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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:04 PM

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"Ask me about Freemasonry."


  

          

Haven't done this in a minute.

And...well, I'm not doing any more work today.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
what are the options for women
Aug 08th 2007
1
What do you mean "options?"
Aug 08th 2007
3
what's an OES?
Aug 09th 2007
321
      Order of the Eastern Stars
Aug 09th 2007
329
its not cheap
Aug 08th 2007
43
Why so secretive?
Aug 08th 2007
2
I make an "Ask me about Freemasonry" post...
Aug 08th 2007
6
      also initiation
Aug 08th 2007
8
      Werd.
Aug 08th 2007
12
      Yeah. Those things.
Aug 08th 2007
25
           They are ways to tell who's a Mason and who's not.
Aug 08th 2007
37
                well...
Aug 08th 2007
152
                     RE: well...
Aug 08th 2007
153
                          just popped in to say he just answered the HELL out of your questions...
Aug 08th 2007
157
                          RE: just popped in to say he just answered the HELL out of your question...
Aug 20th 2007
420
                          I couldn't put this any clearer
Aug 08th 2007
177
                          I'm not taking credit for it.
Aug 08th 2007
181
                               oh trust...I recognized it immediately
Aug 08th 2007
187
                               yeah, I know exactly where you got it from
Aug 08th 2007
230
                          Aight...since you want to get technical..
Aug 08th 2007
244
                               RE: Aight...since you want to get technical..
Aug 08th 2007
247
                                    LOL...thanks for being Victor Vagueness...
Aug 08th 2007
251
                                         Define "real" answer?
Aug 08th 2007
253
                                              I'm glad that we both acknowledge the fact....
Aug 08th 2007
263
                                                   LOL, you mad doggie?
Aug 08th 2007
267
                                                        lol@boo boo...
Aug 08th 2007
271
                                                             Did you get anything out of it?
Aug 08th 2007
273
                                                                  My perspective on freemasonry...
Aug 08th 2007
297
                                                                       Were you open to change your perspective...
Aug 08th 2007
299
                                                                            The only thing consistent with time is change....
Aug 09th 2007
325
                                                                                 We already established that I can't.
Aug 09th 2007
330
                                                                                      glad you accept defeat graciously...one last question though..
Aug 09th 2007
338
                                                                                           I have a friend of the family who's muslim who asked that same question....
Aug 09th 2007
343
                                                                                           *sneezes* BULLSH!T!!! *sneezes*
Aug 09th 2007
348
                                                                                           LOL, I can't even say I don't know?
Aug 09th 2007
349
                                                                                           ^^^lied^^^
Aug 14th 2007
402
RE: Ask me about Freemasonry.
Aug 08th 2007
4
2B1ASK1
Aug 08th 2007
7
why aren't more of you guys architects?
Aug 08th 2007
5
We aren't operative, we're speculative.
Aug 08th 2007
9
      yeah, I figured that. It just seems like the original masons built stuff
Aug 08th 2007
19
           They did...
Aug 08th 2007
23
                nothing. But that's my point. How come they can't do like they used to?
Aug 08th 2007
26
                     Nah, not the same.
Aug 08th 2007
29
                          but I've seen bridges here with masonic symbols on it that are eons
Aug 08th 2007
35
*nods*
Aug 08th 2007
10
Why?
Aug 08th 2007
11
Because.
Aug 08th 2007
14
respond to this Pharoahe Monch quote:
Aug 08th 2007
13
Every president's not a mason.
Aug 08th 2007
15
      Who wasn't?
Aug 08th 2007
17
      A google search says the ones that were were:
Aug 08th 2007
21
      Yes but from what 'we' know of Freemasons
Aug 08th 2007
27
      Well, that's why I do these posts...
Aug 08th 2007
30
      yeah but got frats too like skull & bone that fall under
Aug 08th 2007
136
      That's true...
Aug 08th 2007
166
      How/when was Franklin D. a Mason...
Aug 08th 2007
159
      he didn't become wheelchair bound until later in life
Aug 08th 2007
173
      You're forgetting William Jefferson Clinton
Aug 08th 2007
208
           He wasn't a Mason.
Aug 08th 2007
212
                33rd deg
Aug 08th 2007
213
                     This is where you provide evidence.
Aug 08th 2007
214
                          RE: This is where you provide evidence.
Aug 08th 2007
220
                               1) Albert Pike was dead before Clinton was born...
Aug 08th 2007
222
                                    Jesse Jackson
Aug 08th 2007
223
                                    Oh...you have nothing.
Aug 08th 2007
226
                                    Woodrow Wilson
Aug 08th 2007
225
                                         Federal Reserve is bigger than Masons.
Aug 08th 2007
227
      all but 30 of them.
Aug 08th 2007
24
      Kennedy was NOT a Mason
Aug 08th 2007
206
           You really should pay attention.
Aug 08th 2007
210
                I am
Aug 08th 2007
215
Do you all want to run the world?
Aug 08th 2007
16
Who doesn't want to run the world?
Aug 08th 2007
18
      I don't want to run the world
Aug 08th 2007
22
           ^^^^^fishing for secrets lol
Aug 08th 2007
31
           That was tongue in cheek.
Aug 08th 2007
34
whats the level of segregation in the urban centers (DC, for example?)
Aug 08th 2007
20
Well, there are a lot of Grand Lodges coming around now
Aug 08th 2007
28
      *the bible belt tightens up another notch*
Aug 08th 2007
33
      wow its like the whole Southeastern Conference and shit.
Aug 08th 2007
38
      Well, it depends.
Aug 08th 2007
41
           Can you explain a little the recognition aspect and what is the
Aug 08th 2007
48
           Well, recognition is just that....
Aug 08th 2007
49
           WHOA!!!!
Aug 08th 2007
90
                Werd.
Aug 08th 2007
94
      It's funny though
Aug 08th 2007
142
           LOL, yeah, I mean I'm cordial to all Masons...
Aug 08th 2007
149
you goin to the east anytime soon?
Aug 08th 2007
32
I pretty much got one foot over there now...
Aug 08th 2007
36
      Our lodge is planning a trip as we speak...
Aug 08th 2007
42
           Werd.
Aug 08th 2007
47
i thought you weren't supposed to talk about it
Aug 08th 2007
39
That's not true.
Aug 08th 2007
40
      DING!
Aug 08th 2007
           Barnes and Noble...internet.
Aug 08th 2007
104
shibboleth much?
Aug 08th 2007
44
Off.
Aug 08th 2007
45
      ...like a mug.
Aug 08th 2007
46
           yall got the nut off tho..
Aug 08th 2007
151
i had my first officer's meeting as Master last week
Aug 08th 2007
50
Not really.
Aug 08th 2007
51
my board is all screwy b/c of our meeting dates
Aug 08th 2007
53
      When ours falls on a holiday...
Aug 08th 2007
56
           we can do that too, BUT
Aug 08th 2007
64
I'm dreading it...
Aug 08th 2007
52
      i never wanted to punch a 90 year old in the face before becoming WM
Aug 08th 2007
54
           Wow...I now see the benefits of a small lodge.
Aug 08th 2007
58
                this IS a relatively small lodge
Aug 08th 2007
68
                     Wow.
Aug 08th 2007
101
                          my district is in Manhattan, so the numbers are a little skewed, lol
Aug 08th 2007
113
What is the mission or goal of the organization?
Aug 08th 2007
55
To Make Good Men Better...
Aug 08th 2007
57
      What are the methods they use to achieve this goal?
Aug 08th 2007
71
           That's the thing...
Aug 08th 2007
72
                What does that mean?
Aug 08th 2007
73
                Ha, I wish we did.
Aug 08th 2007
79
                     But ya'll have meetings and such obviously...
Aug 08th 2007
109
                          RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously...
Aug 08th 2007
115
                               RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously...
Aug 08th 2007
122
                                    RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously...
Aug 08th 2007
123
                                         Wait wait
Aug 08th 2007
132
                                              Yep...
Aug 08th 2007
144
                it's also a little Karate Kid-like
Aug 08th 2007
74
                     Exactly.
Aug 08th 2007
80
                          m'sayin. if you can learn degree work, presentations aint shit.
Aug 08th 2007
99
are there any parallels to alchemy in freemasonry?
Aug 08th 2007
59
I don't know much about alchemy...
Aug 08th 2007
61
      you should do a little side research
Aug 08th 2007
69
      Well, there is so much side research...
Aug 08th 2007
84
           when Im decked in my Black and Whites...
Aug 08th 2007
169
                lolol
Aug 08th 2007
221
      >I'd say NGE has parallels.
Aug 08th 2007
313
           Now, I don't know a lot about NGE....
Aug 08th 2007
315
                cool
Aug 10th 2007
377
do they still have that org/program for the youth?
Aug 08th 2007
60
Yerp.
Aug 08th 2007
62
RE: Yerp.
Aug 08th 2007
83
      My opinion is...
Aug 08th 2007
89
           I can dig that. n/m
Aug 08th 2007
130
We have Khedive in Alabama
Aug 08th 2007
77
Difference between York and Scottish rite?
Aug 08th 2007
63
The accent.
Aug 08th 2007
65
haha
Aug 08th 2007
66
I don't know the difference...
Aug 08th 2007
67
so you're still a master mason?
Aug 08th 2007
93
      Always a Master Mason.
Aug 08th 2007
96
           yeah i know. i'm a star. i just thought you had moved up.
Aug 08th 2007
97
                Werd.
Aug 08th 2007
102
                     yeah...well being broke is my excuse.
Aug 08th 2007
110
                          That's the damn truth.
Aug 08th 2007
112
                               4sho
Aug 08th 2007
155
different charters
Aug 08th 2007
70
*stands on the square*
Aug 08th 2007
75
I was born on Castle William Island.
Aug 08th 2007
78
      off the square
Aug 08th 2007
95
           2004
Aug 08th 2007
98
           I was also a member of a one-day class, but NY did it different
Aug 08th 2007
111
*
Aug 08th 2007
76
have you performed the secret blood rituals yet?
Aug 08th 2007
81
I had to fuck my cousin.
Aug 08th 2007
82
huh, I was talking about the blood oath that masons have to do
Aug 08th 2007
86
      What blood oath that Masons have to do?
Aug 08th 2007
88
      *elbows on table, fists under chin* enlighten me, oh wise one
Aug 08th 2007
105
      Right.
Aug 08th 2007
108
      I'm all ears...
Aug 08th 2007
124
           in case he doesnt come back, i asked him in his other thread, and
Aug 08th 2007
133
                know what, fuck it, I'm admitting that we do that
Aug 08th 2007
135
                i still get stigmata from time to time in my index finger
Aug 08th 2007
138
                My asshole was bleeding...
Aug 08th 2007
143
                haha that's some twisted rehash of the mob's making ceremony
Aug 08th 2007
317
                LOL. yeah right.
Aug 10th 2007
363
LOL
Aug 08th 2007
119
how many levels till you can do a movie w/ nick cage?
Aug 08th 2007
85
RE: how many levels till you can do a movie w/ nick cage?
Aug 08th 2007
87
already in the can
Aug 08th 2007
114
      lol AND HE WORKS IN MEDIA. Go figure. I see you, Gator.
Aug 08th 2007
201
have you been to the lodge in philly yet?
Aug 08th 2007
91
Nah, I've been saying I was gonna go to Philly.
Aug 08th 2007
92
      i can let you know when the next event is, if you like
Aug 08th 2007
100
           LOL
Aug 08th 2007
103
who controls the British crown? who keeps the Metric system down?
Aug 08th 2007
106
We do.
Aug 08th 2007
107
when i got to meetings, that's my away message, lol
Aug 08th 2007
116
      that's the punchline of all my Masonry jokes at work.
Aug 08th 2007
117
with regard to the 7 liberal arts and sciences
Aug 08th 2007
118
If I recall correctly...
Aug 08th 2007
120
much of masonry's origins are traced to King Solomon's Temple
Aug 08th 2007
121
      yep
Aug 08th 2007
129
RE: Ask me about Freemasonry.
Aug 08th 2007
125
Masonry is not affiliated with any religion
Aug 08th 2007
126
      I argue with people about this all the time
Aug 08th 2007
134
           no disrespect, but your WM is dead wrong.
Aug 08th 2007
137
           none taken. I don't like the mans narrowminded thoughts at all
Aug 08th 2007
150
           We have a Muslim brother in my lodge that was raised by a Jew...
Aug 08th 2007
141
so do you guys work in conjunction with the Crab People???
Aug 08th 2007
127
yeah, they are an offshoot of the Shriners
Aug 08th 2007
128
      I knew it!!!!!!
Aug 08th 2007
131
I read this whole post and still feel like I know nothing about it
Aug 08th 2007
139
LOL, I mean, it's hard to "know" anything from the outside.
Aug 08th 2007
140
what Remy said.... is there something specific you're looking to know?
Aug 08th 2007
145
      that's just it, I don't know what to ask either. lol
Aug 08th 2007
146
           LOL, that's what I figured.
Aug 08th 2007
147
           hehe, kinda tough to help you there
Aug 08th 2007
148
Here are some questions:
Aug 08th 2007
154
RE: Here are some questions:
Aug 08th 2007
156
      mo questions.
Aug 08th 2007
161
           RE: mo questions.
Aug 08th 2007
162
           just stop showing up or
Aug 08th 2007
