Hi,<P>I'm new to this site and I'm asking the question because the Roots are not known for having predominantly black audiences @ their concerts and shows (please correct me if I'm wrong). Looking @ the tour schedule though, I can't imagine that the average young black male (or female) is interested in seeing Everlast. Granted, Lauryn Hill is popular within the black community but, if her concert @ the Garden is any indication, a majority of the tickets available will be sold to upper middle class white fans. <P>To be honest, I'm more partial to the Snipes argument than the Denzel one (intro to TFA), particularly when it comes to the lack of black support for the Roots....so maybe I'm biased. While I think the music is quality and I buy your albums, I also believe the Roots had failed to connect with the average black hip hop fan (particularly the "roundtheway" type) in the way that other artists have (though that's improving). And this is sad because it's critical that the general black audience has exposure to a variety of sounds. <P>I'm from NY and I've seen the Roots @ Tramps. I'm not sure where else the group has played but using that spot as an example, it is hardly a venue that is popular within the black community (that I know of). The show was advertised in the Voice but I never saw any fliers or ads in common ghetto spots in BK or uptown. The same can't be said for Bad boy artists, Fat Joe & his clique, or even Juvenile when he came to the BX to perform. After being surrounded by a sea of white faces and continuously bumped into by some retro hip hop kid and his nonrhythm having self, I'm hard pressed to see another show @ that venue. I'm way too old for & not a fan of the Tunnel but atleast there a sistah can find a black dance partner. There's a social aspect/black celebration to hip hop shows (and black events in general) that is important. There are a lot of blacks that I know who are uncomfortable or simply don't want to deal with white folks on a social level. Maybe that's wrong, but I notice that the vibe of a function changes as the number of blacks decrease. <P>Now I don't necessarily expect the Roots to tour with JayZ (for example), nor do I know if that's possible, but why not? I remember, a long time ago, seeing PE, Naughty By Nature, Geto Boys, LL (I think) and a bunch of other acts @ a concert @ the Garden. Those are very different groups with very different messages but they all rocked an audience full of people with faces that looked like theirs. <P>I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.<P>Thanks & for the record, I'm over 25 and came up in this.

I really think people all the roots gather around and look at maps and conspire not to visit certain areas. I think people think the Roots schedule all their bookings.<P>"WHY DON'T THE ROOTS EVER COME TO MY TOWN?? THEY ARE SO PREJUDICED AGAINST *insert town here*"<P>I get that a lot. (hence the text at the bottom of the tourdates page..and the reason I deflected all those e-mails to erich... <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> )<P>Anyone familiar with the rap /booking agent / promoter game....feel free to jump in.<P>angieee ('stress)

> While I <BR>>think the music is quality and <BR>>I buy your albums, I also <BR>>believe the Roots had failed to <BR>>connect with the average black hip <BR>>hop fan (particularly the "roundtheway" type) <BR>>in the way that other artists <BR>>have (though that's improving). And <BR>>this is sad because it's critical <BR>>that the general black audience has <BR>>exposure to a variety of sounds. <P>It's not the Roots fault that the "roundtehway" type doesn't listen to their music. HOT97 is the offical station of "roundtheway" types here in NY and with the exception of You Got Me (Flex played Adrenaline on the mix for a little bit before TFA dropped), they will never play the Roots. They will play Jay-Z, Puff, Ja Rule, Memphis Bleek etc. forty times a day. And surprise, surprise! guess who "roundtheway" types lsiten to at home, in their cars, etc. HOT97 won't play Common. They barely play Blacks Star. So if the Roots are to reach "roundtheway" types they would have to either <BR>1.) make different music so music programmers at the HOT97s of the world would put them on. If they ever do that they will definitely lose me as a fan. or 2.)the HOT 97s of the world could get their acts together and play better and/or more diverse music and recognize that what the Roots do is dope hip-hop too and quite frankly much better than 95% of the crap they play (I doubt that will happen). And if "roundtheway" types don't have msucial influences outside of HOT97, the chances they would be into the Roots is slim anyway! ALL HOT97 kills your musical growth!<P>>I'm from NY and I've seen the <BR>>Roots @ Tramps. I'm not <BR>>sure where else the group has <BR>>played but using that spot as <BR>>an example, it is hardly a <BR>>venue that is popular within the <BR>>black community (that I know of). <P>Where did you get that from? I've seen D'Angelo, Groove Theory (2), Teena Marie, P-Funk, Goodie Mob, Outkast (2), The Roots (2)(of course), The Fugees, Wyclef, etc. at Tramps and the shows have always been sold out and been AT LEAST 80% black! Tramps is one of the best venues in NYC to see shows, period!<P>> The show was advertised in <BR>>the Voice but I never saw <BR>>any fliers or ads in common <BR>>ghetto spots in BK or uptown. <BR>> The same can't be said <BR>>for Bad boy artists, Fat <BR>>Joe & his clique, or even <BR>>Juvenile when he came to the <BR>>BX to perform. <P>You can't really compare the two. Come on! The Voice is free in Manhattan and Brooklyn. it gets a lot of circulation. Yes, maybe headz up in the Marcy projects aren't picking it up. Bad Boy shows are being promoted on HOT97 (radio ads cost$$$) and are being put on by big promoters that only use venues like the garden. Allen Heyman (he does a lot of the big concerts on the East Cost, Boyz II Men, etc.) is not trying to do a Roots show. Fat Joe & Company live in the Bronx of course headz know about them.<P>>After being surrounded <BR>>by a sea of white faces <BR>>and continuously bumped into by <BR>>some retro hip hop kid and <BR>>his nonrhythm having self, I'm hard <BR>>pressed to see another show @ <BR>>that venue. I'm way too old <BR>>for & not a fan of <BR>>the Tunnel but atleast there a <BR>>sistah can find a black dance <BR>>partner. There's a social aspect/black celebration <BR>>to hip hop shows (and black <BR>>events in general) that is important.<P>Well maybe it's an age thing. Cause you couldn't pay me to go to "Frank Perdue Appreciation Night" at the Tunnel! Black kids in the projects are not the only Black folks that listen to hip-hop and come to shows (I know that's not what you're trying to say). The range of Blacks that listen to hiphop and go to shows is broad! And I must ask again, "What shows are you going to at Tramps? Did you see Goodie and Outkast there? Or Goodie and The Roots or Teena Marie or P-Funk or D'Ang or The Fugees? because those nights, to name a few, there was nothing but folks in there getting down for real like a quarter party in "Cooley high" or a rent Party on "Good Times". Plus those shows sell out crazy quick and they always end up adding shows!<P><BR>> There are a lot of <BR>>blacks that I know who are <BR>>uncomfortable or simply don't want to <BR>>deal with white folks on a <BR>>social level. Maybe that's wrong, but <BR>>I notice that the vibe of <BR>>a function changes as the number <BR>>of blacks decrease. <BR>>Now I don't necessarily expect the Roots <BR>>to tour with JayZ (for example), <BR>>nor do I know if that's <BR>>possible, but why not? <P>THE ROOTS ARE NOT CONCERT PROMOTERS (?uest you can thank me later)!!! People ask them to perform. They do not put on tours! <P>I'm not trying to argue witcha but I see a different NYC. Some of your points are probably more valid in other markets. <P><P>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>

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"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate other povs....<P>>It's not the Roots fault that the "roundtehway" type doesn't listen to their music. HOT97 is the <BR>>offical station of "roundtheway" types here in NY and with the exception of You Got Me (Flex played <BR>>Adrenaline on the mix for a little bit before TFA dropped), they will never play the Roots. <P>Ummm...Hot97 has not always existed. The same types of people from around the way that managed to find good hip hop pre Hot97 can find it again IF it is accessible to them and IF it appeals to them. <P>Hot97 plays what they're paid off to play and also what is "hot" which tends to be party type tracks. Hip hop has a foundation in party music and its clear that those songs (whatever style of music) are the first to have pop (meaning popular) appeal. But Hot97 is not the only avenue available to artists and demand (radio is a business) will make them play whatever is popular. Also groups like NWA and all of No Limit blew up without major radio support @ all in the beginning.<P>>"roundtheway" types don't have msucial influences <BR>>outside of HOT97, the chances they would be into the Roots is slim anyway! <P>Don't sleep or underestimate people aroundtheway. They are the ones who gave us hip hop in the first place. There needs to be more balance & diversity in the types of music we ALL listen too. Also, I don't claim to know the agenda of the Roots but if education of our people is what is important then wouldn't you agree that preaching to the converted is not what's needed? The people that may need to hear it most are not being exposed to them. <P>>Tramps and the shows have always been sold <BR>>out and been AT LEAST 80% black! Tramps is one of the best venues in NYC to see shows, period! <P>I've seen the Roots twice and Blackstarr once (definetly not an 80% black crowd). I also saw the outkast & the mob and Black moon, and I'll have to sit & really think about who else because I've seen a lot of shows in my life. Tramps is not known to be a "black club" in NY - I would bet the average black person in NY doesn't know where it is. The location and where its promoted does not lend itself to being a high profile spot in the black community. The Village Voice simply isn't going to cut it since you can't get the voice @ most stores in BK, the Bx or uptown in the black neighborhoods. I don't know where you live but I live in Bedsty, if westindian acts on bullshit labels & those clubs can put fliers in damn near every chinese food joint & garbage can on Malcolm X - and sell out shows, then I'm sure there are different tactics besides Hot97 available for promotion. <P>>Well maybe it's an age thing cause you couldn't pay me to go to "Frank Perdue Appreciation Night" <BR>>at the Tunnel! Black kids in the projects are not the only Black folks that listen to hip-hop and come to shows (I know that's not what you're trying to >say). The range of Blacks that listen to hiphop and go to shows is broad! <P>A lot of the kids that go to the tunnel don't live in the projects (shit a lot of them aren't even kids). I'm over 25...I'll put it like this, I saw Eric B & Rakim @ Union Square (they shot up the spot) so my club experience goes waaayyyy back....<img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">. I think we have a problem when different types of black people can't find a way to come together and each "crowd" feels better than the other...we have enough disunity. If I can't be around my own kind then what's the point? I think hip hop is supposed to be what bonds us and there's a way to satisfy a variety of different tastes without breaking off into different cliques. <P>>THE ROOTS ARE NOT CONCERT PROMOTERS (?uest <BR>you can thank me later)!!! People ask them to perform. They do not put on tours! <P>That's why I asked the question...I was hoping to get some idea of how it works. So here's my question, is it the responsibility of conscious black artists to make sure their work reaches the grassroots people? Not necessarily saying that the Roots are "conscious", claim to be, or should have that agenda. Are you saying that black artists like the Roots have no control over where they play, who they are marketed to, and who gets to hear them?<BR>

Thanks for the comments!!! here are some more morcels for ya!<P>>Ummm...Hot97 has not always existed. The same <BR>>types of people from around the <BR>>way that managed to find <BR>>good hip hop pre Hot97 can <BR>>find it again IF it is <BR>>accessible to them and IF it <BR>>appeals to them. <P>First off I'm 27!! The Hip-Hop game has changed COMPLETELY over the last, let's say, six years ( I believe that HOT 97 went all hip-hop and R&B in 93). The level of exposure that multiple hip-hop artists are getting now is unprecedented. Puffy in GQ with Seinfeld, Jay-Z at Madison Square Garden getting louder applause than, Spike, Woody, Tyra, and Billy Baldwin. Sting and everyone else tyrying to do stuff w/Puffy, L-Boogie everywhere, Missy producing everyone, the way MTV plays so much hip-hop. <P>These things are light years different from the way things used to be with regards to hip-hop. The only group in the past that got mad mainstream play was RUN DMC and they were not running things behind the scenes like Puff, Jay-Z, Missy, L-Boogie, etc. <P>In the past if you wanted to listen to ANY hip-hop you had to work to hear it. You had to stay up late and listen to Mr. Magic or Marley Marl and make a "pause" tape to get what you need and satisfy your fix. <P>TODAY, you get hip-hop the second you step out your door, turn on your radio or TV. It might not be the hip-hop I want to hear all the time, but it's infinitely more accessible than it was even 7 or 8 years ago And as far as "accessible music" goes, the Roots make music for headz that love hip-hop and are into music. I firmly beleive that they would be more popular if outlets like MTV and the HOT97s of the world would play them more. Kids would be more exposed to them and would have more options besides money, hoes, scrubs and pigeons. <P>>Hot97 plays what they're paid off to <BR>>play and also what is "hot" <BR>>which tends to be party type <BR>>tracks. Hip hop has a foundation <BR>>in party music and its clear <BR>>that those songs (whatever style of <BR>>music) are the first to have <BR>>pop (meaning popular) appeal. But Hot97 <BR>>is not the only avenue available <BR>>to artists and demand (radio is <BR>>a business) will make them play <BR>>whatever is popular. Also groups <BR>>like NWA and all of No <BR>>Limit blew up without major radio <BR>>support @ all in the beginning. <P>Again, the game has changed, NWA and Too Short did their thing without radio because they didn't need it and had such a strong local following. However, they were not competing with MTV playing Jay-z, Puffy, jermaine Dupri, Destiny's Child, TLC, Brandy, and Naughty by Nature back to back all day. tehre was no BOX TV and stations like HOT97 playing hip-hop all day did not exist. The climate was completely different. Radio Stations were completely anti-hip-hop during the day. So that made groups like NWA that much more appealing. No Limt blew up with a strong regional following, but look at them now, I can't get away from them.<P>>>"roundtheway" types don't have msucial influences <BR>>>outside of HOT97, the chances they would be into the Roots is slim anyway! <P>I said (or I meant), IF (please check the post) "roundtheway" don't have musical influences outside of mainstream music....And I firmly beleive this. I am from "roundtheway" and I grew up with a multitude of musical influences. I'm around these kids everyday and if you asked any of these kids to identify Donny Hathaway, Parliament, Patrice Rushen, Bob James, Herbie Hancock, etc. they wouldn't have a clue, but they know every song that used one of their samples. When we grew up we were exposed to more music than these kids because radio wasn't as segmented. I feel, and it's pretty much proven by the posts on this board, that headz that dig the Roots, Common, Blackstar, etc. have many musical tatses and influences. The Roots, I feel, reflect their musical influences in what they do.<P>>Don't sleep or underestimate people aroundtheway. <BR>>They are the ones who gave <BR>>us hip hop in the first <BR>>place. There needs to be more <BR>>balance & diversity in the types <BR>>of music we ALL listen too. <P>I don't sleep on the "folks" but they are being brainwashed their avenues of choice are severely diminshed and they are presented with few options. When hip-hop wasn't as mainstream the headz that really loved it had to work so hard to get it, the music kinda checked itself. but now it's like going to the supermarket and buying bread. If you can go around the corner and get bread, why would you walk three miles and wait for five hours to buy bread? That's human nature!<P>> Also, I don't claim to <BR>>know the agenda of the Roots <BR>>but if education of our people <BR>>is what is important then wouldn't <BR>>you agree that preaching to the <BR>>converted is not what's needed? The <BR>>people that may need to hear <BR>>it most are not being exposed <BR>>to them. <P>The Roots don't need to teach (go get KRS for that), they need to contine to make good music and that'll talk for them. I don't feel that they're preaching to anyone! Do you suggest they change what they do and add some references to money and hos? I don't get it! people have to want too learn oe want to have varying experiences. I'm a jazz fiend! When I go to Sweet Basil or the Vanguard or to Small's or Dharma to see a traditonal jazz act, it's nothing but asian and white folks and me. But if I walk by the Blue Note and George Howard or Kenny G or some other smooth jazz act is at the Blue Note, I trip over black folks. If they want to listen to Kenny G bullshit it's on them. Not Ron Carter or Roy Hargrove or Greg Osby, etc.<P>Tramps is <BR>>not known to be a "black <BR>>club" in NY - I would <BR>>bet the average black person in <BR>>NY doesn't know where it is. <P>We must go to different shows! Because I've never been to hip-hop shows in NY, regardless of who's performing, where the crowd wasn't majority or overwhelmingly black. Yeah headz in the Bronx know the fever, but not many headz are going there period! headz come throough the Apollo every once in awhile. Where are the places that teh Roots don't play but everyone else does? help me?<P>1.) What is a black venue in NYC? Nuyoricans? The Beacon Theatre? The only BLACK venue in NYC that I know of is The Apollo! This is NY, headz play anywhere and everywhere. Is the garden a black venue, the paramount? Headz know the garden because it's Madison Square Garden. <P>> The location and where its <BR>>promoted does not lend itself to <BR>>being a high profile spot in <BR>>the black community. The Village <BR>>Voice simply isn't going to cut <BR>>it since you can't get the <BR>>voice @ most stores in BK, <BR>>the Bx or uptown in the <BR>>black neighborhoods. I don't know <BR>>where you live but I live <BR>>in Bedsty, if westindian acts on <BR>>bullshit labels & those clubs can <BR>>put fliers in damn near every <BR>>chinese food joint & garbage can <BR>>on Malcolm X - and sell <BR>>out shows, then I'm sure there <BR>>are different tactics besides Hot97 available <BR>>for promotion. <P>You can't be comparing Tabou Combo or Stone Love or some local heroes' promotions to the Roots. Very segmented audiences and hell Stone Love better put posters up in Bed Stuy if they want anyone to show up! <P>>A lot of the kids that go <BR>>to the tunnel don't live in <BR>>the projects (shit a lot of <BR>>them aren't even kids). I'm <BR>>over 25...I'll put it like this, <BR>>I saw Eric B & Rakim <BR>>@ Union Square (they shot up <BR>>the spot) so my club experience <BR>>goes waaayyyy back..... <P>Again, the game has changed so much!!!!<P>I think <BR>>we have a problem when different <BR>>types of black people can't find <BR>>a way to come together and <BR>>each "crowd" feels better than the <BR>>other...we have enough disunity. If I <BR>>can't be around my own kind <BR>>then what's the point? I <BR>>think hip hop is supposed to <BR>>be what bonds us and there's <BR>>a way to satisfy a variety <BR>>of different tastes without breaking off <BR>>into different cliques. <P>This is not cliquish! If someone wwants to hear Bone, thugs , Harmony, more power to them, but I'm not paying money to see them (hell, I wouldn't go for free). If someone thinks that smooth jazz is crap, there's now ay too make that bond. Folks decide what they like and don't like. Ofcourse, the differences won't always be so severe.<P>>That's why I asked the question...I was <BR>>hoping to get some idea of <BR>>how it works. So here's my <BR>>question, is it the responsibility of <BR>>conscious black artists to make sure <BR>>their work reaches the grassroots people? <BR>>Not necessarily saying that the Roots <BR>>are "conscious", claim to be, or <BR>>should have that agenda. Are <BR>>you saying that black artists like <BR>>the Roots have no control over <BR>>where they play, who they are <BR>>marketed to, and who gets to <BR>>hear them? <P>The only way the Roots are gonna be able to completely control where they play is to become promoters and book their own tours. Some folsk do that. Thier names are Whitney, Micheal Jackson, etc. the Hard Knock Tour was that as well. Jay-z put his shit together and took like six other acts with him. Could the Roots do this? I guess tehcnically they could, but it probably wouldn't make good business sense for them (I dunno). Record companies run the marketing, unless you are a big shot that can fuss and tell them what, whenn and how. The Roots were supposed to have another single and the label told them that the album was dead. That's it. you're album is dead. Have a nice day!<P>This is too damn long! Sorry y'all! <P>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>

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"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

I must say that both Nesta and Nayhmsa have valid points. Though I must tell you now that Too Short and NWA may have not had major run on the East, but they got love all over the west. I am sure it was like that with the No Limit headz too. Not saying they didn't do their dirty work with the hand to hand sales, but in their respective areas they did get luv, which does not hurt one bit. Now, in terms of the crowds, I personally notice the large abundance of white folks at the show. Some are deep into hiphop others are one some ol retro-LimpBizkut type shit and are ready to slam dance at the drop of a dime. I want the crowds to go back to the old form of Respond and react type shit with the performer, no matter what the crowd. Though I must say a crowd having rhythm does help especially when you are lookin to get ya groove on. So, Nahymsa I am also one who gets mad tired of a bunch of no-rhythm havin types bouncin all up on me. Have the time these cats are drugged up which puts their coordination P decline from it's original state. Peace to you all collectively, FreeZ<P> " But what did ya mam name you ?" - people who meet FreeZ

