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Ampersand
Member since Sep 25th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:40 AM

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"Washington Post: The Price of Acting White"


  

          

washingtonpost.com
The Price of Acting White

By Richard Morin
Post
Sunday, June 5, 2005; B05

" Children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white."

-- Barack Obama, keynote speech, 2004 Democratic National Convention

It may be even worse than Obama imagined: It's not just black children who face ridicule and ostracism by their peers if they do well in school. The stigmatizing effects of "acting white" appear to be felt even more by Hispanics who get top grades.

At least that's the claim of Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. and graduate student Paul Torelli, who have mined an unusually detailed data set on teenage students to study the relationship between performance and popularity in public and private schools.

As commonly understood, acting white is a pejorative term used to describe black students who engage in behaviors viewed as characteristic of whites, such as making good grades, reading books or having an interest in the fine arts.

The phenomenon is one reason some social thinkers give to help explain at least a portion of the persistent black-white achievement gap in school and in later life. Popularity-conscious young blacks, afraid of being seen as acting white, steer clear of behaviors that could pay dividends in the future, including doing well in school, Fryer said. At the same time, the desire to be popular pushes many whites to excel in the classroom, enhancing their future prospects.

Certainly that's what the data suggest is happening, Fryer said. Among white teens, Fryer and Torelli found that better grades equaled greater popularity, with straight-A students having far more same-race friends than those who were B students, who in turn had more friends than C or D students. But among blacks and especially Hispanics who attend public schools with a mix of racial and ethnic groups, that pattern was reversed: The best and brightest academically were significantly less popular than classmates of their race or ethnic group with lower grade point averages.

"For blacks, higher achievement is associated with modestly higher popularity until a grade point average of 3.5 , then the slope turns negative," Fryer and Torelli wrote in a new working paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research. A black student who's gotten all A's has, on average, 1.5 fewer same-race friends than a straight-A white student. Among Hispanics, there is little change in popularity until a student's average rises above a C+, at which point it plummets. A Hispanic student with all A's is the least popular of all Hispanic students, and has three fewer friends than a typical white student with a 4.0 grade point average.

Fryer and Torelli based their conclusions on a federally funded survey of 90,118 junior high and high school students in 175 schools in 80 communities nationwide during the 1994-95 school year. The resulting data set contained a wealth of information on each student, including the number of friends they had and who those friends were. To prevent an inflated tally, the researchers counted students as friends only if each listed the other as a friend.

The researchers used this data to construct a social status index based on the number of friends of the same race that a student had in the school, adjusted for the popularity of each friend. Thus, someone who had lots of unpopular pals was rated lower than someone whose shorter list of friends might include such typically sociable types as cheerleaders or the student body president.

Digging deeper, they found that their overall results did not change significantly when they examined all of a student's friends, regardless of race. High-achieving Hispanics and blacks also had fewer friends, even when there was a relative abundance of same-race friends with similar GPAs in their classes.

They also found that more blacks "acted white" in schools where less than 20 percent of the students were African American, while hardly any did in predominantly black schools or in private schools. "These findings suggest the achievement gap is not about cultural dysfunctionality," Fryer said, and that contrary to conventional wisdom, the phenomenon may be more prevalent among blacks living in the more affluent suburbs than among those living in the inner city. (There were no majority-Hispanic schools in the study.)

Why is "acting white" absent in mostly black schools?

That's easy, said Fryer, who is African American. He recalled his own experience growing up and attending predominantly black schools in Daytona Beach, Fla., and Dallas. "We didn't act white -- we didn't know what that was," he said, stressing that he prefers data to anecdote. "There were no white kids around."
Two Sociologists Enter a Bar. . . .

Who says the social sciences aren't good for a laugh?

Certainly not your Unconventional Wiz, who has dined out for more than a decade on delicious bits of research that are smart and funny.

Now comes "The Sociologist's Book of Cartoons," published by the American Sociological Association and on sale as part of its centennial celebration. It features 86 cartoons, most of which were published in the New Yorker magazine, including some as long ago as the 1920s and '30s.

The 'toons poke playful fun at social scientists and their preoccupations. One panel evoked sociologists' professional fixation with dating and mating. It featured a woman outside her door, saying to her date: "I had a nice time, Steve. Would you like to come in, settle down and raise a family?"

