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Subject: "What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrace?" This topic is locked.
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Vex_id
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65616 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:24 PM

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"What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrace?"


          

Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight, and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and belittle those who identify as transracial?

I'm not particularly interested in the conservative opinion here, whereby they think transgendered *and* transracial are silly concepts not worthy of equal rights under the law.

I'm more interested in the progressive opinion - whereby in one respect, the cause of transgendered people is championed, yet on the flip side, the mere mention of transracial is a crime worthy of condemnation and clowning.

Do tell.

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
wait, transrace is a thing now?
Jun 12th 2015
1
the concept has been here for quite some time.
Jun 12th 2015
2
      are we talking passing? or one drop?
Jun 12th 2015
10
      Just as with gender identity, there isn't one answer.
Jun 12th 2015
14
           and im not looking for one answer
Jun 12th 2015
41
      White folks & Asians been trans-racial since the birth of hip-hop
Apr 14th 2019
585
I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now
Jun 12th 2015
3
RE: I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now
Jun 12th 2015
4
      but see then you're making race about genetics.
Jun 12th 2015
7
           so race is more about history than one's actual ethnic makeup?
Jun 12th 2015
8
                I wonder.....
Jun 12th 2015
12
                What is an "actual ethnic make up" if not an expression of history?
Jun 12th 2015
13
                     Certainly, history is integral to identity.
Jun 12th 2015
22
                     No, because sexuality doesn't function the way race does.
Jun 12th 2015
28
                          So....
Jun 12th 2015
29
                               I'm a part of the race is a social construct crowd.
Jun 12th 2015
34
                                    hmmmm
Jun 12th 2015
37
                                    Actually two black people can have an asian baby
Jun 15th 2015
284
                                         Actually no they can't.
Jun 18th 2015
512
                                    This still minimizes male privilege and patriarchy
Jun 12th 2015
40
                                         Yep. You're right on all counts here.
Jun 12th 2015
44
                     ok, this is a good articulation
Jun 12th 2015
23
                          true. that's a part of it that i still haven't quite be able to reconcil...
Jun 12th 2015
31
Because race is an expression of privilege...
Jun 12th 2015
5
Male privilege doesn't exist in a top-down patriarchal structure?
Jun 12th 2015
6
A white woman is still more privileged that a blk man
Jun 12th 2015
19
      ^^^^^
Jun 12th 2015
32
      not entirely true.
Jun 12th 2015
59
           Trans-racial is just as non exist an as post black
Jun 12th 2015
65
                depends on what somebody means by "trans-racial"
Jun 12th 2015
72
                     Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
78
                          RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
80
                               RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
137
                                    we will have to agree to disagree on a number of issues
Jun 13th 2015
154
                                         Race and gender are two separate things.
Jun 13th 2015
178
                                              for sure, but what distinguishes them from each other as "trans" theorie...
Jun 13th 2015
180
male privilege is fake now?
Jun 12th 2015
9
Well stated.
Jun 12th 2015
11
Not really.
Jun 12th 2015
16
      and they'd be wrong, but we have evidence of the contrary.
Jun 12th 2015
18
           what evidence is this?
Jun 15th 2015
235
i reject in totality that Black ppl are "below" anybody
Jun 12th 2015
15
what are we able to take from them?
Jun 12th 2015
38
.
Jun 12th 2015
17
Iin a lot of ways, "transracial" is an extreme expression of white privi...
Jun 12th 2015
33
Agreed.
Jun 12th 2015
35
this^^^
Jun 12th 2015
42
PREACH
Jun 12th 2015
45
I mean, I guess. But what about all the B/black people who
Jun 12th 2015
47
Most black ppl who have passed or do passed ARE part white...
Jun 15th 2015
278
so you're invalidating the whole concept based on one scenario?
Jun 12th 2015
62
You say that in contrast to how a transgendered woman is treated?
Jun 12th 2015
73
that same trans woman will also likely be taking hormone treatments
Jun 12th 2015
124
      #actually
Jun 13th 2015
142
High kicks!
Jun 12th 2015
96
..aaaaaannnnd SEEN.
Jun 15th 2015
254
      or scene
Jun 16th 2015
395
He's RIGHT!
Jun 12th 2015
He's RIGHT!
Jun 12th 2015
39
i get confused for conservative on this topic but i'm not
Jun 12th 2015
20
Well there's this:
Jun 12th 2015
24
That seems to be the crux of those who reject transgendered people:
Jun 12th 2015
27
A lot of these ambiguities spring up because...
Jun 12th 2015
21
Yes, I think this is a great point.
Jun 12th 2015
25
good post.
Jun 12th 2015
36
the black/Black dustups actually make sense in this scenario
Jun 12th 2015
43
I wonder what would happen if the idea of race was erased...
Jun 12th 2015
104
right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'
Jun 12th 2015
106
      RE: right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'
Jun 15th 2015
263
And this is exactly the struggle transgender people are fighting
Jun 12th 2015
48
this is pretty much what i came in to post
Jun 12th 2015
100
      nah...sloppy science is used for both
Jun 15th 2015
236
      it could be argued that gender is but sex isn't
Jun 15th 2015
238
The people comparing these two are either white or transphobic.
Jun 12th 2015
26
One is culture and the other is biological
Jun 12th 2015
30
I am pretty sure you can't distinguish fetuses by race.
Jun 12th 2015
76
What would be gender dysphoria for transrace?
Jun 12th 2015
46
the japanese b-stylers
Jun 12th 2015
49
Apparently they have theme parks
Jun 12th 2015
50
sad face
Jun 12th 2015
51
Jamal, talk white! (c) Kid in House Party 2
Jun 12th 2015
52
      oh shit
Jun 12th 2015
54
That girl, Hina, tho.....?
Jun 12th 2015
53
sans or with tan?
Jun 12th 2015
55
I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures
Jun 14th 2015
195
      RE: I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures
Jun 14th 2015
227
alright, IF...IF we were to take this goofy ass argument for real...
Jun 12th 2015
56
True.
Jun 12th 2015
57
Find someone 50 years ago....
Jun 12th 2015
58
      yes but, the act of gender bending has been around forever.
Jun 12th 2015
60
What if this was our out?
Jun 12th 2015
61
sure, but it's very arbitrary as to when people legitimize identity.
Jun 12th 2015
63
sidenote: notice how we champion self-identity in one instance...
Jun 12th 2015
64
because it's largely unnecessary
Jun 12th 2015
66
RE: because it's largely unnecessary
Jun 12th 2015
68
Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
70
      RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
71
           RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
74
                RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
75
                     Yah....I anticipated that.
Jun 12th 2015
79
you can feel like a woman. feeling black doesn't exist without societal ...
Jun 12th 2015
67
why is that left up to you adjudicate and understand?
Jun 12th 2015
69
i'm not saying its up to me, i just want to understand how it works.
Jun 12th 2015
81
      it's obviously something emerging as an entry to a larger discussion
Jun 12th 2015
113
I think yall are wrong saying gender doesn't involve societal context
Jun 12th 2015
77
fair enough.
Jun 12th 2015
83
There's no way of ever knowing that what you're feeling is woman
Jun 12th 2015
95
right. trans is something that can be apparent during childhood
Jun 13th 2015
140
Who are these people who consider themselves transracial?
Jun 12th 2015
82
I've asked
Jun 12th 2015
92
      I think it's telling that they won't speak in specifics
Jun 12th 2015
122
           The reason there aren't specifics is because it's a new concept.
Jun 12th 2015
129
                Our specific example is Rachel
Jun 15th 2015
250
My question is why are people trying so hard to distinguish the two?
Jun 12th 2015
84
This is the most fascinating part of this conversation to me:
Jun 12th 2015
85
It just proves my theory that all ppl are self-ish and self-serving
Jun 12th 2015
87
I'm seeing a ton of pushback from black and white people on the internet
Jun 12th 2015
88
      Well I am talking about a very specific group, Pro-transgendered and ant...
Jun 12th 2015
91
      lol right.
Jun 12th 2015
105
one deals with gender, one deals with skin color
Jun 12th 2015
86
The argument (that we're trying to dismantle)
Jun 12th 2015
97
      don't dismantle it, simply ignore it
Jun 12th 2015
108
           I don't think it's a waste of time.
Jun 12th 2015
114
                i agree with that, however
Jun 12th 2015
115
transgender folks are normal & transrace
Jun 12th 2015
89
Whatever someone wants to identify as.....
Jun 12th 2015
90
being black stymies ANY exploratory process. off rip.
Jun 12th 2015
93
One is real and one is racist...
Jun 12th 2015
94
I think everyone agrees with you.
Jun 12th 2015
98
Nope. Its the same damn thing
Jun 12th 2015
101
Total utter self-serving bullshit. One is a thing and the other is not ...
Jun 12th 2015
102
Yup.. I was late as fuck on your angle but you are killing it on this is...
Jun 12th 2015
107
Please, you read Ms. Jenners 5 page article
Jun 12th 2015
111
      Haven't read it yet. I guess you didn't notice that my position isn't
Jun 12th 2015
126
lol wow.
Jun 12th 2015
109
      White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long
Jun 12th 2015
116
      predictably, you want to make this about you.
Jun 12th 2015
117
      k
Jun 12th 2015
118
      How does all you just said, not apply to transgendered?
Jun 12th 2015
128
      I agree with all that.
Jun 12th 2015
130
      It's the transgenders peeping in the locker room argument lol
Jun 12th 2015
119
           Except those are their unfounded fears
Jun 12th 2015
120
                So this lady in the news today is a racist?
Jun 12th 2015
121
                There is a high chance she made up fake hate crimes
Jun 12th 2015
123
                What makes her racist? Misguided comes to mind but what makes her a raci...
Jun 12th 2015
125
                     Well there is the black face part for starters.
Jun 12th 2015
133
                          Again, apply your logic to transgender.
Jun 12th 2015
136
                               black face and transgender people are not equivalent.
Jun 12th 2015
138
                                    If you describe what that lady is doing is blackface then clearly you
Jun 13th 2015
145
                                         If this was black face than that is black face
Jun 13th 2015
150
                                              It's really weird
Jun 13th 2015
152
                                                   it is - and it's also logically bankrupt.
Jun 13th 2015
153
                                                        Only if you continue to view this ahistorically
Jun 15th 2015
268
I guess I'm still stuck on the individuals being used for comparison
Jun 12th 2015
99
But this is only because we knew Jenner beforehand...
Jun 12th 2015
103
the major component to passing is secrecy otherwise you're not passing
Jun 12th 2015
127
How can one be trans race when one can only be human?
Jun 12th 2015
110
to put it this way, i'm not going to deconstruct a turd
Jun 12th 2015
112
To answer the ?, they say race isn't scientific but gender is.
Jun 12th 2015
131
Also this question from a white supremacist society is some bullshit
Jun 12th 2015
132
ya'll niggas, the white and black and others among you, are wild as shit...
Jun 12th 2015
134
i understand one and don't understand the other.
Jun 12th 2015
135
trans ppl have existed for centuries
Jun 13th 2015
139
Buddy and Vex...thank you
Jun 13th 2015
141
Too be fair, I don't if I am completely sold on either.
Jun 13th 2015
146
Not everybody views that as a good thing.
Jun 13th 2015
148
      Things that people say ONLY after integration for $100 Alex.
Jun 15th 2015
264
           Garvey said it prior...
Jun 16th 2015
334
                How'd that work out for the Garvey-ites?
Jun 16th 2015
414
                     Pretty well until integration. What has integration done for
Jun 17th 2015
498
she's good as any because you can't be transracial without lying
Jun 13th 2015
149
      Slippery slope.
Jun 13th 2015
151
           What part of "performance" is police brutality?
Jun 13th 2015
157
I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel.
Jun 13th 2015
143
RE: I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel.
Jun 13th 2015
144
Caitlyn Jenner is DOING exactly what you said she isn't doing.
Jun 13th 2015
147
It's simple:
Jun 13th 2015
171
      This is called a dinstinction without a difference.
Jun 15th 2015
262
That "going natural" bullshit offends me more than any of it really...
Jun 13th 2015
156
there is no difference bc you are who you are...
Jun 13th 2015
155
Melissa-Harris Perry is talking about it
Jun 13th 2015
158
Transrace is a new white supremacist buzzword. White privilege
Jun 13th 2015
159
lol this is such non-sense, but entertaining non-sense.
Jun 13th 2015
160
I outright dismissed "transracialism" when framed by the Jenner situatio...
Jun 13th 2015
161
      you dismissed the mere mention of "transrace" as white supremacist jargo...
Jun 13th 2015
164
I find it absolutely consistent to dismiss transgenderism and transracia...
Jun 13th 2015
181
I'm with what Buddy said ultimately:
Jun 13th 2015
162
Man, its so entertaining watching people justify one and not the other.....
Jun 13th 2015
163
that's the dangerous crossroads right there.
Jun 13th 2015
165
Post 171.
Jun 13th 2015
172
      Naw, that post is pretty refutable.
Jun 15th 2015
266
People may not like the comparative analysis w/ gender,
Jun 13th 2015
166
Potential biological and chemical urges are present in one case
Jun 13th 2015
167
this is why:
Jun 13th 2015
168
RE: What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrac...
Jun 13th 2015
169
There's a huge problem in this.
Jun 13th 2015
173
yea see, you want to make it about you.
Jun 13th 2015
175
Michael Jackson was transgender and transracial
Jun 13th 2015
170
Did he identify himself as a woman? I dont recall.
Jun 13th 2015
185
lulz
Jun 14th 2015
199
Michael Jackson was very clear that he was a Black man
Jun 19th 2015
534
and how is this (transrace, i.e.) not cultural appropriation?
Jun 13th 2015
174
It is if you think culture can be appropriated. If you think culture can...
Jun 13th 2015
183
      so american indians should stop bitching
Jun 14th 2015
196
.
Jun 13th 2015
176
huffpo article on Dolezal v Caitlyn
Jun 13th 2015
177
Started off promising but falls into the same trap.
Jun 13th 2015
179
i am so sick of
Jun 15th 2015
247
They are both the same in that neither exists.
Jun 13th 2015
182
your mistake is thinking social constructs don't exist.
Jun 13th 2015
184
They exist the same way black 'super strength' exists
Jun 14th 2015
193
      So you don't believe in the Social Construct of 'Money'?
Jun 16th 2015
481
           Money has the value of whatever goods or service are attached
Apr 14th 2019
583
Where is the "power" in being transgender? My nigga, what are you saying...
Jun 13th 2015
186
      The power is in the organizations that pull or grant their sponsorship
Jun 14th 2015
194
Would you agree that white supremacy is part of US ideology?
Jun 14th 2015
187
Lets say I'm for transrace.. outright lying about your past is that too?
Jun 14th 2015
188
exactly.
Jun 14th 2015
189
Go ahead and let the advocates align it with pathological lying
Jun 14th 2015
190
heh I'm sayin, is Bruce saying he was a mom who ran against women?
Jun 14th 2015
192
she is a pathological liar, she's not "trans race" or any other made up ...
Jun 15th 2015
279
I hear but that should apply to transgendered as well. Is
Jun 14th 2015
200
#192 e.g. did he say he raised kids as a mom?
Jun 14th 2015
213
yea, there have never been cases of trans lying about their sex
Jun 15th 2015
237
One is a fraud that requires you lie
Jun 14th 2015
191
I think you are confusing transexual and transgender
Jun 15th 2015
257
MHP is talking about it again this morning w/ a panel...
Jun 14th 2015
197
Proving?
Jun 14th 2015
198
      proving that there is merit in having a broader discussion.
Jun 14th 2015
210
           Has Dolezal even identified as trans-racial?
Jun 14th 2015
228
                the discussion is really less about her than it is the concept of transr...
Jun 14th 2015
229
                     White people have a constitution right to express themselves.
Jun 14th 2015
230
                          There's a difference in supporting Dolezal's decision to lie
Jun 17th 2015
494
Drop the passive-aggressiveness and state your major premise.
Jun 14th 2015
201
so... where do you stand on this?
Jun 14th 2015
202
i disagree that transrace & transgender are the same thing.
Jun 15th 2015
252
My major premise is that self-identification should have a broader scope
Jun 14th 2015
203
it's not valid if you have to make up a new history.
Jun 14th 2015
204
      u are letting the example ruin it though
Jun 15th 2015
256
I already have, but here's more detail attached on to it:
Jun 14th 2015
208
I don't think my point has been addressed yet.
Jun 14th 2015
220
this here
Jun 15th 2015
239
Niggas aint even trying to be subtle about it.
Jun 14th 2015
223
Those who are pro transracial is it okay to identify
Jun 14th 2015
205
Why do you have to resort to people transitioning for nefarious reasons?
Jun 14th 2015
206
lmao.. thr foxnews fear tactics are hilarious.
Jun 14th 2015
207
lol right. We've already been over this.
Jun 14th 2015
209
is there a moral / non nefarious reason to outright lie
Jun 14th 2015
211
      How's that different from Caitlin or Janet Mock applying for
Jun 14th 2015
212
      there's no lie attached
Jun 14th 2015
215
           Forget this woman. A white woman who feels in her soul that she is Blac...
Jun 14th 2015
221
                I guess I've arrived to a place where this is acceptable.
Jun 14th 2015
224
                That's a really good assessment of why the social justice world
Jun 14th 2015
225
                     ^excellent points by both you and denny here.
Jun 14th 2015
226
                Black/African American means you are a descendant of Africans
Jun 14th 2015
231
                     You are too focused on the lie
Jun 14th 2015
232
                     I doubt the gender/sex distinction has always been acknowledged everywhe...
Jun 15th 2015
242
      Is a transgender lying when they identify as the other sex?
Jun 14th 2015
217
           gender does not = biological sex
Jun 14th 2015
218
                The hypothetical application elides the two, so the question
Jun 14th 2015
222
white privilege >>>>>>> casino money and scholarships
Jun 14th 2015
214
      not necessarily. white people in california
Jun 14th 2015
216
           right, that's one small advantage in one very limited area
Jun 15th 2015
234
transracial is a thing, just not the way you think it is
Jun 14th 2015
219
^^^^of course this was ignored
Jun 18th 2015
520
Is it possible for an intersexed person not to be bisexual?
Jun 14th 2015
233
I don't think it's a 1:1comparison.
Jun 15th 2015
240
Are you implying that Transgenders have different biological
Jun 15th 2015
241
      nah, he's saying they visit doctors so it's different
Jun 15th 2015
255
      Uh no, I'm saying there's scientific research that has identified
Jun 18th 2015
506
           what research? what psychological markers?
Jun 19th 2015
522
      I said psychology and hormones.
Jun 18th 2015
505
The discourse would improve so much if special care was
Jun 15th 2015
243
Also, if we were to try to agree on a similar breakdown
Jun 15th 2015
244
This definition of race would disqualify Af-Am as black people
Jun 15th 2015
245
      I don't disagree that biological identifiers of race are problematic
Jun 15th 2015
246
This implies that trans people are trying to pass as cis...
Jun 15th 2015
248
^^^ this is where her story doesn't work for me
Jun 15th 2015
258
Again, complete utter bullshit.
Jun 15th 2015
259
      Try again...
Jun 15th 2015
261
      You're talking like everyone has a Masters degree in gender studies...
Jun 15th 2015
269
      I get that not everyone pays attention to these issues
Jun 15th 2015
271
      You sayin that transwomen don't describe themselves as "women"?
Jun 15th 2015
270
           They describe themselves as trans women.
Jun 15th 2015
272
           Yep yep.
Jun 15th 2015
274
           i have known a few trans men and women.
Jun 15th 2015
282
                The ones I've known/know freely identify themselves.
Jun 15th 2015
286
                     i agree.
Jun 15th 2015
289
                     Agreed
Jun 15th 2015
327
      a lot of people have this view
Jun 15th 2015
303
           Did you read the article you posted?
Jun 15th 2015
310
                you really can't be this stupid in real life
Jun 15th 2015
319
                     Are YOU this stupid?
Jun 15th 2015
322
A+ post would read again
Jun 15th 2015
249
She resigned. (very short swipe)
Jun 15th 2015
251
smart move.
Jun 15th 2015
253
after reading the post: one is made-up and the other is real
Jun 15th 2015
260
All social constructs are made up. That's why it's a social construct.
Jun 15th 2015
265
no, im very clear on what i mean
Jun 15th 2015
273
      Transrace has been a term used alot with people of one race
Jun 15th 2015
276
           in the context of this house that rachel built?
Jun 15th 2015
288
                Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? I think it might be.
Jun 15th 2015
292
                     LOL, yall are so pressed. "Tomorrow transclass might be a thing!"
Jun 15th 2015
296
                          *Kanye shrug* All types of things might become normal in
Jun 15th 2015
297
                               Like bestiality, right?
Jun 15th 2015
299
                                    I think that's an oversimplification of what's being discussed here.
Jun 15th 2015
301
                                    Let him have his fun, it makes him feel better.
Jun 15th 2015
304
                                    Let's get beyond "what" and talk about "who."
Jun 15th 2015
306
                                         I've never met one.
Jun 15th 2015
307
                                         Meeting one isn't a prerequisite for discussing an example.
Jun 15th 2015
312
                                              Agreed.
Jun 15th 2015
317
                                                   LOL.
Jun 15th 2015
321
                                         From what I've read, alot are transracial adoptees
Jun 15th 2015
308
                                              Now we're getting somewhere.
Jun 15th 2015
316
                                                   Lol, I literally never heard of it until last week.
Jun 15th 2015
323
                                                        This clearly explains why you kept relying on fictional scenarios
Jun 15th 2015
330
                                                             Oh, ok.
Jun 15th 2015
331
                                                             *dancehall horns*
Jun 16th 2015
338
                                    lol. Yup.
Jun 15th 2015
302
                                    You don't need to fear that transrace might cause people to turn
Jun 15th 2015
305
                                         And you don't need to fear the transclassers. Or the beastiality mvmt.
Jun 15th 2015
309
                                              You're probably right - I don't detect much of a threat from either of
Jun 15th 2015
311
several
Jun 15th 2015
275
      she sued howard for white discrimination? wtf?
Jun 15th 2015
291
      oh my lord.
Jun 15th 2015
294
      Bingo. Reply #188
Jun 15th 2015
295
           are you saying your dusty approval isnt needed for transracial?
Jun 16th 2015
345
                Yep. These transracial people in your imagination don't need my approval
Jun 16th 2015
361
here is the thing. Rachel is no Rosa Park (and definitely not a saint)....
Jun 15th 2015
267
You aren't being intellectually honest.
Jun 15th 2015
277
Someone wrote a think piece complimenting her do's to boot
Jun 15th 2015
280
the hair is the best example to me.
Jun 15th 2015
281
So I guess you find weaves deceptive too huh?
Jun 15th 2015
290
      what if she sued Howard University for racial discrimination?
Jun 15th 2015
298
           What do you know about Howard? If being mad at Howard about how you
Jun 16th 2015
344
OK, but can we be clear about something? She IS a FRAUD.
Jun 15th 2015
283
I think they gave someone jail time here
Jun 15th 2015
314
Do you think she is a fraud because of her appearance?
Jun 16th 2015
352
heres the thing with that
Jun 15th 2015
333
I'M CHINESE NOW.
Jun 15th 2015
285
same trap though.
Jun 15th 2015
287
but technology still doesn't allow for it 100%
Jun 15th 2015
315
      Fine.
Jun 15th 2015
320
But you don't need mechanisms to change from one race to another.
Jun 15th 2015
293
      Okay. SHAZAM. Now you're White. Thank me later.
Jun 16th 2015
339
lolz. if it weren't for okp...
Jun 15th 2015
300
what's the agenda behind making this non-thing into a thing?
Jun 15th 2015
313
an attempt to paint transgender advocates into a corner
Jun 15th 2015
318
I would embrace transracial if it gives bi/multiracial people a voice
Jun 15th 2015
324
sure. but that's not what's going on.
Jun 15th 2015
326
      but now that its out there, can it be steered in a legitimate direction?
Jun 15th 2015
328
      probably not.
Jun 16th 2015
370
           so then someone like my Grandmother is?
Jun 16th 2015
427
                sure.
Jun 16th 2015
434
      right, but...
Jun 15th 2015
329
yep, anybody tying this to caitlyn jenner is telling on themself
Jun 15th 2015
325
      That's not really true at all. Go back to the original Jenner posts.
Jun 16th 2015
337
           well, hold on a minute...
Jun 16th 2015
340
           And here we have it
Jun 16th 2015
348
                i have never hid my hand on OKP, it is a slippery slope... and you are s...
Jun 16th 2015
349
                I know, but Buddy misrepresented your position. Shame on him.
Jun 16th 2015
357
                     so you admit its up to us to decide if we accept self identity? cool
Jun 16th 2015
445
                Conversation is going 360 because that leads us back to why not let RQ
Jun 16th 2015
351
                     true, i feel as tho if you ride for one why wouldnt you ride for the oth...
Jun 16th 2015
354
                     you want us to ride for something that does not exist?
Jun 16th 2015
366
                     I think that Rachel is a liar who knows she is white.
Jun 16th 2015
365
                     CJ hasn't engaged in fraud as RD has.
Jun 16th 2015
374
                          Yep yep
Jun 16th 2015
443
           'the progressive position' <-- *eyes roll*
Jun 16th 2015
341
                there is a lot of Fox News language from BOTH sides on this issue
Jun 16th 2015
346
                     uh huh.
Jun 16th 2015
369
the agenda of the op is bit more...personal methinks...but I'll leave it...
Jun 15th 2015
332
      and Blacks arent making it personal in regards to Rachel?
Jun 16th 2015
350
      what are u even replying to? certainly not what i wrote because
Jun 16th 2015
356
           lmao.. yall are hilarious in here
Jun 16th 2015
359
                huh? Who is yall? I'm not transgender or 'transracial'? So again what
Jun 16th 2015
364
                     theatre major? why so dramatic
Jun 16th 2015
382
                          yeah as I thought, just say u were wrong and pressed
Jun 16th 2015
398
                               nah, just realized you got a whole lotta bitch in u bruh, 64 oz large gu...
Jun 16th 2015
444
                                    stop tough typing on the internet and reply 398
Jun 16th 2015
454
                                         that isn't tough talk if it's the truth
Jun 16th 2015
464
      seen and agree
Jun 16th 2015
368
why does everyone continue to mention white supremacy
Jun 16th 2015
335
this.
Jun 16th 2015
373
Because the conversation isn't just about being transsexual?
Jun 16th 2015
400
Because its about a white woman that pretending to be black?
Jun 16th 2015
472
Jelani Cobb went in re: "Rachel Dolezal and Our Lies About Race"
Jun 16th 2015
336
I'm actually glad we're having this kind of uncomfortable...
Jun 16th 2015
342
There's one huge caveat to that statement, we didn't "create" transgende...
Jun 16th 2015
343
      I'm sure transgender had to face something every day before changing
Jun 16th 2015
347
           you're confusing sexuality and gender.
Jun 16th 2015
362
           What you have to keep in mind is...
Jun 16th 2015
376
                interesting break down
Jun 16th 2015
384
                so gender is more than a social construct?
Jun 16th 2015
431
                     Research on the subject is relatively new, but yes.
Jun 16th 2015
439
                          this is why it's so problematic
Jun 19th 2015
528
BTW, if RD does one of those ancestry.com DNA tests and turns out to be
Jun 16th 2015
353
nope
Jun 16th 2015
355
      can I be white?
Jun 16th 2015
367
           Knock yourself out. Self-identify however you like. That doesn't mean
Jun 16th 2015
378
           how do I go about "acting" white once I've transitioned?
Jun 16th 2015
393
                IDK. you decided you wanted to self-identify so present it how you see
Jun 16th 2015
413
                     I don't wanna "self-identify". I wanna be white!
Jun 16th 2015
459
           i dont know... i guess, it would probably be an uphill battle tho
Jun 16th 2015
388
*keeps unpopular opinion to self*
Jun 16th 2015
358
LOL, dont be scurred, its been civil
Jun 16th 2015
360
      the world is a shit show
Jun 16th 2015
363
           That's an interesting angle I haven't heard yet.
Jun 16th 2015
372
                i just feel like people are who and what they are.
Jun 16th 2015
377
                i agree
Jun 16th 2015
383
                me too, you summed up stance in one sentence
Jun 16th 2015
                me too, you summed up stance in one sentence
Jun 16th 2015
386
                I can't speak for Nika, but I view it like this...
Jun 16th 2015
379
                     I know some lite skint Black people in Charlotte who dont identify as Bl...
Jun 16th 2015
390
                     Here's the thing, though...
Jun 16th 2015
402
                          but... what about when society sees a women who is clearly a man?
Jun 16th 2015
453
                               I get how that can be rough...
Jun 16th 2015
457
                     What about the M2F who clearly presents as a Male though?
Jun 16th 2015
403
                          I can understand how it may be jarring...
Jun 16th 2015
409
No difference except one is the agenda of popular culture
Jun 16th 2015
371
cards on the table: who here actually identifies or wants to identify as
Jun 16th 2015
375
I considered my friend Black. She considered herself "bi-racial"
Jun 16th 2015
380
that's not 'transrace'.
Jun 16th 2015
381
How are you distinguishing trans-racial and bi-racial issues.
Jun 16th 2015
391
easily.
Jun 16th 2015
408
my wife has a friend who is white, she was born and raised in japan
Jun 16th 2015
394
      based on that she's not part of this discussion.
Jun 16th 2015
411
           why not?
Jun 16th 2015
441
                b/c nothing in that told me how SHE identifies.
Jun 16th 2015
442
                     my wife says she is japanese... we debated for a while about it
Jun 16th 2015
447
                          *shrugs*
Jun 16th 2015
448
                               sure
Jun 16th 2015
451
                                    'Japanese' is not a racial identity.
Jun 16th 2015
452
                                         he's extremely dumb...like seriously
Jun 16th 2015
455
                                         Until you let that bitch in you, walk up out you.. don't speak to me
Jun 16th 2015
463
                                              ...that reply wasn't to you.
Jun 16th 2015
465
                                                   sure it wasn't
Jun 16th 2015
467
                                         lol, true.. but you knew what I meant.
Jun 16th 2015
461
                                              i did and that's why i said from the top she has no place
Jun 16th 2015
462
This supports the idea that race isn't intrinsic
Jun 16th 2015
387
Exactly, I was wrong to try to insist on some biological basis. Clearly
Jun 16th 2015
397
      But there's a biological basis for gender and orientation...
Jun 16th 2015
405
           Sure there is a biological basis for orientation, but what about gender?
Jun 16th 2015
412
           The same...
Jun 16th 2015
417
                Come one yo, your source talks about Disorders of gender identity.
Jun 16th 2015
426
                     So, you're ignoring the part where I said research is new?
Jun 16th 2015
432
           Race is based on biological features as well. It's just that
Jun 16th 2015
416
                The interpretation of those biological features...
Jun 16th 2015
419
                     Would you disagree that 'feeling black' is part of a shared
Jun 16th 2015
422
                          Absolutely
Jun 16th 2015
425
                               Hm, interesting. I think this is where we disagree then.
Jun 16th 2015
430
                                    I'm not sure where we differ based on your statement.
Jun 16th 2015
436
                                         Sorry about that, you're right. I definitely stopped short.
Jun 21st 2015
575
no, she was regarded as 0.5, or pointy as we call it
Jun 16th 2015
389
      He thought he was going to pull a fast one on us.
Jun 16th 2015
392
      lol! how did i miss this
Jun 20th 2015
541
      She told me she was regarded as white. You saying she lying?
Jun 16th 2015
396
           yes,
Jun 16th 2015
399
                maybe I mis-remember, maybe she lied (I doubt it), maybe she encountered
Jun 16th 2015
404
                     categorically no
Jun 16th 2015
429
                          Ohh I am suppose to categorically believe you now based on your last pos...
Jun 16th 2015
480
                               believe whatever you want to believe
Jun 16th 2015
482
lol, no.
Jun 16th 2015
385
If we were to characterize "transrace" as
Jun 16th 2015
420
      no.
Jun 16th 2015
428
           Lol! Well thanks for setting me on the straight and narrow :)
Jun 16th 2015
433
           'maintains ___ ethnicity'
Jun 16th 2015
438
                In particular not Michael fucking Jackson.
Jun 16th 2015
449
                yup. very much so.
Jun 16th 2015
450
                Lol! Yall are so dramatic in here. Look,
Jun 16th 2015
473
                Alright, I see you.
Jun 16th 2015
471
                     great.
Jun 16th 2015
474
           show your work
Jun 16th 2015
435
                *pats head*
Jun 16th 2015
440
                     ric, don't accept this shit.
Jun 16th 2015
484
I've seen so many jokes this week about "trans"
Jun 16th 2015
401
LMFAO. Truth be told, there's really no end to this "self-identify
Jun 18th 2015
507
Crissle from The Read has a special message for this post:
Jun 16th 2015
406
I'm listening to it now. She's on point, as usual.
Jun 16th 2015
410
DAMN!
Jun 16th 2015
483
HUNDALASILIAH!!
Jun 16th 2015
485
Elon James White & team have a special message for this post:
Jun 16th 2015
407
If I was trying to prove this was an agenda, I'd ask who first described...
Jun 16th 2015
415
Why must there even be an agenda?
Jun 16th 2015
418
      I hear you. And I agree. I am just thinking out loud cause I can't deny ...
Jun 16th 2015
421
      Lol, of course. I wasn't coming at you (or anyone) specifically
Jun 16th 2015
423
      There doesn't have to be, but there is
Jun 16th 2015
424
      Seen.
Jun 16th 2015
437
      You are wise and intelligent
Jun 16th 2015
488
      beautifully articulated. thanks for that.
Jun 16th 2015
490
Kareem talkin' bout it (TIME mag swipe)
Jun 16th 2015
446
Kareem hates the transgendered because he dared...
Jun 16th 2015
466
whatever happened to being happy with the uniform that god gave you?
Jun 16th 2015
456
we're way too self-indulgent and narcissistic for that nonsense.
Jun 16th 2015
458
Damn. et tu Nika?
Jun 16th 2015
477
      ?
Jun 16th 2015
486
absolutely.
Jun 16th 2015
460
not possible
Jun 16th 2015
469
1) everyone doesn't believe in god
Jun 16th 2015
478
      this is/was the same argument made against transsexuals/transgenders
Jun 17th 2015
499
           there's enough evidence that says transgender life is valid
Jun 17th 2015
501
                still a similar argument
Jun 18th 2015
503
I am noticing a trend on FB, my friends with the most identity issues
Jun 16th 2015
468
interesting
Jun 16th 2015
470
For me, FB has been surprisingly quiet...
Jun 16th 2015
475
LOL
Jun 16th 2015
476
'we need allies, not replacements' the daily show
Jun 16th 2015
479
and there it is.
Jun 16th 2015
487
Agreed
Jun 16th 2015
491
akon & blkprincemd: What exactly is my "agenda"?
Jun 16th 2015
489
transracial isnt a thing and never will be
Jun 17th 2015
492
We've already discussed that.
Jun 17th 2015
493
      Than the topic is closed.
Jun 17th 2015
495
you couldve just responsed under what is the agenda post
Jun 17th 2015
496
you mentioned that you 'agreed' that there was a specific agenda at play
Jun 17th 2015
497
      your motivation is very clear, your agenda... we still waiting
Jun 18th 2015
504
           you say it's 'very clear' yet you can't even say what it is.
Jun 18th 2015
508
                have the decency to leave this alone today.
Jun 18th 2015
509
                     I'm not leaving it alone - I'm actively working to combat it.
Jun 18th 2015
510
                          k.
Jun 18th 2015
511
                          I think we have the same friend.
Jun 18th 2015
514
                               RE: I think we have the same friend.
Jun 18th 2015
515
It's pretty clear
Jun 20th 2015
562
To me it's because it's possible to be born intersex
Jun 17th 2015
500
Sandra Laing?
Jun 18th 2015
513
      Didn't she have some unknown African ancestor though?
Jun 18th 2015
516
           the assumption is that she must have
Jun 18th 2015
518
                Yeah, but in South Africa
Jun 20th 2015
566
                     japan and korea?
Jun 21st 2015
576
                          The original example yes
Jun 25th 2015
579
the difference:
Jun 17th 2015
502
Transgender is likely biologically programmed
Jun 18th 2015
517
Transgender is more likely imaginary.
Jun 18th 2015
519
      fairly condident you arent qualified to make that kind of assessment
Jun 19th 2015
521
           i've done some and it still appears pretty damn inconclusive
Jun 19th 2015
523
                when you ppl have a better transrace example than Rachel D
Jun 19th 2015
524
                     MJ and Sammy Sosa?
Jun 19th 2015
529
                          MJ didn't just NOT claim white. He vehemently claimed Black.
Jun 19th 2015
533
                          nope and nope.
Jun 19th 2015
535
                               Why, in this perspective, does the claimed race identity
Jun 20th 2015
546
                               Race is not subjective.
Jun 20th 2015
554
                                    You have not resolved the logical flaws in this perspective.
Jun 20th 2015
563
                                         Michael Jackson got treated like a nigga.
Jun 20th 2015
567
                                              Some great points, but this is what you are not going to do:
Jun 21st 2015
570
                               Also, once you get into 'living as a black man' you are veering
Jun 20th 2015
549
500+ posts on a fictitious group of people and their
Jun 19th 2015
525
fictitious vs theoretical
Jun 19th 2015
526
theoretical vs. actual
Jun 19th 2015
527
      today's actual was yesterday's theoretical
Jun 19th 2015
530
           and yesterday's actual is today's okayplayer
Jun 19th 2015
531
           No.
Jun 19th 2015
532
           There have been... On TV even, but we collectively said
Jun 20th 2015
538
                Its crazy how dismissive they are on this subject
Jun 20th 2015
539
                because your phobias are peeping
Jun 20th 2015
540
                     smh, I'm not going to talk about Charelston in this thread.
Jun 20th 2015
545
                          the deflection exercises are astounding. Lot of mad & wrong posturing.
Jun 20th 2015
547
                               I would expect you to intereptet things that way.
Jun 20th 2015
552
                                    thanks for that awesome insight, Mike. Keep hiding behind an alias.
Jun 20th 2015
553
                                         Reply #555
Jun 20th 2015
556
                I'm sure you think so.
Jun 20th 2015
544
           today's theoretical is not yesterday's or today's actual.
Jun 19th 2015
536
Why are there +500 posts?
Jun 20th 2015
550
      actually
Jun 20th 2015
560
i've been turning Japanese since I was 11.
Jun 19th 2015
537
my blacker than black dinka brethren put ash on their bodies
Jun 20th 2015
542
forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement
Jun 20th 2015
543
      RE: forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement
Jun 20th 2015
548
      why object now?
Jun 20th 2015
559
      Alright, so can you please propose alternative explanations for
Jun 20th 2015
558
           blah blah, white supremacy, blah blah making their appearance ideal
Jun 20th 2015
564
           Lol I specifically asked for alternative explanations NOT
Jun 21st 2015
571
           Find one who actually LIVED as a white person and you might have a point...
Jun 21st 2015
573
right? these females claim they were turning male since they were kids
Jun 20th 2015
551
Race is not a subjective experience.
Jun 20th 2015
555
that's cute.
Jun 20th 2015
565
      Evidence would prove otherwise.
Jun 20th 2015
568
video related
Jun 20th 2015
557
after this week I didn't wanna be Black no more and now I see my way out...
Jun 21st 2015
572
      These people know exactly how you feel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe4AZRk...
Jun 21st 2015
577
lmao.
Jun 20th 2015
561
It's been a useful thread for me.
Jun 21st 2015
569
Who are those?
Jun 21st 2015
574
Those japanese who think they are black
Jun 21st 2015
578
race is only 200 years old and is a result of cultural insecurity
Apr 14th 2019
580
One is backed by fake hebrews
Apr 14th 2019
581
They aren't ready
Apr 14th 2019
584
My ninja, aintchu eva heard of Babysteps?
Apr 15th 2019
588
One is real, has been occurring in virtually every culture and the other
Apr 14th 2019
582
That approach we wouldn't acknowledge race which is only a few
Apr 14th 2019
586
      Are you TRYING to be dumb at this point?
Apr 14th 2019
587
      The best argument I've seen, which someone made above, is that
Apr 15th 2019
590
when the police pull me over can I identify as white?
Apr 15th 2019
589

akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:26 PM

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1. "wait, transrace is a thing now?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65616 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:28 PM

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2. "the concept has been here for quite some time."
In response to Reply # 1


          


-->

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:55 PM

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10. "are we talking passing? or one drop?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

and what does it mean to be white and feel that they are in the wrong skin
do they mean they feel they are maasai? or korowai?
is it skin is it culture?

is it biracial and choosing what side you fall on?

is it the priviledge of embracing something as an outsider looking in?