I like the way you think but I have to disagree <P>>First off I'm 27!! <BR>So we're in the same age range. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> <P>>The Hip-Hop game has changed COMPLETELY...The level of exposure that multiple hip-hop artists are getting now is unprecedented. <P>True, but inherent in hip hop is competition...the game is still the same in that sense. Using No Limit as an example, P had to compete with MTV, stations that play hip hop regularly in their rotation and way more access to a variety hip hop music by the general public. Yet he developed a strong regional following that transfered into a national/international one. What P did is very "hip hop" in the sense of grassroots appeal and his approach to promoting his "music". He created a demand and then the demand took on a life of its own. many of his original fans are loyal and will buy No Limit no matter what...and he's doing all of this with music that's not all that "sophisticated" (which is not a comment on whether or not its good...i have my own ideas on what makes good music)<P>>And as far as "accessible music" goes, the Roots <BR>make music for headz that love hip-hop and are into music. I firmly beleive that they would be more popular if outlets like MTV and the HOT97s of the world would play them more. <P>I love hip hop & all types of music...but I like a variety of hip hop styles including everything from bass to "underground" ish. I think that the Roots would eventually have MTV & Hot97 coming to them if they had a majority of the black audience FIRST..eventually the rest will catch on as usual. <P>>I am from "roundtheway" and I grew up with a multitude of musical influences. I'm around these kids everyday and if you asked any of these kids to identify Donny Hathaway, Parliament, Patrice Rushen, Bob James, Herbie Hancock, etc. they wouldn't have a clue, but they know every song that used one of their samples.When hip-hop wasn't as mainstream the headz that really loved it had to work so hard to get it, the music kinda checked itself. but now it's like going to the supermarket and buying bread. If you can go around the corner and get bread, why would you walk three miles and wait for five hours to buy bread? That's human nature! <P>Maybe I'm biased because I came up in NY but I don't recall working that hard to get hip hop - my cousins down south, now that's another story. I think GOOD music will travel..that's exactly what hip hop did....that's its story. If black people had to rely on white radio alone to get our music out we'd have been lost. <P><BR>>The Roots don't need to teach (go get KRS for that), they need to contine to make good music <BR>>and that'll talk for them. I don't feel that they're preaching to anyone! Do you suggest they change what they do and add some references to money and hos? <P>I suggest that groups (like Blackstarr) that promote black nationalism make an extreme effort to appeal to average black folk. It doesn't mean they have to talk about money & hoes...I refuse to believe that most of us are so simple minded that we HAVE to HAVE those references. Lauryn Hill & the Fugees get blasted throughout the pjs they aren't talking about any of that. I do think that you can't have contempt for an audience while trying to reach them...meaning if you feel that people are beneath you, then they will sense that and act accordingly (the Fugees played the Tunnel & got respect). I wasn't necessarily looking to learn anything from PE when I first heard them, the beats & the flow made me pay attention. Chuck D said that his mission was to teach the bourgeoise & rock the boulevard for a reason. <P>>When I go to Sweet Basil or the Vanguard or to Small's or Dharma to see a traditonal jazz act, it's nothing but asian and white folks and me. <P>There's how many years late? When it was contemporary black culture we were there. While I think we could benefit from preserving our heritage and get rid of this disposable art mentality, I also recognize that our ability & need to take pieces from the past & use them with our current forms of expression is what keeps us in the forefront of musical creation. We don't wallow in or cling to dying art (as some do, which is why they can't create their own music)...we move on. I mean, for example, you're not out their doing the Lindy hop in 99' are you? <P>>We must go to different shows! Because I've never been to hip-hop shows in NY, regardless of who's <BR>performing, where the crowd wasn't majority or overwhelmingly black. <P>THe 2 Roots shows I attended weren't...neither was the Rock Steady anniversary "overwhelmingly" black. <P>Granted it is harder to see a show nowadays because their is a definete bias towards hip hop shows with predominantly black audiences. EVERYBODY plays the Tunnel. By black venue, I mean a spot that is heavily promoted to a black audience...most clubs in NY (hip hop or not) are not black owned. <BR>><P>>You can't be comparing Tabou Combo or Stone Love or some local heroes' promotions to the Roots.<P>Ummm...why not? I mean being local heroes is the whole point right? I know who Stone Love is in part BECAUSE I couldn't help but notice their stuff all over the place. Fat Joe got notoriety putting his stickers up all over the ghetto. BCC throws a cookout for everybody in Albany projects. The Roots are not from NY so I wouldn't expect them to be here and I can't speak on their local activity in Philly (I'm sure they do what they can) but you get my point. <P>>This is not cliquish! If someone wants to hear Bone, thugs , Harmony, more power to them, but I'm not paying money to see them (hell, I wouldn't go for free). <P>I think the distinctions: real head, commercial head, underground, etc. are destructive...if you like hip hop you like hip hop. Maybe the music scene has grown to a point where hip hop styles have to be divided into categories but then we should expect that joints that rock the blockparties & clubs will always have more appeal than those that don't. Ha would have blew up regardless of the emcee on the track or what was being said. Rhythm drives hip hop (imo)and things go in cycles. <P>>The only way the Roots are gonna be able to completely control where they play is to become promoters and book their own tours. <P>You would probably know better than me. Question, where do rap artists make the majority of their dough. I know touring used to be what paid but I'm sure that's changed now. <P>Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Just for the record, I love the Roots & love their music, I just don't want to see them with Everlast (or the crowd that Everlast will surely bring). <P>

If anything? Just curious. I'd much rather listen to Everlast than Jay Z, Puffy, or Master P. Maybe, it's just me. <P><BR>"If I ever went solo, my favorite MC would be me" - Phife Diggy

To the kind fellow who posted he'd rather listen to everlast than Jay Z...hmmm. Everlast hasn't been living up to his emcee potential lately IMO. He seems to have fallen into the "Lauryn Hill syndrome", i.e. instead of pouring all their creativity into their emceeing (like, say, Pharoah Monch does), they decide to do something else (string, strum guitar) and funnel most of their creativity into that, which annoys me a little, because while it's good to see people explore new avenues, I don't think the artform of emceeing has been fully explored yet. They're leaving the party early IMO.<P>I still think Jay Z is a dope emcee, stylewise, even though I probably wouldn't buy his records, because what he talks about (i.e. his song content) bores me.<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

>True, but inherent in hip hop is <BR>>competition...the game is still the same <BR>>in that sense. Using No Limit <BR>>as an example, P had to <BR>>compete with MTV, stations that play <BR>>hip hop regularly in their rotation <BR>>and way more access to a <BR>>variety hip hop music by the <BR>>general public. Yet he developed <BR>>a strong regional following that transfered <BR>>into a national/international one. What <BR>>P did is very "hip hop" <BR>>in the sense of grassroots appeal <BR>>and his approach to promoting his <BR>>"music". He created a <BR>>demand and then the demand took <BR>>on a life of its own. <BR>> many of his original fans <BR>>are loyal and will buy No <BR>>Limit no matter what...and he's doing <BR>>all of this with music that's <BR>>not all that "sophisticated" (which is <BR>>not a comment on whether or <BR>>not its good...i have my own <BR>>ideas on what makes good music) <P>You ignore the fact that Master P was almost a completely regional (albeit sucessful) act UNTIL he got on MTV (and BET) and blew up nationally and internationally. That's when everyone and his mom got a deal on his label and started blowing up. More people in the NY area had his movie than his album! Of course hip-hop is competitive always was, always will be.<BR>><P>>I love hip hop & all types <BR>>of music...but I like a variety <BR>>of hip hop styles including everything <BR>>from bass to "underground" ish. <BR>>I think that the Roots would <BR>>eventually have MTV & Hot97 coming <BR>>to them if they had a <BR>>majority of the black audience FIRST..eventually <BR>>the rest will catch on as <BR>>usual. <P>Well, I don't care about hip-hop "styles". If it's good I buy it! End of story! So it could be Jigga, the Roots, Mobb deep, or Outkast and I think most headz on this board are the same way. I will admit that many so-called undeground cats abandon some artists as soon as they blow up, but most headz support artisits putting out good creative shit. <P>It doesn't follow that you have to get a black audience FIRST! Then you're not making music, you're making some marketing product! How do you know when you're creating music taht "HEY THIS IS BLACK PEOPLE MUSIC, THEY"LL LIKE IT" Let's take Prince for example. Prince's music when he first came out is and was more "BLACKER" than 99% of this so-called rap and Bullshit we hear, but radio stations and black music listeners thought he was making music for white folks. He never changed his style to satisfy black radio and so-called black tastes, but eventually evryone came to their senses. He still has a very mixed race following, but Black folk were not trying to hear him until he became commercial accepted with Purple Rain! In that case Black folks caught on late! Black folks still won't give Lenny Kravitz or Ben Harper or Alana Davis or Seal any love. But their music is more soulful and more rooted in the history and tradition of Rhytm and Blues then most of the stuff we are forced to listen to on the radio and TV.<P>Secondly, there are plenty of groups around the country that have black followings that don't get played on HOT97 for various reasons like regional bias! Outkast and Goodie Mob are perfect examples. they are a group that's regionally strong and sell records nationally and most of their fans are black. The Roots, Goodie show I went to was almost all Black, yet they can't get played on HOT97 and it's not because they don't have black fans or think their on a higher level of hip-hop. Music programmers make bullshit decisions that have a wide ranging affect on the music.<P><BR>>Maybe I'm biased because I came up <BR>>in NY but I don't recall <BR>>working that hard to get hip <BR>>hop - my cousins down south, <BR>>now that's another story. I <BR>>think GOOD music will travel..that's exactly <BR>>what hip hop did....that's its story. <BR>> If black people had to <BR>>rely on white radio alone to <BR>>get our music out we'd have <BR>>been lost. <P>I grew up in Newark and listened to the same stations you did. Let me refresh your memory. Rap was never played during the day (with a few exceptions) on Kiss, WBLS, and WKTU! only on the late night mix. Yeah we had it alot better than other places but it was nothing like now!<BR>And back in the olden days they weren;t called"Race Recrds" for nothingwhites owned radio stations catered strictly for backs just like the same white company owns HOT 97 and KISS.<P>>I suggest that groups (like Blackstarr) that <BR>>promote black nationalism make an extreme <BR>>effort to appeal to average black <BR>>folk. It doesn't mean they <BR>>have to talk about money & <BR>>hoes...I refuse to believe that most <BR>>of us are so simple minded <BR>>that we HAVE to HAVE those <BR>>references. <P>What more do they have to do to appeal to average black folks? Answer me this!!! How many "average" black folks are pushing Mercedes Benzes and rocking Diamond Rings and wearing custom made Diamond Links and $1000 shoes from Donna Karan? Not many! How many "average" black people will acquire a tenth of the material goods that get talked about in some rap songs? Not many! How many "average" black folks are smugglin' 10 kilos of coke from Coulmbia? Not many! How many "average" black folks are out there busting caps in niggas asses everyday? Not many, but I'll be damn if those aren't the songs they're listening to. Don't get me wrong I love Mob Deep, Wu, kool G rap, etc and know all the words by heart. But is this what you mean by talking to the average black? <P>That's the irony of what you said! Blackstar does speak to the everyday man, but they don't seem to be listening Groups like Blackstar make the records, they show up at Lyricist lounge or Black Lily or Rock Steady, they promote when and where the market allows them to. If Rawkus doesn't arrange to have them sign albums at Virgin Megastore in Union Square or at HMV on 72nd it won't happen. But I betcha Virgina and HMV were calling the label to get Lauryn to come do a signing!<P>Lauryn Hill & the Fugees <BR>>get blasted throughout the pjs they <BR>>aren't talking about any of that. <BR>> I do think that <BR>>you can't have contempt for an <BR>>audience while trying to reach them...meaning <BR>>if you feel that people are <BR>>beneath you, then they will sense <BR>>that and act accordingly (the Fugees <BR>>played the Tunnel & got respect). <P>Obviously i'm not in the band so they can answer that directly if they want, but nothing I ever heard or seen suggested that the Roots had contempt for their audience or made it seem that they thought they were better than their audience. However, they want to be able to make the music they feel and still get the opportunity to represent "hip-hop" the way other groups do. they don't want to be shut out of the game just because they play instruments, don't use the same sample on five different records, jack hits from the 80's, etc.<P>>There's how many years late? When <BR>>it was contemporary black culture we <BR>>were there. While I think we <BR>>could benefit from preserving our heritage <BR>>and get rid of this disposable <BR>>art mentality, I also recognize that <BR>>our ability & need to take <BR>>pieces from the past & use <BR>>them with our current forms of <BR>>expression is what keeps us in <BR>>the forefront of musical creation. We <BR>>don't wallow in or cling to <BR>>dying art (as some do, which <BR>>is why they can't create their <BR>>own music)...we move on. I mean, <BR>>for example, you're not out their <BR>>doing the Lindy hop in 99' <BR>>are you? <P>SORRY, black folks NEVER really supported traditonal jazz. It was better than it is now! But pick up any jazz history book or (auto)biography and the evidence is on every page. In fact blacks gave jazz so little love that many of the jazz greats tstayed in Europe for exteneded times just to make a living. And jazz's niggest benefactors then and now were Jews!<P>>>We must go to different shows! Because I've never been to hip-hop shows in NY, regardless of who's <BR>>performing, where the crowd wasn't majority or overwhelmingly black. <P>>THe 2 Roots shows I attended weren't...neither <BR>>was the Rock Steady anniversary "overwhelmingly" <BR>>black. <BR>>Granted it is harder to see a show nowadays because their is a definete bias towards hip hop shows with predominantly black audiences. EVERYBODY plays the Tunnel. By black venue, I mean a spot that is heavily promoted to a black audience...most clubs in NY (hip hop or not) are not black owned. <BR>>><P>>>You can't be comparing Tabou Combo or Stone Love or some local heroes' promotions to the Roots.<P>>Ummm...why not? I mean being local <BR>>heroes is the whole point right? <BR>> I know who Stone Love <BR>>is in part BECAUSE I couldn't <BR>>help but notice their stuff all <BR>>over the place. Fat Joe <BR>>got notoriety putting his stickers up <BR>>all over the ghetto. BCC throws <BR>>a cookout for everybody in Albany <BR>>projects. The Roots are not <BR>>from NY so I wouldn't expect <BR>>them to be here and I <BR>>can't speak on their local activity <BR>>in Philly (I'm sure they do <BR>>what they can) but you get <BR>>my point. <P>I thought it was about reaching out to more people, now it's about being local heroes! Yeah, BCC threw a cookout but when have they gone platinum? when have they had shows at the Garden? yeah they miht play at the Oxford Tennis Club but that's the only bookings they can get. VERY FEW ACTS PUT ON THEIR OWN SHOWS! They have a very small (relatively) following too. <P>Stone Love and them flyer BK and Queens because they know that's where their audience is and they themselves are putting on the show! Why waste time and money posting in the Voice where your fan base is coming form a very deinfed area. <P>The Roots can get in the Voice becuase 1.) the PROMOTER PLACES ADS not the group and most promoters(like Live-N-Diect) are gonna try and touch as many heads as possible. tLive-N-Direct hey do the same thing whether its KRS, Gangstarr, Rakim, ODB, Jeru, lost Boyz, etc. All of these groups get their ads in the Voice and I doubt you would say that these groups have failed to capture black audiences. And they live in NY! <P>>I think the distinctions: real head, commercial <BR>>head, underground, etc. are destructive...if you <BR>>like hip hop you like hip <BR>>hop. <P>I disagree. if you like good hip-hop, you like good hip-hop. headz will always make a distinction for themselves! Some that distinction will be made by waht is being played all day, every day. Hopefuly it will mostly be made ny what you think is good.<P>Maybe the music scene has <BR>>grown to a point where hip <BR>>hop styles have to be divided <BR>>into categories but then we <BR>>should expect that joints that rock <BR>>the blockparties & clubs will always <BR>>have more appeal than those that <BR>>don't. Ha would have blew up <BR>>regardless of the emcee on the <BR>>track or what was being said. <BR>> Rhythm drives hip hop (imo)and <BR>>things go in cycles. <P><BR>>>The only way the Roots are gonna be able to completely control where they play is to become promoters and book their own tours. <P>>You would probably know better than me. <BR>>Question, where do rap artists make <BR>>the majority of their dough. I <BR>>know touring used to be what <BR>>paid but I'm sure that's changed <BR>>now. <P>The real money is made in writing songs and producing sonf=gs! yeah you make money on teh road doing shows. but a popular producer (like a Babyface) doesn't have leave his house again if he doesn't want to. <BR> <BR>I dont have any problems with Rap Acts blowin 'up. It's about damn time! But I think you underestimate the market forces and industry forces that can make or break a group.<P><P>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>"I'm passionate, not evil!" - Stress (aka Angieee)<P>To be young, gifted and black, Oh what a lovely precious dream<BR>To be young, gifted and black, Open your heart to what I mean<BR>In the whole world you know. There are billion boys and girls<BR>Who are young, gifted and black, And that's a fact! - N.Simone/W. Irvine <BR>

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

>You ignore the fact that Master P was almost a >completely regional (albeit sucessful) act UNTIL >he got on MTV (and BET) and blew up nationally >and internationally. That's when everyone and his >mom got a deal on his label and started blowing >up. More people in the NY area had his movie >than his album! Of course hip-hop is competitive >always was, always will be.<P>But No Limit's music DID travel, it got play in the South and various areas pre-mtv & Bet. NY traditionally has been a very difficult market for non-NY hip hop. But I didn't need Hot97 to find out about P - though I was late...I don't even have cable. My point is that P was successful and gaining popularity without normal tv & radio access. <P>>Well, I don't care about hip-hop "styles". <BR>>If it's good I buy it! <BR>>End of story! So it <BR>>could be Jigga, the Roots, Mobb <BR>>deep, or Outkast and I think <BR>>most headz on this board are <BR>>the same way. I will <BR>>admit that many so-called undeground cats <BR>>abandon some artists as soon as <BR>>they blow up, but most headz <BR>>support artisits putting out good creative <BR>>shit. <P>I'm new on this board so I can't speak for how the headz here are. I think "creative" and "artistic" are subjective concepts.<BR> <BR>>It doesn't follow that you have to <BR>>get a black audience FIRST!... <BR>Let's take Prince for example. Prince's music <BR>>when he first came out is and was more "BLACKER" than 99% of this so-called rap and Bullshit <BR>>we hear, but radio stations and black music listeners thought he was making music for white folks. but Black folk were not trying to hear him until he became commercial accepted with Purple Rain! In that case Black folks caught on late! Black folks still won't give Lenny Kravitz or Ben Harper or Alana Davis or Seal any love. But their music is more soulful and more rooted in the history and tradition of Rhytm and Blues then most of the stuff we are forced to listen to on the radio and TV. <BR>><P>Question: are you black? Let me say first, I'm black & have the expectation that black artists create primarily out of the black experience for black people. That's how I view it as an artist (not music) and some other types of artist disagree...classic debate. Imo there isn't a major black artist (particularly in terms of creativity, influence, and artistry) that didn't have a core black audience first...feel free to educate me if I'm wrong. <P>2nd, I think you are generalizing like crazy about the tastes of black people and I believe that you're drawing conclusions from you're own personal tastes & presenting them as facts. Using Prince as an example, I don't know where you were but I distinctly remember my cousins & fam loving Prince waaaayyyyy before Purple Rain. I remember Wordup & RightOn with articles about who's better Prince or Michael Jackson and this was also pre Purple Rain...why would he have been in those mags if young black people weren't feeling him? I distinctly recall I Want To Be Your Lover blasting out of windows all over Franklin ave off Pacific - you dont' get more "aroundtheway"...everybody used to say that Foster Silvers (flashback) looked like him?? Maybe Prince was unknown to some but he sure had plenty of black fans. <BR> <BR>Also, since when did black people control supposedly "black" radio? Anyway, a conversation on which artists are more soulful will always be up for debate.... I can show you where dru hill is singing traditional black gospel style riffs that Lenny Kravitz' soul couldn't dream of bringing forth. And I know mad black people (aroundtheway @ that) that like Seal, Kravitz, and Harper...amongst others though they definetly aren't as popular.<BR> <BR>I've heard both Goodie & Outkast on Hot97 but I agree with you on the regional bias in NY against non NY hip hop.<P>>I grew up in Newark and listened <BR>>to the same stations you did. <BR>> Let me refresh your memory. <BR>> Rap was never played during <BR>>the day (with a few exceptions) <BR>>on Kiss, WBLS, and WKTU! <BR>>only on the late night mix. <P>My point is that you didn't need radio alone to bring you hip hop. Do you remember how La Di Da Di got passed around on tape waaayyy before you caught it on the radio? Hip hop has spread & is big money so the radio stations (white owned) have acted accordingly by giving it more air time BUT there are more ways than 1 to skin a cat (as shown by P).<P>>What more do they have to do <BR>>to appeal to average black folks? <P>Good question. I have some suggestions but you'd probably get mad <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> <P>>Answer me this!!! How many "average" black folks >are pushing Mercedes Benzes and rocking Diamond >Rings and wearing custom made Diamond Links and >$1000 shoes from Donna Karan? How many "average" black folks are out there busting caps in niggas asses everyday? Not many, but I'll be damn if those aren't the songs they're listening to. Don't get me wrong I love Mob Deep, Wu, kool G rap, etc and know all the words by heart. But is this what you mean by talking to the average black? <P>Please don't put words in my mouth. 1) the average black person has material dreams no different than the average person...period. We live in a society dominated by consumerism - and its reflected all over not in some hip hop (in fact I would argue that current popular hip hop is a late reflection of an old trend). So lets not scapegoat black people as being the only ones caught up. 2) if PE could sell to average black teens then there's no excuse for why "conscious", nationalist, etc rap can't sell today - we're no more materialistic NOW than we were in 85 when we wore $2000 dapper dan suits & had 16 year olds drug dealers driving BMWs...and we sure weren't smarter then either. If the music is funky and it moves the ass, the mind will follow. <P>> Blackstar does speak to the <BR>>everyday man, but they don't seem <BR>>to be listening<P>apparently they aren't. once again, if PE could sell & Brand Nubians could sell then and more important, be popular then.......<P>If Rawkus doesn't arrange to have them sign albums <BR>at Virgin Megastore in Union Square or at HMV on 72nd it won't happen. <P>Question: how is Blackstarr going to be Black Nationalist group and then we (as black) sit around talking about what white record owners & media WON'T LET them do. maybe they need to link up with P <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><BR> <BR>>Obviously i'm not in the band <BR>>so they can answer that directly <BR>>if they want, but nothing I <BR>>ever heard or seen suggested that <BR>>the Roots had contempt for their <BR>>audience or made it seem that <BR>>they thought they were better than <BR>>their audience. <P>I never said they felt that way, I'm made a general statement. I think you have to give people something to come TO not constantly talk about what they shouldn't be doing. The Roots w/Busta on Saturday nite live probably expanded their audience as did the collab with Erykah. Its funny how the same person will Total, Eryka, Mary J, and TLC on their shelf, we obviously can handle diversity & variety IF its good and we're exposed to it. <P>>SORRY, black folks NEVER really supported <BR>>traditonal jazz. But pick up any jazz history book or (auto)biography and the evidence is on <BR>>every page. In fact blacks gave jazz so little love that many of the jazz greats tstayed in Europe for exteneded times just to make a living. And jazz's biggest benefactors then and now were <BR>Jews! <P>Not true...I will follow up with proof. Question, who's writing the books you're reading. There are many black artists who couldn't make a living (jazz and otherwise) that doesn't translate into not having black support. Also jews being the biggest benefactors of jazz doesn't mean they had more appreciation for the art than black people...does that theory apply to the NAACP too?<P>>I thought it was about reaching out to more people, now it's about being local heroes! Yeah, BCC threw a cookout but when have they gone platinum? <P>I thought hip hop was grassroots black music...if you're not local heroes then who cares? And I thought the goal was to make good music and play for your people NOT go platinum. <P> VERY FEW ACTS PUT ON THEIR OWN SHOWS! They have a very small (relatively) following too. Stone Love and them flyer BK and Queens because they know that's where their audience is and they themselves are putting on the show! <P>That's the whole point....if an artist is not advertising aroundtheway then I'm assuming they 1) don't have a fan base there and 2) don't want to develop one. Also, what's the point of having conscious black music (this isn't necessarily in reference to the Roots) and no control of yourself or your product? Maybe its time we (meaning blacks) start thinking about what's truly progressive and where our agenda is as a community. <P>>>>The only way the Roots are gonna be able to completely control where they play is to become promoters and book their own tours. <P>Sounds like a plan....though I don't know how feasible that is, I am not a rap artist.<P>>But I think <BR>>you underestimate the market forces and <BR>>industry forces that can make or <BR>>break a group. <P>No, Im just tired of people complaining about a market that we never controlled. There are lessons to be learned from P and Puff on the business end about working around the "industry" and working industry forces to your advantage. <BR>><P><BR>Peace