Another cartoon makes a distinction between sociologists, psychologists and political scientists and those who do so-called "hard" science, such as physicists, chemists and the like. "I'm a social scientist, Michael," a father tells his young son. "That means I can't explain electricity or anything like that, but if you ever want to know about people, I'm your man."

A few others have little or nothing to do with the social sciences . . . but they're funny, so who cares?

The book opens with a wry introduction by ASA President Troy Duster of New York University. He notes that the ASA has always had a sense of humor. In fact, until 1959 it was known as the American Sociological Society, or ASS.

"While there were many good, even compelling reasons for the name change, was there not some self-humor lost?" Duster lamented.
Anonymous Approval

Contrary to perceptions in some quarters that the news media's credibility is sinking like a stone, most Americans reject the claim that journalists use anonymous sources too often, and a clear majority trusts the media to report the news accurately and fairly, according to a recent Washington Post-ABC News poll.

Nearly two in three said reporters use unnamed sources in news stories either the right amount of time or not often enough, while a third faulted journalists for using anonymous sources too frequently. Nearly six in 10 -- 58 percent -- also said they trusted the news media to "fully, accurately, and fairly" report the news, compared with 44 percent in a similar question Gallup asked in a poll conducted last September during the controversy that followed a "60 Minutes" report by then CBS anchorman Dan Rather about President Bush's National Guard service.

A total of 1,003 randomly selected adults were interviewed last month for the Post-ABC survey.

morinr@washpost.com
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
---
http://melanism.com

"i'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just gonna ask where they're going and hook up with them later"
Mitch Hedberg (R.I.P)

R U My Friend:
http://www.myspace.com/722546

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
this was always my experience
Jun 06th 2005
1
I'm trying to remember when i switched from a mostly white to mostly bla...
Jun 06th 2005
4
I went to school in the hood and
Jun 06th 2005
9
      What about black kids in white schools?
Jun 06th 2005
15
      Most black kids don't go to white schools tho.
Jun 06th 2005
24
      same here...I got more respect that anything
Jun 06th 2005
16
      I must of went to that extra dumb school
Jun 06th 2005
21
BASICALLY
Jun 06th 2005
6
      from my experience growing up
Jun 06th 2005
7
      same here
Jun 06th 2005
13
      Realistically, popularity matters to a lot of kids...
Jun 06th 2005
10
           i was a teenager, too.
Jun 06th 2005
14
                Yours is a special case
Jun 06th 2005
17
                but if it's much less of an issue in poor schools...
Jun 06th 2005
20
                ok...
Jun 06th 2005
19
I didn't read all that so after the first quote I was like "huh"
Jun 06th 2005
2
Ctrl+P....I'll be back with my thoughts on this article
Jun 06th 2005
3
black kids see nerds the same way white kids do.
Jun 06th 2005
5
oh really? So when a white kids sees a nerd he's says he acting
Jun 06th 2005
8
put the crack down.
Jun 06th 2005
11
      sometimes I have to wonder about lingo...
Jun 06th 2005
27
           that was the clearest case of turning someones words around
Jun 06th 2005
30
           Not twisting your words at all.
Jun 06th 2005
34
                i knew exactly what you said
Jun 06th 2005
36
                     ok, so no need to act brand new.
Jun 06th 2005
38
                          but "put the crackdown" was so funny at the moment.
Jun 06th 2005
39
           RE: sometimes I have to wonder about lingo...
Jun 06th 2005
35
                says people who attempt to overstand rather than just get it
Jun 06th 2005
61
The smarted kids aren't always the nerdiest tho
Jun 06th 2005
12
true indeed
Jun 06th 2005
23
i don't know
Jun 06th 2005
29
anyone who sees anyone as a "nerd" has the same mentality
Jun 06th 2005
31
      RE: anyone who sees anyone as a "nerd" has the same mentality
Jun 06th 2005
42
Basically
Jun 06th 2005
47
Many kids due to outside influences as well as media
Jun 06th 2005
18
bingo: black + intelligent = successful is not reinforced in either
Jun 06th 2005
56
"the cult of anti-intellectualism"
Jun 06th 2005
22
the cult of anti-intellectualism, to be frank, is a white thing.
Jun 06th 2005
26
      while i agree with your criticism, i wouldn't completely dismiss...
Jun 06th 2005
43
      His general ideas hold true regardless of race
Jun 06th 2005
51
      co-sign
Jun 06th 2005
64
My experiences corroborate this article.
Jun 06th 2005
25
the bad kids are always the most popular tho...James dean style
Jun 06th 2005
28
when i went to hood schools, i never heard 'acting white'
Jun 06th 2005
32
black kids trying to hold on to their "blackness" in a white
Jun 06th 2005
33
      or the idea of what blackness is?
Jun 06th 2005
37
      my brain hurts just thinking about it
Jun 06th 2005
40
      yes, absolutely....i got props for being smart
Jun 06th 2005
41
           lol...funny story.
Jun 06th 2005
50
                word
Jun 06th 2005
55
      maybe....my experience is that when we are in
Jun 06th 2005
44
           that's my experience too.
Jun 06th 2005
46
           true
Jun 06th 2005
57
well i went to a suburban high school and my experience mirrors
Jun 06th 2005
45
In junior high...
Jun 06th 2005
48
Did we really need Harvard to prove what we already knew?
Jun 06th 2005
49
sociologists, steering you wrong since 1900
Jun 06th 2005
52
thanx for htat...
Jun 06th 2005
54
um, this study was done by economists
Jun 06th 2005
63
Glad i went to a hs where smarts=popularity
Jun 06th 2005
53
did they take into account inner city schools w/horrible curriculums?
Jun 06th 2005
58
this analysis conveniently ignores teacher impact on 'popularity' and pe...
Jun 06th 2005
59
i'm so fuckin tired of economists encroaching on our subject matter
Jun 06th 2005
60
oh and btw: there has been NO quantitative support for the acting white...
Jun 06th 2005
62
why did this post die? gotdammit
Jun 06th 2005
65