168
So why don't ya'll try to make bad men good...
Aug 08th 2007
158
Ok, let's go down this path:
Aug 08th 2007
160
welp, that might be the quickest chess game I've ever seen.
Aug 08th 2007
179
LOL, I think she's just occupied elsewhere.
Aug 08th 2007
186
I would hope not. And if I do, I don't go lookin' for em..
Aug 09th 2007
350
      for the same reason that you don't date bad men
Aug 09th 2007
351
      RE: I would hope not. And if I do, I don't go lookin' for em..
Aug 09th 2007
352
      it actually has nothing to do with what you "got"
Aug 10th 2007
364
      it actually has nothing to do with what you "got"
Aug 10th 2007
365
cuz thats what prisons are for?
Aug 08th 2007
163
      She was comparing, I don't think she was saying Masons are well off.
Aug 08th 2007
167
           oops, my bad...
Aug 08th 2007
175
To the Masons on this site....tell me your compass?
Aug 08th 2007
164
I was like...huh?
Aug 08th 2007
165
i was trying to say what I was trying to say w/o saying it...
Aug 08th 2007
172
Started out in the north...
Aug 08th 2007
171
I look east like "Man...I COULD do it...
Aug 08th 2007
174
      Why?
Aug 08th 2007
180
      i dunno man...
Aug 08th 2007
184
      Explain how the other houses will prepare you for the East.
Aug 08th 2007
185
      It's not really a matter of preparation, Remy
Aug 08th 2007
189
           Oh, I know that.
Aug 08th 2007
193
      RE: i dunno man...
Aug 08th 2007
255
           Could be anything.
Aug 08th 2007
261
                RE: Could be anything.
Aug 08th 2007
274
                     I don't know...
Aug 08th 2007
275
                          RE: I don't know...
Aug 08th 2007
304
                               Am I?
Aug 08th 2007
314
                                    RE: Am I?
Aug 08th 2007
316
      exactly...
Aug 08th 2007
194
           Bamas just wanna do it to do it....
Aug 08th 2007
197
      same here...
Aug 08th 2007
183
we dont use that terminology either, but if i understand right, i went
Aug 08th 2007
176
just South and West
Aug 08th 2007
190
Aside from methods and modes of recogniton....
Aug 08th 2007
170
RE: Aside from methods and modes of recogniton....
Aug 08th 2007
178
      I'll take a stab at this one...
Aug 08th 2007
238
           Werd, thanks...
Aug 08th 2007
239
Any of you have Symbols on your car?
Aug 08th 2007
182
LOL, I got one...and got a ticket too.
Aug 08th 2007
188
First time I knew a close friend was a Mason...
Aug 08th 2007
192
I can recall 4 tickets I got out of
Aug 08th 2007
204
Yup...
Aug 08th 2007
199
i've got a decal on my back window, and wear a ring on my right hand
Aug 08th 2007
229
serious questions for you
Aug 08th 2007
191
BOO!! Somebody already did this.
Aug 08th 2007
195
      awwwww! fuck, funny ideas always comes to me late!
Aug 08th 2007
196
           you were early on banging your cousin,
Aug 08th 2007
265
Here we go....signalling other Masons
Aug 08th 2007
198
RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons
Aug 08th 2007
200
wow. That's what that Hiram shit is for?
Aug 08th 2007
202
RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons
Aug 08th 2007
218
RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons
Aug 08th 2007
219
So here's a scenario:
Aug 08th 2007
203
Huh?
Aug 08th 2007
205
      A Mason and a Mason disagree on a public political issue.
Aug 08th 2007
207
           I'd assume the same way it would be handled if they weren't Masons.
Aug 08th 2007
209
                Okay.
Aug 08th 2007
211
Outside of ritual does the OES have the same heart/purpose?
Aug 08th 2007
216
I'd have to assume so.
Aug 08th 2007
217
well, they cant start an OES meeting without a Master Mason present
Aug 08th 2007
231
i'm a grown woman, i'm used to that...lol.
Aug 08th 2007
237
As a Mason, we are also Eastern Stars....
Aug 08th 2007
234
What (if anything) is the role of religion in masonry?
Aug 08th 2007
224
Religion has no place in Masonry.
Aug 08th 2007
228
      our lodge doesn't say In Jesus' name
Aug 08th 2007
232
      Nah, it's not in the ritual.
Aug 08th 2007
233
      *checks that off the list of possibilities*
Aug 08th 2007
235
      Werd.
Aug 08th 2007
236
      I have a book that says otherwise..................
Aug 08th 2007
284
           I have evidence that there's a treasure map on the back of...
Aug 08th 2007
290
           **tisk tisk**.
Aug 08th 2007
309
                Just because he's PRO MASON...
Aug 08th 2007
311
                     But shouldn't it be organized?
Aug 09th 2007
354
                          Shouldn't what be organized?
Aug 10th 2007
370
                               The belief systems within Freemasonry
Aug 10th 2007
376
                                    Belief in a supreme being you mean?
Aug 11th 2007
383
                                         EXACTLY!
Aug 14th 2007
404
                                              What's your point?
Aug 14th 2007
405
                                                   but you said earlier religon has no purpose
Aug 14th 2007
407
                                                        God exists beyond religion.
Aug 15th 2007
412
           you read the other book those guys wrote?
Aug 08th 2007
295
           Flynn...the Hiram Key is full of shit...
Aug 08th 2007
318
so if you do share the things that you shouldnt
Aug 08th 2007
240
They're already out in the public.
Aug 08th 2007
241
      so everything is out in the open yet it cant be shared?
Aug 08th 2007
242
           Yes.
Aug 08th 2007
243
                sounds like the life
Aug 08th 2007
245
                     Pretty much.
Aug 08th 2007
249
RE: I Will Tell You About Freemasonry.
Aug 08th 2007
246
Ok, ummmm...
Aug 08th 2007
248
      RE: Ok, ummmm...
Aug 08th 2007
250
      That thing about "good men"...
Aug 08th 2007
252
           whats the [hi]story behind the name
Aug 08th 2007
254
           Masons were just that, Masons...
Aug 08th 2007
256
                got ya
Aug 08th 2007
266
           So you just decide to separate yourself
Aug 08th 2007
257
           I'm free to choose who I fellowship with.
Aug 08th 2007
259
                But you can't ignore your "history"
Aug 08th 2007
262
                     You're right, I can't. And where did I try to?
Aug 08th 2007
264
                          I'm not saying that you're a bad dude
Aug 08th 2007
269
                               I know you're not saying that.
Aug 08th 2007
272
                                    Freemasonry is a branch of the Illuminati
Aug 08th 2007
277
                                         Freemasonry is also a secret society
Aug 08th 2007
280
                                         If it's so secret...
Aug 08th 2007
282
                                         Well I can say
Aug 14th 2007
409
                                         are you married?
Aug 08th 2007
286
                                              are you divorced?
Aug 14th 2007
408
                                         I understand the concept of the illuminati, yes.
Aug 08th 2007
281
                                              No, you're no different from my uncle
Aug 08th 2007
287
                                                   Oh...but you CAN present evidence of the Bohemian cats quickly?
Aug 08th 2007
289
                                                        What?
Aug 08th 2007
307
                                                             I know, you found evidence about Bohemian Grove...
Aug 08th 2007
310
           RE: That thing about "good men"...
Aug 20th 2007
423
      RE: Ok, ummmm...
Aug 08th 2007
258
           What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?
Aug 08th 2007
260
           RE: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?
Aug 08th 2007
268
                I'll ask again: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?
Aug 08th 2007
270
                WoW...
Aug 08th 2007
276
                They can NEVER support their points though.
Aug 08th 2007
278
                     looks like you can't either....
Aug 09th 2007
334
                          When you ask questions about the ritual, you're right.
Aug 09th 2007
337
                               RE: When you ask questions about the ritual, you're right.
Aug 20th 2007
422
                RE: I'll ask again: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?
Aug 08th 2007
279
                     so in other words, you have nothing....
Aug 08th 2007
285
                     but you're a JEW though!
Aug 09th 2007
335
                     Exactly.
Aug 08th 2007
288
                          hey, i can make a mean voodoo doll with some popsicle sticks...
Aug 08th 2007
291
                i'd love to see your evidence of this
Aug 08th 2007
283
                You called it. PERFECTLY.
Aug 08th 2007
292
                     Look either one of you can be in denial all you want
Aug 08th 2007
293
                     i've yet to see you actually PROVE anything
Aug 08th 2007
296
                     Well I didn't know you were actually involved in the disscussion
Aug 08th 2007
302
                     Huh?
Aug 08th 2007
298
                          Wow man this is prue denial
Aug 08th 2007
305
                               Dog, my point is...
Aug 08th 2007
308
                                    RE: Dog, my point is...
Aug 09th 2007
323
                                         RE: Dog, my point is...
Aug 09th 2007
336
                     it never fails
Aug 08th 2007
294
                          So you're looking to become 32nd or 33rd?
Aug 08th 2007
300
                          how far does it go, oh wise one?
Aug 08th 2007
303
                          I *plan* to go through it all.
Aug 08th 2007
301
                "Most masons that are bluelodge masons only reach the 3rd degree"
Aug 10th 2007
366
                RE: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?
Aug 20th 2007
421
           an Entered Apprentice? lmao!
Aug 09th 2007
339
                That speaks volumes, don't it?
Aug 09th 2007
342
does it's CE roots bother you as a EE?
Aug 08th 2007
306
It's not CE...
Aug 08th 2007
312
travel lightly
Aug 08th 2007
319
Don't worry about all that.
Aug 08th 2007
320
how have you benefitted ....socially/politically/financially
Aug 09th 2007
322
Mostly socially.
Aug 09th 2007
332
The Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and The Illuminati
Aug 09th 2007
324
That seems like a good history...
Aug 09th 2007
340
      On the contrary
Aug 09th 2007
362
           That article contradicts your conspiracy theory.
Aug 10th 2007
367
                No it doesn't
Aug 10th 2007
368
                     You reposted the same thing...
Aug 10th 2007
369
                          You're dodging the obvious
Aug 10th 2007
375
                               RE: You're dodging the obvious
Aug 11th 2007
379
                                    Ignorance is bliss
Aug 11th 2007
380
                                         You still didn't address it.
Aug 11th 2007
386
                                              RE: You still didn't address it.
Aug 14th 2007
406
                                                   Ok,i got you now.
Aug 15th 2007
413
RE: Ask me about Freemasonry.
Aug 09th 2007
326
AVDI VIDE TACE
Aug 14th 2007
410
      Matthew 6:1
Aug 15th 2007
414
Now about the Federal Reserve Note
Aug 09th 2007
327
I spoke on this earlier, and so did you....
Aug 09th 2007
328
For "media" balance
Aug 09th 2007
331
Gonna take some time to watch all those videos...
Aug 09th 2007
341
*rides Clyde through this post*
Aug 09th 2007
333
That's impossible.
Aug 09th 2007
344
What do you get out of it?
Aug 09th 2007
345
we get to look down at you folk
Aug 09th 2007
346
you get out of it what you put into it
Aug 09th 2007
347
I enjoy the fellowship, what I've been exposed to...
Aug 09th 2007
353
so how do most freemasons view
Aug 09th 2007
355
RE: so how do most freemasons view
Aug 15th 2007
416
      RE: so how do most freemasons view
Aug 20th 2007
424
Jesse Jackson (swipe)
Aug 09th 2007
356
Bill Clinton (swipe)
Aug 09th 2007
357
Do you have to have a relative as a mason to join
Aug 09th 2007
358
you do not have to be related to a Mason to join
Aug 09th 2007
359
      so how do you qualify?
Aug 09th 2007
360
           as the saying goes: 2B1ASK1
Aug 09th 2007
361
there's nothing particularly enlightening about this post, sad to say.
Aug 10th 2007
371
RE: there's nothing particularly enlightening about this post, sad to sa...
Aug 10th 2007
372
my uncle died as a worshipful master a couple of weeks ago
Aug 10th 2007
373
it's different by each state. i performed a funeral service last month
Aug 10th 2007
374
Nice post/thread.
Aug 10th 2007
378
What is the racial breakdown?
Aug 11th 2007
381
I have NO clue.
Aug 11th 2007
384
How does one become a mason?
Aug 11th 2007
382
Ask one.
Aug 11th 2007
385
I've got some serious questions...
Aug 12th 2007
387
RE: I've got some serious questions...
Aug 12th 2007
388
Why Doez Every Prezident Have Ta Be A Freemason?
Aug 12th 2007
389
Start at reply #13.
Aug 12th 2007
390
outside of "making good men better"....
Aug 12th 2007
391
That's all I've gotten.
Aug 12th 2007
392
Is it true black freemasonry is different from white freemasonry?
Aug 12th 2007
393
RE: Is it true black freemasonry is different from white freemasonry?
Aug 12th 2007
394
Would you acknowledge a female freemason?
Aug 12th 2007
395
No.
Aug 12th 2007
396
ROSEWOOD
Aug 13th 2007
397
RE: ROSEWOOD
Aug 14th 2007
398
I'll have to see the movie again, I don't remember what happened.
Aug 14th 2007
401
that whole sequence....if you recall...
Aug 14th 2007
403
Foe Hunnit!
Aug 14th 2007
399
doh!
Aug 14th 2007
400
How do you feel or what is your personal take on....
Aug 14th 2007
411
<CTRL> F
Aug 15th 2007
415
can an atheist be a freemason?
Aug 15th 2007
417
No.
Aug 15th 2007
418
RE: Ask me about Freemasonry.
Aug 19th 2007
419