Love the points you are bringing up in the post, but I think you are giving P and Puff waaay to much credit. They still are puppets of the game.<P>Yeah, PE and Brand Nubian sold back in the day with consciousness, but that was when consciousness was "in." If we were no less materialistic then, I guess we were also no more conscious then than now, and it was somewhat of a fad. Sad to see it that way.<P><P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

cosign

I really like this discussion and unfortunately i'm about to go on vacationa dn won't be able to respond much for a cople of weeks. And I hate sounding like some Roots defender or some so-called "real hip-hop" defender. BUT......<P>There's one thing overall I don't understand about your point. I completely understand that whites, have and will, control thge music business and radio stations. <P>> But I didn't need Hot97 <BR>>to find out about P - <BR>>though I was late...I don't even <BR>>have cable. My point is <BR>>that P was successful and gaining <BR>>popularity without normal tv & radio <BR>>access. <P>True to some degree but mTV put him into the stratosphere and realisttically how many Master ps will there ever be at one time. The market will not allow many.<P>>I'm new on this board so I can't speak for how the headz here are. <P>Reda the posts!<P>>I think "creative" and "artistic" are subjective concepts.<P>All opinons on music, art, etc. are subjective.<P> <P><BR>>Question: are you black? <P>I'm very black and lived in Irvington/newark, NJ my entire life excpet for college. <P>>Let me <BR>>say first, I'm black & have <BR>>the expectation that black artists create <BR>>primarily out of the black experience <BR>>for black people. <P>There is no one black experience!!! I often generalize about the black experience too and that's dangerous. Prince grew up in Minneapolis and the balck experience there is much different from NY. He drew on that. The twin citiesis known for having a large number of interracial couples for example. that'spart of the black experience out there. Atlanta's black experience is very different from NY. There are definitely unifying threads, but there isn't one claim on what the bal experience is!<P><BR>>2nd, I think you are generalizing like <BR>>crazy about the tastes of black <BR>>people and I believe that you're <BR>>drawing conclusions from you're own personal <BR>>tastes & presenting them as facts. <BR>>Using Prince as an example, I <BR>>don't know where you were but <BR>>I distinctly remember my cousins & <BR>>fam loving Prince waaaayyyyy before Purple <BR>>Rain.<P>Sorry! WRONG!! Your fam was dope like mine! But maybe the two extra years I have on ya and the fact that my brother in law and sister and their friends are approaching 40 helps me here. They went to Prince shows back then and the ratio was always at least 80% white. Go and find ANY footage of Prince performing back in the day and you'll see that black folks were sparse (those shows make Roots shows look like they took place in the middle of Africa). And yes. Who didn't jam to I wanna be Yourlover, but black folks en masse were not buying Prince until Purple Rain and when Hot Tracks started playing Little red Corvette and 1999. Here's a quick test. How many people around your way knew that Prince was the first one to record I Feel for You when Chaka re did it? I would guess not many<P><P> I remember Wordup & <BR>>RightOn with articles about who's better <BR>>Prince or Michael Jackson and this <BR>>was also pre Purple Rain...why would <BR>>he have been in those mags <BR>>if young black people weren't feeling <BR>>him? <P>I guess we have to go to the archives. Because all the Michael vs. prince talk was going on when Thriller, Purple Rain and Lionel Richie's first album were on the top of the charts. I rememebr that distinctly (7th and 8th grades).<P><BR>I distinctly recall I <BR>>Want To Be Your Lover blasting <BR>>out of windows all over Franklin <BR>>ave off Pacific - you dont' <BR>>get more "aroundtheway"...everybody used to say <BR>>that Foster Silvers (flashback) looked like <BR>>him?? <P>Again my mom is Haitian and she loved I Wanna Be Your Lover, everyone did, but black folks were not copping that album and they were not going to Prince shows at all. WBLS, KISS, WKTU, WNJR (AM) they all ran that song! <P><BR>>Maybe Prince was unknown to some but he sure had <BR>>plenty of black fans. <P>Sounds like the Roots to me!<P>> Also, since when did <BR>>black people control supposedly "black" radio? <P>Please show me when i even suggested or hinted at such a thing!<P>> Anyway, a conversation on which <BR>>artists are more soulful will always <BR>>be up for debate.... <P>TRUE!<P>I can <BR>>show you where dru hill is <BR>>singing traditional black gospel style riffs <BR>>that Lenny Kravitz' soul couldn't dream <BR>>of bringing forth.<P>I'd disagree strongly. I like Dru Hill and they're cool and all as far as Jodeci impersonators go. But there is the "black" tradition of grassroots and blues and soul and gospel and rock that the Lenny kravitzes of the world touch and express that today 's standard of R&B refuses to embrace, simply ignores, or doesn't know about.<P>> And I <BR>>know mad black people (aroundtheway @ <BR>>that) that like Seal, Kravitz, and <BR>>Harper...amongst others though they definetly aren't <BR>>as popular. <P>I think this summarizes my whole point (I wish we could've arrived here sooner). There are pople "roundtheway" that dig The roots, Lenny Kravitz, Dave Matthews, et. but they're not in the majority and I doubt these folks view Lenny adn Seal, etc. as white music. The majority of the headz are lsitening to what's spoon fed to them on certain outlets. Those outlets only choose to play certain types of artists (and those tastes change with the wind and are mostly based on $ and record sales). The whole cycle works together. can the Roots get in that circle? who knows? Would they have to change the music that they make which is based on their Black experience? Not necessarily, but probably? maybe these outlets will pen up more!<P>>>I grew up in Newark and listened <BR>>>to the same stations you did. <BR>>> Let me refresh your memory. <BR>>> Rap was never played during <BR>>>the day (with a few exceptions) <BR>>>on Kiss, WBLS, and WKTU! <BR>>>only on the late night mix. <P>>My point is that you didn't need <BR>>radio alone to bring you hip <BR>>hop. Do you remember how La <BR>>Di Da Di got passed around <BR>>on tape waaayyy before you caught <BR>>it on the radio? Hip <BR>>hop has spread & is big <BR>>money so the radio stations (white <BR>>owned) have acted accordingly by giving <BR>>it more air time BUT there <BR>>are more ways than 1 to <BR>>skin a cat (as shown by <BR>>P). <P>Again how often will the P strategy work and in order for the Roots to blow up, do they have to go build a mini-drug empire to finance them as they buck the system, like P did. That's how Wu got back in the game too by selling and then pressing "Potect Ya neck" and selling it themselves and then the labels came after thema dn now they are vey much a aprt of the system. But is that the way it has to be done? Hell, we had an original pressing of Potect before they got signed. <P>>>What more do they have to do <BR>>>to appeal to average black folks? <P>>Good question. I have some suggestions <BR>>but you'd probably get mad <P>I don't get mad this is healthy dialogue. Put it down!<P><BR>>Please don't put words in my mouth. <BR>> 1) the average black person <BR>>has material dreams no different than <BR>>the average person...period. We live in <BR>>a society dominated by consumerism - <BR>>and its reflected all over not <BR>>in some hip hop (in fact <BR>>I would argue that current popular <BR>>hip hop is a late reflection <BR>>of an old trend). So lets <BR>>not scapegoat black people as being <BR>>the only ones caught up. <P>I never said any of the things you suggest. But you sttaed that BlackStar needs to speak to the every day man. I wanted to know how could there words not be considered every day man speech but all this American fascination with mostly unattainable material goods is? How can BlackStar,The Coup, Common, The Roots talk about the simple things in life and in the evryday struggle that people ACTUALLY experience, yet they are somehow talking down to people. How come the groups I mention just be kicking dope rhymes and beats a lot of the time with no overt message yet they're not talking too the every day man? That's what I didn't understand.<P>>2) if PE could sell to <BR>>average black teens then there's no <BR>>excuse for why "conscious", nationalist, etc <BR>>rap can't sell today - we're <BR>>no more materialistic NOW than we <BR>>were in 85 when we wore <BR>>$2000 dapper dan suits & had <BR>>16 year olds drug dealers driving <BR>>BMWs...and we sure weren't smarter then <BR>>either>> Blackstar does speak to the <BR>>>everyday man, but they don't seem <BR>>>to be listening<P>SORRY AGAIN!!!! White folks sent PE (I'm a PE fiend by the way) platinum over and over again. Rolling Srone, TIME and SPIN couldn't do enough articles on PE. They were always on MYV news forsometing or another and Yo! There's no doubt that brothas were feeling PE but again they were not exclusively supporting them by any means. Additionally, thebacknationalist thing lasted for only a little while (Have you sen X-Clan or The Poor Rightous Teachers lately, KRS toned down his teaching stance real quick) And another secret that people don't like to tell NWA and ICE CUBE's first album went Platinum because of white boys as well. When I went to college mad white kidz were playing Amerikkka's Most. <P><BR>>If the music <BR>>is funky and it moves the <BR>>ass, the mind will follow. <P>BlackStar is all of that and the some!! So why won't the roundtheway and everyday man listen?<P>>, if PE >could sell & Brand Nubians could <BR>>sell then and more important, be <BR>>popular then....... <P>Yo! One for All never even went Gold! Don't overestimate what New Yorkers were feeling. One for All is a classic, but they didn't make any loot off that album for sure!<P>>Question: how is Blackstarr going to be Black Nationalist group and then we (as black) sit around talking about what white record owners & media WON'T LET them do. maybe they need to link up with P <P>The industry works in certain ways. You don';t run up in anybody's Virgin Meagastore and do your own thing. you don't go to anybody's record stationa and tell 'em play this (unless you're Suge Knight or smoethin') I'm not sure that Black Star is a Black nationalist Group (I just never read that, your probably right. but rest assured, P follows the same ruiles as everyone else now that he's big time. He has his own label and yes he has a lot more control than most but he plays by the rules. The distributors still run the whole business. <BR>> <BR>>I never said they felt that way, <BR>>I'm made a general statement. <BR>>I think you have to give <BR>>people something to come TO not <BR>>constantly talk about what they shouldn't <BR>>be doing. <P>Where do the Roots do this? Most of there songs, Black Thought, Malik and Dice are just kickin ill rhymes. Hell Dice swears he's a pimp and BT just be gettin ill. Listen to that jawn on the Wood soundtrack. Black Thought is just getting ill. Public Enemy told folks what hey shouldn' t be doing, KRS did that (You must learn). The Roots with a couple of exceptions like "What They Do" for instance, don't preach to folks. <P>The Roots w/Busta on <BR>>Saturday nite live probably expanded their <BR>Now do you think the Roots had cotrol over getting themselves on Saturday Night Live? Someone had to suggest it and express an interest. From waht I've seen the Roots will play anywhere if you're willing to pay them. They would perform in Brooklyn, Queens, anywhere, but someone has to bring them there!>audience <P>as did the collab with <BR>>Erykah. Its funny how the <BR>>same person will Total, Eryka, Mary <BR>>J, and TLC on their shelf, <BR>>we obviously can handle diversity & <BR>>variety IF its good and we're <BR>>exposed to it. <P>Again you're making my point!! EXPOSURE!!!!!! is critical.<P>>>SORRY, black folks NEVER really supported <BR>>>traditonal jazz. But pick up any jazz history book or (auto)biography and the evidence is on <BR>>>every page. In fact blacks gave jazz so little love that many of the jazz greats tstayed in Europe for exteneded times just to make a living. And jazz's biggest benefactors then and now were <BR>>Jews! <P>>Not true...I will follow up with proof. <BR>>Question, who's writing the books you're <BR>>reading. There are many black artists <BR>>who couldn't make a living (jazz <BR>>and otherwise) that doesn't translate into <BR>>not having black support.<P>Pick up Miles Davis' autobiography , read "Blues People" by LeRoi Joes (aka Amiri Baraka), Read the "Death of Rhythm and Blues" (Nelson George) just to name a few. (They are all black by the way). That is an undeniable fact. Black folks liked jazz back then but we were not the ones in the clubs financially suporting the artisits for many reasosn. I'll list two. (1.) segregation in some clubs - so folks had to wait till three in the Morning for the jam sessions at places like Minton's Playhouse, etc. but the segregation inthe clubs ended a lot sooner than in did society (2.) Bebop and the like were very much treated like rap in some regards when it first came out. Some Black folk often referred to it as the Devil's Music. Louis Armstrong constantly dissed Diz and Bird in print and in song! Bop was supported by the Beatnik crowd mainly in those days. Big Band Jazz was financially supported by whites s well even though blacks were into it as well. Read the books on jazz (black or white author) it doesn't matter the overall landscape is described the same way.<BR> Also <BR>>jews being the biggest benefactors of <BR>>jazz doesn't mean they had more <BR>>appreciation for the art than black <BR>>people...does that theory apply to the <BR>>NAACP too? <P><BR>Who even suggested sucha thing?????? In fact I hate when jews imply taht they are the only reson jazz still exists. Teh love of tha beautiful art form is why it still exisist. But it is undeniable that Jews kept Jazz going financially froall the jazz clubs theu opend to their presence in the beatnik community and in the clubs. Jazz is a Black Music. I've had that argument withmany folks. But we were not the ones that supported it during those rough years financially.<P><BR>>I thought hip hop was grassroots black <BR>>music...if you're not local heroes then <BR>>who cares? And I thought <BR>>the goal was to make good <BR>>music and play for your people <BR>>NOT go platinum. <P>Is Puffy grassroots, Jay-Z, Jermaine Dupri? Folks start off grassroots when the other avenues are not avaialbale. Hip-Hop has a lot of avenues open now, but only some are allowed to drive down. And platinum status means nothing arrtxtically, I never meant that. I was just responding to how I thought you were gauging success and reaching people. But platinum status means everything to MTV and HOT97. And i thought you were suggesting that teh Roots could do more to get themselves onthose outlets. <P>> VERY FEW ACTS PUT ON THEIR <BR>>OWN SHOWS! They have a <BR>>very small (relatively) following too. Stone <BR>>Love and them flyer BK and <BR>>Queens because they know that's where <BR>>their audience is and they themselves <BR>>are putting on the show! <P>>That's the whole point....if an artist is <BR>>not advertising aroundtheway then I'm assuming <BR>>they 1) don't have a fan <BR>>base there and 2) don't want <BR>>to develop one. <P>That's nonsense! When Outkst peroforms in ATL u think they go into every projects and post signs. Hell naw. Headz that want to see them find out and they go to the show! AND AGAIN THE PROMOTERS PLACE ADS AND PROMOTE SHOWS!!!! NOT THE ARTISTS!!! UNLESS THEY ARE THE PROMOTERS AS WELL! <P>>Also, what's <BR>>the point of having conscious black <BR>>music (this isn't necessarily in reference <BR>>to the Roots) and no control <BR>>of yourself or your product? <P>That's unfortunate isn't it but that's why it's caled te bizbess. Some artists have more control than others, but teh labels run this!<P>>>you underestimate the market forces and <BR>>>industry forces that can make or <BR>>>break a group. <P>>No, Im just tired of people complaining about a market that we never controlled. There are lessons to be learned from P and Puff on the business end about working around the "industry" and working industry forces to your advantage. <P><BR>There are some lessons, but Puff and P are very much a part of the industry. Puff is an embodiment of the industry now. they're not taking chances. they have a little formula and they stick to it. like every one else in the industry<P>Damn, I need a vacation1<P><BR>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>"I'm passionate, not evil!" - Stress (aka Angieee)<P>To be young, gifted and black, Oh what a lovely precious dream<BR>To be young, gifted and black, Open your heart to what I mean<BR>In the whole world you know. There are billion boys and girls<BR>Who are young, gifted and black, And that's a fact! - N.Simone/W. Irvine

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

1) Lets not confuse records sales with who likes the music. For years I never bought a hip hop album but could quote verses line for line, why? I couldn't afford to buy records and I also couldn't afford to buy shows. When it comes to disposable income many black people (though we waste alot) don't spend on buying everybody's album or cd. Why do you think bootleg is so hot? So a lack of black sales or blacks @ shows is not simply because we aren't listening. <BR> <BR>>How many Master P will there ever be at one time.<P>As many as black folk push themselves to make. We have a history of circumventing the game when it won't let us do our thing. <P>>There is no one black experience!!! I <BR>>often generalize about the black experience <BR>>too and that's dangerous. <P>Here we disagree, I think there are common practices and experience that bonds black people all over the diaspora. Its the reason why I can go to Senegal, Antigua, and DR and fit in (even being an outsider). personally, I think we need to focus on what binds us rather than what doesn't - we're the only people that don't. <BR>>><BR>>Sorry! WRONG!! Your fam was dope <BR>>like mine! But maybe the two <BR>>extra years I have on ya <BR>>and the fact that my brother <BR>>in law and sister and their <BR>>friends are approaching 40 helps me <BR>>here. <P>You're actually not older than me, I said I was over 25 <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">. <P>Prince shows back then and the ratio <BR>>was always at least 80% white. Go and find ANY footage of Prince performing back in the day and you'll see that black folks were sparse (those shows make Roots shows look like they took <BR>>place in the middle of Africa). <P>Ummm..go to the Lauren Hill concert and it was largely white - is that an indication that blacks aren't feeling Lauren or that we couldn't go to the show?<P>but black folks en masse were not buying <BR>>Prince until Purple Rain and when Hot Tracks started playing Little red Corvette and 1999. <P>White people in masse weren't buying Prince either until Purple Rain, so what are you saying? Speaking proportionately, early Prince had a large black audience relative to his general popularity @ the time. <P> How many people around your way knew that Prince <BR>>was the first one to record I Feel for You when Chaka >re did it? <P>I would guess that not many post Purple rain fans (white or black) would've known the answer to that question.<P>>I guess we have to go to <BR>>the archives (re: wordup)<P>Yeah, we do. Michael Jackson & Prince were famous before Thriller & Purple Rain. Did you forget Off the Wall? <P>We'll save the Lenny Kravitz convo for another time. <P>>Again how often will the P strategy <BR>>work and in order for the Roots to blow up, do they have to go build a mini-drug empire to finance them as they buck the system, like P did.<P>Would you agree that there is mad illegal business (including mob ties) in the music industry? Doing business with major white corporations is no better than working with a drug dealer. Lets get real...there are many who think their hands are clean because they don't see the dirt (no disrespect to the Roots). Do you really believe that Time Warner or Seagrams are less foul than some brother hustling on the corner - in the end a signed emcee & the drug dealer are probably working for the same people. Which is not to sanction drug selling but its not all black & white. <P>I believe artists have to weigh their creativity & individuality with entertaining an audience. That's part of the how it works and sometimes it requires compromises. Why compromise in one area (to appease your label) but not in another to reach your people? I think you can make creative & enlightening music...its been done before, humans haven'tchanged that much. <BR> <BR>>SORRY AGAIN!!!! White folks sent PE <BR>>(I'm a PE fiend by the <BR>>way) platinum over and over again. <P>White people are about 60 - 70% of the population in the US, if they buy enmasse of course it will go platinum. Black people are 12% - pushing 20% if you listen to Farrakan <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> A black act can be enormously popular in the black community & not reach the white audience (Keith Sweat, Gerald Levert, Jodeci, tons of rap acts). I'm not talking about what's going on in the white community, I'm talking aboutthe black one. Badboy has mad white support, that doesn't mean it doesn't have trememdous black support too. JayZ & Lauren Hill are loved by (i'd guess) 80% of the teen/young adult black market - but that 80% is not what took him to #1 on the pop charts. Our numbers won't let us do that, but it doesn't mean an artist doesn't have strong black support. <BR> <BR>>BlackStar is all of that and the <BR>>some!! So why won't the roundtheway <BR>>and everyday man listen? <P>I bought the album & like it but its not moving my feet or my ass, with the exception of (re)definition which was crazy bitten (you old school & you know it).<P>>Yo! One for All never even went <BR>>Gold! <P>And....??? Think relatively.<BR> <BR>>>Question: how is Blackstarr going to be Black Nationalist group and then we (as black) sit around talking about what white record owners & media WON'T LET them do. maybe they need to link up with P <P>>The industry works in certain ways. You don';t run up in anybody's Virgin Meagastore and do your own thing. you don't go to anybody's record stationa and tell 'em play this (unless you're Suge Knight or smoethin') I'm not sure that Black Star is a Black nationalist Group (I just never read that, your probably right. but rest assured, P follows the same ruiles as everyone else now that he's big time. He has his own label and yes he has a lot more control than most but he plays by the rules. The distributors still run the whole business. <P>____________________________<P>From what I understand P is making moves to do distributing, and his investment in MP3 is also a move to be there when the will be forced to change the way it works...and IT WILL. I currently work for a web development firm that does streaming. For more info read last month's Wired on MP3 and how the technology will alter the whole way the industry does business. <P>>Pick up Miles Davis' autobiography , read "Blues People" by LeRoi Joes (aka Amiri Baraka), Read the "Death of Rhythm and Blues" (Nelson George) just to name a few. <P>Ummmm....I read those books & you've made my point. There is a difference btwn having black support & having financial black support. Hip hop, like jazz did not have the support of older blacks but then why would you expect it too. That's like thinking white who grew up on Pat Boone would support their kids punk rock. <BR>><BR>>Is Puffy grassroots, Jay-Z, Jermaine Dupri? <P>Hell yeah...you better believe they had support. The sell in damn near every black home. <P>f<BR>>Folks start off grassroots when the <BR>>other avenues are not avaialbale. <P>>That's nonsense! When Outkst peroforms in <BR>>ATL u think they go into <BR>>every projects and post signs. <BR>>Hell naw. <P>They should!! I mean why not? And if they aren't being promoted to aroundtheway black folk (which is most of us) then shouldn't they be upset about that? <P>>>P & Puff are an embodiment of the industry <P>The industry has no choice but to deal with P. He made them make a place for him and I can respect that. <P>Enjoy your vacation <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">

Or is he just one of the smartest players? He's still entangled in the Big Five distribution oligopoly. I'll wait and see if he does an Artist move and really severs ties from EMI down the road. <P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion">http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion<;/a>

Unless the industry finds a way to work the technology to its advantage, MP3s are in direct competition with the current way the music industry does business. <P>I really can't wait to see what happens either.