lionhawk
Member since Apr 21st 2003
9912 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:44 AM

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1. "this was always my experience"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-06-05 09:44 AM by lionhawk

  

          

>
>Why is "acting white" absent in mostly black schools?
>
>That's easy, said Fryer, who is African American. He recalled
>his own experience growing up and attending predominantly
>black schools in Daytona Beach, Fla., and Dallas. "We didn't
>act white -- we didn't know what that was," he said, stressing
>that he prefers data to anecdote. "There were no white kids
>around."


Nobody ever told me I was acting white b/c I got good grades. I was just "smart."

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:45 AM

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4. "I'm trying to remember when i switched from a mostly white to mostly bla..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

school...I wanna say that I didn't get that either but being smart wasn't too good either.

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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lionhawk
Member since Apr 21st 2003
9912 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:52 AM

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9. "I went to school in the hood and"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

niggas never made fun of me for being getting good grades or being smart.

As long as you a cool dude, niggas respect you for being smart.

But like the article said, this doesn't really exist in predominately Black schools.

****
"I'm a fly young man, check my wingspan."

****
R.I.P. Sean Taylor

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
22276 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:57 AM

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15. "What about black kids in white schools?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


I went to a predominantly white school and I did fairly well. I had a lot of black friends from other high schools. There were black kids that automaticlly assumed that I "acted white" when I told them what school I went to. Some of the girls wouldn't talk to me for the same reason.

At the same time, there were also black kidss that gave me props and supported me when I did well.

I think you'll get a little bit of everything from everybody. But that accusation of "acting white" is real and powerful.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:05 AM

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24. "Most black kids don't go to white schools tho."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

The overwhelming majority don't. So why is a minority issue painted as the prevalent idea that needs to be addressed in terms of Black issues in secondary education? Is it because of class issues?

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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tomjohn29
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:57 AM

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16. "same here...I got more respect that anything"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
70279 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:04 AM

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21. "I must of went to that extra dumb school"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

cause it was the "cool" thing to be dumb...

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:47 AM

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6. "BASICALLY"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>Nobody ever told me I was acting white b/c I got good grades.
>I was just "smart."