.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65616 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:58 PM

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14. "Just as with gender identity, there isn't one answer."
In response to Reply # 10


          

It's within the realm of sovereign individuality and what may
be true for one person, isn't for another.

I don't think you can look at two transgendered people and ask
them these types of questions in order to ascertain a consensus
on what it means to be in a woman's body but to feel like you are a man, per se.

Alike, I would imagine people who identify as "trans-racial" all have different
experiences distinguishable from one another that brings them to a place
where they reject normative racial identity.


-->

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 01:50 PM

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41. "and im not looking for one answer"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

i hope its quite clear that i dont understand this concept
outside of the story of this white woman
and even in that story i havent seen her explain what it means to be black
(except i guess being a (supposed) target of racial crimes. that's not a black identity. thats a consequence of)
so when someone says they feel that they are in the wrong race
and e.g if embracing black, are they saying they feel they are geechee?
creole?
or are they assuming a black american identity is just skin colour?
or a maasai just likes to wear red in the savannah?

i dont understand what sovereign individuality means.
perhaps you can give some examples tranrace people describing what their dysmorphia is.

and the reason i am not equating it to the transsexual identity is because i think i understand what that means
for some its the physical, for others its the physical and societal
for others it may just be the societal (definition of gender)

>where they reject normative racial identity.

which is?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
20180 posts
Sun Apr-14-19 05:40 PM

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585. "White folks & Asians been trans-racial since the birth of hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Pretty sure VEX can attest to this just like most of his fellow NYC hipsters.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
22092 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:33 PM

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3. "I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And I still don't have it completely worked out. But I race is about ancestry. It's about history. There isn't really room for fluidity in ancestry.


--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65616 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:38 PM

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4. "RE: I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>And I still don't have it completely worked out. But I race
>is about ancestry. It's about history. There isn't really room
>for fluidity in ancestry.

Why not? Is it not the case the overwhelming majority of us are comprised of a plethora of ancestral lineages dating back to our very first, original humanoid ancestors? Isn't that - as a matter of DNA composition - evidence of an ethnic fluidity within our DNA?

I would argue there's more empirical evidence to support a transracial theory than a transgender theory - although I consider transgendered to be absolutely legitimate because it is my belief that regardless of what sex you are born as (male/female) - you are comprised of both masculine and feminine principles - but this is much more difficult to empirically demonstrate than that of a simple DNA tests which proves the "racial"/ethnic fluidity of a human.


-->

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
22092 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:47 PM

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7. "but see then you're making race about genetics."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

and that's kinda what I'm arguing against.

It's about history. Who are my people. Where do they come from. What's their history.

Because since we know that there are more genetic differences within races than between them, once you bring that kind of science into it, it falls apart.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
65616 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:52 PM

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8. "so race is more about history than one's actual ethnic makeup?"
In response to Reply # 7


          



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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:57 PM

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12. "I wonder....."
In response to Reply # 8
Fri Jun-12-15 01:01 PM by denny

          

is part of the problem the distinction between race and culture? I mean....what does it mean to say 'I feel like a black man'. Isn't that a way of saying "I identify with black culture". It doesn't mean 'I think I have black skin"

I guess it doesn't provide the distinction you're looking for though. A transmale does not say 'I think I have a vagina'. They say "I identify with the gender roles that have been assigned to people with vaginas".

I don't know. I can't make the distinction. I tried to tackle it from a couple angles and have to admit....kept coming up blank.

I imagine that the lbgt community has language that differentiates between gender and race identities. I'd like to hear it too.

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
22092 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:58 PM

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13. "What is an "actual ethnic make up" if not an expression of history?"
In response to Reply # 8
Fri Jun-12-15 01:03 PM by Hitokiri

  

          

Maybe another way to put this is that two white people can have a baby. That baby can be male/boy, female/girl, can be intersex, can be somewhere in between. And it's perhaps reasonable to believe that somewhere along the line, something didn't quite line up the way that person feels they should.

But

Two white people cannot make a black baby. They cannot because their parents were not black, who can't because their parents were not black. Etc.

Like I said, I'm still grappling with this and it's articulation. But I think what I'm getting at is perhaps that gender identity is intrinsic or that it comes solely from within a person. There is a piece of racial identity that is instrinsic and comes from within, but a whole lot more of it is historical "baggage" so to speak. Race is expression of those two things and therefore isn't as fluid.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Vex_id
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22. "Certainly, history is integral to identity."
In response to Reply # 13
Fri Jun-12-15 01:08 PM by Vex_id

          

>Maybe another way to put this is that two white people can
>have a baby. That baby can be male/boy, female/girl, can be
>intersex, can be somewhere in between. And it's perhaps
>reasonable to believe that somewhere along the line, something
>didn't quite line up the way that person feels they should.
>
>But
>
>Two white people cannot make a black baby. They cannot because
>their parents were not black, who can't because their parents
>were not black. Etc.

I'm not sure I quite follow where you're going with this. If we're saying that
a person's claim to being "transracial" is invalid because both parents are considered to be of one "race", does that mean that a gay persons's claim to being gay is invalid if their parents
are both heterosexual?

The idea of 'transracial' challenges the black/white radicalization dynamic at its root,
so it would reject those as grossly simplistic and insufficient in order to accurately portray one's own composition. In other words, to say that one's parents are simply 'black' or 'white' is insufficient as it doesn't account for the myriad of lineages that likely are found within that person's DNA that do not fit into square boxes of 'black' and 'white'.



-->

  

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Hitokiri
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28. "No, because sexuality doesn't function the way race does."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

To straight people can have a gay baby. Two gay people can have a straight baby. We know these things to be true.

But again, because race is historical, two black people cannot make an Asian baby.

and to get to the second part. We live in a white supremacist society in which ones race has meaning, history, a lived experience, and material realities. I don't think transracial challenges the black/white "radicalization dynamic" in any way in that it's not challenging the white supremacist power structure of most of the world. So if one is "trans racial" and saying "I feel black" what is it that you're really saying that you feel? Again, I think you're putting race far too much into DNA and genetics and leaving out the history, which I would argue is the more important piece of it.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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29. "So...."
In response to Reply # 28
Fri Jun-12-15 01:22 PM by denny

          

The distinction is that race is empirical and quantifiable. Whereas gender is not.

I'm thinking that's the answer....not sure what it's gonna mean for the 'race is a social construct' crowd.

  

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Hitokiri
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34. "I'm a part of the race is a social construct crowd."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

But most of us (to my knowledge) also agree that while race is a social construct, there are material benefits/consequences for ones race. We have made those real.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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37. "hmmmm"
In response to Reply # 34
Fri Jun-12-15 01:35 PM by denny

          

If two black people can't have an asian baby....it seems on first glance that race can't be a social construct.

  

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Atillah Moor
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284. "Actually two black people can have an asian baby "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Black people as a whole (meaning globally) have all the traits to create a child that could be classified as Asian.

In theory two white people could as well. Because Asian is not a race. It is a collection of physical traits which have some degree of variance i.e. skin color, hair texture, etc.

This is yet another example of how race is really just a term/practice/system meant to divide people.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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40thStreetBlack
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512. "Actually no they can't."
In response to Reply # 284


          

>In theory two white people could as well.

attillah, i agree with you... in theory. in theory, communism works. in theory.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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MiracleRic
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40. "This still minimizes male privilege and patriarchy "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>But most of us (to my knowledge) also agree that while race
>is a social construct, there are material
>benefits/consequences for ones race. We have made those real.

But u have articulated a key distinction.
Race though man-made does have a dependent relationship on lineage. But then what about mixed kids? They may or may not experience the historical context of their given lineage often based on self-identification and physical appearance. Physical appearance also has a close relationship with race which makes it murky again.

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Hitokiri
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44. "Yep. You're right on all counts here."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

I can't add anything more, or refute any of what you just said.

Race is messy.

I am minimalizing patriarchy.

I think I would need to consult a feminist woc to help me flesh this all out more.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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MiracleRic
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23. "ok, this is a good articulation"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

the only oversight is that there is in historical baggage in regards to gender as well

patriarchy

but you make a good point

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Hitokiri
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31. "true. that's a part of it that i still haven't quite be able to reconcil..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

i'm working on it though.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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5. "Because race is an expression of privilege..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...in that I can culturally appropriate from races from further down the privilege pyramid, but they can't appropriate back upward, whereas transgender is a lateral transition that can go either way.

The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly different than those of gender, despite overlap and similarities.

  

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Vex_id
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6. "Male privilege doesn't exist in a top-down patriarchal structure?"
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Jun-12-15 12:52 PM by Vex_id

          

>The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly
>different than those of gender, despite overlap and
>similarities.

For sure - they aren't exactly the same by any stretch. But there is a power dynamic of privilege embedded in both gender and race.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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19. "A white woman is still more privileged that a blk man"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>>The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly
>>different than those of gender, despite overlap and
>>similarities.
>
>For sure - they aren't exactly the same by any stretch. But
>there is a power dynamic of privilege embedded in both gender
>and race.
>
>
>-->

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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32. "^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 19


          

  

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Vex_id
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59. "not entirely true."
In response to Reply # 19


          

A black man has generally held privileged positions of power before white women. See: Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Presidents, powerful positions within the papacy/church, CEOs etc..)

But ok - let's say that's conceded, so what?

That doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of trans-racial identity.

-->

  

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GirlChild
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65. "Trans-racial is just as non exist an as post black"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

And I'm going to disagree that blk men are more privileged than white women. Blk men have been lynched so looking, being near and sometimes innocently murdered bc of how much white men value white women more than blk men.

  

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Vex_id
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72. "depends on what somebody means by "trans-racial""
In response to Reply # 65
Fri Jun-12-15 04:29 PM by Vex_id

          

if by "trans-racial" they mean "racism is over" - then yea, that's just an absurd concept and ceases to have any meaning.

if by "trans-racial" - they mean moving beyond conventional models of race classification in an attempt provide more robust and expansive models of self-identification - then that has validity (scientifically, socially, and culturally).

>And I'm going to disagree that blk men are more privileged
>than white women. Blk men have been lynched so looking, being
>near and sometimes innocently murdered bc of how much white
>men value white women more than blk men.

For sure - but you said "privileged." Privilege tends to refer to power/opportunity/access to positions of power/prestige - and black men have attained positions of power and risen on the ladder of hierarchal power within authoritative positions before white women in many instances in this country. But if we're talking about who is profiled and subjected to racism and prejudice? Obviously it's not even a debate.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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78. "Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

Post racial is more about race not being a determining factor but still acknowledging that race exists.

I personally don't believe in it as it's pretty self referential. The problem with this woman is that she took generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting. And at the end of the day she can run back to her whiteness and be ok. Same with anyone who's white that grew up around mostly blk folks. They might culturally identify as blk but they aren't ethnically and will not be treated as such in society.

It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race when you're in a position of privilege and you are the majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can talk about fluidity.

  

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Vex_id
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80. "RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 78
Fri Jun-12-15 04:45 PM by Vex_id

          

>The problem with this woman is that she took
>generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that
>was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting.

What was her definition?

>And at the end of the day she can run back to her whiteness
>and be ok. Same with anyone who's white that grew up around
>mostly blk folks. They might culturally identify as blk but
>they aren't ethnically and will not be treated as such in
>society.

well first of all, what does "ethnically black" even mean? Black
is not an ethnicity. Also, Rachel was considered to be racially black - because in America - we consider a wide range of hues/skin tones/features to be within the parameters of "black". Further, If we're saying that it's even possible to culturally identify with being 'black' then that's an admission that it's a concept amenable to fluidity.

As for her "running back to her whiteness" - what experience do you have with being perceived as 'white', identifying w/ something else - and then 'running back to whiteness'? How do you know what that's like such that you are qualified to speak on that? And you say that they "will not be treated as black in society." Well, wasn't Rachel Dolezal treated as "black" until this morning?

>It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race
>when you're in a position of privilege and you are the
>majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can
>talk about fluidity.

Interestingly - this argument is never used in a trans-gender analysis. Meaning, I don't hear you (or others in this thread) saying things like: "it's easy to say we are being conventional about gender when you're in a position of privilege. When women are afforded equal rights in society then we will talk about gender fluidity."

Yet, women still aren't treated as equal and are subjected to patriarchal hierarchy and conventionalism, but that doesn't stop us from exercising a fluidity analysis as it pertains to gender.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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137. "RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

>>The problem with this woman is that she took
>>generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that
>>was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting.
>
>What was her definition?

um, really? look at her. look at how she chose to represent herself, braids, headwrap, going "natural."

>
>well first of all, what does "ethnically black" even mean?
>Black
>is not an ethnicity. Also, Rachel was considered to be
>racially black - because in America - we consider a wide range
>of hues/skin tones/features to be within the parameters of
>"black". Further, If we're saying that it's even possible to
>culturally identify with being 'black' then that's an
>admission that it's a concept amenable to fluidity.

Black IS an ethnicity, i don't know why you would think it wasn't. we have a shared experience that is unique to us. rachel was considered to be racially black because that's how she presented herself and that's what she told people she was. she darkened her skin, put in braids, headwraps, all physical dressings that are associated with (but not representative of all) blk women.you are confusing culture with ethnicity, they are two different things. my husband is culturally american (and blk american) but he is ethnically blk w/roots from the south. white folks are always trying to define what black is to black people.
>
>As for her "running back to her whiteness" - what experience
>do you have with being perceived as 'white', identifying w/
>something else - and then 'running back to whiteness'? How do
>you know what that's like such that you are qualified to speak
>on that? And you say that they "will not be treated as black
>in society." Well, wasn't Rachel Dolezal treated as "black"
>until this morning?
>
please don't act obtuse about this. you are seriously going to tell me that if she took off the black face she wouldn't be treated like a white woman? she was treated as blk BECAUSE SHE PRESENTED HERSELF THAT WAY. she's a pathological liar. she lied about her brother being her son. she made all kinds of crazy tweets making statements about being a blk woman and being discriminated against. that chick has mental health issues.

and yes, i AM qualified to speak on this as i know what it is to be a black woman. what seems to be ignored is that she is making a mockery of blk women.

>>It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race
>>when you're in a position of privilege and you are the
>>majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can
>>talk about fluidity.
>"
>
>Yet, women still aren't treated as equal and are subjected to
>patriarchal hierarchy and conventionalism, but that doesn't
>stop us from exercising a fluidity analysis as it pertains to
>gender.
>
>
transgender and transracial can no way be compared, and is in fact and insult to transgender people. to use my husband's example, if i were raised deserted island, i'd 1.still be a woman and 2. wouldn't be blk. that categorization is only true when i'm in a society of people that have chosen to define me that way because they see white as the default, when it can't be.

and we are going to have to agree to disagree because i still think white women are still have more privilege and power than blk men.

  

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Vex_id
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154. "we will have to agree to disagree on a number of issues"
In response to Reply # 137


          

which is fine...

but note: nobody is trying to tell people how they should feel or self-categorize, except perhaps a number of people in this post telling this woman Rachel how she should feel and how she should self-identity.

The irony is that those same people stand in defense of transgendered people to have the open, creative space to self-identity and feel the way they feel, but when it comes to race - it's an entirely different philosophical process.

It's an interesting discussion - and perhaps not yet ripe enough to be made sense of on a larger, societal scale.

-->

  

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GirlChild
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178. "Race and gender are two separate things. "
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

>which is fine...
>
>but note: nobody is trying to tell people how they should
>feel or self-categorize, except perhaps a number of people in
>this post telling this woman Rachel how she should feel and
>how she should self-identity.
>
>The irony is that those same people stand in defense of
>transgendered people to have the open, creative space to
>self-identity and feel the way they feel, but when it comes to
>race - it's an entirely different philosophical process.
>
>It's an interesting discussion - and perhaps not yet ripe
>enough to be made sense of on a larger, societal scale.
>
>-->

  

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Vex_id
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180. "for sure, but what distinguishes them from each other as "trans" theorie..."
In response to Reply # 178


          

guess we're back to square one.

-->

  

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MiracleRic
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9. "male privilege is fake now?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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spades
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11. "Well stated."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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16. "Not really."
In response to Reply # 11


          

A feminist could just as easily say (and have done so) that a man who identifies as a woman can "appropriate from further down the privilege pyramid, but they can't appropriate back upward".

  

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spades
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18. "and they'd be wrong, but we have evidence of the contrary."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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MiracleRic
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235. "what evidence is this?"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Binlahab
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15. "i reject in totality that Black ppl are "below" anybody"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

if you take from us, and we take from you...we still taking from you.

that right there...IS racism


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

  

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BigJazz
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38. "what are we able to take from them? "
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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spades
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17. "."
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Jun-12-15 01:02 PM by spades

  

          

.

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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Hitokiri
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33. "Iin a lot of ways, "transracial" is an extreme expression of white privi..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

because let a nigerian come over here, Didier Drogba his hair and dye it blonde and start telling people he's white.

People from all sides will quickly shoot him down in trying to reap the benefits of whiteness.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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denny
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35. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 33


          

All the more reason to have distinct language to shoot it down.

  

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legsdiamond
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42. "this^^^"
In response to Reply # 33


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Big Kuntry
Member since May 09th 2010
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45. "PREACH"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

  

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Teknontheou
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47. "I mean, I guess. But what about all the B/black people who "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

*have* passed? They were able to pass because they looked enough like white people to be able to do it, more than anyone granting them anything. I guess you could argue that that's a form of privilege, but it's not, really. I have family who could pass for Asian, if they really wanted to. Before the mid-20th century it was *not* a privilege to be Asian, though.

  

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StephBMore
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:37 PM

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278. "Most black ppl who have passed or do passed ARE part white..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

whatever that percentage is, they are part of white, so to claim one race and not the other isn't necessarily the same thing. And to that point, most ppl who passed were doing so to avoid hardships in life...this was prevalent during slave times and immediately
post-slavery. Currently very few people do this and those who do, do so to AVOID discrimination, not to use it as a platform to get more money.

  

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Vex_id
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62. "so you're invalidating the whole concept based on one scenario?"
In response to Reply # 33


          


-->

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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73. "You say that in contrast to how a transgendered woman is treated?"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>because let a nigerian come over here, Didier Drogba his hair
>and dye it blonde and start telling people he's white.
>
>People from all sides will quickly shoot him down in trying to
>reap the benefits of whiteness.

A 6'3" dude cuts off his johnson, gets boobs, starts wearing women clothes and tells people he is a woman won't people from MOST sides quickly shoot him in down in trying to reap the benefits of womanhood?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:31 PM

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124. "that same trans woman will also likely be taking hormone treatments"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

so they're going to develop a more female-aligned physiology, save for bottom surgery.

As of current, there's nothing science can do to change your ethnic/racial makeup at that deep of a level. Maybe one day.

  

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dafriquan
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142. "#actually"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          


>As of current, there's nothing science can do to change your
>ethnic/racial makeup at that deep of a level.

Give it some thought.

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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96. "High kicks! "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Airbreed
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254. "..aaaaaannnnd SEEN."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

.

  

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Wonderl33t
Member since Jul 11th 2002
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395. "or scene"
In response to Reply # 254


  

          


______________________________
http://i.imgur.com/81XSukd.jpg <-- Happy trails

  

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Case_One
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"He's RIGHT!"


          


.
.
.
"Romans 10 : 9 says, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved."

  

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Case_One
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39. "He's RIGHT!"
In response to Reply # 5


          


.
.
.
"Romans 10 : 9 says, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved."

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Fri Jun-12-15 01:03 PM

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20. "i get confused for conservative on this topic but i'm not"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i think if we are going to fight for identity as individually-defined in personal and emotional ways...it defeats the (already questionable) purpose of those divisions in the first place

one random small example...transgender MtF woman MMA fighter beat the living brakes off a genetic female woman and it was controversial as hell

that division has purpose and use...to make that division so malleable is problematic imho not bc i care that his genetic male wants to live life as a woman without having to actually face the female life choices that are closely tied to womanhood to some extent

i think both are problematic bc nobody seems capable of letting the divisions go...

i'm ok with the further deterioration (shit, im all for it) of gender roles...and possibly race related cultural traits as well but I think there are societal impacts that should be thought out with less #TEAMConservative and #TEAMProgressive and more balance, pragmatic, and a big-picture rather than an individualist and emotional ideas about how identity should be treated and it's purpose in our society in general

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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24. "Well there's this:"
In response to Reply # 20


          

It's entirely possible that our approach to sexual identity creates scenarios that are ripe for opportunism. (ie the UFC thing) More clearly, just because someone manipulated gender identity to their benefit does not mean that society will not be better off, as a whole, by seeing gender identity as fluid. I guess what I'm saying....a few particular situations and examples should not guide our worldview.

And sports, by their nature, are NEVER 'equal' anyways. Our genes and DNA pre-determine a large majority of it even when gender advantages are neutralized.

  

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Vex_id
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27. "That seems to be the crux of those who reject transgendered people:"
In response to Reply # 20


          


>i think both are problematic bc nobody seems capable of
>letting the divisions go...

The divisions make sense of the world for some people - and in their minds - they think that being 'male' loses meaning when a woman can simply choose to become male.

But is that person correct? I'd say no, they are trying to project their own experience of what it means to be 'male' as what the consensus opinion should be on what's male/masculine < always a recipe for disaster because of how wholly distinctive and individualistic each of us are.

>i'm ok with the further deterioration (shit, im all for it) of
>gender roles...and possibly race related cultural traits as
>well but I think there are societal impacts that should be
>thought out with less #TEAMConservative and #TEAMProgressive
>and more balance, pragmatic, and a big-picture rather than an
>individualist and emotional ideas about how identity should be
>treated and it's purpose in our society in general

Agreed - and it wasn't the best way to phrase the debate (as being conservatism versus progressivism) as that's a duality polarization in itself. However, I do find it interesting when progressives apply wholly different philosophical processes when embracing transgendered rights on one-hand, and flatly rejecting transracial theory on the other.

-->

  

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Frobert
Member since Nov 03rd 2003
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Fri Jun-12-15 01:04 PM

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21. "A lot of these ambiguities spring up because..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 01:14 PM by Frobert

  

          

..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
We use race as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
for when we don't. See also the black vs Black dustups here.
That said, if someone wants to identify as black, and they
can get everybody else to view them as black (because
arguably the distinguishing feature of being black in this
country is that everybody else sees you as black), then
it's fine with me. It's not like race is some sacred,
super-scientific designation.

I think in this recent case though, the issue is that
non-crazy people don't tend to do this sort of stuff.

  

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Vex_id
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25. "Yes, I think this is a great point."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>We use race is as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
>for when we don't. See also the black vs Black dustups here.
>That said, if someone wants to identify as black, and they
>can get everybody else to view them as black (because
>arguably the distinguishing feature of being black in this
>country is that everybody else sees you as black), then
>it's fine with me. It's not like race is some sacred,
>super-scientific designation.

Right - in fact, how we presently apply "race" via societal census
is decisively unscientific.

>I think in this recent case though, the issue is that
>non-crazy people don't tend to do this sort of stuff.

lol


-->

  

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Hitokiri
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36. "good post."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

nm

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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akon
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43. "the black/Black dustups actually make sense in this scenario"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
that is a consequence and result of having lived in a different society
from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand what black as an identity means
(shit, im dinka. there's tribe. that is an embrace of a culture and lineage that the B, who no longer has that
says, well we got a culture and lineage too that we want to distinguish from others
i think that's valid. its not an individualistic claim. its a communal claim.
much like tribe is communal.

>..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>We use race as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
>for when we don't.

exactly. in this country it is a proxy for a shared identity - much like we use tribe as a proxy for a shared identity
even when its skin deep. but even within that there are a multitude of sub-communities
black-geechee, black creole or whatever else
and whatever the white equivalent is
so it even ends up not being necessarily skin deep

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Frobert
Member since Nov 03rd 2003
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104. "I wonder what would happen if the idea of race was erased..."
In response to Reply # 43
Fri Jun-12-15 07:13 PM by Frobert

  

          

...and instead everybody in this country saw each other in
terms of specific ethnic tribes.

Would black tribes and Black tribes still fuck with each other?
Would white tribes and White tribes still fuck with each other?
Would tribalism be as bad as racism?
Or would history repeat itself because for this country race is inevitable?

  

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Vex_id
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106. "right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'"
In response to Reply # 43
Fri Jun-12-15 07:16 PM by Vex_id

          

>
>with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
>that is a consequence and result of having lived in a
>different society
>from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand what
>black as an identity means

black in that regard is more of a cultural identifier than a racial one - which is why people like Rachel Dolezal claim association with that cultural identity - whether people deem it legitimate or not. Still, she likely has more familiarity with that identity than a continental african - whom by your own words, "actually doesn't understand what black as an identity means."

-->

  

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40thStreetBlack
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263. "RE: right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'"
In response to Reply # 106


          

>>
>>with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
>>that is a consequence and result of having lived in a
>>different society
>>from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand
>what
>>black as an identity means
>
>black in that regard is more of a cultural identifier than a
>racial one - which is why people like Rachel Dolezal claim
>association with that cultural identity - whether people deem
>it legitimate or not.

it is both a cultural identifier and a racial one. Dolezal claimed associatiton with both.


Still, she likely has more familiarity
>with that identity than a continental african - whom by your
>own words, "actually doesn't understand what black as an
>identity means."

in an academic sense perhaps. but she claimed it as a racial identity as well, which she does not, and can not, have more familiarity with.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Jun-12-15 02:18 PM

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48. "And this is exactly the struggle transgender people are fighting "
In response to Reply # 21
Fri Jun-12-15 02:20 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

>That said, if someone wants to identify as A WOMAN, and they
>can get everybody else to view them as A WOMAN (because
>arguably the distinguishing feature of being A WOMAN in this
>country is that everybody else sees you as A WOMAN), then
>it's fine with me. It's not like GENDER is some sacred,
>super-scientific designation.

They want to be identified as a woman or man just like a transracial person (this is going to be a thing by the end of the day lol) wants to be identified as black, white, whatever.

A major fight is over how they are recognized

_______________________________________

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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100. "this is pretty much what i came in to post"
In response to Reply # 21


          

race is an artificial and unscientific construct. gender is not.

end of story.

d

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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236. "nah...sloppy science is used for both"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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csuave03
Member since May 20th 2007
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238. "it could be argued that gender is but sex isn't"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

I guess that's why this is such a slippery slope argument

If someone says that they are missing an x chromosome that sounds very similar to someone saying that they are missing a certain amount of melanin

Free love y'all

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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26. "The people comparing these two are either white or transphobic."
In response to Reply # 0


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Mafamaticks
Member since Jan 12th 2004
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Fri Jun-12-15 01:22 PM

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30. "One is culture and the other is biological"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

besides skin color, there aren't any identifying traits that make someone black.

Considering humans all start off as female in the womb, there are legitimate arguments about the biological aspects of transgender folks.

Transrace people aren't born that way and won't be.

Transrace is where I turn into a bigot.

If I have to identify which Ron I'm talking about at work, I'm not going to call Ron "transracial Ron." No nigga it's white Ron, not the black Ron.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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76. "I am pretty sure you can't distinguish fetuses by race. "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>besides skin color, there aren't any identifying traits that
>make someone black.
>
>Considering humans all start off as female in the womb, there
>are legitimate arguments about the biological aspects of
>transgender folks.

Like sex, I am pretty sure all fetuses are indinstinguishably by race early in their development and develop racial characteristics later in development.

>
>Transrace people aren't born that way and won't be.
>
>Transrace is where I turn into a bigot.
>
>If I have to identify which Ron I'm talking about at work, I'm
>not going to call Ron "transracial Ron." No nigga it's white
>Ron, not the black Ron.

I am going to say usetabe white Ron.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Big Kuntry
Member since May 09th 2010
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46. "What would be gender dysphoria for transrace?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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akon
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49. "the japanese b-stylers"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

are we calling this transrace? as an example
because this to me is imitation (and perhaps the best form of flattery)
but in no way shape or form would i consider this some sort of transracial identity
for numerous reasons, one being that its based on a conception of what 'african american' is, that is divorced from the
every day reality of what being black in america is/may be

http://www.vice.com/read/b-style-japan-desir-van-den-berg-photos

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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50. "Apparently they have theme parks"
In response to Reply # 49


          

designed to look like American ghettos.

I remember there was a white hip hop group called 'Young Black Teenagers'. When asked in an interview about their name....they responded 'Being black is a state of mind'.

  

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akon
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51. "sad face"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

'Being black is a state of mind'.

yet another way to minimize the black experience

aka levels of priviledge

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Teknontheou
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52. "Jamal, talk white! (c) Kid in House Party 2"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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54. "oh shit"
In response to Reply # 52
Fri Jun-12-15 02:56 PM by denny

          

I din't know that was actually him. He's the same guy that said 'Being black is a state of mind' in the interveiw I saw.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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53. "That girl, Hina, tho.....?"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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akon
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55. "sans or with tan?"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sun Jun-14-15 08:37 AM

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195. "I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures"
In response to Reply # 49
Sun Jun-14-15 08:39 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

The Japanese do not have white supremacy, slavery, or Jim Crow in their history. Anything they accept as black will be viewed from a completely different angle and be completely devoid of the things that charge the issue here in the U.S.

Also darkening skin or teeth has been a thing in their culture for many years and in some cases centuries.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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40thStreetBlack
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227. "RE: I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures"
In response to Reply # 195


          

>The Japanese do not have white supremacy, slavery, or Jim
>Crow in their history. Anything they accept as black will be
>viewed from a completely different angle and be completely
>devoid of the things that charge the issue here in the U.S.

it won't be completely devoid of those things, it will just be seen through the lens of what they get from portrayals in media//pop culture. which is generally not a good portrayal.

>Also darkening skin or teeth has been a thing in their culture
>for many years and in some cases centuries.

darkening their skin? japanese women have been lightening/avoiding the darkening of their skin for centuries.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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56. "alright, IF...IF we were to take this goofy ass argument for real..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

then i bet the farm that no one would be able to successfully go/claim/become white

and no

im not pointing out whiteness on some "the whitemans ice is colder" shit

im talking about it purely from a social benefits standpoint

they would not give that shit up. it would never be granted.

no model minority asian would be allowed in. ever.


***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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57. "True."
In response to Reply # 56
Fri Jun-12-15 03:08 PM by denny

          

But a society might choose to not acknowledge a trans person's identity as well. The whole point is that we're trying to encourage society to do so. So the counter argument would be 'Then we need to convince society to see these transrace black/asian people as white out of respect for their identity' (just like we need to convince society to see Caitlyn Jenner as a woman).

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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58. "Find someone 50 years ago...."
In response to Reply # 56
Fri Jun-12-15 03:16 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

Tell them that it will be commonplace and widely accepted to refer to a man as 'she'.
We don't know what kind of world we will be living in in the future.

_______________________________________

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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60. "yes but, the act of gender bending has been around forever. "
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

for example


i mean....shit, im trying to see the future with todays eyes and i cant see it

i wont be an angry denier because if this picks up steam then i will have to go with it

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Jun-12-15 03:21 PM

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61. "What if this was our out?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 03:22 PM by denny

          

There's a cognitive dissonance here. We want people to be able to define themselves.....but we don't want someone like Chet Haze taking advantage of our framework by claiming victim status for an identity that he does not (by our perception) 'truly' identify with.

So why don't we sacrifice the rule that we HAVE to take people at their word?

If a trans person stands to gain something tangible (ie they are a 'born male' who wants to compete in ladies basketball) then it's OK if we question their motives? If a white person wants to identify that they're black because they romanticize a perceived victim-status in doing so....then it's OK if we question them.

Perhaps the problem is that we didn't leave room to call people out when we think they are manipulating our framework. I can't see any tangible reason why Caitlyn Jenner would proclaim a new identity other than that she genuinely feels that way. So I have no reason to question her sincerity. But that doesn't have to be the case. We should feel free to call bullshit when we see it.

  

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Vex_id
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63. "sure, but it's very arbitrary as to when people legitimize identity. "
In response to Reply # 61


          

the reason I made this post is because I think it's interesting when people are accepting of one's identity in one instance, but wholly judgmental in another instance.

This is a fascinating topic because it challenges people's philosophical foundations on social identity.


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Vex_id
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64. "sidenote: notice how we champion self-identity in one instance..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 03:48 PM by Vex_id

          

meaning - many tend to recognize the autonomy and sovereignty of an individual when it comes to expressing their gender/sex fluidity. If they want to identity as bi/gay/trans - we tend to say "it is their right to identify as they choose and identify with whatever resonates w/ them most" < and this is the appropriate, tolerant course of action.

But when it comes to race - it's far more sticky to most. We (we being general society) don't necessarily seem to want to afford that same autonomy and creative space to self-identity - because of a lot of strong personal beliefs and rigid definitions on what "race" means and how it functions in society.

Interestingly, we still hold on to and deem as legitimate the concept of "race" as it was constructed hundreds of years ago. We have challenged conventional norms of "beauty" - and now "gender" - but when it comes to "race" - we are still very rigid and conventional - and that likely has to do with it being arguably the most polarizing facet of american society.

But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?

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Bluebear
Member since Apr 06th 2003
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Fri Jun-12-15 03:53 PM

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66. "because it's largely unnecessary"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

While folks may get the side eye for claiming to be a different race than they appear to be, they're often free to adopt or embrace almost all of the cultural aspects of the race without much blowback. I think gender is different in that there are greater reprcussions for attempting to adopt gender non-conforming attributes.

  

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Vex_id
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68. "RE: because it's largely unnecessary"
In response to Reply # 66


          

>While folks may get the side eye for claiming to be a
>different race than they appear to be, they're often free to
>adopt or embrace almost all of the cultural aspects of the
>race without much blowback.