Isn't the blackstarr name itself a direct reference to the Blackstar line started by Marcus Garvey, a black nationalist?<P>As far as they are concerned, I like Talib better than Mos Def <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">and I really do see a potential problem with & futility in "black nationalist" reppin' artists performing (in my experience which is admittedly limited..I haven't seen them in cities across the US) for predominantly white audiences.

>True to some degree but mTV put <BR>>him into the stratosphere and realisttically <BR>>how many Master ps will there <BR>>ever be at one time.<P>It is not necessary to sell 5 million records like Master P. It is necesary to attempt to gain as much autonomy as P has (although he was pressured to change his album title from "Ghetto Dope" to Ghetto D, in the end, I'm sure he could have put it out with the title he wanted and just missed out on being stocked in K-Mart or whatever).<P>>There is no one black experience!!! I <BR>>often generalize about the black experience <BR>>too and that's dangerous.<P>The fact that a gorp of people decide to call themselves "black" would tend to lead me to believe that they have some commonalities in their experience. If nothing else, we all share the common expereince of being called black. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif"><P><BR>>TRUE! <BR>>I can <BR>>>show you where dru hill is <BR>>>singing traditional black gospel style riffs <BR>>>that Lenny Kravitz' soul couldn't dream <BR>>>of bringing forth.<P>>I'd disagree strongly. I like Dru <BR>> Hill and they're cool and <BR>>all as far as Jodeci impersonators <BR>>go. But there is the <BR>>"black" tradition of grassroots and blues <BR>>and soul and gospel and rock <BR>>that the Lenny kravitzes of the <BR>>world touch and express<P>You can't possibly mean that you think Lenny has the vocal range of Cisqo of Dru Hill. Stop playing...that's all the sista was referring to. point blank, if you want to break it down, my man Cisqo is a better singer than 90% of the "alternative" singers you care to name. He has the voice, he lacks the creativity.<P><BR>>Again how often will the P strategy <BR>>work and in order for the <BR>>Roots to blow up, do they <BR>>have to go build a mini-drug <BR>>empire to finance them as they <BR>>buck the system, like P did. <P>P never had a "mini drug empire". From all the reports I hear (as a former New Orleans resident) P was never that large. He just saved his money and parlayed it. He was also allegedly the beneficiary of some insurance money. He flipped all that cash into opening a small recordstore and went up from there. If it was as easy as just being a drug dealer, there would be a lot more Master P's out there. takes a little more smarts than that.<P>Also, the Master P startegy is the same as the NWA strategy or the Def Jam strategy. Indie labels are the heart of hip-hop. YES, WE MUST ALWAYS RETURN TO THAT STRATEGY. There is no option. As long as the record business remains a business, your ability to control how your product is marketed will always be best served when you market it YOURSELF.<P>> That's how Wu got back <BR>>in the game too by selling <BR>>and then pressing "Potect Ya neck" <BR>>and selling it themselves and then <BR>>the labels came after thema dn <BR>>now they are vey much a <BR>>aprt of the system. But is <BR>>that the way it has to <BR>>be done? <P>Yes. What alternative do you suggest? keep playing and hope the people come? That hasn't ever worked. To reach a mainstream level, music must be marketed. Spontaneous success in the music business is almost entirely unheard of (that means, an obscure record comes out, with little promotion, and sells 5 million copies).<P>>SORRY AGAIN!!!! White folks sent PE <BR>>(I'm a PE fiend by the <BR>>way) platinum over and over again. <BR>> Rolling Srone, TIME and SPIN <BR>>couldn't do enough articles on PE. <BR>> They were always on MYV <BR>>news forsometing or another and Yo! <BR>> There's no doubt that brothas <BR>>were feeling PE but again they <BR>>were not exclusively supporting them by <BR>>any means.<P>Stop playing. "Exclusive support" isn't the issue. The issue is, getting black people to support en masse. PE had it. I remember brothers coast to coast rocking the African medallions, blasting PE out their cars. The question is, why can't today's poltical rapper get that same support from the folks? Well, for one, PE had the Def Jam machine behind them. It is our responsibility as conscious folks to start organizing foundations upon which conscious art can be created and disseminated. Imagine if some entrepreneur was able to create Native tongues Records and we got a native tongues record every two weeks like the No Limit fans get a P-related record every two weeks. No one has done it yet, but it's happening slowly, as more cats start to go indie.<P>I'm interested in seeing what De La will do when they go indie (after their contract expires). Native tongue Records! With African medallions that say "Native Tongue" on them, that they hold up to the camera at every opportunity!<P> Additionally, thebacknationalist thing <BR>>lasted for only a little while <BR>>(Have you sen X-Clan or The <BR>>Poor Rightous Teachers lately, KRS toned <BR>>down his teaching stance real quick) <P>88-91 (I have heard the argument that "apocalpse 91 marked the ending, we can debate that, I suppose), which is a nice sized period for any hip-hop era. Is four years a little while? There are still conscious rappers around. Think of the G-funk craze. Despite selling millions of records, it really only lasted from 92-96....you don't hear high pitched synhesizers in records anymore, do you? Once Pac died, the West Coast gangsta rap explosion vanished.<P>>And another secret that people don't <BR>>like to tell NWA and ICE <BR>>CUBE's first album went Platinum because <BR>>of white boys as well. <P>So fucking what. This country is 75% white. There are no hip-hop records OR ANY RECORDS which go platinum without a sizable white purchasing populace. You can't tell me that NWA didn't rule the streets from 88-92 though.<P>>Yo! One for All never even went <BR>>Gold! Don't overestimate what New <BR>>Yorkers were feeling. <P>There was a big scandal about that. That was the result of massive bootlegging. Trust me, a LOT of people in the South and West had BN's album. However, their sales in the tri-State were cut pretty badly by bootleggers.<P>>P follows the same ruiles as everyone else now >that he's big time.<P>P followed the same rules when he was small time. You could never mistake P for Suge Knight, ever.<P><P>>>Not true...I will follow up with proof. <BR>>>Question, who's writing the books you're <BR>>>reading. There are many black artists <BR>>>who couldn't make a living (jazz <BR>>>and otherwise) that doesn't translate into <BR>>>not having black support.<P>>Pick up Miles Davis' autobiography ,<P>Miles never said that "black people never supported jazz" as you posit. Did we read different autobiographies? What page did Miles say that on?<P> read "Blues People" by LeRoi Joes (aka Amiri Baraka), Read the "Death of Rhythm and Blues" (Nelson George) just to name a few. (They are all black by the way). That is an undeniable fact. Black folks liked jazz back then but we were not the ones in the clubs financially suporting the artisits for many reasosn.<P>Again, you are equating financial support with support, which is illogical to me. You said "black folks never supported traditional jazz" as if black people were like "That jazz shit is wack". There are many ways to support beyond buying a concert ticket.<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

I know its fairly old but that whole thing about hip-hop bein grassroots black music....Maybe thats what it was and maybe in some ways it is, but it seems you are excluding its growth..hip-hop is a soulful "grassrooot" artform. We all know about the Asians involvement with the genre, as well as some of our B-Boy forefathers who were of Latino decent..and don't look now, its mad cats comin out of South America(I got hold of a Mexican/Cuban mixtape, mad political). I think that is the elegance of our culture we call hip hop...it has no boundaries..unless YOU care to build them. <P>Reading through this old stuff I've come to notice that although you do drop some jewels, you often fail to miss the point(s)...Oh yeah another thing: Anyone could(and maybe should) take note of the businessman savvy and expertise displayed by P and Puff, but inform me of a cat that is on top of shit like those bruthas are, but who still maintains their musical credibility(P and Puff are great CEO's but many jump at the chance to expose their musical weaknesses). <P>Oh yeah one more thing...Welcome to the site!<P>"Pressure breaks pipes time to apply it now"<BR> the Mac<BR>

1) Hip hop can't grow beyond what it is, what is @ its heart which is black creativity & black cultural expression. That is not an insult to any other group (and many latinos are simply black people who speak spanish anyway, had they been dropped off in jamaica - no one would feel the need to differentiate - but that's another topic).<P>2) Music has no boundaries but culture & experience shapes music and black culture is the foundation of hip hop - when you (speaking generally) seek to take away or belittle that truth, you take away from the essence. My grandmother was hip hop when she beat my ass & broke on me like it was a song, every lick on time, every line on beat. My church was hip hop, when the preacher called for an amen, the congregation responded. Hip hop is just another way for us to do what we've always done since day one. <P>3) I respect talent, and Puff & P have a talent for marketing & promotion. In P's case this has afforded him a level of independence & wealth that is rare for rappers. I read an interview where he say he gives 60% of his money back to his bus, 20% to the community, and 20% for himself & fam. He's hiring primarily black people, and in the end I feel his good more than outweighs the bad (you may have a different opinion).

Alright, I couldn't help but be intereted.<P>I am an 18 year old male from Toronto, and in ways of hip hop shows, I have seen few. Sub-15 for that matter probably.<P>But I must address the point you have brought up.<BR>I am wondering, is it possible you actually have a problem with caucasian connotations ensembles like the Roots or Black Star have? Why? If that is the reason.<P>You noted that you saw PE, Geto Boys, LL, and Naughty By Nature once. All of those bands, catered to a white platter just as much as the Roots do in ways that may be a little less obvious, but just as pertinent all the less. <P>Could u possibly fault PE for their collaborations with Anthrax or the brilliant Chuck D cameo on Sonic Youth's Kool Thang? <P>The majority of Geto Boys albums were produced by Carl Stephenson of Forest For The Trees, a white bluegrass fiddler and mandolin player from the Ozarks-cum-California. He also produced that famed WHITEY anthem Loser by Beck. <P>LL, well let's just consider him white then, In the House?, Halloween?, Deep Blue Sea? Need I say more?<P>And Naughty By Nature, for god's sakes, I remember they did a split 7-inch single with Married With Children's David Faustino a la Grandmaster B (as in Bud) - the perfect example of middle class suburban white kid. <P>So how then do you listing this showing as a reference point of how they attract black youth, deter the white cake layer implanted beneath their so-called 'black attraction'?<P>Just because a band draws a black crowd doesn't mean they care. I'm sure Jay-Z doesn't look out into the crowd and say 'I'm so glad my people are actually coming out to reclaim what they created!'. No. He's looking out and saying 'Fuck! look how much money we gon make tonight!!!!"<P>Don't you think its a little stodgy of you to think that music, hence culture, will at not one point or another become more amalgamated and blenderized? What's wrong with a white audience?<P>If the bands that you listed were truly sincere about their black fanbase, they would take the money they make from the whites, and regenerate it back into a community project of some sort.<P>Do you see basketball on the same level too?<P>And for you to say at the heart of hip is black creativity and expression is pretty loaded. Not that I am a huge fan of the name-dropping king Bob Dylan, but he developed a form of rapping way back in the 60's. Maybe curly haired Jewish kids should reclaim their rights too! <P>Allen Ginsberg, the beat poet was also along with Woody Guthre, one of the first major figures ever to speak in tones echoing what would become rap.<P>Plus, running my own magazine, I have met many of Toronto's and New York's and Montreal's concert promoters, and much to your dismay, they are generally black and/or asian. Not white.<P>In regards to the Wesley Snipes rebuttal, I laugh at how absurd his argument is. If the Roots are just going to start singing about guns, hoes, and cristal, in order to gain a more widespread black audience, then that is hollow, self-fostering, flacid bullshit. It would be just the same as a girl sucking a guy's cock in a relationship 24/7 rather than having a well-rounded multi-faceted relationship.<P>I'm glad you brought this arguement up, and I appreciate your intellect, but I just don't agree. But isn't that the great thing about this site?<P>Please reply.<P>peace.<BR>Yoga

Just to be clear, I don't care what white fans like - that's their business. If it happens to be what I like, cool...shows they have taste <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">. My question to the Roots was about touring with a white act that has no appeal with the majority of black folk (other white acts do & did appeal to black folk and may be more appropriate - ie 3rd Bass backintheday which Everlast was in or Lisa Stansfield backintheday....frankly, I can't think of a current white act that has a solid black fan right now).<P>>All of those bands catered to a white platter >just as much as the Roots do in ways that may be a little less obvious, but just as pertinent all the less. <P>I repeat, its okay to appeal to different audiences, but when PE toured with Anthrax black folks knew that show wasn't for them. WE went to the NBN/Geto Boys/LL/PE concert INSTEAD...that show was for US. <P>>The majority of Geto Boys albums were produced by >Carl Stephenson of Forest For The Trees, a white >bluegrass fiddler and mandolin player from the >Ozarks-cum-California. He also produced that famed >WHITEY anthem Loser by Beck. <P>So...how is that relevant to a conversation of who the Roots tour with? An alien from Mars could've produced the Geto Boys..I could care less.<P>>LL, well let's just consider him white then, In the House?, Halloween?, Deep Blue Sea? Need I say <BR>>more? <P>Every black person I know has seen LL in every movie & tv show he's been in (though we didn't enjoy them all). Maybe LL was cast in those movies in a deliberate attempt to DRAW black audiences who are massive consumers. LL is popular with black women and a major black star. Despite all of his outside endeavors there's not a black soul that I know who considers LL white or trying to appeal to white folk (a wack emcee now, maybe, but not a white man...come on!)<P>>Naughty By Nature,.... they did a split 7-inch single with Married With Children's David Faustino a la Grandmaster B (as in Bud) - the perfect example of middle class suburban white kid. <P>Again, so what? How is that relevant.<P>>So how then do you listing this showing as a >reference point of how they attract black youth, >deter the white cake layer implanted beneath >their so-called 'black attraction'? <P>Ummm...my point was that a problack "conscious"hip hop act managed to tour with DIFFERENT TYPES of black hip hop acts in a direct appeal to the black audience that was their foundation..and it was successful. The issue is not about detering white fans but appealing to black ones, if the white kids want to bandwagon so be it...that's what they always do anyway. <P>>Just because a band draws a black crowd doesn't mean they care. I'm sure Jay-Z doesn't look out into the crowd and say 'I'm so glad my people are actually coming out to reclaim what they created!'.<P>Please, you don't know what Jay-Z thinks...are you a mind reader now??? I've seen Jay walk through Marcy hanging with his people, giving money to kids, and just being a pleasant regular person when he had already blown up. Don't assume he lacks love for his people..everything I've ever heard JayZ say or do implies that he has respect for where he's from & what he came from, and all the people still there...misguided though he may be. And are you black btw? I think its some real divisive shit for you to be telling a black person how another black person DOESN'T care about them if you aren't black yourself. <P>>What's wrong with a white audience? <P>The same thing that has historically been wrong with whites in this country. <P>>If the bands that you listed were truly sincere >about their black fanbase, they would take the >money they make from the whites, and regenerate >it back into a community project of some sort. <P>Now you are truly speaking out of ignorance. Do some research, and check into the community activities and monetary contributions of NBN in East Orange, PE & LL in NY and worldwide to black people and our causes (I have no info on the geto boys but I'm sure they've contributed too).<P>>Bob Dylan, but he developed a form of rapping way >back in the 60's. Maybe curly haired Jewish >kids should reclaim their rights too! Allen Ginssberg, the beat poet was also along with Woody Guthre, one of the first major figures ever to speak in tones echoing what would become rap. <P>Pure jokes. Please take a history lesson & stop trippin', black people have been rappin' since we originated in the motherland. And the few white persons who did anything similar to rhyming do not a culture make. See this is the problem with caucasians, they come into a culture, appropriate it, then tell lies about how they really were the first to create something that they didn't. You're following a consistent pattern of white culture bandit behavior. <P><BR>>Plus, running my own magazine, I have met many of Toronto's and New York's and Montreal's concert promoters, and much to your dismay, they are generally black and/or asian. Not white.<P>And, what's your point? I don't have a problem with black concert promoters, though I do have a problem with any promoter that targets black groups for white audiences TO THE EXCLUSION OF black ones. <P>>In regards to the Wesley Snipes rebuttal, I laugh at how absurd his argument is. If the Roots are just going to start singing about guns, hoes, and cristal, in order to gain a more widespread black audience, then that is hollow, self-fostering, flacid bullshit. <P>First of all who said they have to rhyme about that crap to appeal to a widespread black audience??? Do you think black people are so ignorant and materialistic that we can't accept "concious" material. That's a racist & rude assumption in the first place & obviously not true as evidenced by oldschool PE and currently Lauren Hill & the Fugees who didn't & don't rhyme about disfunction & matieralism & had a strong black following (regardless of whether whites liked these acts or not). Apparently, we can get with Lauren, I hear here blastin' through Bedsty on a reg by the same people who blast JayZ. So it goes beyond a question of content to musical style, etc. <P>btw, I suggest you read Outlaw Culture by Bell Hooks (specifically chapter 11) & You're Mama's Disfunkional by Mike Dyson (I think - check the author), and Chuck D's book - then get back to me.<P>Peace

> I know its fairly old <BR>>but that whole thing about hip-hop <BR>>bein grassroots black music....Maybe thats what <BR>>it was and maybe in some <BR>>ways it is, but it seems <BR>>you are excluding its growth..hip-hop is <BR>>a soulful "grassrooot" artform. We <BR>>all know about the Asians involvement <BR>>with the genre,<P>we do? I don't. educate me. you mean at the foundation, in the early to mid seventies?<P> Anyone could(and maybe should) take <BR>>note of the businessman savvy and <BR>>expertise displayed by P and Puff, <BR>>but inform me of a cat <BR>>that is on top of shit <BR>>like those bruthas are, but who <BR>>still maintains their musical credibility<P>1) pre-92 Russell Simmons (well, Method man is actually the last dope person he signed IMO...ps: I don't count Jay Z as a signing, just a distrib deal).<P>2) steve rifkind - loud puts out dope music and a lot of it sells pretty well<P>3) blackstar - on a smaller level than the above, but these brothers have already bought the nation's oldest continuously run black bookstore, so they are showing their entrepreneurial spirit<P>4) Sylvia Rhone - one of the most powerful women in the music biz....the pop acts on her label are pretty much as original as pop rap gets (busta, missy) and she also has cats like bjork and rebekah (rebekah is dope!!!! peep in the new honey mag, album coming soon). Oh yeah, Sylvia Rhone is a black woman. Sistas represent...<P>There are more...<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

Peace Nesta...you make some valid points, but on one isue, I think I can clarify what the sista (?) who started this thread intended to say. That issue surrounds the idea of building the core black audience.<P>The intro to TFA clearly indicates that black support of the Roots and other progressive hip-hop groups is lacking. I don't think the music should be changed to alter this. I do, however, believe that the marketing could be changed. <P>Let's look at how all this starts, okay? We'll compare the rise of master P with the rise of teh Roots, as I understand the origins of both acts. Let's start with P.<P>P moves from the South to Richmond. He hears the style of rap that's popular there, local rap, and sees that the major stores aren't really catering to that demand as well as they could. Depending on whoe story you believe P opens a record store with funds from either (1) using insurance money he received as a beneficiary when his uncle died, (2) drug money, or (3) a combination of both (I vote 3, but that's just me). In any case, P opens the store and immediately establishes relationships with every "street rap" label i the Bay. Why? Because they want to sell their damn records. P starts putting together compilations composed of Bay Area artists. Then he gets the bright idea of crossmarketing artists down south (where he's from) with artists out West (where he's at) by putting them out together on compilations. Somewhere in here, P has started rapping himself, I'm not sure about the chronology there. Anyway, he's putting his own songs on this compilation as well and the world gets to see it's rist "Executive Producer: Master P" album credits.<P>Now, way over in Illadelph, you got this dope lil crew known as Square Roots. It starts with tariq and Quest and others add on, right? I'm not sure how he grassroots effort began (it does include their legendary performances on South Street though), but I do know they got the attention of some european promoters and they were off to the other side of the world.<P>Contrasting these early beginnings, I see different paths being taken. I mean P, in my humble opinion, sucks as a rapper. So he did a lot of politicking/business moves to ingratiate himself into his local scene (at that time, the Bay). After e had gotten a good name in that scene, he started reaching back to New Orleans and established himself there. Sort of a hood by hood promotional campaign. To oversimplify drastically (don't hit me Quest), the Roots seem to have established a small fan base in Philly, then went overseas (where I'm sure the money and respect was better). It seems (now this is just my opinion) that they skipped the step of building their fan base domestically before they made that move (now, mind you, I said the money was probably better overseas).<P>As far as appealing to black audiences, to me there's only one way of doing that, which is to travel what used to be referrd to as the chitlin circuit. A shortcut around that today is to have a hot club hit, but it still involves touring. The Roots tour relentlessly, probably more than 90% of the acts out there. I know they don't control their own booking. I know Geffen mismarketed them (at least, I should say "I think Geffen..." because it's my opinion), but I think they skipped the "chitlin circuit" in those tours. the outdoor festivals in the hood, the hole in the wall clubs in the middle of the hood, leaving fliers in barber shops for shows...<P>I don't know, this is all speculation. I don't think an "avant garde" group ever blew up grassroots in the black community. When I say avant garde, I'm thinking Jimi Hendrix, Sun Ra, et cetera. Um, can anyone think of any exceptions to that overgeneralized rule I just threw down? Wu-Tang, maybe?<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