And the study's skewed because, if you have "lots" of "unpopular" friends, then you're not "popular." But if you have a solid & supportive social network, how salient is "popularity"?

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:49 AM

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7. "from my experience growing up"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


it was no "popularity" unless you created that in your mind (hating)
everybody had they lil' group of friends

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:54 AM

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13. "same here"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

if you had your crew, who cared about football players or cheerleaders or shit like that? i knew ONE girl who was pressed on that shit, and she became a cheerleader and was on the homecoming court. of course, since i dated her, does that mean i was "popular"? LOL

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
22276 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:53 AM

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10. "Realistically, popularity matters to a lot of kids..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


High school kids do a lot of crazy things in the name of popularity. A kid with a solid support system may still suffer in school or among his/her peers due to the teenage phenomenon of popularity.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:56 AM

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14. "i was a teenager, too."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

and "popularity" just wasn't important in my ghetto high school. it might've mattered to the cheerleaders, but ain't nobody else really give a fuck. everybody had their own set of friends and social circles they ran in.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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BigReg
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:58 AM

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17. "Yours is a special case"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Id argue that its MUCH less of an issue in poor schools just because they have other fish to fry(overcrowding, etc).

But there are still sliding scales of popularity

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:02 AM

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20. "but if it's much less of an issue in poor schools..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

...and most black schools in this country are poor, which they are, then how salient is this study anyway? i mean, certainly, the basketball team, and certain of the football players, were popular, as were certain of the hustlers, but i just don't see where it was hyper-important to folks. but as i said, i was a nerd, but dated a cheerleader, so maybe my POV is skewed.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:01 AM

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19. "ok..."
In response to Reply # 14


          

all the schools I went to, popularity was paramount...



www.port-morgan.com
www.madeinmtl.com
www.darfurinfo.org

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:44 AM

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2. "I didn't read all that so after the first quote I was like "huh""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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Prodiqal_Son
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Mon Jun-06-05 09:45 AM

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3. "Ctrl+P....I'll be back with my thoughts on this article"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

supporting a friend: www.clutchmagazine.com ...at a local newsstand near you, soon!
_____________________________
I'm not a businessman, I'm a BUSINESS man! (c) S. Carter

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:46 AM

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5. "black kids see nerds the same way white kids do."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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lingo
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61467 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:50 AM

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8. "oh really? So when a white kids sees a nerd he's says he acting"
In response to Reply # 5


          

white?

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 09:53 AM

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11. "put the crack down."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
70279 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:07 AM

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27. "sometimes I have to wonder about lingo..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

that reply didn't even follow to what you said....

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:11 AM

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30. "that was the clearest case of turning someones words around"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

i've ever seen.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
lingo
Charter member
61467 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:20 AM

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34. "Not twisting your words at all."
In response to Reply # 30


          

Clearly, black and white kids do not see nerds the same way. If black kids think of black nerds as acting white, then who do white kids think of white nerds then?

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:22 AM

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36. "i knew exactly what you said"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

but i'm clearly disagreeing with people saying that black kids equate intelligence with whiteness. for the most part they equate stooshness with that.

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                            
lingo
Charter member
61467 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:25 AM

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38. "ok, so no need to act brand new."
In response to Reply # 36


          

as you knew what I was talking about. Now that you've clarified what you meant, I know what you're talking about.

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:26 AM

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39. "but "put the crackdown" was so funny at the moment."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
lingo
Charter member
61467 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:20 AM

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35. "RE: sometimes I have to wonder about lingo..."
In response to Reply # 27


          

>that reply didn't even follow to what you said....

naaawl, it just went over ya'll head.

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:27 PM

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61. "says people who attempt to overstand rather than just get it"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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BigReg
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12. "The smarted kids aren't always the nerdiest tho"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Out of the schools I went to, usually its a 50/50 split between nerds and popular kids for the top spots as far as grades are concerned.

