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spirit
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Tue Feb-01-00 01:57 PM

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"Voodoo liner notes (chauvinism?)"


  

          

Before I get the big backlash, I'm gonna save myself some "reply typing time" by asking everyone to read carefully before they reply. Hell, read it 2 or 3 times, then reply...here we go...<P>Here I was reading the liner notes on "Voodoo" thinking to myself "boy, this is really poetic". Till I got to the third page and read what to me was pure nonsense. The author (Nesta said it was Saul Williams) bust out with "is there any way to speak of that which is feminine without having masculinity right in the middle of it?". <P>Yo, I understand the play on words (woman with the word "man" within the word, female with "male" in the word), but wy immediate thought was still: "damn, dude is basically saying women can't exist without men. a quaint idea, in a chauvinist condescending way (the proper way to express the concept is "neither women nor men can exist without one another" rather than implying that one cannot speak of femininity w/o speaking of masculinity). <P>I was gonna let that slide though....till my man said this eye-popping phrase next: "Female. Woman. Unless, of course, these words came first and we later deriuved male and man from them. Somehow I doubt that." Now, why would he doubt that? I mean, at least he could have given his reasoning. as it stands, it looks like chauvinism, like "why would they name women first?" why not?<P>And the breakdown of "heart" to equal "he-art"? Huh?<P>Man, y'all know how deeply I look into words, right? (hence my usage of quotation when responding to posts). That two little sentences almost blew my whole vibe, in an otherwise excellently written set of liner notes.<P>Any thoughts? Read the liner notes, hit me back...<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...<P>"High grade when I create beats/if I don't get signed/I'ma be the most dope bum that ever walked the streets" - <BR>Aychell (HL, of Khemystery)<P>"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a tool of the conspiracy" - unknown

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
feel ya
elena
Feb 01st 2000
1
Never that...
Feb 02nd 2000
7
      So I contradict myself
elena
Feb 03rd 2000
8
I Saw It The Other Way Around
Quinn
Feb 01st 2000
2
Can't find my liner notes
Feb 01st 2000
3
      Saul is all about...
adamant
Feb 02nd 2000
4
           That's what I thought!
Feb 02nd 2000
5
Yeah, I thought the opposite as well
Feb 02nd 2000
6
I say.....
Feb 03rd 2000
9
ok naz if u want to put it thatta way
Feb 05th 2000
12
      LOL.....
Feb 05th 2000
13
      Dammmmmmnnnnnnn
Tha_Rula
Feb 07th 2000
16
           yep
Feb 08th 2000
19
well i hope y'all are right
Feb 04th 2000
10
anybody notice....
Feb 04th 2000
11
WORDS.....
SAVIR
Feb 05th 2000
14
Peace all
Feb 07th 2000
15
      Well actually.......
Feb 08th 2000
17
      faith
elena
Feb 08th 2000
18

elena

Tue Feb-01-00 03:37 PM

  
1. "feel ya"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I felt the same way. This is my interpretation...<BR>Male is derived from female, just as man is derived from woman. I think the author forgets how he was born...from a woman, from a female. Until men can be secure with their feminine beginning, they will continue to feel apart from the origins of the earth. Our creation is from nature, the earth, which is feminine.

  

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Improv
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85480 posts
Wed Feb-02-00 08:20 PM

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7. "Never that..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Knowing the little bit about Saul that I do (as in 5 years of sharing the stage with him and not having a really deep convo), he knows that he all live comes from a woman. He gives women the utmost respect. Like Nesta and Adamn said, he's basically saying for us men to get in touch with out fem side. Most of his works has women as strong images/guides/teachers/goddesses. Please read some of his works especially S/he (which is dedicated to his girlfriend/wife/mother of his daughter Saturn) and also the 1987 poem<P>Uno<BR>Improv!?<P>"Damn, can I have you? I don't want to own you or anything...I know you're a freak...Oh my god, I can't believe I'm talking to you...Can I just experience you?"---some chick to me over the telephone (okokokok that's what some chick said to D'Angelo on Hot 97 Tuesday Night (2/1/00), but a brother can dream, right?)