>Peace Nesta...you make some valid points, but <BR>>on one isue, I think I <BR>>can clarify what the sista (?) <BR>>who started this thread intended to <BR>>say. That issue surrounds the idea <BR>>of building the core black audience. <BR>><BR>>The intro to TFA clearly indicates that <BR>>black support of the Roots and <BR>>other progressive hip-hop groups is lacking. <BR>>I don't think the music should <BR>>be changed to alter this. I <BR>>do, however, believe that the marketing <BR>>could be changed. <BR>>Let's look at how all this starts, <BR>>okay? We'll compare the rise of <BR>>master P with the rise of <BR>>teh Roots, as I understand the <BR>>origins of both acts. Let's start <BR>>with P. <BR>>P moves from the South to Richmond. <BR>>He hears the style of rap <BR>>that's popular there, local rap, and <BR>>sees that the major stores aren't <BR>>really catering to that demand as <BR>>well as they could. Depending on <BR>>whoe story you believe P opens <BR>>a record store with funds from <BR>>either (1) using insurance money he <BR>>received as a beneficiary when his <BR>>uncle died, (2) drug money, or <BR>>(3) a combination of both (I <BR>>vote 3, but that's just me). <BR>>In any case, P opens the <BR>>store and immediately establishes relationships with <BR>>every "street rap" label i the <BR>>Bay. Why? Because they want to <BR>>sell their damn records. P starts <BR>>putting together compilations composed of Bay <BR>>Area artists. Then he gets the <BR>>bright idea of crossmarketing artists down <BR>>south (where he's from) with artists <BR>>out West (where he's at) by <BR>>putting them out together on compilations. <BR>>Somewhere in here, P has started <BR>>rapping himself, I'm not sure about <BR>>the chronology there. Anyway, he's putting <BR>>his own songs on this compilation <BR>>as well and the world gets <BR>>to see it's rist "Executive Producer: <BR>>Master P" album credits. <BR>>Now, way over in Illadelph, you got <BR>>this dope lil crew known as <BR>>Square Roots. It starts with tariq <BR>>and Quest and others add on, <BR>>right? I'm not sure how he <BR>>grassroots effort began (it does include <BR>>their legendary performances on South Street <BR>>though), but I do know they <BR>>got the attention of some european <BR>>promoters and they were off to <BR>>the other side of the world. <BR>><BR>>Contrasting these early beginnings, I see different <BR>>paths being taken. I mean P, <BR>>in my humble opinion, sucks as <BR>>a rapper. So he did a <BR>>lot of politicking/business moves to ingratiate <BR>>himself into his local scene (at <BR>>that time, the Bay). After e <BR>>had gotten a good name in <BR>>that scene, he started reaching back <BR>>to New Orleans and established himself <BR>>there. Sort of a hood by <BR>>hood promotional campaign. To oversimplify drastically <BR>>(don't hit me Quest), the Roots <BR>>seem to have established a small <BR>>fan base in Philly, then went <BR>>overseas (where I'm sure the money <BR>>and respect was better). It seems <BR>>(now this is just my opinion) <BR>>that they skipped the step of <BR>>building their fan base domestically before <BR>>they made that move (now, mind <BR>>you, I said the money was <BR>>probably better overseas). <BR>>As far as appealing to black audiences, <BR>>to me there's only one way <BR>>of doing that, which is to <BR>>travel what used to be referrd <BR>>to as the chitlin circuit. A <BR>>shortcut around that today is to <BR>>have a hot club hit, but <BR>>it still involves touring. The Roots <BR>>tour relentlessly, probably more than 90% <BR>>of the acts out there. I <BR>>know they don't control their own <BR>>booking. I know Geffen mismarketed them <BR>>(at least, I should say "I <BR>>think Geffen..." because it's my opinion), <BR>>but I think they skipped the <BR>>"chitlin circuit" in those tours. the <BR>>outdoor festivals in the hood, the <BR>>hole in the wall clubs in <BR>>the middle of the hood, leaving <BR>>fliers in barber shops for shows... <BR>><BR>>I don't know, this is all speculation. <BR>>I don't think an "avant garde" <BR>>group ever blew up grassroots in <BR>>the black community. When I say <BR>>avant garde, I'm thinking Jimi Hendrix, <BR>>Sun Ra, et cetera. Um, can <BR>>anyone think of any exceptions to <BR>>that overgeneralized rule I just threw <BR>>down? Wu-Tang, maybe? <BR>>Peace, <BR>>Spirit <a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a> <a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a> DC hip-hop is on <BR>>the rise... <P><BR>

<BR>>SORRY, black folks NEVER really supported <BR>>traditonal jazz. It was better <BR>>than it is now! But pick <BR>>up any jazz history book or <BR>>(auto)biography and the evidence is on <BR>>every page. <P>You forget that at that time, many of the clubs which were photographed (liek the Cotton Club) were segregated and no blacks were allowed. <P>You're completely wrong about black folks not spporting jazz. No form of black music has blossomed without initial black support. My grandfather (God bless the dead) was a jazz musician. Many of his performances were in front of all black audiences. Stop playing with history, man...fuck a book, ask somebody that was there...<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

Live from Vegas yet again. Sprirt I just combined a bunc of your comments in here. I don't have time to get to everything.<P>>You forget that at that time, many <BR>>of the clubs which were photographed <BR>>(liek the Cotton Club) were segregated <BR>>and no blacks were allowed. <BR>>You're completely wrong about black folks not <BR>>spporting jazz. No form of black <BR>>music has blossomed without initial black <BR>>support. My grandfather (God bless the <BR>>dead) was a jazz musician. Many <BR>>of his performances were in front <BR>>of all black audiences. Stop playing <BR>>with history, man...fuck a book, ask <BR>>somebody that was there... <P>Spirit,<P>You misread my post or didn't read the follow-up post. Don't put words in my mouth. Jazz, the art form, exists solely because of black folks, PERIOD. Secondly, jazz was much more popular than it is now, but it was by no mean the most popular music in the land, so overall the jazz crowd was a small subset of the entire population, whereas hiphop has passed country music in terms of popularity. And as far as fuck a book. I guess you're right, LeRoi Jones wasn't there, Miles Davis wasn't there, Gary Giddings wasn't there, Nat Hentoff wasn't there! But here's what I actually wrote:<P>>Black folks liked jazz back then but we were not >the ones in the clubs financially suporting the >artisits for many reasosn. <P>>Miles never said that "black people never supported jazz" as you posit. <P>>Again, you are equating financial support with >support, which is illogical to me. You said >"black folks never supported traditional jazz" >as if black people were like "That jazz shit is >wack". There are many ways to support beyond >buying a concert ticket.<P>I NEVER EQUATED FINANCIAL SUPPORT AS THE ONLY TYPE OF SUPPORT. I was referring to the other sista constantly bringing up commercial success as some proxy of reaching the everyday man in Hip-hop. AND AGAIN, the books I referred to were meant to point out the FINANCIAL part of the game. I bring up FINANCES so much because so much of what we're debating comes down to money and resources. And yes there were people (both black and white) saying that the bebop shit is wack (Again, I made specific reference to Bebop) that were not trying to hear anything except for the big band stuff. <P>I didn't miss the sista's point about building a core balck audience. You are 100% right that marketing could be changed to help some. However, my original point that got this whole big beautiful ball rolling is that there exists a great deal of market and industry forces that prevent this from happening. The chitlin' circuit ananogy worries me because that's almost always synonymous with second-rate. I doubt that's what you intended though. And as you stated avant garde group has never blew up grasroots in theblack communtiy. However, the point that worries me the most is that Jimi Hendrix and the Roots shouldn't be considered avant-garde or alternative. What they do (did) is steeped deeply in the tradition of black music but they are labeled and if you're considered alternative in the black community you can forget it. <P>1.) Again, I was talking about financial support of jazz. Jazz was brought up, loved, cultivated and suported by Blacks in all ways possible. HOWEVER, non-blacks, namely Jews, were the ones that financially supported jazz espeially during the days that jazz was not deemed cutting edge and hip! (i.e. Rock getting bigger, Funk movement, disco era, etc.) This is evident in how musicians toured and lived. The musicians went to where the work was because almost no one could make any real money off of recordings. (When Bird cut a song like say "Confirmation" It was pressed as a 78 and selling 5,000 copies was a big deal. And record companies were a lot shadier then.) For example, when cool jazz became all the rave in Cali, Bird and Dizz and Co. moved their asses to Cali because there was strong demand (mainly white demand) for the music. That's how they paid the bills.<P>2. Again, I said there were many reasons that blacks weren't in the club and I outlined two as follows:<BR>>(1.) segregation in some clubs - so folks had to >wait till three in the Morning for the jam >sessions at places like Minton's Playhouse, etc. >but the segregation in the clubs ended a lot >sooner than in did society (2.) Bebop and the >like were very much treated like rap in some >regards when it first came out. Some Black folk >often referred to it as the Devil's Music. Louis >Armstrong constantly dissed Diz and Bird in >print and in song! Bop was supported by the >Beatnik crowd mainly in those days. Big Band >Jazz was financially supported by whites s well >even though blacks were into it as well. <BR> <BR>Of course blacks went to see the artists play like as I mentioned the legendary Minton's Playhouse in Harlem. Hell, back in the day Newark, NJ had like 10 jazz clubs and blacks supported them as well. But the big pay days and the constant paydays and(if evidenced on how/when/where musicians played) a whole lot of backing came from other than black folks which is why so many artsist just say eff the US and moved to Paris where the art form was more appreciated.<P>>Stop playing. "Exclusive support" isn't the issue. <P>This whole discussion is killing me cause , It's almost like folks are making it seem like I'm over here touting how great white folks have been to us! That's not even nearly anything I'm trying to say. Blacks supporting en masse is a key issue but to what end???? <P>NO artist can make a living off of 100% black support the numbers just don't work. My whole point in bringing up how PE and ICE CUBE have/had substantial white support was a response to nahysma because she seemed to be implying that the Puffy and Jay-Z as making records for "real" black folks, while The Roots and others seemed to not be doing that, thus explaining the reason why fewer black folks seem to be into the Roots and why the'r records don't sell as much. I think ?uest shed light on that, Puffy, Jay-Z, etc. are trying to make as much $ as possible, thus they are targeting what they think can sell in the Malls of America. <P>And PE, being the black nationalists that the are (and one of my all-time favorite groups), it always seemed odd that the majority of their revenue came from non-blacks. I doubt the non-blacks had any intent on becoming black nationalists and even though I hesitate to say this, a whole lot of the black folks that were pumpin PE back in the day were probably not about black nationalism either. Because if they were I doubt everyone would've tossed their back medallions so quickly when the whole "gangsta" rap thing became all the rave.<P>>I'd disagree strongly. I like Dru <BR>> Hill and they're cool and <BR>>all as far as Jodeci impersonators <BR>>go. But there is the <BR>>"black" tradition of grassroots and blues <BR>>and soul and gospel and rock <BR>>that the Lenny kravitzes of the <BR>>world touch and express<P>>You can't possibly mean that you think Lenny has >the vocal range of Cisqo of Dru Hill. Stop >playing...that's all the sista was referring to. >point blank, if you want to break it down, my >man Cisqo is a better singer than 90% of the >"alternative" singers you care to name. He has >the voice, he lacks the creativity.<P>A Lenny Kravitz Dru Hill debate doesn't interest me in the least bit. My point fro raisng Lenny and Prince and others wsa to question Nahysma (sp.) point about making "black music". As I read one of her comments (( and you can read it for yourself) she seemed to suggest that some of the penetration problems taht The Roots and Common and Mosdef had were due to them not making "black music" or music for the roundtheway types. My point with Prince, Lenny and others is that they do make "black music", but it is not perceived as "real" black music by record industry types therefore head don't get to here it. Maybe she was simply referring to vocal range, but its not Cisqo (sp.) vocal range that has them on every black radio station. Someone has deemd them as "black music" where as Me'Shell Ndgecello is alternative (and Dru Hill don't have shit for that sister).<P><BR>Damn, this is a great discussion, but I got to get back to the Black Jack tables, I'm on aroll!<P>"Rehab is for QUITTERS!" - Anonymous Drunk<BR>

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I came here asking about who selects which acts the Roots tours with because touring with Everlast doesn't seem like a move made to gain a larger black audience. <BR>__________________________________________________ <P>I'll get with you about jazz later but I wanted to address this:<P>>However, the point that worries me the most is that Jimi Hendrix and the Roots shouldn't be considered avant-garde or alternative. <P>If the Roots are considering avant-garde/alternative, I think its not just because of the "advanced" musical style or lyrics but also marketing, media, & perception. <P>>NO artist can make a living off of 100% black support the numbers just don't work. <P>This is simply not true...ask any gospel singer. Shirley Cesar, Tremaine Hawkins, Yolanda Adams, etc. live fairly well off of black dollars. So does Gerald Levert, Keith Sweat, Johnny Gil..who never had white support in any substantial numbers. <P>My whole point in bringing up how PE and ICE CUBE have/had substantial white support was a response to nahysma because she seemed to be implying >that the Puffy and Jay-Z as making records for "real" black folks, while The Roots and others seemed <BR>>to not be doing that. And PE, it always seemed <BR>>odd that the majority of their revenue came from non-blacks.<P>ummmm...so what? I (and many blacks) heard, partied to, saw and loved PE without having to deal with caucasians...that's my point. There are more whites in the USA than blacks - if 30% of white youth loved PE or NWA, that doesn't mean that 60% of black youth weren't loving them (though 30% of them can equal in # more than 60% of us). <P>>even though I hesitate to say this, a whole lot of the black folks that were pumpin PE back in the day were probably not about black nationalism either>. <P>I would bet that more of us were truly about black nationalism than the white kids. While the medallions, etc. was a fad for most part, the general vibe had a lasting impression on hip hop and is evident in groups like NWA (I can break that down to if you want). Also some of the principles of nationalism are in No Limit, which is a far more financially autonomous (from whites ) orgnization than PE ever was. btw, check how D supported Hammer in his book.<P>>As I read one of her comments (( and you can read it for yourself) she seemed to suggest that some of the penetration problems taht The Roots and Common and Mosdef had were due to them not making "black music" or music for the roundtheway types. <P>No, I never said that the Roots weren't making "black music" because I don't feel that way @ all. I do think that given the style of hip hop they are doing, its even more imperative that they reach out & promote themselves in the general black market IF they want to capture it. Hip hop music is inherently youth orientated & has always had a strong party/dance focus, and the Roots music can come across as mature (which is refreshing to me) and not particularly party orientated. To me that explains some of their lack of appeal to kids 14 - 19. I can't think of a truly legendary/popular hip hop act that didn't have one song that rocked every house party, black clubs, etc relative to the hip hop audience existing @ the time (ie Eric B for Prez rocked the entire hip hop nation which was smaller than the Gin . The Roots make GREAT music (as I said, I have all their albums except Organix) but they (imo) haven't made a dance/party hit (of the kind that inspired me to get up & do the James backintheday or even to bounce in 99)....no Eric Bridge Is Over, Shook Ones Pt II, Sucka Mcs, Doo Wop, Doo Doo Brown, Make Em Say Ugghhh, I'll House You, How About Some Hardcore (yeah it was a party jam), Inspectah Gadget, PE #1, Ain't No Half Steppin', Scenario, T.R.O.Y, etc. (those were NY party tracks). Its going to be a lot harder to gain popularity without that. I think all hip hop acts need to keep Rakim's lyrics (As the Rhyme Goes On) in mind when they make records..that's the essence of hip hop. <P>Though could argue that the Roots have made party tracks that people just refuse to party too, I think the Next Movement is a danceable track (maybe the video could've highlighted that aspect more) that the djs haven't played enough. <P>

Eric B for Prez rocked the entire hip hop nation which was much smaller than when Gin & Juice did the same....both were party tracks.<P><BR>

>>The Roots are not from NY so I wouldn't expect them to be here and I<BR> can't speak on their local activity in Philly (I'm sure they do what they can) but you get my<BR> point. <P>For the record, the Roots performed a free show at the 1998 Odunde African American Festival, possibly one of the biggest community-oriented gatherings in the city of PHL. It was a great show; they played through a little rain in fact. You could really feel them connecting with the people. And this crowd had heads that were wrapped, braided, dreaded, faded, weaved, permed, balded, etc. <P><P><BR><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

I was there blazin a fatty on stage(on da far left)...I'm glad somebody remembered/and made an accurate analysis..cats felt them.<P>PEACE<BR> .02c added by SARE ONE

.

<BR>>THE ROOTS ARE NOT CONCERT PROMOTERS (?uest <BR>>you can thank me later)<P>thanks!<P>"god made me thankful"

check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

A friend and I promoted a Roots show in Chapel Hill ( at the Cats Cradle), NC shortly after the DYWM? album dropped. It took major efforts just to get them to come down here (I don't thinnk they were touring as much right then). We had a shoestring budget, so we only could print up flyers and beg the local college stations to help us advertise. Most of the news of the show was spread word of mouth. Irregardless, the place was packed with a well rounded mixture of skin colors and culture. The vibe wasn't changed by the crowd cause it was owned by the Roots, who put on one of the nicest shows in memory. And as far as the "roundtheway" types, most of those down here have some twisted obsession with being thugs/"hard"/wu-tang (the criminal side)/biggie/or jayZ. Not to mention that these types often bring weapons to any venue, so no, we didn't want them fucking up everyone else's good time. I hope I shed some light from an independent promoter's perspective. If I didn't,let me know, and I'll try to clarify anything I've said. <P><BR>Peace is not the word to play

I mentioned in another reply that I went to see Rakim @ Union Square backintheday and there was a shootout. In my experience, that was not an unusual thing then but hip hop shows are relatively safe NOW (aroundtheway crowd or not). Is there an assumption that aroundtheway crowds are more dangerous? Or is it that those events which are promoted to them tend to have inadequate security, inadequate preparation, etc and as a result are prone to incidents. <P><BR>Do you think maybe its a little biased to assume that aroundtheway ie poor/lower middle class blacks are anymore prone to violence or disruptive than anyone else? I've been to Biggie, Wu, JayZ, thugout emcee shows without incident. At Woodstock women were getting raped and the crowd was completely out of control...those were hardly the thugged out types. <P>Please do clarify <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif">

>I mentioned in another reply that I <BR>>went to see Rakim @ Union <BR>>Square backintheday and there was a <BR>>shootout. In my experience, that was <BR>>not an unusual thing then but <BR>>hip hop shows are relatively safe <BR>>NOW (aroundtheway crowd or not). <P>-to respond to that, here in NC, almost every HipHop show in NC(except for the Roots, KRS-ONE and a De La/Tribe show) has had gunplay and fights. Most places here won't even book HipHop shows for that reason alone. we had to beg to let that one club even let the Roots play. By the way, shouldn't violence be an unusual thing at a concert?<BR> <BR>>Is there an assumption that aroundtheway <BR>>crowds are more dangerous? Or <BR>>is it that those events which <BR>>are promoted to them tend to <BR>>have inadequate security, inadequate preparation, etc <BR>>and as a result are prone <BR>>to incidents. <P>- The the type of crowd I specifically referred to in my post are generally the ones causing trouble. Adequate security and all. Most shows here require security/ or police presence. <P><BR>> Do you think maybe its a <BR>>little biased to assume that aroundtheway <BR>>ie poor/lower middle class blacks are <BR>>anymore prone to violence or disruptive <BR>>than anyone else? I've been to <BR>>Biggie, Wu, JayZ, thugout emcee shows <BR>>without incident. <P>- I never mentioned the thug crowds' income or perceived "race". You did. They come in all sizes, shapes, colors, and incomes here. Are thugs prone to violence? Are you kidding me? For example, Nas performed a show here where the crowd was shooting at him! Shots also ended a Smif&Wesson show.One of Biggie's entourage critically wounded a crowd member who was trying to shoot at them. Hell, there were even shots when Kwame performed. <P><BR> At Woodstock women <BR>>were getting raped and the crowd <BR>>was completely out of control...those were <BR>>hardly the thugged out types. <P>- Am I to suppose normal civilized individuals committed those atrocities? Come on now. Oppressive heat, $4 for WATER, and severe lack of crowd control helped contribute to the chaos there. <BR> <BR>>Please do clarify <P>- I hope I have. To restate, most of the aroundtheway types HERE IN NC tend to be on the commercially overhyped thug life BS. As a promoter I have to be aware of what crowd is targeted and what isn't.<P>PS I also mostly agree with Nesta's posts on this subject.<P><BR>Peace is not the word to play

I completely agree with Nesta's posts. I think "mostly" want to go home from work.<P>Peace is not the word to play

Proper security @ any event would stop a lot of the violence. Yeah its not supposed to happen but it does - a lot less nowadays than before IMO. <P>When I say aroundtheway crowds I am talking about mostly black & latino poor/lower & middle class blacks...maybe that wasn't clear. <P>I don't think that the majority of the people (thug looking or not_ going to a Nas or Smif & Wesson show (for example) is are any more violent than the majority of people attending Woodstock. Its just that violent anti-social behavior on the part of a few are expressed in different ways ie they shoot out @ the Nas show, they rape women, burn ish, and use hard drugs @ Woodstock.<P>

First off thanks for not taking my words too harsh. I like a good discussion. As far as security goes, I think your statement goes without saying. On that I agree. We both agree that the majority of people are not the ones screwing up shows for everyone else. I don't blame promoters for the turnout though. Generally, media coverage targeted for aroundtheway (your definition) types is the commercial BS. Poverty can often mean a lack of real choices (especially when the powers that be promote negative stereotypes for profit), so some only get the No Limit or Ruff Ryder stuff. If someone is really into quality music and good HipHop, it still has to be sought out by the individual. The only part that's up to the band or the promoter is to make sure the outlet for quality music is available. Thanks for posting something worth discussing (damn, I don't mean to sound so jaded!)<P><BR>Peace is not the word to play