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:05 AM

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23. "true indeed"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

my point was the kids that got made fun of
there prolly was a reason behind it (like hey maybe they really did act white? it happens)
i don't remember anybody ever making fun of people for getting good grades
the people who REALLY could give a fuck about school...weren't there
everyone else cared atleast a LIL bit. if not them somebody at home


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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29. "i don't know"
In response to Reply # 5


          

i mean, while I still thinking teh whoel acting white thing is overblown, I do believe being "cool" is more important to black people than it is to whites...



www.port-morgan.com
www.madeinmtl.com
www.darfurinfo.org

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:11 AM

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31. "anyone who sees anyone as a "nerd" has the same mentality"
In response to Reply # 29
Mon Jun-06-05 10:12 AM by keybored

  

          

the only fucked up thing is
white people can get by on that mentality
we can't

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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brainsoup_
Member since Oct 20th 2004
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:28 AM

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42. "RE: anyone who sees anyone as a "nerd" has the same mentality"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>the only fucked up thing is
>white people can get by on that mentality
>we can't

co-sign.

  

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Olu
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47. "Basically"
In response to Reply # 5
Mon Jun-06-05 10:45 AM by Olu

  

          

.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:00 AM

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18. "Many kids due to outside influences as well as media"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

believe being smart is acting white. Grades don't dictate who is smart but that is a entire different subject. This is another prime example of how useless the media is especially for black people because children just don't pull this shit out their ass they get it from television.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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poetx
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56. "bingo: black + intelligent = successful is not reinforced in either"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

the predominant culture, or, to large extent, in our own culture. kids therefore don't see this as something to identify with or aspire to. but there's a jillion examples (via mass media which commoditizes our culture) of black folks who get over and get paid by getting sweaty on a court or field of some sort, or who get paid for being hustlas (either the real ones on the block, or the faux ones in recording booths).

so even having a similar anti-intellectual bent as the general society, the impact is not the same for us, because we lack the norming view of general society.

those of us who are successful probably look beyond the mass media for validation.





peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

"But I'm just saying, thats my blanket policy as a grown ass adult." - Crucian1


my philosophy on free time:

"and next time when he get it he'll waste it on somethin'

  

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mareva
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:04 AM

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22. ""the cult of anti-intellectualism""
In response to Reply # 0


          

in john mcwhorter's losing the race deals with this.

is it just me or is the report very scant on the analysis?

i may be back later with a longer reply.

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:07 AM

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26. "the cult of anti-intellectualism, to be frank, is a white thing."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

and mcwhorter's book was long on personal anecdotes and extrapolation from that, and extremely short on any real analysis. in other words, it was a crock, and who puts any stock in that fool?

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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mareva
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43. "while i agree with your criticism, i wouldn't completely dismiss..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

his general ideas.

  

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Olu
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51. "His general ideas hold true regardless of race"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

I went to school in ghana and still got into trouble for being one of the nerdiest guys in my class. Plus I went to college with a whole bunch of white kids who were never popular in high school. If you're smart and don't have the social skills to balance it out you will catch hell. Period.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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sociologik
Member since Jul 09th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 01:16 PM

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64. "co-sign"
In response to Reply # 26


          


$ociologik
________________________________________________________________________

OKFreeAgent™ : Perfecting the Fine Art of Non-Conformity

  

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ChiBrownSkinLady
Member since Nov 14th 2002
30211 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:06 AM

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25. "My experiences corroborate this article."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

My elementary school was pretty diverse, and a lot of the time I was accused of "acting white" or "talking white" by some of my friends that weren't on the honors track. The kids in my classes never really seemed to have issue with the way I was.

My high school, on the other hand, was nearly 90% black, though the bulk of my close friends weren't (and still aren't). I think by that point, most people just assumed that I wasn't going to try to fit the stereotypical mold, and people just accepted me as I was. I wasn't what one would conventionally call popular, but because I was so involved in a lot of groups in the school, people knew who I was, and I rarely got shit from anyone.

http://www.aidsmarathon.com/participant.asp?runner=CH-3006&EventCode=HN05

  

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Lord_Vingtune
Member since Jun 26th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:09 AM

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28. "the bad kids are always the most popular tho...James dean style"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I kinda get where they were going tho

  

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Torez
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32. "when i went to hood schools, i never heard 'acting white'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if you weren't corny, you were just 'the smart boy'

the few times i heard the term, it was when i
went to mixed schools.

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
43228 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 10:19 AM

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33. "black kids trying to hold on to their "blackness" in a white"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

environment?