Sure - and a transgendered person (born male) who chooses to identify as "female" can
embrace all the cultural aspects of femininity and gender without much blowback, also.

So what?

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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70. "Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 64


          


>But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate
>and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever
>an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's
>impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?

Answer: it's acceptable when we have reason to believe that they are lying.

So tolerating and accepting a person's right to self-identity does not have to be a hard and fast principle. There can be room for us to acknowledge when an individual attempts to manipulate the framework. Might that lead us into sometimes denying an identity to someone who genuinely deserves it? Perhaps. But there's no policy we can follow that isn't gonna be messy.

I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine in not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and respect. People lie sometimes.

  

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Vex_id
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71. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 70


          

>
>>But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate
>>and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever
>>an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's
>>impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?
>
>Answer: it's acceptable when we have reason to believe that
>they are lying.

that's messy. Who is the qualified arbiter equipped to determine if somebody is 'lying' about their gender/race self-identification?

>I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however
>they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a
>black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in
>identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine in
>not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and
>respect. People lie sometimes.

This is kinda an over-reach to make a point. When has Chet Haze ever
insisted that people refer to him as a black man?


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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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74. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 71


          

>
>that's messy. Who is the qualified arbiter equipped to
>determine if somebody is 'lying' about their gender/race
>self-identification

Just as their identity belongs to them....my perception belongs to me. So that makes me the arbiter. If I'm wrong...they still have their identity and I have my wrong perception. I perceive Caitlyn Jenner to be a woman but it needn't HAVE to be that way.




>>I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however
>>they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a
>>black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in
>>identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine
>in
>>not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and
>>respect. People lie sometimes.
>
>This is kinda an over-reach to make a point. When has Chet
>Haze ever
>insisted that people refer to him as a black man?
>

Isn't that what we're talking about? A transrace person? Forget I mentioned Chet Haze then. A white dude who says he identifies as a black male.


  

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Vex_id
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75. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 74


          


>Just as their identity belongs to them....my perception
>belongs to me. So that makes me the arbiter. If I'm
>wrong...they still have their identity and I have my wrong
>perception. I perceive Caitlyn Jenner to be a woman but it
>needn't HAVE to be that way.

Sure - that's fine, as long as we're not saying that equal rights under the law is contingent upon the whims and subjectivity of a person's personal prejudices.

In other words - should Caitlyn Jenner be allowed to identify as a woman, under the law? Or should we hold some type of special court to adjudicate whether or not we will allow Caitlyn to be identified as "female" on her driver's license, based on whether we think she's lying or not?


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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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79. "Yah....I anticipated that."
In response to Reply # 75


          

And that is certainly problematic. I'm not sure how the law should work and it's relevant to things like status benefits and such.

  

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now or never
Member since Oct 27th 2004
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Fri Jun-12-15 03:59 PM

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67. "you can feel like a woman. feeling black doesn't exist without societal ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

assuming that's the reason someone would want to identify as transracial
transgender people from what I understand (admittedly very little) identify as such because of their inner feelings of masculinity/femininity/attractions so on
but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race internally
what is that?
how does someone feel black without any societal context that identifies them as such?
if it's based on the things they identify with culturally (like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.
or if it is, i can't wrap my head around it.

-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Vex_id
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69. "why is that left up to you adjudicate and understand?"
In response to Reply # 67


          


>but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race
>internally
>what is that?
>how does someone feel black without any societal context that
>identifies them as such?

How does someone feel male/female without any societal context that identifies them as such?

It's not necessary that you understand how somebody might wake up and "feel like a woman" - most people accept that person's right to feel that way and afford them to creative space to self-identify.

Why is your comprehension necessary in order to validate somebody who feels like their census report "race" categorization isn't sufficient to identify them.

>if it's based on the things they identify with culturally
>(like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't
>require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
>so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.

I think what's confusing about this topic is that we still don't really have a strong sense of what "race" is - likely because it's a flimsy construct that is wholly limited, which is why "transracial" theory even developed in the first place.




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now or never
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81. "i'm not saying its up to me, i just want to understand how it works."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

if we're gonna make the transgender/transracial comparison
one i can wrap my head around (albeit a little bit)
because i can understand a person feeling femininity while existing in a body that we identify as male
or vice versa
however it's been described to me, it usually involves some iteration of feeling born in a body that they would like to alter

the other idea of being born in a race that isn't correct or wanting to change race i don't understand because i don't know what its based on
is it a feeling that the person should have been born a different race and that person spends their life knowing they should have been asian/white/black/italian whatever?
is there some inherent discomfort that plagues them that drives them to attempt to change their race?
is there such thing as changing your race (i.e. racial reconstructive surgery)?
i'm not trying to get anyone to prove or validate anything to me personally
i'm just trying to understand the parallel of transgender and transracial
if there is one

-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Vex_id
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113. "it's obviously something emerging as an entry to a larger discussion"
In response to Reply # 81
Fri Jun-12-15 08:07 PM by Vex_id

          

There was a time when people were similarly flabbergasted about the notion of transgender, and wondered how it worked, what it looked like, how they could ever make any kind of sense of it, etc...

>the other idea of being born in a race that isn't correct or
>wanting to change race i don't understand because i don't know
>what its based on
>is it a feeling that the person should have been born a
>different race and that person spends their life knowing they
>should have been asian/white/black/italian whatever?
>is there some inherent discomfort that plagues them that
>drives them to attempt to change their race?
>is there such thing as changing your race (i.e. racial
>reconstructive surgery)?
>i'm not trying to get anyone to prove or validate anything to
>me personally
>i'm just trying to understand the parallel of transgender and
>transracial
>if there is one

All valid questions - and a larger discussion should be had on this. Where we have traditionally encountered the concept of 'transrace' is with somebody like Tiger Woods, who chooses to identify with a certain percentage of his ethnic makeup moreso than other percentages. This is something that so called "interracial" people experience all of the time, and they often choose to identify with what's easiest and most accepted by general society.

But when they don't accept what's easiest and most accepted by general society, there is an immediate rush to judgment and an incredulous tone. However, what makes this discussion interesting is that we all (well, most of us) accept that race is an illusory construct, as such, it's a malleable concept that evolves as cultural norms do. The parallel is that we often refer to race as skin-tone as we do gender to sexual equipment/genitalia -- but just as that sexual equipment sometimes doesn't accurately reflect who the person feels like they are possessing that sexual equipment, a particular skin-tone (identified as 'race') may not accurately reflect who that particular person feels that they are. Why would people feel like this? Perhaps because the human lineage dates back thousands and thousands of years whereby our DNA is literally comprised of a myriad of ethnicities and "races" - such that the notion of identifying just as one becomes wholly limiting for some people.


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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77. "I think yall are wrong saying gender doesn't involve societal context "
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

That's been repeated throughout this thread. It's just not true.

Sexual attraction may not need societal context but transgender ism is not the same as homosexuality.

Expression of transgender absolutely involves societal context. The transgenderism of Brazil is expressed very different from the transgendered of San Francisco or Thailand.



>assuming that's the reason someone would want to identify as
>transracial
>transgender people from what I understand (admittedly very
>little) identify as such because of their inner feelings of
>masculinity/femininity/attractions so on
>but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race
>internally
>what is that?
>how does someone feel black without any societal context that
>identifies them as such?
>if it's based on the things they identify with culturally
>(like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't
>require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
>so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.
>or if it is, i can't wrap my head around it.
>
>-----
>No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
>American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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now or never
Member since Oct 27th 2004
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83. "fair enough."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          



-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Jon
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95. "There's no way of ever knowing that what you're feeling is woman"
In response to Reply # 67


          

if your chromosomes made you a male.

  

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dEs
Member since Sep 01st 2006
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:46 AM

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140. "right. trans is something that can be apparent during childhood"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

it's independent of any external influences


many trans people express from a young age that they don't fit into gender norms


for example: (1:35 mark)

a trans woman describes how, as a young boy in first grade, she would express herself as a girl
http://1drv.ms/1QUhrJR


so called "trans race," which is really cultural affinity, is
entirely dependent on your surroundings. no white child is born
with something inside of them that makes them feel "Black"

_____

shann.email/inbox.pls.

  

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Goldmind
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82. "Who are these people who consider themselves transracial? "
In response to Reply # 0


          

I think some examples are in order.


  

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akon
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92. "I've asked"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

And still waiting for examples and how they define this
If it's black what does that mean exactly

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Goldmind
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122. "I think it's telling that they won't speak in specifics"
In response to Reply # 92


          

The argument here seems to be based purely on vague hypothetical scenarios and, as you may notice, is only being advanced by heterosexual men. It's like they are frantically looking for a "Gotcha!" moment to hold over LGBT folks' heads. I'm a let them keep looking lol.

  

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Vex_id
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129. "The reason there aren't specifics is because it's a new concept."
In response to Reply # 122


          

once upon a time there was no such thing as a transgendered person
walking around. People are using everyone from Tom Hanks' son, to this
NAACP woman, to Tiger Woods in this post to make varying points about
'transrace' - but it's a theoretical discussion - of course hypotheticals are
being discussed.

>The argument here seems to be based purely on vague
>hypothetical scenarios and, as you may notice, is only being
>advanced by heterosexual men. It's like they are frantically
>looking for a "Gotcha!" moment to hold over LGBT folks' heads.
>I'm a let them keep looking lol.

not sure how that 'gotcha!' moment would work for me as a heterosexual
male, because I have nothing to hold over LGBT folks' heads except
their constitutional, human, and universal rights.



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Goldmind
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250. "Our specific example is Rachel"
In response to Reply # 129
Mon Jun-15-15 11:04 AM by Goldmind

          

Although you're trying to isolate the discussion, we can't escape the fact that the only reason we're talking about transrace is because it's being wielded in defense of Rachel, whose story is being compared to that of transgender people. That comparison is most often an act of bigotry, meant to belittle the lives of real, breathing transgender men and women rather than to uplift transracial people, whom you admit only exist to you theoretically.

>once upon a time there was no such thing as a transgendered
>person
>walking around. People are using everyone from Tom Hanks'
>son, to this
>NAACP woman, to Tiger Woods in this post to make varying
>points about
>'transrace' - but it's a theoretical discussion - of course
>hypotheticals are
>being discussed.

But there have always been people who fit the characteristics of transgender people. Transracialism has been a recognized thing for a while, but not in the way that you are defining it. I think that when you look at the specific cases of people who adopt transracial identities, it becomes more evident the ways in which race and gender, although both social constructs, operate differently.

>not sure how that 'gotcha!' moment would work for me as a
>heterosexual
>male, because I have nothing to hold over LGBT folks' heads
>except
>their constitutional, human, and universal rights.

I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place, but in this post, the people on your side are hetero men who have previously expressed negative attitudes toward transgender identity; men who I think are opportunistically looking to strike back against the marginalized people who've challenged them in the past. Their participation, and the context in which it has arisen, makes it hard to trust the sincerity of this discussion.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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84. "My question is why are people trying so hard to distinguish the two?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 05:09 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

Can we all admit that all the reasons listed here and in other place are really really weak and unconvincing? I mean don't ppl feel that little knot in your stomach telling you that you sound just like all those people who tried to make arguments against transgenderism?



I think the transgendered community is doing themselves a huge disservice and are being super short sighted working so hard to distinguish the two.

It comes off as if their arguments for the right to self-identify are completely self-serving and an argument of convenience.

My only issue with the concept of transrace is the idea of white folks taking advantage of programs that are set aside for minorities. Other than that why does anyone really give a fuk?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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85. "This is the most fascinating part of this conversation to me:"
In response to Reply # 84


          

>Can we all admit that all the reasons listed here and in
>other place are really really weak and unconvincing? I mean
>don't feel that little not in your stomach telling you that
>you sound just like all those people who tried to make
>arguments against transgenderism?

A lot of people in here who fancy themselves progressives would sound like outright GOP evangelical bigots if their transrace analysis were framed in the context of transgender.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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87. "It just proves my theory that all ppl are self-ish and self-serving"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Teknontheou
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88. "I'm seeing a ton of pushback from black and white people on the internet"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last week.

The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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91. "Well I am talking about a very specific group, Pro-transgendered and ant..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

-transracial.

People who fall into that group are the ones who I think are clearly hypocritical.

It's not surprising people who are anti-transgendered are also anti-transracial.

It's also not surprising to me that Black people are supportive of her because it seems the woman had a track record that spoke to her commitment to racial issues. She doesn't come off as opportunistic like say an azelia banks.


>against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate
>situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are
>basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have
>predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last
>week.
>
>The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace
>is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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105. "lol right."
In response to Reply # 88


          

>against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate
>situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are
>basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have
>predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last
>week.
>
>The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace
>is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.


-->

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 04:59 PM

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86. "one deals with gender, one deals with skin color"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 05:00 PM by initiationofplato

          

this is easy. over complicating it makes it boring and stressful.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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97. "The argument (that we're trying to dismantle)"
In response to Reply # 86


          

is that if race can be defined as skin colour than gender can be defined by genitals.

We don't want gender to be defined as genitals. So we need to show how race is somehow different from gender.

  

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initiationofplato
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108. "don't dismantle it, simply ignore it"
In response to Reply # 97


          

i know you are open minded and have LIVED, so, i know you won't let something like someone's definition of race of gender bother you, so why even engage? its a waste of time b.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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114. "I don't think it's a waste of time."
In response to Reply # 108
Fri Jun-12-15 07:52 PM by denny

          

My high school did not have ONE out gay person. My step-daughter attends that high school currently.....there are somewhere close to 100 out gay people there now. They have a school-sanctioned LGBT club there now. It's a beautiful thing. My gym teacher used to call students faggots.

Things have changed DRASTICALLY because of discourse. So it's not a waste of time to refine our discourse in the attempts to persuade more people to be tolerant and respectful. When an argument surfaces that questions our discourse....we need to find a way to address it. Lest we stop changing hearts and minds.

  

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initiationofplato
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115. "i agree with that, however"
In response to Reply # 114


          

to me it just seems like there will always be a group of people that are naysayers to any idea. i'm telling you bro, if jesus/god himself climbed down from heaven and laid down the law, if there is any such thing, there would be a group of people that would disagree, give it a term, and than argue about it, lol. in my opinion, if you have a good heart, that is full of love, acceptance, and guidance for the young'uns in your immediate circle, that is more than enough to change the world.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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RS
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89. "transgender folks are normal & transrace"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Folks are certifiable and racist. Pass.

  

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SimplyHannah
Member since Aug 09th 2009
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90. "Whatever someone wants to identify as....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Out of respect, I'll refer to them as that, even if I don't necessarily subscribe to it.


I was trying to grasp an understanding of this comparison on Twitter and from what I heard, some transgenders and transgender allies are saying that genetics(chromosomes) determine your biological sex (male or female) while gender is a societal construct that is "learned". So you can be biologically male or female, but can choose to identify with whatever gender you feel closest to because these are taught and learned behaviors.

Idk, some mind fuck shit that I don't have the time or patience for.

  

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2.tears.in.a.bucket
Member since Sep 04th 2009
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Fri Jun-12-15 05:56 PM

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93. "being black stymies ANY exploratory process. off rip."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 06:19 PM by 2.tears.in.a.bucket

  

          

wanna explore? see the world! climb mt. kilimanjaro? train-hop all around this great nation w/o incident?

nigga we can't even get in a funky-ass pool...

a white transgender is still going to be more readily welcomed most anywhere.

(for the record i support anybody's desire to do anything other than prey on children. i even support my opinion not mattering)

so i guess the answer is they don't fuck with us @ all?

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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94. "One is real and one is racist..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 06:09 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

Transracial ends up looking like this

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png

I'll put what I put in the other post...

Transracial Its not a thing...
People are using transracial to delegitimizatize transmen and women. It's akin to the "you want to change one social rule, the why just not take away all rules then" argument. Is there legitimate transracial movement, activism, community groups or any of the things that would mean there is a real group of people that identify this way? No... Are there white folks out there talking about they felt that they were black when they were born and craved whiting when their teeth came in but were only served flounder by their white parents who didn't understand. No...
There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white woman staging hate crimes though.
I'm surprised people are taking it seriously. The only people entertaining this are people who didn't fully grasp transgenderism and now want to spread their misunderstanding to other shit they don't understand.

I'll also add that the social stigma around being a transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.

The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking acceptance and what they gain from others.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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98. "I think everyone agrees with you."
In response to Reply # 94


          

But we're looking for a way of using language to differentiate between transex and transrace instead of just making accusations (however justified).

Don't you agree that we'd be better served with a discourse that shows why transrace is illegitimate?

  

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legsdiamond
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101. "Nope. Its the same damn thing"
In response to Reply # 94


          

>Transracial ends up looking like this
>
>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png
>

Transgendered ends up looking like this

http://cdn04.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-new-vanity-fair-video.jpg

You find transracial offensive yet cant understand why others find transgendered offensive.

Its hypocritical IMO.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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102. "Total utter self-serving bullshit. One is a thing and the other is not ..."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

people decided one is a thing and the other is not. But look at history so many things were not things, until people decided they were things.

Transgenderism wasn't a thing. Homosexuality and Lesbianism were not things (both terms are less than a couple of hundred years old).


>Transracial ends up looking like this
>
>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png


And transgenderism ends up looking like this:

https://loft965.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dragraceleak.png

mainstreams depiction of either isn't what defines them.


>
>I'll put what I put in the other post...
>
>Transracial Its not a thing...
>People are using transracial to delegitimizatize transmen and
>women. It's akin to the "you want to change one social rule,
>the why just not take away all rules then" argument. Is there
>legitimate transracial movement, activism, community groups or
>any of the things that would mean there is a real group of
>people that identify this way? No... Are there white folks out
>there talking about they felt that they were black when they
>were born and craved whiting when their teeth came in but were
>only served flounder by their white parents who didn't
>understand. No...


Now I totally agree with you that folks are seizing on this too legitimize transgenderism. It is no coincidence that that woman's story is all over the news and peoples facebook streams.

But exploiting the issue doesn't make it less and issue and the opportunism of people on the issue doesn't undermine the logical and moral inconsitency of people supporting one form of self-identification and self-presenting and attempting to negate another form.

And you mock it (like GOP mocks LGBT) bu there have always been people passing and people who identifying with a race other than there own.

>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white
>woman staging hate crimes though.

And why do you think the woman was staging hate crimes? Because the police doubted her story? Weird intersection going on there because people ususally jump all other the police for treating a woman's claim of sexual harrasment so suspiciously. Because it's racial harrasment people have no problem dismissing her claims with little evidence based on police doubt.


>I'm surprised people are taking it seriously. The only people
>entertaining this are people who didn't fully grasp
>transgenderism and now want to spread their misunderstanding
>to other shit they don't understand.
>
>I'll also add that the social stigma around being a
>transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really
>isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as
>trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.
>
>The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking
>for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is
>less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking
>acceptance and what they gain from others.


Mayne y'all sound like Bill O'Reily talking about how there is there is this great benefit to identifying and presenting as african-american. Seriously, who else argues how being black is better than white in american other than white conservative shock jocks?


Folks should just admit that it's a value judgement. One I consider to be a thing and the other I don't consider to be a thing just because I am cool with one and not the other rather than going into all these contortions trying to craft a logic or moral argument around it.



>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:18 PM

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107. "Yup.. I was late as fuck on your angle but you are killing it on this is..."
In response to Reply # 102


          

Its amazing how quickly someine can go from MSNBC to FOXNEWS and not even know it.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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111. "Please, you read Ms. Jenners 5 page article "
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

and now you think you know enough about transgender people to contrast and compare their experience to someone else's....
Please stop.



___________________________________________________________


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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126. "Haven't read it yet. I guess you didn't notice that my position isn't"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

based on being the arbiter deciding whose self-identification is valid and whose invalid.

My position is based on the simple position, live and let live.

When that is your position you don't need to know jack about what it means to be transgendered to decide if it ain't hurting me let them rock. The same goes for the transracial.

I'd a thought live and let live would have been a guiding principle behind the transgendered movement but an element of that movement is revealing it's true self and showing that isn't the case.




>and now you think you know enough about transgender people
>to contrast and compare their experience to someone else's....
>
>Please stop.
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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109. "lol wow. "
In response to Reply # 94


          

This issue has brought out a previously unearthed bigotry that is fascinating to observe unveil itself.

>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white
>woman staging hate crimes though.

lol. This is like saying, 'well there's this transgendered dude who likes to rape women and this other woman who sells meth but thinks she's a man" - and citing those two examples as your reasoning as to why you think transgendered identity is illegitimate. lol c'mon.

>I'll also add that the social stigma around being a
>transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really
>isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as
>trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.

>The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking
>for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is
>less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking
>acceptance and what they gain from others.

yikes. We're now telling people how they should feel and judging their own feelings?

This is a very familiar tactic: try to marginalize a group - as many people do w/ transgendered people - by positing a singular example of a troubled transgendered person to widely dismiss the entire concept.

Problem is - it never works. It's just a poor camouflage to mask bigotry and an unwillingness to accept a particular group.

-->

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:53 PM

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116. "White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long"
In response to Reply # 109
Fri Jun-12-15 07:56 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

The history is there and these people are not acting without historical context. If anything they are acting purely out of a historical context of white privilege.
It's not about "being who you really are" It's about possession...of the black body and all the gross stereotypes that come with it that they desire.

Those who can enjoy blackness, participate in it are fine by me. Culture is meant to be shared... but for some people participation is not enough. Blackness must be bought and owned and benefited from like one of a million commodities.
Transracial is just a new way to soften the language of an age old obsession with black folks mixed with never ending need for ownership of black bodies.

___________________________________________________________


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Vex_id
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117. "predictably, you want to make this about you."
In response to Reply # 116


          

Just as an evangelical wants to make transgendered identity and gay marriage about *them* and their conventional notion of what gender/marriage means, you are looking at the concept of transrace under a narrow lens whereby only your understanding of race is the legitimate one.

It's childish.

-->

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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118. "k"
In response to Reply # 117
Fri Jun-12-15 08:06 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

We don't have to agree but calling me childish ain't gon clap.

End convo.
___________________________________________________________


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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128. "How does all you just said, not apply to transgendered?"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

I mean the argument you made against the trans-racial is exactly the same argument that Elinor Burkett's NYT Op-Ed critique of Caitlyn Jenner and transgenderism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0

Pertinent part below:

People who haven’t lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn’t get to define us. That’s something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman.

Their truth is not my truth. Their female identities are not my female identity. They haven’t traveled through the world as women and been shaped by all that this entails. They haven’t suffered through business meetings with men talking to their breasts or woken up after sex terrified they’d forgotten to take their birth control pills the day before. They haven’t had to cope with the onset of their periods in the middle of a crowded subway, the humiliation of discovering that their male work partners’ checks were far larger than theirs, or the fear of being too weak to ward off rapists....

THE drip, drip, drip of Ms. Jenner’s experience included a hefty dose of male privilege few women could possibly imagine. While young “Bruiser,” as Bruce Jenner was called as a child, was being cheered on toward a university athletic scholarship, few female athletes could dare hope for such largess since universities offered little funding for women’s sports. When Mr. Jenner looked for a job to support himself during his training for the 1976 Olympics, he didn’t have to turn to the meager “Help Wanted – Female” ads in the newspapers, and he could get by on the $9,000 he earned annually, unlike young women whose median pay was little more than half that of men. Tall and strong, he never had to figure out how to walk streets safely at night.

Those are realities that shape women’s brains.

By defining womanhood the way he did to Ms. Sawyer, Mr. Jenner and the many advocates for transgender rights who take a similar tack ignore those realities. In the process, they undermine almost a century of hard-fought arguments that the very definition of female is a social construct that has subordinated us. And they undercut our efforts to change the circumstances we grew up with.

The “I was born in the wrong body” rhetoric favored by other trans people doesn’t work any better and is just as offensive, reducing us to our collective breasts and vaginas. Imagine the reaction if a young white man suddenly declared that he was trapped in the wrong body and, after using chemicals to change his skin pigmentation and crocheting his hair into twists, expected to be embraced by the black community.

Many women I know, of all ages and races, speak privately about how insulting we find the language trans activists use to explain themselves. After Mr. Jenner talked about his brain, one friend called it an outrage and asked in exasperation, “Is he saying that he’s bad at math, weeps during bad movies and is hard-wired for empathy?” After the release of the Vanity Fair photos of Ms. Jenner, Susan Ager, a Michigan journalist, wrote on her Facebook page, “I fully support Caitlyn Jenner, but I wish she hadn’t chosen to come out as a sex babe.”



RE: White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long
>The history is there and these people are not acting without
>historical context. If anything they are acting purely out of
>a historical context of white privilege.
>It's not about "being who you really are" It's about
>possession...of the black body and all the gross stereotypes
>that come with it that they desire.
>
>Those who can enjoy blackness, participate in it are fine by
>me. Culture is meant to be shared... but for some people
>participation is not enough. Blackness must be bought and
>owned and benefited from like one of a million commodities.
>Transracial is just a new way to soften the language of an age
>old obsession with black folks mixed with never ending need
>for ownership of black bodies.
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:32 PM

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130. "I agree with all that."
In response to Reply # 116
Fri Jun-12-15 09:43 PM by denny

          

If there is a legitimate case of a person who is transrace.....I can't conceive of it as of yet. My initial reaction that it would be one the scenarios you outlined. Either they have an ethnic romanticism type of thing going on.....or they want to lay claim to a burden that they don't actually experience (victim-hood seeking)....or they feel that their voice will carry more weight/taken more seriously....or they want access to a tangible benefit that they don't deserve (race-relevant scholarship/government tax benefit/etc). Most likely some combination of all four and none of them are legitimate or just.

And just like you mentioned earlier.....those possible motivations are not as present for gender transitions. Yes, it's true that trans issues also have scenarios that might involve opportunism (males transitioning to females and then competing in a woman's sports league)....but those instances are EXTREMELY rare.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:05 PM

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119. "It's the transgenders peeping in the locker room argument lol"
In response to Reply # 109


          


>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this
>white
>>woman staging hate crimes though.

It's so funny that all of the Hannity, conservative talking points come out in all this.

_______________________________________

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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120. "Except those are their unfounded fears"
In response to Reply # 119
Fri Jun-12-15 08:15 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

These are examples of real live racist doing real live things. Its not like we're short on racism in this society... And expecting it from people that engage in this kind of race play is so far out the box.
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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:12 PM

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121. "So this lady in the news today is a racist?"
In response to Reply # 120


          

Or are you talking about the unfounded fears of people transforming into other races for the explicitly to be racist?

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Sarah_Bellum
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:20 PM

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123. "There is a high chance she made up fake hate crimes"
In response to Reply # 121
Fri Jun-12-15 08:23 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

To deepen her "black experience" and gain credibility.
If not that then she didn't believe black folks were evolved enough to allow her to do the kinds of work she wanted to do because she is white. She was paid to give speeches on growing up black! So yes she is a racist....yes.
Its like the guy from the Indian one tear commercial....
http://lparchive.org/Mega-Man-Battle-Network-4-6/Update%2049/31-crying-indian1.jpg
This dude is Italian and ran around passing as an Indian because it made him feel special, unique and different.
The shit is racist as it comes.
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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:32 PM

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125. "What makes her racist? Misguided comes to mind but what makes her a raci..."
In response to Reply # 120


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:11 PM

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133. "Well there is the black face part for starters."
In response to Reply # 125


  

          


___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:54 PM

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136. "Again, apply your logic to transgender."
In response to Reply # 133


          

Is a man dressing as a woman automatically being sexist in that they are committing an act of imitation of a culturally traditionally subordinate group?

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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138. "black face and transgender people are not equivalent."
In response to Reply # 136
Fri Jun-12-15 11:55 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

I love how people are who didn't know jack squat about transpeople only a month and a half ago now know so much about it that they can now assign that experience to other people who have yet to articulate it for themselves.
___________________________________________________________


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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145. "If you describe what that lady is doing is blackface then clearly you"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          


You don't know what blackface is.

Then you keep resorting to this "y'all think you know transgemndserism" what gives you this great insight into transgemndserism that you think we clearly don't posess?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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150. "If this was black face than that is black face"
In response to Reply # 145
Sat Jun-13-15 08:20 AM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1497394.1382802244!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/107440pcn-julianne.jpg

Based on stereotypes and born out of fetishism as it always has been. Keep handing out passes for trans-blackface.

__________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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152. "It's really weird "
In response to Reply # 150


          

to see the practice involving the genitals as entirely normative, while the one involving skin color is necessarily "born out of fetishism". That's totally strange to me.

  

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Vex_id
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153. "it is - and it's also logically bankrupt."
In response to Reply # 152


          

>to see the practice involving the genitals as entirely
>normative, while the one involving skin color is necessarily
>"born out of fetishism". That's totally strange to me.


-->

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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268. "Only if you continue to view this ahistorically"
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

That's pretty illogical
Context is important

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Cocobrotha2
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99. "I guess I'm still stuck on the individuals being used for comparison"
In response to Reply # 0


          

What bothers me about this woman is her attempt to hide her past. I can understand not feeling a connection to her past identity but her attempt to completely hide it seems cowardly in comparison to Caitlyn who continually revealed it to those closest to her and, eventually, the world.

I'm sure alot of transgendered men and women probably have pasts they want to forget and probably don't want the public spotlight but I'd think their transition would be something they'd at least share with their inner circles.

I believe this woman's husband knew she was white (just bc the parents were at the wedding) but if she didn't reveal this part of her to other close friends and confidants, I'd think she's a poor representative of trans-racials.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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103. "But this is only because we knew Jenner beforehand..."
In response to Reply # 99


          

There are probably transgendered who move to knew cities and create new lives just like this woman.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SHAstayhighalways
Member since Sep 03rd 2014
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:39 PM

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127. "the major component to passing is secrecy otherwise you're not passing"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

lol she was doing it right but its just a concept that screams WRONG....WRONG © c. murphy

www.royallegacy.org

For Real (Official Video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRoCPO8esE

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:26 PM

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110. "How can one be trans race when one can only be human?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:39 PM

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112. "to put it this way, i'm not going to deconstruct a turd"
In response to Reply # 0


          

to know that it's made of shit.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:41 PM

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131. "To answer the ?, they say race isn't scientific but gender is."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Meaning there's a measurable difference in hormones and whatnot when it comes to
men and women, the brain causes different parts of the body to develop, etc.

For one, if transrace and transgender are comparable, somebody gonna have to come up off
that lie that race is just a "social construct" and admit we ain't so alike. So that's
the first order of business. Somebody gonna have to be honest and stop lying about
why all these experiments keeps happening on us and why they trafficking organs.

For two, all this comparing it to people passing is silly, because people "pass" when
they already look a lot like the race they tryna pass for, and as Sha pointed out, secrecy
is a major component of that. So to make this comparable, are we saying the only
people who can really claim transrace are people who are half or already appear to
be the race they wanna pass for? How does this compare to transgender folks when
they go through "gender reassignment surgery"? You can tell me all day that your
past doesn't make you a man or a woman or that experiences don't contribute to it,
but I'm really gonna need you to fall down telling me the same is true for race.

And that leads to number 3. The government decides what race you are. Look at
Mustafa Hefny who has been fighting for years to be called black. That's not even
him trying to change what he is. That's him trying to be recognized as what he is...
ACCORDING to this "social construct" called race. Understand why that is, and then
get at me with this comparison.
Does the government do this to women or men over here? Is anyone born with a
penis fighting to be called or man or born with a vagina fighting to be called a woman?
I can't take nobody seriously who ignores white supremacy in this discussion.


~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:57 PM

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132. "Also this question from a white supremacist society is some bullshit"
In response to Reply # 0


          

(I'm including you, because conservative outlets have been asking this same question
since the Dolezal controversy came to light)

White supremacy said all Black people were (are) less than. It wasn't limited to men
or women. For white men to turn around and ask why you can accept a white MAN as a white woman
but not a white woman as Black is some offensive bullshit for reasons I'm tired of yall
insensitive pricks trying to turn into something tangible or measurable.



~
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~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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134. "ya'll niggas, the white and black and others among you, are wild as shit..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:50 PM

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135. "i understand one and don't understand the other."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But my understanding means nothing. If they like it I love it for them.

Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight,
>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?
>
>I'm not particularly interested in the conservative opinion
>here, whereby they think transgendered *and* transracial are
>silly concepts not worthy of equal rights under the law.
>
>I'm more interested in the progressive opinion - whereby in
>one respect, the cause of transgendered people is championed,
>yet on the flip side, the mere mention of transracial is a
>crime worthy of condemnation and clowning.
>
>Do tell.
>
>-->

fuck you.

  

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dEs
Member since Sep 01st 2006
34879 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 12:02 AM

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139. "trans ppl have existed for centuries"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

here's an excerpt of Janet Mock discussing mahuwahine, fa'afafine, and fakaleiti--pre-colonial Polynesian terms for transgender:

(Kindle screenshot)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/302/18759517411_236aa26d85_b.jpg

here are some other cultures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transgender_people_in_non-Western_cultures

also, science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Brain-based_studies

_____

shann.email/inbox.pls.

  

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dafriquan
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141. "Buddy and Vex...thank you"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

For NOT engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

We cant impose our own parameters when it suits us.

If we're gonna be open minded, lets commit fully to the concept of respecting one's choice to self identify, no matter how weird.

This Rachel chick is not a good candidate cause she lied too much about everything but the story still raises questions that cannot be brushed off easily. Saying transracial is not a "thing" does not discount it. Things that were never things have to start their new life as a thing someday. I only just found out ablist was a thing two weeks ago...lol. And I'm not even sold on it fully.

I have always been fascinated by that awkward fuzzy area where identity briefly reveals itself as the absurd concept it actually is.

And yet I think post-racial thought is a crock of shit.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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146. "Too be fair, I don't if I am completely sold on either."
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

I actually found a lot to agree with in Elanor Burkett's op ed piece critical of trans genserism.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0&referrer=

It's a good read but she was thoroughly denounced for it.

But I can get down with the general principal live and let live so I don't even have to think too hard about understanding either of them.

I do think I am sympathetic to the white lady because she seems to have a long track record of supporting black causes. I wish more black people would join the NAACP. You should see all the comments of people taking shots at the NAACP when these ninjas fail to remember is there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.

Anyway, more than anything I hate hypocrisy and if folks came up with a decent distinction between the two I would acknowledge it but folks haven't and are being dishonest with themselves by not admitting that there isn't a good distinction.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jun-13-15 07:50 AM

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148. "Not everybody views that as a good thing."
In response to Reply # 146


          

>there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.
>


I'm of the opinion that we were better off segregated, and I'm definitely not the only one.



~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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264. "Things that people say ONLY after integration for $100 Alex. "
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

>>there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.
>>
>
>
>I'm of the opinion that we were better off segregated, and I'm
>definitely not the only one.
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14000 posts
Tue Jun-16-15 06:04 AM

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334. "Garvey said it prior..."
In response to Reply # 264


          

and of course people sometimes don't realize they didn't need what they wanted
until they get it. That's just life.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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414. "How'd that work out for the Garvey-ites?"
In response to Reply # 334


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Wed Jun-17-15 10:07 PM

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498. "Pretty well until integration. What has integration done for "
In response to Reply # 414
Wed Jun-17-15 10:09 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

Black unemployment levels?
Number of Black folk killed by police...
etc?

~
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~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
12715 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 08:07 AM

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149. "she's good as any because you can't be transracial without lying"
In response to Reply # 141


          

if your birth parents aren't black.

  

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dafriquan
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Sat Jun-13-15 08:33 AM

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151. "Slippery slope. "
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

If you think a transracial is lieing then what about this...

A man with balls and a penis who has competed against the most elite male atheletes in the whole world tells me he is actually a woman?
Should I call him a liar? Or should I say "Hey I can respect that. Do you"?

I lean towards allowing a transgendered woman to perform her femininity.

Race (especially in America) too is "performed". This was clearly demonstrated by all the funny #AskRachel memes. Most white people with an afinity for black culture for instance can answer 95% of all of those questions quite accurately.

I just read the article Buddy posted in his reply to me and it has articulated some of what I have observed in how some women react to gay or transgendered people. They are not flattered by their performance of femininity. Even going as far as to find it offensive because it borders on reductionist fetishism. But they don't get to deny a trans woman because it does not vibe with their woman. Might the same not apply to race?

Read the article with race goggles and holla back

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:00 AM

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157. "What part of "performance" is police brutality?"
In response to Reply # 151


          

>Race (especially in America) too is "performed".


~
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~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 02:26 AM

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143. "I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-13-15 02:49 AM by denny

          

But I just tried changing one of the variables of her situation.

What if she actually declared that she was transrace. She hasn't. She is saying 'I am black'. But what if she said 'I was born to white parents but have always felt black on the inside'. If she explicitly stated that I think I'd find what she's doing less problematic. But notice...it would be less likely that she would get a scholarship for Howard...less likely that she'd have a high ranking position at the NAACP....less likely that she'd be a university prof in African studies.