As a black male over 25 I identify with what the sister is talking about. The same thing can be said in DC in terms of promotion. When they come to town it is promoted primarily in the City paper which is comparable to the Village Voice but in DC. It's a weekly free paper which is found primarily downtown, Capitol Hill, a few record stores like Tower. I don't ever remember seeing a City Paper in Willie's, black owned record store chain in the area. The major radio stations here, WKYS and WPGC, are definitely not trying to give away free tickets to a Roots concert like say a Def Jam Tour. As you mentioned I am more partial to the Wesley Snipes arguement in the scene in Mo Better Blues in the hallway. However, Denzel offers some legitimate points too. As much as I love Miles Davis, would I have been able to afford to see him in a club in Manhattan back in the day. Would I have been comfortable in that environment.<BR> A lot of factors are innvolved with this. I feel somewhat disappointed when I attend Roots concerts. I'm not upset at the performance at all. Good music is spiritual to me and I just wish some of my black peers could experience that energy as well. It's like when you have some crucial, I am going to make every effort to save some for my man so he can feel that too. Bird of a feather flock together and I'm just more comfortable in environments with people who look a lot like myself. I don't think that's a lot to ask for in the DC "The Chocolate City". I have seen them twice at the 9:30 club and twice, I have been outnumbered. The 9:30 club is basiclly a place for alternative acts to perform. I'm sure a lot of brothers in the city don't know about it and it's not even a mile away from Howard University. I'm not going to see them next month at the Nissan Pavillion for 2 reasons. I have no interest in seeing Everlast. I have no interest in going way out to Manassas a suburb of DC to see them. It's bad enough when I see them in DC, I know what I'm in for if I travel out there.<BR> Last is the music and the messages that are conveyed. It seems like the "round the way" types are more attracted to music that captures images that they see around the way, money, sex, and drugs. A lot of my friends consider The Roots phony because they are not beating you in the head with that kind of ish and they feel like they can't relate. On the other hand, a lot of Roots fans may not be into a Jay Z or a Noriega. Of course, I'm steretyping but chances are if you are around our age and you like the Roots you also like everybody affiliated with the Native Tongues. If you go to the General Discussion, Common, Tribe, De La, D'Angelo, Lauryn Hill, are discussed just as much as The Roots. Probably a music lover in general, owning music of various genres. If you are a woman, there is a good chance you rock the head wrap. You seek various cultural events to attend. You often find these events in the Village Voice\City Paper. Probably educated, because you first heard the Roots at a show at school. So many people think the Roots only have like 2 albums. Artsy, ecclectic are words used to describe you. I don't know about in NY, but in DC these two crowds rarely mix with each other. I guess the goal is to find a common medium to expose The Roots to people from all walks of like. The questions is, do they want to be exposed.<P>Peace<BR>

The major urban stations in the DC area probably aren't inclined to promote shows of acts they barely play on their station. That's why you don't hear about these shows on Kiss and PGC. <P>About 9:30 club, I've seen the Roots and Erykah there. It's actually one of the best venues in town to see a performer. Unfortunately, hip-hop acts were rarely booked there unless they fell into that "alternative" category. However, now they have recognized the hip-hop dollar and I putting more artists on the stage. Nas & Foxxy Brown are hardly alternative, and they've done recent shows at 9:30.<P>You can't rely on PGC & Kiss to mention these type of shows, they mostly ignored Gang Starr's perf at Nation. DC doesn't have a lot of great venues for performance, unless you wanna see people in the basment of DC Live. PGC & Kiss seem to only promote big tours at MCI, R&B crooners at Constitution Hall, and whatever shit club they are broadcasting from.<P>And as far as Nissan, sometimes you gotta roll out to catch a big arena show. Back when I was in NY, a lot of big tours were coming into suburban locales like the Meadowlands and Nassau Coliseum.<P>What I find disturbing is that many black people think their music world begins and ends on their major urban station. Somebody who is going to appreciate more music has to put soem effort into seeking it out. <P>I find it discouraging sometimes to see so few black people sometimes at these shows. I wa at a Run-DMC joint at the Bayou in DC, and it was 90% white, which shocked me seeing as I can remember seeing them back in the day in Queens and the ratio was flipped.<P>p.s. GZA/Rahzel at 9:30 club on the 14th<P><P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

You are right. I remember when Nas and Foxy Brown performed at the 9:30 Club. I wasnt' there but I'm willing to bet you it was not sold out. And the spot is not that big. I agree with you about the the 9:30 club being one of the best venues in town to see a show. I saw The Roots there twice. Both phenomenal!!! However, since it has been the 9:30 club I still say it is a spot primarily for alternative acts. . If you ride past there on a weekday or weekend you will only see teenage white kids outside. It's almost like some of them kids patronize the spot regardless of who is playing. The Bayou is the same situation. Look where it is, right in the middle of Georgetown. We go out there for the restaurants but the night life in G'Town caters exclusively to them. When you have venues that we normally don't patronize you have to promote at other places besides Howard and The City Paper. If you don't, only a small segment of the population will know about the show. There has to be a way to expose The Roots to people from all walks of life. Especially, in a town like DC which is very much music oriented. The home of the percussion live band go go sound. I'm sure a lot of people could appreciate The Roots. IF they knew about them. <P>DC is not as culturally diverse as NY. For instance, I was in NY last weekend and we went to this spot Nells on Friday. It was some of everybody in there. There is a definite distinction between the cultural crowd and the rough crowd here. They don't mix, plain and simple. In places I frequent like Republic Gardens, you rarely see the head wraps.<P>Peace

What would you consider the black performance venues in DC? And, why don't they book these performers?<P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

Funny I first heard the Roots @ a house party uptown, the dj mixed in Do You Want More...and I was late.<P>I do think people pidgeon hole themselves on both sides though frankly I find the "thugged out" crowd far more tolerant of the headwrapped cultural type than the other way around. Like I said before, I think good music will travel if its presented in a way that's not alienating. I also think that the majority of hip hop played on urban stations are upbeat party type tracks...if it moves the clubs people will check for it. Maybe the djs need to find a way to play more Roots tracks @ parties. I, for example, play the Roots while cleaning my crib on Sundays. I don't party as much but if I did I'd probably want to hear something more along the lines of the Eve "What Ya Want" track. The vibes are very different. <P>

Just to start, I've been dj'ing for about 7 years. Doing clubs since I started and doing radio for the last 5 years. I've been immersed in the whole business, and my partner DJ Book spins on WPGC which is the #1 urban station in the DC market. We slog through the bullshit on a regular basis and see all the snakes for what they are.<P>> Like I said before, I <BR>>think good music will travel if <BR>>its presented in a way that's <BR>>not alienating.<P>What does this mean?<P> I also think that <BR>>the majority of hip hop played <BR>>on urban stations are upbeat party <BR>>type tracks...<P>The majority of hip-hop played on urban stations is a tiny segment of music that is deemed "hot" by anal, payola taking program directors. <P>They are choosing their playlists from a pool of records created by white corporations that have convinced black people that our worst vices make for great entertainment.<P>This is in D.C. though, and in NYC and many other major markets. This is not the case everywhere though. Some markets have commercial radio that's more varied, like Atlanta, L.A. and the Bay area.<P>Master P's success is a fortunate (for him) coincidence in that his gritty "hood" music (I won't debate its artistic merit) soundly meshed with the dominant themes being spewed from the major labels.<P>No Limit's popularity is a chance convergence of street level nihilism with commercially generated nihilism.<P>if it moves the clubs <BR>>people will check for it. Maybe <BR>>the djs need to find a <BR>>way to play more Roots tracks <BR>>@ parties.<P>I wish it was that easy...<BR>Back in the day the DJ's in the clubs were the arbiters of what is fresh. You had to have varied playlists, mixing skills, an ear for what was dope. As a club jock, you were the trendsetter.<P>PEOPLE CAME TO CLUBS TO HEAR THE NEWEST, HOTTEST SHIT!!<P>You'd be excited when the DJ dropped something you hadn't heard before.<P>Nowadays, thanks to commercial radio, the club DJ has become a glorified jukebox. People really want to come to the club and here the same fucking songs that they already heard 50 times on the radio that day. You don't give them that, there's hell to pay from the crowd. They don't care to here anything that they haven't been brainwashed to believe is hot. They don't want to/know how to think for themselves.<P>DJ'S CAN'T "BREAK" RECORDS ANYMORE. Either in the clubs or on the radio.<P>That's why I don't do that shit anymore. I used to hustle for gigs alot, but I got sick of that life (Republic Gardens, Quigley's, DC Live, The Ritz, etc.)<BR>I've been punched in the stomach by a girl who demanded that I play "The Benjamins" for a fourth time. (don't laugh) I've been physically threatened over demands for another DMX song. When "Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Can See" came out, I was excited because it was such a hot party song. I played it in the club about 3 weeks before commercial radio got to it.<P>The whole dance floor cleared.<P>Once 'PGC jumped on it, a month later people were falling over themselves to get in my face requesting that song.<P>Now I only DJ clubs/parties when I know it's a progressive crowd. I don't get nearly the fame and loot that my peers get (Celo, Iran, Shablast, Trini, Sixth Sense, Rico, etc.) but I enjoy it more. I focus more now on performing with the various acts I work with. More money, less getting jerked, more creativity.<P>Each time my man Book got a hip-hop show in 'PGC, they used to reprimand him for playing too much new music. Can you believe that? On a fucking mixshow they were giving out memo's documenting playlist offenses. To this day he still has to sneak dope records into the studio and do a quick risk calculation in his head of how many "hot" (ie: bullshit) records he has to play before he can slip on that new Gangstarr.<P>And no one ever documents the phone calls from the listeners. They would call in all the time asking for the new Mos Def, or Pete Rock, or the Roots. None of that was factored into the programming decisions. They only used tools that are already controlled by the industry and are a farce of objective trend research: trade magazines, conference calls, regional playlists.<P>-djstylusisanangrybastard<BR><a href="http://www.boondocks.net">http://www.boondocks.net<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.strictlyhiphop.com">http://www.strictlyhiphop.com<;/a><BR>"do your part and support the art you like, 2 turntables and a mic" - Unspoken Heard<P>Okayplayer posting frequency follows a function inverse to job satisfaction<BR>

.:|djstylus|:.
www.vibeconductor.com

>I've been punched in the stomach by a girl who demanded that I play "The Benjamins" for a fourth time. (don't laugh)<P>Too late...<P>You are bringing up some great points. Must agree that I was shocked at how much more diversity was in the LA airwaves. DC might be singlehandedly the worst radio market I've experienced.<P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

DC <BR>>might be singlehandedly the worst radio <BR>>market I've experienced. <P>If NC didn't have any college radio, it would be the worst, hands down. <P><BR>Peace is not the word to play

<a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion">http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion<;/a>

Peace is not the word to play

>If NC didn't have any college radio, it would be the worst, hands down. <P>I can attest to that. I don't even listen to the radio anymore. I can't stand hearing the same 5 songs played over and over all day. Especially when the five songs or either from Puffy or Master P.

if you're in the Durham-Greensboro area check my show on Fridays starting in Sept. on Elon College's station 89.3Fm...it's from 8-10pm...<P>-DJ BumRush<BR>(the okayplayer formerly known as Shaw)<P>"On a Quest for Love like the Proceed Drummer" -Common<P><a href="http://www.sankofamusic.com">http://www.sankofamusic.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.thenobodies.com">http://www.thenobodies.com<;/a>

to the cipher. i lived up in dc for a while and have been down here in nc for 6 years. commercial radio in both spots is wick-wick-whack. <P>back when underground 88 was really bangin' i did an article on a-1 an them cats for the independent and we spoke on a lot of these issues. college radio has playlists too, but they're nowhere near as bad as commercial radio. i was feelin' 102 jamz for a minute, but for at least the last year or so, if it ain't puffy, p, dmx, jay-z, etc., it ain't on. <P>nowadays i listen to nccu - they play decent jazz during the week and straight from the crates on saturdays. in dc my joint was wpfw. if i want hip hop, its strictly a cd or tape.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

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I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

Thank You, thank you!!<P>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>"I'm passionate, not evil!" - Stress (aka Angieee)<P>To be young, gifted and black, Oh what a lovely precious dream<BR>To be young, gifted and black, Open your heart to what I mean<BR>In the whole world you know. There are billion boys and girls<BR>Who are young, gifted and black, And that's a fact! - N.Simone/W. Irvine

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"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

> Like I said before, I <BR>>>think good music will travel if <BR>>>its presented in a way that's <BR>>>not alienating.<P>to clarify: If the music is good it will travel among black people (and eventually others) far & wide. This has been the history of black american music. If the music is presented within a "scene" that is alienating then that will hinder the way & how it travels. Ie it took a while for NY to get with West coast hip hop because NYers are simply arrogant and the presentation surrounding the music was something we couldn't (or refused to) get with. <P>>The majority of hip-hop played on urban <BR>>stations is a tiny segment of <BR>>music that is deemed "hot" by <BR>>anal, payola taking program directors. <BR>>They are choosing their playlists from a <BR>>pool of records created by white <BR>>corporations that have convinced black people <BR>>that our worst vices make for <BR>>great entertainment. <P>plain & simple...I'm insulted by the implication that we're all mindless and solely @ the mercy of evil white corporation. Though I believe our tastes are shaped by major radio and media (and that's everyone including many in the "underground" scene as well)..every record played on major radio doesn't translate into a number 1 hit - therefore we do discriminate on some level. Many records with heavy advertising don't sell so it does go beyond that. Though many hate to admit it, some "commercial" records simply sound good. Funny story, I went to a birthday party of a complaining anti-industry rapper and guess what his dj threw on to get the party started? Badboy <BR>>Master P's success is a fortunate (for <BR>>him) coincidence in that his gritty <BR>>"hood" music (I won't debate its <BR>>artistic merit) soundly meshed with the <BR>>dominant themes being spewed from the <BR>>major labels.<P>bullshit...Master P worked hard for what he's achieved..its not luck. If the shit wasn't bangin' on some level, it would not have had regional appeal. People like the way it sounds and regardless of whether you (or I) think its artistic or not...well does it really matter. For every selling emcee there are 1000 more who don't. Its way more than coincidence...nihilism has always been popular & a lot of people do it, they don't all sell. <P> They don't care to here <BR>>anything that they haven't been brainwashed <BR>>to believe is hot. They don't <BR>>want to/know how to think for <BR>>themselves. >DJ'S CAN'T "BREAK" RECORDS ANYMORE. Either in >the clubs or on the radio. <P>once again you insult the intelligence of the average folk (but these are the people you play for?..if you don't respect the crowd is it any wonder there's a poor relationship? - but that's a another story). Maybe the djs need to step up their game. I went to a S & S party a while back where he played current ish, things I never heard before, and mad old school records (hip hop & r&b). The crowd of "brainwashed masses" was feeling it. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't or doesn't Flex break records @ the Tunnel before they get air play? (granted he gets paid off, from what I heard, but if shit doesn't bang @ the spots, it simply doesn't bang). There were many records that didn't work backintheday..PE changedup first album to 2nd to make their music more funky & rock clubs...without question. When PE first dropped a lot dancefloors got cleared...then they came funkier. <BR>><BR>>When "Put Your Hands Where>My Eyes Can See" came out I played it in the club about 3 weeks before commercial radio got to it. The whole dance floor cleared. Once 'PGC jumped on it, a month later people were falling over themselves to get in my face requesting that song. <P>Now I grew up in clubs....if the song is hot, people will dance unless the dj mixes it in wrong or otherwise fucks it up. I'm W.I. but I'm not a big dancehall fan, I've been put on to a lot of tracks on the dance floor. I've been in many spots where a dj has talent on the turntables but NO clue as to how to work a crowd - the difference btwn old school RedAlert type djs and more recent ones (including turntablists). No offense to you or your talent but I would love to hear how you went about playing that joint.<P><BR>>Now I only DJ clubs/parties when I <BR>>know it's a progressive crowd. <P>Now really, is that something Bambatta would've said? Read the articles and his thoughts & think about it. <P>I don't argue @ all with your statements about the industry.

it don't stop.<P>If the <BR>>music is presented within a "scene" <BR>>that is alienating then that will <BR>>hinder the way & how it <BR>>travels.<P>When I attend or participate in events in D.C. that are "conscious" or "progressive", there are often roundtheway brothas and sistas there. Even some thuggish types. I'm not being derogatory, because that's the background I grew up in. I welcome a mix of folks, because while I often get annoyed at the ignorance of a lot of the "hardrocks", I can get equally perturbed at the pretension of some of the "conscious" people. I've seen "hardrock" emcees get embarrassed in the cypher by a sister that refused to be called a bitch. I've seen "conscious" emcees get crunched by loud angry rappers when they stumbled in their clumsy big words... and I cheered.<P>>plain & simple...I'm insulted by the implication that we're all mindless and solely @ the mercy of evil white corporation.<P>I'm not implying that we're completely mindless. Because when it benefits us, we'll be quick to conform to whatever ignorant shuck-and-jive these corporations require to sign us. That takes some cost/benefit analysis. Then once we get some modicum of ownership and control (i.e. Puffy, but he still has to bow down to the distributors) we use our increased leverage to send even more bullshit down the pipeline, making our pockets that much fatter.<P>> Though I believe our tastes are shaped by major > radio and media (and that's everyone including > many in the "underground" scene as well)<P>I don't even use the term "underground". The underground/commercial schism is some more silly shit that has been discussed ad infinitum on these boards.<P>> ..every record played on major radio doesn't > translate into a number 1 hit - therefore we do > discriminate on some level.<P>This statement does not rebut my opinion of the overpowering influence of commercial radio.<P>Not every record can make it number 1. That's why it's called a number 1. There has to be some discrimination because no one has enough disposable income to buy every record they hear. Forgive my sarcasm but it makes a point.<P>> Many records with heavy advertising don't sell so it does go beyond that.<P>I wasn't talking about advertising. Every record that gets heavy commercial airplay is succesful though.<P>> Though many hate to admit it, some "commercial" records simply sound good<P>I don't hate to admit it. This was never part of the debate taking place. I love a lot of commercial records (Busta, Mary J., Redman, 112, Faith, etc.). I hate a lot of them too, but I also recognize that there's as much, or even more bullshit in the so-called "underground". This is tangential to our discussion.<P>> Funny story, I went to a birthday party of a complaining anti-industry rapper and guess what his dj threw on to get the party started? Badboy<P>So?<BR> <BR>>>Master P's success is a fortunate (for <BR>>>him) coincidence in that his gritty <BR>>>"hood" music (I won't debate its <BR>>>artistic merit) soundly meshed with the <BR>>>dominant themes being spewed from the <BR>>>major labels.<P>>bullshit...Master P worked hard for what he's <BR>>achieved..<BR>its not luck. If the shit <BR>>wasn't bangin' on some level, it <BR>>would not have had regional appeal.<P>I never said he didn't work hard. He did a masterful job to gain the huge regional following that sold truckloads of his records. IMHO, the luck comes in because the type of stuff he was peddling happened to coincide with what the power-brokers of the industry decided they wanted to push from their end, so they let him get a foot in the door. Don't get it twisted, Master P may have built a huge independent label and is a smart businessman, but he still signed on for distribution with Priority in the end. When black folk start getting Bertelsman type of juice then we can talk.<P>>People like the way it sounds <BR>>and regardless of whether you (or <BR>>I) think its artistic or not<P>My personal opinion of his music was never brought up.<P>>For every <BR>>selling emcee there are 1000 more <BR>>who don't.<P>What's the point of this? Of course everybody who rhymes is not going to blow up. That's self-evident.<P>>more than coincidence...nihilism has always been <BR>>popular & a lot of people <BR>>do it, they don't all sell.<P>It hasn't always been popular, come on now. And that "they don't all sell" argument was addressed earlier. If I put on a camoflauge suit, scream obscenities, and flaunt naked women in my videos and I don't blow up, that is no proof that the explanations I've been laying out in my previous arguments is false. <P>> They don't care to here <BR>>>anything that they haven't been brainwashed <BR>>>to believe is hot. They don't <BR>>>want to/know how to think for <BR>>>themselves. >DJ'S CAN'T "BREAK" RECORDS ANYMORE. Either in >the clubs or on the radio. <P>>once again you insult the intelligence of the average folk<P>No I'm not. Just stating frankly what it's like being on the frontlines of entertainment. When somebody wants to kick your ass out front of the club because you didn't play 5 Ruff Ryders songs in a row, that tells you something.<P>What I'm saying is not insulting. It comes down to this, the people that are brainwashed by commercial outlets are not ignorant. They just don't care about music too much. For me and people like us, music is a spiritual experience. It is a deep component of our personalities and culture. For a lot of other people, it's simply entertainment. They don't care to dig deep and challenge themselves with what they listen to, they're content to have it spoon-fed to them. <P>I never made a value judgement on anyone's intelligence, don't put words in my mouth.<P>> (but these are the people you play for?..<P>On many occasions. I've played go-go spots with the hardest of the hustlers. I've played jiggy spots, young spots, older spots, I've done it all.<P>> if you don't respect the crowd is it any wonder there's a poor relationship? - but that's a another story).<P>Why are you implying that I don't respect the crowd? As a dj in a certain setting, I have to bend my personal tastes to what the people want. I have to pack my crates with the most popular records. But what if they don't respect me? What if I have to get screamed on, threatened, etc? What if I'm enslaved to the same playlist week after week because the slightest deviation will have people cursing me?<P>> Maybe the djs need to step up their game.<P>This is true. I can't stand a shitty dj. Ruins my whole night.<P>> I went to a S & S party a while back where he played current ish, things I never heard before, and mad old school records (hip hop & r&b).<P>DJ's with a certain name recognition can play almost any damn thing they want and no one will question it. It's a luxury that comes with fame. Ever been to a Biz Markie party? That fool will play "Oh Mickie you're so fine". BTW, I've enjoyed S&S when I've seen him. His tapes suck though.<P>> The crowd of "brainwashed masses" was feeling it.<P>Why are you stereotyping them?<P>> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't or doesn't Flex break records @ the Tunnel before they get air play?<P>So I've heard. But this is because he's Flex. He's part of the mega-commercial machine that sets the trends now. If he says it's hot, it's hot. Not because people take a minute to let it sink in and realize it's dope. That may happen sometimes but I wouldn't bet on its prevalence.<P>>Now I grew up in clubs....<P>Like I said, it was different back in the day.<P>if the <BR>>song is hot, people will dance <BR>>unless the dj mixes it in <BR>>wrong or otherwise fucks it up.<P>Luckily I have tight hand skills and crowd skills.<BR> <BR>> I've been <BR>>in many spots where a dj <BR>>has talent on the turntables but <BR>>NO clue as to how to <BR>>work a crowd<P>So have I. It blows.<P>>>When "Put Your Hands Where>My Eyes Can See" came out I played it in the club about 3 weeks before commercial radio got to it. The whole dance floor cleared. Once 'PGC jumped on it, a month later people were falling over themselves to get in my face requesting that song. <P>>I would love <BR>>to hear how you went about <BR>>playing that joint. <P>You sure would. Because my shit is tight.<P>>>Now I only DJ clubs/parties when I <BR>>>know it's a progressive crowd. <P>>Now really, is that something Bambatta would've <BR>>said?<P>Nope. Because people were open to creativity back then. I fiend to do parties where I can actually get excited about digging in my crates a week beforehand, pull out underexposed gems, experiment with mixes, and practice a set...<P>The way Bambaataa used to do.<P>-djstylusmakeitrealfunky4u<BR><a href="http://www.boondocks.net">http://www.boondocks.net<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.strictlyhiphop.com">http://www.strictlyhiphop.com<;/a><BR>"do your part and support the art you like, 2 turntables and a mic" - Unspoken Heard<P>Okayplayer posting frequency follows a function inverse to job satisfaction<BR>

.:|djstylus|:.
www.vibeconductor.com

Sorry if I read things into your words.....<P>Re: P, I think his MP3 stock ownership move has a lot to do with being powerless in terms of distribution. <P>. But this is because <BR>>he's Flex. He's part of the <BR>>mega-commercial machine that sets the trends <BR>>now. If he says it's hot, <BR>>it's hot. Not because people take <BR>>a minute to let it sink <BR>>in and realize it's dope. That <BR>>may happen sometimes but I wouldn't <BR>>bet on its prevalence. <P>Do you really think that we let it sink in before. Sometimes I think "goldenagers" and pre "goldenage" types overglorify & glamorize what was going on backintheday...sounding like somebody's grandfather. <P>>my shit is tight. <P>Lets work out a deal for a tape or cd & let me decide <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><BR>

the longest single post i've ever read (well, skimmed)<P>"when you're sick of trying, how can you expect to succeed? i can't recall my first failure and i'll forget this one too, over time." -Anthony Civoletti

My experience w/ DC DJ's seems to directly reflect what you were saying...they play all the sh*t that is on the radio. That is why I no longer frequent them. But you did mention that their are venues in DC where "our kind" of music, i.e. non-jigga-fied, flows freely. Please my friend...tell me where this salvation lies. I've heard Metro Cafe' has it's moments but that's about it.<P>-Kristy<P>"My people are hard; we live hard, love hard, laugh hard and die hard."