_________________________
Man up

“Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist”---George Carlin

  

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elena

Thu Feb-03-00 11:48 AM

  
8. "So I contradict myself"
In response to Reply # 7


          

I guess from my point of view I was spying a contradiction...you are right, the author was trying to convey that men need to be in touch with their feminine side, but he says, "Unless, of course, these words came first and we later derived male and man from them. Somehow, I doubt that." What I failed to realize was that he goes on to say "We need a new language." We must destroy the limitations we put upon ourselves--I fell into that trap by trying to defend womanhood as "first", which was wrong. Taken from that context I see the sarcasm and the real point he was trying to make--when we all get closer together to create this next age of music, culture, and art, it's about what we bring with us from the past and what we choose to leave behind. Our world is something else in a different tongue. <BR>

  

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Quinn

Tue Feb-01-00 03:55 PM

  
2. "I Saw It The Other Way Around"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>The author (Nesta said it <BR>>was Saul Williams) bust out with <BR>>Yo, I understand the play on words <BR>>(woman with the word "man" within <BR>>the word, female with "male" in <BR>>the word), but wy immediate thought <BR>>was still: "damn, dude is basically <BR>>saying women can't exist without men. <BR>>a quaint idea, in a chauvinist <BR>>condescending way <BR>I really don't know for sure what this meant, but when I was reading it I noticed the same thing, but I took it like the author was making fun of preciscly the chauvinst idea you're talking about. I don't have the piece with me, but somewhere near the being Williams mentions something about "hip-hop/R&B's man-sion", and I took the seperation of the "man" to be the author commenting of the glass ceiling he sees in the music's industry. The other parts of the essay you pointed out do see rather odd when in your post, but I remeber reading them and thinking they were part of the same semi-satircal commentary. Now I'm not so sure, but I need to see them in the context of the essay. Once I get another look at it I'll tell you what I think. "He-art" is puzzling, I admit. But the rest read very clearly to me as an indictment (sp?) of the music industry's male power structure and inherent sexism. <P>"...one finger is in the air/ and one is in the chamber/ y'all ask me what the fuck i'm doing/ i'm releasing anger..." - Andre, OutKast, 1994

  

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Nesta
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Tue Feb-01-00 06:17 PM

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3. "Can't find my liner notes"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I read those notes several tiome s and I too read it the exact opposite from you Spirit. Like my man I thought he was making fun of masculinityn adn amchismo. In fact (damn where are these liner notes?) I thought he was making a staement that to really be a man you have to understand or at least embrace what's feminie in your life.<P>Damn I'll find these notes evenmtually. Time to clean up the home office.<P><BR>“What are the rewards of those who tend to their God-given talents as they would have the creator tend to their spirits and daily lives? What happens when the artist becomes the conjur man? These are questions that seem to be null and void in the face of all the glitter and glamour that has dominated most successful balck artistry of recent years. We seem to be more preoccupied with cultivating our bank accounts than cultivating our crafts. Nowadays, I find my peers more inspired by an artist's business tactics than their artistry. In fact, we do not seem to mind an artistry that suffers in the face of seemingly good business. More artists yearn to own their own labels, etc. than they seem to yearn to master their crafts. No, we cannot allow any more Bessie Smiths to occur, but once an artist owns their own publishing the question then becomes, what are you going to publish?”<P>The VooDoo Manifesto – Saul Williams

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

  

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adamant

Wed Feb-02-00 04:13 AM

  
4. "Saul is all about..."
In response to Reply # 3


          

looking at gender in a new way - check out his book S/he (get the title?)<P>i have to admit i also thought saul was encouraging men to embrace their feminine side, and that masculinity and femininity are the ying and yang -you gotta have both to survive.<P>but i ain't got my liner notes in front of me, either. <BR>all i can say is like all good works of art (and these are the first liner notes i would put in that category), the "Voodoo Manifesto" is designed to provoke thought and discussion. .....at which it seems to be doing just fine.<P>yo, if ahmir or d is reading this, i'd love to hear how y'all hooked up with saul on this, and what discussions you had that led to him writing the notes. <P>peace<P><P>We have come in the tradition of burning bushes, burning ghettos, burning spliffs, and the ever-burning candles of our bedrooms and silent chambers. We have come bearing instruments and our voices: falsetto and baritone, percussion and horns. We have come adorned in the apparel of the annointed: leather and feathers, jeans and t-shirts, linen and cashmere, and even polyester. We have come to seduce and serenade the night and the powers of darkness. We speak of darkness, not as ignorance, but as the unknown and the mysteries of the unseen." -- Saul Williams, the "Voodoo" Manifesto

  

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Nij
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1413 posts
Wed Feb-02-00 04:18 AM

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5. "That's what I thought!"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Nesta, once again, u hit the nail on the head!<P>Peace<P>Nij

  

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el_rey
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5626 posts
Wed Feb-02-00 05:59 AM