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:25 AM

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37. "or the idea of what blackness is?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

i mean,when i went to school in Haiti, nobody was ostracized for being smart...actually, it was something people strived for.
I would assume it would be the same in a predominently black school

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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40. "my brain hurts just thinking about it"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

i guess when you're around white people
its easier to pick up the "black people are dumb" mentality

http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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Torez
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41. "yes, absolutely....i got props for being smart"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

not onlly by the faculty, but by
nood cats i grew up with.

BUT i think the fact that they KNEW
me and i went out of my way to be
cool with them, insulated me
from whatever venom they might
have spit.

also, i had cool cousins and whatnot.

if i had been a total cornball or something,
it might have been different.
----------------------------------
The epitome of man’s sinfulness is trying to be like God, without God (Isaiah 14:14)

  

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chillsm00th
Member since Mar 25th 2005
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Mon Jun-06-05 11:14 AM

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50. "lol...funny story."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

basically, i had my own lil church crew, and didn't really study most folks. i was the smartest kid in school, etc, and i think cats that didn't know me DID have the impression that i was something other, cuz i dressed preppy, won spelling bees, etc -- basically was just different.

my junior year, silkk da shocker's second album came out, and i had to review it for the school paper. well, that shit was GOOD, and i gave it a glowing review. cats seriously came up to me in the hallway after that like, yea man, that silkk is tight, i'm glad you gave it a good review. i think that gave me more cred during my years in HS than anything else i ever did.

<--All-American couple


"people on here just be like " go for it man! its sex! god forbid you turn down SEX! *dances around the baal statue*" -- Stephbit

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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55. "word"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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Torez
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:30 AM

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44. "maybe....my experience is that when we are in"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

inter-racial schools, there is more
of a sense of seperating us. black
kids that are put in the ap classes
associate with more white kdis by
default. the other black kids
may feel 'LEFT BEHIND' especially
if 'smart black kids'

- sound, act, and socialize like
the white kids they've been suddenly
exposed to

~ the teachers deal with the LEFT
BEHIND black kids differently than
they do with the 'smart' black kdis

kids notice those type things.
----------------------------------
The epitome of man’s sinfulness is trying to be like God, without God (Isaiah 14:14)

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:38 AM

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46. "that's my experience too."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

when i was put into honors classes in a mixed school i had less access to Black students in the course of a school day.

fuck you.

  

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keybored
Member since Apr 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:09 PM

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57. "true"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          


http://bkbrickhouse.blogspot.com
last updated 051505

"sis...there is a cabal of dem bitches on this board,
one of dem fassys flashes the 'gaybatsignal'
and you can hear the chi-chi dem ostrich stampeding towards your post...

Bomberclart, what ah ting.

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Jun-06-05 10:35 AM

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45. "well i went to a suburban high school and my experience mirrors"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the study's findings. (i graduated in 1994, the study started the year after)

in my 1st yr of high school i rolled w/the popular Black kids and i had a 2.7ish GPA. at the beginning my sophomore yr i was still rolling w/them, but by the end of the yr we'd grown apart a bit. my GPA was higher, i was in advanced classes, and i was participating in theater...i can't attribute the change in my popularity w/Black kids to my grades alone. by junior yr i'd slipped in popularity w/the cool Black kids, i was in w/the nerdy Black kids & the theater geeks, i was taking college-level honors classes, and i had a 4.0. in senior yr my GPA was 4.5 or so and i was eating lunch in the library w/a couple other known but not exactly popular Black kids so we could do our homework. LOL

wow.

at the reunion in October everything was the same too.

fuck you.

  

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brownivy
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Mon Jun-06-05 11:06 AM

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48. "In junior high..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...I went to a "diverse" school, and my grades plummeted (from straight A's to C's, D's, F's). There were many other variables (self-esteem, family ish, etc) but one of the de-motivators was my want to not stick out or be made fun of...cuz I didn't fit in w/ the white kids, but I didn't fit in w/ the blacks either.