I'm not a big fan of the DC scene. But you do have some nice spots like State of the Union that will put on a good show. They have a wednesday night hip-hop joint that my group performed at back in March. And they do a showcase at Erico's on U St. SAT nights.<P><P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion">http://www.mp3.com/midnightfusion<;/a>

>I don't know about in NY, but in DC these two<BR>>crowds rarely mix with each other.<BR>>I guess the goal is to find a common medium to<BR>>expose The Roots to people from all walks of <BR>>like. The questions is, do they want to be <BR>>exposed.<P>Maybe the goal should be to unite 'these two crowds', not to keep them separate and having The Roots appealing to both. It all starts with the music. I can only speak for myself, but when I make songs I focus on what I want to do, along with other bandmembers. As soon as the result is there, we start looking for the people who dig our sh. If some people don't know our stuff is out, we'll try to reach them in a more direct or better way, but if they don't feel it I ain't gonna change what we do, cos it wouldn't be me anymore.<BR>You can't appeal to everybody, and you shouldn't try to do so either. The only thing you can and have to do is to make sure that the people who genuinely like your sh, can get it and know that it's out.<P>It's all about people and music. Maybe it's cos I live in Europe, but I don't make the division between black and white the way you do. I know I can't compare cos from what I know about the States, people are much more separated than they are over here.<P>Peace,<P>Take care<P>krewcial<BR><a href="http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators">http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators<;/a>

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

All of this has an effect on us, the "youngins" who are into the "underground" (more on that in a sec..) scene but are too young to hit the club scene full blown. Heading off to college, it is depressing to hear the stories from people such as stylus in the DC area. Our rap and concert scene is truly abyssmal, especially on the radio. Our hardest mainstream stations are 50% R&B 20% go-go (gag me, i'm mos def not a go-go head). The best song i've heard played in the past 2 years was Gangstarr's "the militia", and it was a one time deal when GS was the guest of the night. Most of my peers are into DMX, C-Murder etc., and why do I want to jump into the club scene wholeheartedly when all I will be able to hear is that crap....No i am in no way an underground head. I've never heard a song by Clokworx, but my musical tastes vary from the roots, gangstarr, goodie mob over to WC and e-40 on the west. What kind of rap world is this where these respectable artists like the roots are too "hard" or even too "wack" because they dont sport Swizz Beatz? Yeah I want to start clubbing so I can bounce to Ruff Ridaz anthem 5 times. Seems to be the "new" National Anthem of DC. Thanks all you major radio station and MTV deejays for screwing up the hip hop world for the next generation. Yes my generation worships P and DMX and JayZ as hardcore. We should have the sense of you older people to respect consciousness in lyrics and old fashioned ingenuity like the Roots. Gen Y represent and Learn a lesson from the wiser of the "old" folk....<BR>AJ<P>"how can i come up, and purchase me a lincoln??"

but I remember when Hip-Hop artist where clamoring for the national stage, and "why don't we get run on MTV?" and whatnot. Now, hip-hop acts finally get a national stage, and some black people are disturbed by having to be part of the national audience, of which we are a mere 12%. <P>Something to think about...<P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

That has come out of this discussion and is in many ways the root is the segmentation in the Black Community. I keep seeing people talking about "headraps" vs. "perms", not just in this post, but repeatedly brought up all over the boards.<P>It's a question of people's perceptions. I've seen people write shit like "I went and gave a flyer to this sister with a headwrap because I knew she would be down." WHUUTTT? People seem to think that just because you have a headwrap or natural hair you are socially conscious, pro-black, and into underground hip-hop and jazz. And people think that women with perms are entrenched in their communities, black women who don't front on some bourgeouis, high post shit and support people from "around the way."<P>Are women with headwraps "alternative", stuck-up, and strange? Are women with perms ghetto, ignorant, and thuggish? Does having natural hair mean someone is aware of what it is to be truly black? Does having a relaxer mean you aren't aware of the imposition of european culture on blacks? <P>When are we going to stop creating barriers that don't exist? Until we can stop making judgements on people based on superficial things, we hurt ourselves. Until we learn to see beauty in headwraps and perms, underground and commercial hip-hop and stop discriminating each other on some dumb shit, we will continue to weaken ourselves. I mean, if it's beautiful, it is beautiful, all classifications aside. I can prefer whatever I like, but as long as I embrace and respect something other than my preference, we have something positive happening.<P>I mean, shouldn't we be trying harder for the idea/concept of "one love?"<P>Peace ya'll<BR>~Lauren<P><BR>okayplayer.com...it's not just a site; it's a lifestyle<P>I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses/I'm sick of talkin' about blunts/Sick of Versace glasses/Sick of slang/Sick of half-ass awards shows/Sick of name brand clothes/Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks/Cocaine and crack/Which brings sickness to blacks/Sick of swoll' head rappers/With their sicker-than raps/Clappers and gats/Makin' the whole sick world collapse ~Dove, Stakes Is High

I believe people are using the "headwrap" vs. "perm" thing just to facilitate discussion, but it isn't fair to just lump people into categories by appearrance. Nonetheless, we have to take into account the perception issue in Hip-Hop maybe not across the board in society. Fashion and style was one of the big elements in th efoundation of hip-hop; you kinda showed your allegiance to the music and your crew with that. Your name belt, your iron-on letter sweatshirt, your kungfu letter gold chain, stuff liek that made how you looked VERY important in this game. Just by the way that we take on b-boy/girl names when we do our thing.<BR>The clothing defined a good part of the art and whatever phase it was in. They were symbols of the movement: Run-DMC pretty much crushed the Jheri curl phase (although Wessyde brother tried to keep it going), just as dukey ropes were much harder to find in 91.<P>Perhaps we should say hip-hop has evolved beyond using fashion as expression of were you stand. Maybe that's an old school thing, to want to express and identify through what you wear.<P><P><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

but I think the issue I'm bringing up isn't people reppin' their crew. It's people trying to force the "true meaning of blackness" on other people, when there isn't one catch-all definition. <P>I could go on, but I can see that everyone in this discussion is smart enough not to need me to give examples...besides, I'm tired of typing <P>~Lauren<P><BR>okayplayer.com...it's not just a site; it's a lifestyle<P>I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses/I'm sick of talkin' about blunts/Sick of Versace glasses/Sick of slang/Sick of half-ass awards shows/Sick of name brand clothes/Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks/Cocaine and crack/Which brings sickness to blacks/Sick of swoll' head rappers/With their sicker-than raps/Clappers and gats/Makin' the whole sick world collapse ~Dove, Stakes Is High

We don't want to take it to the scope of "blackness" (whatever that is) but within the realm of hip-hop, people use fashion to "rep" their ideology within the music. I think it is a fundamental sensibility that we can't ignore. Though, we must be cautious you can't judge people solely on their appearance.<P>It's a complex issue worth discussing. <P><P><BR><a href="http://midnightfusion.com">http://midnightfusion.com<;/a>

I for one was describing the audience at The Roots shows I have attended and giving a description of who attends the cultural activities such as the poetry slams, underground hip hop (meaning most people in DC don't know about them), etc in Washington. I felt like I had to give attention to details to give a more vivid depiction of the audience. I can understand how one can think I'm generalizing but when I mentioned it I stated I am not generalizing just making an observation. It just so happened that most sisters I see at The Roots shows and at cultural events happened to be rocking head wraps. It is no more of a generalization than saying most brothers at the hip hop shows rock the Tim's. I probably have 5 pair in the closet right now and my interest are definitely varied. In the age of political correctness we are so concerned about generalizing, stereotyping, or offending someone that we often forsake how we really feel about something, or the truth. All of the Roots shows I have seen, the crowd has been majority white. The type of kids you would see traveling with their skateboard. The real big bell bottom pants with the chain in their pockets. A lot of tattos and off brand shoes. Of the sisters who are there, most of them have on head wraps, sandals (Birgenstocks) giving off a Afrocentric vibe which is Peace. That's just what I saw.<P>Peace

My response was more about things I saw around the boards as opposed to your specific comment. <BR>It just reminded me and I vented here.<P>~Lauren<P>okayplayer.com...it's not just a site; it's a lifestyle<P>I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses/I'm sick of talkin' about blunts/Sick of Versace glasses/Sick of slang/Sick of half-ass awards shows/Sick of name brand clothes/Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks/Cocaine and crack/Which brings sickness to blacks/Sick of swoll' head rappers/With their sicker-than raps/Clappers and gats/Makin' the whole sick world collapse ~Dove, Stakes Is High

>I've seen people write shit like <BR>>"I went and gave a flyer <BR>>to this sister with a headwrap <BR>>because I knew she would be <BR>>down." WHUUTTT? People seem <BR>>to think that just because you <BR>>have a headwrap or natural hair <BR>>you are socially conscious, pro-black, and <BR>>into underground hip-hop and jazz. <P>Ay, yo, on the real, when it comes to passing out fliers, you do make value judgments like that. My folks (Amphibians) have been doing events since early 97 and when I was on street promotions mode, I often made snap judgments, often based on dress and "vibe", about who I handed a flier to. If one girl walked by with a crotch high mini-skirt and "down to the back" weave extensions, side by side with a sister with a headwrap and a flowing summer dress and I've got a flier for abstract hip-hop, who do you think I'm handing the flier to????? Yeah, maybe the sista with her man Pookie's name tattooed on her left breast really digs Aceyalone, but if I only have 10 fliers left, I ain't gambling, sorry...<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

but I hope the judgments you make at the spur of the moment aren't the exact same ones you make with more time on your hands.<P>But I understand who "the people" are who frequent these events...But speaking as a girl who doesn't front that style, I felt like people who weren't into that vibe needed to be repped and not forgotten or assumed to be without a social conscience (or a chickenhead...ugh!). My message was more "one love" than "you damn stereotyping people! why can't we all see the person inside" ish...<P>Peace.<BR>~Lauren<P>okayplayer.com...it's not just a site; it's a lifestyle<P>I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses/I'm sick of talkin' about blunts/Sick of Versace glasses/Sick of slang/Sick of half-ass awards shows/Sick of name brand clothes/Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks/Cocaine and crack/Which brings sickness to blacks/Sick of swoll' head rappers/With their sicker-than raps/Clappers and gats/Makin' the whole sick world collapse ~Dove, Stakes Is High

>To be honest, I'm more partial to <BR>>the Snipes argument than the Denzel <BR>>one (intro to TFA), particularly when <BR>>it comes to the lack of <BR>>black support for the Roots<BR>....so maybe <BR>>I'm biased. While I <BR>>think the music is quality and <BR>>I buy your albums,<P>i feel that statement is a contradiction. while i long to artisticly connect with my people (this is not a complaint to my white suppoters. just a plea for others who look like i do to appreciate my art. see the following records: the black album (prince), on the corner (miles davis), i'm your baby tonight (whitney houston), butterfly (mariah carey), voodoo (d'angelo), "vivrant" (q-tip).) all the albums mentioned were projects that were created with the intention that black folk will embrace them with loving arms.<P>i know some of you cats in here are like "not again *sigh* what does color matter? why can't we be color blind?" that statement has always bothered me because obviously i'm a person of "color". so to be colorblind is to really say that i can get accepted "in spite" of my "color" (faults).--y'know like "i will be accepted reguardless of...color." i think that's the root of all problems right there. people are individuals and should be accepted as such. now in my opinion--well? no it's a fact. i've been to enough sessions, and heard enough stories to back my claim that hip-hop is now following the road to "black music hell" (quality for dollars)that other black art forms have followed (gospel, blues,rock, soul, disco, techno, and now hip-hop). i say this because even though you think that jay-z and puff and no limit is catering their sound to black audiences.....surprise! they're not. check this out.<P>axel nihaus (tfa's primary mix engineer) has been puff's right hand engineer for some time (until recently. he's done most of "life after death" "no way out" "keep the faith" and "kima keisha and pam" and puff's "forever") he's also a great friggin engineer. he can attest to the fact that the creative process of "around the way" acts is catered toward the audience that has the mighty dollar. and guess what.....it ain't the black audience. <P>the key formula is to build a strong base (ironic that the label most known for hip-hop crossover planted its flag with (in my opinion) one of the most quintessential (sic) "east coast/real hiphop" (y'all know what i mean) soundin' joints. (flavor in your ear). this shows radio/video/retail that you have a strong base. the real test is the follow up punch. (hence "the next movement" wasn't as strong as "you got me" so we got ko'd in the first round. but fuck it...) the follow up punch for bad boy was "big poppa" which in puff (and big's as well as axel's word's) the last song for Ready To Die. big had to be "forced" to write that song. and puff wanted to compete with death row with the same formula that they rocketed to the sky with: 1) be ghetto as fuck (if whites want intellect, they can buy tori amos). this will satisfy all the vicarious (sic) fantasies that whites have had with black culture since day 1. this means misogyny 2.violent images 3.keeping the sexual myth alive 4. and most importantly (or else the formula will fail) dilute the music as much as possible.......look at history. berry gordy himself said that motown was to sell to whites because that's where the money is so thus most motown acts (that made it) were polished and sophisticated. unlike berry's down south competion: stax. (booker t and the mg's, otis redding, and rufus thomas). so if history shows that the white audience will be "liberal" (another dangerous word) to black art in dosages (george clinton's p-funk was to intellectual so white cats were'nt hip to it in the 70's until hip-hop made it more familiar to the "consumer" ear....and before you write complaint mail he told me this 2 weeks ago in new york!....but here's the twist! our audience is white how do explain that quest? well. i took in account what happend. for starters there's no denying this........whites and blacks are trading places. (not in power.....never that) but in culture and socialy. you ever think that you would think that the 4 most violent crimes commited in the past 3 months would be at the hands of white folk? (atlanta shooting, alabama shooting, colorado shooting, and the woodstock riots)--this is not to say that whites havn't been historicly violent (klan crimes, ayrian nation crimes, germany 1930, slavery)-- it's just the media is slow to point this out (hey i was at woodstock and had nann clue of the riots until someone told me what happend....now if that was the "hard knock life tour"? i would post all day in my room because all rap shows would be outta here!<P>my point is that is it any wonder that limp biskit, korn, britney spears, and n'sync (read the mary j. issue of VIBE if you think i lie) are now on your mtv more than wu-tang (they fucked their own program up), black star (too smart), aalyiah (those past songs were about undeniable radio singles. i know people at atlantic records and "are you that somebody" got resistence out the ass until everyone and their mom was like "i love that shit!" then mtv was like..."ok let's run it!!!!" don't be fooled y'all. unless there is a demand out the ass for product you will not see it on mtv (that "baller! shot caller! song from down south is a prime example it's radio bds' are unbelievable like 30 plays a day and that's just on requests alone!!! so that's a prime "bandwagon moment" for mtv to jump on.)and boys to men? (remember when you couldn't hide from them?...sure we can point the finger at the andre harrel era motown but the fact is.....is the elvis/col. tom paker theory all over again (from 1956 "if i can find a white boy that sings like a negro...i guarantee you that i can make millions of dollars") <P>meanwhile black artist are on axel's ass for "radio mixes" which means a whole lotta keyboard and no drums. i don't know how my craft got sacrificed but somehow before someone must have made the notion that white radio programmers were "psychologicly" (sorry y'all this is hour number 3 and i'm too tired to spell check all this...) effected by "big drums" (i know iknow what about "LED ZEPPLIN" well they only had one top ten hit "whole lotta love" and they were not as criticly acclaimed until Physical Grafitti). and any hip-hop engineer (except bob power who broke the rules on "the low end theory" ) will tell you that a record label will send a mix back to be recalled if the drums are too "agressive". so along with a purposeful diluted sound comes the cultural a-politcal-social shit that hip-hop has been drowning in since day one (my addidas/bally shoes/versace suit/gucci/"do the fila"(mc boob)/i drive caddy you pushin a FORD!!!/ damn playboy? where the hummer at?) material shit has been a key thing with black folk since day one. "get what they got....by any means" <P>so where does that leave us? black men doing a black artform (and to the bone cause i will yell at the heaven's that hey: "you can be faster. have better tech skills....but nann drummer is funkier than me. and if funk ain't as "black as you can get" than i don't know what is!")that supported b----wait lemme stop sayin that. it sounds like it's a diesease. imma call a spade a spade.......we are black musicians that get ignored by black people. all because we won't follow suit to dilute the artform to get accepted. as for your other questions...........<P> I also <BR>>believe the Roots had failed to <BR>>connect with the average black hip <BR>>hop fan (particularly the "roundtheway" type) <BR>>in the way that other artists <BR>>have<P>we would have to sacrifice the music. 20 years ago george clinton said "can you imagine any doobie (brothers) in yo funk?" now i notice that the opposite as i find limp's "nokkie" funkier than jay-z's "jigga my nigga". but again try to fing the "soundscan" report on the net who can break down to the demograpic the real audience of hip-hop (70% white) <P><P><P>>this is sad because it's critical <BR>>that the general black audience has <BR>>exposure to a variety of sounds. <P><BR>black folks are still beautiful innovative craftmen. and i'm sure that we'll keep on reinventing the american music artform. but that's not the case for mofo's around my way who can't afford my record that depend on the radio and tv for their daily dosage.<P><BR>>I'm from NY and I've seen the <BR>>Roots @ Tramps. I'm not <BR>>sure where else the group has <BR>>played but using that spot as <BR>>an example, it is hardly a <BR>>venue that is popular within the <BR>>black community (that I know of).<P><P>where do you know of a venue in the "community" that will have us (don't even say "the apollo")<BR> <BR>> The show was advertised in <BR>>the Voice but I never saw <BR>>any fliers or ads in common <BR>>ghetto spots in BK or uptown.<P>as a touring vet i can say that's because plain and simple "economics" it is a rare day in hell that i will see effective promotion in the communtiy (as in promote and they will come)--im also sure it's the fear of the "thug" element that scares promoters. but at this rate in a few years? with white mofo's bussin shots on the regular? the roots will be at the local y in brooklyn sooner than you think.<P><BR> <BR>> The same can't be said <BR>>for Bad boy artists, Fat <BR>>Joe & his clique, or even <BR>>Juvenile when he came to the <BR>>BX to perform.<P>well. you have to go into detail with this one. i know jue was at the tunnel. but----hey hang on!!! we did the bronx too!! what am i sayin?<P><BR> After being surrounded <BR>>by a sea of white faces <BR>>and continuously bumped into by <BR>>some retro hip hop kid and <BR>>his nonrhythm having self, I'm hard <BR>>pressed to see another show @ <BR>>that venue. <P><BR>this might be the root of your problem. you sound like denzel now.....hmmmmm<P><BR>I'm way too old <BR>>for & not a fan of <BR>>the Tunnel but atleast there a <BR>>sistah can find a black dance <BR>>partner. <P>you gots to be my age because there are no more "dances" no more (unless you count bouncing)<P><P>There's a social aspect/black celebration <BR>>to hip hop shows (and black <BR>>events in general) that is important.<P><BR>true, but why have blacks abandond hip-hop?<P> <BR>> There are a lot of <BR>>blacks that I know who are <BR>>uncomfortable or simply don't want to <BR>>deal with white folks on a <BR>>social level. Maybe that's wrong, but <BR>>I notice that the vibe of <BR>>a function changes as the number <BR>>of blacks decrease. <BR>>Now I don't necessarily expect the Roots <BR>>to tour with JayZ (for example), <BR>>nor do I know if that's <BR>>possible, but why not? I <BR>>remember, a long time ago, seeing <BR>>PE, Naughty By Nature, Geto Boys, <BR>>LL (I think) and a bunch <BR>>of other acts @ a concert <BR>>@ the Garden. Those are <BR>>very different groups with very different <BR>>messages but they all rocked an <BR>>audience full of people with faces <BR>>that looked like theirs.<P>that was yeeeeeeeeeearrrrrrrs ago. you can do that same show and guess who won't be there?<P> <BR>>I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on <BR>>this. <BR>>Thanks & for the record, I'm over <BR>>25 and came up in this. <BR>><P><BR>"god made me write this"