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6. "Yeah, I thought the opposite as well"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When Saul asks:<BR>>"is there any way to speak <BR>>of that which is feminine without <BR>>having masculinity right in the middle <BR>>of it?". <P>I wasn't feelin it like <P> "damn, dude is basically <BR>>saying women can't exist without men."<P>but rather thought that he was asking the question like "look at these words. How can we change our approach to looking at gender without always having to come back to men? Look at how patriarchal language is structured. How can we invent new words, new ideas, new concepts that are more inclusive and life/woman affirming?"<P>I honestly think that it was more a comMENtary on the nature of patriarchy and how it MANifests in language. I thought that it was more of a call for us all to rethink the way we speak and relate to each other out of this framework.<P>love and respect,<BR>El Rey<P>"I prefer to speak of the impossible, because we already know too much about what is possible" Silvio Rodriguez<P>"If our profanity offends you, look around you and see how destructively society is profaning itself. It is the rape of the land, the pollution of the environment, the betrayal and suffering of the masses by corrupt government that is the real obscenity." - MOVE statement<P>FREE MUMIA!<BR>www.mumia.org<P>FREE THE MOVE 9!<BR>

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

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NazDak
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2168 posts
Thu Feb-03-00 08:24 PM

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9. "I say....."
In response to Reply # 0


          

He's ABSOLUTELY right!!! What is a woman without a man? WO. Thats what. Just WO. Whats a female without a male? FE. Plain old Fe. <BR> Peace,<BR> Nazzie<P>"I'm so ahead of my time, my parents havent met yet"--Big L (RIP)<BR> <BR> "PTHBT"--Maria<BR> <BR> Pick up ROOTS COME ALIVE!!! Available in either Single CD or Limited edition Enhanced Double CD. The First Live HipHop Album in almost 10 years...COP THAT!!!!<P>

Muzic Theory shall return!
www.muzictheory.com
www.myspace.com/muzictheory

  

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asighn4jane
Member since Jun 13th 2002
34 posts
Sat Feb-05-00 12:13 AM

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12. "ok naz if u want to put it thatta way"
In response to Reply # 9


          

what is female w/o male...<BR>just FE...<BR>what is FE...<BR>the chemical symbol of iron...<BR>what is iron...<BR>one of the strongest elements known to MAN...<BR>what is FE-MALE...<BR>=IRON MAN....<BR>again.. one of the strongest elements known to man<P>but hey, that's just one way to look at it, man<P><BR> -me jane.<P><BR>

  

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NazDak
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2168 posts
Sat Feb-05-00 07:16 AM

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13. "LOL....."
In response to Reply # 12


          

Shit....I failed chemistry bigtime, so I could have never been witty enough to think of that. At least SOMEBODY has a sense of humor though.<BR> Peace out "Iron Man"<BR> Nazzie<P>"I'm so ahead of my time, my parents havent met yet"--Big L (RIP)<BR> <BR> "PTHBT"--Maria<BR> <BR> Pick up ROOTS COME ALIVE!!! Available in either Single CD or Limited edition Enhanced Double CD. The First Live HipHop Album in almost 10 years...COP THAT!!!!<P>

Muzic Theory shall return!
www.muzictheory.com
www.myspace.com/muzictheory

  

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Tha_Rula

Mon Feb-07-00 09:34 PM

  
16. "Dammmmmmnnnnnnn"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Girl you broke that ish down wit pure knowledge, that "boy" has no idea what he's talkin bout,by his words it is plain to see that he is a mental infant!<P><P>"If I don't like it,I don't like it/doesn't mean that I'am hatin'"-Common

  

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TinkyWinky
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2726 posts
Tue Feb-08-00 02:18 PM

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19. "yep"
In response to Reply # 16


          

that "boy" has no <BR>>idea what he's talkin bout,by his <BR>>words it is plain to see <BR>>that he is a mental infant! <P>i'd have to say that's a pretty safe assessment of nazzie <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif"> (j/p dunn)<P><a href="http://www.thehungersite.com" target="_blank">http://www.thehungersite.com<;/a><P>"I ain't no goddamn son of a bitch--you'd better think about it, baby!"<BR> --Glenn Danzig (Misfits)<P>"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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heaven7
Member since Jul 06th 2002
1 posts
Fri Feb-04-00 11:08 AM

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10. "well i hope y'all are right"
In response to Reply # 0


          

cause spirit, that's what i was getting too. but after reading the responses i kind of agree with improv, nesta, quinn, and adamant. i think i took it the wrong way and these guys seem to have got it. i'm glad it got cleared up in my head.<P>and naz, i hope that was just some kind of sick, idiotic,not funny joke and not the way you really think. if you do, go get your head checked.<P>ASALAAM ALAYKUM<BR>heaven<P>"self preservation is a full-time occupation..." ani

  

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bfnh
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35708 posts
Fri Feb-04-00 11:20 AM

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11. "anybody notice...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

<P>the play on imagery - what is "without having man right in the middle of it?" think of that. let it make a mental picture. that's on some ol' appreciation/ sexual ish right der. but maybe it's just me.<P>the album (including left & right) is a testament to the anti misoginy that is running crazy in testosterone filled hiphop. <P>peace to the woman who can rock a crowd and still show she is beautiful enough to smile at the end, i wait for her to bring us back to where we should be. <P>maybe it's just me, but it seems that people are insecure these days. <BR>_______________________________________<BR>what exactly does bfnh mean to you?<BR>yeah yeah yeah, h8r blah blah dot blah com

--
http://at.yamomzcrib.com </3 http://yourmomisclubbin.com </3 http://hoesinthesameclothes.tumblr.com

  

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SAVIR

Sat Feb-05-00 02:29 PM

  
14. "WORDS....."
In response to Reply # 0


          

P.E.A.C.E.<P>oppress full true expression and we need a new langauge to free us. I agree with Improv & Adamant that when Saul speaks of the male and the female he is showing U how words can be oppressive. This is the meaning I got and the meaning that is real to me when I write. I never have and probally never will write something that is capable of conveying my full true expression and thats why I agree with Saul that we need a new langauge to free our word oppressed expression.<P>@ONE

  

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spirit
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Mon Feb-07-00 08:12 PM

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15. "Peace all"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

I found all of the responses in this thread very enlightening. I have seen Saul Williams perform (at an open mic I co-sponsored in DC actually) and I think he is one of the most talented poets of our generation. The words in the liner notes disturbed me, however. <P>Some quick comments...<P>Naz noted (perhaps jokingly) that without "man" woman is "only wo". HOWEVER, without "woman", <BR>"man" does not exist at all. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif"><P>The sister who pointed out "fe" is "iron" made a poignant statement. I'll store that in my poetic database.<P>Nesta, I certainly see your point. You are a "glass is half full" optimistic type of brother. I like that. I vacillate b/t pessimism and optimism.<P>Because Saul is such a great artist, I will adopt Nesta's interpretation and assume that Saul's intent was indeed satirical. His mind works on so many levels, sometimes it's hard to know exactly what his intent was...and I went on face value. <P>The liner notes, like most of Saul's works, was brilliantly written.<P>To the poster who suggest I read "S/he", that is on my to-do list.<P>To those who are interested, I was an extra in Saul's movie "Slam". I doubt you will be able to recognize me in the film unless I point myself out to you, because my head is cut out of the shot. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif"><P>(I am standing, while the other folks in the shot are sitting...I was in the outdoor scene where DJ Renegade read...if you haven't read DJ Renegade's poetry, you're missing out...also, please please please check for Ernesto ...excellent poet, straight from DC. Toni Lightfoot is bad too)<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...<P>"High grade when I create beats/if I don't get signed/I'ma be the most dope bum that ever walked the streets" - <BR>Aychell (HL, of Khemystery)<P>"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a tool of the conspiracy" - unknown

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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Nesta
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7130 posts
Tue Feb-08-00 02:49 AM

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17. "Well actually......."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

<BR>>Nesta, I certainly see your point. You <BR>>are a "glass is half full" <BR>>optimistic type of brother. I like <BR>>that. I vacillate b/t pessimism and <BR>>optimism. <BR>>Because Saul is such a great artist, <BR>>I will adopt Nesta's interpretation and <BR>>assume that Saul's intent was indeed <BR>>satirical. <P>Well thank you for adopting my interpretation. But just for the rrecord. I'm one of the most cynical and pessimistic cats you'll ever are to me. Just wanted to clear that up. I don't want any rumors getting stated. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><P>Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and bitch-slap the motherfucker upside the head...

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

  

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elena

Tue Feb-08-00 11:50 AM

  
18. "faith"
In response to Reply # 15


          

I'd also like to point out, since we're talking about language-- "fe" is also spanish for "faith"<BR>It's what I meant when I said earlier that the world is something else in a different tongue. All the arguments we've made about male and female in this string have been in one language...how limited is that? Just a thought.

  

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