarrien.wordpress.com
http://twitter.com/Vondarrien

Just because Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Marquis Danies, Keith Van Horn didn't make the Allstar team they're wack?

are ginobli, parker, bowen, and finley comprable to the guys you just named? like at least in the ballpark?

because, in case you forgot, dirk's team just beat a team with all those guys and the greatest power forward of all time.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

and secondly, other than Parker and Manu, the Spurs are a very old team with plenty of role players past their prime. Am I lying?

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

.

2. ... and?

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

Yall the ones arguing.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

AllStar? - Fans vote for allstars its a fucking popularity contest...remember that if it were not for Don Nelson...2 of Dirks appearances were null and void...

Avery Johnson said, "IT HAS NOT BEEEN DIRK NOWITSKI CARRYING THIS TEAM, IT HAS BEEN THE JOSH HOWARDS AND JASON TERRYS..."

The truth is Dirk is only as good as the team is playing...if the team is getting crushed DIRK HIDES!....

watch the massacre in Miami...

sourcing all that noise - http://sonicvibrations.blogspot.com

http://twitter.com/sonicvibration

04-05: 44 games
05-06: 51 games

Injuries factor in.

Dirk has much better numbers, so your 20 and 10 argument for JO (hasn't had 20/10 since 03, BTW) goes out the window.

And if JO is so much of a better player, why is his name in trade rumors every 5 minutes.

He's not close to seein' Dirk.

_____________________________
"If you had any idea who I was, or what I've done in the past, you'd know that i'm not bluffing."
-Jack fukking Bauer


www.vondarrien.wordpress.com
http://twitter.com/Vondarrien

not as shitty as Dirk but his D is nothing to hang you're hat on. Put it this way, I'd give JO away straight up for Dirk in a hearbeat, like seriously "PLEASE!" I mean Dirk choked tonight, but JO chokes from 6 min left in the 4th quarter on, in EVERY game.

O'Neal, despite being an excellent weak-side shot blocker, is not the defensive shut-down artist you make him out to be. His passing, frankly, sucks, and he's yet to come up big in a big playoff game. And obviously Dirk is a much superior offensive player.

O'Neal could still be on the rise if he has an injury-free year and puts in work to fine tune his game. A lot of my gripes come from his decision-making. He's at his best when he attacks the basket and doesn't settle for fade-aways.

"Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and it never will."- Frederick Douglass

>Between Jermaine O'Neal and Dirk Nowitzki, which one is
>likely to impact the course of a basketball game more?
>
>Jermaine O'Neal.
>
>Not even close.
>
>He gives you 20 and 10, and is one of the paints most
>intimidating shot blockers, a quality that dramatically
>impacts opposing offenses. He's also a quality help defender,
>and can guard 3 positions if he needs to. His feet are quick
>enough to guard the Carmelo's of the world. His strength can
>body up any big man south of Shaquille.
>
>Dirk's dominance,on the other hand, is relegated to the
>offensive side of the ball.
>
>That being the case, Jermaine O'Neal wins in both
>categories;
>
>a)More complete("does more things better")
>
>b)Better overall("His presence impacts the outcome of the game
>more")

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2006060106

oh, and dirk was no worse defensively this year than fellow mvp candiate lebron james

dirk is easily the better option

-------
It's incredible how the people that know the least are the first to offer advice.

>Between Jermaine O'Neal and Dirk Nowitzki, which one is
>likely to impact the course of a basketball game more?
>
>Jermaine O'Neal.
>
>Not even close.

like, at all?

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

Like beyond blocks/steals, what happens to the guy he's guarding, in terms of difference in shooting percentage, scoring average, even assists for the double-teams that have to come help out a weak defender? I'm just curious on what kind of quantitative stats there are out there for defense. I don't necessarily disagree on your approximations for Dirk/J.O., I'm just wondering on weighting offense and defense equally, if the corresponding impacts are really the same.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

Just don't ask me to be honest.

I like guys who play both ends of the court.

Given who the last two MVP awards were given to,
I'm obviously in the minority.



----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

because "offense" and "defense" are each only one skill.

it's not like offense isn't shooting, passing, driving, rebounding, and commanding double teams to free up your teammates. it's not like dirk isn't light years--LIGHT YEARS--ahead of o'neill in every one of those categories. and it's not like defense includes rebounding, at which, again, dirk is clearly better than o'neill.

but, yes, he checks guys in the post better and can help out his teammates as a shot blocker better. i like o'neill--all star when healthy, and i'd kill to have him on the sixers. but o'neill is not even in the same orbit (no pun intended) as dirk. there is not a single personnel man in the league who would take jermaine o'neill over dirk--not one.

jermaine does a lot of things well, but at the end of the day, he's "just" a very good player, like a chauncey billups or a michael redd in the post. those guys are real good but not dominant. you can stop them from doing what they do well if you're better than them. likewise, you can stop o'neill. you can't stop dirk. entire defenses are designed to take him away, and he still gets his 30 and 10 every damn game. when push comes to shove and basketball goes to its highest level, you need a guy who is so good that he can still do what he does. dirk can. o'neill's not even close to that.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

>because "offense" and "defense" are each only one skill.