check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

I really appreciate it.<P>Maybe I am contradicting myself...sometimes I'm prone to that...I'll think about it.<P>i say this because even though you think that <BR>>jay-z and puff and no limit is catering their sound to black audiences.....surprise! they're not....." <P>In regards to the formula, are you saying that these records would not be popular with black folk irregardless (excuse my grammar)? I like to think I have diverse tastes <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> and I like Jigga My Nigga AND the Next Movement. Maybe I should be asking if there's any legitimacy & inherent artistry some formulaic (?) pop music? I hope that question makes sense.<P>i don't know how my craft got sacrificed but somehow before someone must have made the notion that white radio programmers were "psychologicly" ..... effected by "big drums" <P>lololololol...I agree <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> <BR> <BR>>we are black musicians that get ignored by black >people. all because we won't follow suit to >dilute the artform to get accepted. <P>This is where I disagree. Please don't ban me from the board <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/sad.gif"> but I don't think its just that. I truly believe there is a perception & relating problem btwn The Roots and many black consumers. <BR>><BR>>where do you know of a venue in the "community" that will have us (don't even say "the apollo")<P>So you're saying if I come up with a venue, you'll play it <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"> <BR>> <BR>>> The show was advertised in <BR>>>the Voice but I never saw <BR>>>any fliers or ads in common <BR>>>ghetto spots in BK or uptown.<P>>as a touring vet i can say that's because plain and simple "economics" it is a rare day in <BR>>hell that i will see effective promotion in the communtiy (as in promote and they will come)--im also sure it's the fear of the "thug" element that scares promoters.<P>Okay..that makes sense to me.<P>>you gots to be my age because <BR>>there are no more "dances" no <BR>>more (unless you count bouncing) <P>I count anything that makes people sweaty and has rhythm to it. People dance together all the time. When I went to see y'all @ tramps the last time, my girls friends and some of the few brothas that were there (and not with white/asian girls) hooked up on a friendly "let's dance" level only to get bumped by the uncoordinated <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/sad.gif">.<BR>><BR>>There's a social aspect/black celebration <BR>>>to hip hop shows (and black events in general) that is important. <BR>> true, but why have blacks abandond <BR>>hip-hop? <P>I don't think they have, they're just waiting for someone to hit them in the head with something that's dynamic, entertaining, creative, funky, etc. Talking to people (atleast around my way) everybody is complaining about wanting something different even as they bounce. <BR>> <P>>that (the concert) was yeeeeeeeeeearrrrrrrs ago. you can do >that same show and guess who won't be there? <P>Of course "I" wouldn't be there now...I mean I was what around 20 then. I've seen all of those guys enough to not want to see them again for a while...I'll leave them for the retro hip hoppers. Maybe that's a part of "my/our" problem....not supporting acts later. But I would bet that a group of 16 - 22 year old black kids would luv to see JayZ, the Roots, Mystikal, Artifacts, Common, Lauren, Slick Rick and thrown in a R&B act on the same bill (just an example)...my little sister (17) was just saying some ish like that the other day and she's a Hot97 fan. Granted, I don't know how realistic that idea is.<P>Thanks again,<P>Peace<P><BR>

So with all this said, where do us Asains stand? I mean, most of those that i hang with that live and breath hip-hop culture, are not black, and very few white, in fact its the asian cats(Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japs etc.) The more that this country polarizes the problems between blacks and whites, we the real minority gets shafted each and everytime. I mean we will give our all to this culture and get absolutely no recognition. That would have all other audiences yelling and screaming foul! This is not just a hip-hop thing, its more of a reflection on society, we asians work our asses of, take shit from the majority, yet we never really get the props we deserve. Everything from analyzing standardized tests to hip-hop. I mean from the test stand point, well we asians are "different" cause the other races/cultures cant score as well as we can, so we dont matter...in hip-hop, well they must not represent, cause we are not in the majority, so we dont matter(once again)<P>So where do we fit in this society, we aid in every facet, yet get no recognition. Now from a hip-hop perspective, black kids in the Detroit/Ann Arbor are like "whats a turntablist", "man I dont freestyle, i do paid style"(oohhh if I hear one more mickey fickey say this......the ass whopping will commence), and that "ja rule and dmx are "emcess" makes me wonder where these kids are coming from. Then the white kids that will go out and pay $15 for a no limit record, and then go out and buy a juvinile record, not knowing the difference between the two, its more about rolling with a trend. But then of course there are the white/black kids that know whats goin on, so they are given props, but what about us!??!?!??! Its about time, you think even cats on this site, that claim they're "backpackers" were down from 87 and listening to PE...I highly doubt it, so lets start to give credit, where credit is due.<P>Peace<BR>RamXL<BR>(b-boy advocate)

"shit, been the same since '86 and kane"

for that great representation for the many of us Asian hip-hip fans out there...<BR>~Peace~<BR>AMber

LOL

Yeah, Yeah, I'm addicted!!!<P>?uest thx for talking about how all these big acts are really making music with white folks in mind becuase of the financial implications! Addiionally, radio and MTV play really affects how music is bought, how record companies sign and promote acts, how singles are released, etc. It's not to say that average folks are dumb, but as they say in Economics, there exists substantial costs associated with seeking out information. The harder you have to work or the further you have to go for information it becomes more costly. Therefore, the average person takes what is easily provided and most cost efficient.<P>My last post was gonna include the whole Motown/Stax thing but I ran out of time. Historcally, I think Mtown vs. Stax is the embodiment of the present day struggle in hip-hop. I hope we can start a thread and talk about Motown/Stax soon. And those of you who are<BR>not in the know, many people to this day feel that Stax was sabotaged by the record industry, thus leading to their demise, because of the move they were making to change the game. <BR>Damn, I gotta go play some Black Jack!!!!!<P>"Just because I'm cool with you, dont mean I gotta help you if your music sucks" - Nazdak<P>"It's a cold world, dress proper!" - Prodigy (Mobb Deep)<P>"I'm passionate, not evil!" - Stress (aka Angieee)<P>To be young, gifted and black, Oh what a lovely precious dream<BR>To be young, gifted and black, Open your heart to what I mean<BR>In the whole world you know. There are billion boys and girls<BR>Who are young, gifted and black, And that's a fact! - N.Simone/W. Irvine

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

what you said is true,but I think too often in your little "speech" there you clumped all whites into like one state of mind.like they all like this "watered down" more white friendly music.I know alot of white people(my best friend for example)who are really into the REAL DEAL shit.so saying that all whites like it with (1)sex (2)violence(3)ghetto and (4)diluted just ain't true.everyone has there own opinionas to what they like and can't all be grouped in one category.I mean I know lots of whites who like the real shit and on the flipside,blacks who like the diluted,violent,sex filled stuff.

>what you said is true,but I think <BR>>too often in your little "speech"<P>hey was you tryin' to be smart sporty?<P> <BR>>there you clumped all whites into <BR>>like one state of mind.like they <BR>>all like this "watered down" more <BR>>white friendly music.I know alot of <BR>>white people(my best friend for example)who <BR>>are really into the REAL DEAL <BR>>shit.<BR>firstly if i thought that then i'd be the biggest fool of all. i know--matter of fact i think 60% of our fans know "the real deal" wit hip-hop. but believe you me. our "real dealers" are like 29% of the population. but the "watered down stuff" is not the main gripe. you must think i think all whites are in the young mc fan club. i know there's a whole bunch of mug's down with dmx and jigga and an occasional gangstarr. but in my situations in touring america is giving focus groups. and the result is 100 proof everytime. whoever the club or "hardcore favorite" is at the time gets love. sometimes it's deserving people. (redman, jigga, etc.) and even then it's for the wrong reasons. i'll throw "friend or foe" or "bring it on" on the box and it's like "could you put "can i get a.." or a "i know what girls like..." and they still miss the point. i know a young lady who thinks that tribes "electric relaxation" is the worst. and that "oh my god" is that only song worthy of praise. mind you this is blacks and whites and all in between. this is about class more than race. i mean, let's call a spade a spade the finnacial situation for whites is better for blacks as time rolls on (just as it's getting worse for blacks by the year.) in other words for a white guy to spend $50 in a day 6 out of 10 could be no sweat. on the other hand there are folks (black) that i know who have to stretch 50 bucks for a 2 week period. so who do you think record execs have in mind when they are trying to move units?<P><BR>so saying that all whites like <BR>>it with (1)sex (2)violence(3)ghetto and (4)diluted <BR>>just ain't true.<BR>you didn't see me say that all whites like that. but these are the easiest images to sell to white people. again there's folks i know who are like "if i want intellect i'll buy a sting record"<P><BR>I know lots of <BR>>whites who like the real shit <BR>>and on the flipside,blacks who like <BR>>the diluted,violent,sex filled stuff. <BR>great!!! so tell em to buy all 6 of my records. and then tell 10 of their friends to do the same. countinue circle until i don't have to post messages like this anymore.<P>"god made me funky"

check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

Okay, so i've gotten at least 10 people to buy your album, where's my share??!!....ahhhh, <BR>but really, why do artist feel the need to produce wack "watered down" shit (as you phase it).... to make the $$$BiG BuCk$$$$ ?? What ever happened to people making enough to live comfortably..really though...i dunno, are you struggling to get by ?uest...OR...........................do these artists really think their style of hip-hop is good? I mean, do they go to bed at night saying, "damn that track i laid down is so funky fresh...i can buy my mom a house too!!!!"<BR>Clue me in pahleeze....<P><BR>peace..<BR>Kyle<P>

>Okay, so i've gotten at least 10 <BR>>people to buy your album, where's <BR>>my share<P>well, your share is that the roots will fill your life with the perfect soundtrack. you see....if you buy...then the label let's us record. but if you don't show the numbers....can someone say diamond d?.....<P><P><BR>What ever happened <BR>>to people making enough to live <BR>>comfortably.<P>no one lives comfortably round here. let's see you come home to some nigga who wants what you got wearing your t-shirt.<P><BR>.really though...i dunno, are you struggling <BR>>to get by ?uest.<P>i don't put that much value behind material shit. but now i think it's important to get a crib (for my saftey) because of the onslaught of unsolicited bell rings at my door (my crib is featured in the opening scene of the 6th sense. they shot right next door to me. but yeah. now i know why niggas leave the hood after a while. andre said it best on "return of the gangsta" about how one can be about peace. but then some nigga who wants what you got can try to take yours with a "piece".<P>...........................do these artists <BR>>really think their style of hip-hop <BR>>is good? I mean, do they <BR>>go to bed at night saying, <BR>>"damn that track i laid down <BR>>is so funky fresh...i can buy <BR>>my mom a house too!!!!" <P>hell yeah they be thinkin that shit is hot to death. i've been at many a session in which some mofo's think man this is gonna be a hit!!!!<P>"god made me funky"

check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

<BR>>well, your share is that the roots <BR>>will fill your life with the <BR>>perfect soundtrack. you see....if you buy...then <BR>>the label let's us record. but <BR>>if you don't show the numbers....can <BR>>someone say diamond d?..... <P>That's all I wanted to hear baby?!... but really...if you keep making the music, i promise to share it with whomever i can<img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><P>><BR>>What ever happened <BR>>>to people making enough to live <BR>>>comfortably.<P>>no one lives comfortably round here. let's <BR>>see you come home to some <BR>>nigga who wants what you got <BR>>wearing your t-shirt. <P><BR>I don't know, that's not cool but would you rather have apartments in the Hamptons, be mobbed by thousands, not being able to enjoy places<BR>you used to hang out in on the daily, and needing mad security? just feelin' you out right now<P>I never said y'all were living comfortably, i more or less<BR>meant all the artist that sacarfice money for not "watering down" their music, are still living better than most..(depending on what you want in life of course).set me straight if this isn't tru!?!?!?!?<P>i would personally rather be the .270 hitter, making GOOD money, then be the .400 home run king that can't go out without mad help, mark mcquire, no one would *really* know me...(how many baseball players are there anyhow?!?)...not many would know me..when i decided i had enough to be comfortable...i would leave quitely..no chaos...(aka..Barry Sanders)..these are just <BR>my views on life...this is how I see it, <P>nope, i'd rather have the guy wearin' m,y shirt wanting something, then being sean combs..... <P>>.really though...i dunno, are you struggling <BR>>>to get by ?uest.<P>>i don't put that much value behind <BR>>material shit. <P>very admirable...<P>but now i think <BR>>it's important to get a crib <BR>>(for my saftey) because of the <BR>>onslaught of unsolicited bell rings at <BR>>my door <P>tru dat.<P>but yeah. now <BR>>i know why niggas leave the <BR>>hood after a while. andre said <BR>>it best on "return of the <BR>>gangsta" <P>(one of my personal favorites)<P>about how one can be <BR>>about peace. but then some nigga <BR>>who wants what you got can <BR>>try to take yours with a <BR>>"piece". <P>thanks for the love ?uest...keep on bein' funky and tear the roof off in Detroit!!!<P>peace,<BR>kyle "doesn't want to be the top dawg" kentala

i mean, let's call a spade a spade the finnacial situation for whites is better for blacks as time rolls on (just as it's getting worse for blacks by the year.)<P>actually, the economic situation for black folks GETS BETTER every year. We are now at our best financial position in American history (obviously when we had empires in Mali, etc, we were doing better, but hey...). <P>> in other words for a white guy to spend $50 in >a day 6 out of 10 could be no sweat. on the >other hand there are folks (black) that i know >who have to stretch 50 bucks for a 2 week >period. so who do you think record execs have in >mind when they are trying to move units?<P>as the black middle class continues to expand, the generalization that all black people are financially struggling becomes less and less applicable. by the way, i'm black. and i'm middle class.<P>><BR>>so saying that all whites like <BR>>>it with (1)sex (2)violence(3)ghetto and (4)diluted <BR>>>just ain't true.<BR>>you didn't see me say that all whites like that. but these are the easiest images to sell to white people. again there's folks i know who are like "if i want intellect i'll buy a sting record"<P>hah. on the class level again, I know many middle class blacks who love listening to gangsta rap, but show disdain for our more abstract brethren. I graduated from Howard U, home of the wanna be thug and Puffy's "alma mater" (he never graduated). Oh yeah, before any Howard alums get all twisted up, yes there are plenty of conscious people at HU...there are also many people who want to live out a Mobb Deep video...while working on their pharmacy degree...what the???<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

So did I...what year.<P>I'm another fake alum though <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif"> <P>

So did I....what year?<P>I'm one of those fake alums though <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/wink.gif">

Off topic and kinda not at the same time. I have to respond to contribute to the race element of the argument and clear up an old one I may have foolishly started. I used to see racial equality as being color blind. However, I think that's some right winger shit now. Does this mean that I judge people by race? No. It means instead of disregarding race I appreciate it now. I must say I don't know how much I can appreciate my own (LOL/Jokin kinda. I'm white in case you haven't figured that out). However I still think that logicaly speaking we are human beings first off, and then it's race. So, we all do have a common bond, but the differences that makes us beautiful. I can't tell you how much I felt like an ass after "calling you out" for an apology last week once I realized I read the post wrong. However, I still feel a lot of these cats read me wrong as much as I read your shit wrong. But that's some old shit. As far as whites bein at your shows and blacks abondoning it? I have no clue why that is. Maybe because in the white alternative community there's been a lack of substance since like, 98' with few exceptions (RIP to Rage Against The Machine). So, in turn, the average white listener that's turned on by new music turns to underground hip hop and R&B for a solution. Because, it seems to me that as far as artistic innovation goes in todays music, that's where you'll find the best in any genre currently. I don't know. Just a thought on the white part. But as far as the blacks abandonment goes I really do not know. Peace, Asana PS: You mentioned your drumming. Keep it funky. So many drummers obsessed with the big pointless fills. You've made keepin it simple a complex artform. That's some shit I always throw in my drummers face now when he goes off on a busy tangent! LOL.

"It's ten o'clock do you know where ya moms at?" --MC Gusto CB4

"I'd fuck sista. I'd fuck ya cat. I'd fuck ya moms but the bitch is too fat." --MC Gusto CB4

as long as the roots play at safe venues, with great musicains, and play for affordable prices then whats wrong with that. if the crowd is of mixed variety big f'n deal as long as they love hip-hop and keep rocking on to the max, then who cares?<P>budget, promoting affects the nature of this buisness and plays a factor as too whos at the crowds, if black radio stations would care to play the roots 50 times instead of masta pee then you might see bigger venues and diversifyed crowds. the roots went 800,000 with all types of people buying it, i think they made a statement, do you wnat more!?

this developed from regular conversational topic to some all out deep ish. archive this so that i can come back to it if the topic crosses my mind again.

this should be in the archeives, nowadays, there aint to much thought provoking discussions goin on....<P>Peace<BR>RamXL<BR>(b-boy advocate)

"shit, been the same since '86 and kane"

And by their own admittance, that's not happening.<P>

Why do you feel that the general black population MUST listen to the roots...(we know they SHOULD be) but..their music is there..if from the few singles or videos that got play...if they couldn't grasp the fact that this band is what music IS about, then what more can you do?? they opened for lauryn, had ms. badu with them, these ladies sell records,... i can't explain why more people don't pick up each and every roots album..it's a mystery.. but i'll be damned if i lose sleep at night because this color, or that color isn't buying and getting into their music?!<BR>Do you feel me on this one? <P>In a perfect world, they would play roots all day,everyone would see them, they would rule the universe, and we could all sleep with big ass grins on our faces, but hey, not everything can be perfect<img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><P>peace..<BR>Kyle<BR>

Don't you? <P>Its our responsibility to look out for one another, I know haven't done my share and could be doing more. For the most part we are all slippin @ our job, we don't look out for each other. The fuck em' attitude is not what we're supposed to be about, that attitude is exactly what motivates some of the most negative hip hop music..its anti community. Blacks don't control the media but we do have some control over ourselves. If we it's reasonable to EXPECT artists to present positive/intelligent/and or "conscious" work (that doesn't focus only on so-called black vices) - why can't we expect those same artists to make it a priority to deliver those msgs to the ones that need it most?<P><BR>

Forget the fact that 'black' audiences don't seem to be feeling the Roots like they would want them too. Let's look at demographics.<P>Remember why Puff/Jay-Z/No Limit/your favorite commercial artist to bash are all 'catering' to 'white' audiences. In North America, 'white' audiences are still the vast majority. If 'non-whites' were in the majority, then more music would probably be 'catered' towards them and then the situation might be reversed. Although right now it's all hypotheticals.<P> The above, 'commercial,' artists are looking for financial gain and success, it's the rule of supply and demand. You go towards the majority audience if you want the greatest financial gain.<P>When overseas acts 'crossover' what do they do, the try to grab the American audience, which could mean turning thier backs on their home country or language. Look at Celine Dion (a French-Canadian). She used to be only a French singer, it wasn't until she tapped into the English audience that she started going multi-platinum in North America. Sure she may have gone platinum in Quebec alone (100,000 units for plat status in Canada), but it wasn't until she started singing in English that she was going multi-platinum in North America (1,000,000 plus units.<P>There may always be a greater percentage of 'whites' showing up at Roots, even all hip-hop, shows than 'blacks' just because we are in the majority of the population. But, I bet that the ratio of 'black' Roots fans to the 'black' population is higher than that of 'white' Roots fans to the 'white' population.<P>Peace<BR>Sean<P>I hope I made that arguement somewhat clear.<P>"If every action has an oppposite reaction<BR>I want to see the opposite of wack MCs rapping"<BR> -- D-Shade (Shades of Culture)

I definitely see your point on this. If I May I'd like to throw my $0.02 in the bucket. Being a musician, and a long-time member of the Hip Hop Nation, I can fully understand why the Roots play where they play. Like Wesley said, "If you play the shit that they like, the people will come, simple as that!" The Hip Hop nation as a whole has had a problem looking 3 inches past thier own nose! If it's not right in our face, we can't see it. If it's not the misery, gun toting, drug run ghetto some of us have seen our whole lives, we don't know what the fuck to do with it! That's why artists like Silkk The Shocker & C-Murder go triple platinum! As a musician, I can say The Roots have talent that I see as unsurpassed in Hip Hop!! They not only have great musical skills, but what they say is also genuine hip hop representation. It's just not right in your face w/ a gun & a forty. Unfortunately, those who can see the depth & talent of the Roots are those who have access to better musical education, which a large number of those folks are the upper middle class (pre dominately white) It's quite a paradox, you see. The people who understand what the Roots are saying and appreciate thier talent are usually the ones who have never seen or experinced the things the speak of!!! Ironic, isn't it?!?!?!?! The bottom line is the Roots are arguably the best group in hip-hop to date. They are unfortunately overlooked by the hip-hop nation at times because they don't have that 'in your face, Dom P, 9mm' approach. If you were to look at what we hold as values in the hip-hop and the honor code we try to adhere to, the Roots would be the president & supreme ruler of the hip hop nation. As to qoute KRS-1, 'kings just rule and most are never understood', well I think the Roots would not only qualify as rulers, but they can teach us something as well. The Roots keep it RIGHT (De La)not REAL, RIGHT!!! this is something we should ALL be doing!! You see that on a daily basis here at okayplayer! That quote in the intro of TFA in a prime exaple of the thinking out in the lands. "rely on black people to eat......" That is so true for the Roots, but what I can't understand is that they PLAY the shit we like!!! Really when you sum it all up, the Roots are a victim of short-sightedness and small thinking in the pursuit to 'keep it REAL'.<P>We will learn someday I hope!!!!<P>In the meantime, I'm off to book a 350 mile trip to try to see the Roots in San Diego cuz NO ONE wants to come to Arizona (I don't really blame them!!)<P>Peace y'all keep it RIGHT!!!<P>Xpoman