so...God sent an angel to TELL Mary that she was going to give birth to God's son. Gabriel, the angel, didn't ASK Mary anything. she was told. considering she was a young woman or maybe even a girl...and God was a deity. w/all power in His hands and all that jazz. Alpha/Omega...you know the deal. what if she'd said 'no'? what would've happened to her? we know how God was at that point - He was still very Old Testament. he was into smiting ppl who disobeyed. and there was no salvation via Jesus - yet.

given the power differential did Mary give meaningful consent to this whole thing? isn't this at least as bad as what happens when a young girl has sex w/a teacher? i know God wasn't her teacher exactly - He considers Himself her 'father'. so...this is at least somewhat incestuous. we can ask Soon-Yi and Woody about it...we call that rape too. or molestation. either way we don't celebrate it.

i think maybe she was raped.

Luke 1:26-38

26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." 34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" 35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God." 38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

fuck you.

justified, by the definition of who He is.

And all-around asshole

That means his actions are always right, regardless of how they seem or feel to us.

I'm not telling you you have to believe that - most human beings on the planet do not believe it. But that's the logic.

By contrast, the ancient Greeks did not believe that their gods were inherently just. In fact, tons of rapes are committed by gods in Greek mythology and an ancient Greek would have immediately told you "oh yeah, Zeus raped whoever, or Poseidon raped this maiden, etc."

The point I'm making is that within Christian thought, that was not rape.

fuck you.

Lots of rapists are nice guys who 'mean well'.

fuck you.

Thus - rape.

fuck you.

If God Shammgod, a human being who played basketball in the 90s had done this, he'd be guilty of rape, sure.

How convenient.

fuck you.

fuck you.

In the United States of America, in 2015, with a natural person as the accused, it would totally be rape.

fuck you.

.

************************************************************

>so...God sent an angel to TELL Mary that she was going to
>give birth to God's son. Gabriel, the angel, didn't ASK Mary
>anything. she was told. considering she was a young woman or
>maybe even a girl...and God was a deity. w/all power in His
>hands and all that jazz. Alpha/Omega...you know the deal.
>what if she'd said 'no'? what would've happened to her? we
>know how God was at that point - He was still very Old
>Testament. he was into smiting ppl who disobeyed. and there
>was no salvation via Jesus - yet.
>
>given the power differential did Mary give meaningful consent
>to this whole thing? isn't this at least as bad as what
>happens when a young girl has sex w/a teacher? i know God
>wasn't her teacher exactly - He considers Himself her
>'father'. so...this is at least somewhat incestuous. we can
>ask Soon-Yi and Woody about it...we call that rape too. or
>molestation. either way we don't celebrate it.
>
>i think maybe she was raped.
>
>Luke 1:26-38
>
> 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God
>to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed
>to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the
>virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said,
>"Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" 29 But she
>was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what
>sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her,
>"Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31
>And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and
>you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be
>called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to
>him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over
>the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be
>no end." 34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be,
>since I am a virgin?" 35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy
>Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
>overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called
>holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth
>in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth
>month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be
>impossible with God." 38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the
>servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."
>And the angel departed from her.
>
>

would say.

either way, i'm interested in watching this cook...


***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

i still blame hip-hop.

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

what would've happened to her if she'd said 'no'?

fuck you.

and edited by men only

fuck you.

and why out of all the religions christianity pisses me off the most
i don't see how these evangelical xtian extremists don't see that they are exactly like the crazy nut bag islamic terrorists.

shit I dunno....

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

besides...she consented.

""Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word"

It was an honor to have jesus.

like if a lady went to the gyn and the doc told her, "hark, I'm putting this fertilized egg in ya. He's gonna grow to be 6'8, 265 and dominate the basketball world. He will have a bad hairline. Go in peace."

No woman is gonna be like nah, i'll pass.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Considering the power dynamic her 'consent' is tainted. Maybe she just said yes bc she had no real choice. Like when a teacher or father or correctional officer ', et al, does the same thing. I think Mary gave 'consent' under duress or at least undue pressure. I'm not sure the conception was voluntary.

fuck you.

Get stoned to death for adultery or use society's superstitions to your advantage to stay alive?

Mary was a hustler.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

Or they do not have a meaningful, submitted covenant relationship with God. No mature Christian would even think of such a evil thing as, "Did God rape Mary?" Such an idea is sick and or comes from a mind that is trying to create an atmosphere of confusion. I'm disgusted by the question. But I consider the source.
.
.

dont talk down. put them up on game - it might be some folk reading this that genuinely wanna know.

in his reply... the title was partially intended to shock the reader.

But there's also some genuinely compelling ideas that I'm sure have been discussed by theologians over the years... but has that discussion happened in the context of recent legal precedent? Does it even make sense to recast ancient "events" in contemporary contexts? Can we tease something out about the nature of faith and obedience in the Bible and the religion by engaging in this discussion?

Case doesn't go there... I'll be charitable and say that trolling is more entertaining to him.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

>in his reply... the title was partially intended to shock the
>reader.
>
>But there's also some genuinely compelling ideas that I'm sure
>have been discussed by theologians over the years... but has
>that discussion happened in the context of recent legal
>precedent? Does it even make sense to recast ancient "events"
>in contemporary contexts? Can we tease something out about the
>nature of faith and obedience in the Bible and the religion by
>engaging in this discussion?
>
>Case doesn't go there... I'll be charitable and say that
>trolling is more entertaining to him.

There are likely lay people who believe but have trouble with these points, or will now that they've read it. Even more important is thinking about how young people will approach the Bible given how attitudes are developing towards consent. The challenge as a Christian, I think, is down to how you approach those people. Do you give their questions and issues due consideration, or ignore them in favour of playing the man (in this instance SoWhat).

It's of no surprise that Christianity overall is diminishing in numbers, given that these people feel that the church doesn't care about them, and therefore can't feel God in their lives. The usual path of the church is to blame those people for leaving, which makes me wonder at what point does a Christian like that actually takes responsibility for turning people away from the faith, or whether for them that's somehow impossible so they can act the way they want and always place the responsibility elsewhere.

Just IMO though.

SoWhat was / in not interested in learning about the Bible or its truth, or having a reasonable dialog. So it is what it is. But thank you for your opinion. Merry Christmas.
.
.
.

the question. Almost everyone in here so far already has, and the answer has been "no, God did not rape Mary" from a couple different angles.

When you react the way you just did you make it seem like Christian doctrine and thought is too delicate to handle tough questions, which is not the case (no pun intended).

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

.
.
.

you're right about that.

and you're right that i've titled this post provocatively.

fuck you.

Christianity with each other the whole time. Why are you still getting sucked into religion shock posts like you just got here last week?

Who knows how much of His wisdom would have been squandered had that been His stock response whenever someone was trying to trap Him.

Just IMO though.

Seeing as you've got all the answers already... I don't know why you'd even bother conversing with anyone.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

I would also attempt to discredit the source rather than deal with substance if I were you. But I'm not you and I would instead examine the issues raised and would be troubled. Bc a deity basically raped a child impregnating her and then demands that we celebrate the act. It's odd.

fuck you.

You made a clear Bait Post, so don't try to hide your hand and act like your were at the front of the class asking questions with your Oooh Oooh hand raised,
.
.
.

yes, it's a provocative question - i intended that it be so.

i'm not interested in being educated on Xtian doctrine on the issue b/c i already know it, thanks.

i'm asking if we can see a rape in the conception story when we interpret the story in a modern context that doesn't give the sort of deference that the Biblical interpretation rooted in Xtian doctrine will give. b/c of course in a Biblical interpretation there's no rape since as Tek pointed out God cannot sin and all of that. i knew that when i made the post.

fuck you.

Kill all the side talk. You knew what your were trying to do.


.
.
.

i'm engaging the board in a discussion about a modern interpretation of the Immaculate Conception that questions whether Mary gave meaningful consent to be impregnated by God.

answers rooted in Biblical interpretations that rely on Xtian doctrine aren't relevant to the discussion. however, i understand and accept the answer from that perspective - of course God didn't rape Mary when we read the story from that perspective. but i'm asking about another perspective that doesn't rely on Xtian doctrine.

fuck you.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

So what is trying to use a lens that doesn't exist for a discussion. You have to have an understanding of God to ask why at this point if divine conception is rape. At this point in the story, it's like God's males have been ordered to Cut their dicks. You don't interpret any story without context. There is a double standard frequently used when people want to treat the bible as a story, but then don't want to interpret it the same way you would Catch 22.

Taking shots in the dark/that's a bad call
Going straight for your head/ gotta saw it off

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

fuck you.

Egypt origin story they stole it from was way better...

sexing dead people..

much more poppin

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

Horus....

Immaculate conception.. moms Isis sexes dead dad Osiris

If you care to nerd out

http://www.academia.edu/1954926/Divine_Mothers_The_Influence_of_Isis_on_the_Virgin_Mary_in_Egyptian_Lactans-Iconography

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

It's generally considered bad form to use the European names for them.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

no hotep

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

http://www.youtube.com/user/gumzization
twitter: @BrosefMalone

fuck you.

Seriously tho I'd be super jealous if I was Joseph


God can create everything ...including the size of his dick


He probably gave Mary that work in the sheets man.

like...this woman...my FIANCEE is pregnant. i know *I* didn't fuck her. b/c she won't give up the dugout. but now she's knocked up and claims the GOD HIMSELF is her baby daddy.

hell no. i'd want the baby tested.

fuck you.

With examples of how God spoke with humans and they had the choice to listen or go they own route...

first example is Adam and Eve... they were told what they could do and what the consequences would be if they didnt listen...

Cain and Abel... Cain was warned about his attitude... but he didnt listen and murdered his brother...

Abraham... was told that if he left his home and relied on God he would be blessed....

Lot...God said he would destroy Sodom and Gomorah.. Lot actually went back and forth with God... about destroying the city...

Moses...God told moses to lead Isreal but Moses initially said he could not do it... then he said he would do it but needed someone to talk for him which was Aaron..

Solomon... God asked him what he wanted and Solomon asked for wisdom...his choice...


Naomi and Ruth.. in the book of Ruth she had the choice of leaving and going back to worshiping other gods.. she chose to stay..

.... I could go on but perhaps reading the bible would be good for you instead of trying to apply a non spiritual mindset to something intended for spiritual people...


Kinda like saying ..did the United States Murder Osama Bin Laden..

You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

=======================================
Coolin...

what would've happened to Mary if she'd said she didn't want to be God's baby mama?

we see how He threatened others as you've pointed out.

given that Mary was a poor girl and God was the omnipotent deity - was she able to give meaningful consent to the conception? or was her will overborne?

i'd be more comfortable w/the story if God had given her at least a chance to consider the offer. hell, i'd feel better about it if God had actually made an OFFER and not merely issued a demand. b/c her womb is hers and she should've been able to decide for real if she wanted to be Jesus' mother. i dunno that she did. i dunno that she could've given actual consent b/c of the difference in the power she held versus the power God held.

i've never been okay w/the conception story though. i find it incredibly creepy (he sent an angel to her in the middle of the night) and now i think it's at least somewhat rapey.

and FTR i've read 2/3 of the Bible, player. i was a somewhat serious Xtian in my youth. i grew up attending church 2 or 3x per week. i was Baptist and then Pentecostal.

fuck you.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Even if it's not rape, it's out of wedlock pregnancy.

Mary is described as 'ever virgin' - so did she slack in her wifely duties to Joseph following their marriage of convenience?

All of which reminded me of stories I learned in studying history but don't remember well, but I believe a princess of some sort was seduced by a guy who dressed as an angel and came through her window telling her he was a messenger from God. If memory serves he got caught and defenestrated. Can't find anything online though so maybe I'm misremembering.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

wondering if Joseph suffered any difficulty when the ppl in his community found out that his fiancee was pregnant. the Bible doesn't tell us when the 2 married but we know that Joseph didn't get to bang until after she gave birth. so yeah she slacked on her duties until after the birth (maybe she hooked him up in other ways though).

anyway, we see that Joseph wanted to bail at first b/c he understood the difficulty of the situation. but he was convinced to stay. i can't imagine the 2 of them explaining the pregnancy to their parents and the larger community.

fuck you.

just dealt with whatever people had to say.

In addition, if both of y'all have been visited by angels and you know your lady is carrying God's Son, you're going to care alot less about what others have to say. That's just me using logic based on what's given in the text.

back then women got stoned for stepping out of line. at least that was the law. maybe it wasn't enforced very much. b/c i don't see how she wasn't stoned - or even charged. of course, it was a miracle and all of that but even Jesus was punished for His violations of the various laws of the land. Mary at least looked like she was guilty of a pretty serious offense. it's odd that it wasn't ever addressed.

and anyway i asked when i was a teen b/c i imagined me or any of my peers going to our parents w/THAT story - she's knocked up but i didn't do it it was God. or her saying yeah i'm knocked up but i'm still a virgin. it's preposterous. i can't imagine the ppl around them accepted that easily. but the Bible doesn't say much of anything about that.

fuck you.

It's not like (despite the star, the angels, and all) they advertised Jesus's true paternity anyway, so whatever explanation was offered would be interesting.

> we know that
>Joseph didn't get to bang until after she gave birth.

According to catholic and some other doctrines, HE NEVER BANGED. Mary remained a virgin her entire life - the doctrine of perpetual virginity. The idea of Mary's perpetual virginity took root fairly quickly - within the first few centuries after Christ - and has maintained a hold on the Christian imagination ever since.

There's some difficulty over this as the Bible refers to Jesus's brothers but official Catholic doctrine skirts that issue.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

that's so weird.

LOL

fuck you.

I was raised Catholic so I insist (if we're to celebrate Christmas) we go to Church on Christmas eve. But for kids who are not exposed to Catholicism on a regular basis the whole thing is just weird.

I was brushing up my 5 year old on the reason for the season the other day - avoiding the difficult-to-grasp question of divine paternity without penetration - and the kid said 'wait! how was the baby God? Thhat doesn't make any sense! It's just, like, so... weird."

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

as confused as a i was by the whole thing when i was a kid i can understand.

the whole story kinda unravels when one asks too many questions. of course in Sunday School the typical answer was that i couldn't comprehend God's logic b/c i'm not God. of course that answer never set well w/me.

fuck you.

>>the whole story kinda unravels when one asks too many questions. of course in Sunday School the typical answer was that i couldn't comprehend God's logic b/c i'm not God. of course that answer never set well w/me.


looking around at the other kids like "so this is a joke right? They're going to give us the real explanation later?"

there was no real explanation.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

the doctrine is that He was right on time

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

There maybe some controversy about how Joseph was "convinced". I believe they say he was visited by an Angel. Angels are very frightening to humans. Check out how people reacted to seeing them anywhere in the Old Testament: terror.

Taking shots in the dark/that's a bad call
Going straight for your head/ gotta saw it off

It seems like he was just sneaky, in and out without a fuss.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/undertakerwlf/media/bio%20cards/Zeus_zps9126ca22.jpg.html

____
Some will tell you that they love you but they've got an ulterior motive - Oh what a shame
They will tell you that they need you but they've got an ulterior motive - Personal gain

(c) Luciano


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0-qndkemo

Because Leda turned down Zeus's advances, he turned himself into a swan and 'seduced' her. Imagine being raped by a SWAN!