I mean, at least try to hide your strawmen.

My gosh.

Not off to a good start.

>it's not like offense isn't shooting, passing, driving,
>rebounding, and commanding double teams to free up your
>teammates. it's not like dirk isn't light years--LIGHT
>YEARS--ahead of o'neill in every one of those categories. and
>it's not like defense includes rebounding, at which, again,
>dirk is clearly better than o'neill.

Light years twice. Once in caps. Hmmm.

And Dirk actually isn't this prodigious passer like everyone
seems to think he is.

And as far as double teams, the obligate post player
actually commands more double teams than the 7 foot
jumpshooter.

I mean, that would be painfully obvious if
your 'Free Dirk Nowitzki' movement wasn't clouding
your vision and logic.

>but, yes, he checks guys in the post better and can help out
>his teammates as a shot blocker better. i like o'neill--all
>star when healthy, and i'd kill to have him on the sixers.
>but o'neill is not even in the same orbit (no pun intended) as
>dirk. there is not a single personnel man in the league who
>would take jermaine o'neill over dirk--not one.

And every season we see how smart NBA personnel men are in
regards to their decision making about NBA talent.

Yes, your point was bad.

>jermaine does a lot of things well, but at the end of the day,
>he's "just" a very good player, like a chauncey billups or a
>michael redd in the post.

Hmm.

Sorta like a...I dunno....like "The MF Doom of R&B?"

I mean, while we are constructing meaningless, unhelpful
analogies, I figured I'd chip in.

those guys are real good but not
>dominant. you can stop them from doing what they do well if
>you're better than them. likewise, you can stop o'neill. you
>can't stop dirk.

That must've been someone else I saw put up 11 points
the other game.

Oh...I get it..."he did that himself. The Suns didn't do that."

That argument is about as bad as the:

"Batman could defeat Jesus Christ if he had time to think and
prepare" ones we used to get in PTP.

entire defenses are designed to take him
>away, and he still gets his 30 and 10 every damn game. when
>push comes to shove and basketball goes to its highest level,
>you need a guy who is so good that he can still do what he
>does. dirk can. o'neill's not even close to that.

No, O'Neal is not capable of putting up 29 and 10 a game.

He is, however, capable of putting up 22 and 10 a game, blocking
several shots, changing many others, guarding 3 positions, and having a significant impact on 2 sides of the court.

I'm not saying the decision is easy. There are plenty of reasons
one would choose Dirk.

I'm suggesting that I LIKE 2 SIDED PLAYERS, and would PREFER to
start MY franchise with one of those types of players.

That is why the 'Dirk over O'Neal' decision isn't as reflexive
for me as it is for you.

Fall back.

----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

>I mean, at least try to hide your strawmen.

not even. you're the one who indicated that basketball requires only two sets of skills that were exactly equivalent. your methodology entailed ranking two players in relation to the rest of the league and then averaging the two numbers. precise.
>And Dirk actually isn't this prodigious passer like everyone
>seems to think he is.

i'll agree with that...but he's still a lot better than jermaine.

>And as far as double teams, the obligate post player
>actually commands more double teams than the 7 foot
>jumpshooter.

yes, in Orbit Abstract Land (a land of magical whimsy where real life doesn't intrude on a good argument) a nameless great post player commands more double teams than a nameless great perimeter player. but we're not talking about abstractions. we're talking about jermaine o'neill and dirk nowitski. and anyone who watches both of them for a length of time can have no doubt as to who gets doubled more and who distorts the defense more

>And every season we see how smart NBA personnel men are in
>regards to their decision making about NBA talent.

LOL, that's an L. Orbit knows better than the people paid to know about basketball, and he's going to prove it with his counterintuitive point that he argues well. The problem is, you can't argue this one well, because you have no facts to support your argument. Dirk is better. He just went for 50 and 12.

>That must've been someone else I saw put up 11 points
>the other game.

>Oh...I get it..."he did that himself. The Suns didn't do
>that."

Yeah, but he did. He had a bad game. It happened to players much better than Dirk and will again in the future. But leave it to Orbit to focus on his one bad game after a 50 game stretch in which he's averaging 30 and 10

>"Batman could defeat Jesus Christ if he had time to think and
>prepare" ones we used to get in PTP.

This is the best work you've done in this post so far.

>No, O'Neal is not capable of putting up 29 and 10 a game.
>
>He is, however, capable of putting up 22 and 10 a game,
>blocking
>several shots, changing many others, guarding 3 positions, and
>having a significant impact on 2 sides of the court.

Okay, but if you get to count all those things I get to count Dirk's distoring impact on a defense and the resulting layups and open looks he creates for him teammates

>I'm not saying the decision is easy. There are plenty of
>reasons
>one would choose Dirk.

The decision is easy.

>I'm suggesting that I LIKE 2 SIDED PLAYERS, and would PREFER
>to
>start MY franchise with one of those types of players.

See "Orbit Abstract Land" above.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Out of their ass, mostly.

That dark place where basketball is like football
in that players only play one side of the ball.