I attended a predom-Black high school and my experience was completely different. I mean, I was a lame...but not because I got good marks or was into the arts (which I was)-actually those things saved what little status i had...more for "traditional" reasons (lack of fashion sense or the means to achieve it, strict parenting, no social skills, questionable attractiveness). I had a well-rounded academic experience, played sports, dated and had a variety of friends across socio-economic (if not cultural) lines. Also, most the "popular" kids were in the honors classes, and made more of a point of making fun of blatent stupidity over most other things...

Now Ivy League...that was a whole other plate of yams...that could warrant some interesting studies.

The Cali version of me.


--<http://www.myspace.com/brownivy>--

  

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Lardlad95
Member since Jul 31st 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 11:08 AM

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49. "Did we really need Harvard to prove what we already knew?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


The white man is very clever…We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart-Obierika

  

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grammarian
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Mon Jun-06-05 11:53 AM

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52. "sociologists, steering you wrong since 1900"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-06-05 11:56 AM by grammarian

          

i keed, i keed. some of my bestest friends are sociologists.

all jokes aside, it seems like this is what happens when researchers oversimplify or mis-appropriate "common" knowledge. sometimes the things folk commonly say don't translate well when taken as a form of empirical measurement. i can imagine some conservative reader of the washington post concluding that black and latino communities need only embrace achievement like "d. whiteman" has done and all of our woes will cease. i mean, the "acting white" thing is no new phenomenon. as most of the responses to this post show, a lot of us have heard of the phrase. but, as the responses also show, that doesn't mean that all of us (black and latino folk) have been plagued by taunts of "acting white" either. not everybody who has high scholastic achievement, or low scholastic achievement for that matter, is dogged by the fear of acting white. this is not to discount the study, but to contextualize it. i'm sure that this "new" observation the harvard researchers have made will be considered by educational policy folk, or at least by the general public (whomever they may be). and i'm sure that this "acting white" thing can lead some of them off into a tangent, into believing that the causes of black and latino academic underachievement have more to do with some abstract fear of "acting white" than with the continued political, social, and economic inequalities these groups face. i don't know how many students have been prohibited from going to college for fear of acting white, but i do know that there are a grip of high school kids who've been told that college just isn't "for them," who were never even encouraged by their teachers to apply, who were told that they'd be "better off" learning a trade. somebody should study that. what would a harvard sociological study look like that assessed the relationship between discouraging, disparaging guidance counselors and the achievement of students of color? i'm not saying that the acting white thing is a non-issue. i just suspect that it's neither the sole nor the primary cause of scholastic underachievement in students of color.

and as a personal aside, i graduated high school with a 4.1 GPA. I did the whole IB diploma thing, and I went to an "academic magnet" school that was mostly white, but had a strong group of black students (it was the south, and the latino and asian student population was relatively small). in 9th grade, a history teacher was handing out progress reports. everybody sitting around me got an "A" and I got a B+; i was the only black person in the otherwise all-white class. there had been no major tests, and nothing really to base grades on. i couldn't for the life of me understand why i didn't get the same grade as my peers, since we'd done the same quality of work for the last 3 weeks. so, i asked the teacher what was goings on. he looked me squarely in the face and replied, "my dear, some of us are just B+ students." i think we really need to understand and investigate the importance of tracking (i.e. racial profiling) in the educational system. yeah, some black and latino kids do get accused of acting white. and it's a damn shame. but plenty others get typecast--by teachers, parents, administrators and the like--as simply being incapable of success. where's the harvard study on that?

peace,

grammie

Q:Are you a fool, fool?
A: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes!
--My dad cracking a joke.
Love you, Pa.

  

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mareva
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54. "thanx for htat..."
In response to Reply # 52


          

and i've long thought that educational tracking is the devil.

but that's a whole nother conversation.

  

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sociologik
Member since Jul 09th 2002
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:31 PM

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63. "um, this study was done by economists"
In response to Reply # 52


          

*offended*

$ociologik
________________________________________________________________________

OKFreeAgent™ : Perfecting the Fine Art of Non-Conformity

  

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victoriawst
Member since Nov 05th 2004
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:01 PM

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53. "Glad i went to a hs where smarts=popularity"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

At my high school the whole popular crew in my year were all in AP and honors classes, NHS, and constantly on the honor roll. It was sooo uncool to be dumb. The thign is my high school was 100% black in the inner city. I defintely think that schools can change this perception, mine did.