I think that's a really important distinction. If she did what Caitlyn did in her context.....she wouldn't lie. She wouldn't take a picture of her doctor'ed hair and say "Going natural for my birthday". The deception proves to me that she knows she will get something of value out of lying. Caitlyn Jenner is doing nothing of the sort. In short....we could conceivably condemn Rachel without closing the door on the existence of a transrace identity. A person who identified themselves as 'transrace' wouldn't receive the benefits that we think Rachel is after. (a more credible voice, victim-hood seeking, etc)

So this kinda opens up some room to move here. When we change our perceptions of Caitlyn from being a man to a woman....we can do so while recognizing that Caitlyn has not had ALL the experiences of a woman. She has not experienced sexist barriers to success. She has not experienced fear of sexual assault the same way that a nontrans woman has. And we're ok with that. But with what Rachel's doing....she's not giving us the opportunity to make that distinction in our perception of her.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 02:58 AM

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144. "RE: I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel."
In response to Reply # 143


          

it's as if Caitlyn were to say....'I identify as a woman and have struggled with the burden of sexism all my life.' That's what Rachel is doing. I'd imagine our response would be 'ok we get that you feel like a woman....but you have NOT experienced those issues like other women have'.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:22 AM

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147. "Caitlyn Jenner is DOING exactly what you said she isn't doing. "
In response to Reply # 143
Sat Jun-13-15 06:37 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

Caitlyn Jenner is not saying I am a transwoman. She is saying I am a Woman. The fact is we know Caitlyn is a trans because we remember when she was Bruce. We know her history.

Are you saying that transwomen who identify as "Women" and don't explicitly describe themselves as "Transwomen" are lying??!?!


And let's admit another thing. If an interviewer or reporter was interviewing a transwoman, and asked her if she was a man or a woman. And kept repeatingly badgering her about whether she was truly a woman. We would all think that that reporter was a dickhead right?


Try again.


>But I just tried changing one of the variables of her
>situation.
>
>What if she actually declared that she was transrace. She
>hasn't. She is saying 'I am black'. But what if she said 'I
>was born to white parents but have always felt black on the
>inside'. If she explicitly stated that I think I'd find what
>she's doing less problematic. But notice...it would be less
>likely that she would get a scholarship for Howard...less
>likely that she'd have a high ranking position at the
>NAACP....less likely that she'd be a university prof in
>African studies.
>
>I think that's a really important distinction. If she did
>what Caitlyn did in her context.....she wouldn't lie. She
>wouldn't take a picture of her doctor'ed hair and say "Going
>natural for my birthday". The deception proves to me that she
>knows she will get something of value out of lying. Caitlyn
>Jenner is doing nothing of the sort. In short....we could
>conceivably condemn Rachel without closing the door on the
>existence of a transrace identity. A person who identified
>themselves as 'transrace' wouldn't receive the benefits that
>we think Rachel is after. (a more credible voice, victim-hood
>seeking, etc)
>
>So this kinda opens up some room to move here. When we change
>our perceptions of Caitlyn from being a man to a woman....we
>can do so while recognizing that Caitlyn has not had ALL the
>experiences of a woman. She has not experienced sexist
>barriers to success. She has not experienced fear of sexual
>assault the same way that a nontrans woman has. And we're ok
>with that. But with what Rachel's doing....she's not giving
>us the opportunity to make that distinction in our perception
>of her.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 05:02 PM

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171. "It's simple:"
In response to Reply # 147


          

Caitlyn Jenner is not attaching herself to the historical struggles of women and the experience of growing up in a sexist world. She's not attaching herself to being discouraged from male-dominated fields. At least to my knowledge.

Rachel IS. She's attaching herself to the struggles of having African hair in a society that judges it. Attaching herself to the experience of being a victim of hate crime. Attaching herself to the experience of growing up in a racist world.

That difference is good enough for me to accept one and not the other. And I feel intellectually consistent in doing so.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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262. "This is called a dinstinction without a difference. "
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

>Caitlyn Jenner is not attaching herself to the historical
>struggles of women and the experience of growing up in a
>sexist world. She's not attaching herself to being
>discouraged from male-dominated fields. At least to my
>knowledge.
>
>Rachel IS. She's attaching herself to the struggles of having
>African hair in a society that judges it.

So her hairstyle choice is what's making the difference? She can't rock braids because only black people are allowed to wear braids? Are black women attaching themselves to white people by straightening their hair?


Attaching herself to the experience of being a victim of hate crime.


Listen either it happened or it did not. If it didn't happen. Shame on her. That would be indefensible. However why are folks so dismissive they are certain it didn't happen? This story is so convoluting people's sense of right and wrong that now people are sounding like the sexist who don't believe a woman's claims of sexual harrasment except this time it's racial harrasment. I personally could see a white woman who was "acting black" in a white environment would certainly be a prime target for racial harrasment.

Attaching
>herself to the experience of growing up in a racist world.
>
>That difference is good enough for me to accept one and not
>the other. And I feel intellectually consistent in doing so.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14000 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 09:53 AM

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156. "That "going natural" bullshit offends me more than any of it really..."
In response to Reply # 143


          

Her hair is naturally straight. foh.
It's like some elaborate joke and mockery of Black culture/existence where she's playing dress-up.

As for her lying about being Black, I'm side-eyeing the people who bought and allowed it
more than I'm side-eyeing her.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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esb225
Member since Nov 12th 2003
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155. "there is no difference bc you are who you are... "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you can identify with a race but u can't just wake up one day and decide to be that race... u can alter your appearance and to further identify with said race but again you can't change ur dna and become that race...

same with transgender... you can alter your appearance and take as many hormones as you want but ur still who you are. you can alter your choices but you can never escape who you are at the core...

just my 2 cents

I got a good life man

  

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Vex_id
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158. "Melissa-Harris Perry is talking about it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and making some great points this morning that many of you had made.

the national response to this is as interesting (if not more interesting) than the
actual story.

-->

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:20 AM

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159. "Transrace is a new white supremacist buzzword. White privilege"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The idea that you can wear blackface and preform as a black person when it suits you. And it's being framed by transgender-ism while somehow ignoring centuries of black people attempting to "pass" as white through harmful skin lightening & hurtful hair straightening

Starting the conversation at transgendered white man is some white supremacist bullshit & I'm not surprised to see it being pushed by Vex or Buddy

  

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Vex_id
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160. "lol this is such non-sense, but entertaining non-sense."
In response to Reply # 159


          

Act brand new and blind to what the leading academics, scholars, and cultural commentators are actually saying - but a myriad of progressives (black, white, trans, etc..) are facilitating discussions on transrace and talking about this with real depth, as opposed to your attempt to outright dismiss it because it makes you uncomfortable.


-->

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:47 AM

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161. "I outright dismissed "transracialism" when framed by the Jenner situatio..."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

instead of the historical context of actual people of color who to this day just want to get to a point where their color doesn't define them because it isn't something that can be slipped off whenever its convenient unlike this woman who lied about her background

  

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Vex_id
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164. "you dismissed the mere mention of "transrace" as white supremacist jargo..."
In response to Reply # 161


          

regardless of whether it was framed/paralleled to transgender.

Nobody is even defending this NAACP woman in here (other than defending her right to self-identify) - we're talking about transrace in the vein of transgender because there are undeniable parallels (and nuances) that provides for an interesting discussion.

You don't even want that discussion to be had.

-->

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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181. "I find it absolutely consistent to dismiss transgenderism and transracia..."
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

That's morally and logically consistent.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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Sat Jun-13-15 11:01 AM

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162. "I'm with what Buddy said ultimately:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"My only issue with the concept of transrace is the idea of white folks taking advantage of programs that are set aside for minorities. Other than that why does anyone really give a fuk?"

Essentially, it's honestly too new of a concept (new meaning becoming a national buzzword, talk show topic, trending matter, etc.) for anyone to have a truly valuable comment on the situation without it veering into the opinion space.

Race and Gender are constructs that define one's human experience but to say race has a parallel with gender...it's tricky and almost dishonest to try and compare the two as if it's that static. I think we're all wise enough to realize it has and never will be that simple.

So, at the moment, just like most things that I'm not saddled with, if one wants to self-identify in a manner that makes them feel at peace, as long as it's not for selfish gain I'm largely going to keep it moving and not seek to tear it down.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Jun-13-15 11:47 AM

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163. "Man, its so entertaining watching people justify one and not the other....."
In response to Reply # 162


          

Personally, I respect ones decision to identify as woman but it doesnt mean I agree with it.

I knew this was next and its crazy seeing people on here rock for one but not the other because they feel it belongs to them.

This is exactly how evangelicals and conservatives feel when it comes to sexuality.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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165. "that's the dangerous crossroads right there."
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

>I knew this was next and its crazy seeing people on here rock
>for one but not the other because they feel it belongs to
>them.
>
>This is exactly how evangelicals and conservatives feel when
>it comes to sexuality.
>
>

And like you, it's odd that people don't think it possible for one to respect a person's choice but not agree with it. Like that's a melding of thoughts couldn't intersect for some reason.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 05:10 PM

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172. "Post 171."
In response to Reply # 163


          

I think it's pretty irrefutable.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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266. "Naw, that post is pretty refutable. "
In response to Reply # 172


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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166. "People may not like the comparative analysis w/ gender,"
In response to Reply # 162
Sat Jun-13-15 12:26 PM by Vex_id

          

but there are parallels. There are differences as well, but to pretend as if there are no parallels is also intellectually dishonest. Where the parallel has meaning is in the basic philosophical foundation of one's thinking on why transgendered people should be respected: You are respecting their right to self-identify and not let a social construct (which they find limiting) wholly define who they are. That philosophy is transferrable into the transrace arena.

People's conceptions of race and gender greatly differ as it pertains to identity politics. Some don't want transgendered people to be able to challenge the conventional definitions of what gender, 'male' and 'female' and 'marriage' mean - others don't want what we're calling 'transrace' people to be able to challenge those conventional definitions of race. Both want people to shut up and fit within the conventional boxes of both gender and race, but are approaching that conclusion from very different paths.

There are parallels and there are differences with gender and race, and sometimes those difference don't have as much to do with the social constructs as it does the person who has developed an identity around those constructs, and reflexively seeks to defend those constructs based on how they self-identify.


-->

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:59 PM

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167. "Potential biological and chemical urges are present in one case"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and probably not the other.

Gender is also a pretty clear distinction (though not always entirely clear) where race is partly biological but largely defined socially.

Personally I don't buy into identifying oneself along lines of racial, religious, regional or cultural identity but I don't begrudge people who do either. So it's hard for me to be up in arms or have open arms about someone wants to be "transracial," if that's going to be a word now. I just say be who you are, if you feel that person has lighter skin or darker skin or speaks with a certain affectation, OK, but understand that not everyone will be receptive to that.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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168. "this is why:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight,
>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?

http://www.tmz.com/2015/06/02/chet-haze-n-word-rap-tom-hanks-son/

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
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Sat Jun-13-15 02:02 PM

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169. "RE: What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrac..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I tend to agree with the sentiments Elinor Burkett expressed in the NYT article, posted, now, twice in this thread.

Especially, I wonder, on this issue, about the implications of this point:

"...By defining womanhood the way he did to Ms. Sawyer, Mr. Jenner and the many advocates for transgender rights who take a similar tack ignore those realities. In the process, they undermine almost a century of hard-fought arguments that the very definition of female is a social construct that has subordinated us. And they undercut our efforts to change the circumstances we grew up with."

I don't know what the distinguishing difference is between transgender and transrace.

What I've read and experienced about either is laughable. I don't pretend to know much and don't want to speak for people. And likely, I'm committing the ugliness of speaking on something I know not much about. Anything I say = grain of salt.

I think in both cases (transgender and transrace), *individuals* are making assertions about the relationship of *their* personal identity to society and community. The primary ground of the conversation seems to center on rights.

What's troubling to me is a kind of erasure, revisionism, and collapsing/glossing that's happening around instances where the power dynamic of oppressor and oppressed (which seems to masquerade behind a lot of this) is cast into light because of the transgender conversation.

Out of basic sensitivity and respect, which *all* seem to agree is needful: those in our society who have experienced the power dynamic and position of *oppressor* (for whatever reason or circumstance and however actively or unconsciously) who are trans but take on/live/embrace identities as the *oppressed* should be mindful that for those who are *oppressed*--

there is no “freeing” change, there is no mistake, there is not a wrong place and a right place for them to "go to" or journey towards to find themselves.

For some, STILL our Blackness and our Womanhood is degraded, disrespected, ignored. We know not to ask for or expect. Instead, we’ve had to fight. Will continue to.

When it comes to Caitlyn and Rachel what I want to know is: Sister, have you been fighting for or against me? Me: me also meaning "us," the "us" you are part of. Sister, do you know and understand the struggle?

Because I can’t just throw the shackles off my feet so I can dance, Sis. And I'm living an authentic life as MY damn self, too. So many are. Often in the face of serious consequences, which Sister, you may be able to understand and identify with.

So welcome to the party, but what's your consciousness like? And if you’re down, you’re down. I have no problem. And really, no problem if you’re not. Peace be unto you. God knows, many have learned to keep marching and know how to make it in this world without acceptance and “equal” rights.

The oppressor and oppressed, in this country, often live in and have access to radically different realities.

I can’t overlook that Caitlyn and Rachel have relationship to Whiteness (one transwoman, one cis-woman) which may assume framing about gender and race which are problematic in so far as their experiences *may* invite them to assume posturings and understandings in relation to the fact that all things oppression (especially developing the psyche of an oppressor) is so deeply knit, nurtured, and encouraged in our society.

As a Black woman-- I have a problem when someone looking from the vantage point or position of an oppressor begins to "explore," question, engage, or challenge Womanhood or Blackness without acknowledging that the framing of the desired Womanhood or Blackness isn't neutral, natural, wholesomely good (because it celebrates the individual), objective, or whatever else. So. Great: be a woman. Be Black. Free yourself. But did you free yourself from all the education and experience in oppression?

I don’t assert that either woman *hasn’t* done such a thing.

All I'm saying is don't drink the water, we need it for the fire!

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:06 PM

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173. "There's a huge problem in this."
In response to Reply # 169
Sat Jun-13-15 06:07 PM by denny

          

It seems like this woman is saying she'll accept them as long as they have a similar worldview to her. That's not how identity works. There are plenty of black woman who don't share this women's framework of oppression. That does not negate their identities as black women.

It can't be a case of.....'if you're worldview is similar to mine then welcome aboard'.

That being said....the article does go in a direction that I'm heading in. With both transgender and transrace....there needs to be an acknowledgement that they have not experienced the world in the same way that someone with a similar identity to them has. For example....a person with a penis who identifies as a woman should still take responsible for male privilege up until the time they are no longer perceived as a male.

And that's exactly why Rachel is so wrong here. She is pretending that she didn't grow up with white privilege. She did, regardless of who she feels like on the inside. I've never met a transrace person....but if someone claimed to feel native American on the inside while recognizing that their actual experience growing up was different than a native person....well, I guess I've arrived to a position of tolerance and acceptance for that. But I would NOT accept anything they would say in terms of negating the privilege and experience of how they were PERCEIVED before transitioning.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:19 PM

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175. "yea see, you want to make it about you. "
In response to Reply # 169


          

but it's not always about you. Sometimes it's about an over-arching
principle that you either accept or reject. Here, that's the principle
of respecting an individual's right to self-identify.

>When it comes to Caitlyn and Rachel what I want to know is:
>Sister, have you been fighting for or against me? Me: me also
>meaning "us," the "us" you are part of. Sister, do you know
>and understand the struggle?

So will you only accept the rights for gays to marry if they are "fighting
for you" and agree w/ your world-view? What about equal rights for
women - is that only in play if that particular woman knows and understands
you and your experiences?

See the problem in that?




-->

  

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luminous
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170. "Michael Jackson was transgender and transracial"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so, this is old news... this is 2015 already....

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Sat Jun-13-15 11:36 PM

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185. "Did he identify himself as a woman? I dont recall."
In response to Reply # 170


          

We gonna conveniently forget he had skin disease too, right?

Your black card is under review for using michael jackson's name in vain. Log back in in bout 3-5 business days.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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luminous
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199. "lulz"
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jun-19-15 02:55 PM

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534. "Michael Jackson was very clear that he was a Black man"
In response to Reply # 170
Fri Jun-19-15 02:55 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

This is a very stupid thing to say ESPECIALLY since this whole thing is about "self-identifying"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7WP4prIwUQ

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~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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akon
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:15 PM

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174. "and how is this (transrace, i.e.) not cultural appropriation?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:23 PM

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183. "It is if you think culture can be appropriated. If you think culture can..."
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

be appropriated then it would logically follow that Misty Copland has culturally appropriated ballet since Ballet originated in Italy.

It would also follow that transgendered appropriated "female cultural".


I personally think the idea of cultural appropriation is silly. Cultural by its very nature spreads to those it come into contact with.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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akon
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Sun Jun-14-15 08:48 AM

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196. "so american indians should stop bitching"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          


>I personally think the idea of cultural appropriation is
>silly. Cultural by its very nature spreads to those it come
>into contact with.

cultural appropriation is different from assimilation or diffusion

lets not dilute this into a 'well cultures do change and influence each other'

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:23 PM

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176. "."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-13-15 06:23 PM by Vex_id

          

-->

  

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dEs
Member since Sep 01st 2006
34879 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 07:17 PM

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177. "huffpo article on Dolezal v Caitlyn"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/rachel-dolezal-caitlyn-jenner_n_7569160.html

_____

shann.email/inbox.pls.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:01 PM

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179. "Started off promising but falls into the same trap."
In response to Reply # 177
Sat Jun-13-15 09:08 PM by denny

          

"As a white woman, Dolezal retains her privilege; she can take out the box braids and strip off the self-tanner and navigate the world without the stigma tied to actually being black. Her connection to racial oppression is something she has complete control over, a costume she can put on -- and take off -- as she pleases."

As we've pointed out over and over again.....a feminist might say the exact same thing about Caitlyn Jenner. Caitlyn can always resort to dressing like a male....returning to the privileges inherent if she chooses to.

The article should've stuck to this line of reasoning:

"As Darnell L. Moore of Mic eloquently put it, "In attempting to pass as black, Dolezal falsely represented her identity. Trans people don't lie about their gender identities — they express their gender according to categories that reflect who they are."

Suppose Caitlyn had said "I remember those awkward years of being 16 years old when men started leering and objectifying my body. I struggled to learn how to navigate the world as a sexualized woman. No man could ever understand what this experience is like". We would ALL say she is full of shit. But Caitlyn says no such thing. She does not try to attach herself to the struggles and burdens of being woman that she avoided despite how she felt inside. Rachel, on the other hand, is doing EXACTLY that.

  

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yisthat
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Mon Jun-15-15 09:11 AM

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247. "i am so sick of"
In response to Reply # 177
Mon Jun-15-15 09:12 AM by yisthat

  

          

this:

"Transracial identity is a concept that allows white people to indulge in blackness as a commodity, without having to actually engage with every facet of what being black entails -- discrimination, marginalization, oppression, and so on."

What being black entails... is consistently being reduced to "discrimination, marginalization and oppression". While I understand our experience cannot be examined or discussed without considering this and that only we can comprehend the full impact, why are we so comfortable defining the "Black Experience" in such negative terms?

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:19 PM

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182. "They are both the same in that neither exists."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When Bruce Jenner dies there will be a man's skeleton in the coffin that people will be referring to as "she" or "her".

Conversely race is a social construct for obvious reasons, for example where on the map is the country of white or black?

Therefore neither of these concepts-- be it race or transgender are real. They are imaginary constructs people choose to cling to in order to feel and or exercise power in some way shape or form

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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184. "your mistake is thinking social constructs don't exist. "
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

Just because something is a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Money, religion, property, etc. are all social construct that doesn't make them any less real.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sun Jun-14-15 07:36 AM

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193. "They exist the same way black 'super strength' exists "
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

In the minds of the unwittingly and willfully ignorant. That does not mean they should be believed in. Much like how many a white supremacist believed white people were at the center of ancient civilizations such as the stone city of Zimbabwe and various Aztec and Mayan cities.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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481. "So you don't believe in the Social Construct of 'Money'?"
In response to Reply # 193


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Sun Apr-14-19 09:15 AM

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583. "Money has the value of whatever goods or service are attached"
In response to Reply # 481


  

          

Race has the cultural insecurities of a handful of wealthy Europeans as it's primary source of value

Insecurities are based on feelings and feelings can change on a dime. Therefore race is just people agreeing to act on emotions not reality which is why that method of "thinking" is only about 200 years old

Not similar to money

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Sat Jun-13-15 11:39 PM

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186. "Where is the "power" in being transgender? My nigga, what are you saying..."
In response to Reply # 182


          

I mean, there's power in being free to be yourself, but power over others? Fuck outta here. There are trans women and men getting killed for this shit.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sun Jun-14-15 07:38 AM

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194. "The power is in the organizations that pull or grant their sponsorship"
In response to Reply # 186
Sun Jun-14-15 07:45 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

We saw it with Tracy Morgan.

Also living in that state allows one who at one time felt out of place to be a part of a larger, more influential, community i.e. the power that comes from strength in numbers.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Triptych
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187. "Would you agree that white supremacy is part of US ideology?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________________________

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mtbatol
Member since May 22nd 2002
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Sun Jun-14-15 01:14 AM

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188. "Lets say I'm for transrace.. outright lying about your past is that too?"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jun-14-15 01:19 AM by mtbatol

          

Lying about growing up a Black woman when you're in a prototypical privilaged white upbringing isn't "transrace"... it's bullshit. Lets not compare this to Braitlyn Jenner -_-)p

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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189. "exactly."
In response to Reply # 188
Sun Jun-14-15 02:30 AM by denny

          

A hypothetical transrace person does not absolve themselves of privilege. They would still have to acknowledge the privilege afforded to them because of what they look like.

Rachel IS trying to absolve herself of privilege by lying.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sun Jun-14-15 05:19 AM

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190. "Go ahead and let the advocates align it with pathological lying"
In response to Reply # 188


          

This is great, lol

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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mtbatol
Member since May 22nd 2002
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192. "heh I'm sayin, is Bruce saying he was a mom who ran against women?"
In response to Reply # 190


          

..in the olympics?
this is a huge chunk of illogical sillyness in this whole thing.

  

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StephBMore
Member since Sep 11th 2014
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279. "she is a pathological liar, she's not "trans race" or any other made up ..."
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

she lied. period. She didn't just cover up her past, she invented a completely new one with new experiences that she assumed black women go through by reading books and watching tv, and then served it to everyone as if it was the truth. that's a liar. and if no one sees the issue with her abundance of lies, there is no way a real convo can be had on this...

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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200. "I hear but that should apply to transgendered as well. Is"
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

Caitlin a liar for declaring she is a woman?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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mtbatol
Member since May 22nd 2002
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213. "#192 e.g. did he say he raised kids as a mom?"
In response to Reply # 200


          

..and he was in a lesbian relationship with Kris ?

  

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MiracleRic
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237. "yea, there have never been cases of trans lying about their sex"
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

smh, yall killin me in here

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sun Jun-14-15 06:38 AM

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191. "One is a fraud that requires you lie "
In response to Reply # 0


          

To be black by the legal definition is to a person with ancestral history in the African continent. You can only pull this off by lying.

There have always been hermaphrodites, people with a different number of chromosomes etc. There are animals that exhibit traits assoc with the opposite gender.
So transgender is not a made up thing. We are just accepting something that occurs naturally after thousands of years of civilization.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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257. "I think you are confusing transexual and transgender"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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197. "MHP is talking about it again this morning w/ a panel..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

and she had the courage to bring up the parallel between transrace and transgender theory - and the panel was effectively stumped and uncertain as to how to approach the question not all that dissimilar to what has taken place in this discussion.

Such an interesting topic.

-->

  

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Triptych
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198. "Proving?"
In response to Reply # 197


  

          

That the question itself is valid?

That a particular answer to your question is implied by momentary silence?

____________________________

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Vex_id
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210. "proving that there is merit in having a broader discussion."
In response to Reply # 198
Sun Jun-14-15 01:28 PM by Vex_id

          

MHP (who was getting roasted by twitter trolls for talking about transrace
in the same vein as transgender) did not allow the panel to come on and just spout
off double-standards, unchecked.

One panelist said: "I can't simply just show up tomorrow as a white person." To which MHP responded saying "well I can't just simply show up tomorrow as a man, there's a process that has to take place before that identity can just be assumed"

Another panelist stated: "everyone wants to be black until the police show up" - to which MHP noted that many people who identify as 'black' are people who the police do not even readily identify as 'black' based on fair-skinned physical appearance - so MHP asked the question - are we talking bout race or skin color?

MHP also challenged the panel as to why many are so comfortable with fluidity being applied to gender, yet hold race to be necessarily fixed and cemented in rigidity. Nobody had an answer to that and she found that interesting - as do I.

-->

  

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Triptych
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228. "Has Dolezal even identified as trans-racial?"
In response to Reply # 210


  

          

Or are we doing that on her behalf?

____________________________

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Vex_id
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229. "the discussion is really less about her than it is the concept of transr..."
In response to Reply # 228


          

she hasn't commented on it other than to say 'i don't two shits what you think' - which isn't exactly productive, but what MHP was discussing - and what's at issue in here - is really less about Rachel Dolezal and more about the concept of transient race theory. It's been "a thing" for some time, but we've never quite approached the subject from this angle, so it feels like it's unprecedented even though it's really not.

-->

  

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Triptych
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230. "White people have a constitution right to express themselves."
In response to Reply # 229
Sun Jun-14-15 08:03 PM by Triptych

  

          

I think that covers both transrace and transgender conversions.

I believe in that freedom, but also that white-to-black transracials may undermine the black liberation movement.

There is also a component to being Black that has a lot to do with actual lived history of our ancestors, and certainly no white-to-black transracial person can imitate that. Thus, the idea that one can fully opt into Blackness injures the Black racial memory.

In this case, we also feel (unnecessarily) lied to. Black people have no problem cheering on white people who pass the test. Rachel Dolezal could have been elected to the NAACP as an extraordinary white person. Instead, she selectively adopted the parts of blackness that she liked, and tried to ENFORCE that definition as real blackness (if you start to listen to the stories about her).

____________________________

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Vex_id
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494. "There's a difference in supporting Dolezal's decision to lie"
In response to Reply # 230


          

and supporting Dolezal's right to self-identify. These are two different things.

I think her approach was destructive, but that doesn't mean I don't support her right to honest express herself and self-identify -- she should have simply had the courage to always be upfront and honest about her history and who she has become. At the same time, I wasn't surprised. Why? People who "pass" and are perceived as either white or black in transient race theory almost always lie.

What's interesting is that based on her appearance, almost everybody just assumed that she was black -- because she said she was and because (as many have noted) - there's a wide acceptance and desire to identify with blackness amongst people of all shades of skin, whether they are comprised of 5% or 95% shared lineage. That's one of the beautiful facets of black culture.

>I think that covers both transrace and transgender
>conversions.
>
>I believe in that freedom, but also that white-to-black
>transracials may undermine the black liberation movement.

how so? Has Rachel Dolezal undermined the black liberation movement in your estimation?

Also, do you believe that man-to-woman transgenders undermine the women's liberation movement?

>In this case, we also feel (unnecessarily) lied to. Black
>people have no problem cheering on white people who pass the
>test.

When you say "we" - are you presuming to speak for all Black people - or just for yourself? Because a number of Black intellectuals that I've read share a wide variety of opinions on this situation. Even in this post, there's a myriad of Black perspectives and opinions on the subject, so I don't see a singular aggregate Black opinion on display.

Rachel Dolezal could have been elected to the NAACP as
>an extraordinary white person. Instead, she selectively
>adopted the parts of blackness that she liked, and tried to
>ENFORCE that definition as real blackness (if you start to
>listen to the stories about her).

Definitely. I am not supporting Dolezal's decision to lie, deceive, and deceptively present herself as an empirical descendant of an African-American man (as she even had the audacity to do in a fraudulent Facebook picture). However, it is possible to denounce her decision to lie, yet still respect her autonomy and freedom to self-identify.




-->

  

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SoWhat
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201. "Drop the passive-aggressiveness and state your major premise."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sun Jun-14-15 11:59 AM

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202. "so... where do you stand on this? "
In response to Reply # 201


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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252. "i disagree that transrace & transgender are the same thing."
In response to Reply # 202


  

          

and i'm not exactly able to articulate why.

i agree w/what Starbaby said below about transwo/men not attempting to pass as ciswo/men...at least as a general matter. most transwo/men carve out another identity as transwo/men. whereas it seems transrace folks are often attempting to pass as 'genuinely' *insert race here* (<-- i dunno if transrace identity has yet developed to the point where they have a better term than 'genuinely ___' as transgenderism has developed the term 'cisgender'). but i'm not sure if that works so well considering the # of transwo/men who _do_ pass or at least try it. so i dunno about that either.

but generally i don't see this as a 1:1 comparison and i'm bothered that many of loudest voices saying transrace = transgender seem to be attempting to 'discredit' the transgender movement. they remind me of the folks who decry the issuance of marriage licenses to same sex couples by talking about 'slippery slopes' and bringing up bestiality ('ppl will wanna marry their dogs next!') or polygamy ('ppl will wanna marry multiple spouses next!') or object sexuality ('ppl will wanna marry their car next!'), et al. that alone makes me cast a side-eye at this whole conversation.

plus as i said previously i don't understand transrace identity as well as i understand transgender identity - but that doesn't matter much b/c i don't have to understand either for them to be 'valid'.

so i'm not sure where i stand on this.

fuck you.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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203. "My major premise is that self-identification should have a broader scope"
In response to Reply # 201


          

I don't really understand transgenderism, but it is not necessary for me to understand.
I accept that someone should have the freedom to identify however they would like and we as a society should accept that.


The exact same could be said for transracialism. However people are trying to rationalize and intellectualize away a person's ability to self identify.

Ironically, many are using the same rhetoric used to diminish transgenders. Strident supportors of transgenderism are relying on Hannity and O'Reilly talking points.

This isn't some absurd slippery slope leap like someone wanting to be an airplane. This is just as logical and valid as transgenderism in my opinion.

_______________________________________

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sun Jun-14-15 12:28 PM

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204. "it's not valid if you have to make up a new history."
In response to Reply # 203


          

there's no slippery slope here.

  

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MiracleRic
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256. "u are letting the example ruin it though"
In response to Reply # 204


  

          

use Vanilla Ice instead or MJ instead of Rachel

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Vex_id
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208. "I already have, but here's more detail attached on to it:"
In response to Reply # 201


          


Naturally, comparisons have been made to "transgender" as it relates to "transrace" theory - and understandably so. There are parallels between the theories, as well as nuanced differences that distinguish them. However, to simply say "transrace isn't a thing" is not only intellectually lazy, it's incorrect. "Transrace" has been a "thing" for centuries. Fair complected black people have been passing themselves off as white for centuries; people of "inter-racial" heritage have identified with one race at one particular time in their life, and transitioned to a different self-identifier later in life, exercising a transient self-identification process when it comes to racial identity that suits their own personal identity and perception of self. Further, it's important to note that the modern conception of "transgender" (gender dysmorphic) wasn't a "thing" until we made it one by classifying it as DSM-III in 1980. As such, the fact that "transrace" is a relatively new term that has not been validated by mainstream ideology does not mean the concept of transrace is invalid.

What I find most interesting is the intellectual dishonesty and philosophical inconsistency that is now being applied to "transgender" in comparison to "transrace." Evangelical conservatives have prototypically rejected transgender theory for the same reason many so-called progressives are now rejecting transrace theory: They both want to prevent the individual from having the creative space (and legal right) to self-identify based on conventional definitions of what "gender" and "race" are. In transgender analysis, progressives rightfully champion the right of the individual to transcend gender (a social construct) when an individual finds normative gender identity to be insufficient in defining them. Yet many of those same progressives now want to define who Rachel Dolezal is for her, tell her how to feel, and rally against her right to disregard conventional race classification (another social construct) and identify as she sees fit. Most have issues with her dishonesty (as do I), but it's also important to note that lying is intricately linked to "passing" in transracial theory, just as lying was and still is intricately linked to an LGBT person who initially does not feel comfortable identifying as gay/lesbian, and instead lives a heterosexual lie to appease the normative conventions of mainstream society.

Whether you agree with how Dolezal has lived her life is irrelevant to supporting her right to self-identify, if that is an alleged progressive principle that you claim to support. Frankly, I think she would be far more effective in embracing her lineage and being honest about her background in order to have this discussion, but my tolerance to her right to self-identify isn't contingent upon my agreeing with her or even understanding her. I don't have to understand a transgendered person's feelings - I just have to support their right to have those feeling and ensure that the law does not discriminate against them. Many people say as a white woman, Dolezal does not have to deal with daily injustices of what blacks in America have to deal with. Ok, but Bruce Jenner never had to deal with the daily injustices that a woman deals with in her lifetime, let alone the biological experience of pregnancy, menstrual cycles, and menopause. Yet, I don't hear these same voices now condemning Dolezal belittling Jenner's right to self-identify. So why the inconsistency?

Identity politics is always an ever-evolving realm, and many of us attach more value to certain identifiers than others, be it race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc.. etc... But as a principle, we should always be supportive of an individual's universal right to self-identify, and it would be helpful to exercise a level of suspicion about the ability of social constructs like race and gender to accurately portray the multi-dimensional beings that we are.

Perhaps Maajid Nawaz said it best:

"There's a dangerous corrosive side to identity politics, ie: making one's gender/skin colour/religion/sect/sexuality one's *defining* trait. Between groups this can divide people rather than unite them, promoting rather than reducing group stereotypes, and therefore increasing discrimination.

Within groups this can lend itself to reinforcing a hegemony for those individual members who refuse to conform to what being a member of that group is *meant* to mean, as defined by that community's internal power structures. This is like the old trope "You can't be a true Muslim/black man, and be gay."

Ultimately, people are individuals and have more in common with those who share their outlook/interests, not their skin colour/gender etc.."
-->

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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220. "I don't think my point has been addressed yet."
In response to Reply # 208


          

In regards to this:

"Ok, but Bruce Jenner never had to deal with the daily injustices that a woman deals with in her lifetime, let alone the biological experience of pregnancy, menstrual cycles, and menopause. Yet, I don't hear these same voices now condemning Dolezal belittling Jenner's right to self-identify. So why the inconsistency?"

But Jenner never CLAIMED to have dealt with these daily injustices and experiences. Jenner did not become a spokesperson for women's issues. Jenner did not attempt to absolve herself of male privilege.

Rachel did all those things as they pertain to race. If Rachel had claimed to be transrace...she could do so without trying to deceptively attach herself to certain experiences she wasn't privy to. Ie: "I feel like a black person on the inside...but I don't know what it's like to have hair which, in it's natural state, is sometimes deemed inappropriate at the workplace and other social circumstances".


  

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MiracleRic
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239. "this here"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

"Many people say as a white woman, Dolezal does not have to deal with daily injustices of what blacks in America have to deal with. Ok, but Bruce Jenner never had to deal with the daily injustices that a woman deals with in her lifetime, let alone the biological experience of pregnancy, menstrual cycles, and menopause. Yet, I don't hear these same voices now condemning Dolezal belittling Jenner's right to self-identify. So why the inconsistency?"

Self-identity aside...being a woman is tied to the female experience in certain ways while still being a real social construct completely separate just like race is historically tied to things,,,race is definitely a murkier and heavier construct so i get some of the pushback

the thing about identity is it's not just an individual thing...it's also a social thing...so i personally think it's odd or maybe just somewhat ill-advised to be but so American when it comes to identity...i'd rather the see the roles themselves be more flexible than people feeling so restricted by them that they need to reidentify themselves...in reality, society does choose too...there's gotta be a better way to balance individual needs with the whatever it is society is trying to do

i'm in that same camp that thinks you can identify as you want but whether or not people are going to genuinely respect or accept that is up to them which can be good, bad, and the ugly

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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223. "Niggas aint even trying to be subtle about it."
In response to Reply # 201


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sun Jun-14-15 12:34 PM

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205. "Those who are pro transracial is it okay to identify"
In response to Reply # 0


          

as native american and get that good tribal casino money?

Is it okay to identify as black and apply for affirmative action based programs/minority scholarships?

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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206. "Why do you have to resort to people transitioning for nefarious reasons?"
In response to Reply # 205


          

Are you okay with transgender men peeping in women's locker rooms?
Taking women's scholarships?

Just like those are absurd arguments to reject transgenderism, yours are equivalently absurd.

_______________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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207. "lmao.. thr foxnews fear tactics are hilarious. "
In response to Reply # 206


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
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209. "lol right. We've already been over this."
In response to Reply # 206


          

>Are you okay with transgender men peeping in women's locker
>rooms?
>Taking women's scholarships?
>
>Just like those are absurd arguments to reject transgenderism,
>yours are equivalently absurd.

At this point I think people simply don't even want to get it.


-->

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sun Jun-14-15 01:38 PM

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211. "is there a moral / non nefarious reason to outright lie"
In response to Reply # 206


          

about your history personal or familial on a government form?

  

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Teknontheou
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212. "How's that different from Caitlin or Janet Mock applying for"
In response to Reply # 211


  

          

a women's scholarship, or women's owned business grant, or whatever, if either one of them chose to?

  

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ndibs
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215. "there's no lie attached"
In response to Reply # 212


          

gender does not = biological sex.

  

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Teknontheou
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221. "Forget this woman. A white woman who feels in her soul that she is Blac..."
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

marks an application as being Black, how is that different than Caitlin or Janet marking female?

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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224. "I guess I've arrived to a place where this is acceptable."
In response to Reply # 221


          

The fact is....what Rachel is after....she won't get by saying she's transracial.

The main reason I think most of us object to this is because we don't want a white person to attach themselves to the experience of being perceived as black growing up. In certain environments (ie the social justice world)....being perceived as black carries currency. And we don't want white people getting that currency because they didn't have to go actually live those experiences in order to get it.

But if someone claimed to be transracial....they wouldn't get that currency. So it takes away the motivation of someone like Rachel. She's doing this whole thing to absolve herself of white privilege. Claiming to be transracial doesn't do that.

  

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Teknontheou
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225. "That's a really good assessment of why the social justice world"
In response to Reply # 224


  

          

is resisting this, I think.

In a weird way, it's to preserve the privilege that both Blackness and queerness have within that world. Which causes the policing of the borders of Blackness that's going on with this to make sense. Borders are almost always policed by groups who think they have something to lose without that policing.

  

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Vex_id
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226. "^excellent points by both you and denny here."
In response to Reply # 225


          


-->

  

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ndibs
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231. "Black/African American means you are a descendant of Africans "
In response to Reply # 221


          

She's not. Your lineage can be traced to African people , not neantherdals or pre humans or dinosaurs or amoebas before you make the argument were all African.

Woman is a gender identify and it is not based on genitals or chromosomes or anything else but self identification. Sex is based on genitals and bruce would have been lying if he had said his sex was the female sex. He never did that.

White polite liberal society recognizes caitlyn as a woman. If she were to go to prison, he would be put in with men. Her sex genitals are still male.

Rachel has acknowledged my definition by lying and saying her parents are black.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sun Jun-14-15 08:42 PM

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232. "You are too focused on the lie"
In response to Reply # 231


          

I'm more concerned with the hypothetical of a person identifying as Black even tho they are white.

If Rachel never lied and identified as Black would it be a problem?


****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Teknontheou
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242. "I doubt the gender/sex distinction has always been acknowledged everywhe..."
In response to Reply # 231


  

          

Perhaps it's time for us to come up with a similar distinction between felt-race and the more literal racial descent.

  

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legsdiamond
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217. "Is a transgender lying when they identify as the other sex? "
In response to Reply # 211


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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218. "gender does not = biological sex"
In response to Reply # 217


          

biological sex = biological sex.

  

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Teknontheou
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222. "The hypothetical application elides the two, so the question"
In response to Reply # 218


  

          

stands.

  

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theprofessional
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214. "white privilege >>>>>>> casino money and scholarships"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

you understand that what you're describing would be the exact opposite of gaming the system, right? being black might give you a better chance at that scholarship, but being white gives you a better chance at almost literally everything else in the united states. everyone understands this, which is why the number of white people who would hustle backwards like that is astronomically low. there's a reason why this one lady doing it is national news.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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ndibs
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216. "not necessarily. white people in california"
In response to Reply # 214
Sun Jun-14-15 03:29 PM by ndibs

          

were up in arms about the "discrimation" they experienced when it came to college applications. they still are.

  

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theprofessional
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234. "right, that's one small advantage in one very limited area"
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

they'll complain about it all day, and you'll even get people like mindy kaling's brother who will commit fraud and flat-out lie on applications to try to take even the little scraps black people have been thrown. but again, the number of white people who would be willing to change their appearance and identify as black permanently to get that scholarship is astronomically low. everyone understands that the advantages of being white in america trumps a scholarship, casino money, or whatever other microscopic advantages uncle sam has thrown to the minorities he's been running over for centuries.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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blackrussian
Member since Oct 17th 2010
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Sun Jun-14-15 04:02 PM

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219. "transracial is a thing, just not the way you think it is"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.thelostdaughters.com/2015/06/transracial-lives-matter-rachel-dolezal.html

For those of you who don’t know, and clearly there are a lot of you, the term “transracial” is used in scholarly research, creative writing and cultural work to denote a particular “state of being” for people adopted across race. In other words, it IS a 'thing'. It is disheartening and disconcerting to see this term used dismissively as if it does not encompass an entire population of Black, Brown, Native and Asian people across the globe. For the past 35ish years, I’ve considered myself to be a transracial adoptee. The “trans” in transracial for me, never meant my race changed. It meant I was a multiracial black girl, adopted into a white family. It meant I was taken without my consent from one home, one place of origin and put inside another family, another culture, another race, one that didn’t belong to me. It meant I had to learn how to navigate my blackness and my black girlness, inside an often times racist, religious, violent and rigid white world. It meant living in a house and community that simultaneously erased me, racialized me and tokenized me. It gave me a language to articulate what was happening to me. But you know what it didn't do? It never actually changed my race. An even with all the ‘privileges’ of whiteness, even with all the education, the middle class living, camping, fishing, hunting — It never made me white.

Dr. John Raible has investigated how transracial adoptive white family members can become “transracialized” by the experiences of having Black, Brown and Asian people in their homes. In his study, he interviews siblings of black adopted people and shows how many siblings of transracial adoptees who might never have thought about race and racism are impacted. He says, “The individual can transcend the myth of color-blindness and come to a deeper understanding of the role of race and discrimination based on color-consciousness in our society.” (See Dr. Raible's work here.)

But not even this — the experience of being ‘transracialized’ and moving past the colorblind mythology the United States still so eagerly wants us to embrace, changes the race of these siblings. It doesn’t even encourage them to consider changing their race. In fact, it argues they should embrace the potential to grow by their proximity to racism and racialized violence. It argues they can be a different kind of white person, one who can operate as an ally to people of color in a real, thoughtful way. Of course, this kind of transformation is not the kind that happens often. More often than not, white mothers and fathers (and siblings) live vicariously through the “authentic cultures” of their adopted children of color. More often than not they ignore how appropriation and fetishization of culture is not at all the same as making a lifelong commitment to being an active, anti-racist ally.

The conversations around and flippant use of "transracial" to describe Ms. Dolezal’s deception (and lets be clear she has lied, profited from that lie, garnered a privileged position and has no plans to stop calling herself Black.) have been particularly triggering for me. I am a woman who through taking courses in and teaching Black Feminist Theory found solace, healing, inspiration in those sacred spaces. I am a Black woman who found my way back to the community I was taken from. The community that was the first to tell me I was beautiful when all I experienced was rejection and shame about my skin color and hair texture. As a Black woman who discovered that Black diaspora celebrated and embraced my very particular transracial adopted hybridity -- I’m angry at the dismissal of my identity and at the very real glorification of Ms. Dolezals.

As a multiracial Black person, as a transracial adoptee, I don’t take issue with racial and cultural hybridity, nor the way race and racial identity in our world is shifting. I believe in shattering notions of ‘authenticity’. I didn’t grow up in a home with mainstream media ideas about what is authentically “Black”. Does that mean because I didn't have access to Black or Filipino culture, mythologies, food, spirituality as a child that I'm not Black or Filipino? Not. Tell the authenticity police to talk to 14 year old me, sitting outside the front of my own house with my boyfriend, having the cops roll up on me and ask me what I'm doing there. But here - we are talking about race, not culture yes? (sarcasm?)

The crucial difference here is that I had and continue have no choice in my blackness. I cannot hide my skin or make myself invisible when I am protesting police terror or creating theater art for other Black women with skin like mine. I cannot manipulate what race is for my own pleasure. Ms. Dolezal is a white woman, who made choices, who used and is still using every bit of her white privilege to maintain the power and elite status she has accrued from her deception. This use of white privilege in her case is no different from transracial adoptive parents who adopt bi-racial children because they want these children to identify with the "white side” of themselves. These parents completely ignore that how they want race to function is not actually how race operates out in the world. They are completely assured of their own power to bend and change race and meanings of race at their own white whim. This manipulation is what Ms. Dolezal has done. This manipulation of race is no different from what white supremacists did in the early days of our country, moving the lines of race back and forth when it pleased them, using the language of the law, even at the cost of Black, Brown, Asian and Native lives.

I want to be clear that this is complicated. I can speculate Ms. Dolezal’s living in a transracial adoptive family and having Black brothers and sisters has impacted the ways she thinks about race. But this complexity is where the danger lies. The global system of Transracial adoption itself is too often the place where white people who desire close proximity to bodies of color, their "exotic", their “natural rhythms and cultures” make their fetish dreams come true. And hasn't Ms. Dolezal adopted her Black brother and claimed him as her son to gain authenticity? How is this different?

There are families whom after adopting across race begin to call themselves “Chinese American” after of adopting a girl from China. Um, no. You are not a Chinese American family simply because you follow the ownership model of adoption and have some kind of claim to a Chinese body of color. You are a white family with a child of color, you are a multiracial family, but no matter what, you are still White. You have a responsibility to your children to be open, honest and respectful about what experiences are yours and what experiences are theirs. You have a responsibility not to lie about the very real life and death issues that your adopted person will be facing.

Ultimately this is where I land with Ms. Dolezal. I don’t care what she has done for “the community”. I’m enraged at those of you (and I’m looking directly at you NAACP for not firing this woman) who are asking me to be “grateful” to a White woman who has “done lots of work for the black community”. This language is a line transracial adoptees have learned to obliterate and resist against years ago. We are constantly told we should be grateful we didn’t grow up in a orphanage or become a prostitute, because our own families weren’t good enough. Our Black or Brown or Third World mothers weren’t good enough. This discourse of gratefulness is part of white supremacist thinking, it is a kind of linguistic violence that asks us to silence our own experiences, to erase ourselves. It asks me to let a White person tell me how I should act, what I should feel, how I should behave and ultimately, what Blackness is. Another white woman telling me what diasporic Blackness is, what Black womanhood is? I think not.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Thu Jun-18-15 11:51 PM

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520. "^^^^of course this was ignored"
In response to Reply # 219


  

          

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Marla
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233. "Is it possible for an intersexed person not to be bisexual?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Intersex is a person born with ambiguous genitalia.

Is it possible that intersexed persons exist? If they exist is it possible that they would choose a gender identity that doesn't match their genitalia (which is generally some combination of male and female)?

  

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Lardlad95
Member since Jul 31st 2002
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:03 AM

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240. "I don't think it's a 1:1comparison."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-15-15 06:04 AM by Lardlad95

  

          

And I kind of think it's a disservice to transgender identity and racial identity to assume that the two have to be on equal footing, just because they deal with identity.

Show me the science behind being transracial, explain to me the hormonal and psychological processes that lead someone to being transracial and then I'll make the comparison. Until then I'm with holding judgement because this entire discussion is based off the actions of a liar/crazy woman.

  

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Teknontheou
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:21 AM

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241. "Are you implying that Transgenders have different biological"
In response to Reply # 240


  

          

make-up than cisgenders?

  

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MiracleRic
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Mon Jun-15-15 12:02 PM

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255. "nah, he's saying they visit doctors so it's different"
In response to Reply # 241
Mon Jun-15-15 12:06 PM by MiracleRic

  

          

which is equally odd and disturbing to me

hormones and implants = scientific is what it sounds like

as if MJ didn't effectively turn himself into a white man

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Lardlad95
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506. "Uh no, I'm saying there's scientific research that has identified"
In response to Reply # 255


  

          

being transgendered as a set of identities that we can pin point and define based on the psychological make up of an individual...I don't see transracial as having a similar grounding in science so I'm not going to do a disservice to transgender people by saying the two things are similar.

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..." -The Bard

  

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MiracleRic
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Fri Jun-19-15 07:52 AM

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522. "what research? what psychological markers?"
In response to Reply # 506


  

          

is it conclusive?

has there been research that definitively says there aren't psychological, hormonal, or biological indicators for those that bleach their skin?

body dysmorphia is treated as a psycho-social disorder

why assume it shouldn't be the same for those who attempt to go through race-related transitions?


Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Lardlad95
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505. "I said psychology and hormones."
In response to Reply # 241


  

          

I never said they were a different species or something.

Nice try though.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:49 AM

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243. "The discourse would improve so much if special care was "
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-15-15 06:58 AM by kfine

          

taken to clearly distinguish race and ethnicity in arguments, the same way sex and gender are carefully distinguished. I honestly think this is responsible for a lot of confusion. Race and sex are classified by a basket of biological indicators, period. ETHNICITY and gender are classified by a basket of participatory indicators, period. And so on.

p.s, Not arguing that the biological features currently used to categorize races have more validity than others. Just hoping the language eventually becomes more accurate because there are so many interesting opinions. I also think some arguments are being supported with examples of 'transethnicity' not 'transrace', which doesn't quite read right?



For example:

RACE VS ETHNICITY


Biological Traits (congenital)
-----------------------------

Element: race
Outer Identifiers: skin colour, hair texture, eye colour/shape, nose shape/size, etc.



Shared Experience (Participatory)
--------------------------------
Element: Ethnicity
Outer Identifiers: heritage (i.e.racial ancestry), cultural behavior,language,shared history,nationality, etc.



Societal Perception (Imposed)
----------------------------
Element: Govt Classification
Outer Identifiers: Census race/eth designation, Medical race/eth designation

Element: Discrimination
Outer Identifiers: disenfranchisement, inequity,racism, etc

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Jun-15-15 07:48 AM

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244. "Also, if we were to try to agree on a similar breakdown "
In response to Reply # 243
Mon Jun-15-15 07:52 AM by kfine

          

according to sex and gender:

SEX vs GENDER

Biological Traits (congenital)
------------------------------
Element: sex
Outer Indentifiers: Genitalia, Chromosomes, Endocrine profile (i.e. hormone levels), Sexual dimorphisms

Element: Sexual attraction
Outer Identifier: Sexual orientation (eg.hetero,bi,queer,etc.)


Shared Experience (Participatory)
---------------------------------
Element: Gender Performance
Outer Indentifiers: Clothing, Hair style/length, Makeup/grooming, Preferred name/pronoun, etc.

Element: Dating/relationships
Outer Identifier: Sexual activity (eg. M4W,T4M,etc.)


Societal Perception (Imposed)
-----------------------------
Element: Govt Classification
Outer Identifiers: Census sex designation, Medical sex designation

Element: Discrimination
Outer Identifiers: Disenfranchisement, Inequity, Misogyny, Transphobia,Homophobia, etc.


Then to me, I read a recurring question of authenticity in the discordant perspective (pro-transgender and anti-transracial). People seem to judge Trans persons on how 'thoroughly' they attempt to re-identify. So referring again to the above domains (biological vs participatory vs societal/systemic), people seem to register re-identification as inauthentic if due diligence is lacking across any of the domains. ESPECIALLY the societal/systemic domain.

With the Caitlyn Jenner vs Rachel Dolezal example, Dolezal's trans experience rubs people the wrong way because she fabricated details of her ancestry and shared history. Since Black American ancestry and shared history is so tightly integrated with the systemic discrimination experienced by the population, her fabrication comes across like a slap in the face (not necessarily my opinion, just my observation). Thus, her attempt to re-identify comes off as inauthentic and she proceeds to offend.

Jenner, on the other hand, made every attempt to challenge the identifiers across each domain that are within her power. While she
reportedly has chosen not to alter her genitalia at this time, she changed most of her remaining sexual dimorphisms (breasts, adam's apple removal, hair removal) and endocrine profile (hormone treatments). She has competely embraced female gender performance (hair/makeup, clothing, female name change). And while she has not confirmed whether there is/was/will be a change in her sexual activity, she has described a long battle of feeling gender-closeted most of her life and has already been the victim of varying levels of transphobia from both loved ones and the general public. Thus her re-identification strikes people as authentic and is more or less embraced. So much so that she can comfortably adopt the role of an LGBTQ advocate without backlash.

If a trans(-gender, -ethnic, -racial, whatever) person goes all in, shows due respect for the cause and experiences some degree of the injustices common to the population they are trying to identify with, it appears that's when they get the love.

Not my thought process, but it isn't actually that unintuitive.

  

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dafriquan
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Mon Jun-15-15 07:49 AM

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245. "This definition of race would disqualify Af-Am as black people"
In response to Reply # 243


  

          


>Element: race
>Outer Identifiers: skin colour, hair texture, eye
>colour/shape, nose shape/size, etc.
>

because these identifiers are far from uniform and run the gamut when it comes to Black as it is know and accepted in the US.

Or as you saying that Black is an ethnicity in America? cause that opens up another can of worms.



  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Jun-15-15 08:05 AM

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246. "I don't disagree that biological identifiers of race are problematic"
In response to Reply # 245
Mon Jun-15-15 08:06 AM by kfine

          

>
>>Element: race
>>Outer Identifiers: skin colour, hair texture, eye
>>colour/shape, nose shape/size, etc.
>>
>
>because these identifiers are far from uniform and run the
>gamut when it comes to Black as it is know and accepted in the
>US.
>
>Or as you saying that Black is an ethnicity in America? cause
>that opens up another can of worms.
>
>
>
>

But I don't think these identifiers disqualify Black Americans as being of black race. There are multiple combinations of each variable that, when observed, would be identified as indicating 'black race'. This is not necessarily MY belief, because I place greater weight on how a person identifies. But I do think this is how race has been defined in the books, so to speak.

And yes I do subscribe to the belief that capital 'B' Black is an ethnicity in America. It opens up a can of worms but I don't think it's invalid. It's kind of my point. People can be transethnic. And if you ask me, the word transracial should be restricted to cases that include intentional reconstruction of biological features (eg. Negroid, Mongoloid, etc.) to mimic those historically recognized as indicating a different race. There are plenty of examples of this (eg. Skin bleaching or darkening, silky weave/relaxer, eye colour surgery, eye shape surgery, etc.). And I think Dolezal qualifies. In fact, it seems the only reason famous people like Vybez Cartel,Sammy Sosa or Tiny (TI's wife) are not considered transracial is because of this ongoing conflation of race and ethnicity. These individuals maintain strong ETHNIC identities so nobody really laments that they are reconstructing their historically negroid features to look caucasian, even though that is exactly what they're doing lol.

Likewise, nteresting transethnicity examples might be Iggy Azalea and Eminem. They have made no attempts to reconstruct their biological features to those that are historically identified as indicating 'black race', but they very diligently embrace Black American ethnicity by adopting Black American cultural behavior, language, etc.

  

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Starbaby Jones
Member since Mar 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-15-15 10:36 AM

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248. "This implies that trans people are trying to pass as cis..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and that's not the case. Trans people don't claim to be biological men or women. They don't try to act as if they've inherited the struggles of cis men or women, as they have their own. They're only seeking the freedom of their own gender expression. If Rachel Dolezal was aiming at expressing blackness as an expansion of racial expression rather than adopting blackness and its legacy of struggle, I could maybe see it for her. However, she's doing something completely different. So, if there are people trying to make "transracial" an actual thing, she's the last person you should use as an example.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
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Mon Jun-15-15 12:39 PM

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258. "^^^ this is where her story doesn't work for me"
In response to Reply # 248


          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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259. "Again, complete utter bullshit. "
In response to Reply # 248


  

          

>and that's not the case. Trans people don't claim to be
>biological men or women.


There are plenty of transwomen who describe themselves not as transwomen but just plain women.

Infact, a person would be considered a dickhead and a jerk if they started pressing the issue and asking about their anatomy and what parts they were born with. You know this is true.

They don't try to act as if they've
>inherited the struggles of cis men or women, as they have
>their own. They're only seeking the freedom of their own
>gender expression. If Rachel Dolezal was aiming at expressing
>blackness as an expansion of racial expression rather than
>adopting blackness and its legacy of struggle, I could maybe
>see it for her.


Let me get this straight, you would be down for her if she HADN'T became an advocate for black people and working towards improving the lives of black people?

How ass backwards does that sound?


However, she's doing something completely
>different. So, if there are people trying to make
>"transracial" an actual thing, she's the last person you
>should use as an example.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
Member since Mar 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-15-15 12:54 PM

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261. "Try again..."
In response to Reply # 259
Mon Jun-15-15 12:54 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

>There are plenty of transwomen who describe themselves not as
>transwomen but just plain women.

Who? I cannot think of a single trans person claiming biological sex. For the purposes of gendered pronouns, of course, they prefer that you use the one that matches their gender expression, but they are not trying to be cis. They know that they are different. The vast majority are seeking an expansion of gender expression. Give me the names of the scores of trans people who are claiming cis gender.

>Infact, a person would be considered a dickhead and a jerk if
>they started pressing the issue and asking about their anatomy
>and what parts they were born with. You know this is true.

Obviously, that is the case, as it's rude to ask about anybody's genitalia. That said, if you have a dialogue with actual trans people, they may or may not change their biological sex. That, however, doesn't affect their gender expression. They can express their gender with or without the accompanying genitalia. Again, they are only seeking to have their gender expression respected, not to r assimilate as a cis gendered person.

> They don't try to act as if they've
>>inherited the struggles of cis men or women, as they have
>>their own. They're only seeking the freedom of their own
>>gender expression. If Rachel Dolezal was aiming at
>expressing
>>blackness as an expansion of racial expression rather than
>>adopting blackness and its legacy of struggle, I could maybe
>>see it for her.
>
>
>Let me get this straight, you would be down for her if she
>HADN'T became an advocate for black people and working towards
>improving the lives of black people?
>
>How ass backwards does that sound?

I was speaking in an extreme hypothetical and you're trying to attach shit to my words that I didn't say. I said, if she were talking about expanding what it means to be black or even notions of racial expression in those terms, I could see having a conversation. That doesn't mean I'd accept it. It means, I'd be willing to entertain a conversation about it. Given the current set of circumstances surrounding her story, comparing her to trans people makes zero fucking sense. Trans people are not seeking to pass for cis people, they are seeking they're own space in the realm of gender expression. That is a completely different thing.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:05 PM

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269. "You're talking like everyone has a Masters degree in gender studies..."
In response to Reply # 261


          

Do you think the average person knows the difference between sex and gender?

In practical, real life terms, there transwomen/men who for all intents and purposes are women/men.

They look like women, act like women, identify as women, and present as women.

You want to get into gender theory talking about sex vs gender, but it doesn't have to be that deep.

Wasn't there a post recently where a transwomen was killed after her boyfriend found out her secret?

People here were arguing that she shouldn't out herself early on in the relationship as transgender for fear of potential violence

_______________________________________

  

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Starbaby Jones
Member since Mar 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:20 PM

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271. "I get that not everyone pays attention to these issues"
In response to Reply # 269
Mon Jun-15-15 03:20 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

but black people should be tuned in to racial studies enough to peep the difference. Keep in mind that trans people came up with the prefixes "trans" and "cis" to differentiate themselves from biological men and women, because they are well aware of the difference. Presenting their gender expression is not them trying to "pass" as a biological man/woman. Put simply, they are just expressing themselves. There is no deception in that. That is what it is.


>In practical, real life terms, there transwomen/men who for
>all intents and purposes are women/men.
>
>They look like women, act like women, identify as women, and
>present as women.

The thing is, you're imprinting your ideas on them. When you talk to these people, themselves, they are not trying to be cis gendered people. They make their own distinctions, enough so to come up with their own widely-accepted language to describe themselves

>You want to get into gender theory talking about sex vs
>gender, but it doesn't have to be that deep.

It's damn near impossible for it not to get that deep, when discussing subjects as nuanced as race and gender.

>Wasn't there a post recently where a transwomen was killed
>after her boyfriend found out her secret?

So, we're going for the Fox News tactic of extrapolating an individual situation with no context to an entire population of people?

>People here were arguing that she shouldn't out herself early
>on in the relationship as transgender for fear of potential
>violence

As far as the need for people to disclose personal information, well there's no set rule of engagement when it comes to any relationship. It depends heavily on the parties involved and what they're comfortable with. They are responsible for negotiating the terms of their involvement. All of us are welcome to our own opinions, but, ultimately, people have to do what works for them.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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270. "You sayin that transwomen don't describe themselves as "women"?"
In response to Reply # 261


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
Member since Mar 08th 2003
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:22 PM

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272. "They describe themselves as trans women. "
In response to Reply # 270


  

          

They created terms to differentiate themselves for a reason. So, they are fully aware of the differences between them and biological men/women. They are not trying to "pass" as cis gendered. They are seeking to expand gender expression on their own terms.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:31 PM

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274. "Yep yep."
In response to Reply # 272


          

Trans woman are not trying to 'claim' those experiences they are not privy too. Ie growing up in a world that sexualizes your body.....menstruation.....

  

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SoWhat
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282. "i have known a few trans men and women."
In response to Reply # 270


  

          

my FTM homie didn't identify himself as trans...but after i found out he didn't deny it either. and i found out b/c his roommate told me about a video he'd seen of my homie getting pounded in his vagina. based on that i'd say the homie doesn't hide his trans identity or seek to pass as a cis man. i now know he's trans and it hasn't changed anything between us. we still cool.

i had a MTF coworker who was out as trans. she never hid it but didn't wear it on her sleeve either. she didn't introduce like 'Hi, I'm Jane and i'm a trans woman' but she didn't run from her truth either.

i know another MTF woman who works as a server in a restaurant and performs at a club. she will pull her dick out at a moment's notice! but otherwise she's not clockable, really. she doesn't run from her truth either.

i had a crush on another FTM guy who also doesn't hide his truth. he didn't tell me str8 up that he's trans but i found out when someone else brought it up in a conversation w/him. he never shied from it.

but yes i've also heard stories about trans men and women who have gone to certain lengths to keep ppl from knowing they are trans. they do it largely due to transphobia - their own internalized transphobia and that they encounter from the outside world. i dunno what to make of those stories in light of the current conversation.

fuck you.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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286. "The ones I've known/know freely identify themselves."
In response to Reply # 282


  

          

Granted, my experience is from trans activists. So, that may be a factor. From my understanding, people at the forefront of those movements are careful with their language to ensure that they carve out their own place in the realm of gender expression.

I view people lying about their gender expression amidst transphobia the same way I do gay people lying about their sexual orientation amidst homophobia. People do what they have to do to survive. However, as society opens up and widens views of gender expression, I see more and more people proclaiming their identities. The trans part of the LGBT movement is decades behind the rest of the movement. People are still barely able to differentiate their place in the realm of sexual politics, hence all the clumsy language around trans people.

So, I don't view those examples you mentioned as contrary to my original point. As trans people become more vocal, I don't see them attempting to pass. I see them as fighting for their right to exist on the spectrum of gender expression.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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SoWhat
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289. "i agree."
In response to Reply # 286


  

          

fuck you.

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Mon Jun-15-15 07:45 PM

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327. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 286


  

          

>Granted, my experience is from trans activists. So, that may
>be a factor. From my understanding, people at the forefront
>of those movements are careful with their language to ensure
>that they carve out their own place in the realm of gender
>expression.
>
>I view people lying about their gender expression amidst
>transphobia the same way I do gay people lying about their
>sexual orientation amidst homophobia. People do what they have
>to do to survive. However, as society opens up and widens
>views of gender expression, I see more and more people
>proclaiming their identities. The trans part of the LGBT
>movement is decades behind the rest of the movement. People
>are still barely able to differentiate their place in the
>realm of sexual politics, hence all the clumsy language around
>trans people.
>
>So, I don't view those examples you mentioned as contrary to
>my original point. As trans people become more vocal, I don't
>see them attempting to pass. I see them as fighting for their
>right to exist on the spectrum of gender expression.


She is at the lying level but not just that she attempted to co-opt experiences and movements that is damaging.

I dont have a problem with a White, Latino, Asain person teaching Af-Am history/art or joining black organizations to further causes and fight injustices

The problem is lying about your past to further legitimize if not try to gain a superior stance within the community

I wonder if she realized that her likely discomfort w her status at HU lead her to seek status in a very white centered way

It would be classic Irish or Italian going white in this country
But I saw those as more erasing the personal past rather than inventing experiences
And the American xenophobic encouragement to be "more American"

Rather like af-am's used to do to immigrant blacks identified as other
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:02 PM

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303. "a lot of people have this view"
In response to Reply # 259


  

          

>There are plenty of transwomen who describe themselves not as
>transwomen but just plain women.

There's a episode of Catfish with a transwoman on it. At the end, Nev Schulman and Max Joseph do this little PSA of sorts where they both declare that "Trangender women are REAL WOMEN".

You also have Marie Claire running an article back in April titled "Trans Women *Are* Real Women: Janet Mock on How Her Role Models Shaped Her Journey"

http://www.marieclaire.com/beauty/news/a14161/my-transgender-beauty-role-models/


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:27 PM

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310. "Did you read the article you posted?"
In response to Reply # 303
Mon Jun-15-15 06:28 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

Because she refers to herself as a trans woman throughout it. It actually proves my point.

edit: Also, Catfish is your source of understanding trans identity? For real? There is a breadth of information at your disposal. Do better.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:59 PM

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319. "you really can't be this stupid in real life"
In response to Reply # 310


  

          

>Because she refers to herself as a trans woman throughout it.
>It actually proves my point.
>
>edit: Also, Catfish is your source of understanding trans
>identity? For real? There is a breadth of information at your
>disposal. Do better.

The point is that there are people out there that will declare with their mouth and heart that transwomen are REAL women.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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322. "Are YOU this stupid? "
In response to Reply # 319
Mon Jun-15-15 07:12 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

The article is about the legitimacy or "realness" of trans womanhood, not appropriation. You must've done horribly at reading comprehension in school. Real does not mean biological, because, you know, words mean things.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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ShinobiShaw
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249. "A+ post would read again"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://soundcloud.com/djshinobishaw
http://www.rareformnyc.com
http://twitter.com/DJShinobiShaw
https://twitter.com/RareFormNYC
PSN: ShinobiShaw

"Arm Leg Leg Arm How you doin?" (c)T510

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Mon Jun-15-15 11:12 AM

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251. "She resigned. (very short swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/06/15/rachel-dolezal-resigns-as-president-of-naacp-spokane-chapter/

Rachel Dolezal, the civil rights activist in Washington state who has come under fire for her disputed racial identity, said Monday she was stepping down as president of the NAACP’s Spokane chapter.

  

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SoWhat
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253. "smart move."
In response to Reply # 251


  

          

maybe now the org can move on while she deals w/the fallout from the story.

fuck you.

  

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akon
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260. "after reading the post: one is made-up and the other is real"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

which makes sense

because it is championing the cause of an admitted fraud.

what's the agenda here?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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265. "All social constructs are made up. That's why it's a social construct. "
In response to Reply # 260


  

          

What you are basically saying but trying to avoid saying bluntly (same for everyone saying "one is a thing, and the other is not a thing") is that one is accepted and the other is not.



>which makes sense
>
>because it is championing the cause of an admitted fraud.
>
>what's the agenda here?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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akon
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273. "no, im very clear on what i mean"
In response to Reply # 265


  

          

one is an issue that people struggle with,
identity and not just as a social construct but also biological

race, yes is also social construct that bears material meaning, repercussion, expression etc
in this country, race is a stand-in for ethnicity

with this particular scenario
people are trying to make transrace a thing when its really about a woman who chose to lie
that's not a 'thing'
if it was, we would have more examples of people
coming out to define what their transrace'ism is

we dont, we are instead arguing hypotheticals.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Teknontheou
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:36 PM

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276. "Transrace has been a term used alot with people of one race"
In response to Reply # 273


  

          

raised by people of another race (adoptions). So, at the very least, the word has been out there in research as scholarly discussions for a while (I just found out about it when all this started.) So there's that.

But almost all things start off as not being things. This has the potential to make transrace an even fuller thing than it has been up to now.

  

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akon
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288. "in the context of this house that rachel built?"
In response to Reply # 276


  

          

there's no such thing as transrace
of course people who associate, identify, are raised by a particular group of people
identify with that group of people- culturally etc
assimilation happens everywhere
thats not what we are discussing here- and not especially when we put up transgender issues next to it

so no, its not a thing

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Teknontheou
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292. "Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? I think it might be."
In response to Reply # 288


  

          


>so no, its not a thing

  

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Goldmind
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Mon Jun-15-15 05:23 PM

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296. "LOL, yall are so pressed. "Tomorrow transclass might be a thing!""
In response to Reply # 292


          

"What about the children who are born poor but feel like millionaires inside?! Why is it that transgender people have special rights but transclass people don't?!"

  

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Teknontheou
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297. "*Kanye shrug* All types of things might become normal in "
In response to Reply # 296


  

          

another 50 years. I'm not as smart as you are, so I can't predict the future like that.

  

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Goldmind
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Mon Jun-15-15 05:55 PM

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299. "Like bestiality, right? "
In response to Reply # 297


          

>I'm not as smart as you are, so I can't predict the future like that.

The future could be full of uncertainty and chaos, thanks to the social justice warriors who've forced us to stop participating in the transphobia that contributes to the high rates of violence against people like Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox. Now that we've started down this slippery slope of acceptance, here is how the next 50 years could go:

First come the transgenders.
Then the transracials.
Then the transclassers.
And then the dog f**kers.

A transgender transracial transclass dog f**ker could very well be the face of Vanity Fair tomorrow. If you allow one, you have to allow them all!!

  

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denny
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Mon Jun-15-15 05:56 PM

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301. "I think that's an oversimplification of what's being discussed here."
In response to Reply # 299


          

  

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Teknontheou
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304. "Let him have his fun, it makes him feel better."
In response to Reply # 301
Mon Jun-15-15 06:08 PM by Teknontheou

  

          

I don't really mind it because reasonable people reading what I'm writing will not take it all the way left like he just did.

  

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Goldmind
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:14 PM

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306. "Let's get beyond "what" and talk about "who." "
In response to Reply # 301


          

WHO are these transracial people you are discussing, these marginalized souls whose stories are similar to those of transgender people? Who specifically are some of these people who were born in the wrong body and must now transition into the correct race?

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Jun-15-15 06:16 PM

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307. "I've never met one."
In response to Reply # 306
Mon Jun-15-15 06:24 PM by denny

          

But I don't need to meet one for it to exist. Apparently, adopted children are the most likeliest candidates to feel this way.

In anycase....this weekend has forced me to refine my view on trans identities of any sort. That being, a trans person should not attempt to lay claim to the experiences of the identity they seek that they are not privy too. IE Caitly Jenner should not absolve the male privilege that she did receive while growing up despite of how she felt inside. I hadn't really considered that point before. But it stands as a counter to a common feminist argument against the legitimacy of trans women. So really, this conversation has helped me refute even more arguments against trans identities....not justify dog-fucking.

  

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Goldmind
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312. "Meeting one isn't a prerequisite for discussing an example."
In response to Reply # 307


          


  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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317. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 312


          

lol

  

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Teknontheou
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321. "LOL."
In response to Reply # 317


  

          

I was like "wasn't that the second thing he said?"

  

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Teknontheou
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308. "From what I've read, alot are transracial adoptees"
In response to Reply # 306


  

          

http://www.thelostdaughters.com/2015/06/transracial-lives-matter-rachel-dolezal.html



Also, this is a pretty good article I read, too.

http://www.thefeministwire.com/2015/06/race-and-gender-are-not-the-same-is-not-a-good-response-to-the-transracial-transgender-question-or-we-can-and-must-do-better/

  

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Goldmind
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316. "Now we're getting somewhere. "
In response to Reply # 308


          

>http://www.thelostdaughters.com/2015/06/transracial-lives-matter-rachel-dolezal.html

Here, finally, we have a definition for what it means to be transracial from the mouth of a transracial woman herself -- and not surprisingly, it differs greatly from the way you and other men in here are trying to portray it:

"The 'trans' in transracial for me, never meant my race changed. It meant I was a multiracial black girl, adopted into a white family. It meant I was taken without my consent from one home, one place of origin and put inside another family, another culture, another race, one that didn’t belong to me."


Here's what she says about white people who think they can bend the rules on race:

"These parents completely ignore that how they want race to function is not actually how race operates out in the world. They are completely assured of their own power to bend and change race and meanings of race at their own white whim. This manipulation is what Ms. Dolezal has done. This manipulation of race is no different from what white supremacists did in the early days of our country, moving the lines of race back and forth when it pleased them, using the language of the law, even at the cost of Black, Brown, Asian and Native lives."

Now this is the transracial conversation that we should be having.

  

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Teknontheou
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323. "Lol, I literally never heard of it until last week."
In response to Reply # 316


  

          

So I am NOT the authority on how transracialism has been defined up to now. I'm learning.

  

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Goldmind
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330. "This clearly explains why you kept relying on fictional scenarios"
In response to Reply # 323


          

>So I am NOT the authority on how transracialism has been
>defined up to now. I'm learning.

I was pushing for real world examples for a reason. The transgender movement is about real people's lives. The transracial conversation that you are having is about your misunderstanding, much of it fueled by your imagination.

I also suspect, of course, that it's about your negative attitudes toward transgender identity. I doubt you've given the real-life struggle for LGBT rights even a fraction of the the advocacy that you've lended to a hypothetical plight that you first heard about last week.

  

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Teknontheou
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331. "Oh, ok."
In response to Reply # 330


  

          

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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338. "*dancehall horns*"
In response to Reply # 330


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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SoWhat
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302. "lol. Yup."
In response to Reply # 299


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Teknontheou
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305. "You don't need to fear that transrace might cause people to turn"
In response to Reply # 299


  

          

on the strides that LGBTQ has made in the last 20 years. Well, at least I don't think you need to fear it - it seems you do, though.

Everything is not out to get you and won't lead to you being put in chains, or whatever. You can stop policing the boundaries of race so hard. The White Walkers aren't gonna try to tear down the entire Wall.

If the Korean girl down the block feels in her heart that she's really Mexican? I say go for it. Same for Caitlyn and Janet.

  

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Goldmind
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309. "And you don't need to fear the transclassers. Or the beastiality mvmt. "
In response to Reply # 305
Mon Jun-15-15 06:25 PM by Goldmind

          

We will deal with what comes tomorrow. Yall just need to focus on not fuking up urgent issues that we're actually facing today.

  

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Teknontheou
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311. "You're probably right - I don't detect much of a threat from either of "
In response to Reply # 309
Mon Jun-15-15 06:31 PM by Teknontheou

  

          

those things.

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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275. "several"
In response to Reply # 260
Mon Jun-15-15 03:41 PM by lfresh

  

          

>
>what's the agenda here?

- Transphobics
- Black males who like nothing better than to give white women passes
- White folk whose social circles consist primarily of black people finding this highly appealing


Oh wait
Then what really seems to be behind this and you will notice the gotcha game on the boards with a lot of non black posters thinking the playing field is level and their biases are no worse than blacks:
Por ejemplo
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/rachel-dolezal-discrimination-lawsuit-786451


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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akon
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291. "she sued howard for white discrimination? wtf?"
In response to Reply # 275


  

          


>http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/rachel-dolezal-discrimination-lawsuit-786451
>

so is she black is she white
at that time was her black on the inside self asleep?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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denny
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294. "oh my lord."
In response to Reply # 275
Mon Jun-15-15 04:54 PM by denny

          

I was not suspecting THIS twist. Holeeeeeeeeee.

It goes with what I've assumed about her motivations all along though. At the end of the day....she is seeking victim-status. Every single element of this story can be explained in that way.

Not to mention....it feeds into her motivation in seeking a more credible, legitimate voice in the social justice world. She felt silenced as a white woman. So her answer was to pretend she was black.

  

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Goldmind
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295. "Bingo. Reply #188"
In response to Reply # 275


          

This discussion is being dominated by a bunch of men who, as SarahBellum has pointed out, never understood or approved of the idea of transgenderism and now want to discredit the people who let them know that their dusty approval wasn't needed.

They got salt all up and inbetween their keys.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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345. "are you saying your dusty approval isnt needed for transracial?"
In response to Reply # 295


          

>This discussion is being dominated by a bunch of men who, as
>SarahBellum has pointed out, never understood or approved of
>the idea of transgenderism and now want to discredit the
>people who let them know that their dusty approval wasn't
>needed.
>
>They got salt all up and inbetween their keys.
>
>

who is the "decider"

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Goldmind
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361. "Yep. These transracial people in your imagination don't need my approval"
In response to Reply # 345


          

.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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267. "here is the thing. Rachel is no Rosa Park (and definitely not a saint)...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Listen if Rachel D. lied on forms to receive benefits for minorities, she is wrong.

If she lied about being the victim of racial harrasment, again, of course she is wrong.

However, so much of the coverage of her being a "racial fraud" isn't based on those facts, so much of it is written has to do with her appearance. Denny in this post made it about her rocking braids.

Folks have even turned the clear virtue of dedicating her work to racial social justice issues of evidence of her fraud. That's ass backwards in my opinion.

I'd thought black people would be weary of the Fox News classic "XYZ is no saint" argument. What do her braids and style of dress have to do with whether she lied on forms or faked racial harrasment complaints?



>Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight,
>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?
>
>I'm not particularly interested in the conservative opinion
>here, whereby they think transgendered *and* transracial are
>silly concepts not worthy of equal rights under the law.
>
>I'm more interested in the progressive opinion - whereby in
>one respect, the cause of transgendered people is championed,
>yet on the flip side, the mere mention of transracial is a
>crime worthy of condemnation and clowning.
>
>Do tell.
>
>-->


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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277. "You aren't being intellectually honest."
In response to Reply # 267


          

My problem with her hair was that she was presenting it as natural when it wasn't. Thereby deceptively attaching herself to (or 'claiming') a burden that black woman talk about concerning their natural hair being judged under certain social structures.

I have no problem with white woman who want hairstyles we normally associate with black woman. At all.

  

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lfresh
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:43 PM

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280. "Someone wrote a think piece complimenting her do's to boot"
In response to Reply # 277


  

          

It's not the hair exclusively
Her transgressions crossover in multiple ways
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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denny
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Mon Jun-15-15 03:46 PM

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281. "the hair is the best example to me."
In response to Reply # 280


          

Because it clearly shows how she is absolving herself of having white privilege and trying to lay claim to a burden that she doesn't really have.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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290. "So I guess you find weaves deceptive too huh?"
In response to Reply # 277


  

          

>My problem with her hair was that she was presenting it as
>natural when it wasn't.


Let's be real. A "natural" is a hairstyle and thats how she described her hairstyle.

But I think that's all kind of besides the point. Does anyone see the ridiculous of using a facebook post about her hairstyle to make the case that she did something terrible?

So she mislead people about her appearance in a facebook post? Who gives a shit? Every fat person doing shoulder up close up picture to not reveal how overweight they are are misleading people on facebook. Every scrub taking pictures in front of someoneelses car is misleading people on facebook. Nobody cares about that and are writing thought pieces about that.

But y'all clinging to that like that's a good enough basis to stop her from doing the good work that everyone seems to acknowledge that she was doing at the NAACP.

How active are any of y'all with your local NAACP?

Again, want to talk about whether or not shake faked hate crimes? cool. If she were stealing minority set asides. Cool.

Want to talk about misleading FB Posts? Petty and just plain hating.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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298. "what if she sued Howard University for racial discrimination?"
In response to Reply # 290


          

And stated in her lawsuit that the campus was 'permeated with discriminatory intimidation, ridicule, and insult' towards her, as a (then) self-identified white woman? Cause the link is provided above.

Would that convince you to stop being facetious?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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344. "What do you know about Howard? If being mad at Howard about how you"
In response to Reply # 298


  

          

were treated and how the school was run disqualifies you as being black then there are a lot of black howard alum who no longer can check that black box.

And god bless Howard, I support the school and their mission. My pops went there and my brother, but it is not the best run place.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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283. "OK, but can we be clear about something? She IS a FRAUD."
In response to Reply # 267


  

          

Now does that make her a terrible person? No. Does it make her any less committed to the principles she espouses? Maybe not. But she created a life that was based largely on a misrepresentation, and thus by definition she is a fraud.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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ndibs
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314. "I think they gave someone jail time here "
In response to Reply # 283


          

For faking a hate crime. She's definitely on that terrible person continuum.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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352. "Do you think she is a fraud because of her appearance?"
In response to Reply # 283


  

          

">But she created a life that was based largely on a
>misrepresentation, and thus by definition she is a fraud."

Your definition of fraud would encompass a lot of transgendered people you know.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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333. "heres the thing with that"
In response to Reply # 267
Mon Jun-15-15 11:33 PM by lfresh

  

          

>Folks have even turned the clear virtue of dedicating her work
>to racial social justice issues of evidence of her fraud.

she did this
and her motives are clearly about herself not about the work these programs do
but about the amount of control, social climbing and access she was able to do in her guise and she feels she would not have been able as a white woman

its not a "clear virtue" at all


i think it was on tumblr that folks started clowning all of these white kids that went to africa people started noticing mad white kids had a shot with a "poor african" voluntourism i think they called it

her "work" reminds me of that
its very self directed
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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285. "I'M CHINESE NOW. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm not being glib.

If I speak and read standard Mandarin.

Eat, drink, inhale/exhale Fukienese culture.

Renounce any trappings of Western culture.

Take a Fukienese wife, raise our children as Fukienese.

Am I Fukienese?

Or am I still a fat balding Westerner who has adopted a culture as expression of privilege, because as a fat balding Westerner, there are no explicit limitations on what I am allowed?

I understand the argument -- that as social constructs, race and gender share malleability -- and as I stated before, there are certainly overlapping issues. But I can convincingly change my biology to be a woman. A fat, hirsute, water buffalo of a woman, but one with a working vajay-jay and functional female biology. I mean, I can't think of anyone who'd recommend it, because we already have Rebel Wilson, but the technology and societal structures exist to accommodate that kind of change, and it's a transition that is largely egalitarian:barring physiological complications any man can become a woman and vice versa.

'Transracial' is limited, because there are no mechanisms by which any race can genuinely change from one to another. There is 'passing', which is essentially going undercover, but that's not the same, and doesn't imply the same level of malleability as transgender. There are certainly episodes of crossover and adoption -- Black Seminoles, Jewish Cossacks -- but again, those aren't 'genuine' transracial episodes insofar as they have to be qualified with a prefix -- 'Black' Seminole, 'Jewish' Cossack -- because the core race in question is still distinct, separate, and impervious to conversion.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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287. "same trap though."
In response to Reply # 285


          

A transsexual person needn't change their biological make-up in order for their identity to be acceptable. We want to be accepting of transsexuals who are fine with 'passing' as well. Also, according to your criteria....it was only legitimate to be a transsexual AFTER our technology allowed for biological transition.

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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315. "but technology still doesn't allow for it 100%"
In response to Reply # 287


  

          

>A transsexual person needn't change their biological make-up
>in order for their identity to be acceptable. We want to be
>accepting of transsexuals who are fine with 'passing' as well.
> Also, according to your criteria....it was only legitimate to
>be a transsexual AFTER our technology allowed for biological
>transition.

Transwomen still have no uterus, no ovaries, no cervix, and no eggs. They still don't have periods and god forbid they stop taking their hormones and start showing tell-tale signs of being biologically male (i.e. facial hair, changes in musculature, fat redistribution, etc).

Transmen have similar issues, Technology still can't give them a functional dick, balls, or prostate which means no semen or sperm and no fucking her right in the pussy. Also, if for some reason they're without their hormones for a period of time they will begin to show signs of being biologically female (i.e. loss of facial hair, changes in musculature, and fat redistribution).

Bottom line, technology only allows for a more convincing level of passing, but make no mistake: It's still just passing.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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denny
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320. "Fine."
In response to Reply # 315


          

But this only goes to the point that being able to biologically transition should not be a criteria for the legitimacy of trans identities.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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293. "But you don't need mechanisms to change from one race to another. "
In response to Reply # 285


  

          

The very nature of race as a social construct means that we can just simply change the definition to suit whatever purpose we want.

And that definition has already changes or place and time.

My bi-racial friend in Kenya was considered White in Kenya but was deemed black when she came to the states. We use to have huge fights in college because I tried to force her to accept that she was black in the status (as oppose to bi-racial). It took me a while but in retrospect I realize I didn't have the right to decide for her what she was.

All over the world we know of other places that don't ascribe to our binary black or white racial categories (doesn't brazil have like 10 catergories).

Even in the US our racial categories seem to be changing. No one really strongly supports the one drop rule. Bi-racial wasn't a respectable category even when I was a kid. Shit changes.

Either there is a biological basis or it's a social construct and if it's a social construct then we are making up the rules as we go along and we decide whether or not it's a thing.






















**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Mongo
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339. "Okay. SHAZAM. Now you're White. Thank me later. "
In response to Reply # 293


  

          

  

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Utamaroho
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300. "lolz. if it weren't for okp..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

, i would never come across this shit in real life. thanks gang!

Red, Black, Green

  

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akon
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313. "what's the agenda behind making this non-thing into a thing?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

can someone clearly spell it out for me?




and because its a hpothetical we should stop comparing it with something that is real
and has a huge impact on people's lives

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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SoWhat
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318. "an attempt to paint transgender advocates into a corner"
In response to Reply # 313


  

          

where once they posit that trans*insert category here* isn't real then they're forced to also admit that transgenderism isn't real. or is as ridiculous as trans___.

as has been pointed out - the folks taking this position are many of the same ppl who argue that issuance of marriage licenses to same sex couples will result in issuance of marriage licenses to ppl who wanna marry their dogs or their cars, et al. not everyone on that side of the discussion as so intellectually dishonest - there are some who genuinely see transracialism as a thing or at least a possibility. but the loudest voices sure seem to be bent on discrediting a movement of queers fighting for their civil rights.

fuck you.

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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Mon Jun-15-15 07:13 PM

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324. "I would embrace transracial if it gives bi/multiracial people a voice"
In response to Reply # 318


  

          

>there are some who genuinely see
>transracialism as a thing or at least a possibility. but the
>loudest voices sure seem to be bent on discrediting a movement
>of queers fighting for their civil rights.

Or at least a choice in how we define ourselves. Whether I identify as Black, Native, or both should be my choice and mine alone.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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SoWhat
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326. "sure. but that's not what's going on."
In response to Reply # 324
Mon Jun-15-15 07:20 PM by SoWhat

  

          

the #transrace thing as evidenced by the conversation about this Rachel woman isn't about multiracial ppl identifying as they see fit. it's about ppl who allegedly feel the race w/which they identify doesn't match their body. it's about alleged white ppl who feel black inside and want the world to accept them as black ppl. or black ppl who feel Asian inside wanting the world to accept them as Asian. Asians who feel Latino wanting the world to accept them as such. and on and on.

the multi-racial thing is something else.

this ain't about ppl like Tiger Woods as much as it's about fictional ppl - this Rachel woman being the primary example in the public debate.

fuck you.

  

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PoppaGeorge
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328. "but now that its out there, can it be steered in a legitimate direction?"
In response to Reply # 326


  

          

>this ain't about ppl like Tiger Woods as much as it's about
>fictional ppl - this Rachel woman being the primary example in
>the public debate.

Or will this chick keep the debate squarely on her lone experience.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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SoWhat
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370. "probably not."
In response to Reply # 328


  

          

b/c what you're talking about is NOT 'transracial' at all.

fuck you.

  

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PoppaGeorge
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427. "so then someone like my Grandmother is?"
In response to Reply # 370


  

          

My grandmother was adopted by a Black family straight off the reservation before her 1st birthday. She was raised the same way as her siblings in her new family. Growing up, folks around town just knew her as a light skinned black chick and this fit with the family as they're all lighter Black folks.

As far as she knew, she was black. She knew no different... Until she was told she was adopted and was Native. People in that city still see her as a Black woman, though she isn't. Though she will tell you she's Native if you ask and now identifies as such, she's still has a Black identity and many people know her as a Black woman.

If she were to say "fuck it, I'm Black", would we have a problem with this?

My wife's Great Grandmother had a very similar story, being raised Black and all, yet she's also full blooded Native the difference being that she acknowledged her being Native, yet identified as a Black woman because that's what her life experiences were.

Do we have a problem with her identifying as Black even though she was Native?

  

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SoWhat
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434. "sure."
In response to Reply # 427


  

          

yeah.

fuck you.

  

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PoppaGeorge
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329. "right, but..."
In response to Reply # 326


  

          

>it's about
>alleged white ppl who feel black inside and want the world to
>accept them as black ppl.

... I"m sure you know white cats raised from birth in the hood that are genuinely immersed in black culture to the point that if it wasn't for the color of their skin you'd swear up and down that you were dealing with a bruh like any other.

Should one of them look at themselves in the mirror one day and say "You know what Jhaqueil? I'm Black..." do we really have a problem with this? I mean, aside from the whole "nigga" shits coming out of their mouth, and even then a lot of them dudes raised in those environments get a pass on it from Black folks that they grew up with.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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theprofessional
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325. "yep, anybody tying this to caitlyn jenner is telling on themself"
In response to Reply # 318


  

          

either as someone who's not entirely comfortable with recent LGBT progress or just someone with poor critical thinking skills.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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337. "That's not really true at all. Go back to the original Jenner posts. "
In response to Reply # 325


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12716879&mesg_id=12716879&listing_type=search

CaseOne is a clown so you can dismiss him (but at least he is being consistent anti-Catilyn and Anti-Rachel) but cats like John Forte and LegsDiamond are also being consistent in defending Jenner and this lady.

What's hilarious to me (and I think extremely intellectually dishonest) is folks are taking the position that the progressive position is to NOT be open minded about this and accepting of an individual's personal decision to express their identity in a way that is comfortable to them. Conversely they are arguing that it is an agenda of the close minded and the conservative to be ACCEPTING of this.

This might be true of the people who were anti-Catilyn and pro-Rachel. But who are those people here?

And also how do you explain the people who are pro-Catilyn and pro-Rachel like Legsdiamond and John Forte and a shit ton of people in my facebook feed?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 08:12 AM

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340. "well, hold on a minute... "
In response to Reply # 337


          

I still think Jenner is a dude.

my angle has always been if you open up that door to let someone self identity you better be ready to defend anyone else who wants to self identity when it comes to race or whatever comes next.

I don't see how sowhat calls people assholes or bigots for not accepting someone self identifying as the opposite sex yet when the discussion of transrace comes up he isn't ready to fight for their right to self identity.

Rachel lied and comes off selfish and privileged at times... people say she hurt others by stealing a job or 2.

but here is where it gets crazy. There is a man who changed his sex to a woman and now he gets in an octagon and BEATS WOMEN UP AND GETS PAID TO DO IT.

it's hypocritical as fuck to see the same people fighting for one group running in here to stop a discussion on racelial identity because they feel that struggle belongs to them.

As a Black man I don't want a white man telling me he knows my struggle because he identifies as Black... and is that really any different than a man 9r woman saying they don't want the opposite sex to cross over and use their bathrooms or be called something they haven't been for x amount of years?

they always say "who is Caitlyn hurting?"

well, who is Rachel or the next white Malik hurting? besides personal feelings?

what's funny as well is while Rachel does come across touched in the head... I bet the first person to say they were a woman trapped in a man's body were seen as crazy too.

seems like people want progress until it steps in their toes.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Goldmind
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:01 AM

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348. "And here we have it"
In response to Reply # 340


          

>I still think Jenner is a dude.

Yassss, live in your truth!! I encourage your comrades in here to do the same.

>my angle has always been if you open up that door to let
>someone self identity you better be ready to defend anyone
>else who wants to self identity when it comes to race or
>whatever comes next.

I knew that this was the agenda behind many of the people pushing this transrace conversation. Yall thought that you'd discovered the perfect slippery slope, one that would counter pro-transgender arguments. Thank you for putting the silly pretenses to rest.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:08 AM

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349. "i have never hid my hand on OKP, it is a slippery slope... and you are s..."
In response to Reply # 348
Tue Jun-16-15 09:20 AM by legsdiamond

          

in our direction and you don't even see it.

you say we are made because we don't get to decide but then you turn right around and decide Rachel cant self identify because you "own" blackness.

like, how the fuck can you guys type this shit out and not see the hypocrisy?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Goldmind
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357. "I know, but Buddy misrepresented your position. Shame on him. "
In response to Reply # 349


          

>you say we are made because we don't get to decide but then
>you turn right around and decide Rachel cant self identify
>because you "own" blackness.

You're just making stuff up (which seems to be the modus operandi for you people), because I never said that. Lol @ me ever claiming to own blackness. Stop projecting. Do you think I would try to stop women from transitioning into women because I think I own maleness?

Anywho, Rachel can self-identify however the hell she wants. She can self-identify as black, as a man, or as a chicken bone with teeth marks in it. And I can decide whether I think she's doing it in good faith.

>like, how the fuck can you guys type this shit out and not see
>the hypocrisy?

Yeah, keep clutchin them pearls. lol

  

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legsdiamond
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445. "so you admit its up to us to decide if we accept self identity? cool"
In response to Reply # 357


          

thank you, thats all I wanted to know...

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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351. "Conversation is going 360 because that leads us back to why not let RQ"
In response to Reply # 348
Tue Jun-16-15 09:16 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

self-identify the same way CJ self-identifies?

His position is only an agenda if one believes one is legitimate and the other is not.

If you believe both are legitimate or both are not legitimate than there is no hidden agenda.


Folks are overly concerned about slippery slope arguments. There won't be a rush of people self-identifying as cows after this.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
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354. "true, i feel as tho if you ride for one why wouldnt you ride for the oth..."
In response to Reply # 351


          

but seems like people have limits on what is acceptable.

shit is odd

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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akon
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366. "you want us to ride for something that does not exist?"
In response to Reply # 354


  

          

>but seems like people have limits on what is acceptable.


except as a clear case of fraud?
that is what is odd

should we also ride for unicorns?
cause there's folk out there making extreme body modifications to look like..
whatever

anyway, its very clear now that for most people riding for this non-existent issue
its because they want to deprecate the transgender identity and experience
at least you've owned up to it
if that's your agenda
its dishonest
much as this transrace-ism issue is dishonest


this woman also sued howard because they discriminated against her whiteness?
lol
*this* is whom y'all ride for
and put up laverne cox as a comparison?
smh

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Goldmind
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:11 AM

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365. "I think that Rachel is a liar who knows she is white. "
In response to Reply # 351


          

>His position is only an agenda if one believes one is
>legitimate and the other is not.

Not only his agenda, but yours as well

>If you believe both are legitimate or both are not legitimate
>than there is no hidden agenda.

See above

>Folks are overly concerned about slippery slope arguments.
>There won't be a rush of people self-identifying as cows after
>this.

There also won't be a rush of people self-identifying as transracial, at least in the sense that you are defining it. So this is all really a waste of time.

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:35 AM

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374. "CJ hasn't engaged in fraud as RD has."
In response to Reply # 351
Tue Jun-16-15 10:37 AM by SoWhat

  

          

CJ hasn't told us she grew up as a cis girl and has always been a cis girl and was never a boy.

at some point RD claimed she has a Black father. thus, she denied her white ancestry and her white identity.

CJ hasn't presented herself as a cis woman - she identifies as a trans woman.

RD has claimed Black identity - and has yet to clarify whether she considers herself 'trans Black'.

RD could clear up much of the drama and pushback about her race identity if she would just admit that she was 'born white' and has identified as white in the past but has altered her appearance and now identifies as Black b/c *insert explanation here*. but she hasn't. she plays coy and claims the issue is complex but has yet to explain her actions.

CJ has given us her story. and she hasn't lied to us - she hasn't treated us like we're stupid. like we don't know she was born male and identified as a boy and later a man for several decades. plus she told us how and why it all went down.

fuck you.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Jun-16-15 01:51 PM

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443. "Yep yep"
In response to Reply # 374
Tue Jun-16-15 01:58 PM by denny

          

CJ is not trying to attach herself to experiences she isn't or wasn't privy too. Rachel is. That's all the distinguishing I need.

If Rachel went about self-identifying without laying claim to experiences she didn't have....I'd have no problem with it.

I have to admit....I was kinda confused where I stood on this before but I feel clear now. It's really not that complicated.

If CJ said 'I hated school because, like all young girls, they encouraged me to take home economics and discouraged me from the maths and sciences'....I'd call bullshit on her too. And by 'calling bullshit'...I mean to say that my perception of her experience will not match what she self-identifies as. Of course, CJ isn't doing that and I've never met or heard any other trans person attempting it either.

  

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SoWhat
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341. "'the progressive position' <-- *eyes roll*"
In response to Reply # 337
Tue Jun-16-15 08:18 AM by SoWhat

  

          

i dunno what the hell that's about. it sounds like Fox News language. it feels dishonest.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Jun-16-15 08:53 AM

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346. "there is a lot of Fox News language from BOTH sides on this issue"
In response to Reply # 341


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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369. "uh huh."
In response to Reply # 346


  

          

sure.

fuck you.

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
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Mon Jun-15-15 09:37 PM

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332. "the agenda of the op is bit more...personal methinks...but I'll leave it..."
In response to Reply # 313


  

          

That, this particular poster feels like I am constantly gunning for him and avoided this post for that reason

But yeah while others at large on the Internet may be trying to take shots at transgender people and tying this to Caitlyn Jenner, I think this was posted by this poster as a kind of expression/validation of his own views

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:12 AM

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350. "and Blacks arent making it personal in regards to Rachel? "
In response to Reply # 332


          

its all about protecting what we view as ours and it's no different than those who think sexual identity needs to be protected...


the problem on okp is people dig in, call posters bigots from past post and refuse to discuss because it opens a door progressive think should be locked.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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blkprinceMD05
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:34 AM

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356. "what are u even replying to? certainly not what i wrote because"
In response to Reply # 350


  

          

everything i wrote was pertaining to vex id and my thoughts on his motivations for posting this

please run along now and try to make sense of ur self

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:58 AM

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359. "lmao.. yall are hilarious in here"
In response to Reply # 356


          

so quick to avoid this discussion for obvious reasons

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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blkprinceMD05
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:10 AM

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364. "huh? Who is yall? I'm not transgender or 'transracial'? So again what "
In response to Reply # 359


  

          

Are u replying to? Are u replying in the wrong spot? Don't get it. U made a reply about how it is personal to Black folks and I never made a reply saying I disagreed with that or anything close to that notion. So what are u saying? And why? I kno u try to reply to everything I write but at least try to make sense

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:03 AM

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382. "theatre major? why so dramatic"
In response to Reply # 364


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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blkprinceMD05
Member since Nov 29th 2004
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:29 AM

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398. "yeah as I thought, just say u were wrong and pressed"
In response to Reply # 382


  

          

replying to something that wasnt even there, dumbass

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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444. "nah, just realized you got a whole lotta bitch in u bruh, 64 oz large gu..."
In response to Reply # 398


          

with free refills.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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blkprinceMD05
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Tue Jun-16-15 02:21 PM

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454. "stop tough typing on the internet and reply 398"
In response to Reply # 444


  

          

u were wrong and pressed and follow me around the boards, i ignore u for the most part but pointing out how dumb u r here was one i couldnt pass up

but call me a bitch to my face tho, see how that works out for u

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 02:53 PM

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464. "that isn't tough talk if it's the truth"
In response to Reply # 454
Tue Jun-16-15 02:57 PM by legsdiamond

          

and lol at challenging me to say it to your face.

nigga trying to holla on the low

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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akon
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:17 AM

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368. "seen and agree"
In response to Reply # 332


  

          


>But yeah while others at large on the Internet may be trying
>to take shots at transgender people and tying this to Caitlyn
>Jenner, I think this was posted by this poster as a kind of
>expression/validation of his own views

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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335. "why does everyone continue to mention white supremacy"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jun-16-15 07:18 AM by MiracleRic

  

          

when patriarchy and misogyny is alive, well, and eating good as fuck?

so much intellectual dishonesty

so much unchecked bias

so many broad brush strokes and labelling of those that disagree

am i transphobic...most likely...as are some/many advocates for trans folk...but i have zero issues with that movement other than "self-identity" and science being the determining factor of group membership...

i simply think that it's sloppy and problematic and thinks it's way less progressive than we are presenting it to be...i'd rather see gender roles be less oppressive than see them (roles and or mental state) force people into taking hormones and having surgeries...that's the opposite of progression...that's finding new and creative ways to reinforce flawed roles...

people will support trans people but then shit on the Kardashians for their obsession with cosmetic surgery...

in the end...i'm willing to roll with it as long as legislation keeps up but it presents some unique situations albeit small since the trans population is so small but interesting how we can rationalize benefit for the group over benefit over individuals when we want to

sports divisions should also be rearranged/renamed around biological sex even though that was the initial attempt with men/women's divisions

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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NikaMandela
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373. "this."
In response to Reply # 335
Tue Jun-16-15 10:38 AM by NikaMandela

          

>i simply think that it's sloppy and problematic and thinks
>it's way less progressive than we are presenting it to
>be...i'd rather see gender roles be less oppressive than see
>them (roles and or mental state) force people into taking
>hormones and having surgeries...that's the opposite of
>progression...that's finding new and creative ways to
>reinforce flawed roles...
>
>people will support trans people but then shit on the
>Kardashians for their obsession with cosmetic surgery...


i think its more progressive to embrace and accept men dressing and acting "like women" than it is to embrace and accept a transgendered woman dressing and acting "like a woman" because she now "looks" like one.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:43 AM

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400. "Because the conversation isn't just about being transsexual?"
In response to Reply # 335


          

It's about transracialism too, and I dunno how you expect to discuss that
(especially in the context of Dolezal) without discussing white supremacy.
Lol @ even asking that question.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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472. "Because its about a white woman that pretending to be black?"
In response to Reply # 335


          

Why wouldn't this manifest destiny ass topic NOT include white supremacy? Ric....what are you doing?

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Vex_id
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336. "Jelani Cobb went in re: "Rachel Dolezal and Our Lies About Race" "
In response to Reply # 0


          

excerpt from his New Yorker piece (which is an excellent read):

"Rachel Dolezal is not black—by lineage or lifelong experience—yet I find her deceptions less troubling than the vexed criteria being used to exclude her. If blackness is simply a matter of a preponderance of African ancestry, then we should set about the task of excising a great deal of the canon of black history, up to and including the current President. If it is simply a matter of shared experience, we might excommunicate people like Walter White, whose blue eyes were camouflage that could serve both to spare him the direct indignity of racism and enable him to personally investigate and expose lynchings. Dolezal was dishonest about an undertaking rooted in dishonesty, and no matter how absurd her fictional blackness may appear, it is worth recalling that the former lie is far more dangerous than the latter. Our means of defining ourselves are complex and contradictory—and could be nothing other than that."

To be clear on my position, I am *not* using the transrace discourse to try and "back transgender theory into a corner." While I definitely notice conservatives and others who find transgender to be illegitimate doing this, that's not what many others (Cobb, MHP, Chris Hayes etc..) are doing. There is a place in our discourse to discuss this without having to leverage the discussion to discredit other transient identity theories. The parallel to transgender (which many progressives have used to illustrate the social construction and malleable identity politics aspect of the discourse) is for the purpose of identifying the journey that it took before mainstream discourse even accepted "transgender" as a thing. We created "transgender" - just like we created race, and we should never approach these subjects as if they are fixed in concrete universalism.

Rachel Dolezal is actually a poor example of a theoretical discussion on 'transrace' - but her situation nonetheless brought entry into the discussion (that many oddly don't even want to have). But it's less about her than it is more about having a deeper, more critical conversation about race and how we've come to use race in the sphere of identity politics.


-->

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Tue Jun-16-15 08:19 AM

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342. "I'm actually glad we're having this kind of uncomfortable..."
In response to Reply # 336


  

          

...conversation. For the most part it's been really civil and engaging.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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343. "There's one huge caveat to that statement, we didn't "create" transgende..."
In response to Reply # 336


  

          

It already existed, as noted in one of the previous articles posted. We came up with the label, sure, but transgender people were already here. I haven't seen much precedence for people feeling as born the wrong race, non ironically at least. We also have to come back to the notion of whether or not race has an intrinsic "feeling" in the sense that sexual orientation or gender does. I don't think it does, because I've only felt my "blackness" in the context of white supremacy. I don't think there's anything intrinsic about it. Were it not for the fact that I've had to confront white supremacy at damn near every turn in my life, I'm not sure how cognizant I'd be of my race.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Jun-16-15 09:01 AM

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347. "I'm sure transgender had to face something every day before changing"
In response to Reply # 343


          

their identity

I grew up with a friend named Jimmy who we all suspected was different and he eventually made that change.

seems weird how Black people keep personalizing their Blackness but can't fathom how men and women personalize their sexuality and want it "protected" ... not sure if protected is the right word.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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362. "you're confusing sexuality and gender."
In response to Reply # 347


  

          

  

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Starbaby Jones
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376. "What you have to keep in mind is..."
In response to Reply # 347


  

          

There has been neuroscience and empirical data to back up the idea of gender being an intrinsic thing, not to mention loads of anecdotal information. I could be wrong, but, as far as I know, the same does not exist for race. Even anecdotally, I don't know any black people who describe their race in those terms.

For most of us, our ideas regarding our racial identity are shaped by the society we live, i.e. the context of white supremacy. When I've seen black people who weren't exposed to race in that context, when they do face it, it's shocking to say the least. That's why I don't think race moves in the same way gender or sexual orientation moves. I don't think it's just in a person. The conventional wisdom is that it's shaped by the world around you.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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legsdiamond
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384. "interesting break down"
In response to Reply # 376


          

this is what I have been trying to get people to speak on.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MiracleRic
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431. "so gender is more than a social construct?"
In response to Reply # 376


  

          

so it's intrinsically defined separately from sex?

let me do my googles

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Starbaby Jones
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439. "Research on the subject is relatively new, but yes. "
In response to Reply # 431


  

          

My understanding is that it is something that intrinsically felt. Now, how gender is performed is malleable based on the culture, but the feeling of being male or female is not a social construct.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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MiracleRic
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528. "this is why it's so problematic"
In response to Reply # 439


  

          

the research is largely inconclusive and challenged by peers regularly

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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353. "BTW, if RD does one of those ancestry.com DNA tests and turns out to be"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

%3 black (like sooo many white people are). Does that change anything for anybody. Can she slide in on the one drop rule at that point?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
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355. "nope"
In response to Reply # 353


          

cause she lied and had old photos as a white girl.


but I have no clue how that is any different than my friend Jimmy who is now living as a woman.

he was a boy until he was 19 or 20.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:17 AM

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367. "can I be white?"
In response to Reply # 355


  

          

.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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378. "Knock yourself out. Self-identify however you like. That doesn't mean"
In response to Reply # 367


  

          

people will accept your self-identification. That's true for trans-gender and trans-racial. Some will, some won't.

It's the fraud and deception language surrounding appearance that seems to not have a place in either discussion.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:18 AM

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393. "how do I go about "acting" white once I've transitioned?"
In response to Reply # 378


  

          

I really don't know much about living as a white person 24 hours a day. What should I do first, second, or third?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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413. "IDK. you decided you wanted to self-identify so present it how you see"
In response to Reply # 393


  

          

fit.

here is the thing. I am not trying to establish the rules of how this works. I am not trying to look into people's hearts and determine who is authentic and who is not.

I am saying, live and let live...just don't mess with minority set asides that were not intended for you.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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459. "I don't wanna "self-identify". I wanna be white!"
In response to Reply # 413


  

          

I want a chance in life! I don't wanna have to feel less than, feel lower than other people, or apologize for my mother's color!

What do I do about my parents? I can't be white without white parents; should I force my parents to transition too? What about my uncles, aunts, and cousins (gosh, this is gonna be expensive)?

But still, I need to learn to act white, talk white, think white...but I really don't know what any of that means. I just know I want it because white people get to carry guns in public, get credit, and stuff like that there.

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:08 AM

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388. "i dont know... i guess, it would probably be an uphill battle tho"
In response to Reply # 367


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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NikaMandela
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358. "*keeps unpopular opinion to self*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

lol

  

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legsdiamond
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360. "LOL, dont be scurred, its been civil"
In response to Reply # 358


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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NikaMandela
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363. "the world is a shit show"
In response to Reply # 360
Tue Jun-16-15 10:12 AM by NikaMandela

          

this convo is just very uncomfortable. and the issue is so complex that its hard to articulate my opinion properly. makes my head want to explode.

essentially i just dont believe in self-identification period. *shrugs*

  

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Teknontheou
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372. "That's an interesting angle I haven't heard yet."
In response to Reply # 363


  

          

Why do you feel that way?

  

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NikaMandela
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377. "i just feel like people are who and what they are."
In response to Reply # 372


          

to me it just seems silly to intellectualize very basic and inarguable facts about oneself, like race and sex.



  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:03 AM

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383. "i agree"
In response to Reply # 377


  

          

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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legsdiamond
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"me too, you summed up stance in one sentence"


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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386. "me too, you summed up stance in one sentence"
In response to Reply # 377


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Starbaby Jones
Member since Mar 08th 2003
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379. "I can't speak for Nika, but I view it like this..."
In response to Reply # 372
Tue Jun-16-15 10:48 AM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

I never chose my identity as black. Despite being racially mixed, my genetic traits present as black. So, I can want to call myself all sorts of things all day, but when a person sees me, they're going to see black and treat in accordance with their experience. I could go out of my way to point out my racial variances, but I don't see anything wrong with being perceived as black. So, I don't fight it.

Ultimately, I've embraced my blackness and I'm proud of it, but I didn't exactly have a choice in the matter. The whole notion of a choosing your racial identity reeks of white privilege. If you have characteristics that present as one race or another, society tells you what race you are and how you will be treated. Personal choice rarely comes into play when it comes to racial identity.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:11 AM

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390. "I know some lite skint Black people in Charlotte who dont identify as Bl..."
In response to Reply # 379


          

now, personally she is Black imo but she goes out of her way to point out her Native American and German bloodlines when race comes up.

she also has body issues as well so ionno.

but she will not identify as Black.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Starbaby Jones
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402. "Here's the thing, though..."
In response to Reply # 390


  

          

She can emphasize her racial variances all day, but society gives fuck all about how she views herself. If a racist white person identifies her blackness and decides not to hire her or give her a loan, or arrest her or whatever, they don't care about that. It's not self-chosen. You are treated how you are perceived. If she lives in a micro-society where fairness gives her more agency, then she may find some agency, but remove her from that situation and the choice won't be hers.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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legsdiamond
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453. "but... what about when society sees a women who is clearly a man? "
In response to Reply # 402


          

is it wrong to acknowledge or label them as so?

is it wrong to see my friend Jimmy who transitioned and not call him by his female name?

I'm not trying to be funny, you seem to be the only one willing to have this discussion without being rude

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Starbaby Jones
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457. "I get how that can be rough..."
In response to Reply # 453


  

          

but I go back to compassion. Having interacted with people who are easily clocked. They are well aware of this. Most of them still look that way, because they don't have the resources to have the reconstruction surgeries to make their physicality match their gender expression. Keep in mind these surgeries are expensive and no insurance in America, that I know of, covers them. So, it's all out of pocket.

They desperately want to get themselves to a more refined look. So, it boils down to compassion for me. I can't imagine wanting something so desperately and not having the resources, or even hope of gaining the resources, to make it happen. Calling that person by their chosen name and using the pronouns that match their gender expression seems like a really small courtesy. So, that's how I treat them.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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403. "What about the M2F who clearly presents as a Male though?"
In response to Reply # 379


  

          

The argument has been if a person born male chooses to persent as female we should respect that choice and refer to them as a female. Use feminine pro-nouns and such.

There is no distinction made between whether someone presents convincingly or not. I am suppose to respect the wishes of the Janet Mocks and Caitlyn Jenners as well as the 6'4" person with the adams apple, goatee and Charles Barkey hands wearing a dress, and treat them how they want to be treated.

So whether you present convincingly as a transracial shouldn't really be part of the discussion. The only question I thought is how you self-identify.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:57 AM

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409. "I can understand how it may be jarring..."
In response to Reply # 403


  

          

to call someone by the pronoun that matches their gender expression, when their looks don't match it. There is, however, an economic component to that. These people are often doing the best they can with their resources. If they had the money, they'd probably take greater steps to make their physical attributes match their gender expression. So, to me, it comes to a point of compassion. They want to make their physicality match how they feel, but they most likely don't have the resources to do so.

Presenting is a part of the transracial discussion, because that's how race is is constructed, period. As I stated before, I don't know of any evidence of race being intrinsic. There have, however, been studies about gender being intrinsic. So, it's different in that it's not purely motivated by societal context.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:25 AM

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371. "No difference except one is the agenda of popular culture"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the other is the underbelly and Prime example of the root of racial issues on the planet.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 10:37 AM

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375. "cards on the table: who here actually identifies or wants to identify as"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"transracial".

No jokes, serious replies. And explain you answer, like it's 10th grade.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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380. "I considered my friend Black. She considered herself "bi-racial""
In response to Reply # 375


  

          

She is from Kenya and the fact that she had a white momma meant that she was regarded as White in Kenya.

I told her that was all bullshit now that she was in the states. I told her that she was black now and had to get use to it. She threw her drink in my face. Told me I was trying to get her to not acknowledge her white mother.

In retrospect that was a transracial discussion. American Society would identify her as black. She self-identified as "bi-racial". I spent a great deal of time trying to force her to accept the label that america would force on her.

In retrospect I think I was wrong for that.

In the end she married a bi-racial dude which made so much sense because they understood each other.

I am sure she probably identifies as black and bi-racial. Probably more likely to check the black box if it might help with a minority set aside. I ain't mad at her.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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SoWhat
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381. "that's not 'transrace'."
In response to Reply # 380


  

          

transrace, as you ppl want to use it, would apply if for example your friend wanted to claim she's Asian though she was not born to Asian parents and had not lived as an Asian previously.

your friend is a garden-variety bi-racial person who identifies as such. yes, depending on how she looks most ppl may identify her as a certain race while she identifies w/more than one race. that's not 'transrace'.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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391. "How are you distinguishing trans-racial and bi-racial issues. "
In response to Reply # 381


  

          

What's the difference between someone saying "I am not black, I am bi-racial" versus someone saying "I am not white, I am black" or whatever the example you can think of in which someone self-identifies with a race that the majority culture wouldn't recognize?

Let's remember, the notion of being bi-racial is a relatively new universally accepted concept. Wasn't really universally accepted when I was younger. One Drop Rule. Tiger getting clowned for describing himself as such. I think the census just added it to the census in like 2000. Hence my argument with the girl.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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SoWhat
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408. "easily."
In response to Reply # 391


  

          

>What's the difference between someone saying "I am not black,
>I am bi-racial" versus someone saying "I am not white, I am
>black" or whatever the example you can think of in which
>someone self-identifies with a race that the majority culture
>wouldn't recognize?

"I grew up as a white girl, but I now identify as an Asian woman even though neither of my parents is Asian and I have no other Asian ancestry."

vs.

"I grew up as a white girl, but I now identify as a bi-racial woman b/c one of my parents is white and the other is Asian. I have both white and Asian ancestry and I am not comfortable identifying with one and ignoring the other."

^ not the same thing.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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394. "my wife has a friend who is white, she was born and raised in japan "
In response to Reply # 381


          

until the age of 18. She still speaks broken English and it's obvious she isn't a white American once she opens her mouth.

what is she?

I never asked her what she identified as because it wasn't important.

where does she fit in this discussion?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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411. "based on that she's not part of this discussion."
In response to Reply # 394


  

          

fuck you.

  

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PoppaGeorge
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441. "why not?"
In response to Reply # 411


  

          

she's clearly white, yet her life experiences say she's Japanese. Should she say "I'm Japanese" why wouldn't that fit the transracial construct?

I have the answer, but I wanna see what you have to say.
---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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SoWhat
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442. "b/c nothing in that told me how SHE identifies."
In response to Reply # 441
Tue Jun-16-15 01:46 PM by SoWhat

  

          

nothing in that said she used to identify as ___ but has decided to transition into a new racial identity b/c ___.

she white and grew up in Japan and speaks Japanese. that doesn't make her transracial. she could very well be a white woman who speaks Japanese. she'd be transracial (per the definition proposed dishonestly via this Rachel D discussion) if she wanted to identify racially as Asian though she has European ancestry.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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447. "my wife says she is japanese... we debated for a while about it"
In response to Reply # 442


          

I never asked her because I didn't think it was my place to ask her.

however, seeing how she operates and how she speaks, I would say she is japanese. she is far more comfortable in japan than she is in America.

but I doubt japan sees her as japanese.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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448. "*shrugs*"
In response to Reply # 447


  

          

okay.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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451. "sure"
In response to Reply # 448


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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452. "'Japanese' is not a racial identity."
In response to Reply # 451
Tue Jun-16-15 02:17 PM by SoWhat

  

          

it's a cultural, national and ethnic identity.

she can be culturally and ethnically Japanese but racially white. i dunno.

she'd have a place in this discussion if she wanted to identify racially as Asian though she has European/white racial ancestry. but her Japanese ethnicity doesn't necessarily mean she would say her race is Asian.

fuck you.

  

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blkprinceMD05
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455. "he's extremely dumb...like seriously"
In response to Reply # 452
Tue Jun-16-15 02:22 PM by blkprinceMD05

  

          

.

prototype

stand ur ground, believe in urself,
believe in love, prepare urself for love, remove the negativity from ur life, and accept the love u kno u deserve

  

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legsdiamond
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463. "Until you let that bitch in you, walk up out you.. don't speak to me"
In response to Reply # 455


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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465. "...that reply wasn't to you."
In response to Reply # 463


  

          

which kinda proves his point.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
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467. "sure it wasn't"
In response to Reply # 465


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
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461. "lol, true.. but you knew what I meant. "
In response to Reply # 452


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SoWhat
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462. "i did and that's why i said from the top she has no place"
In response to Reply # 461


  

          

in this discussion. nothing you've said in response has changed my mind.

fuck you.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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387. "This supports the idea that race isn't intrinsic"
In response to Reply # 380


  

          

Your views on racial identity are so starkly different, because they were shaped by different societies. Black is not something you feel without societal context.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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397. "Exactly, I was wrong to try to insist on some biological basis. Clearly "
In response to Reply # 387


  

          

It's Malleable and a social construct.

So folks should lose the "there is a biological basis for transgender, but not for transracial" argument.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
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405. "But there's a biological basis for gender and orientation..."
In response to Reply # 397


  

          

being intrinsic and not just a social construct. Homosexual as a label and in its current societal construct is relatively new as a label, but homosexuality existed well before we had a name for it. The same can be said with transgenderism. Acceptance and labeling is the part of the equation that's a societal construct.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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412. "Sure there is a biological basis for orientation, but what about gender?"
In response to Reply # 405


  

          

>being intrinsic and not just a social construct. Homosexual
>as a label and in its current societal construct is relatively
>new as a label, but homosexuality existed well before we had a
>name for it.

Agreed.

The same can be said with transgenderism.

How? Seems like you just slide gender through the gate that held open for sexuality.

A male born person who presents as a woman gets all his cues for how to present as a woman from society. That person would present totally different in Brazil, versus Malaysia, versus LA.


>Acceptance and labeling is the part of the equation that's a
>societal construct.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
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417. "The same..."
In response to Reply # 412


  

          

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm

Research is newer, because transgenderism is newly accepted. As I stated previously, the trans part of the LGBT is decades behind the LG part. So, there isn't the same breadth of information, but given the fact that we've seen transgenderism pop up throughout history, I'm confident isn't inferring that we'll see a similar sort of biological basis for transgenderism that we see for sexual orientation.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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426. "Come one yo, your source talks about Disorders of gender identity."
In response to Reply # 417


  

          

You really want to use that as a source to make your point?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Starbaby Jones
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432. "So, you're ignoring the part where I said research is new?"
In response to Reply # 426
Tue Jun-16-15 01:25 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

There isn't much research on the subject of transgendered people, because society's acceptance of trans people is relatively new. Just like decades ago, there wasn't much research on homosexuality. As acceptance grows, you'll see more research. You can, however, reasonably infer the biological basis of transgenderism, because of its existence throughout history.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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kfine
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416. "Race is based on biological features as well. It's just that"
In response to Reply # 405


          


people conflate race, ethnicity and at times even nationality.

I mean, yes race is an social construct but it is actually composed of a basket of biological identifiers (skin colour, hair texture, eye colour/shape, nose shape/size, etc.) historically used to indicate a certain race/ancestry (Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid, etc.) The REASON race is considered a social construct is that the attributes chosen to categorize humans from one another were limited to visible characteristics and grouped together somewhat arbitrarily. The only clear utility for the current race classification is forensic science and measuring discrimination/inequities. Without those uses, one could construct similar divisions according to some other arbitrary biological feature like blood type.

ETHNICITY on the other hand is shaped by shared cultural behaviors, language, shared history, nationality, heritage, etc. The only ethnicity denominated by the US Census is Hispanic. This does not mean that other ethnicities do not exist in the United States. This also does not mean that an individual can not straddle more than one ethnicity at one time, as is commonly seen in naturalized immigrants since they can claim multiple nationalities, shared histories, languages and cultures. If the US government REALLY wanted to characterize its population, race and ethnicity would be measured separately, and the ethnicity section could be several pages long.

But honestly, I am surprised so many people just passively adopt government misclassifications as their framework for describing race and ethnicity. This post and thisatruththangs dating post have kinda left me a bit mindblown this week

  

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Starbaby Jones
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419. "The interpretation of those biological features..."
In response to Reply # 416
Tue Jun-16-15 12:40 PM by Starbaby Jones

  

          

is socially constructed. Yes, ancestry and the way one's genetic traits present to the world are absolutely biological. However, the way society interprets those items and treats people is constructed by the society itself. Also, one's ancestry and physical attributes are not something that you feel emotionally without the context of how you're treated in society as a result of those traits. So, "feeling" black, or any race really, does not exist without social context. I get the difference between race and ethnicity, but race as a feeling exists purely as a social construct.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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kfine
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422. "Would you disagree that 'feeling black' is part of a shared"
In response to Reply # 419


          


black experience and would thus be an element of black ethnicity? Limiting your analysis to multiracial societies, of course.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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425. "Absolutely"
In response to Reply # 422


  

          

Mainly, because when you move to a racially homogenous society, the feeling of blackness or whiteness erodes. In my travels throughout Europe, I rarely ran into a white person who identified themselves by race. Racial identity loses its steam, when there isn't racial variance. That's why I reject the notion of "feeling" like one race or another as being something intrinsic. So, race, in the context of this conversation, definitely functions like ethnicity.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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kfine
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430. "Hm, interesting. I think this is where we disagree then."
In response to Reply # 425


          

>Mainly, because when you move to a racially homogenous
>society, the feeling of blackness or whiteness erodes. In my
>travels throughout Europe, I rarely ran into a white person
>who identified themselves by race. Racial identity loses its
>steam, when there isn't racial variance. That's why I reject
>the notion of "feeling" like one race or another as being
>something intrinsic. So, race, in the context of this
>conversation, definitely functions like ethnicity.
>


During your travels in Europe, the white Europeans you encountered may have identified themselves by their ethnicity or nationality. But if they were asked to identify your race by your physical features, they would have identified you as an individual of black race. Just the way you identified them as white in your description.

And let's say, hypothetically, you met up with another traveler, a black male from Tanzania. The white Europeans you encountered would have identified you both as black males. However the differences between you and your travel friend in culture, nationality, language, and shared history would be ethnic differences. Despite both being perceived as black males. According to my perspective, anyway.

  

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Starbaby Jones
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436. "I'm not sure where we differ based on your statement. "
In response to Reply # 430


  

          

I'm saying that race doesn't provide an intrinsic feeling. So, in the context of a racially homogenous society, those white people wouldn't feel "white", because ethnicity provides the separation. To introduce myself and black friend into the scenario is to introduce a different race into the equation. So, that's what would make them aware of their whiteness and my blackness. They would construct their racial identities from there, because it would be a factor that hadn't existed before.

Hopefully, they would be open enough to observe the ethnic differences between us (myself and Tanzanian) and see that blackness isn't a homogenous identity. We would, however, have little say in constructing what it means to be black in that instance. The society of that country would construct our experiences.

Further, our interpretations of those experiences would be shaped by our ethnic differences, b/c being black in Tanzania is different from being black in the US. So, I still think our racial identities are not intrinsically felt, they're shaped by our respective societies.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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kfine
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575. "Sorry about that, you're right. I definitely stopped short."
In response to Reply # 436
Sun Jun-21-15 08:33 AM by kfine

          

I don't believe that one's racial identity would dissolve in a racially homogenous society. I place substantial weight on how a person identifies out of respect, but not to the point of rendering biological indicators of race and imposed classifications negligible. I think waking up everyday and looking down at one's body reaffirms ones racial identity, looking in the mirror at one's skin tone, hair texture, nose, eyes, performing certain grooming practices, etc.

I also think that, in many cases, racially homogenous societies can place even greater weight on physical features than would typically be observed in multiracial ones. Divisions are not restricted to ethnicity. For example in many African, Asian and Latin-American societies colorism is alive and well even intra-ethnically, influencing things like marriage, social mobility, and discrimination.

I asked the 'feeling black' question because as I worked my way through your perspective, I realized that I don't think I would place 'feeling black' as an entirely individual experience. I do agree with you that it is context-dependent, but to me this means that the individual would not be alone in experiencing the effects since context is shaped by current and historical political, cultural and socio-economic factors. That 'feeling black' could change depending on what environment the person of black race is in indicates, to me at least, that it is a feeling that could be shared with other blacks that fit the same 'profile' (so to speak), not that it would erode. Similarly, I think 'feeling black' may change if the person's 'profile' changed (eg. a traveling student vs. a wealthy Head of State). I would consider this to be true whether the environment is racially homogenous or multiracial.

We seem to have concordant views on ethnicity though.

  

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akon
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389. "no, she was regarded as 0.5, or pointy as we call it"
In response to Reply # 380


  

          

>She is from Kenya and the fact that she had a white momma
>meant that she was regarded as White in Kenya.

we are at least better at acknowledging both races

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Goldmind
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:14 AM

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392. "He thought he was going to pull a fast one on us. "
In response to Reply # 389


          

Not in this house! lol



  

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akon
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541. "lol! how did i miss this"
In response to Reply # 392
Sat Jun-20-15 08:22 AM by akon

  

          

>Not in this house! lol


dude in one sentence says, she considers herself biracial
(and im like, sounds about right. we'd consider her biracial, point 5)
then he wants to say that she's transracial
wtf?

grasping at inexistent straws for real

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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396. "She told me she was regarded as white. You saying she lying?"
In response to Reply # 389


  

          

Well do you think she was right (or lying) to say that she was not considered black?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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akon
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399. "yes, "
In response to Reply # 396


  

          

>Well do you think she was right (or lying) to say that she
>was not considered black?

she was considered a 0.5. or pointy as i said
which is how we describe someone who has a white and a black parent
we happen to be very clear about this shit
so no, she wasnt considered black neither was she considered white
she was considered biracial, which is what the 0.5 moniker stands for
she can pick and choose what side she wants to fall on
but us kenyans are not just going to throw her on one side
as it happens here
which is probably what she resented
when she said you are not acknowledging her white side

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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404. "maybe I mis-remember, maybe she lied (I doubt it), maybe she encountered"
In response to Reply # 399


  

          

something you didn't, maybe you are lying, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't change my point that I thought she was just black and she didn't agree with that and I was probably wrong trying to impose my american POV on her.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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akon
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429. "categorically no"
In response to Reply # 404


  

          

you said in kenya she was considered white and im saying no
if she was walking down the streets of nairobi, if she was in school
or whatever social context
we as kenyans would be very clear that she's pointy
this is not about her personal feeling
this is about how the kenyan society would perceive her
now why would i lie about shit like this?
and yes we also use half-cast but the avg dude on the streets of nairobi would use pointy.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=point+5
point 5
a mixed race person
name comes from the fact they are 0.5 one race and 0.5 another

term usually used in east african countries such as kenya

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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480. "Ohh I am suppose to categorically believe you now based on your last pos..."
In response to Reply # 429


  

          

I don't know you. I know her well. Like I said without any more information any of the 5 things could be true.

Urban dictionary is not more information. Also even if that is true it doesn't exclude the other being true.

you won't convince me just by saying it more adamantly.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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akon
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482. "believe whatever you want to believe"
In response to Reply # 480
Tue Jun-16-15 04:40 PM by akon

  

          

>Urban dictionary is not more information. Also even if that
>is true it doesn't exclude the other being true.

especially since i dont know wtf this different truths ish means

but in the same way you can sit here and tell us what she is considered
in *this* society
i can sit here and tell you what she is considered in Kenyan society
if you want to look at that as a relative then it also undermines your
telling her what this society perceives her to be

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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385. "lol, no."
In response to Reply # 375


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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420. "If we were to characterize "transrace" as"
In response to Reply # 375


          


intentional and permanent reconstruction of biological features (eg. Negroid, Caucasoid, etc.) to mimic those historically recognized as indicating a different race, then I think the following examples would qualify:


http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Sammy-Sosa-Admits-to-Bleaching-His-Skin-2.jpg

^^ Maintains Dominican-American ethnicity; permanently reconstructed skin color, hair texture, and eye color from those indicative of black race to those indicative of another race


http://plasticsurgeryfact.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Michael-Jackson-Nose-Job-Before-and-After.jpg

^^ Maintained Black American ethnicity; permanently reconstructed skin color, hair texture and nose shape/size from those indicative of black race to those indicative of another race


http://honeygerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tiny_Eye_Color_Surgery_Honey_German.jpg

^^Maintains Black American ethnicity; permanently reconstructed hair texture and eye color from those indicative of black/mixed race to those indicative of another race


http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Rachel-Dolezal-Before-and-After-665x385.jpg

^^Rachel Dolezal is a poor example because of her fraudulence. However she still seems to display some degree of race dysmorphia, regardless of her deceptions.


Now, is there a plausible mechanism to try and understand what would motivate some people to permanently alter their biological features to those of a different race?? Probably. It doesn't seem to be well-characterized, but it likely involves some combination of personal insecurities/self-hate, a lingering global standard of Caucasian features as 'beautiful', or strong feelings of dissonance between their former race and their ethnicity/cultural leanings, etc.

  

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SoWhat
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428. "no."
In response to Reply # 420


  

          

fuck you.

  

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kfine
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433. "Lol! Well thanks for setting me on the straight and narrow :)"
In response to Reply # 428


          


I feel so enlightened now

  

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SoWhat
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438. "'maintains ___ ethnicity'"
In response to Reply # 433
Tue Jun-16-15 01:40 PM by SoWhat

  

          

1. 'transrace' doesn't actually exist. at least not yet.

2. except for Rachel D, none of the ppl in your example actually changed their race identity. while they may have made body modifications none of them made a racial transition.

fuck you.

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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449. "In particular not Michael fucking Jackson."
In response to Reply # 438


  

          

As much as people talk shit, he still referred to himself as Black until the day he died.

  

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SoWhat
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450. "yup. very much so."
In response to Reply # 449


  

          

fuck you.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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473. "Lol! Yall are so dramatic in here. Look,"
In response to Reply # 449


          



I get what you're saying. But, especially in the case of Michael Jackson, I still think his dysmorphia is particularly noteworthy. I think there would have been some benefit to understanding what were the true motivations behind it. If not at the very least to shed light on why others may also feel the need to pursue similar modification.

  

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kfine
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471. "Alright, I see you. "
In response to Reply # 438
Tue Jun-16-15 03:17 PM by kfine

          

>1. 'transrace' doesn't actually exist. at least not yet.
>

A big issue may actually be with the term transrace/transracial then. For starters, many of us learned in this post that in some circles 'transracial' is already used to describe individuals of one race that are raised in a family/home environment of a different race. So perhaps a better term, at least for now, is race dysmorphia.

But then, discussing race dysmorhpia and characterizing it is what would bring its existence to light. I don't think this phenomenon is as non-existent as people think. For example, skin lightening is a multi-billion dollar industry supported by Asia, Africa and the Middle East alone:

http://www.latinpost.com/articles/8096/20140304/skin-color-politics-african-diaspora-latinos-america-latin-america-skin-lightening-creams-series.htm

The fact that there is not an organized community raising awareness or providing education on the motivations for race dysmorphia doesn't mean it is not worthy of discussion.


>2. except for Rachel D, none of the ppl in your example
>actually changed their race identity.

This is a good point, but I'm not sure if you are correct. I'll give you that for Tiny and MJ. But understanding the well-documented denouncement of black race in the Dominican Republic and by many Dominican immigrants to the United States, I think it is highly plausible that Sammy Sosa's modifications were influenced by a desire to shed indicators of black race.

while they may have
>made body modifications none of them made a racial
>transition.

At some point, making extreme changes to a conspicuous combination of biological features is more than simple body modification. These features are not randomly related, they are biological indicators of ones ancestry. Is changing one's genitalia, internal organs, endocrine profile, equivalent to piercing one's ears, tattooing one's skin, and dying one's hair? I think resting on the term body modification, at least in these cases, is a bit of an over-simplification.

  

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SoWhat
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474. "great."
In response to Reply # 471


  

          

i don't care, holmes.

fuck you.

  

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MiracleRic
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435. "show your work"
In response to Reply # 428


  

          

is it bc they haven't explicitly said so or will a "k" suffice?

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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SoWhat
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440. "*pats head*"
In response to Reply # 435


  

          

grown folks are talking, love.

go away.

fuck you.

  

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Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
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484. "ric, don't accept this shit."
In response to Reply # 440


          

get in there!

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:43 AM

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401. "I've seen so many jokes this week about "trans""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

People talkin about "I'm transpecies, I'm really a shark." Or "I'm transvertical, I'm really 6'6 even though the measurement says I'm 5'2."

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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507. "LMFAO. Truth be told, there's really no end to this "self-identify"
In response to Reply # 401


          

however you want" bullshit.



>People talkin about "I'm transpecies, I'm really a shark." Or
>"I'm transvertical, I'm really 6'6 even though the measurement
>says I'm 5'2."
>
>

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Tue Jun-16-15 11:49 AM

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406. "Crissle from The Read has a special message for this post:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://soundcloud.com/theread/imitation-of-life

  

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Starbaby Jones
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410. "I'm listening to it now. She's on point, as usual."
In response to Reply # 406


  

          

I'm excited about seeing them live Friday.

http://soundcloud.com/forestbrooks

  

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Utamaroho
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483. "DAMN! "
In response to Reply # 406


  

          

.

Red, Black, Green

  

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SoWhat
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485. "HUNDALASILIAH!!"
In response to Reply # 406


  

          

>https://soundcloud.com/theread/imitation-of-life

fuck you.

  

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b.Touch
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407. "Elon James White & team have a special message for this post:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://thisweekinblackness.com/shane-paul-neil/105916/

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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415. "If I was trying to prove this was an agenda, I'd ask who first described..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

as trans-racial?

This just as easily could have been described as "reverse passing" ugh or just passing for black.

It's completely Caitlyn Jenner related that this is being described in trans terms and is not at all inevitable or the only way to describe it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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418. "Why must there even be an agenda?"
In response to Reply # 415


          

If other trans- phenomena exist, let them at least be characterized, defined and understood. Simply doing so does not counteract transgender/LGBTQ advocacy in any way.

I mean, does the LGBTQ movement subjugate the Black Civil Rights movement? Did the Black Civil Rights movement subjugate the Women's suffrage movement?? Lol, like where does it end.

The meta-narrative here is really supposed to boil down to human rights. Alleviation of barriers to improved quality of life. Gender expression is but one arena where humans encounter such barriers. Why would barriers with respect to poverty/class, race, ethnicity, sex, etc. not also be a "thing"?

The "non-thing"/"LGBTQ was here first" theme is really one of the most disappointing products of this discourse. It's like "Identity Olympics"

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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421. "I hear you. And I agree. I am just thinking out loud cause I can't deny ..."
In response to Reply # 418


  

          

some folks are jumping on this issue as a chance to get at Caitlyn Jenner (and those folks are being vindicated by what you describe as disappointing you).

I just have no doubt that if it weren't for Caitlyn Jenner, the issue wouldn't be so big or discussed the way it is being discussed in the media regardless of the legitimacy of the issue.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Tue Jun-16-15 12:48 PM

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423. "Lol, of course. I wasn't coming at you (or anyone) specifically"
In response to Reply # 421


          



I too was thinking out loud

  

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Goldmind
Member since Oct 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-16-15 12:52 PM

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424. "There doesn't have to be, but there is"
In response to Reply # 418


          

Not everyone is pushing it, but most of the loudest ones in here are.

>If other trans- phenomena exist, let them at least be
>characterized, defined and understood. Simply doing so does
>not counteract transgender/LGBTQ advocacy in any way.

I don't know of anybody who is opposed to a discussion of other trans-phenomena, only to discussions that are used to counteract transgender advocacy, which is what we're seeing in this post.

>I mean, does the LGBTQ movement subjugate the Black Civil
>Rights movement? Did the Black Civil Rights movement subjugate
>the Women's suffrage movement?? Lol, like where does it end.

...Is there a transracial movement that I somehow missed?

>The meta-narrative here is really supposed to boil down to
>human rights. Alleviation of barriers to improved quality of
>life. Gender expression is but one arena where humans
>encounter such barriers. Why would barriers with respect to
>poverty/class, race, ethnicity, sex, etc. not also be a
>"thing"?

Cool. I'm all about discussing concrete examples of real-life plights, not insincere hypotheticals.

>The "non-thing"/"LGBTQ was here first" theme is really one of
>the most disappointing products of this discourse. It's like
>"Identity Olympics"

I've never heard or ready anyone say "LGBTQ was here first" and I'm not convinced that you have either.

  

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kfine
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437. "Seen. "
In response to Reply # 424
Tue Jun-16-15 01:49 PM by kfine

          

I do acknowledge there's been a slew of conflicting opinions, some of which appear to trivialize transgender experiences and associated protections/rights.

But if done respectfully, I really don't see how examining one phenomenon should affect the other.

  

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dafriquan
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488. "You are wise and intelligent"
In response to Reply # 418


  

          


I wish I wrote all this.
I was sold on open-mindedness by the same people that now want me ti become less accepting. It is disappointing and telling. Everybody just bangs for their own agendas.

>If other trans- phenomena exist, let them at least be
>characterized, defined and understood. Simply doing so does
>not counteract transgender/LGBTQ advocacy in any way.
>
>I mean, does the LGBTQ movement subjugate the Black Civil
>Rights movement? Did the Black Civil Rights movement subjugate
>the Women's suffrage movement?? Lol, like where does it end.
>
>The meta-narrative here is really supposed to boil down to
>human rights. Alleviation of barriers to improved quality of
>life. Gender expression is but one arena where humans
>encounter such barriers. Why would barriers with respect to
>poverty/class, race, ethnicity, sex, etc. not also be a
>"thing"?
>
>The "non-thing"/"LGBTQ was here first" theme is really one of
>the most disappointing products of this discourse. It's like
>"Identity Olympics"

  

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Vex_id
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490. "beautifully articulated. thanks for that."
In response to Reply # 418


          


-->

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Tue Jun-16-15 02:05 PM

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446. "Kareem talkin' bout it (TIME mag swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

She's given me the courage to reveal my true identity.

I sympathize with the dilemma of Rachel Dolezal, the head of the Spokane chapter of the NAACP whose parents maintain that she is not any part black, as she has claimed (#whiteisthenewblack). See, I too have been living a lie. For the past 50 years I’ve been keeping up this public charade, pretending to be something I’m not. Finally, in the wake of so many recent personal revelations by prominent people, I’ve decided to come out with the truth.

I am not tall (#shortstuff).

Although I’ve been claiming to be 7’2” for many decades, the truth is that I’m 5’8”. And that’s when I first get out of bed in the morning. Just goes to show, you tell a lie often enough and people believe you. I expect there will be some who will demand I give back the championship rings and titles that I accumulated during my college and professional basketball career because I was only able to win them by convincing other players that they had no chance against my superior height. How could these achievements have any lasting meaning if I’m not really as tall as Wikipedia says I am?

The evidence against Dolezal does seem pretty damning. Her birth parents have decided to express their parental love by outing her in response to a legal dispute they have with her (#returnworld’sbestparentstrophy). They offered photos of a farm-fresh Rachel looking like she just stepped out of the General Store in Mayberry and a white-on-white birth certificate. Some siblings have also attested that she’s not black, though she was raised alongside four adopted black children. Dolezal herself has just stepped aside from her position at the NAACP.

Despite all this, you can’t deny that Dolezal has proven herself a fierce and unrelenting champion for African-Americans politically and culturally. Perhaps some of this sensitivity comes from her adoptive black siblings. Whatever the reason, she has been fighting the fight for several years and seemingly doing a first-rate job. Not only has she led her local chapter of the NAACP, she teaches classes related to African-American culture at Eastern Washington University and is chairwoman of a police oversight committee monitoring fairness in police activities. Bottom line: The black community is better off because of her efforts.


At no time in history has the challenge of personal identity seemed more relevant. Olympic champion Bruce Jenner struggled for years with her gender identity and only at the age of 65, as Caitlyn Jenner, seems to have come to some peace with it. The same with many in the gay community who have battled internal and external demons before embracing their true selves. The difference is that these people faced a biological imperative rather than a free will choice of orientation (#readthesciencebeforepostingoutrage). Dolezal chose to identify with a racial group she was not born into, like Sean Connery as the Japanese expert in Rising Sun.





The thing about race is that, scientifically, there is no such thing. As far back as 1950, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) released the conclusions of an international group of anthropologists, geneticists, sociologists, and psychologists that stated that the concept of race was not a scientific entity but a myth. Since then, one scientific group after another has issued similar conclusions. What we use to determine race is really nothing more than some haphazard physical characteristics, cultural histories, and social conventions that distinguish one group from another. But, for the sake of communication, we will continue to misuse the word, myself included, in order to discuss our social issues so everyone understands them. As far as Dolezal is concerned, technically, since there is no such thing as race, she’s merely selected a cultural preference of which cultural group she most identifies with. Who can blame her? Anyone who listens to the Isaac Hayes song, “Shaft,” wants to be black—for a little while anyway (#who’sthecatwhowon’tcopout).

Al Jolson, once considered the most popular entertainer in the world, rose to fame wearing blackface. He also used his considerable influence to help blacks. At one time, he was the only white man allowed into some of the nightclubs in Harlem. Ironically, Jolson admitted that when he performed the same songs without blackface he never felt he did as good a job. Some critics say it’s because while singing in blackface, he was singing for all downtrodden people, including his own Jewish people. And he found his strength and passion and power while identifying with another culture. Maybe like Quentin Tarantino in Jackie Brown and Django Unchained.

So, does it really matter whether Rachel Dolezal is black or white?

Dr. King said we should be judged by the content of character rather than color of skin, which is what makes this case so difficult. So, yes, it does matter. Apparently lying to employers and the public you’re representing when the lie benefits you personally and professionally is a deficit in character. However, the fight for equality is too important to all Americans to lose someone as passionate as she is and who has accomplished as much as she has. This seems more a case of her standing up and saying, “I am Spartacus!” rather than a conspiracy to defraud. Let’s give her a Bill Clinton Get Out of Jail Free card on this one (#Ididnothavesex) and let her get back to doing what she clearly does exceptionally well—making America more American.

It’s given me the courage to also say, “I am Spartacus. All 5’8” of me.”

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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466. "Kareem hates the transgendered because he dared..."
In response to Reply # 446


  

          

compare Rachel to Caitlyn!!!

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
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Tue Jun-16-15 02:24 PM

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456. "whatever happened to being happy with the uniform that god gave you?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

that's done and over with?

  

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NikaMandela
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458. "we're way too self-indulgent and narcissistic for that nonsense."
In response to Reply # 456
Tue Jun-16-15 02:36 PM by NikaMandela

          

we're way too evolved and eating too good.

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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477. "Damn. et tu Nika?"
In response to Reply # 458


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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NikaMandela
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486. "?"
In response to Reply # 477


          

  

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SoWhat
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460. "absolutely. "
In response to Reply # 456


  

          

trans is the new black.

all the cool kids wanna transition into new identities be they sex, gender, race, species or anything else. it's so passe to be comfortable in your own skin. if you aren't trans you might as well be dead.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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469. "not possible"
In response to Reply # 456


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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atruhead
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478. "1) everyone doesn't believe in god"
In response to Reply # 456


  

          

2) the same way Im fine with someone not believing in god, I'm fine with them being drawn to love someone of the same sex or change their gender

but mostly: you cant change your ethnic makeup unless you're mentally ill. a black trans (wo)man is still black, a white woman pretending to be black is nuts

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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499. "this is/was the same argument made against transsexuals/transgenders"
In response to Reply # 478


  

          

>but mostly: you cant change your ethnic makeup unless you're
>mentally ill. a black trans (wo)man is still black, a white
>woman pretending to be black is nuts

just replace a few words...

>but mostly: you cant change your sex unless you're
>mentally ill. A man pretending to be a woman is nuts.

and you've arrived at the classic, often used argument against transsexuals/transgenders.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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atruhead
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501. "there's enough evidence that says transgender life is valid"
In response to Reply # 499


  

          

transpecies didnt exist before last week. you could pass if you were able to get away with it, but being one race and saying you think you were born another is certifiable

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
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503. "still a similar argument"
In response to Reply # 501


  

          

>but being one sex and saying you think you were born another is certifiable

see how this works? Pretty much every argument against "transracial" being a real thing has been made against transsexuals/transgenders.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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468. "I am noticing a trend on FB, my friends with the most identity issues"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

(i.e., a lot of black kids who grew up around white people) are the most defensive about RD.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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470. "interesting"
In response to Reply # 468


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Tue Jun-16-15 03:34 PM

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475. "For me, FB has been surprisingly quiet..."
In response to Reply # 468


  

          


Folks will post links to stories about her but the actual conversation has been almost non-existent.

I'm curious...are the black folks you know (the ones who grew up around mostly white folks) defending her or are they defending the right to adopt another race.

  

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SoWhat
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476. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 468


  

          

still trying it, huh?

good luck w/this.

fuck you.

  

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akon
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479. "'we need allies, not replacements' the daily show"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i think that pretty much sums up the whole
but she's done so much for us lately,
because she hasnt done even a quarter as much as the women
of the black lives matter movement
neither do we really know what she's done except show us how to style our hair (sic)

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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487. "and there it is."
In response to Reply # 479


  

          

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Tue Jun-16-15 06:55 PM

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491. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 479


  

          


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Vex_id
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489. "akon & blkprincemd: What exactly is my "agenda"?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've thoroughly laid out my view in this post, yet you both have implied that I'm using this post to further some type of ulterior agenda? lol

What is that agenda?

-->

  

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flionel
Member since Jul 08th 2010
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Wed Jun-17-15 12:06 AM

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492. "transracial isnt a thing and never will be"
In response to Reply # 489


  

          

The correlation between transgendered and transracial is offensively stupid. A transgendered person's transformation and the psychology behind is extremely complex. There is literaly no evidence of transracial identity complex as race is based on a multitude of factors.

I suggest reading up on transgendered people's plight and gender realignment procedures before you make a post trying to trivalise it.

Also, give an actual example of trans-racial people and not hypothetical discussions.

PS. I suggest listening to this podcast...the first ten minutes will give you a reason as to why Rachel Doezel is racist.

https://soundcloud.com/theread/imitation-of-life

  

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Vex_id
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493. "We've already discussed that."
In response to Reply # 492


          

thanks.

-->

  

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flionel
Member since Jul 08th 2010
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495. "Than the topic is closed. "
In response to Reply # 493


  

          

  

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akon
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496. "you couldve just responsed under what is the agenda post"
In response to Reply # 489


  

          

im not trying to read your mind
we speculating though

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
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497. "you mentioned that you 'agreed' that there was a specific agenda at play"
In response to Reply # 496


          

so I asked you: what's the agenda, then?

-->

  

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akon
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504. "your motivation is very clear, your agenda... we still waiting"
In response to Reply # 497


  

          


you are clearly dismissive of the social, cultural and historical context that makes up the black identity,
distilling it down to a notion of a 'fluid' identity
i.e being black is only a state of mind that is
divorced from the social and political reality of what it means to be black in this country

so we can choose to ignore what gives this social construct its material meaning,
it just becomes a 'feeling' as is the case of rachel

which is not the actual reality- the only people for whom this fluidity seems to be available is white folks
most black people - even when they do want to acknowledge their white identity are considered black.
there's nothing like a self-identity when it is subsumed by societal perspectives

this is different from those in this post here who's agenda is mainly to discredit the transgender experience
and this difference is what blkprince alludes to
so i still ask, what is *your* agenda?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
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508. "you say it's 'very clear' yet you can't even say what it is."
In response to Reply # 504


          

So, there's really no other rational explanation other than....

you mad, doggie?

>you are clearly dismissive of the social, cultural and
>historical context that makes up the black identity,
>distilling it down to a notion of a 'fluid' identity
>i.e being black is only a state of mind that is
>divorced from the social and political reality of what it
>means to be black in this country

Never *once* did I say that. Projecting on 1,000, much?
Show me where I said that (you can't). What i did say is that
race (alike gender) - is a social construct that only has meaning
when we assign meaning to it. Transgender/transrace theories
identify and acknowledge that fluidity is inherent in these systems
of identification - but that doesn't mean that "being black is only
a state of mind" nor does it mean that it's "divorced from the political reality
of what it means to be black." That's silly and anyone making that claim
doesn't understand the reality of how race actually has functioned in society, outside
of theoretical discussions.

newsflash: It's possible to acknowledge transrace theory of fluidity *and* understand the
the political realities attached to black identity in America. But nuance has never been a strong suit on OKP.

>this is different from those in this post here who's agenda is
>mainly to discredit the transgender experience
>and this difference is what blkprince alludes to
>so i still ask, what is *your* agenda?

That's another hilarious attempt by Goldmind and others in here - trying to categorize everybody into one neat box who have a differing opinion on the matter. According to your prescription, MHP, Jelani Cobb, and a myriad of other black academics are either "trying to back transgender into a corner" or "do not understand the political realities of blackness."

No. They understand the realities in abundance, they simply have a more nuanced perspective on race and aren't afraid to discuss it from multiple angles.


-->

  

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SoWhat
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509. "have the decency to leave this alone today."
In response to Reply # 508


  

          

sheesh.

Blackness is under attack today - LITERALLY. leave this alone.

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Jun-18-15 11:51 AM

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510. "I'm not leaving it alone - I'm actively working to combat it."
In response to Reply # 509


          

open discourse on a message board is not the problem.

>Blackness is under attack today - LITERALLY. leave this
>alone.

I'm actually assisting and doing something about it with my friends (who i consider family) from that region who are grieving. A close friend of mine from law school was affected by this - and I take it very seriously. As I type this plans are made to head down to South Carolina to lend my support to my family who is grieving.

I do not require your validation.


-->

  

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SoWhat
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511. "k."
In response to Reply # 510


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Teknontheou
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514. "I think we have the same friend."
In response to Reply # 510


  

          

Initials A.H.? Although I knew her by the initials A.M. in undergrad.

  

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Vex_id
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515. "RE: I think we have the same friend."
In response to Reply # 514


          

>Initials A.H.? Although I knew her by the initials A.M. in
>undergrad.

wow. Small world.

-->

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Sat Jun-20-15 03:45 PM

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562. "It's pretty clear"
In response to Reply # 489


  

          

>I've thoroughly laid out my view in this post, yet you both
>have implied that I'm using this post to further some type of
>ulterior agenda? lol
>
>What is that agenda?


Using Rachel dolezal as an attempt to sublimate her admittedly misguided but ultimately cannibalististic, appropriative but worse tyrannical cultural views into validity.
Hijacking a term that already has a use and shoehorning it into a purpose that clearly serves sone sort of personal purpose as someone who mainly and primarily surrounds himself with black people also attended an HBCU.
You could take it from there though as to why you're pushing this so hard and let us know in your words why this appeals so heartily to you.
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
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Wed Jun-17-15 11:18 PM

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500. "To me it's because it's possible to be born intersex"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But I don't know of any instances of two 100% Caucasian parents giving birth to a baby that was genetically made up of something that wasn't them.

The genetic lottery has made for a lot of gender ambiguity for many. It does not do the same for race outside of instances where the parents are already interracial as far as I can see.

Just IMO though.

  

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luminous
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513. "Sandra Laing?"
In response to Reply # 500


  

          

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
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Thu Jun-18-15 06:17 PM

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516. "Didn't she have some unknown African ancestor though?"
In response to Reply # 513


  

          

Just IMO though.

  

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luminous
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518. "the assumption is that she must have"
In response to Reply # 516


  

          

but they don't really know. i guess now they could do one of those ancestry DNA test...

but going back 3 known generations... no black people.

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
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Sat Jun-20-15 09:43 PM

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566. "Yeah, but in South Africa"
In response to Reply # 518


  

          

If it happened in Japan or Korea with no chance of outside ancestry I'd be more inclined to go with the concept.

Just IMO though.

  

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luminous
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576. "japan and korea?"
In response to Reply # 566


  

          

isn't your original example about two 100% Caucasian parents?

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

  

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Ted Gee Seal
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579. "The original example yes"
In response to Reply # 576


  

          

I was talking to an underlying principle.

Perhaps I should have said Sweeden or something like that.

Just IMO though.

  

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Benji
Member since Jun 11th 2014
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Wed Jun-17-15 11:46 PM

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502. "the difference:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dr-drew-frustrated-with-dolezal-interviewers-dont-give-wiggle-room/

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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517. "Transgender is likely biologically programmed"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Transrace is just funny

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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Jon
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519. "Transgender is more likely imaginary."
In response to Reply # 517


          

There's no way a male can know that the strange feelimg they feel is in fact womanhood.

Transgender is even less biological if people are insisting on a concept of gender that is removed and separate from the concept of sex.

  

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cgonz00cc
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Fri Jun-19-15 07:43 AM

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521. "fairly condident you arent qualified to make that kind of assessment"
In response to Reply # 519


  

          

Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears

If you care to do some reading on the neurological markers of gender id be happy to discuss it with you afterwards

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Fri Jun-19-15 08:11 AM

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523. "i've done some and it still appears pretty damn inconclusive"
In response to Reply # 521


  

          

people always do this though...

"u haven't done your research and i'm not going to do it for u nor am i going to give any real indication i have either"

most of the studies i read seem to mirror this one:

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sexual_Differentiation_of_the_Human_Brain__Relevance_for_Gender_Identity,_Transsexualism_and_Sexual_Orientation.pdf

which ranges from undecided to dubious about those markers indicating anything gender-identity

and others that outright reject it which i tend to distrust due to a bit of bias detection

i just think it's odd people are already positioned to doubt that if the research is done...people won't jump to the same conclusions...

people keep bringing up political issues with the idea of changing racial identity as if there isn't a huge fucking issue ball of political mess when it comes to gender politics


Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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SoWhat
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524. "when you ppl have a better transrace example than Rachel D"
In response to Reply # 523
Fri Jun-19-15 08:33 AM by SoWhat

  

          

then maybe you'll get more traction w/this. until then as long as the transrace bullshit is exemplified by fraudulent psychopaths like Rachel Dolezal ain't nobody tryna hear y'all's hypothetical, fictional shit.

best of luck w/it.

fuck you.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Fri Jun-19-15 02:18 PM

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529. "MJ and Sammy Sosa?"
In response to Reply # 524


  

          

u rejected them before but not sure why other than they didn't outright say "I'm white in a _____ body" although they did get the "treatments" to alter the way they look in more ways than one

but again all of this comes back to theories being backed largely by inconclusive science

bottom line for me is always pragmatism...the political side is important and a lack of pragmatism can be forgiven when proven necessary

body dysmorphic disorder is serious and if gender reassignment is what they want to do...i think they are well within their rights to do so and as a society we need to mature enough to allow people the social room to do so somewhat comfortably

but i think in any situation...trying to apply self-identity to social membership identity or legal identity is not pragmatic and also problematic

everyone is bringing up historical baggage that surrounds race but pardons it or minimizes it when it surrounds gender/sex...problematic

the 2 arenas where i think it's most problematic is justice system (read:prison) and sports...

there are some solutions offered in those arenas and they seem pretty inadequate

fuck it, i'm done

*logging off*


Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14000 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 02:53 PM

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533. "MJ didn't just NOT claim white. He vehemently claimed Black."
In response to Reply # 529


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7WP4prIwUQ

Yall really gotta take MJ outta this conversation.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Jun-19-15 03:52 PM

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535. "nope and nope."
In response to Reply # 529


  

          

>u rejected them before but not sure why other than they
>didn't outright say "I'm white in a _____ body"

yes. that's exactly why.

although they
>did get the "treatments" to alter the way they look in more
>ways than one

so what?

i disagree that transracialism is like transgenderism, but for the sake of argument...your example reminds me of the difference between cross-dressing and transgenderism. cross-dressers are ppl who wear clothing typically associated w/a gender other than the one that matches their sex but they are not transgender as their cross-dressing doesn't impact or reflect their gender identity. like a male who wears women's clothing but lives and identifies as a man is not transgender. so, a black man who has altered his hair and skin w/features typically associated w/the white race (or any non-black race) but who lives and identifies as a black man is not transracial for the purpose of this discussion. and that's why i say MJ and Sosa don't apply.

fuck you.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:23 PM

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546. "Why, in this perspective, does the claimed race identity"
In response to Reply # 535


          


supersede biological indicators of race in some applications and not others?

> so, a black man who has altered his hair and skin w/features
>typically associated w/the white race (or any non-black race)
>but who lives and identifies as a black man is not transracial
>for the purpose of this discussion. and that's why i say MJ
>and Sosa don't apply.

For example, according to what has been championed throughout this post, the following would be true:

Michael Jackson, in spite of presenting with the physical features of a race different from the race he was born, is of black race simply because he said so. Rachel Dolezal, in spite of presenting with the physical features of a race different from the race she was born, is not of black race simply because she said so.

^How is this not logically fallacious?

And in the case of Sammy Sosa, we do not know whether Sammy Sosa identifies as a black man or did when he presented as a black man physically. We do know that many individuals in/from the Dominican Republic, with significant African ancestry, do not identify as black. So perhaps a better question is would YOU have considered Sammy Sosa, in his former physical state, a black man if he did not identify as such? What about other Dominicans that look similar to Sammy's former physical state but do not identify as black. Would you consider them black people?

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-20-15 02:17 PM

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554. "Race is not subjective. "
In response to Reply # 546


          

Ethnicity might be.

Niggas know they are niggas because the world treats them like niggas.

Mike was treated like one, and
said he was one, so he was one.

It's pretty simple, if you let it be.


When people of all ethnicities get equal treatment, race won't be a thing.

But we ain't there yet.
So niggas still exist,
and you can't not be one if you are, and if you ain't one, you never will be one.


>supersede biological indicators of race in some applications
>and not others?
>
>> so, a black man who has altered his hair and skin
>w/features
>>typically associated w/the white race (or any non-black
>race)
>>but who lives and identifies as a black man is not
>transracial
>>for the purpose of this discussion. and that's why i say MJ
>>and Sosa don't apply.
>
>For example, according to what has been championed throughout
>this post, the following would be true:
>
>Michael Jackson, in spite of presenting with the physical
>features of a race different from the race he was born, is of
>black race simply because he said so. Rachel Dolezal, in spite
>of presenting with the physical features of a race different
>from the race she was born, is not of black race simply
>because she said so.
>
>^How is this not logically fallacious?
>
>And in the case of Sammy Sosa, we do not know whether Sammy
>Sosa identifies as a black man or did when he presented as a
>black man physically. We do know that many individuals in/from
>the Dominican Republic, with significant African ancestry, do
>not identify as black. So perhaps a better question is would
>YOU have considered Sammy Sosa, in his former physical state,
>a black man if he did not identify as such? What about other
>Dominicans that look similar to Sammy's former physical state
>but do not identify as black. Would you consider them black
>people?
>

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sat Jun-20-15 03:53 PM

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563. "You have not resolved the logical flaws in this perspective."
In response to Reply # 554


          


>said he was one, so he was one.
>

^This is what does not make sense. The whole reason this debate has become a hot topic recently is because Rachel Dolezal identifies as a black woman and many people strongly feel that she is NOT one.

>you can't not be one if you are, and if you ain't one, you
>never will be one.

Which would then point towards SOME involvement of biological indicators of race (skin colour, hair texture, nose size/shape, eye shape, etc.) in the formation of racial identity. These would be the only contributing factors that are quantifiable and resolute.

However people want to acknowledge biological indicators of race in an inconsistent fashion, dependent on who it is. And people want to defer to the racial identity claimed in an inconsistent fashion, dependent on who it is lol.

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-20-15 11:24 PM

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567. "Michael Jackson got treated like a nigga."
In response to Reply # 563


          

MTV initially refused to play Billie Jean because he was a nigga.

The Tom Sneddon got the law changed and scoured the earth for 10 years looking for evidence to put Michael Jackson in jail because he was a nigga.

Sony attempted to screw Michael Jackson out of his back catalogue because he was a nigga .

Bill O'Riley was talking about child molestation accusations on the day of MJ's funeral because he was a nigga.

We know MJ was a nigga because he was treated like one. His plastic surgery and his skin disease did not stop the industry and the media and the police from treating him like a nigga.

So it is pretty racist to assume that MJ could stop being a nigga just by saying he wasn't one anymore.

And BTW, he never claimed to not be a nigga, but in fact, maintained to his dying day that he got a raw deal because no matter what he accomplished, it didn't stop him from being treated like a nigga.



Had MJ claimed that he was no longer a nigga, he would have gotten the side eye and still would have gotten the same nigga treatment that he got when he was alive.



I am not having this conversation with you unless you
can articulate, in your own words, what the difference is between race an ethnicity.



Because if you think you can change youe race by claiming to not be Black, you are saying that Black people can become immune from racism if they decide to be white.


Distinguish race from ethnicity and maybe we can talk.

if you can't draw that distinction, there is no need to
have this conversation.


  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Sun Jun-21-15 06:37 AM

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570. "Some great points, but this is what you are not going to do:"
In response to Reply # 567
Sun Jun-21-15 06:43 AM by kfine

          

You are not going to dismiss me from a line of questioning I initiated.

If you had made a little more effort to go through the various contributions to this thread, you would have seen that you and I do not disagree on the need for clear distinction between race and ethnicity when discussing this topic. In fact it is one of the first comments I made and I've brought it up, repeatedly, throughout the post.

>MTV initially refused to play Billie Jean because he was a
>nigga.
>
>The Tom Sneddon got the law changed and scoured the earth for
>10 years looking for evidence to put Michael Jackson in jail
>because he was a nigga.
>
>Sony attempted to screw Michael Jackson out of his back
>catalogue because he was a nigga .
>
>Bill O'Riley was talking about child molestation accusations
>on the day of MJ's funeral because he was a nigga.
>
>We know MJ was a nigga because he was treated like one. His
>plastic surgery and his skin disease did not stop the industry
>and the media and the police from treating him like a nigga.
>
>So it is pretty racist to assume that MJ could stop being a
>nigga just by saying he wasn't one anymore.
>
>And BTW, he never claimed to not be a nigga, but in fact,
>maintained to his dying day that he got a raw deal because no
>matter what he accomplished, it didn't stop him from being
>treated like a nigga.
>
>Had MJ claimed that he was no longer a nigga, he would have
>gotten the side eye and still would have gotten the same nigga
>treatment that he got when he was alive.
>

Again, that he would get a side eye for claiming a race other than black is problematic, logically. This is also why I proposed the case of Dominicans with significant African ancestry who do not claim to be of black race. In fact the Dominican Republic might be the perfect case to wrangle the logical flaws in the perspective as well as yours because you have a range of individuals, all with significant African ancestry, that claim different racial identities and are treated with varying levels of discrimination.

You are arguing as if Black Americans are the only group of black race on the planet. A sound perspective on race would have some external validity in application.

>
>
>I am not having this conversation with you unless you
>can articulate, in your own words, what the difference is
>between race an ethnicity.
>
>Because if you think you can change youe race by claiming to
>not be Black, you are saying that Black people can become
>immune from racism if they decide to be white.
>

What are you even talking about? Did I say this is what I think? I am trying to make sense of a position that appears to place almost exclusive weight on the racial identity 'vehemently claimed' by individuals, but in an inconsistent fashion. If you do not subscribe to the view either, stop derailing and allow those that do to explain.

>
>Distinguish race from ethnicity and maybe we can talk.
>if you can't draw that distinction, there is no need to
>have this conversation.
>
>

My preferred style of discussion is to be respectful, even during confusion or disagreement. In my eyes you have crossed that line. So I actually encourage you to stop replying to me as you have said, thanks.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:30 PM

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549. "Also, once you get into 'living as a black man' you are veering"
In response to Reply # 535


          



from race into ethnicity. What does it mean to 'live black'? It can be described differently by black groups around the globe because it is influenced by culture. This is a separate process from race classification. And part of this debate is whether it is a separate process from the formation of a racial identity.



>but who lives and identifies as a black man is not transracial
>for the purpose of this discussion. and that's why i say MJ
>and Sosa don't apply.


  

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akon
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27010 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 09:55 AM

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525. "500+ posts on a fictitious group of people and their"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

(supposed) fictitious opression

all done to discredit, dismiss and disavow the suffering and continued marginalization of two groups of real people

okp never ceases to surprise me.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 02:00 PM

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526. "fictitious vs theoretical"
In response to Reply # 525


  

          

grip tightly to whatever hair u can splice though

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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SoWhat
Charter member
154163 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 02:02 PM

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527. "theoretical vs. actual"
In response to Reply # 526


  

          

>grip tightly to whatever hair u can splice though
>
>

fuck you.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 02:19 PM

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530. "today's actual was yesterday's theoretical"
In response to Reply # 527


  

          

ur turn

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Fri Jun-19-15 02:36 PM

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531. "and yesterday's actual is today's okayplayer"
In response to Reply # 530


  

          

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
1093 posts
Fri Jun-19-15 02:37 PM

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532. "No."
In response to Reply # 530


          

Today's actual have been telling us for years about their subjective experiences.

Over time, enough ppl understood and now we undunderstand those subjective experiences better.

Those of us that aren't assholes listen to ppl that tell us about their experiences.


Nobody sits in a lab thinking of new, theoretical ways to not fit in.

If transrace is a thing, those transracial ppl will tell us.

But they haven't.

So it sounds like you ppl are full of shit.

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 02:06 AM

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538. "There have been... On TV even, but we collectively said"
In response to Reply # 532


  

          

"that nigga's crazy" and laughed.

There was a chick making the talk show rounds back in the 90's who made this very claim. Even with as black as she was, she said she believed herself to be white. She said some of the same things transsexuals/transgenders said about themselves and every single black person that saw those shows basically said she was batshit insane. No one took her seriously.

I've already given examples of folks that would be labeled "transracial" from my own life. I've also pointed out that the concept of being transracial is almost as old as the concept of "gender" as applied to human beings.

What's particularly interesting about this entire debate is how quick the LGBT community started using the very same language against "transracial" being real as people from the 80's on up were using against transsexuals/transgenders and even against homosexuals themselves. The LGBT community has basically assumed the role of the oppressor in this argument. Even in this very thread we have examples of this and y'all don't even appear to realize the parallels between your own rhetoric and every LGBT opponent that has ever been published or spoken out against y'all publicly.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79325 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 07:41 AM

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539. "Its crazy how dismissive they are on this subject"
In response to Reply # 538


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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akon
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Sat Jun-20-15 08:05 AM

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540. "because your phobias are peeping"
In response to Reply # 539
Sat Jun-20-15 08:06 AM by akon

  

          

we've learned to stay woke

and lol@ the LBGTQ wiki primer

transgendered folk always existed
and within gay communities-
they might have occupied the fringes of the collective narrative,
but they existed
and dont confuse the narrative or attempts at theorizing the lgbtq identity with the actual business of living
which was happening with existing transgendered folks
and this is the main issue with y'all's imagined theory
apart from giving us anecdotes of people who did not of themselves self-identify as transracial
y'all cant point to a community of oppressed transracials
in fact, y'all went from its a concept that's been here for a while (post #2)
to its a concept that's emerging
to... lets pontificate on the what ifs of a fictitious and fictitiously oppressed group,
that we want to use to disabuse the notion of transgendered people's reality and in some cases,
of the social reality and repercussions of black folks lives in america


it would be cute if it werent for the fact that this week,
nine people are dead because they are black
not because they might have had some white ancestry, or lineage
but because they are black
and even if they were light skinned and biracial, that doesnt matter in *this* society

so miss me with all that we are oppressing imaginary folk
real folk are being oppressed out here. im more concerned with that





.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Jun-20-15 12:31 PM

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545. "smh, I'm not going to talk about Charelston in this thread. "
In response to Reply # 540


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:27 PM

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547. "the deflection exercises are astounding. Lot of mad & wrong posturing."
In response to Reply # 545


          


-->

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
1093 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 01:37 PM

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552. "I would expect you to intereptet things that way. "
In response to Reply # 547


          

It's oKay that you don't understand.

  

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Vex_id
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553. "thanks for that awesome insight, Mike. Keep hiding behind an alias."
In response to Reply # 552


          


-->

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-20-15 02:33 PM

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556. "Reply #555"
In response to Reply # 553


          

I will entertain this after you prove to me that you know what the words you are using mean.

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-20-15 11:59 AM

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544. "I'm sure you think so. "
In response to Reply # 538


          

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Jun-19-15 03:53 PM

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536. "today's theoretical is not yesterday's or today's actual."
In response to Reply # 530


  

          

*shrug*

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:31 PM

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550. "Why are there +500 posts?"
In response to Reply # 525


          

Because it's an interesting topic. Despite your most dedicated efforts, this is not an easily dismissed discussion where you can just say "oh, transrace isn't a 'thing' - next!" People have very strong feelings about this because it strikes people differently as it pertains to identity politics and subjective experience. The problem is, too many are trying to posit their subject experience as the objective way of looking at identity politics constructs such as race & gender.

That's never productive.

-->

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92696 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 03:37 PM

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560. "actually"
In response to Reply # 550


  

          

>Because it's an interesting topic. Despite your most
>dedicated efforts, this is not an easily dismissed discussion
>where you can just say "oh, transrace isn't a 'thing' - next!"
> People have very strong feelings about this because it
>strikes people differently as it pertains to identity politics
>and subjective experience. The problem is, too many are
>trying to posit their subject experience as the objective way
>of looking at identity politics constructs such as race &
>gender.
>
>That's never productive.

an informed cultural, historical and personal view is crucial to understanding what you are trying to race blind into being


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Jun-19-15 08:35 PM

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537. "i've been turning Japanese since I was 11."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so my transition into being Japanese is well underway. I'm transracial!

fuck you.

  

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akon
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Sat Jun-20-15 08:27 AM

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542. "my blacker than black dinka brethren put ash on their bodies"
In response to Reply # 537


  

          

and then look white.

ergo.
we are the first nation of transracials.
we are white.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sat Jun-20-15 08:31 AM

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543. "forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement"
In response to Reply # 542


  

          

all those people who were/are bleaching their skins
they are oppressed because... they are transracials
and the lgbtq community has refused to accept this.
and how? when they accept transgendered folk

bleaching.. the nexus of the transracial movement

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:28 PM

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548. "RE: forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement"
In response to Reply # 543


          


>bleaching.. the nexus of the transracial movement

except - of course - nobody has ever said that...except you at this moment.



-->

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92696 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 03:34 PM

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559. "why object now?"
In response to Reply # 548


  

          

Clearly it's an open thing you want right?
What everyone is fight in here for?
Ahistorical acultural views?
Why wouldn't bleaching be part this transracial movement you're championing?
Sammy Sosa would be your mascot
Rachel dolezal is your jump off point
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 03:21 PM

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558. "Alright, so can you please propose alternative explanations for"
In response to Reply # 543
Sat Jun-20-15 03:24 PM by kfine

          

this degree of permanent modification:


https://d39ya49a1fwv14.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Sammy-Sosa.jpg

http://plasticsurgeryfact.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Michael-Jackson-Nose-Job-Before-and-After.jpg


other than some form of race dysmorphia? No inflammatory baiting, personal attacks or reference to LGBTQ causes and experiences. Just answer the question.

What are other drivers that could be responsible for growing skin lightening into a multi-billion dollar industry across Africa, Asia and the Middle East?

What are other explanations for the creation of and the feelings shared in a documentary like BBC's 'Make me White'?

And why would any of these phenomena exist if race dysmorphia is 'fictitious'?


>
>bleaching.. the nexus of the transracial movement
>
>

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 04:45 PM

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564. "blah blah, white supremacy, blah blah making their appearance ideal"
In response to Reply # 558


  

          

If Bruce Jenner can change and look like a woman yet declare he still wants to fuck women then MJ can utilize as much money as he can to bleach his skin and alter his appearance to appear as white as possible, yest still try to maintain he's black as was stated earlier in this thread.

There are FTM trans that still want dick in them that identify as hetero.
There are MTF trans that still want to fuck broads and also identify as hetero (including Bruce Jenner).

If these are true, then a person can be transracial and go through the motions of changing their appearance to be the race they feel they really are internally, yet outwardly still cling to the race that has defined them up to this point because they don't believe people will understand them.

Lil Kim has been altering herself to look more and more Asian and even requested that an Asian actress be found to play her in "Notorious". Voletta Wallace has been quoted as saying Lil Kim is "... a white woman trapped in a black woman's body, and you can tell the world I said it, because those are Lil Kim's words."

Now... many of us think Lil Kim is batshit insane, but what if all her surgeries and shit stem from what Voletta said? I honestly wouldnt' be surprised if Lil Kim declared herself to be transracial in the next few months.

And y'all will still say she's crazy.
---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2218 posts
Sun Jun-21-15 06:51 AM

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571. "Lol I specifically asked for alternative explanations NOT"
In response to Reply # 564


          


involving some form of race dysmorphia and not referencing any LGBTQ causes or experiences

Thanks though (No snark)



>If Bruce Jenner can change and look like a woman yet declare
>he still wants to fuck women then MJ can utilize as much money
>as he can to bleach his skin and alter his appearance to
>appear as white as possible, yest still try to maintain he's
>black as was stated earlier in this thread.
>
>There are FTM trans that still want dick in them that identify
>as hetero.
>There are MTF trans that still want to fuck broads and also
>identify as hetero (including Bruce Jenner).
>
>If these are true, then a person can be transracial and go
>through the motions of changing their appearance to be the
>race they feel they really are internally, yet outwardly still
>cling to the race that has defined them up to this point
>because they don't believe people will understand them.
>
>Lil Kim has been altering herself to look more and more Asian
>and even requested that an Asian actress be found to play her
>in "Notorious". Voletta Wallace has been quoted as saying Lil
>Kim is "... a white woman trapped in a black woman's body, and
>you can tell the world I said it, because those are Lil Kim's
>words."
>
>Now... many of us think Lil Kim is batshit insane, but what if
>all her surgeries and shit stem from what Voletta said? I
>honestly wouldnt' be surprised if Lil Kim declared herself to
>be transracial in the next few months.
>
>And y'all will still say she's crazy.
>---------------------------
>
>"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the
>peace when we were getting laid out?
>Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances?
>Where is the peace then?
>They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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SoWhat
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Sun Jun-21-15 07:52 AM

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573. "Find one who actually LIVED as a white person and you might have a point..."
In response to Reply # 558


  

          

MJ lived as a Black man even with those new features. I haven't heard Sosa trying to live as other than a black man either.

Did they wanna LOOK 'white'? I dunno - even if they did that's not the same as living as a white person. At least not necessarily.

Like this crazy woman Rachel D - if she did all the same shit she has done but identified as white the whole time then there's no story and no alleged transition. Same with your examples.

fuck you.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-20-15 01:35 PM

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551. "right? these females claim they were turning male since they were kids"
In response to Reply # 537


          

their transition to being female is well underway! They're transgender? harharharhar! what idiots! What's next? trans-felines? I was born a dog and i feel like a cat!

THIS WORLD IS COMING TO AN END OMG'Z CASE_ONE WAS RIGHT!


-->

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
1093 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 02:31 PM

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555. "Race is not a subjective experience. "
In response to Reply # 551


          

If you get treated like a nigga, you are one.

Ethnicity might be subjective,
but race is not.

If you don't understand the difference between race and ethnicity, maybe you should read
several books and then come back when you've learned something.

I won't believe you know the difference between race and ethnicity until you explain it in your own words.

I will be willing to entertain your ideas after you prove to me that you know the meaning of the words you are using.


I wish you the best of luck in your struggle to make sense of a confusing world.



>their transition to being female is well underway! They're
>transgender? harharharhar! what idiots! What's next?
>trans-felines? I was born a dog and i feel like a cat!
>
>THIS WORLD IS COMING TO AN END OMG'Z CASE_ONE WAS RIGHT!
>
>
>-->

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-20-15 07:27 PM

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565. "that's cute."
In response to Reply # 555


          

I don't reply to trolling aliases. When you're confident enough in your (poorly thought-out) world views, come back to us and be an actual adult.

-->

  

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Mike Jackson
Member since Dec 11th 2008
1093 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 11:35 PM

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568. "Evidence would prove otherwise. "
In response to Reply # 565


          

>I don't reply to trolling aliases.


Take the last word.
If we don't agree on the definitions of race and ethnicity, a conversation about race is pointless for both of us.

Good luck.

This was Joe Corn Mo. I have no idea what my password is, as I made it a point to stop arguing with you ppl.

But this post and the Charleston post compelled me to find an alias I made to log in and reply.

This conversation, like most others I've had with you,
is a waste of both of our time.

Good luck w/ whatever your point is.


  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 02:49 PM

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557. "video related"
In response to Reply # 551
Sat Jun-20-15 03:03 PM by PoppaGeorge

  

          

> What's next?
>trans-felines? I was born a dog and i feel like a cat!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxk0PHL9G0

*edit* this is not a rabbit hole you want to go down...

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

  

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SoWhat
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Sun Jun-21-15 07:44 AM

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572. "after this week I didn't wanna be Black no more and now I see my way out..."
In response to Reply # 551


  

          

and it's been there all along. but now I see it. bc I don't have to have struggled with this ever - I can just dip in and out of identities for nefarious purposes. hell, I can be a sociopath about the shit and it's okay. the transgendered had me scared - I thought I had to have a genuine issue to be able to make this work. but no. I was afraid that my transition would be a mockery of their real live drama. but no. it's totally fine for me to do this bc I just think being Black is too hard and being Japanese is cool - and it always feels great and it makes my toes curl and my body tingle! so why not? I have no reason not to. my wanting to be Japanese bc Black life is tough and full of terror and hate and fear and drama while Japanese life is like that feeling before a sneeze mixed with that feeling when you pee real hard after you had to for a real long time is totally as valid as anything I've heard from transgender ppl about their transitions so it's all the same thing. I shouldn't be ashamed of myself for being a bigot or insensitive or overly concerned with having a 'gotcha!' moment with ppl who are living real lives with real struggles and/or their advocates. those real ppl don't matter as much as my fictional (creative non fictional, that is) problem with this easy solution. I see it now.

fuck you.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79325 posts
Sun Jun-21-15 09:02 AM

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577. "These people know exactly how you feel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe4AZRk..."
In response to Reply # 572


          

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe4AZRkFYE

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Pete Burns
Member since Oct 18th 2005
5445 posts
Sat Jun-20-15 03:38 PM

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561. "lmao."
In response to Reply # 537
Sat Jun-20-15 03:51 PM by Pete Burns

          

well played.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sun Jun-21-15 03:41 AM

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569. "It's been a useful thread for me."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jun-21-15 03:55 AM by denny

          

The fact is.....the Rachel Dolezal case takes something to the forefront that no one is really talking about. And it's been around in feminist literature since the 60's. The principle is that one cannot justifiably identify with an oppressed group if they were not PERCEIVED as being part of that group.

Here's Robin Morgan from 1973:

I will not call a male “she”; thirty-two years of suffering in this androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the title “woman”; one walk down the street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers’ names and in our own, we must not call him sister.

Here's the article I got it from:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

This is the same principle that we dismiss Rachel Dolezal with. Of course, we have to note that Rachel LIED in adopting her proclaimed identity. It's worth clarifying here in a specific way. Rachel claimed to feel burdened in that wearing her hair naturally at the workplace would result in consequences for her career. There are some arguments being made (seeing them everywhere) that if Rachel's co-workers perceived that to be her real hair....and she suffered consequences as a result.....she is thereby experiencing racism just like a black woman. But no. Because inherent in the experience of having 'inappropriate hair' is the inability to opt out.

So Morgan's argument rings true for Rachel Dolezal.

And this is where this post went for me. How does a transgendered person try to persuade Robin Morgan to accept them for who they are?
To refer to them as a her/she?

What if we asked Robin Morgan....."I have male genitalia but yet I feel like a woman on the inside. I acknowledge that I was perceived as a male while growing up....so my experience is distinct from other woman. Amongst other dynamics...I have benefitted from male privilege."

Someone of Robin Morgan's thinking can go a lot of different ways with that question.

1. No, experiencing what it's like to be PERCEIVED as a woman is a defining criteria for womanhood.

2. OK, I respect that you identify as a woman while acknowledging that your experience is different than mine. But that makes you a transwoman. Not the same as me.

3. OK, I respect that you identify as a woman and as you gain experience in being perceived as a woman.....you and I will be the same.

Again, from the new Yorker:

In this view, gender is less an identity than a caste position. Anyone born a man retains male privilege in society; even if he chooses to live as a woman—and accept a correspondingly subordinate social position—the fact that he has a choice means that he can never understand what being a woman is really like.

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sun Jun-21-15 07:53 AM

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574. "Who are those? "
In response to Reply # 0


          


>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?

Who are those people ?

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sun Jun-21-15 09:17 AM

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578. "Those japanese who think they are black"
In response to Reply # 574


          

I remember a Black kid in a talk show who said he was a white on the inside.

It sounded crazy then.... and IMO it still sounds crazy.

Everyone talks about the privilege of cha ging back but everyone has that privilege.

We sympathize with transgender but that same community denies the next man or woman from being who they really feel they are on the inside.

Why is this?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Sun Apr-14-19 06:58 AM

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580. "race is only 200 years old and is a result of cultural insecurity "
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Apr-14-19 06:59 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

Not to mention not a thing

Transgender at least has more grounding in reality. Race is something people need to free themselves from not embrace

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Sun Apr-14-19 08:39 AM

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581. "One is backed by fake hebrews"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the other one isn't yet.

Tho the fake hebrews by claiming they are hebrew are in many ways claiming trans-racial.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sun Apr-14-19 09:17 AM

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584. "They aren't ready"
In response to Reply # 581


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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NoDrawls McGraw
Member since Jun 24th 2007
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Mon Apr-15-19 08:48 AM

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588. "My ninja, aintchu eva heard of Babysteps?"
In response to Reply # 581


  

          

You know GD ninjaz stay eatin that matrix-steak
©
https://youtu.be/6gL0xQHI0wo?t=17






https://chriswind.bandcamp.com/track/massage

"You can take an African out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the African"
Afro-Americana/Afro-Caribbana/Afro-Latino unite. We are ALL Black!

  

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sweeneykovar
Member since Oct 26th 2004
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Sun Apr-14-19 08:57 AM

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582. "One is real, has been occurring in virtually every culture and the other"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is not real at all. Simple.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sun Apr-14-19 06:13 PM

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586. "That approach we wouldn't acknowledge race which is only a few"
In response to Reply # 582


  

          

centuries old.

The question is why is one real and legitimate and the other is not and your answer is well, one is real and legitimate and the other is not. SMH.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sun Apr-14-19 08:28 PM

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587. "Are you TRYING to be dumb at this point?"
In response to Reply # 586


          

>The question is why is one real and legitimate and the other
>is not and your answer is well, one is real and legitimate and
>the other is not. SMH.
>


Actually, the question is in the subject line, and it's "What is the distinguishing difference between the 2" .... not "why is one real and legitimate and the other not" as you just completely lied about.
So sweeneykovar's answer is legitimately an answer to the question whether one agrees with it or not.


~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Teknontheou
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Mon Apr-15-19 09:28 AM

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590. "The best argument I've seen, which someone made above, is that"
In response to Reply # 586


  

          

race is a socially inherited label based on what all your ancestors were. You don't get to choose that - it's your familial history. If most of your ancestors were from Europe and were white, then you're white, even if you don't like it.

But you don't inherit your gender/sex (whichever one is what you feel, rather than your body parts - I forget) as a family trait. That's what you feel inside and that begins and ends with you.

That's the best counter-argument I've seen.

  

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ThaTruth
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589. "when the police pull me over can I identify as white?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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