In my radical world of basketball, everyone
plays offense and defense.

But I don't watch the games, remember.

----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jermaine_oneal/index.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/index.html

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

I'm trying to understand.

I'm giving my all, I swear.

----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

look under the career averages line.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

>look under the career averages line.

Motherfucka,

Jermaine O'Neal BARELY FUCKING PLAYED AT
ALL HIS FIRST 4 SEASONS.

When he and Dirk have started, and played substantial
minutes(30 plus per game), O'Neal has been the superior rebounder...including THIS PAST season.

Talk about a trainwreck.

Wow.





----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

so, on one of the 60 percent of the games this season that O'Neal could play in, he got 3 tenths more of a rebound per game? that's super. i guess i'll just be irrational and say the guy who doesn't get hurt getting out of bed in the morning is a better guy to build a franchise around, even if he is 3 tenths of a rebound short of said invalid. i think the ability to be on the floor is important in getting a rebound. call crazy.

and I know you didn't miss the 04-05 stats or Dirk's elevation of his game come playoff time.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

>so, on one of the 60 percent of the games this season that
>O'Neal could play in, he got 3 tenths more of a rebound per
>game? that's super.

Motherfuckaka, IS DIRK A BETTER REBOUNDER THAN JERMAINE?

IS HE?


IS HE?


IS HE?


Good.

You were wrong, because you're foaming at the mouth
in your crusade to inform the world of the brilliance
of Dirk Nowitzki. Dude is sick with his.

He also can't defend a parked car.

O_E wants his franchise player to play well
on both sides of the court, to be versatile, to impact
play in many ways.

To Dirk's credit, he is a good rebounder.

He's just not better than Jermaine O'Neal, which
you wrongly stated before. I'd simply say they are
about equal.


So shut thee fock up, please.

i guess i'll just be irrational and say
>the guy who doesn't get hurt getting out of bed in the morning
>is a better guy to build a franchise around, even if he is 3
>tenths of a rebound short of said invalid. i think the
>ability to be on the floor is important in getting a rebound.
>call crazy.


LMMFAO!!!! Trying to divert attention, are we?

What the fuck does any of this have to do with the fact
that you were wrong about the rebounding?

You were blatantly wrong about the Dirk's rebounding
superiority, attempted to bend statistics to prove your
bad point, and were called out.

Man up.

He's not a better rebounder.

He's not nearly as good a defender. In fact,
He's a much, much, worse defender.

He's also a much, much, better scorer.


>and I know you didn't miss the 04-05 stats or Dirk's elevation
>of his game come playoff time.

Which has what to do with your inability to correctly reference
statistics?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

>When he and Dirk have started, and played substantial
>minutes(30 plus per game), O'Neal has been the superior
>rebounder...including THIS PAST season.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

Of course you don't.

You, like me, think they are about equal for all intents and purposes.

Also, Shelly didn't point to your statistic to argue for Dirk's rebounding
supremacy. He pointed to the career averages, which was completely
ridiculous(if it wasn't me, you'd likely openly agree).

If you would choose Dirk over Jermaine to start a franchise(which you probably
would), you'd likely do it for reasons that have nothing to do with any rebounding
advantage.

Just like I would rather have Jermaine for reasons that have nothing to do with his
regular season rebounding advantage.







>>When he and Dirk have started, and played substantial
>>minutes(30 plus per game), O'Neal has been the superior
>>rebounder...including THIS PAST season.
>


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop

>Also, Shelly didn't point to your statistic to argue for
>Dirk's rebounding
>supremacy. He pointed to the career averages, which was
>completely ridiculous

but you embellished that, emphasizing with "O'Neal has been the superior rebounder...including THIS PAST season." which is not correct.

>(if it wasn't me, you'd likely openly agree).

if it wasn't you I'd openly agree that including the playoffs, Dirk's been a better rebounder this season.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

The answer you just gave said:

As of March 2006 - No

As of June 2006 - Yes

Based on a statistical difference that emerged after March
of 2006.



Problelm is, that isn't my question.

I want to know that in say....August of 2006, if someone were
to ask you:

Is Dirk Nowitzki a better rebounder than Jermaine O'Neal?

What would you say?

The answer is a single name with no disclaimers.

You would say that in terms of pure rebounding ability,
the two are about equal.

Because they are about equal.


But again -- none of this has to to do with how pathetic it was
for Shelly to use career rebounding numbers to argue that point.
He didn't use your stats. He used stats that included Jermaine O'Neal's years
when he barely played. That was terrible.


That is what you won't admit openly, again, because you don't like *me*
and are trying to come to your friends' defense.


And that is what is gay about this exchange.



>>Also, Shelly didn't point to your statistic to argue for
>>Dirk's rebounding
>>supremacy. He pointed to the career averages, which was
>>completely ridiculous
>
>but you embellished that, emphasizing with "O'Neal has been
>the superior rebounder...including THIS PAST season." which is
>not correct.
>
>>(if it wasn't me, you'd likely openly agree).
>
>if it wasn't you I'd openly agree that including the
>playoffs, Dirk's been a better rebounder this season.
>
>


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop