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Subject: "What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrace?" This topic is locked.
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Vex_id
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64881 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:24 PM

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"What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrace?"


          

Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight, and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and belittle those who identify as transracial?

I'm not particularly interested in the conservative opinion here, whereby they think transgendered *and* transracial are silly concepts not worthy of equal rights under the law.

I'm more interested in the progressive opinion - whereby in one respect, the cause of transgendered people is championed, yet on the flip side, the mere mention of transracial is a crime worthy of condemnation and clowning.

Do tell.

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
wait, transrace is a thing now?
Jun 12th 2015
1
the concept has been here for quite some time.
Jun 12th 2015
2
      are we talking passing? or one drop?
Jun 12th 2015
10
      Just as with gender identity, there isn't one answer.
Jun 12th 2015
14
           and im not looking for one answer
Jun 12th 2015
41
      White folks & Asians been trans-racial since the birth of hip-hop
Apr 14th 2019
585
I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now
Jun 12th 2015
3
RE: I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now
Jun 12th 2015
4
      but see then you're making race about genetics.
Jun 12th 2015
7
           so race is more about history than one's actual ethnic makeup?
Jun 12th 2015
8
                I wonder.....
Jun 12th 2015
12
                What is an "actual ethnic make up" if not an expression of history?
Jun 12th 2015
13
                     Certainly, history is integral to identity.
Jun 12th 2015
22
                     No, because sexuality doesn't function the way race does.
Jun 12th 2015
28
                          So....
Jun 12th 2015
29
                               I'm a part of the race is a social construct crowd.
Jun 12th 2015
34
                                    hmmmm
Jun 12th 2015
37
                                    Actually two black people can have an asian baby
Jun 15th 2015
284
                                         Actually no they can't.
Jun 18th 2015
512
                                    This still minimizes male privilege and patriarchy
Jun 12th 2015
40
                                         Yep. You're right on all counts here.
Jun 12th 2015
44
                     ok, this is a good articulation
Jun 12th 2015
23
                          true. that's a part of it that i still haven't quite be able to reconcil...
Jun 12th 2015
31
Because race is an expression of privilege...
Jun 12th 2015
5
Male privilege doesn't exist in a top-down patriarchal structure?
Jun 12th 2015
6
A white woman is still more privileged that a blk man
Jun 12th 2015
19
      ^^^^^
Jun 12th 2015
32
      not entirely true.
Jun 12th 2015
59
           Trans-racial is just as non exist an as post black
Jun 12th 2015
65
                depends on what somebody means by "trans-racial"
Jun 12th 2015
72
                     Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
78
                          RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
80
                               RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over
Jun 12th 2015
137
                                    we will have to agree to disagree on a number of issues
Jun 13th 2015
154
                                         Race and gender are two separate things.
Jun 13th 2015
178
                                              for sure, but what distinguishes them from each other as "trans" theorie...
Jun 13th 2015
180
male privilege is fake now?
Jun 12th 2015
9
Well stated.
Jun 12th 2015
11
Not really.
Jun 12th 2015
16
      and they'd be wrong, but we have evidence of the contrary.
Jun 12th 2015
18
           what evidence is this?
Jun 15th 2015
235
i reject in totality that Black ppl are "below" anybody
Jun 12th 2015
15
what are we able to take from them?
Jun 12th 2015
38
.
Jun 12th 2015
17
Iin a lot of ways, "transracial" is an extreme expression of white privi...
Jun 12th 2015
33
Agreed.
Jun 12th 2015
35
this^^^
Jun 12th 2015
42
PREACH
Jun 12th 2015
45
I mean, I guess. But what about all the B/black people who
Jun 12th 2015
47
Most black ppl who have passed or do passed ARE part white...
Jun 15th 2015
278
so you're invalidating the whole concept based on one scenario?
Jun 12th 2015
62
You say that in contrast to how a transgendered woman is treated?
Jun 12th 2015
73
that same trans woman will also likely be taking hormone treatments
Jun 12th 2015
124
      #actually
Jun 13th 2015
142
High kicks!
Jun 12th 2015
96
..aaaaaannnnd SEEN.
Jun 15th 2015
254
      or scene
Jun 16th 2015
395
He's RIGHT!
Jun 12th 2015
He's RIGHT!
Jun 12th 2015
39
i get confused for conservative on this topic but i'm not
Jun 12th 2015
20
Well there's this:
Jun 12th 2015
24
That seems to be the crux of those who reject transgendered people:
Jun 12th 2015
27
A lot of these ambiguities spring up because...
Jun 12th 2015
21
Yes, I think this is a great point.
Jun 12th 2015
25
good post.
Jun 12th 2015
36
the black/Black dustups actually make sense in this scenario
Jun 12th 2015
43
I wonder what would happen if the idea of race was erased...
Jun 12th 2015
104
right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'
Jun 12th 2015
106
      RE: right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'
Jun 15th 2015
263
And this is exactly the struggle transgender people are fighting
Jun 12th 2015
48
this is pretty much what i came in to post
Jun 12th 2015
100
      nah...sloppy science is used for both
Jun 15th 2015
236
      it could be argued that gender is but sex isn't
Jun 15th 2015
238
The people comparing these two are either white or transphobic.
Jun 12th 2015
26
One is culture and the other is biological
Jun 12th 2015
30
I am pretty sure you can't distinguish fetuses by race.
Jun 12th 2015
76
What would be gender dysphoria for transrace?
Jun 12th 2015
46
the japanese b-stylers
Jun 12th 2015
49
Apparently they have theme parks
Jun 12th 2015
50
sad face
Jun 12th 2015
51
Jamal, talk white! (c) Kid in House Party 2
Jun 12th 2015
52
      oh shit
Jun 12th 2015
54
That girl, Hina, tho.....?
Jun 12th 2015
53
sans or with tan?
Jun 12th 2015
55
I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures
Jun 14th 2015
195
      RE: I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures
Jun 14th 2015
227
alright, IF...IF we were to take this goofy ass argument for real...
Jun 12th 2015
56
True.
Jun 12th 2015
57
Find someone 50 years ago....
Jun 12th 2015
58
      yes but, the act of gender bending has been around forever.
Jun 12th 2015
60
What if this was our out?
Jun 12th 2015
61
sure, but it's very arbitrary as to when people legitimize identity.
Jun 12th 2015
63
sidenote: notice how we champion self-identity in one instance...
Jun 12th 2015
64
because it's largely unnecessary
Jun 12th 2015
66
RE: because it's largely unnecessary
Jun 12th 2015
68
Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
70
      RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
71
           RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
74
                RE: Perhaps it's this simple
Jun 12th 2015
75
                     Yah....I anticipated that.
Jun 12th 2015
79
you can feel like a woman. feeling black doesn't exist without societal ...
Jun 12th 2015
67
why is that left up to you adjudicate and understand?
Jun 12th 2015
69
i'm not saying its up to me, i just want to understand how it works.
Jun 12th 2015
81
      it's obviously something emerging as an entry to a larger discussion
Jun 12th 2015
113
I think yall are wrong saying gender doesn't involve societal context
Jun 12th 2015
77
fair enough.
Jun 12th 2015
83
There's no way of ever knowing that what you're feeling is woman
Jun 12th 2015
95
right. trans is something that can be apparent during childhood
Jun 13th 2015
140
Who are these people who consider themselves transracial?
Jun 12th 2015
82
I've asked
Jun 12th 2015
92
      I think it's telling that they won't speak in specifics
Jun 12th 2015
122
           The reason there aren't specifics is because it's a new concept.
Jun 12th 2015
129
                Our specific example is Rachel
Jun 15th 2015
250
My question is why are people trying so hard to distinguish the two?
Jun 12th 2015
84
This is the most fascinating part of this conversation to me:
Jun 12th 2015
85
It just proves my theory that all ppl are self-ish and self-serving
Jun 12th 2015
87
I'm seeing a ton of pushback from black and white people on the internet
Jun 12th 2015
88
      Well I am talking about a very specific group, Pro-transgendered and ant...
Jun 12th 2015
91
      lol right.
Jun 12th 2015
105
one deals with gender, one deals with skin color
Jun 12th 2015
86
The argument (that we're trying to dismantle)
Jun 12th 2015
97
      don't dismantle it, simply ignore it
Jun 12th 2015
108
           I don't think it's a waste of time.
Jun 12th 2015
114
                i agree with that, however
Jun 12th 2015
115
transgender folks are normal & transrace
Jun 12th 2015
89
Whatever someone wants to identify as.....
Jun 12th 2015
90
being black stymies ANY exploratory process. off rip.
Jun 12th 2015
93
One is real and one is racist...
Jun 12th 2015
94
I think everyone agrees with you.
Jun 12th 2015
98
Nope. Its the same damn thing
Jun 12th 2015
101
Total utter self-serving bullshit. One is a thing and the other is not ...
Jun 12th 2015
102
Yup.. I was late as fuck on your angle but you are killing it on this is...
Jun 12th 2015
107
Please, you read Ms. Jenners 5 page article
Jun 12th 2015
111
      Haven't read it yet. I guess you didn't notice that my position isn't
Jun 12th 2015
126
lol wow.
Jun 12th 2015
109
      White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long
Jun 12th 2015
116
      predictably, you want to make this about you.
Jun 12th 2015
117
      k
Jun 12th 2015
118
      How does all you just said, not apply to transgendered?
Jun 12th 2015
128
      I agree with all that.
Jun 12th 2015
130
      It's the transgenders peeping in the locker room argument lol
Jun 12th 2015
119
           Except those are their unfounded fears
Jun 12th 2015
120
                So this lady in the news today is a racist?
Jun 12th 2015
121
                There is a high chance she made up fake hate crimes
Jun 12th 2015
123
                What makes her racist? Misguided comes to mind but what makes her a raci...
Jun 12th 2015
125
                     Well there is the black face part for starters.
Jun 12th 2015
133
                          Again, apply your logic to transgender.
Jun 12th 2015
136
                               black face and transgender people are not equivalent.
Jun 12th 2015
138
                                    If you describe what that lady is doing is blackface then clearly you
Jun 13th 2015
145
                                         If this was black face than that is black face
Jun 13th 2015
150
                                              It's really weird
Jun 13th 2015
152
                                                   it is - and it's also logically bankrupt.
Jun 13th 2015
153
                                                        Only if you continue to view this ahistorically
Jun 15th 2015
268
I guess I'm still stuck on the individuals being used for comparison
Jun 12th 2015
99
But this is only because we knew Jenner beforehand...
Jun 12th 2015
103
the major component to passing is secrecy otherwise you're not passing
Jun 12th 2015
127
How can one be trans race when one can only be human?
Jun 12th 2015
110
to put it this way, i'm not going to deconstruct a turd
Jun 12th 2015
112
To answer the ?, they say race isn't scientific but gender is.
Jun 12th 2015
131
Also this question from a white supremacist society is some bullshit
Jun 12th 2015
132
ya'll niggas, the white and black and others among you, are wild as shit...
Jun 12th 2015
134
i understand one and don't understand the other.
Jun 12th 2015
135
trans ppl have existed for centuries
Jun 13th 2015
139
Buddy and Vex...thank you
Jun 13th 2015
141
Too be fair, I don't if I am completely sold on either.
Jun 13th 2015
146
Not everybody views that as a good thing.
Jun 13th 2015
148
      Things that people say ONLY after integration for $100 Alex.
Jun 15th 2015
264
           Garvey said it prior...
Jun 16th 2015
334
                How'd that work out for the Garvey-ites?
Jun 16th 2015
414
                     Pretty well until integration. What has integration done for
Jun 17th 2015
498
she's good as any because you can't be transracial without lying
Jun 13th 2015
149
      Slippery slope.
Jun 13th 2015
151
           What part of "performance" is police brutality?
Jun 13th 2015
157
I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel.
Jun 13th 2015
143
RE: I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel.
Jun 13th 2015
144
Caitlyn Jenner is DOING exactly what you said she isn't doing.
Jun 13th 2015
147
It's simple:
Jun 13th 2015
171
      This is called a dinstinction without a difference.
Jun 15th 2015
262
That "going natural" bullshit offends me more than any of it really...
Jun 13th 2015
156
there is no difference bc you are who you are...
Jun 13th 2015
155
Melissa-Harris Perry is talking about it
Jun 13th 2015
158
Transrace is a new white supremacist buzzword. White privilege
Jun 13th 2015
159
lol this is such non-sense, but entertaining non-sense.
Jun 13th 2015
160
I outright dismissed "transracialism" when framed by the Jenner situatio...
Jun 13th 2015
161
      you dismissed the mere mention of "transrace" as white supremacist jargo...
Jun 13th 2015
164
I find it absolutely consistent to dismiss transgenderism and transracia...
Jun 13th 2015
181
I'm with what Buddy said ultimately:
Jun 13th 2015
162
Man, its so entertaining watching people justify one and not the other.....
Jun 13th 2015
163
that's the dangerous crossroads right there.
Jun 13th 2015
165
Post 171.
Jun 13th 2015
172
      Naw, that post is pretty refutable.
Jun 15th 2015
266
People may not like the comparative analysis w/ gender,
Jun 13th 2015
166
Potential biological and chemical urges are present in one case
Jun 13th 2015
167
this is why:
Jun 13th 2015
168
RE: What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrac...
Jun 13th 2015
169
There's a huge problem in this.
Jun 13th 2015
173
yea see, you want to make it about you.
Jun 13th 2015
175
Michael Jackson was transgender and transracial
Jun 13th 2015
170
Did he identify himself as a woman? I dont recall.
Jun 13th 2015
185
lulz
Jun 14th 2015
199
Michael Jackson was very clear that he was a Black man
Jun 19th 2015
534
and how is this (transrace, i.e.) not cultural appropriation?
Jun 13th 2015
174
It is if you think culture can be appropriated. If you think culture can...
Jun 13th 2015
183
      so american indians should stop bitching
Jun 14th 2015
196
.
Jun 13th 2015
176
huffpo article on Dolezal v Caitlyn
Jun 13th 2015
177
Started off promising but falls into the same trap.
Jun 13th 2015
179
i am so sick of
Jun 15th 2015
247
They are both the same in that neither exists.
Jun 13th 2015
182
your mistake is thinking social constructs don't exist.
Jun 13th 2015
184
They exist the same way black 'super strength' exists
Jun 14th 2015
193
      So you don't believe in the Social Construct of 'Money'?
Jun 16th 2015
481
           Money has the value of whatever goods or service are attached
Apr 14th 2019
583
Where is the "power" in being transgender? My nigga, what are you saying...
Jun 13th 2015
186
      The power is in the organizations that pull or grant their sponsorship
Jun 14th 2015
194
Would you agree that white supremacy is part of US ideology?
Jun 14th 2015
187
Lets say I'm for transrace.. outright lying about your past is that too?
Jun 14th 2015
188
exactly.
Jun 14th 2015
189
Go ahead and let the advocates align it with pathological lying
Jun 14th 2015
190
heh I'm sayin, is Bruce saying he was a mom who ran against women?
Jun 14th 2015
192
she is a pathological liar, she's not "trans race" or any other made up ...
Jun 15th 2015
279
I hear but that should apply to transgendered as well. Is
Jun 14th 2015
200
#192 e.g. did he say he raised kids as a mom?
Jun 14th 2015
213
yea, there have never been cases of trans lying about their sex
Jun 15th 2015
237
One is a fraud that requires you lie
Jun 14th 2015
191
I think you are confusing transexual and transgender
Jun 15th 2015
257
MHP is talking about it again this morning w/ a panel...
Jun 14th 2015
197
Proving?
Jun 14th 2015
198
      proving that there is merit in having a broader discussion.
Jun 14th 2015
210
           Has Dolezal even identified as trans-racial?
Jun 14th 2015
228
                the discussion is really less about her than it is the concept of transr...
Jun 14th 2015
229
                     White people have a constitution right to express themselves.
Jun 14th 2015
230
                          There's a difference in supporting Dolezal's decision to lie
Jun 17th 2015
494
Drop the passive-aggressiveness and state your major premise.
Jun 14th 2015
201
so... where do you stand on this?
Jun 14th 2015
202
i disagree that transrace & transgender are the same thing.
Jun 15th 2015
252
My major premise is that self-identification should have a broader scope
Jun 14th 2015
203
it's not valid if you have to make up a new history.
Jun 14th 2015
204
      u are letting the example ruin it though
Jun 15th 2015
256
I already have, but here's more detail attached on to it:
Jun 14th 2015
208
I don't think my point has been addressed yet.
Jun 14th 2015
220
this here
Jun 15th 2015
239
Niggas aint even trying to be subtle about it.
Jun 14th 2015
223
Those who are pro transracial is it okay to identify
Jun 14th 2015
205
Why do you have to resort to people transitioning for nefarious reasons?
Jun 14th 2015
206
lmao.. thr foxnews fear tactics are hilarious.
Jun 14th 2015
207
lol right. We've already been over this.
Jun 14th 2015
209
is there a moral / non nefarious reason to outright lie
Jun 14th 2015
211
      How's that different from Caitlin or Janet Mock applying for
Jun 14th 2015
212
      there's no lie attached
Jun 14th 2015
215
           Forget this woman. A white woman who feels in her soul that she is Blac...
Jun 14th 2015
221
                I guess I've arrived to a place where this is acceptable.
Jun 14th 2015
224
                That's a really good assessment of why the social justice world
Jun 14th 2015
225
                     ^excellent points by both you and denny here.
Jun 14th 2015
226
                Black/African American means you are a descendant of Africans
Jun 14th 2015
231
                     You are too focused on the lie
Jun 14th 2015
232
                     I doubt the gender/sex distinction has always been acknowledged everywhe...
Jun 15th 2015
242
      Is a transgender lying when they identify as the other sex?
Jun 14th 2015
217
           gender does not = biological sex
Jun 14th 2015
218
                The hypothetical application elides the two, so the question
Jun 14th 2015
222
white privilege >>>>>>> casino money and scholarships
Jun 14th 2015
214
      not necessarily. white people in california
Jun 14th 2015
216
           right, that's one small advantage in one very limited area
Jun 15th 2015
234
transracial is a thing, just not the way you think it is
Jun 14th 2015
219
^^^^of course this was ignored
Jun 18th 2015
520
Is it possible for an intersexed person not to be bisexual?
Jun 14th 2015
233
I don't think it's a 1:1comparison.
Jun 15th 2015
240
Are you implying that Transgenders have different biological
Jun 15th 2015
241
      nah, he's saying they visit doctors so it's different
Jun 15th 2015
255
      Uh no, I'm saying there's scientific research that has identified
Jun 18th 2015
506
           what research? what psychological markers?
Jun 19th 2015
522
      I said psychology and hormones.
Jun 18th 2015
505
The discourse would improve so much if special care was
Jun 15th 2015
243
Also, if we were to try to agree on a similar breakdown
Jun 15th 2015
244
This definition of race would disqualify Af-Am as black people
Jun 15th 2015
245
      I don't disagree that biological identifiers of race are problematic
Jun 15th 2015
246
This implies that trans people are trying to pass as cis...
Jun 15th 2015
248
^^^ this is where her story doesn't work for me
Jun 15th 2015
258
Again, complete utter bullshit.
Jun 15th 2015
259
      Try again...
Jun 15th 2015
261
      You're talking like everyone has a Masters degree in gender studies...
Jun 15th 2015
269
      I get that not everyone pays attention to these issues
Jun 15th 2015
271
      You sayin that transwomen don't describe themselves as "women"?
Jun 15th 2015
270
           They describe themselves as trans women.
Jun 15th 2015
272
           Yep yep.
Jun 15th 2015
274
           i have known a few trans men and women.
Jun 15th 2015
282
                The ones I've known/know freely identify themselves.
Jun 15th 2015
286
                     i agree.
Jun 15th 2015
289
                     Agreed
Jun 15th 2015
327
      a lot of people have this view
Jun 15th 2015
303
           Did you read the article you posted?
Jun 15th 2015
310
                you really can't be this stupid in real life
Jun 15th 2015
319
                     Are YOU this stupid?
Jun 15th 2015
322
A+ post would read again
Jun 15th 2015
249
She resigned. (very short swipe)
Jun 15th 2015
251
smart move.
Jun 15th 2015
253
after reading the post: one is made-up and the other is real
Jun 15th 2015
260
All social constructs are made up. That's why it's a social construct.
Jun 15th 2015
265
no, im very clear on what i mean
Jun 15th 2015
273
      Transrace has been a term used alot with people of one race
Jun 15th 2015
276
           in the context of this house that rachel built?
Jun 15th 2015
288
                Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? I think it might be.
Jun 15th 2015
292
                     LOL, yall are so pressed. "Tomorrow transclass might be a thing!"
Jun 15th 2015
296
                          *Kanye shrug* All types of things might become normal in
Jun 15th 2015
297
                               Like bestiality, right?
Jun 15th 2015
299
                                    I think that's an oversimplification of what's being discussed here.
Jun 15th 2015
301
                                    Let him have his fun, it makes him feel better.
Jun 15th 2015
304
                                    Let's get beyond "what" and talk about "who."
Jun 15th 2015
306
                                         I've never met one.
Jun 15th 2015
307
                                         Meeting one isn't a prerequisite for discussing an example.
Jun 15th 2015
312
                                              Agreed.
Jun 15th 2015
317
                                                   LOL.
Jun 15th 2015
321
                                         From what I've read, alot are transracial adoptees
Jun 15th 2015
308
                                              Now we're getting somewhere.
Jun 15th 2015
316
                                                   Lol, I literally never heard of it until last week.
Jun 15th 2015
323
                                                        This clearly explains why you kept relying on fictional scenarios
Jun 15th 2015
330
                                                             Oh, ok.
Jun 15th 2015
331
                                                             *dancehall horns*
Jun 16th 2015
338
                                    lol. Yup.
Jun 15th 2015
302
                                    You don't need to fear that transrace might cause people to turn
Jun 15th 2015
305
                                         And you don't need to fear the transclassers. Or the beastiality mvmt.
Jun 15th 2015
309
                                              You're probably right - I don't detect much of a threat from either of
Jun 15th 2015
311
several
Jun 15th 2015
275
      she sued howard for white discrimination? wtf?
Jun 15th 2015
291
      oh my lord.
Jun 15th 2015
294
      Bingo. Reply #188
Jun 15th 2015
295
           are you saying your dusty approval isnt needed for transracial?
Jun 16th 2015
345
                Yep. These transracial people in your imagination don't need my approval
Jun 16th 2015
361
here is the thing. Rachel is no Rosa Park (and definitely not a saint)....
Jun 15th 2015
267
You aren't being intellectually honest.
Jun 15th 2015
277
Someone wrote a think piece complimenting her do's to boot
Jun 15th 2015
280
the hair is the best example to me.
Jun 15th 2015
281
So I guess you find weaves deceptive too huh?
Jun 15th 2015
290
      what if she sued Howard University for racial discrimination?
Jun 15th 2015
298
           What do you know about Howard? If being mad at Howard about how you
Jun 16th 2015
344
OK, but can we be clear about something? She IS a FRAUD.
Jun 15th 2015
283
I think they gave someone jail time here
Jun 15th 2015
314
Do you think she is a fraud because of her appearance?
Jun 16th 2015
352
heres the thing with that
Jun 15th 2015
333
I'M CHINESE NOW.
Jun 15th 2015
285
same trap though.
Jun 15th 2015
287
but technology still doesn't allow for it 100%
Jun 15th 2015
315
      Fine.
Jun 15th 2015
320
But you don't need mechanisms to change from one race to another.
Jun 15th 2015
293
      Okay. SHAZAM. Now you're White. Thank me later.
Jun 16th 2015
339
lolz. if it weren't for okp...
Jun 15th 2015
300
what's the agenda behind making this non-thing into a thing?
Jun 15th 2015
313
an attempt to paint transgender advocates into a corner
Jun 15th 2015
318
I would embrace transracial if it gives bi/multiracial people a voice
Jun 15th 2015
324
sure. but that's not what's going on.
Jun 15th 2015
326
      but now that its out there, can it be steered in a legitimate direction?
Jun 15th 2015
328
      probably not.
Jun 16th 2015
370
           so then someone like my Grandmother is?
Jun 16th 2015
427
                sure.
Jun 16th 2015
434
      right, but...
Jun 15th 2015
329
yep, anybody tying this to caitlyn jenner is telling on themself
Jun 15th 2015
325
      That's not really true at all. Go back to the original Jenner posts.
Jun 16th 2015
337
           well, hold on a minute...
Jun 16th 2015
340
           And here we have it
Jun 16th 2015
348
                i have never hid my hand on OKP, it is a slippery slope... and you are s...
Jun 16th 2015
349
                I know, but Buddy misrepresented your position. Shame on him.
Jun 16th 2015
357
                     so you admit its up to us to decide if we accept self identity? cool
Jun 16th 2015
445
                Conversation is going 360 because that leads us back to why not let RQ
Jun 16th 2015
351
                     true, i feel as tho if you ride for one why wouldnt you ride for the oth...
Jun 16th 2015
354
                     you want us to ride for something that does not exist?
Jun 16th 2015
366
                     I think that Rachel is a liar who knows she is white.
Jun 16th 2015
365
                     CJ hasn't engaged in fraud as RD has.
Jun 16th 2015
374
                          Yep yep
Jun 16th 2015
443
           'the progressive position' <-- *eyes roll*
Jun 16th 2015
341
                there is a lot of Fox News language from BOTH sides on this issue
Jun 16th 2015
346
                     uh huh.
Jun 16th 2015
369
the agenda of the op is bit more...personal methinks...but I'll leave it...
Jun 15th 2015
332
      and Blacks arent making it personal in regards to Rachel?
Jun 16th 2015
350
      what are u even replying to? certainly not what i wrote because
Jun 16th 2015
356
           lmao.. yall are hilarious in here
Jun 16th 2015
359
                huh? Who is yall? I'm not transgender or 'transracial'? So again what
Jun 16th 2015
364
                     theatre major? why so dramatic
Jun 16th 2015
382
                          yeah as I thought, just say u were wrong and pressed
Jun 16th 2015
398
                               nah, just realized you got a whole lotta bitch in u bruh, 64 oz large gu...
Jun 16th 2015
444
                                    stop tough typing on the internet and reply 398
Jun 16th 2015
454
                                         that isn't tough talk if it's the truth
Jun 16th 2015
464
      seen and agree
Jun 16th 2015
368
why does everyone continue to mention white supremacy
Jun 16th 2015
335
this.
Jun 16th 2015
373
Because the conversation isn't just about being transsexual?
Jun 16th 2015
400
Because its about a white woman that pretending to be black?
Jun 16th 2015
472
Jelani Cobb went in re: "Rachel Dolezal and Our Lies About Race"
Jun 16th 2015
336
I'm actually glad we're having this kind of uncomfortable...
Jun 16th 2015
342
There's one huge caveat to that statement, we didn't "create" transgende...
Jun 16th 2015
343
      I'm sure transgender had to face something every day before changing
Jun 16th 2015
347
           you're confusing sexuality and gender.
Jun 16th 2015
362
           What you have to keep in mind is...
Jun 16th 2015
376
                interesting break down
Jun 16th 2015
384
                so gender is more than a social construct?
Jun 16th 2015
431
                     Research on the subject is relatively new, but yes.
Jun 16th 2015
439
                          this is why it's so problematic
Jun 19th 2015
528
BTW, if RD does one of those ancestry.com DNA tests and turns out to be
Jun 16th 2015
353
nope
Jun 16th 2015
355
      can I be white?
Jun 16th 2015
367
           Knock yourself out. Self-identify however you like. That doesn't mean
Jun 16th 2015
378
           how do I go about "acting" white once I've transitioned?
Jun 16th 2015
393
                IDK. you decided you wanted to self-identify so present it how you see
Jun 16th 2015
413
                     I don't wanna "self-identify". I wanna be white!
Jun 16th 2015
459
           i dont know... i guess, it would probably be an uphill battle tho
Jun 16th 2015
388
*keeps unpopular opinion to self*
Jun 16th 2015
358
LOL, dont be scurred, its been civil
Jun 16th 2015
360
      the world is a shit show
Jun 16th 2015
363
           That's an interesting angle I haven't heard yet.
Jun 16th 2015
372
                i just feel like people are who and what they are.
Jun 16th 2015
377
                i agree
Jun 16th 2015
383
                me too, you summed up stance in one sentence
Jun 16th 2015
                me too, you summed up stance in one sentence
Jun 16th 2015
386
                I can't speak for Nika, but I view it like this...
Jun 16th 2015
379
                     I know some lite skint Black people in Charlotte who dont identify as Bl...
Jun 16th 2015
390
                     Here's the thing, though...
Jun 16th 2015
402
                          but... what about when society sees a women who is clearly a man?
Jun 16th 2015
453
                               I get how that can be rough...
Jun 16th 2015
457
                     What about the M2F who clearly presents as a Male though?
Jun 16th 2015
403
                          I can understand how it may be jarring...
Jun 16th 2015
409
No difference except one is the agenda of popular culture
Jun 16th 2015
371
cards on the table: who here actually identifies or wants to identify as
Jun 16th 2015
375
I considered my friend Black. She considered herself "bi-racial"
Jun 16th 2015
380
that's not 'transrace'.
Jun 16th 2015
381
How are you distinguishing trans-racial and bi-racial issues.
Jun 16th 2015
391
easily.
Jun 16th 2015
408
my wife has a friend who is white, she was born and raised in japan
Jun 16th 2015
394
      based on that she's not part of this discussion.
Jun 16th 2015
411
           why not?
Jun 16th 2015
441
                b/c nothing in that told me how SHE identifies.
Jun 16th 2015
442
                     my wife says she is japanese... we debated for a while about it
Jun 16th 2015
447
                          *shrugs*
Jun 16th 2015
448
                               sure
Jun 16th 2015
451
                                    'Japanese' is not a racial identity.
Jun 16th 2015
452
                                         he's extremely dumb...like seriously
Jun 16th 2015
455
                                         Until you let that bitch in you, walk up out you.. don't speak to me
Jun 16th 2015
463
                                              ...that reply wasn't to you.
Jun 16th 2015
465
                                                   sure it wasn't
Jun 16th 2015
467
                                         lol, true.. but you knew what I meant.
Jun 16th 2015
461
                                              i did and that's why i said from the top she has no place
Jun 16th 2015
462
This supports the idea that race isn't intrinsic
Jun 16th 2015
387
Exactly, I was wrong to try to insist on some biological basis. Clearly
Jun 16th 2015
397
      But there's a biological basis for gender and orientation...
Jun 16th 2015
405
           Sure there is a biological basis for orientation, but what about gender?
Jun 16th 2015
412
           The same...
Jun 16th 2015
417
                Come one yo, your source talks about Disorders of gender identity.
Jun 16th 2015
426
                     So, you're ignoring the part where I said research is new?
Jun 16th 2015
432
           Race is based on biological features as well. It's just that
Jun 16th 2015
416
                The interpretation of those biological features...
Jun 16th 2015
419
                     Would you disagree that 'feeling black' is part of a shared
Jun 16th 2015
422
                          Absolutely
Jun 16th 2015
425
                               Hm, interesting. I think this is where we disagree then.
Jun 16th 2015
430
                                    I'm not sure where we differ based on your statement.
Jun 16th 2015
436
                                         Sorry about that, you're right. I definitely stopped short.
Jun 21st 2015
575
no, she was regarded as 0.5, or pointy as we call it
Jun 16th 2015
389
      He thought he was going to pull a fast one on us.
Jun 16th 2015
392
      lol! how did i miss this
Jun 20th 2015
541
      She told me she was regarded as white. You saying she lying?
Jun 16th 2015
396
           yes,
Jun 16th 2015
399
                maybe I mis-remember, maybe she lied (I doubt it), maybe she encountered
Jun 16th 2015
404
                     categorically no
Jun 16th 2015
429
                          Ohh I am suppose to categorically believe you now based on your last pos...
Jun 16th 2015
480
                               believe whatever you want to believe
Jun 16th 2015
482
lol, no.
Jun 16th 2015
385
If we were to characterize "transrace" as
Jun 16th 2015
420
      no.
Jun 16th 2015
428
           Lol! Well thanks for setting me on the straight and narrow :)
Jun 16th 2015
433
           'maintains ___ ethnicity'
Jun 16th 2015
438
                In particular not Michael fucking Jackson.
Jun 16th 2015
449
                yup. very much so.
Jun 16th 2015
450
                Lol! Yall are so dramatic in here. Look,
Jun 16th 2015
473
                Alright, I see you.
Jun 16th 2015
471
                     great.
Jun 16th 2015
474
           show your work
Jun 16th 2015
435
                *pats head*
Jun 16th 2015
440
                     ric, don't accept this shit.
Jun 16th 2015
484
I've seen so many jokes this week about "trans"
Jun 16th 2015
401
LMFAO. Truth be told, there's really no end to this "self-identify
Jun 18th 2015
507
Crissle from The Read has a special message for this post:
Jun 16th 2015
406
I'm listening to it now. She's on point, as usual.
Jun 16th 2015
410
DAMN!
Jun 16th 2015
483
HUNDALASILIAH!!
Jun 16th 2015
485
Elon James White & team have a special message for this post:
Jun 16th 2015
407
If I was trying to prove this was an agenda, I'd ask who first described...
Jun 16th 2015
415
Why must there even be an agenda?
Jun 16th 2015
418
      I hear you. And I agree. I am just thinking out loud cause I can't deny ...
Jun 16th 2015
421
      Lol, of course. I wasn't coming at you (or anyone) specifically
Jun 16th 2015
423
      There doesn't have to be, but there is
Jun 16th 2015
424
      Seen.
Jun 16th 2015
437
      You are wise and intelligent
Jun 16th 2015
488
      beautifully articulated. thanks for that.
Jun 16th 2015
490
Kareem talkin' bout it (TIME mag swipe)
Jun 16th 2015
446
Kareem hates the transgendered because he dared...
Jun 16th 2015
466
whatever happened to being happy with the uniform that god gave you?
Jun 16th 2015
456
we're way too self-indulgent and narcissistic for that nonsense.
Jun 16th 2015
458
Damn. et tu Nika?
Jun 16th 2015
477
      ?
Jun 16th 2015
486
absolutely.
Jun 16th 2015
460
not possible
Jun 16th 2015
469
1) everyone doesn't believe in god
Jun 16th 2015
478
      this is/was the same argument made against transsexuals/transgenders
Jun 17th 2015
499
           there's enough evidence that says transgender life is valid
Jun 17th 2015
501
                still a similar argument
Jun 18th 2015
503
I am noticing a trend on FB, my friends with the most identity issues
Jun 16th 2015
468
interesting
Jun 16th 2015
470
For me, FB has been surprisingly quiet...
Jun 16th 2015
475
LOL
Jun 16th 2015
476
'we need allies, not replacements' the daily show
Jun 16th 2015
479
and there it is.
Jun 16th 2015
487
Agreed
Jun 16th 2015
491
akon & blkprincemd: What exactly is my "agenda"?
Jun 16th 2015
489
transracial isnt a thing and never will be
Jun 17th 2015
492
We've already discussed that.
Jun 17th 2015
493
      Than the topic is closed.
Jun 17th 2015
495
you couldve just responsed under what is the agenda post
Jun 17th 2015
496
you mentioned that you 'agreed' that there was a specific agenda at play
Jun 17th 2015
497
      your motivation is very clear, your agenda... we still waiting
Jun 18th 2015
504
           you say it's 'very clear' yet you can't even say what it is.
Jun 18th 2015
508
                have the decency to leave this alone today.
Jun 18th 2015
509
                     I'm not leaving it alone - I'm actively working to combat it.
Jun 18th 2015
510
                          k.
Jun 18th 2015
511
                          I think we have the same friend.
Jun 18th 2015
514
                               RE: I think we have the same friend.
Jun 18th 2015
515
It's pretty clear
Jun 20th 2015
562
To me it's because it's possible to be born intersex
Jun 17th 2015
500
Sandra Laing?
Jun 18th 2015
513
      Didn't she have some unknown African ancestor though?
Jun 18th 2015
516
           the assumption is that she must have
Jun 18th 2015
518
                Yeah, but in South Africa
Jun 20th 2015
566
                     japan and korea?
Jun 21st 2015
576
                          The original example yes
Jun 25th 2015
579
the difference:
Jun 17th 2015
502
Transgender is likely biologically programmed
Jun 18th 2015
517
Transgender is more likely imaginary.
Jun 18th 2015
519
      fairly condident you arent qualified to make that kind of assessment
Jun 19th 2015
521
           i've done some and it still appears pretty damn inconclusive
Jun 19th 2015
523
                when you ppl have a better transrace example than Rachel D
Jun 19th 2015
524
                     MJ and Sammy Sosa?
Jun 19th 2015
529
                          MJ didn't just NOT claim white. He vehemently claimed Black.
Jun 19th 2015
533
                          nope and nope.
Jun 19th 2015
535
                               Why, in this perspective, does the claimed race identity
Jun 20th 2015
546
                               Race is not subjective.
Jun 20th 2015
554
                                    You have not resolved the logical flaws in this perspective.
Jun 20th 2015
563
                                         Michael Jackson got treated like a nigga.
Jun 20th 2015
567
                                              Some great points, but this is what you are not going to do:
Jun 21st 2015
570
                               Also, once you get into 'living as a black man' you are veering
Jun 20th 2015
549
500+ posts on a fictitious group of people and their
Jun 19th 2015
525
fictitious vs theoretical
Jun 19th 2015
526
theoretical vs. actual
Jun 19th 2015
527
      today's actual was yesterday's theoretical
Jun 19th 2015
530
           and yesterday's actual is today's okayplayer
Jun 19th 2015
531
           No.
Jun 19th 2015
532
           There have been... On TV even, but we collectively said
Jun 20th 2015
538
                Its crazy how dismissive they are on this subject
Jun 20th 2015
539
                because your phobias are peeping
Jun 20th 2015
540
                     smh, I'm not going to talk about Charelston in this thread.
Jun 20th 2015
545
                          the deflection exercises are astounding. Lot of mad & wrong posturing.
Jun 20th 2015
547
                               I would expect you to intereptet things that way.
Jun 20th 2015
552
                                    thanks for that awesome insight, Mike. Keep hiding behind an alias.
Jun 20th 2015
553
                                         Reply #555
Jun 20th 2015
556
                I'm sure you think so.
Jun 20th 2015
544
           today's theoretical is not yesterday's or today's actual.
Jun 19th 2015
536
Why are there +500 posts?
Jun 20th 2015
550
      actually
Jun 20th 2015
560
i've been turning Japanese since I was 11.
Jun 19th 2015
537
my blacker than black dinka brethren put ash on their bodies
Jun 20th 2015
542
forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement
Jun 20th 2015
543
      RE: forget the reasons for the need for a black is beautiful movement
Jun 20th 2015
548
      why object now?
Jun 20th 2015
559
      Alright, so can you please propose alternative explanations for
Jun 20th 2015
558
           blah blah, white supremacy, blah blah making their appearance ideal
Jun 20th 2015
564
           Lol I specifically asked for alternative explanations NOT
Jun 21st 2015
571
           Find one who actually LIVED as a white person and you might have a point...
Jun 21st 2015
573
right? these females claim they were turning male since they were kids
Jun 20th 2015
551
Race is not a subjective experience.
Jun 20th 2015
555
that's cute.
Jun 20th 2015
565
      Evidence would prove otherwise.
Jun 20th 2015
568
video related
Jun 20th 2015
557
after this week I didn't wanna be Black no more and now I see my way out...
Jun 21st 2015
572
      These people know exactly how you feel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe4AZRk...
Jun 21st 2015
577
lmao.
Jun 20th 2015
561
It's been a useful thread for me.
Jun 21st 2015
569
Who are those?
Jun 21st 2015
574
Those japanese who think they are black
Jun 21st 2015
578
race is only 200 years old and is a result of cultural insecurity
Apr 14th 2019
580
One is backed by fake hebrews
Apr 14th 2019
581
They aren't ready
Apr 14th 2019
584
My ninja, aintchu eva heard of Babysteps?
Apr 15th 2019
588
One is real, has been occurring in virtually every culture and the other
Apr 14th 2019
582
That approach we wouldn't acknowledge race which is only a few
Apr 14th 2019
586
      Are you TRYING to be dumb at this point?
Apr 14th 2019
587
      The best argument I've seen, which someone made above, is that
Apr 15th 2019
590
when the police pull me over can I identify as white?
Apr 15th 2019
589

akon
Charter member
26981 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:26 PM

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1. "wait, transrace is a thing now?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64881 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:28 PM

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2. "the concept has been here for quite some time."
In response to Reply # 1


          


-->

  

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akon
Charter member
26981 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:55 PM

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10. "are we talking passing? or one drop?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

and what does it mean to be white and feel that they are in the wrong skin
do they mean they feel they are maasai? or korowai?
is it skin is it culture?

is it biracial and choosing what side you fall on?

is it the priviledge of embracing something as an outsider looking in?



.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64881 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:58 PM

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14. "Just as with gender identity, there isn't one answer."
In response to Reply # 10


          

It's within the realm of sovereign individuality and what may
be true for one person, isn't for another.

I don't think you can look at two transgendered people and ask
them these types of questions in order to ascertain a consensus
on what it means to be in a woman's body but to feel like you are a man, per se.

Alike, I would imagine people who identify as "trans-racial" all have different
experiences distinguishable from one another that brings them to a place
where they reject normative racial identity.


-->

  

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akon
Charter member
26981 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 01:50 PM

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41. "and im not looking for one answer"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

i hope its quite clear that i dont understand this concept
outside of the story of this white woman
and even in that story i havent seen her explain what it means to be black
(except i guess being a (supposed) target of racial crimes. that's not a black identity. thats a consequence of)
so when someone says they feel that they are in the wrong race
and e.g if embracing black, are they saying they feel they are geechee?
creole?
or are they assuming a black american identity is just skin colour?
or a maasai just likes to wear red in the savannah?

i dont understand what sovereign individuality means.
perhaps you can give some examples tranrace people describing what their dysmorphia is.

and the reason i am not equating it to the transsexual identity is because i think i understand what that means
for some its the physical, for others its the physical and societal
for others it may just be the societal (definition of gender)

>where they reject normative racial identity.

which is?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
20180 posts
Sun Apr-14-19 05:40 PM

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585. "White folks & Asians been trans-racial since the birth of hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Pretty sure VEX can attest to this just like most of his fellow NYC hipsters.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
20857 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:33 PM

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3. "I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And I still don't have it completely worked out. But I race is about ancestry. It's about history. There isn't really room for fluidity in ancestry.


--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64881 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:38 PM

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4. "RE: I've been trying to grapple with this for a while now"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>And I still don't have it completely worked out. But I race
>is about ancestry. It's about history. There isn't really room
>for fluidity in ancestry.

Why not? Is it not the case the overwhelming majority of us are comprised of a plethora of ancestral lineages dating back to our very first, original humanoid ancestors? Isn't that - as a matter of DNA composition - evidence of an ethnic fluidity within our DNA?

I would argue there's more empirical evidence to support a transracial theory than a transgender theory - although I consider transgendered to be absolutely legitimate because it is my belief that regardless of what sex you are born as (male/female) - you are comprised of both masculine and feminine principles - but this is much more difficult to empirically demonstrate than that of a simple DNA tests which proves the "racial"/ethnic fluidity of a human.


-->

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
20857 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:47 PM

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7. "but see then you're making race about genetics."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

and that's kinda what I'm arguing against.

It's about history. Who are my people. Where do they come from. What's their history.

Because since we know that there are more genetic differences within races than between them, once you bring that kind of science into it, it falls apart.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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Vex_id
Charter member
64881 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:52 PM

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8. "so race is more about history than one's actual ethnic makeup?"
In response to Reply # 7


          



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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:57 PM

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12. "I wonder....."
In response to Reply # 8
Fri Jun-12-15 01:01 PM by denny

          

is part of the problem the distinction between race and culture? I mean....what does it mean to say 'I feel like a black man'. Isn't that a way of saying "I identify with black culture". It doesn't mean 'I think I have black skin"

I guess it doesn't provide the distinction you're looking for though. A transmale does not say 'I think I have a vagina'. They say "I identify with the gender roles that have been assigned to people with vaginas".

I don't know. I can't make the distinction. I tried to tackle it from a couple angles and have to admit....kept coming up blank.

I imagine that the lbgt community has language that differentiates between gender and race identities. I'd like to hear it too.

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
20857 posts
Fri Jun-12-15 12:58 PM

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13. "What is an "actual ethnic make up" if not an expression of history?"
In response to Reply # 8
Fri Jun-12-15 01:03 PM by Hitokiri

  

          

Maybe another way to put this is that two white people can have a baby. That baby can be male/boy, female/girl, can be intersex, can be somewhere in between. And it's perhaps reasonable to believe that somewhere along the line, something didn't quite line up the way that person feels they should.

But

Two white people cannot make a black baby. They cannot because their parents were not black, who can't because their parents were not black. Etc.

Like I said, I'm still grappling with this and it's articulation. But I think what I'm getting at is perhaps that gender identity is intrinsic or that it comes solely from within a person. There is a piece of racial identity that is instrinsic and comes from within, but a whole lot more of it is historical "baggage" so to speak. Race is expression of those two things and therefore isn't as fluid.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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Vex_id
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22. "Certainly, history is integral to identity."
In response to Reply # 13
Fri Jun-12-15 01:08 PM by Vex_id

          

>Maybe another way to put this is that two white people can
>have a baby. That baby can be male/boy, female/girl, can be
>intersex, can be somewhere in between. And it's perhaps
>reasonable to believe that somewhere along the line, something
>didn't quite line up the way that person feels they should.
>
>But
>
>Two white people cannot make a black baby. They cannot because
>their parents were not black, who can't because their parents
>were not black. Etc.

I'm not sure I quite follow where you're going with this. If we're saying that
a person's claim to being "transracial" is invalid because both parents are considered to be of one "race", does that mean that a gay persons's claim to being gay is invalid if their parents
are both heterosexual?

The idea of 'transracial' challenges the black/white radicalization dynamic at its root,
so it would reject those as grossly simplistic and insufficient in order to accurately portray one's own composition. In other words, to say that one's parents are simply 'black' or 'white' is insufficient as it doesn't account for the myriad of lineages that likely are found within that person's DNA that do not fit into square boxes of 'black' and 'white'.



-->

  

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Hitokiri
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28. "No, because sexuality doesn't function the way race does."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

To straight people can have a gay baby. Two gay people can have a straight baby. We know these things to be true.

But again, because race is historical, two black people cannot make an Asian baby.

and to get to the second part. We live in a white supremacist society in which ones race has meaning, history, a lived experience, and material realities. I don't think transracial challenges the black/white "radicalization dynamic" in any way in that it's not challenging the white supremacist power structure of most of the world. So if one is "trans racial" and saying "I feel black" what is it that you're really saying that you feel? Again, I think you're putting race far too much into DNA and genetics and leaving out the history, which I would argue is the more important piece of it.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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29. "So...."
In response to Reply # 28
Fri Jun-12-15 01:22 PM by denny

          

The distinction is that race is empirical and quantifiable. Whereas gender is not.

I'm thinking that's the answer....not sure what it's gonna mean for the 'race is a social construct' crowd.

  

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Hitokiri
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34. "I'm a part of the race is a social construct crowd."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

But most of us (to my knowledge) also agree that while race is a social construct, there are material benefits/consequences for ones race. We have made those real.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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37. "hmmmm"
In response to Reply # 34
Fri Jun-12-15 01:35 PM by denny

          

If two black people can't have an asian baby....it seems on first glance that race can't be a social construct.

  

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Atillah Moor
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284. "Actually two black people can have an asian baby "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Black people as a whole (meaning globally) have all the traits to create a child that could be classified as Asian.

In theory two white people could as well. Because Asian is not a race. It is a collection of physical traits which have some degree of variance i.e. skin color, hair texture, etc.

This is yet another example of how race is really just a term/practice/system meant to divide people.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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40thStreetBlack
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512. "Actually no they can't."
In response to Reply # 284


  

          

>In theory two white people could as well.

attillah, i agree with you... in theory. in theory, communism works. in theory.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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MiracleRic
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40. "This still minimizes male privilege and patriarchy "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>But most of us (to my knowledge) also agree that while race
>is a social construct, there are material
>benefits/consequences for ones race. We have made those real.

But u have articulated a key distinction.
Race though man-made does have a dependent relationship on lineage. But then what about mixed kids? They may or may not experience the historical context of their given lineage often based on self-identification and physical appearance. Physical appearance also has a close relationship with race which makes it murky again.

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Hitokiri
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44. "Yep. You're right on all counts here."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

I can't add anything more, or refute any of what you just said.

Race is messy.

I am minimalizing patriarchy.

I think I would need to consult a feminist woc to help me flesh this all out more.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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MiracleRic
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23. "ok, this is a good articulation"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

the only oversight is that there is in historical baggage in regards to gender as well

patriarchy

but you make a good point

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Hitokiri
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31. "true. that's a part of it that i still haven't quite be able to reconcil..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

i'm working on it though.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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Mongo
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5. "Because race is an expression of privilege..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...in that I can culturally appropriate from races from further down the privilege pyramid, but they can't appropriate back upward, whereas transgender is a lateral transition that can go either way.

The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly different than those of gender, despite overlap and similarities.

  

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Vex_id
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6. "Male privilege doesn't exist in a top-down patriarchal structure?"
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Jun-12-15 12:52 PM by Vex_id

          

>The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly
>different than those of gender, despite overlap and
>similarities.

For sure - they aren't exactly the same by any stretch. But there is a power dynamic of privilege embedded in both gender and race.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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19. "A white woman is still more privileged that a blk man"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>>The norms and mores surrounding race are also profoundly
>>different than those of gender, despite overlap and
>>similarities.
>
>For sure - they aren't exactly the same by any stretch. But
>there is a power dynamic of privilege embedded in both gender
>and race.
>
>
>-->

  

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kayru99
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32. "^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 19


          

  

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Vex_id
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59. "not entirely true."
In response to Reply # 19


          

A black man has generally held privileged positions of power before white women. See: Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Presidents, powerful positions within the papacy/church, CEOs etc..)

But ok - let's say that's conceded, so what?

That doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of trans-racial identity.

-->

  

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GirlChild
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65. "Trans-racial is just as non exist an as post black"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

And I'm going to disagree that blk men are more privileged than white women. Blk men have been lynched so looking, being near and sometimes innocently murdered bc of how much white men value white women more than blk men.

  

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Vex_id
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72. "depends on what somebody means by "trans-racial""
In response to Reply # 65
Fri Jun-12-15 04:29 PM by Vex_id

          

if by "trans-racial" they mean "racism is over" - then yea, that's just an absurd concept and ceases to have any meaning.

if by "trans-racial" - they mean moving beyond conventional models of race classification in an attempt provide more robust and expansive models of self-identification - then that has validity (scientifically, socially, and culturally).

>And I'm going to disagree that blk men are more privileged
>than white women. Blk men have been lynched so looking, being
>near and sometimes innocently murdered bc of how much white
>men value white women more than blk men.

For sure - but you said "privileged." Privilege tends to refer to power/opportunity/access to positions of power/prestige - and black men have attained positions of power and risen on the ladder of hierarchal power within authoritative positions before white women in many instances in this country. But if we're talking about who is profiled and subjected to racism and prejudice? Obviously it's not even a debate.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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78. "Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

Post racial is more about race not being a determining factor but still acknowledging that race exists.

I personally don't believe in it as it's pretty self referential. The problem with this woman is that she took generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting. And at the end of the day she can run back to her whiteness and be ok. Same with anyone who's white that grew up around mostly blk folks. They might culturally identify as blk but they aren't ethnically and will not be treated as such in society.

It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race when you're in a position of privilege and you are the majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can talk about fluidity.

  

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Vex_id
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80. "RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 78
Fri Jun-12-15 04:45 PM by Vex_id

          

>The problem with this woman is that she took
>generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that
>was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting.

What was her definition?

>And at the end of the day she can run back to her whiteness
>and be ok. Same with anyone who's white that grew up around
>mostly blk folks. They might culturally identify as blk but
>they aren't ethnically and will not be treated as such in
>society.

well first of all, what does "ethnically black" even mean? Black
is not an ethnicity. Also, Rachel was considered to be racially black - because in America - we consider a wide range of hues/skin tones/features to be within the parameters of "black". Further, If we're saying that it's even possible to culturally identify with being 'black' then that's an admission that it's a concept amenable to fluidity.

As for her "running back to her whiteness" - what experience do you have with being perceived as 'white', identifying w/ something else - and then 'running back to whiteness'? How do you know what that's like such that you are qualified to speak on that? And you say that they "will not be treated as black in society." Well, wasn't Rachel Dolezal treated as "black" until this morning?

>It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race
>when you're in a position of privilege and you are the
>majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can
>talk about fluidity.

Interestingly - this argument is never used in a trans-gender analysis. Meaning, I don't hear you (or others in this thread) saying things like: "it's easy to say we are being conventional about gender when you're in a position of privilege. When women are afforded equal rights in society then we will talk about gender fluidity."

Yet, women still aren't treated as equal and are subjected to patriarchal hierarchy and conventionalism, but that doesn't stop us from exercising a fluidity analysis as it pertains to gender.


-->

  

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GirlChild
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137. "RE: Post racial doesn't mean racism is over"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

>>The problem with this woman is that she took
>>generalizations of what it means to be a blk women and that
>>was stupid and short sighted. Her definition is so limiting.
>
>What was her definition?

um, really? look at her. look at how she chose to represent herself, braids, headwrap, going "natural."

>
>well first of all, what does "ethnically black" even mean?
>Black
>is not an ethnicity. Also, Rachel was considered to be
>racially black - because in America - we consider a wide range
>of hues/skin tones/features to be within the parameters of
>"black". Further, If we're saying that it's even possible to
>culturally identify with being 'black' then that's an
>admission that it's a concept amenable to fluidity.

Black IS an ethnicity, i don't know why you would think it wasn't. we have a shared experience that is unique to us. rachel was considered to be racially black because that's how she presented herself and that's what she told people she was. she darkened her skin, put in braids, headwraps, all physical dressings that are associated with (but not representative of all) blk women.you are confusing culture with ethnicity, they are two different things. my husband is culturally american (and blk american) but he is ethnically blk w/roots from the south. white folks are always trying to define what black is to black people.
>
>As for her "running back to her whiteness" - what experience
>do you have with being perceived as 'white', identifying w/
>something else - and then 'running back to whiteness'? How do
>you know what that's like such that you are qualified to speak
>on that? And you say that they "will not be treated as black
>in society." Well, wasn't Rachel Dolezal treated as "black"
>until this morning?
>
please don't act obtuse about this. you are seriously going to tell me that if she took off the black face she wouldn't be treated like a white woman? she was treated as blk BECAUSE SHE PRESENTED HERSELF THAT WAY. she's a pathological liar. she lied about her brother being her son. she made all kinds of crazy tweets making statements about being a blk woman and being discriminated against. that chick has mental health issues.

and yes, i AM qualified to speak on this as i know what it is to be a black woman. what seems to be ignored is that she is making a mockery of blk women.

>>It's easy to say that we are conventional to ideas of race
>>when you're in a position of privilege and you are the
>>majority. When we are given equal citizenship perhaps we can
>>talk about fluidity.
>"
>
>Yet, women still aren't treated as equal and are subjected to
>patriarchal hierarchy and conventionalism, but that doesn't
>stop us from exercising a fluidity analysis as it pertains to
>gender.
>
>
transgender and transracial can no way be compared, and is in fact and insult to transgender people. to use my husband's example, if i were raised deserted island, i'd 1.still be a woman and 2. wouldn't be blk. that categorization is only true when i'm in a society of people that have chosen to define me that way because they see white as the default, when it can't be.

and we are going to have to agree to disagree because i still think white women are still have more privilege and power than blk men.

  

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Vex_id
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154. "we will have to agree to disagree on a number of issues"
In response to Reply # 137


          

which is fine...

but note: nobody is trying to tell people how they should feel or self-categorize, except perhaps a number of people in this post telling this woman Rachel how she should feel and how she should self-identity.

The irony is that those same people stand in defense of transgendered people to have the open, creative space to self-identity and feel the way they feel, but when it comes to race - it's an entirely different philosophical process.

It's an interesting discussion - and perhaps not yet ripe enough to be made sense of on a larger, societal scale.

-->

  

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GirlChild
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178. "Race and gender are two separate things. "
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

>which is fine...
>
>but note: nobody is trying to tell people how they should
>feel or self-categorize, except perhaps a number of people in
>this post telling this woman Rachel how she should feel and
>how she should self-identity.
>
>The irony is that those same people stand in defense of
>transgendered people to have the open, creative space to
>self-identity and feel the way they feel, but when it comes to
>race - it's an entirely different philosophical process.
>
>It's an interesting discussion - and perhaps not yet ripe
>enough to be made sense of on a larger, societal scale.
>
>-->

  

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Vex_id
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180. "for sure, but what distinguishes them from each other as "trans" theorie..."
In response to Reply # 178


          

guess we're back to square one.

-->

  

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MiracleRic
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9. "male privilege is fake now?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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spades
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11. "Well stated."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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denny
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16. "Not really."
In response to Reply # 11


          

A feminist could just as easily say (and have done so) that a man who identifies as a woman can "appropriate from further down the privilege pyramid, but they can't appropriate back upward".

  

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spades
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18. "and they'd be wrong, but we have evidence of the contrary."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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MiracleRic
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235. "what evidence is this?"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Binlahab
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15. "i reject in totality that Black ppl are "below" anybody"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

if you take from us, and we take from you...we still taking from you.

that right there...IS racism


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

  

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BigJazz
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38. "what are we able to take from them? "
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

  

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spades
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17. "."
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Jun-12-15 01:02 PM by spades

  

          

.

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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Hitokiri
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33. "Iin a lot of ways, "transracial" is an extreme expression of white privi..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

because let a nigerian come over here, Didier Drogba his hair and dye it blonde and start telling people he's white.

People from all sides will quickly shoot him down in trying to reap the benefits of whiteness.

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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35. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 33


          

All the more reason to have distinct language to shoot it down.

  

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legsdiamond
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42. "this^^^"
In response to Reply # 33


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Big Kuntry
Member since May 09th 2010
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45. "PREACH"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

  

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Teknontheou
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47. "I mean, I guess. But what about all the B/black people who "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

*have* passed? They were able to pass because they looked enough like white people to be able to do it, more than anyone granting them anything. I guess you could argue that that's a form of privilege, but it's not, really. I have family who could pass for Asian, if they really wanted to. Before the mid-20th century it was *not* a privilege to be Asian, though.

  

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StephBMore
Member since Sep 11th 2014
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278. "Most black ppl who have passed or do passed ARE part white..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

whatever that percentage is, they are part of white, so to claim one race and not the other isn't necessarily the same thing. And to that point, most ppl who passed were doing so to avoid hardships in life...this was prevalent during slave times and immediately
post-slavery. Currently very few people do this and those who do, do so to AVOID discrimination, not to use it as a platform to get more money.

  

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Vex_id
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62. "so you're invalidating the whole concept based on one scenario?"
In response to Reply # 33


          


-->

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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73. "You say that in contrast to how a transgendered woman is treated?"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>because let a nigerian come over here, Didier Drogba his hair
>and dye it blonde and start telling people he's white.
>
>People from all sides will quickly shoot him down in trying to
>reap the benefits of whiteness.

A 6'3" dude cuts off his johnson, gets boobs, starts wearing women clothes and tells people he is a woman won't people from MOST sides quickly shoot him in down in trying to reap the benefits of womanhood?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:31 PM

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124. "that same trans woman will also likely be taking hormone treatments"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

so they're going to develop a more female-aligned physiology, save for bottom surgery.

As of current, there's nothing science can do to change your ethnic/racial makeup at that deep of a level. Maybe one day.

  

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dafriquan
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142. "#actually"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          


>As of current, there's nothing science can do to change your
>ethnic/racial makeup at that deep of a level.

Give it some thought.

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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96. "High kicks! "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Airbreed
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254. "..aaaaaannnnd SEEN."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

.

  

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Wonderl33t
Member since Jul 11th 2002
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395. "or scene"
In response to Reply # 254


  

          


______________________________
http://i.imgur.com/81XSukd.jpg <-- Happy trails

  

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Case_One
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"He's RIGHT!"


  

          


.
.
.
"Romans 10 : 9 says, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved."

  

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Case_One
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39. "He's RIGHT!"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          


.
.
.
"Romans 10 : 9 says, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved."

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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20. "i get confused for conservative on this topic but i'm not"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i think if we are going to fight for identity as individually-defined in personal and emotional ways...it defeats the (already questionable) purpose of those divisions in the first place

one random small example...transgender MtF woman MMA fighter beat the living brakes off a genetic female woman and it was controversial as hell

that division has purpose and use...to make that division so malleable is problematic imho not bc i care that his genetic male wants to live life as a woman without having to actually face the female life choices that are closely tied to womanhood to some extent

i think both are problematic bc nobody seems capable of letting the divisions go...

i'm ok with the further deterioration (shit, im all for it) of gender roles...and possibly race related cultural traits as well but I think there are societal impacts that should be thought out with less #TEAMConservative and #TEAMProgressive and more balance, pragmatic, and a big-picture rather than an individualist and emotional ideas about how identity should be treated and it's purpose in our society in general

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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24. "Well there's this:"
In response to Reply # 20


          

It's entirely possible that our approach to sexual identity creates scenarios that are ripe for opportunism. (ie the UFC thing) More clearly, just because someone manipulated gender identity to their benefit does not mean that society will not be better off, as a whole, by seeing gender identity as fluid. I guess what I'm saying....a few particular situations and examples should not guide our worldview.

And sports, by their nature, are NEVER 'equal' anyways. Our genes and DNA pre-determine a large majority of it even when gender advantages are neutralized.

  

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Vex_id
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27. "That seems to be the crux of those who reject transgendered people:"
In response to Reply # 20


          


>i think both are problematic bc nobody seems capable of
>letting the divisions go...

The divisions make sense of the world for some people - and in their minds - they think that being 'male' loses meaning when a woman can simply choose to become male.

But is that person correct? I'd say no, they are trying to project their own experience of what it means to be 'male' as what the consensus opinion should be on what's male/masculine < always a recipe for disaster because of how wholly distinctive and individualistic each of us are.

>i'm ok with the further deterioration (shit, im all for it) of
>gender roles...and possibly race related cultural traits as
>well but I think there are societal impacts that should be
>thought out with less #TEAMConservative and #TEAMProgressive
>and more balance, pragmatic, and a big-picture rather than an
>individualist and emotional ideas about how identity should be
>treated and it's purpose in our society in general

Agreed - and it wasn't the best way to phrase the debate (as being conservatism versus progressivism) as that's a duality polarization in itself. However, I do find it interesting when progressives apply wholly different philosophical processes when embracing transgendered rights on one-hand, and flatly rejecting transracial theory on the other.

-->

  

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Frobert
Member since Nov 03rd 2003
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21. "A lot of these ambiguities spring up because..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 01:14 PM by Frobert

  

          

..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
We use race as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
for when we don't. See also the black vs Black dustups here.
That said, if someone wants to identify as black, and they
can get everybody else to view them as black (because
arguably the distinguishing feature of being black in this
country is that everybody else sees you as black), then
it's fine with me. It's not like race is some sacred,
super-scientific designation.

I think in this recent case though, the issue is that
non-crazy people don't tend to do this sort of stuff.

  

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Vex_id
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25. "Yes, I think this is a great point."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>We use race is as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
>for when we don't. See also the black vs Black dustups here.
>That said, if someone wants to identify as black, and they
>can get everybody else to view them as black (because
>arguably the distinguishing feature of being black in this
>country is that everybody else sees you as black), then
>it's fine with me. It's not like race is some sacred,
>super-scientific designation.

Right - in fact, how we presently apply "race" via societal census
is decisively unscientific.

>I think in this recent case though, the issue is that
>non-crazy people don't tend to do this sort of stuff.

lol


-->

  

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Hitokiri
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36. "good post."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

nm

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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akon
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43. "the black/Black dustups actually make sense in this scenario"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
that is a consequence and result of having lived in a different society
from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand what black as an identity means
(shit, im dinka. there's tribe. that is an embrace of a culture and lineage that the B, who no longer has that
says, well we got a culture and lineage too that we want to distinguish from others
i think that's valid. its not an individualistic claim. its a communal claim.
much like tribe is communal.

>..the concept of race doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>We use race as a proxy for ancestry/ethnicity...except
>for when we don't.

exactly. in this country it is a proxy for a shared identity - much like we use tribe as a proxy for a shared identity
even when its skin deep. but even within that there are a multitude of sub-communities
black-geechee, black creole or whatever else
and whatever the white equivalent is
so it even ends up not being necessarily skin deep

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Frobert
Member since Nov 03rd 2003
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104. "I wonder what would happen if the idea of race was erased..."
In response to Reply # 43
Fri Jun-12-15 07:13 PM by Frobert

  

          

...and instead everybody in this country saw each other in
terms of specific ethnic tribes.

Would black tribes and Black tribes still fuck with each other?
Would white tribes and White tribes still fuck with each other?
Would tribalism be as bad as racism?
Or would history repeat itself because for this country race is inevitable?

  

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Vex_id
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106. "right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'"
In response to Reply # 43
Fri Jun-12-15 07:16 PM by Vex_id

          

>
>with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
>that is a consequence and result of having lived in a
>different society
>from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand what
>black as an identity means

black in that regard is more of a cultural identifier than a racial one - which is why people like Rachel Dolezal claim association with that cultural identity - whether people deem it legitimate or not. Still, she likely has more familiarity with that identity than a continental african - whom by your own words, "actually doesn't understand what black as an identity means."

-->

  

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40thStreetBlack
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263. "RE: right, which is why there is room for fluidity re: 'black identity'"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

>>
>>with the capital B embracing a cultural and social identity
>>that is a consequence and result of having lived in a
>>different society
>>from us continental blacks, who actually dont understand
>what
>>black as an identity means
>
>black in that regard is more of a cultural identifier than a
>racial one - which is why people like Rachel Dolezal claim
>association with that cultural identity - whether people deem
>it legitimate or not.

it is both a cultural identifier and a racial one. Dolezal claimed associatiton with both.


Still, she likely has more familiarity
>with that identity than a continental african - whom by your
>own words, "actually doesn't understand what black as an
>identity means."

in an academic sense perhaps. but she claimed it as a racial identity as well, which she does not, and can not, have more familiarity with.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Jun-12-15 02:18 PM

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48. "And this is exactly the struggle transgender people are fighting "
In response to Reply # 21
Fri Jun-12-15 02:20 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

  

          

>That said, if someone wants to identify as A WOMAN, and they
>can get everybody else to view them as A WOMAN (because
>arguably the distinguishing feature of being A WOMAN in this
>country is that everybody else sees you as A WOMAN), then
>it's fine with me. It's not like GENDER is some sacred,
>super-scientific designation.

They want to be identified as a woman or man just like a transracial person (this is going to be a thing by the end of the day lol) wants to be identified as black, white, whatever.

A major fight is over how they are recognized

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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100. "this is pretty much what i came in to post"
In response to Reply # 21


          

race is an artificial and unscientific construct. gender is not.

end of story.

d

  

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MiracleRic
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236. "nah...sloppy science is used for both"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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csuave03
Member since May 20th 2007
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238. "it could be argued that gender is but sex isn't"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

I guess that's why this is such a slippery slope argument

If someone says that they are missing an x chromosome that sounds very similar to someone saying that they are missing a certain amount of melanin

Free love y'all

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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26. "The people comparing these two are either white or transphobic."
In response to Reply # 0


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Mafamaticks
Member since Jan 12th 2004
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Fri Jun-12-15 01:22 PM

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30. "One is culture and the other is biological"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

besides skin color, there aren't any identifying traits that make someone black.

Considering humans all start off as female in the womb, there are legitimate arguments about the biological aspects of transgender folks.

Transrace people aren't born that way and won't be.

Transrace is where I turn into a bigot.

If I have to identify which Ron I'm talking about at work, I'm not going to call Ron "transracial Ron." No nigga it's white Ron, not the black Ron.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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76. "I am pretty sure you can't distinguish fetuses by race. "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>besides skin color, there aren't any identifying traits that
>make someone black.
>
>Considering humans all start off as female in the womb, there
>are legitimate arguments about the biological aspects of
>transgender folks.

Like sex, I am pretty sure all fetuses are indinstinguishably by race early in their development and develop racial characteristics later in development.

>
>Transrace people aren't born that way and won't be.
>
>Transrace is where I turn into a bigot.
>
>If I have to identify which Ron I'm talking about at work, I'm
>not going to call Ron "transracial Ron." No nigga it's white
>Ron, not the black Ron.

I am going to say usetabe white Ron.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Big Kuntry
Member since May 09th 2010
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46. "What would be gender dysphoria for transrace?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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akon
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49. "the japanese b-stylers"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

are we calling this transrace? as an example
because this to me is imitation (and perhaps the best form of flattery)
but in no way shape or form would i consider this some sort of transracial identity
for numerous reasons, one being that its based on a conception of what 'african american' is, that is divorced from the
every day reality of what being black in america is/may be

http://www.vice.com/read/b-style-japan-desir-van-den-berg-photos

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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50. "Apparently they have theme parks"
In response to Reply # 49


          

designed to look like American ghettos.

I remember there was a white hip hop group called 'Young Black Teenagers'. When asked in an interview about their name....they responded 'Being black is a state of mind'.

  

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akon
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51. "sad face"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

'Being black is a state of mind'.

yet another way to minimize the black experience

aka levels of priviledge

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Teknontheou
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52. "Jamal, talk white! (c) Kid in House Party 2"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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54. "oh shit"
In response to Reply # 52
Fri Jun-12-15 02:56 PM by denny

          

I din't know that was actually him. He's the same guy that said 'Being black is a state of mind' in the interveiw I saw.

  

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spades
Member since Mar 22nd 2006
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53. "That girl, Hina, tho.....?"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

********************************
http://www.last.fm/user/Nspades

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt
www.wickedradionetwork.com

"The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" - Paulo Coehlo

  

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akon
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55. "sans or with tan?"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Sun Jun-14-15 08:37 AM

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195. "I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures"
In response to Reply # 49
Sun Jun-14-15 08:39 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

The Japanese do not have white supremacy, slavery, or Jim Crow in their history. Anything they accept as black will be viewed from a completely different angle and be completely devoid of the things that charge the issue here in the U.S.

Also darkening skin or teeth has been a thing in their culture for many years and in some cases centuries.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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40thStreetBlack
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227. "RE: I would place this in a seperate category based on cultures"
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

>The Japanese do not have white supremacy, slavery, or Jim
>Crow in their history. Anything they accept as black will be
>viewed from a completely different angle and be completely
>devoid of the things that charge the issue here in the U.S.

it won't be completely devoid of those things, it will just be seen through the lens of what they get from portrayals in media//pop culture. which is generally not a good portrayal.

>Also darkening skin or teeth has been a thing in their culture
>for many years and in some cases centuries.

darkening their skin? japanese women have been lightening/avoiding the darkening of their skin for centuries.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
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Fri Jun-12-15 03:01 PM

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56. "alright, IF...IF we were to take this goofy ass argument for real..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

then i bet the farm that no one would be able to successfully go/claim/become white

and no

im not pointing out whiteness on some "the whitemans ice is colder" shit

im talking about it purely from a social benefits standpoint

they would not give that shit up. it would never be granted.

no model minority asian would be allowed in. ever.


***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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denny
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57. "True."
In response to Reply # 56
Fri Jun-12-15 03:08 PM by denny

          

But a society might choose to not acknowledge a trans person's identity as well. The whole point is that we're trying to encourage society to do so. So the counter argument would be 'Then we need to convince society to see these transrace black/asian people as white out of respect for their identity' (just like we need to convince society to see Caitlyn Jenner as a woman).

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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58. "Find someone 50 years ago...."
In response to Reply # 56
Fri Jun-12-15 03:16 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

  

          

Tell them that it will be commonplace and widely accepted to refer to a man as 'she'.
We don't know what kind of world we will be living in in the future.

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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double negative
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60. "yes but, the act of gender bending has been around forever. "
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

for example


i mean....shit, im trying to see the future with todays eyes and i cant see it

i wont be an angry denier because if this picks up steam then i will have to go with it

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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denny
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61. "What if this was our out?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 03:22 PM by denny

          

There's a cognitive dissonance here. We want people to be able to define themselves.....but we don't want someone like Chet Haze taking advantage of our framework by claiming victim status for an identity that he does not (by our perception) 'truly' identify with.

So why don't we sacrifice the rule that we HAVE to take people at their word?

If a trans person stands to gain something tangible (ie they are a 'born male' who wants to compete in ladies basketball) then it's OK if we question their motives? If a white person wants to identify that they're black because they romanticize a perceived victim-status in doing so....then it's OK if we question them.

Perhaps the problem is that we didn't leave room to call people out when we think they are manipulating our framework. I can't see any tangible reason why Caitlyn Jenner would proclaim a new identity other than that she genuinely feels that way. So I have no reason to question her sincerity. But that doesn't have to be the case. We should feel free to call bullshit when we see it.

  

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Vex_id
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63. "sure, but it's very arbitrary as to when people legitimize identity. "
In response to Reply # 61


          

the reason I made this post is because I think it's interesting when people are accepting of one's identity in one instance, but wholly judgmental in another instance.

This is a fascinating topic because it challenges people's philosophical foundations on social identity.


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Vex_id
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64. "sidenote: notice how we champion self-identity in one instance..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 03:48 PM by Vex_id

          

meaning - many tend to recognize the autonomy and sovereignty of an individual when it comes to expressing their gender/sex fluidity. If they want to identity as bi/gay/trans - we tend to say "it is their right to identify as they choose and identify with whatever resonates w/ them most" < and this is the appropriate, tolerant course of action.

But when it comes to race - it's far more sticky to most. We (we being general society) don't necessarily seem to want to afford that same autonomy and creative space to self-identity - because of a lot of strong personal beliefs and rigid definitions on what "race" means and how it functions in society.

Interestingly, we still hold on to and deem as legitimate the concept of "race" as it was constructed hundreds of years ago. We have challenged conventional norms of "beauty" - and now "gender" - but when it comes to "race" - we are still very rigid and conventional - and that likely has to do with it being arguably the most polarizing facet of american society.

But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?

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Bluebear
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66. "because it's largely unnecessary"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

While folks may get the side eye for claiming to be a different race than they appear to be, they're often free to adopt or embrace almost all of the cultural aspects of the race without much blowback. I think gender is different in that there are greater reprcussions for attempting to adopt gender non-conforming attributes.

  

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Vex_id
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68. "RE: because it's largely unnecessary"
In response to Reply # 66


          

>While folks may get the side eye for claiming to be a
>different race than they appear to be, they're often free to
>adopt or embrace almost all of the cultural aspects of the
>race without much blowback.

Sure - and a transgendered person (born male) who chooses to identify as "female" can
embrace all the cultural aspects of femininity and gender without much blowback, also.

So what?

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denny
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70. "Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 64


          


>But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate
>and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever
>an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's
>impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?

Answer: it's acceptable when we have reason to believe that they are lying.

So tolerating and accepting a person's right to self-identity does not have to be a hard and fast principle. There can be room for us to acknowledge when an individual attempts to manipulate the framework. Might that lead us into sometimes denying an identity to someone who genuinely deserves it? Perhaps. But there's no policy we can follow that isn't gonna be messy.

I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine in not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and respect. People lie sometimes.

  

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Vex_id
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71. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 70


          

>
>>But at the end of the day - if the principle is to tolerate
>>and accept a person's right to self-identify, how is it ever
>>an acceptable course of action to say "no, that's
>>impermissible, we will decide for you who you are" ?
>
>Answer: it's acceptable when we have reason to believe that
>they are lying.

that's messy. Who is the qualified arbiter equipped to determine if somebody is 'lying' about their gender/race self-identification?

>I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however
>they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a
>black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in
>identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine in
>not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and
>respect. People lie sometimes.

This is kinda an over-reach to make a point. When has Chet Haze ever
insisted that people refer to him as a black man?


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denny
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74. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 71


          

>
>that's messy. Who is the qualified arbiter equipped to
>determine if somebody is 'lying' about their gender/race
>self-identification

Just as their identity belongs to them....my perception belongs to me. So that makes me the arbiter. If I'm wrong...they still have their identity and I have my wrong perception. I perceive Caitlyn Jenner to be a woman but it needn't HAVE to be that way.




>>I'm not prepared to let everybody define themselves however
>>they want. If Chet Haze insists that I refer to him as a
>>black man....I'm not going to. I know this is a no-no in
>>identity politics discourse but I don't care. I feel fine
>in
>>not having to adhere to a strict principle of tolerance and
>>respect. People lie sometimes.
>
>This is kinda an over-reach to make a point. When has Chet
>Haze ever
>insisted that people refer to him as a black man?
>

Isn't that what we're talking about? A transrace person? Forget I mentioned Chet Haze then. A white dude who says he identifies as a black male.


  

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Vex_id
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75. "RE: Perhaps it's this simple"
In response to Reply # 74


          


>Just as their identity belongs to them....my perception
>belongs to me. So that makes me the arbiter. If I'm
>wrong...they still have their identity and I have my wrong
>perception. I perceive Caitlyn Jenner to be a woman but it
>needn't HAVE to be that way.

Sure - that's fine, as long as we're not saying that equal rights under the law is contingent upon the whims and subjectivity of a person's personal prejudices.

In other words - should Caitlyn Jenner be allowed to identify as a woman, under the law? Or should we hold some type of special court to adjudicate whether or not we will allow Caitlyn to be identified as "female" on her driver's license, based on whether we think she's lying or not?


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denny
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79. "Yah....I anticipated that."
In response to Reply # 75


          

And that is certainly problematic. I'm not sure how the law should work and it's relevant to things like status benefits and such.

  

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now or never
Member since Oct 27th 2004
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67. "you can feel like a woman. feeling black doesn't exist without societal ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

assuming that's the reason someone would want to identify as transracial
transgender people from what I understand (admittedly very little) identify as such because of their inner feelings of masculinity/femininity/attractions so on
but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race internally
what is that?
how does someone feel black without any societal context that identifies them as such?
if it's based on the things they identify with culturally (like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.
or if it is, i can't wrap my head around it.

-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Vex_id
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69. "why is that left up to you adjudicate and understand?"
In response to Reply # 67


          


>but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race
>internally
>what is that?
>how does someone feel black without any societal context that
>identifies them as such?

How does someone feel male/female without any societal context that identifies them as such?

It's not necessary that you understand how somebody might wake up and "feel like a woman" - most people accept that person's right to feel that way and afford them to creative space to self-identify.

Why is your comprehension necessary in order to validate somebody who feels like their census report "race" categorization isn't sufficient to identify them.

>if it's based on the things they identify with culturally
>(like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't
>require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
>so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.

I think what's confusing about this topic is that we still don't really have a strong sense of what "race" is - likely because it's a flimsy construct that is wholly limited, which is why "transracial" theory even developed in the first place.




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now or never
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81. "i'm not saying its up to me, i just want to understand how it works."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

if we're gonna make the transgender/transracial comparison
one i can wrap my head around (albeit a little bit)
because i can understand a person feeling femininity while existing in a body that we identify as male
or vice versa
however it's been described to me, it usually involves some iteration of feeling born in a body that they would like to alter

the other idea of being born in a race that isn't correct or wanting to change race i don't understand because i don't know what its based on
is it a feeling that the person should have been born a different race and that person spends their life knowing they should have been asian/white/black/italian whatever?
is there some inherent discomfort that plagues them that drives them to attempt to change their race?
is there such thing as changing your race (i.e. racial reconstructive surgery)?
i'm not trying to get anyone to prove or validate anything to me personally
i'm just trying to understand the parallel of transgender and transracial
if there is one

-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Vex_id
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113. "it's obviously something emerging as an entry to a larger discussion"
In response to Reply # 81
Fri Jun-12-15 08:07 PM by Vex_id

          

There was a time when people were similarly flabbergasted about the notion of transgender, and wondered how it worked, what it looked like, how they could ever make any kind of sense of it, etc...

>the other idea of being born in a race that isn't correct or
>wanting to change race i don't understand because i don't know
>what its based on
>is it a feeling that the person should have been born a
>different race and that person spends their life knowing they
>should have been asian/white/black/italian whatever?
>is there some inherent discomfort that plagues them that
>drives them to attempt to change their race?
>is there such thing as changing your race (i.e. racial
>reconstructive surgery)?
>i'm not trying to get anyone to prove or validate anything to
>me personally
>i'm just trying to understand the parallel of transgender and
>transracial
>if there is one

All valid questions - and a larger discussion should be had on this. Where we have traditionally encountered the concept of 'transrace' is with somebody like Tiger Woods, who chooses to identify with a certain percentage of his ethnic makeup moreso than other percentages. This is something that so called "interracial" people experience all of the time, and they often choose to identify with what's easiest and most accepted by general society.

But when they don't accept what's easiest and most accepted by general society, there is an immediate rush to judgment and an incredulous tone. However, what makes this discussion interesting is that we all (well, most of us) accept that race is an illusory construct, as such, it's a malleable concept that evolves as cultural norms do. The parallel is that we often refer to race as skin-tone as we do gender to sexual equipment/genitalia -- but just as that sexual equipment sometimes doesn't accurately reflect who the person feels like they are possessing that sexual equipment, a particular skin-tone (identified as 'race') may not accurately reflect who that particular person feels that they are. Why would people feel like this? Perhaps because the human lineage dates back thousands and thousands of years whereby our DNA is literally comprised of a myriad of ethnicities and "races" - such that the notion of identifying just as one becomes wholly limiting for some people.


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Buddy_Gilapagos
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77. "I think yall are wrong saying gender doesn't involve societal context "
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

That's been repeated throughout this thread. It's just not true.

Sexual attraction may not need societal context but transgender ism is not the same as homosexuality.

Expression of transgender absolutely involves societal context. The transgenderism of Brazil is expressed very different from the transgendered of San Francisco or Thailand.



>assuming that's the reason someone would want to identify as
>transracial
>transgender people from what I understand (admittedly very
>little) identify as such because of their inner feelings of
>masculinity/femininity/attractions so on
>but i don't think people wake up and say they feel their race
>internally
>what is that?
>how does someone feel black without any societal context that
>identifies them as such?
>if it's based on the things they identify with culturally
>(like music or clothes or taste in a partner), that doesn't
>require that a person's skin be a certain color to embrace it
>so i don't think the comparison is an appropriate one.
>or if it is, i can't wrap my head around it.
>
>-----
>No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
>American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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now or never
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83. "fair enough."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          



-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

  

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Jon
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95. "There's no way of ever knowing that what you're feeling is woman"
In response to Reply # 67


          

if your chromosomes made you a male.

  

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dEs
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140. "right. trans is something that can be apparent during childhood"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

it's independent of any external influences


many trans people express from a young age that they don't fit into gender norms


for example: (1:35 mark)

a trans woman describes how, as a young boy in first grade, she would express herself as a girl
http://1drv.ms/1QUhrJR


so called "trans race," which is really cultural affinity, is
entirely dependent on your surroundings. no white child is born
with something inside of them that makes them feel "Black"

_____

shann.email/inbox.pls.

  

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Goldmind
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82. "Who are these people who consider themselves transracial? "
In response to Reply # 0


          

I think some examples are in order.


  

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akon
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92. "I've asked"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

And still waiting for examples and how they define this
If it's black what does that mean exactly

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Goldmind
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122. "I think it's telling that they won't speak in specifics"
In response to Reply # 92


          

The argument here seems to be based purely on vague hypothetical scenarios and, as you may notice, is only being advanced by heterosexual men. It's like they are frantically looking for a "Gotcha!" moment to hold over LGBT folks' heads. I'm a let them keep looking lol.

  

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Vex_id
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129. "The reason there aren't specifics is because it's a new concept."
In response to Reply # 122


          

once upon a time there was no such thing as a transgendered person
walking around. People are using everyone from Tom Hanks' son, to this
NAACP woman, to Tiger Woods in this post to make varying points about
'transrace' - but it's a theoretical discussion - of course hypotheticals are
being discussed.

>The argument here seems to be based purely on vague
>hypothetical scenarios and, as you may notice, is only being
>advanced by heterosexual men. It's like they are frantically
>looking for a "Gotcha!" moment to hold over LGBT folks' heads.
>I'm a let them keep looking lol.

not sure how that 'gotcha!' moment would work for me as a heterosexual
male, because I have nothing to hold over LGBT folks' heads except
their constitutional, human, and universal rights.



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Goldmind
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250. "Our specific example is Rachel"
In response to Reply # 129
Mon Jun-15-15 11:04 AM by Goldmind

          

Although you're trying to isolate the discussion, we can't escape the fact that the only reason we're talking about transrace is because it's being wielded in defense of Rachel, whose story is being compared to that of transgender people. That comparison is most often an act of bigotry, meant to belittle the lives of real, breathing transgender men and women rather than to uplift transracial people, whom you admit only exist to you theoretically.

>once upon a time there was no such thing as a transgendered
>person
>walking around. People are using everyone from Tom Hanks'
>son, to this
>NAACP woman, to Tiger Woods in this post to make varying
>points about
>'transrace' - but it's a theoretical discussion - of course
>hypotheticals are
>being discussed.

But there have always been people who fit the characteristics of transgender people. Transracialism has been a recognized thing for a while, but not in the way that you are defining it. I think that when you look at the specific cases of people who adopt transracial identities, it becomes more evident the ways in which race and gender, although both social constructs, operate differently.

>not sure how that 'gotcha!' moment would work for me as a
>heterosexual
>male, because I have nothing to hold over LGBT folks' heads
>except
>their constitutional, human, and universal rights.

I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place, but in this post, the people on your side are hetero men who have previously expressed negative attitudes toward transgender identity; men who I think are opportunistically looking to strike back against the marginalized people who've challenged them in the past. Their participation, and the context in which it has arisen, makes it hard to trust the sincerity of this discussion.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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84. "My question is why are people trying so hard to distinguish the two?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 05:09 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

Can we all admit that all the reasons listed here and in other place are really really weak and unconvincing? I mean don't ppl feel that little knot in your stomach telling you that you sound just like all those people who tried to make arguments against transgenderism?



I think the transgendered community is doing themselves a huge disservice and are being super short sighted working so hard to distinguish the two.

It comes off as if their arguments for the right to self-identify are completely self-serving and an argument of convenience.

My only issue with the concept of transrace is the idea of white folks taking advantage of programs that are set aside for minorities. Other than that why does anyone really give a fuk?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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85. "This is the most fascinating part of this conversation to me:"
In response to Reply # 84


          

>Can we all admit that all the reasons listed here and in
>other place are really really weak and unconvincing? I mean
>don't feel that little not in your stomach telling you that
>you sound just like all those people who tried to make
>arguments against transgenderism?

A lot of people in here who fancy themselves progressives would sound like outright GOP evangelical bigots if their transrace analysis were framed in the context of transgender.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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87. "It just proves my theory that all ppl are self-ish and self-serving"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Teknontheou
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88. "I'm seeing a ton of pushback from black and white people on the internet"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last week.

The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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91. "Well I am talking about a very specific group, Pro-transgendered and ant..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

-transracial.

People who fall into that group are the ones who I think are clearly hypocritical.

It's not surprising people who are anti-transgendered are also anti-transracial.

It's also not surprising to me that Black people are supportive of her because it seems the woman had a track record that spoke to her commitment to racial issues. She doesn't come off as opportunistic like say an azelia banks.


>against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate
>situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are
>basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have
>predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last
>week.
>
>The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace
>is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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105. "lol right."
In response to Reply # 88


          

>against the idea that Jenner and this woman are separate
>situations, which is blowing my mind. Alot of people are
>basically in support of this woman, which o wouldn't have
>predicted, if you mentioned this to me as a hypothetical last
>week.
>
>The thing I'm seeing now is some people just saying "Transrace
>is not a thing", and hoping the discussion just stops there.


-->

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 04:59 PM

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86. "one deals with gender, one deals with skin color"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 05:00 PM by initiationofplato

          

this is easy. over complicating it makes it boring and stressful.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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denny
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97. "The argument (that we're trying to dismantle)"
In response to Reply # 86


          

is that if race can be defined as skin colour than gender can be defined by genitals.

We don't want gender to be defined as genitals. So we need to show how race is somehow different from gender.

  

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initiationofplato
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108. "don't dismantle it, simply ignore it"
In response to Reply # 97


          

i know you are open minded and have LIVED, so, i know you won't let something like someone's definition of race of gender bother you, so why even engage? its a waste of time b.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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denny
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114. "I don't think it's a waste of time."
In response to Reply # 108
Fri Jun-12-15 07:52 PM by denny

          

My high school did not have ONE out gay person. My step-daughter attends that high school currently.....there are somewhere close to 100 out gay people there now. They have a school-sanctioned LGBT club there now. It's a beautiful thing. My gym teacher used to call students faggots.

Things have changed DRASTICALLY because of discourse. So it's not a waste of time to refine our discourse in the attempts to persuade more people to be tolerant and respectful. When an argument surfaces that questions our discourse....we need to find a way to address it. Lest we stop changing hearts and minds.

  

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initiationofplato
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115. "i agree with that, however"
In response to Reply # 114


          

to me it just seems like there will always be a group of people that are naysayers to any idea. i'm telling you bro, if jesus/god himself climbed down from heaven and laid down the law, if there is any such thing, there would be a group of people that would disagree, give it a term, and than argue about it, lol. in my opinion, if you have a good heart, that is full of love, acceptance, and guidance for the young'uns in your immediate circle, that is more than enough to change the world.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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RS
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89. "transgender folks are normal & transrace"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Folks are certifiable and racist. Pass.

  

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SimplyHannah
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90. "Whatever someone wants to identify as....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Out of respect, I'll refer to them as that, even if I don't necessarily subscribe to it.


I was trying to grasp an understanding of this comparison on Twitter and from what I heard, some transgenders and transgender allies are saying that genetics(chromosomes) determine your biological sex (male or female) while gender is a societal construct that is "learned". So you can be biologically male or female, but can choose to identify with whatever gender you feel closest to because these are taught and learned behaviors.

Idk, some mind fuck shit that I don't have the time or patience for.

  

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2.tears.in.a.bucket
Member since Sep 04th 2009
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Fri Jun-12-15 05:56 PM

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93. "being black stymies ANY exploratory process. off rip."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 06:19 PM by 2.tears.in.a.bucket

  

          

wanna explore? see the world! climb mt. kilimanjaro? train-hop all around this great nation w/o incident?

nigga we can't even get in a funky-ass pool...

a white transgender is still going to be more readily welcomed most anywhere.

(for the record i support anybody's desire to do anything other than prey on children. i even support my opinion not mattering)

so i guess the answer is they don't fuck with us @ all?

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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94. "One is real and one is racist..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-12-15 06:09 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

Transracial ends up looking like this

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png

I'll put what I put in the other post...

Transracial Its not a thing...
People are using transracial to delegitimizatize transmen and women. It's akin to the "you want to change one social rule, the why just not take away all rules then" argument. Is there legitimate transracial movement, activism, community groups or any of the things that would mean there is a real group of people that identify this way? No... Are there white folks out there talking about they felt that they were black when they were born and craved whiting when their teeth came in but were only served flounder by their white parents who didn't understand. No...
There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white woman staging hate crimes though.
I'm surprised people are taking it seriously. The only people entertaining this are people who didn't fully grasp transgenderism and now want to spread their misunderstanding to other shit they don't understand.

I'll also add that the social stigma around being a transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.

The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking acceptance and what they gain from others.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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98. "I think everyone agrees with you."
In response to Reply # 94


          

But we're looking for a way of using language to differentiate between transex and transrace instead of just making accusations (however justified).

Don't you agree that we'd be better served with a discourse that shows why transrace is illegitimate?

  

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legsdiamond
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:07 PM

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101. "Nope. Its the same damn thing"
In response to Reply # 94


          

>Transracial ends up looking like this
>
>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png
>

Transgendered ends up looking like this

http://cdn04.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-new-vanity-fair-video.jpg

You find transracial offensive yet cant understand why others find transgendered offensive.

Its hypocritical IMO.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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102. "Total utter self-serving bullshit. One is a thing and the other is not ..."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

people decided one is a thing and the other is not. But look at history so many things were not things, until people decided they were things.

Transgenderism wasn't a thing. Homosexuality and Lesbianism were not things (both terms are less than a couple of hundred years old).


>Transracial ends up looking like this
>
>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mHze_WKcIpw/TCnpt2t_zMI/AAAAAAAABaQ/fHveaEXMRrk/s1600/vlcsnap-2010-06-29-14h19m14s71.png


And transgenderism ends up looking like this:

https://loft965.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dragraceleak.png

mainstreams depiction of either isn't what defines them.


>
>I'll put what I put in the other post...
>
>Transracial Its not a thing...
>People are using transracial to delegitimizatize transmen and
>women. It's akin to the "you want to change one social rule,
>the why just not take away all rules then" argument. Is there
>legitimate transracial movement, activism, community groups or
>any of the things that would mean there is a real group of
>people that identify this way? No... Are there white folks out
>there talking about they felt that they were black when they
>were born and craved whiting when their teeth came in but were
>only served flounder by their white parents who didn't
>understand. No...


Now I totally agree with you that folks are seizing on this too legitimize transgenderism. It is no coincidence that that woman's story is all over the news and peoples facebook streams.

But exploiting the issue doesn't make it less and issue and the opportunism of people on the issue doesn't undermine the logical and moral inconsitency of people supporting one form of self-identification and self-presenting and attempting to negate another form.

And you mock it (like GOP mocks LGBT) bu there have always been people passing and people who identifying with a race other than there own.

>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white
>woman staging hate crimes though.

And why do you think the woman was staging hate crimes? Because the police doubted her story? Weird intersection going on there because people ususally jump all other the police for treating a woman's claim of sexual harrasment so suspiciously. Because it's racial harrasment people have no problem dismissing her claims with little evidence based on police doubt.


>I'm surprised people are taking it seriously. The only people
>entertaining this are people who didn't fully grasp
>transgenderism and now want to spread their misunderstanding
>to other shit they don't understand.
>
>I'll also add that the social stigma around being a
>transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really
>isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as
>trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.
>
>The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking
>for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is
>less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking
>acceptance and what they gain from others.


Mayne y'all sound like Bill O'Reily talking about how there is there is this great benefit to identifying and presenting as african-american. Seriously, who else argues how being black is better than white in american other than white conservative shock jocks?


Folks should just admit that it's a value judgement. One I consider to be a thing and the other I don't consider to be a thing just because I am cool with one and not the other rather than going into all these contortions trying to craft a logic or moral argument around it.



>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:18 PM

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107. "Yup.. I was late as fuck on your angle but you are killing it on this is..."
In response to Reply # 102


          

Its amazing how quickly someine can go from MSNBC to FOXNEWS and not even know it.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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111. "Please, you read Ms. Jenners 5 page article "
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

and now you think you know enough about transgender people to contrast and compare their experience to someone else's....
Please stop.



___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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126. "Haven't read it yet. I guess you didn't notice that my position isn't"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

based on being the arbiter deciding whose self-identification is valid and whose invalid.

My position is based on the simple position, live and let live.

When that is your position you don't need to know jack about what it means to be transgendered to decide if it ain't hurting me let them rock. The same goes for the transracial.

I'd a thought live and let live would have been a guiding principle behind the transgendered movement but an element of that movement is revealing it's true self and showing that isn't the case.




>and now you think you know enough about transgender people
>to contrast and compare their experience to someone else's....
>
>Please stop.
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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109. "lol wow. "
In response to Reply # 94


          

This issue has brought out a previously unearthed bigotry that is fascinating to observe unveil itself.

>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this white
>woman staging hate crimes though.

lol. This is like saying, 'well there's this transgendered dude who likes to rape women and this other woman who sells meth but thinks she's a man" - and citing those two examples as your reasoning as to why you think transgendered identity is illegitimate. lol c'mon.

>I'll also add that the social stigma around being a
>transgender person is so crazy and dangerous the there really
>isn't much in the way of social benefit in identifying as
>trans, only personal benefit of being happy and healthy.

>The opposite is true with race... White who pass are looking
>for a social benefit either from blacks or others...that is
>less about how they feel on the inside and more about seeking
>acceptance and what they gain from others.

yikes. We're now telling people how they should feel and judging their own feelings?

This is a very familiar tactic: try to marginalize a group - as many people do w/ transgendered people - by positing a singular example of a troubled transgendered person to widely dismiss the entire concept.

Problem is - it never works. It's just a poor camouflage to mask bigotry and an unwillingness to accept a particular group.

-->

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:53 PM

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116. "White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long"
In response to Reply # 109
Fri Jun-12-15 07:56 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

The history is there and these people are not acting without historical context. If anything they are acting purely out of a historical context of white privilege.
It's not about "being who you really are" It's about possession...of the black body and all the gross stereotypes that come with it that they desire.

Those who can enjoy blackness, participate in it are fine by me. Culture is meant to be shared... but for some people participation is not enough. Blackness must be bought and owned and benefited from like one of a million commodities.
Transracial is just a new way to soften the language of an age old obsession with black folks mixed with never ending need for ownership of black bodies.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Vex_id
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117. "predictably, you want to make this about you."
In response to Reply # 116


          

Just as an evangelical wants to make transgendered identity and gay marriage about *them* and their conventional notion of what gender/marriage means, you are looking at the concept of transrace under a narrow lens whereby only your understanding of race is the legitimate one.

It's childish.

-->

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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118. "k"
In response to Reply # 117
Fri Jun-12-15 08:06 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

We don't have to agree but calling me childish ain't gon clap.

End convo.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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128. "How does all you just said, not apply to transgendered?"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

I mean the argument you made against the trans-racial is exactly the same argument that Elinor Burkett's NYT Op-Ed critique of Caitlyn Jenner and transgenderism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0

Pertinent part below:

People who haven’t lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn’t get to define us. That’s something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman.

Their truth is not my truth. Their female identities are not my female identity. They haven’t traveled through the world as women and been shaped by all that this entails. They haven’t suffered through business meetings with men talking to their breasts or woken up after sex terrified they’d forgotten to take their birth control pills the day before. They haven’t had to cope with the onset of their periods in the middle of a crowded subway, the humiliation of discovering that their male work partners’ checks were far larger than theirs, or the fear of being too weak to ward off rapists....

THE drip, drip, drip of Ms. Jenner’s experience included a hefty dose of male privilege few women could possibly imagine. While young “Bruiser,” as Bruce Jenner was called as a child, was being cheered on toward a university athletic scholarship, few female athletes could dare hope for such largess since universities offered little funding for women’s sports. When Mr. Jenner looked for a job to support himself during his training for the 1976 Olympics, he didn’t have to turn to the meager “Help Wanted – Female” ads in the newspapers, and he could get by on the $9,000 he earned annually, unlike young women whose median pay was little more than half that of men. Tall and strong, he never had to figure out how to walk streets safely at night.

Those are realities that shape women’s brains.

By defining womanhood the way he did to Ms. Sawyer, Mr. Jenner and the many advocates for transgender rights who take a similar tack ignore those realities. In the process, they undermine almost a century of hard-fought arguments that the very definition of female is a social construct that has subordinated us. And they undercut our efforts to change the circumstances we grew up with.

The “I was born in the wrong body” rhetoric favored by other trans people doesn’t work any better and is just as offensive, reducing us to our collective breasts and vaginas. Imagine the reaction if a young white man suddenly declared that he was trapped in the wrong body and, after using chemicals to change his skin pigmentation and crocheting his hair into twists, expected to be embraced by the black community.

Many women I know, of all ages and races, speak privately about how insulting we find the language trans activists use to explain themselves. After Mr. Jenner talked about his brain, one friend called it an outrage and asked in exasperation, “Is he saying that he’s bad at math, weeps during bad movies and is hard-wired for empathy?” After the release of the Vanity Fair photos of Ms. Jenner, Susan Ager, a Michigan journalist, wrote on her Facebook page, “I fully support Caitlyn Jenner, but I wish she hadn’t chosen to come out as a sex babe.”



RE: White people wanting to possess blackness is as old as the day is long
>The history is there and these people are not acting without
>historical context. If anything they are acting purely out of
>a historical context of white privilege.
>It's not about "being who you really are" It's about
>possession...of the black body and all the gross stereotypes
>that come with it that they desire.
>
>Those who can enjoy blackness, participate in it are fine by
>me. Culture is meant to be shared... but for some people
>participation is not enough. Blackness must be bought and
>owned and benefited from like one of a million commodities.
>Transracial is just a new way to soften the language of an age
>old obsession with black folks mixed with never ending need
>for ownership of black bodies.
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:32 PM

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130. "I agree with all that."
In response to Reply # 116
Fri Jun-12-15 09:43 PM by denny

          

If there is a legitimate case of a person who is transrace.....I can't conceive of it as of yet. My initial reaction that it would be one the scenarios you outlined. Either they have an ethnic romanticism type of thing going on.....or they want to lay claim to a burden that they don't actually experience (victim-hood seeking)....or they feel that their voice will carry more weight/taken more seriously....or they want access to a tangible benefit that they don't deserve (race-relevant scholarship/government tax benefit/etc). Most likely some combination of all four and none of them are legitimate or just.

And just like you mentioned earlier.....those possible motivations are not as present for gender transitions. Yes, it's true that trans issues also have scenarios that might involve opportunism (males transitioning to females and then competing in a woman's sports league)....but those instances are EXTREMELY rare.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:05 PM

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119. "It's the transgenders peeping in the locker room argument lol"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          


>There is Chet hanks who wants to call us niggas and this
>white
>>woman staging hate crimes though.

It's so funny that all of the Hannity, conservative talking points come out in all this.

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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120. "Except those are their unfounded fears"
In response to Reply # 119
Fri Jun-12-15 08:15 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

These are examples of real live racist doing real live things. Its not like we're short on racism in this society... And expecting it from people that engage in this kind of race play is so far out the box.
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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:12 PM

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121. "So this lady in the news today is a racist?"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

Or are you talking about the unfounded fears of people transforming into other races for the explicitly to be racist?

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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123. "There is a high chance she made up fake hate crimes"
In response to Reply # 121
Fri Jun-12-15 08:23 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

To deepen her "black experience" and gain credibility.
If not that then she didn't believe black folks were evolved enough to allow her to do the kinds of work she wanted to do because she is white. She was paid to give speeches on growing up black! So yes she is a racist....yes.
Its like the guy from the Indian one tear commercial....
http://lparchive.org/Mega-Man-Battle-Network-4-6/Update%2049/31-crying-indian1.jpg
This dude is Italian and ran around passing as an Indian because it made him feel special, unique and different.
The shit is racist as it comes.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:32 PM

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125. "What makes her racist? Misguided comes to mind but what makes her a raci..."
In response to Reply # 120


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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133. "Well there is the black face part for starters."
In response to Reply # 125


  

          


___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:54 PM

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136. "Again, apply your logic to transgender."
In response to Reply # 133


          

Is a man dressing as a woman automatically being sexist in that they are committing an act of imitation of a culturally traditionally subordinate group?

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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138. "black face and transgender people are not equivalent."
In response to Reply # 136
Fri Jun-12-15 11:55 PM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

I love how people are who didn't know jack squat about transpeople only a month and a half ago now know so much about it that they can now assign that experience to other people who have yet to articulate it for themselves.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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145. "If you describe what that lady is doing is blackface then clearly you"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          


You don't know what blackface is.

Then you keep resorting to this "y'all think you know transgemndserism" what gives you this great insight into transgemndserism that you think we clearly don't posess?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Sarah_Bellum
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150. "If this was black face than that is black face"
In response to Reply # 145
Sat Jun-13-15 08:20 AM by Sarah_Bellum

  

          

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1497394.1382802244!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/107440pcn-julianne.jpg

Based on stereotypes and born out of fetishism as it always has been. Keep handing out passes for trans-blackface.

__________________________________


DJTB YOMM

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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Sat Jun-13-15 08:54 AM

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152. "It's really weird "
In response to Reply # 150


          

to see the practice involving the genitals as entirely normative, while the one involving skin color is necessarily "born out of fetishism". That's totally strange to me.

  

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Vex_id
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153. "it is - and it's also logically bankrupt."
In response to Reply # 152


          

>to see the practice involving the genitals as entirely
>normative, while the one involving skin color is necessarily
>"born out of fetishism". That's totally strange to me.


-->

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Mon Jun-15-15 02:49 PM

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268. "Only if you continue to view this ahistorically"
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

That's pretty illogical
Context is important

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Cocobrotha2
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99. "I guess I'm still stuck on the individuals being used for comparison"
In response to Reply # 0


          

What bothers me about this woman is her attempt to hide her past. I can understand not feeling a connection to her past identity but her attempt to completely hide it seems cowardly in comparison to Caitlyn who continually revealed it to those closest to her and, eventually, the world.

I'm sure alot of transgendered men and women probably have pasts they want to forget and probably don't want the public spotlight but I'd think their transition would be something they'd at least share with their inner circles.

I believe this woman's husband knew she was white (just bc the parents were at the wedding) but if she didn't reveal this part of her to other close friends and confidants, I'd think she's a poor representative of trans-racials.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:11 PM

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103. "But this is only because we knew Jenner beforehand..."
In response to Reply # 99


          

There are probably transgendered who move to knew cities and create new lives just like this woman.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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SHAstayhighalways
Member since Sep 03rd 2014
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Fri Jun-12-15 08:39 PM

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127. "the major component to passing is secrecy otherwise you're not passing"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

lol she was doing it right but its just a concept that screams WRONG....WRONG © c. murphy

www.royallegacy.org

For Real (Official Video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRoCPO8esE

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:26 PM

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110. "How can one be trans race when one can only be human?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Jun-12-15 07:39 PM

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112. "to put it this way, i'm not going to deconstruct a turd"
In response to Reply # 0


          

to know that it's made of shit.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:41 PM

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131. "To answer the ?, they say race isn't scientific but gender is."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Meaning there's a measurable difference in hormones and whatnot when it comes to
men and women, the brain causes different parts of the body to develop, etc.

For one, if transrace and transgender are comparable, somebody gonna have to come up off
that lie that race is just a "social construct" and admit we ain't so alike. So that's
the first order of business. Somebody gonna have to be honest and stop lying about
why all these experiments keeps happening on us and why they trafficking organs.

For two, all this comparing it to people passing is silly, because people "pass" when
they already look a lot like the race they tryna pass for, and as Sha pointed out, secrecy
is a major component of that. So to make this comparable, are we saying the only
people who can really claim transrace are people who are half or already appear to
be the race they wanna pass for? How does this compare to transgender folks when
they go through "gender reassignment surgery"? You can tell me all day that your
past doesn't make you a man or a woman or that experiences don't contribute to it,
but I'm really gonna need you to fall down telling me the same is true for race.

And that leads to number 3. The government decides what race you are. Look at
Mustafa Hefny who has been fighting for years to be called black. That's not even
him trying to change what he is. That's him trying to be recognized as what he is...
ACCORDING to this "social construct" called race. Understand why that is, and then
get at me with this comparison.
Does the government do this to women or men over here? Is anyone born with a
penis fighting to be called or man or born with a vagina fighting to be called a woman?
I can't take nobody seriously who ignores white supremacy in this discussion.


~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Fri Jun-12-15 09:57 PM

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132. "Also this question from a white supremacist society is some bullshit"
In response to Reply # 0


          

(I'm including you, because conservative outlets have been asking this same question
since the Dolezal controversy came to light)

White supremacy said all Black people were (are) less than. It wasn't limited to men
or women. For white men to turn around and ask why you can accept a white MAN as a white woman
but not a white woman as Black is some offensive bullshit for reasons I'm tired of yall
insensitive pricks trying to turn into something tangible or measurable.



~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:19 PM

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134. "ya'll niggas, the white and black and others among you, are wild as shit..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Jun-12-15 10:50 PM

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135. "i understand one and don't understand the other."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But my understanding means nothing. If they like it I love it for them.

Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight,
>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?
>
>I'm not particularly interested in the conservative opinion
>here, whereby they think transgendered *and* transracial are
>silly concepts not worthy of equal rights under the law.
>
>I'm more interested in the progressive opinion - whereby in
>one respect, the cause of transgendered people is championed,
>yet on the flip side, the mere mention of transracial is a
>crime worthy of condemnation and clowning.
>
>Do tell.
>
>-->

fuck you.

  

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dEs
Member since Sep 01st 2006
34872 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 12:02 AM

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139. "trans ppl have existed for centuries"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

here's an excerpt of Janet Mock discussing mahuwahine, fa'afafine, and fakaleiti--pre-colonial Polynesian terms for transgender:

(Kindle screenshot)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/302/18759517411_236aa26d85_b.jpg

here are some other cultures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transgender_people_in_non-Western_cultures

also, science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Brain-based_studies

_____

shann.email/inbox.pls.

  

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dafriquan
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141. "Buddy and Vex...thank you"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

For NOT engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

We cant impose our own parameters when it suits us.

If we're gonna be open minded, lets commit fully to the concept of respecting one's choice to self identify, no matter how weird.

This Rachel chick is not a good candidate cause she lied too much about everything but the story still raises questions that cannot be brushed off easily. Saying transracial is not a "thing" does not discount it. Things that were never things have to start their new life as a thing someday. I only just found out ablist was a thing two weeks ago...lol. And I'm not even sold on it fully.

I have always been fascinated by that awkward fuzzy area where identity briefly reveals itself as the absurd concept it actually is.

And yet I think post-racial thought is a crock of shit.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sat Jun-13-15 05:29 AM

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146. "Too be fair, I don't if I am completely sold on either."
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

I actually found a lot to agree with in Elanor Burkett's op ed piece critical of trans genserism.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0&referrer=

It's a good read but she was thoroughly denounced for it.

But I can get down with the general principal live and let live so I don't even have to think too hard about understanding either of them.

I do think I am sympathetic to the white lady because she seems to have a long track record of supporting black causes. I wish more black people would join the NAACP. You should see all the comments of people taking shots at the NAACP when these ninjas fail to remember is there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.

Anyway, more than anything I hate hypocrisy and if folks came up with a decent distinction between the two I would acknowledge it but folks haven't and are being dishonest with themselves by not admitting that there isn't a good distinction.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jun-13-15 07:50 AM

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148. "Not everybody views that as a good thing."
In response to Reply # 146


          

>there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.
>


I'm of the opinion that we were better off segregated, and I'm definitely not the only one.



~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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264. "Things that people say ONLY after integration for $100 Alex. "
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

>>there would be no integrated America without the NAACP.
>>
>
>
>I'm of the opinion that we were better off segregated, and I'm
>definitely not the only one.
>
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Tue Jun-16-15 06:04 AM

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334. "Garvey said it prior..."
In response to Reply # 264


          

and of course people sometimes don't realize they didn't need what they wanted
until they get it. That's just life.

~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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414. "How'd that work out for the Garvey-ites?"
In response to Reply # 334


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Wed Jun-17-15 10:07 PM

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498. "Pretty well until integration. What has integration done for "
In response to Reply # 414
Wed Jun-17-15 10:09 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

Black unemployment levels?
Number of Black folk killed by police...
etc?

~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
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Sat Jun-13-15 08:07 AM

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149. "she's good as any because you can't be transracial without lying"
In response to Reply # 141


          

if your birth parents aren't black.

  

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dafriquan
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Sat Jun-13-15 08:33 AM

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151. "Slippery slope. "
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

If you think a transracial is lieing then what about this...

A man with balls and a penis who has competed against the most elite male atheletes in the whole world tells me he is actually a woman?
Should I call him a liar? Or should I say "Hey I can respect that. Do you"?

I lean towards allowing a transgendered woman to perform her femininity.

Race (especially in America) too is "performed". This was clearly demonstrated by all the funny #AskRachel memes. Most white people with an afinity for black culture for instance can answer 95% of all of those questions quite accurately.

I just read the article Buddy posted in his reply to me and it has articulated some of what I have observed in how some women react to gay or transgendered people. They are not flattered by their performance of femininity. Even going as far as to find it offensive because it borders on reductionist fetishism. But they don't get to deny a trans woman because it does not vibe with their woman. Might the same not apply to race?

Read the article with race goggles and holla back

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:00 AM

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157. "What part of "performance" is police brutality?"
In response to Reply # 151


          

>Race (especially in America) too is "performed".


~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 02:26 AM

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143. "I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-13-15 02:49 AM by denny

          

But I just tried changing one of the variables of her situation.

What if she actually declared that she was transrace. She hasn't. She is saying 'I am black'. But what if she said 'I was born to white parents but have always felt black on the inside'. If she explicitly stated that I think I'd find what she's doing less problematic. But notice...it would be less likely that she would get a scholarship for Howard...less likely that she'd have a high ranking position at the NAACP....less likely that she'd be a university prof in African studies.

I think that's a really important distinction. If she did what Caitlyn did in her context.....she wouldn't lie. She wouldn't take a picture of her doctor'ed hair and say "Going natural for my birthday". The deception proves to me that she knows she will get something of value out of lying. Caitlyn Jenner is doing nothing of the sort. In short....we could conceivably condemn Rachel without closing the door on the existence of a transrace identity. A person who identified themselves as 'transrace' wouldn't receive the benefits that we think Rachel is after. (a more credible voice, victim-hood seeking, etc)

So this kinda opens up some room to move here. When we change our perceptions of Caitlyn from being a man to a woman....we can do so while recognizing that Caitlyn has not had ALL the experiences of a woman. She has not experienced sexist barriers to success. She has not experienced fear of sexual assault the same way that a nontrans woman has. And we're ok with that. But with what Rachel's doing....she's not giving us the opportunity to make that distinction in our perception of her.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 02:58 AM

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144. "RE: I know that we're only loosely basing this thread on Rachel."
In response to Reply # 143


          

it's as if Caitlyn were to say....'I identify as a woman and have struggled with the burden of sexism all my life.' That's what Rachel is doing. I'd imagine our response would be 'ok we get that you feel like a woman....but you have NOT experienced those issues like other women have'.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sat Jun-13-15 06:22 AM

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147. "Caitlyn Jenner is DOING exactly what you said she isn't doing. "
In response to Reply # 143
Sat Jun-13-15 06:37 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

Caitlyn Jenner is not saying I am a transwoman. She is saying I am a Woman. The fact is we know Caitlyn is a trans because we remember when she was Bruce. We know her history.

Are you saying that transwomen who identify as "Women" and don't explicitly describe themselves as "Transwomen" are lying??!?!


And let's admit another thing. If an interviewer or reporter was interviewing a transwoman, and asked her if she was a man or a woman. And kept repeatingly badgering her about whether she was truly a woman. We would all think that that reporter was a dickhead right?


Try again.


>But I just tried changing one of the variables of her
>situation.
>
>What if she actually declared that she was transrace. She
>hasn't. She is saying 'I am black'. But what if she said 'I
>was born to white parents but have always felt black on the
>inside'. If she explicitly stated that I think I'd find what
>she's doing less problematic. But notice...it would be less
>likely that she would get a scholarship for Howard...less
>likely that she'd have a high ranking position at the
>NAACP....less likely that she'd be a university prof in
>African studies.
>
>I think that's a really important distinction. If she did
>what Caitlyn did in her context.....she wouldn't lie. She
>wouldn't take a picture of her doctor'ed hair and say "Going
>natural for my birthday". The deception proves to me that she
>knows she will get something of value out of lying. Caitlyn
>Jenner is doing nothing of the sort. In short....we could
>conceivably condemn Rachel without closing the door on the
>existence of a transrace identity. A person who identified
>themselves as 'transrace' wouldn't receive the benefits that
>we think Rachel is after. (a more credible voice, victim-hood
>seeking, etc)
>
>So this kinda opens up some room to move here. When we change
>our perceptions of Caitlyn from being a man to a woman....we
>can do so while recognizing that Caitlyn has not had ALL the
>experiences of a woman. She has not experienced sexist
>barriers to success. She has not experienced fear of sexual
>assault the same way that a nontrans woman has. And we're ok
>with that. But with what Rachel's doing....she's not giving
>us the opportunity to make that distinction in our perception
>of her.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 05:02 PM

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171. "It's simple:"
In response to Reply # 147


          

Caitlyn Jenner is not attaching herself to the historical struggles of women and the experience of growing up in a sexist world. She's not attaching herself to being discouraged from male-dominated fields. At least to my knowledge.

Rachel IS. She's attaching herself to the struggles of having African hair in a society that judges it. Attaching herself to the experience of being a victim of hate crime. Attaching herself to the experience of growing up in a racist world.

That difference is good enough for me to accept one and not the other. And I feel intellectually consistent in doing so.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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262. "This is called a dinstinction without a difference. "
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

>Caitlyn Jenner is not attaching herself to the historical
>struggles of women and the experience of growing up in a
>sexist world. She's not attaching herself to being
>discouraged from male-dominated fields. At least to my
>knowledge.
>
>Rachel IS. She's attaching herself to the struggles of having
>African hair in a society that judges it.

So her hairstyle choice is what's making the difference? She can't rock braids because only black people are allowed to wear braids? Are black women attaching themselves to white people by straightening their hair?


Attaching herself to the experience of being a victim of hate crime.


Listen either it happened or it did not. If it didn't happen. Shame on her. That would be indefensible. However why are folks so dismissive they are certain it didn't happen? This story is so convoluting people's sense of right and wrong that now people are sounding like the sexist who don't believe a woman's claims of sexual harrasment except this time it's racial harrasment. I personally could see a white woman who was "acting black" in a white environment would certainly be a prime target for racial harrasment.

Attaching
>herself to the experience of growing up in a racist world.
>
>That difference is good enough for me to accept one and not
>the other. And I feel intellectually consistent in doing so.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:53 AM

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156. "That "going natural" bullshit offends me more than any of it really..."
In response to Reply # 143


          

Her hair is naturally straight. foh.
It's like some elaborate joke and mockery of Black culture/existence where she's playing dress-up.

As for her lying about being Black, I'm side-eyeing the people who bought and allowed it
more than I'm side-eyeing her.

~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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esb225
Member since Nov 12th 2003
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:10 AM

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155. "there is no difference bc you are who you are... "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you can identify with a race but u can't just wake up one day and decide to be that race... u can alter your appearance and to further identify with said race but again you can't change ur dna and become that race...

same with transgender... you can alter your appearance and take as many hormones as you want but ur still who you are. you can alter your choices but you can never escape who you are at the core...

just my 2 cents

I got a good life man

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:14 AM

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158. "Melissa-Harris Perry is talking about it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and making some great points this morning that many of you had made.

the national response to this is as interesting (if not more interesting) than the
actual story.

-->

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 10:20 AM

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159. "Transrace is a new white supremacist buzzword. White privilege"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The idea that you can wear blackface and preform as a black person when it suits you. And it's being framed by transgender-ism while somehow ignoring centuries of black people attempting to "pass" as white through harmful skin lightening & hurtful hair straightening

Starting the conversation at transgendered white man is some white supremacist bullshit & I'm not surprised to see it being pushed by Vex or Buddy

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:36 AM

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160. "lol this is such non-sense, but entertaining non-sense."
In response to Reply # 159


          

Act brand new and blind to what the leading academics, scholars, and cultural commentators are actually saying - but a myriad of progressives (black, white, trans, etc..) are facilitating discussions on transrace and talking about this with real depth, as opposed to your attempt to outright dismiss it because it makes you uncomfortable.


-->

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
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Sat Jun-13-15 10:47 AM

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161. "I outright dismissed "transracialism" when framed by the Jenner situatio..."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

instead of the historical context of actual people of color who to this day just want to get to a point where their color doesn't define them because it isn't something that can be slipped off whenever its convenient unlike this woman who lied about her background

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:19 PM

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164. "you dismissed the mere mention of "transrace" as white supremacist jargo..."
In response to Reply # 161


          

regardless of whether it was framed/paralleled to transgender.

Nobody is even defending this NAACP woman in here (other than defending her right to self-identify) - we're talking about transrace in the vein of transgender because there are undeniable parallels (and nuances) that provides for an interesting discussion.

You don't even want that discussion to be had.

-->

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Sat Jun-13-15 09:19 PM

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181. "I find it absolutely consistent to dismiss transgenderism and transracia..."
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

That's morally and logically consistent.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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Sat Jun-13-15 11:01 AM

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162. "I'm with what Buddy said ultimately:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"My only issue with the concept of transrace is the idea of white folks taking advantage of programs that are set aside for minorities. Other than that why does anyone really give a fuk?"

Essentially, it's honestly too new of a concept (new meaning becoming a national buzzword, talk show topic, trending matter, etc.) for anyone to have a truly valuable comment on the situation without it veering into the opinion space.

Race and Gender are constructs that define one's human experience but to say race has a parallel with gender...it's tricky and almost dishonest to try and compare the two as if it's that static. I think we're all wise enough to realize it has and never will be that simple.

So, at the moment, just like most things that I'm not saddled with, if one wants to self-identify in a manner that makes them feel at peace, as long as it's not for selfish gain I'm largely going to keep it moving and not seek to tear it down.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
68077 posts
Sat Jun-13-15 11:47 AM

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163. "Man, its so entertaining watching people justify one and not the other....."
In response to Reply # 162


          

Personally, I respect ones decision to identify as woman but it doesnt mean I agree with it.

I knew this was next and its crazy seeing people on here rock for one but not the other because they feel it belongs to them.

This is exactly how evangelicals and conservatives feel when it comes to sexuality.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:22 PM

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165. "that's the dangerous crossroads right there."
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

>I knew this was next and its crazy seeing people on here rock
>for one but not the other because they feel it belongs to
>them.
>
>This is exactly how evangelicals and conservatives feel when
>it comes to sexuality.
>
>

And like you, it's odd that people don't think it possible for one to respect a person's choice but not agree with it. Like that's a melding of thoughts couldn't intersect for some reason.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sat Jun-13-15 05:10 PM

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172. "Post 171."
In response to Reply # 163


          

I think it's pretty irrefutable.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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266. "Naw, that post is pretty refutable. "
In response to Reply # 172


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:25 PM

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166. "People may not like the comparative analysis w/ gender,"
In response to Reply # 162
Sat Jun-13-15 12:26 PM by Vex_id

          

but there are parallels. There are differences as well, but to pretend as if there are no parallels is also intellectually dishonest. Where the parallel has meaning is in the basic philosophical foundation of one's thinking on why transgendered people should be respected: You are respecting their right to self-identify and not let a social construct (which they find limiting) wholly define who they are. That philosophy is transferrable into the transrace arena.

People's conceptions of race and gender greatly differ as it pertains to identity politics. Some don't want transgendered people to be able to challenge the conventional definitions of what gender, 'male' and 'female' and 'marriage' mean - others don't want what we're calling 'transrace' people to be able to challenge those conventional definitions of race. Both want people to shut up and fit within the conventional boxes of both gender and race, but are approaching that conclusion from very different paths.

There are parallels and there are differences with gender and race, and sometimes those difference don't have as much to do with the social constructs as it does the person who has developed an identity around those constructs, and reflexively seeks to defend those constructs based on how they self-identify.


-->

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Sat Jun-13-15 12:59 PM

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167. "Potential biological and chemical urges are present in one case"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and probably not the other.

Gender is also a pretty clear distinction (though not always entirely clear) where race is partly biological but largely defined socially.

Personally I don't buy into identifying oneself along lines of racial, religious, regional or cultural identity but I don't begrudge people who do either. So it's hard for me to be up in arms or have open arms about someone wants to be "transracial," if that's going to be a word now. I just say be who you are, if you feel that person has lighter skin or darker skin or speaks with a certain affectation, OK, but understand that not everyone will be receptive to that.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Sat Jun-13-15 01:00 PM

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168. "this is why:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Moreover - if you support the exploratory process, plight,
>and rights of trans-gendered people, why do you mock and
>belittle those who identify as transracial?

http://www.tmz.com/2015/06/02/chet-haze-n-word-rap-tom-hanks-son/


<----- Long Live The King

  

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jane eyre
Member since Jan 16th 2007
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Sat Jun-13-15 02:02 PM

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169. "RE: What is the distinguishing difference between transgender & transrac..."
In response to Reply # 0
<