"We should not let ourselves be burnt for our opinion: we are not sure of them. But perhaps for this: that we may have and change our opinions"

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  

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fire
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:23 PM

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58. "did they take into account inner city schools w/horrible curriculums?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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poetx
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:26 PM

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59. "this analysis conveniently ignores teacher impact on 'popularity' and pe..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

group identification. they need to study that, too.

because there are a few background facts...

** teacher expectation is HIGHLY correlated with kids' academic acheivement

** the US is a historically racist country with a prevailing mythos of black (and you can add hispanic) intellectual inferiority

** popular culture depictions of blacks do little to validate or even acknowledge black intellectual acheivement/ popular cultural depictions of blacks GREATLY overemphasize black physical and entertainment achievement.

given all of that shit...

the way that the educational system works is that it tracks kids and creates self-fulfilling prophecies based upon educator (societal) expectations. high acheiving blacks (particularly in schools with significant non-black populations) are therefore seen as 'exceptions' and not as the desired outcome for all blacks.

throughout my schooling, starting in 5th grade, my predominantly black school district in NJ piloted G&T (gifted and talented). there was a lot of taking us out of class and putting us off into special classes.

that creates a schism in your peer group. oh? y'all on some other shit. cats i was cool with in 3rd grade considered me out of the group in 5th and 6th.

i didn't 're-integrate' back into my peer group until jr. year of high school, and it was mostly the result of sports and hip hop that bridged the gap.

teachers would attempt to treat me like i was special. different. i would fight that. but the realities of meeting my academic appetites meant that there was differentiation, and kids do notice that.

as i've said many times, i had a couple teachers (white)in h.s. tryin to correct my speech in the hallways. only math teachers, b/c my english teachers knew i was getting high A's with ease. i had to let these other teachers know that i understood the difference between 'standard' and colloquial english, and was quite capable of making my own choice of situationally-appropriate vernacular.

it would be years later before i'd read about and understand duboisian consciousness and AAVE, etc., but i lived the principles.

we NEED proactive measures now to provide black (i hate the word role models) examples of academic/intellectual success, and to inflate the value of academic achievement in the school setting.




peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

"But I'm just saying, thats my blanket policy as a grown ass adult." - Crucian1


my philosophy on free time:

"and next time when he get it he'll waste it on somethin'

  

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sociologik
Member since Jul 09th 2002
8141 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 12:26 PM

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60. "i'm so fuckin tired of economists encroaching on our subject matter"
In response to Reply # 0


          

this is a SOCIOLOGICAL question, muthafuckas.

ok let me go back and finish reading it now.

down with economists!

especially harvard economists!

$ociologik
________________________________________________________________________

OKFreeAgent™ : Perfecting the Fine Art of Non-Conformity

  

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sociologik
Member since Jul 09th 2002
8141 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 12:28 PM

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62. "oh and btw: there has been NO quantitative support for the acting white..."
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Mon Jun-06-05 12:38 PM by sociologik

          

hypothesis. i don't know if the article mentions it, but this is ogbu's theory -- and it hasn't been supported, except in ethnographic studies.. and even then, it's been problematic. Sociologist Douglass Massey (et al .. 2003 ,I think), tested out a number of different theories attempting to explain the achievement gap.. they looked specifically @ high achieving minority students at selective universities across the country -- there was no support for the acting white hypothesis at all.. I'd love to actually look at the study cited in the article to see how they operationalized 'acting white' (it wasn't explained whatsoever here).. I'd also be interested in the methodology -- are we talking self-reported popularity? And what about students' perceptions of acting white - how is that accounted for? Without the neccessary qualitative analysis to complement the quantitative data, the argument seems mad weak to me.


$ociologik
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OKFreeAgent™ : Perfecting the Fine Art of Non-Conformity

  

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sociologik
Member since Jul 09th 2002
8141 posts
Mon Jun-06-05 04:33 PM

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65. "why did this post die? gotdammit"
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the one time there's an issue i can actually talk on with a bit of authority

gotdamn.

$ociologik
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OKFreeAgent™ : Perfecting the Fine Art of Non-Conformity

  

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