Crucian1
Member since Oct 04th 2002
32178 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:05 PM

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1. "what are the options for women"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

how do you go about seeking someone out about it
are the dues stiff
how often do you guys meet

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
man up and take that pussy fam..
she in YO HOUSE and u letting her treat u like SoWhat man when she on ur couch kiss that bitch neck then try to get ur hands in them drawers, if she push u away evict that bitch.

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:07 PM

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3. "What do you mean "options?""
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

There's the OES and other bodies that are parallel to other houses.

I beleive in DC you can join w/o being a family member, other places not.

I'm not an OES, so I don't know much about it.

======
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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92696 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 06:11 AM

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321. "what's an OES?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


~~~~
If you bury your face in your tear-stained pillow and beg God to please send you your soul mate, may you not slur your words in such a way that they sound like "cell mate."
~~~~

y'all doth proclaimeth too mucho and shit ~ RAin

  

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RemyMartin
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:44 AM

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329. "Order of the Eastern Stars"
In response to Reply # 321


  

          

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SienaBlaze
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43. "its not cheap"
In response to Reply # 1


          

I think the chapter determines the dues for OES. The expensive part comes with the traveling you have to do



Siena Blaze
http://www.myspace.com/sienablaze

  

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JusticeSabre
Member since Aug 01st 2006
8595 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:07 PM

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2. "Why so secretive?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If you can even answer that on here...

http://i37.tinypic.com/2ngzku9.jpg

  

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RemyMartin
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6. "I make an "Ask me about Freemasonry" post..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

...that should tell you something about how secretive it is.

In my opinon the only thing that's "secret" is modes and methods of recognition.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:11 PM

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8. "also initiation"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

that's about it though, and the reasons make perfect sense to all not wearing tin foil hats

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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12. "Werd."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

======
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JusticeSabre
Member since Aug 01st 2006
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:20 PM

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25. "Yeah. Those things."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

What are "modes" and "methods of recognition" and what do they get you in the long run?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2ngzku9.jpg

  

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RemyMartin
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37. "They are ways to tell who's a Mason and who's not."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

And, what they get you is fellowship. That's about it.

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:24 PM

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152. "well..."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

...how do you tell who's a mason?


...what are the initiation practices consisting of?


...are you REALLY gonna answer these?

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 05:29 PM

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153. "RE: well..."
In response to Reply # 152
Wed Aug-08-07 05:52 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

>...how do you tell who's a mason?

By certain signs, tokens and words.

>...what are the initiation practices consisting of?

They consist of a ritual that displays a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, illustrated by symbols.

>...are you REALLY gonna answer these?

I just did.

Do better.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:47 PM

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157. "just popped in to say he just answered the HELL out of your questions..."
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

one of the most operative qualities of a Mason is "faith"

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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meccau
Member since Jul 16th 2006
296 posts
Mon Aug-20-07 12:34 AM

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420. "RE: just popped in to say he just answered the HELL out of your question..."
In response to Reply # 157


          

>one of the most operative qualities of a Mason is "faith"


actually its charity..........


Bro. Folley

Zion Lodge no 1. A.A.S.R

3rd degree.

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:24 PM

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177. "I couldn't put this any clearer"
In response to Reply # 153


  

          


>They consist of a ritual that displays a beautiful system of
>morality, veiled in allegory, illustrated by symbols.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:27 PM

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181. "I'm not taking credit for it."
In response to Reply # 177


  

          

That's an old old saying. It's in some rituals.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:32 PM

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187. "oh trust...I recognized it immediately"
In response to Reply # 181


  

          

that's why I said this was the perfect answer.

Most of them aren't one's we wrote...but ones we were taught.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
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230. "yeah, I know exactly where you got it from"
In response to Reply # 181


  

          

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 07:54 PM

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244. "Aight...since you want to get technical.."
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

What SPECIFIC signs do you look for and/or display when you are a mason and please give examples?

What SPECIFIC rituals compose the initiation process and please describe some factual activities? i.e. describe this "beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, illustrated by symbols."


DO BETTER!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 07:59 PM

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247. "RE: Aight...since you want to get technical.."
In response to Reply # 244


  

          

>What SPECIFIC signs do you look for and/or display when you
>are a mason and please give examples?

I look for a sign that's familiar to me as referring to Masonry. Most importantly, at the appropriate time and/or place.

>What SPECIFIC rituals compose the initiation process and
>please describe some factual activities? i.e. describe this
>"beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, illustrated
>by symbols."

The rituals pertaining to the first, second or third degrees.

>DO BETTER!

It's hard to trip me up when I know more than you. Remember that. **finger guns**

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:10 PM

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251. "LOL...thanks for being Victor Vagueness..."
In response to Reply # 247


  

          

...as always cats will NEVER give you a REAL answer..always some roundabout ish!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 08:13 PM

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253. "Define "real" answer?"
In response to Reply # 251
Wed Aug-08-07 08:16 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

I answered your questions honestly and truthfully. What more do you want?

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:28 PM

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263. "I'm glad that we both acknowledge the fact...."
In response to Reply # 253


  

          

..that there are still certain things that you simply won't and can't reveal. Just be grateful that I don't have access to a scanner right now.

Yet this is an alleged "ask me anything about freemasonry post"

GTFOHWATBS!

Seriously....Do Better!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:36 PM

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267. "LOL, you mad doggie?"
In response to Reply # 263


  

          


>..that there are still certain things that you simply won't
>and can't reveal.

Ummm...we established that fact in like the first 10 posts. Pay attention.

>Just be grateful that I don't have access to
>a scanner right now.

You don't need a scanner, I'm sure wahtever you have is readily available if you google correctly.

>Yet this is an alleged "ask me anything about freemasonry
>post"

Yes. It is an "ask me about freemasonry post" but, did I say, I will tell you anything about freemasonry? Nope. But, I did answer all your questions. So...

>GTFOHWATBS!

You ARE mad doggie. I'm sorry.

>Seriously....Do Better!

Awwww...poor boo boo.

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:41 PM

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271. "lol@boo boo..."
In response to Reply # 267


  

          

..carry on with your post though..

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 08:43 PM

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273. "Did you get anything out of it?"
In response to Reply # 271


  

          

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:30 PM

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297. "My perspective on freemasonry..."
In response to Reply # 273


  

          

..has remained the same from when I enter this post upon the time I leave.

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:32 PM

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299. "Were you open to change your perspective..."
In response to Reply # 297


  

          

...before you came in to this post?

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:09 AM

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325. "The only thing consistent with time is change...."
In response to Reply # 299


  

          

...therefore it would be deemed unwise for me to come in here and say that nothing would or could be learned.
Now,..had you provided intricate and specific answers to the questions posed and not some generalized answers that were taught to you if you were asked these questions provides the differential variation. I hope that sufficiently answered your inquiry.

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:45 AM

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330. "We already established that I can't."
In response to Reply # 325


  

          

So, don't put it on me.

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 08:10 AM

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338. "glad you accept defeat graciously...one last question though.."
In response to Reply # 330


  

          

...if there are 360 degrees in a circle...why the limimitation of 33 1/3?

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Thu Aug-09-07 08:15 AM

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343. "I have a friend of the family who's muslim who asked that same question...."
In response to Reply # 338


  

          

...and, I don't know the answer.

And, I have a question for you...where's the 1/3 come from? I only know of 33rd degree.

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 10:07 AM

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348. "*sneezes* BULLSH!T!!! *sneezes*"
In response to Reply # 343


  

          

riiiiiiigggghhhht...you mean to tell me that freemasonry is ALL about mathematics and you don't know the significance in the question above enough to have a valid answer? GTFOHWATDABS!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Thu Aug-09-07 10:56 AM

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349. "LOL, I can't even say I don't know?"
In response to Reply # 348


  

          

I said before I can't tell you, please respect the I don't know.

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Tue Aug-14-07 10:56 AM

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402. "^^^lied^^^"
In response to Reply # 349


  

          

...gotcha!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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alindenver
Member since Dec 03rd 2004
742 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:08 PM

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4. "RE: Ask me about Freemasonry."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

can you ask someone for an invite, or do you have to have a blood relative in it to join?

is there a minimum age to join?

"when's the last time you heard a funky diabetic?"

  

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RemyMartin
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7. "2B1ASK1"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

You have to ask.

If you don't know anyone, you could work that out too. You can go to the lodge and tell them you want more information. If they don't give it to you find the Grand Lodge in your state. But, make sure it's "official" and not just out to get your money.

Most places 18, some 21.

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mochalox
Member since Mar 16th 2004
41853 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:08 PM

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5. "why aren't more of you guys architects?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

?

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:11 PM

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9. "We aren't operative, we're speculative."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

What we build isn't visible, well...it is, but not in the way you're thinking.

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mochalox
Member since Mar 16th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:17 PM

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19. "yeah, I figured that. It just seems like the original masons built stuff"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

and those buildings last and last and last. They were definitly onto something.

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:19 PM

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23. "They did..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

...but, what today is made as well as it used to be?

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mochalox
Member since Mar 16th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:21 PM

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26. "nothing. But that's my point. How come they can't do like they used to?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Our nations' bridges, highrises, skyscrapers, etc need real masons in the game.

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:21 PM

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29. "Nah, not the same."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

We just need better construction. LOL.

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mochalox
Member since Mar 16th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:25 PM

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35. "but I've seen bridges here with masonic symbols on it that are eons"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

old and are sturdy as all get out...

I know you guys aren't literal builders anymore, but there's gotta be a way to integrate the knowledge your founders used...

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:12 PM

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10. "*nods*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ThaAnthology
Charter member
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11. "Why?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

www.anthologyfmn.com

Enter the Written World of Fahim Malik Nassar

The House of Caine (available)

Melancholoy Funk (available)

Tha Anthology (Words 2001-2003) Poetry inspired by OKP and Wash, DC
(available)

The Spook who sat by the Radio Poetry (av

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
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14. "Because."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

======
FLASH!!

  

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JUSTICE
Charter member
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13. "respond to this Pharoahe Monch quote:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"War goin off in your mind
No man is safe from
Its not a Game Boy about the PlayStation
Its +Resident Evil+ when every President's a mason

++++++++++++++++++++++++
myspace.com/sonnyphono
dlxsf.com

  

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RemyMartin
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15. "Every president's not a mason."
In response to Reply # 13
Wed Aug-08-07 01:14 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

And, all the one's that weren't didn't get killed.

I just came to the realization why there are Masons in powerful positions everywhere. If you're a "good" Mason, you'll be a good leader.

The question is, which follows which?

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Hitokiri
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:15 PM

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17. "Who wasn't?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

I've always heard that they all are.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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21. "A google search says the ones that were were:"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

01) George Washington
02) James Monroe
03) Andrew Jackson
04) James Polk
05) James Buchanan
06) Andrew Johnson
07) James Garfield
08) William McKinley (?)
09) Theodore Roosevelt
10) William Howard Taft
11) Warren G. Harding
12) Franklin D. Roosevelt
13) Harry S. Truman
14) (Lyndon B. Johnson)
15) Gerald R. Ford


So, that leaves another what...27/28 that weren't Masons.

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Hitokiri
Charter member
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27. "Yes but from what 'we' know of Freemasons"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

ya'll are supposed to keep that shit a secret.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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30. "Well, that's why I do these posts..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

...to educate "y'all"

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:23 PM

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136. "yeah but got frats too like skull & bone that fall under"
In response to Reply # 21


          

the "illuminati" umbrella w/ freemasons etc.




Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 at checkout

  

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RemyMartin
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166. "That's true..."
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

...but, it's not Freemasons.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
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Wed Aug-08-07 05:50 PM

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159. "How/when was Franklin D. a Mason..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

if anything, I was thinking he was the one who definitely WOULDN'T be...

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:16 PM

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173. "he didn't become wheelchair bound until later in life"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Yank
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208. "You're forgetting William Jefferson Clinton"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>01) George Washington
>02) James Monroe
>03) Andrew Jackson
>04) James Polk
>05) James Buchanan
>06) Andrew Johnson
>07) James Garfield
>08) William McKinley (?)
>09) Theodore Roosevelt
>10) William Howard Taft
>11) Warren G. Harding
>12) Franklin D. Roosevelt
>13) Harry S. Truman
>14) (Lyndon B. Johnson)
>15) Gerald R. Ford
>
>

  

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RemyMartin
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212. "He wasn't a Mason."
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

He was in the Demolay, but he wasn't a Mason.

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Yank
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213. "33rd deg"
In response to Reply # 212


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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214. "This is where you provide evidence."
In response to Reply # 213


  

          

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Yank
Charter member
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220. "RE: This is where you provide evidence."
In response to Reply # 214


  

          

"To you, Sovereign Instructors of Grade 33, we tell you: you have to repeat
to the brothers of inferior grades that we worship only one God to whom we
pray without superstition. It is we, Initiated in the Supreme Grade, that are to keep the real Masonic religion preserving pure the Lucifer doctrine"

- Albert Pike - (Illuminati, founder of the Ku Klux Klan)

  

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RemyMartin
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222. "1) Albert Pike was dead before Clinton was born..."
In response to Reply # 220
Wed Aug-08-07 07:28 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

...so, that doesn't prove your point.

2) I'm surprised it took so long for this line to come up.

What has "Lucifer" meant throughout the ages?

What does "lucifer" mean in this context?

Oh yes...here is the "You aren't high enough to know" argument we've been waiting for.

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Yank
Charter member
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223. "Jesse Jackson"
In response to Reply # 222


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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226. "Oh...you have nothing."
In response to Reply # 223


  

          

Got it.

**finger guns**

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Yank
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225. "Woodrow Wilson"
In response to Reply # 222


  

          

How's that Federal Reserve Act treating ya?

  

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RemyMartin
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227. "Federal Reserve is bigger than Masons."
In response to Reply # 225


  

          

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Mil
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24. "all but 30 of them."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

  

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Yank
Charter member
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206. "Kennedy was NOT a Mason"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>And, all the one's that weren't didn't get killed.
>

  

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RemyMartin
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210. "You really should pay attention."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

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Yank
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215. "I am"
In response to Reply # 210


  

          

but don't worry about me.

  

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Hitokiri
Charter member
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16. "Do you all want to run the world?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Or do you already do it?

What are the benefits of being a member?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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18. "Who doesn't want to run the world?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>Or do you already do it?

Inbox the Bilderberg Group.

>What are the benefits of being a member?

Really, the BIGGEST benefit I've seen is fellowship. That's when folx want to bootleg and get shit off the net or fake like they're a Mason I don't understand. Because I don't love it until I'm rapping w/ my brothers.

And, it's given me exposure to a lot of information that I would have never looked in to and given me some good experience in becoming a leader myself.

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Hitokiri
Charter member
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22. "I don't want to run the world"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          


>Really, the BIGGEST benefit I've seen is fellowship. That's
>when folx want to bootleg and get shit off the net or fake
>like they're a Mason I don't understand. Because I don't love
>it until I'm rapping w/ my brothers.
>
>And, it's given me exposure to a lot of information that I
>would have never looked in to and given me some good
>experience in becoming a leader myself.


What kind of information?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Mil
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:22 PM

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31. "^^^^^fishing for secrets lol"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

  

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RemyMartin
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34. "That was tongue in cheek."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>What kind of information?

It got me in to reading Plato, Aristotle and other philosophers. Got me more interested in learning about the 7 liberal arts and sciences. I read more opinions on how people apply Masonry to their lives and hte lives of others.

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Mil
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20. "whats the level of segregation in the urban centers (DC, for example?)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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RemyMartin
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28. "Well, there are a lot of Grand Lodges coming around now"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

...to afford what's called "Mutual Recognition" meaning that they are starting to heal the wound that was created because the historically white Masons weren't being very Masonic to begin with.

Here's a map: http://bessel.org/masrec/phamap.htm

Hmmm...the South is still bout it bout it.

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mochalox
Member since Mar 16th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:23 PM

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33. "*the bible belt tightens up another notch*"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

lol
the South ain't havin' it, I see...

  

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Mil
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38. "wow its like the whole Southeastern Conference and shit."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

but is mutual recognition more of a symbolic acknowledgment of one another's existence? or is there open networking between the two sides?

  

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RemyMartin
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41. "Well, it depends."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Like, I can't decide I want to go to an AF&AM lodge meeting(I'm Prince Hall) even though there's recognition in MD.

They attend some of our ceremonies and vice versa. Actually, on the 18th Prince Hall Masons are doing an entire ceremony for the AF&AM brothers.

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speedlaws07
Member since Aug 15th 2006
3236 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 02:00 PM

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48. "Can you explain a little the recognition aspect and what is the"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

difference between Prince Hall and AF & AM not historically
but in terms of practicing

under the influence 2k9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuWXCrp-p5M

  

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RemyMartin
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49. "Well, recognition is just that...."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

...the grand lodges "recognise" each other as Masons.

>difference between Prince Hall and AF & AM not historically
>but in terms of practicing

Well, there isn't much difference from what I understand. But, the differences there are are common even among Prince Halll lodges.

Our ritual is basically the same, but different from lodges in other jurisdictions(states) and the way we perform our ritual might be different from lodges in the same district(usually county).

So, the differences are miniscule and pretty much based on usages and practices. We ALL have the same landmarks and basic practice.

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ne_atl
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90. "WHOA!!!!"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>Like, I can't decide I want to go to an AF&AM lodge
>meeting(I'm Prince Hall) even though there's recognition in
>MD.
>
>They attend some of our ceremonies and vice versa. Actually,
>on the 18th Prince Hall Masons are doing an entire ceremony
>for the AF&AM brothers.

This is news to me. We stick strickly to PH.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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94. "Werd."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>This is news to me. We stick strickly to PH.

I believe that...Jawja.

Check the map in one of the other replies.

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ne_atl
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142. "It's funny though"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

I know white Masons, they acknowledge me as such. We can speak on the square and think nothing about it.

But just don't invite one to your home.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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149. "LOL, yeah, I mean I'm cordial to all Masons..."
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

...but, I don't hold Masonic intercourse w/ all Masons.

Clandestine is a subjective situation and if you're an upright man and Mason I'll come to you as such. If you're an upright man but uniformed, ignorant Mason...I'll deal with you differently...if you're not an upright man, then you aren't a Mason, so...

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:23 PM

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32. "you goin to the east anytime soon?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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36. "I pretty much got one foot over there now..."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

I'm in the West, but the cat in the East is just there to have someone. I'm doing a lot of the work now.

BTW, 459 is reopening up April 26th, I expect to see you there.

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:36 PM

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42. "Our lodge is planning a trip as we speak..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

we're trying to get as many lodges in the district as possible to participate. I'm in the west now as well. If I have my way I'll be there next year as well, but cats are tryin to push me east. I simply don't have the time to deal with all that, not this year anyway.

I told the lodge I knew one of the two candidates raised in boston in 04' and NOW I'm the damn point man for organizing this trip...me and my big fuckin mouth!

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:47 PM

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47. "Werd."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

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SammyJankis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
6358 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 01:33 PM

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39. "i thought you weren't supposed to talk about it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

___

And who are you; the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?

www.twitter.com/JayTeeDee

www.juwandickerson.com

  

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RemyMartin
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40. "That's not true."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

And, I dare say that Masons who DO go w/ that "I can't talk about it" do so because they can't talk about it.

Granted, some might be schooled not to, but anyone who knows anything about the craft knows what to talk about and where to draw the line.

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ne_atl
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"DING!"


  

          

>And, I dare say that Masons who DO go w/ that "I can't talk
>about it" do so because they can't talk about it.
>
>Granted, some might be schooled not to, but anyone who knows
>anything about the craft knows what to talk about and where to
>draw the line.

you think about it, most of this stuff can be found in most public libraries.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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104. "Barnes and Noble...internet."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

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The3rdOne
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:40 PM

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44. "shibboleth much?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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RemyMartin
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45. "Off."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

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thebrownhornet
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 01:46 PM

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46. "...like a mug."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

sheesh...

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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The3rdOne
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Wed Aug-08-07 05:20 PM

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151. "yall got the nut off tho.."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

LOL

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:09 PM

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50. "i had my first officer's meeting as Master last week"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it's still kinds weird being the boss of people old enough to be my father (or grandfather).

i'm starting to warm to the responsibility, though it is still a little intimidating. next week is our lodge picnic, which is my first official function as master.

have you given any thoughts towards your plans once you're in the east?

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:15 PM

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51. "Not really."
In response to Reply # 50
Wed Aug-08-07 02:16 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

But, the current master says, "It's up to you, I'm just going to set things up for you next year. Waht you wanna do is what I'll do."

I just gotta get through school(Next Tuesday) and i can put the time in I need to to start building a trestle board.

======
FLASH!!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:23 PM

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53. "my board is all screwy b/c of our meeting dates"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

we meet the first monday of the month, so sept is cancelled for labor day, and our oct meeting is scheduled to be the official visit from the DDGM. I'm trying to get that changed though.

my big ambitious goal though is a Middle Chamber course, which i think we've spoken about previously.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:27 PM

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56. "When ours falls on a holiday..."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

...we get a dispensation to move it to another date.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:32 PM

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64. "we can do that too, BUT"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

the building we meet in has scheduled meetings all month. typically, we will look for a "fifth day" - ie, there are 5 wednesdays, thursdays, and fridays in august, and those are days when there are no scheduled meetings, since not every month will have the same 5th days.

however, september does not have any 5th days during the week this year, so we are kinda screwed.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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thebrownhornet
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52. "I'm dreading it..."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

but I won't be able to run for long. I have at least one more year in the west before I'm the only likely candidate. I'm not anxious to inherit the bullshit that comes with being WM in our lodge just yet.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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54. "i never wanted to punch a 90 year old in the face before becoming WM"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

this one guy in the lodge is the most selfish bastard i know, and he embarrassed the lodge (and me, by extension) at a masonic funeral service last month. i was FUMING, and had to be talked down by the secretary.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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58. "Wow...I now see the benefits of a small lodge."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

LOL

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:35 PM

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68. "this IS a relatively small lodge"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

we have 80 something dues paying members, and like 15-20 active members. for our district, that's on the small side.

dude asked me for some speaking time at the funeral. he's old, the guy who passed was old, i figured he wanted to talk about his friend and the 40 years they knew each other as brothers.

this motherfucker starts talking about the brotherhood fund, and how the deceased was a frequent contributor, and basically soliciting for a donation from the family right there as they were trying to honor their father.

i was FLOORED. it was probably the most classless thing i've ever witnessed, in or outside of a lodge.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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101. "Wow."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

Our paid is 26, active...about 12...come to every meeting...about 7.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:23 PM

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113. "my district is in Manhattan, so the numbers are a little skewed, lol"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Hitokiri
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:27 PM

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55. "What is the mission or goal of the organization?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

n/m

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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57. "To Make Good Men Better..."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

...they say.

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Hitokiri
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:39 PM

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71. "What are the methods they use to achieve this goal?"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

n/m

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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72. "That's the thing..."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

...Freemasonry just exposes you to things. Just like anything else it's up to you to make it "work" you know?

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Hitokiri
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73. "What does that mean?"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

"Exposes you to things..." Ya'll have weekly book club meetings on the writings Socrates and Plato?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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79. "Ha, I wish we did."
In response to Reply # 73
Wed Aug-08-07 02:55 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

I'm thinking about trying to set that up though.

Like, when we talking about things, 7 liberal arts and sciences, cardinal virtues, I searched those things out and found references to them in The Republic and Aristotle's Ethics. The more I read, the more was referenced in our lectures and such.

Then there's the Bible, Shakespeare and many other things.

Basically what was once the standard, classical Liberal Arts education.

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Hitokiri
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109. "But ya'll have meetings and such obviously..."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

So what happens there? Where are they held and how often? Can the general public attend? What happens if you miss a meeting?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:26 PM

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115. "RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously..."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>So what happens there?

We mostly handle business. Correspondence, bills, etc. We're SUPPOSED to have some sort of lesson but that doesn't always happen.

>Where are they held and how often?

In Maryland we have to meet twice a month, ours are on 2nd and 4th Mondays.

>Can the general public attend?

No.

>What happens if you miss a meeting?

Nothing, really. But because I'm an officer I try not to miss any. If a member DOES have to miss a meeting for reason of job/family it's OK. Masonry shouldn't interfere with anything else you have to do.

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Hitokiri
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:42 PM

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122. "RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously..."
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

How long do meeting last?
And who is supposed to be giving these lessons?
How is the organization funded?
Can you put Freemason on a resume?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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123. "RE: But ya'll have meetings and such obviously..."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

>How long do meeting last?

Around 2 hours.

>And who is supposed to be giving these lessons?

Any brother in the lodge can.

>How is the organization funded?

Like most oranizations, dues and fundraising.

>Can you put Freemason on a resume?

I put it in organizations/memberships.

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Hitokiri
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132. "Wait wait"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

What kind of fundraising? Like Freemason bake sales or like grants and whatnot? Doesn't it hurt that most people see you guys as an evil underground secret society? Shit, I'm scared of ya'll.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:38 PM

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144. "Yep..."
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

>What kind of fundraising? Like Freemason bake sales or like
>grants and whatnot?

We have raffles(WHICH I FUCKING HATE!!!) carwashes, parties, etc, etc. Fundraisers.

>Doesn't it hurt that most people see you
>guys as an evil underground secret society? Shit, I'm scared
>of ya'll.

Naw. I mean, I'm sure it does, but most folx are ignorant(not the bad ignorant) to what we are. They know a Mason, or at least know of one.

And, posts like this, and discussion like this outside the internets, I hope shed a lil light on our non-evilness.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:45 PM

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74. "it's also a little Karate Kid-like"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

how Mr. Miyagi had him painting the house and waxing the floors, and he later realized that wax on, wax off was also part of the training.

as an active mason, you'll be on committees, you'll make speeches in front of a lodge room full of people, you'll be in charge of making executive decisions and all that stuff. then, suddenly, you have to make a presentation at work, and you're not as nervous because you've had to do stuff like this before in lodge.

i'm a much more confident speaker, and am better at making decisions that affect other people because of my work in masonry. additionally, meeting brothers from other lodges and socializing has made me a better networker.

that's one of the great things about masonry, is that sometimes you dont even REALIZE how it is impacting you.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:56 PM

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80. "Exactly."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

Very well put.

"Man, why I gotta do this bullshit."

**2 years later**

Ohhhhh...

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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99. "m'sayin. if you can learn degree work, presentations aint shit."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Raina
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:28 PM

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59. "are there any parallels to alchemy in freemasonry?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



from what I know (which isn't hardly anything) I'd say yes, but would like your opinion

~!~




Chocolate Rain
'Flippin cars in France the other night
Chocolate Rain
Cleans the sewers out beneath Mumbai

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:30 PM

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61. "I don't know much about alchemy..."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

...but, I'd say most things meetaphysical have a lot of common threads.

I'd say NGE has parallels.

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Raina
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69. "you should do a little side research"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

true alchemy (not the chemistry set and science project alchemy) is in the same vein.

to make good men better, to find the gold among the soot.

It's been said that most therapists practice alchemy whether they are aware of it or not.


~!~




Chocolate Rain
'Flippin cars in France the other night
Chocolate Rain
Cleans the sewers out beneath Mumbai

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:01 PM

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84. "Well, there is so much side research..."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

...that it's impossible to get through it all, really.

Every time I follow a "lead" all I find is more and more leads. Shit's bananas.

That's why I need to hurry up and get independently wealthy so I can study all day.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:11 PM

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169. "when Im decked in my Black and Whites..."
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

my wife looks at me with a straight face and says "Oh...you got a meeting with the Eagle Scouts tonight?"

Fucking Eagle Scouts, man.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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Raina
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221. "lolol"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          


~!~




Chocolate Rain
'Flippin cars in France the other night
Chocolate Rain
Cleans the sewers out beneath Mumbai

  

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13Rose
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:51 PM

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313. ">I'd say NGE has parallels."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

might you explain sir?

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
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Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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RemyMartin
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315. "Now, I don't know a lot about NGE...."
In response to Reply # 313


  

          

...but, I was rapping w/ Wise a while back and we talking about it and found some similarities. I don't remember exactly what it was. Maybe someone well versed in both can break it down for you.

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13Rose
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377. "cool"
In response to Reply # 315


  

          

I admire your restraint to say when you don't know enough of both to discuss. I agree with your assessment that both are similar. As my father would say many paths to the same truth. Both systems of study teaches one to be a man upright who stands on the square (we 5 guys stand on the square as well).

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
www.debunkthemyth.org
http://dashaunworld.wordpress.com/
www.mothergreen.com

Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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Trigonomik
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:29 PM

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60. "do they still have that org/program for the youth?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Knights of P?

--------------------------------------
Vinyl Appreciation + Vinyl Cover Art Appreciation = www.flwrpt.com/blog

  

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RemyMartin
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62. "Yerp."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

We're trying to get ours active again right now.

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Trigonomik
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:00 PM

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83. "RE: Yerp."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

cool...
I was just about to ask how being a member of that program impacts your chances of membership later on in life. I saw NE's reply below, but is it pretty much like that across the board? and what if one wasnt always active with that program, does it still give you a leg up on entry?

--------------------------------------
Vinyl Appreciation + Vinyl Cover Art Appreciation = www.flwrpt.com/blog

  

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RemyMartin
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89. "My opinion is..."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

...you were a boy then, you're a man now. Who you are today is what matters.

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Trigonomik
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:13 PM

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130. "I can dig that. n/m"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

--------------------------------------
Vinyl Appreciation + Vinyl Cover Art Appreciation = www.flwrpt.com/blog

  

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ne_atl
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77. "We have Khedive in Alabama"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

Where 1st degree is learned and tought. Kids can join at age 15 and can become Masons at age 17.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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Omar_Medina
Member since Aug 31st 2005
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:31 PM

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63. "Difference between York and Scottish rite?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Someday, I wanna find out what it feels like to post on a real message board

  

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Mil
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65. "The accent."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          


____________________________
too weird to live, too rare to die

  

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thebrownhornet
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66. "haha"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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67. "I don't know the difference..."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

...but they are both concordant bodies of Freemasonry. I'm in neither of those bodies.

The Scottish is headed by the Supreme Council, 33rd degree Masons, who they say "run" masonry. but, I don't know.

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mermaid
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:11 PM

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93. "so you're still a master mason?"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i got my season tickets to watch my favorite team...where are yours?

  

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RemyMartin
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96. "Always a Master Mason."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

There's no more degrees in Craft Masonry, really. Those are seperate bodies that require you to be a Master Mason before you join. If you aren't current(paid your dues) in your Master Mason(Blue) lodge, you lose your membership in whatever else you're a member of.

======
FLASH!!

  

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mermaid
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:14 PM

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97. "yeah i know. i'm a star. i just thought you had moved up."
In response to Reply # 96
Wed Aug-08-07 03:15 PM by mermaid

  

          

you know what i mean, right.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i got my season tickets to watch my favorite team...where are yours?

  

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RemyMartin
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102. "Werd."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

I'm in no rush. I still have a lot on my plate in the Blue Lodge. Plus, I'm in school. Once I finish school I'll travel more.

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mermaid
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110. "yeah...well being broke is my excuse."
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

nah i'm kidding. i'm not very active though. i said i was gonna get back active...it just takes a lot of your time if you're doing it the right way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i got my season tickets to watch my favorite team...where are yours?

  

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RemyMartin
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112. "That's the damn truth."
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

>it just takes a lot of your time if
>you're doing it the right way.

If you're willing to work...they will work you.

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mermaid
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155. "4sho"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i got my season tickets to watch my favorite team...where are yours?

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:36 PM

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70. "different charters"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ne_atl
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75. "*stands on the square*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

when were you born?
where were you born?
have any brothers, what's there names?


just f'n with ya. What's up square!?!

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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78. "I was born on Castle William Island."
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

Aint many that can say that, do it be?

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ne_atl
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95. "off the square"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

when (year) did you join? I've been a 3rd degree for 17 years now, only active for 11.

June 14, 1990 I entered the doors at 4pm (scared out of my mind!!!!) and walked out at 2am the next morning with all 3 degrees achieved. 7 of us entered only 5 completed all 3. The other 2 had to wait 4 months to get thier 3rd.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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98. "2004"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          


>June 14, 1990 I entered the doors at 4pm (scared out of my
>mind!!!!) and walked out at 2am the next morning with all 3
>degrees achieved. 7 of us entered only 5 completed all 3. The
>other 2 had to wait 4 months to get thier 3rd.

I went to my first induction this weekend...and I was HIGHLY disappointed. It took about 3 hours and the work was piss poor. They even gave the word wrong...twice. And this was the Grand Lecturer's staff. What the hell?

It took me about 6 months, but I was waiting 2 months for the reenactment in Boston.

======
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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:22 PM

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111. "I was also a member of a one-day class, but NY did it different"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

the one-day class was a one time only thing, the first time in 220 years it had been done in NY.

since over 1,000 candidates showed up at Grand Lodge, what they did was have one proxy go through all three degrees. in retrospect i kinda feel gipped that i didnt get to do it all myself.

we did the reverse on the time thing though. instead of having everyone be there late, we had to be there at 6 AM, and it lasted into the afternoon.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Jamal_Yall
Charter member
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76. "*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


__________________________
http://malkthewalk.blogspot.com

  

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InKast
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Wed Aug-08-07 02:57 PM

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81. "have you performed the secret blood rituals yet?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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RemyMartin
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82. "I had to fuck my cousin."
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

======
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InKast
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86. "huh, I was talking about the blood oath that masons have to do"
In response to Reply # 82


          

have you done that yet?

  

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RemyMartin
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88. "What blood oath that Masons have to do?"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

You seemed more enlightened than I. Please share.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:17 PM

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105. "*elbows on table, fists under chin* enlighten me, oh wise one"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

my favorite part of this lesson is going to be when I get told that i'm "not high up enough" in the chain to know about the knowledge he is dropping. that's always my favorite.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:21 PM

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108. "Right."
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

======
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thebrownhornet
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124. "I'm all ears..."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

...

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:18 PM

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133. "in case he doesnt come back, i asked him in his other thread, and"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

apparently, we sign our names in blood, put it in an envelope, and then burn the envelope.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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cipha_2
Member since Nov 01st 2004
8277 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:23 PM

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135. "know what, fuck it, I'm admitting that we do that"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

I mean this dude obviously knows the truth.

*


"D is for what I serve, I don't be on no curb, she aint no junky neither, I ain't no dope dealer" - 3000

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:27 PM

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138. "i still get stigmata from time to time in my index finger"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

it's really annoying on dates

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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143. "My asshole was bleeding..."
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

...but...**sniffle** Nevermind!!

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
19839 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 10:39 PM

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317. "haha that's some twisted rehash of the mob's making ceremony"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

they prick your finger, and bleed on and burn a picture of a saint in your hands

  

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gizzy_womack
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363. "LOL. yeah right."
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

i wonder how that type of stuff even gets started.

-------------



"I asked GOD to help me fly away, and if not, then please keep your eye on me"

I'm just your average everyday stockbroker.

Who is John Galt??

  

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cipha_2
Member since Nov 01st 2004
8277 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:37 PM

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119. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

dis nigga said blood rituals.

*


"D is for what I serve, I don't be on no curb, she aint no junky neither, I ain't no dope dealer" - 3000

  

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poetx
Charter member
58865 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:01 PM

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85. "how many levels till you can do a movie w/ nick cage?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

** do y'all really be rocking water buffalo hats?

** have you sat in on any good world domination plots lately




peace & blessings,

x.

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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RemyMartin
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87. "RE: how many levels till you can do a movie w/ nick cage?"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

I did one already. **DUN DUN DUNNNN!!!!**

>** do y'all really be rocking water buffalo hats?

Only on 4th solstice.

>** have you sat in on any good world domination plots lately

Why do you think my post count is so high?

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:26 PM

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114. "already in the can"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

>** do y'all really be rocking water buffalo hats?

I GET TO WEAR A TOPHAT THIS YEAR CAUSE I'M THE BOSS!!! WOOOOOOO (c) White People

>** have you sat in on any good world domination plots lately


son, i'm a white, jewish, freemason. who do you think calls the meetings to order?

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:53 PM

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201. "lol AND HE WORKS IN MEDIA. Go figure. I see you, Gator."
In response to Reply # 114


  

          


R.I.P American Media Integrity
Blog: www.abenghorn.net/Heat
Myspace: www.myspace.com/abenghorn
Crew: www.myspace.com/northernarcatl

  

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KayDee
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Wed Aug-08-07 03:09 PM

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91. "have you been to the lodge in philly yet?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i was a KoP but it really wasn't for me....i have fun @ the ES functions my moms throws (when she invites the brothers).

but yeah, have you been to the prince hall lodge?

  

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RemyMartin
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92. "Nah, I've been saying I was gonna go to Philly."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

Those cats come to DC a lot I hear. I need to make that travel.

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KayDee
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25731 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:15 PM

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100. "i can let you know when the next event is, if you like"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

but i'm sure you can find that out as well.....

  

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RemyMartin
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103. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>but i'm sure you can find that out as well.....

I'm sure I can.

But, lemme know what you know.

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
19839 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:20 PM

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106. "who controls the British crown? who keeps the Metric system down?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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RemyMartin
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107. "We do."
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

WE DOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:28 PM

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116. "when i got to meetings, that's my away message, lol"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Jamal_Yall
Charter member
32094 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:33 PM

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117. "that's the punchline of all my Masonry jokes at work."
In response to Reply # 116


  

          


__________________________
http://malkthewalk.blogspot.com

  

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unity
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7184 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:33 PM

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118. "with regard to the 7 liberal arts and sciences"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

how is the history of this conveyed currently? are its roots traced back to greece alone, or is there credit given to origins in egypt/nubia?

---
THE FAM:
http://www.marka27.com
http://www.biz20.biz
http://www.myspace.com/blackoutboston
http://www.myspace.com/indigginus

*CLIMATE CRISIS: reduce your impact!*
http://www.climatecrisis.net/takeaction/whatyoucando/index.html

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:39 PM

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120. "If I recall correctly..."
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

...there's no reference to origin.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:40 PM

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121. "much of masonry's origins are traced to King Solomon's Temple"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

so it's not what i would call greek-centric.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:10 PM

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129. "yep"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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alindenver
Member since Dec 03rd 2004
742 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 03:59 PM

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125. "RE: Ask me about Freemasonry."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

are the masons purely secular, or is there a tie in with Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.?

"when's the last time you heard a funky diabetic?"

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:02 PM

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126. "Masonry is not affiliated with any religion"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

the only requirement is a belief in the existence of a supreme being and in the immortality of the soul.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
18874 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:21 PM

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134. "I argue with people about this all the time"
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

>the only requirement is a belief in the existence of a
>supreme being and in the immortality of the soul.

My WM is a pastor of a Methodist church and he believes you have to be a Christian. He's made attempts to black ball people but failed.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:25 PM

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137. "no disrespect, but your WM is dead wrong."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

i am a standing example of that, as are some Muslim brothers i know.

in fact, christianity was anti-masonic for a long time (still kinda are) because of certain masonic teachings.

nowhere in masonic ritual does it mention christianity. in fact, various parts of degree work specifically state that we do not discriminate based on religion, creed, or anything else like that

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
18874 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:11 PM

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150. "none taken. I don't like the mans narrowminded thoughts at all"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>i am a standing example of that, as are some Muslim brothers
>i know.
>

When I went to college, majority of the Masons on the yard were Muslims. My eyes were opened then

>in fact, christianity was anti-masonic for a long time (still
>kinda are) because of certain masonic teachings.

I always bring up the argument that Masons pre-dates Christ. You think that means anything to a man of the church? I can show him text that out dates everything in the New Test, but you think that helps?
Folks who know me as a Mason know not to approach me on the sqaure on some "test my knowledge" shit. Between my moms OES books, my step dads books and the 7 I collected over the years, I think know my craft but people will always try to test me because of my age.

>
>nowhere in masonic ritual does it mention christianity. in
>fact, various parts of degree work specifically state that we
>do not discriminate based on religion, creed, or anything else
>like that

preaching to the choir sir

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:35 PM

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141. "We have a Muslim brother in my lodge that was raised by a Jew..."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

...from AF&AM.

======
FLASH!!

  

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hilfger21
Member since Dec 05th 2005
779 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:09 PM

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127. "so do you guys work in conjunction with the Crab People???"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

just wondering....

--------------------------------------

http://www.last.fm/user/hilfger21

"we venture through the streets in search of funky beats
extensive is the travels and it's heavy on the sneaks"

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:10 PM

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128. "yeah, they are an offshoot of the Shriners"
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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hilfger21
Member since Dec 05th 2005
779 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:14 PM

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131. "I knew it!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

--------------------------------------

http://www.last.fm/user/hilfger21

"we venture through the streets in search of funky beats
extensive is the travels and it's heavy on the sneaks"

  

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J_Sun
Charter member
33508 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:32 PM

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139. "I read this whole post and still feel like I know nothing about it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's intriguing tho... my new grandfather-in-law is a 33rd degree Mason. Once I know him a little better, after we move out there, I wanna have some conversations with him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DROkayplayer: I'm a Professional Weed Smoker. Not because of how MUCH weed I smoke, but because of how WELL I smoke it.

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 04:34 PM

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140. "LOL, I mean, it's hard to "know" anything from the outside."
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

We try to share but the volume of what you can no is so huge a post won't be able to capture it.

I was told early on that if anyone tells you they know everything about Masonry, they're lying.

BUt, the only way to learn is to ask questions. Well, I should say the BEST way. YOu can do your own research, but I don't think you'll get much out of it w/o a guide.

======
FLASH!!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:38 PM

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145. "what Remy said.... is there something specific you're looking to know?"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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J_Sun
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:39 PM

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146. "that's just it, I don't know what to ask either. lol"
In response to Reply # 145


  

          


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DROkayplayer: I'm a Professional Weed Smoker. Not because of how MUCH weed I smoke, but because of how WELL I smoke it.

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:40 PM

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147. "LOL, that's what I figured."
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

If you dont know anything, it's hard to ask questions.

Holla at your grandfather.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 04:40 PM

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148. "hehe, kinda tough to help you there"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

basically, it's a fraternity.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
2477 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:41 PM

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154. "Here are some questions:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

How come I never see anyone going in our out of the Mason buildings? Like, EVER?

Once you are one, can you ever not be one?

Would it be beneficial for someone that's always been skeptical of "secretive" organizations to look into it?

Why the big-ass building downtown? Wtf goes on in there that they need that big-ass building?

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 05:45 PM

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156. "RE: Here are some questions:"
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

>How come I never see anyone going in our out of the Mason
>buildings? Like, EVER?

LOL, because you're there at the wrong time.

>Once you are one, can you ever not be one?

Yes.

>Would it be beneficial for someone that's always been
>skeptical of "secretive" organizations to look into it?

I was skeptical too, everyone's skeptical. Part of the allure I assume is you don't know what it's all about.

>Why the big-ass building downtown? Wtf goes on in there that
>they need that big-ass building?

LOL, probably several meeting rooms, offices, library and some more shit.

======
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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
2477 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:52 PM

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161. "mo questions."
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

>Once you are one, can you ever not be one?
>
>Yes.

Without DYING? lol Seriously, what would that entail?

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 05:56 PM

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162. "RE: mo questions."
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

>>Once you are one, can you ever not be one?
>>
>>Yes.
>
>Without DYING? lol Seriously, what would that entail?

You can get expelled, suspended or just stop paying dues. Some in history have denounced it and turned against it.

I mean, you will still be a Mason, but you won't be a MASON. Some say you're a "Mason" before you're a Mason...that's why you become a Mason.

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ne_atl
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:10 PM

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168. "just stop showing up or"
In response to Reply # 161
Wed Aug-08-07 06:11 PM by ne_atl

  

          

do what I did; Ask for your walking papers from your current lodge to seek another lodge and just never join another. My lodge is in Bama and I wanted to get in one here in ATL. GA age laws were different so I had to wait unitl I was of age (even though i was ALREADY a mason). I gave up after being rejected by one certain lodge here.
It has been stated that "Once one, always one" but if your not apart of a lodge can you really call yourself one. I sometimes attend 2 lodges here and the one back in Bama every blue moon I go back, but none as a member. Upon my exit from my lodge, I received papers to travel so "travel" is what I do.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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soulgyal
Member since Nov 09th 2003
40663 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:48 PM

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158. "So why don't ya'll try to make bad men good..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

all into this makin' good men better sounds like "lets make the well-off better-off," or some craziness like dat.

<------------ There's only one way to find out...

http://www.liligi.com
http://lilcreepysmiley.blogspot.com/ (LAST UPDATED: AUGUST 9, 2009)

*****
<3 u Mom: Sep. 3, 1960 -May 1, 2006

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 05:51 PM

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160. "Ok, let's go down this path:"
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

Do you date what you consider "bad" men?

Why, or why not?

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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
2477 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:25 PM

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179. "welp, that might be the quickest chess game I've ever seen."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:32 PM

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186. "LOL, I think she's just occupied elsewhere."
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

One move mate? that's unpossible!

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soulgyal
Member since Nov 09th 2003
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Thu Aug-09-07 12:45 PM

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350. "I would hope not. And if I do, I don't go lookin' for em.."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

Why would I date a bad man?


Which is my point again...Why help folx who already got when you could help those who don't?

<------------ There's only one way to find out...

http://www.liligi.com
http://lilcreepysmiley.blogspot.com/ (LAST UPDATED: AUGUST 9, 2009)

*****
<3 u Mom: Sep. 3, 1960 -May 1, 2006

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 12:52 PM

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351. "for the same reason that you don't date bad men"
In response to Reply # 350


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 12:52 PM

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352. "RE: I would hope not. And if I do, I don't go lookin' for em.."
In response to Reply # 350


  

          

>Why would I date a bad man?

Why would we knowingly accept "bad" men?

>Which is my point again...Why help folx who already got when
>you could help those who don't?

Why don't you date bad men then try to make them better?

And, they don't got...they just have the potential and worthiness to get.

Even when they're in, they don't just "get" they gotta go get.

And, being as you have to come to Masonry of your own free will and accord those "bad" men who really understand the institution wouldn't be interested. But, as we discussed in other replies sometimes bad men get it. We don't actively "recruit" anyone, so...that's the majority of the reason right there.

We're not in the business of making bad men acceptable, we make good men better.

Every organization SHOULD have standards for their members. We're no different in that regard.

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gizzy_womack
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Fri Aug-10-07 12:14 AM

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364. "it actually has nothing to do with what you "got""
In response to Reply # 350


  

          

what you have is irrelevant. who you are is.

-------------



"I asked GOD to help me fly away, and if not, then please keep your eye on me"

I'm just your average everyday stockbroker.

Who is John Galt??

  

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gizzy_womack
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Fri Aug-10-07 12:14 AM

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365. "it actually has nothing to do with what you "got""
In response to Reply # 350


  

          

what you have is irrelevant. who you are is what's relevant.

-------------



"I asked GOD to help me fly away, and if not, then please keep your eye on me"

I'm just your average everyday stockbroker.

Who is John Galt??

  

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thebrownhornet
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8016 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:04 PM

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163. "cuz thats what prisons are for?"
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

the only prerequisits to be a mason is that a man is free born, of good repute, and that he come well recomended and properly vouched for by another mason. It has nothing to do with how "well off" you are.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:08 PM

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167. "She was comparing, I don't think she was saying Masons are well off."
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

Although in some lodges that DOES help and that's all they want, $$$$.

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:22 PM

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175. "oops, my bad..."
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

all I heard was teeth suckin and neck rollin as I read that shit.

"...or some craziness like that"

yeah, aaight. cool

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:04 PM

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164. "To the Masons on this site....tell me your compass?"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Aug-08-07 06:18 PM by DVS

  

          

Me? SouthEAST, then west...then southeast again.
(I deserve to be shot...HOW did I fuck this up? LOL)

I'm really interested in learning the rest of my directions before I ever head East. I went West way too young, and almost ended up jaded and disillusioned.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:06 PM

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165. "I was like...huh?"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

I kinda still don't get it. We don't use that terminology, but tell me what this means to you:

Northeast

Southwest

South

now

West

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:15 PM

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172. "i was trying to say what I was trying to say w/o saying it..."
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

and you answered perfectly.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:14 PM

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171. "Started out in the north..."
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

then I travelled to the southwest, did a stint down south, then headed west where I currently reside. I'm not really feelin the east coast right now tho.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:21 PM

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174. "I look east like "Man...I COULD do it..."
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

but it'd be SO hard with my schedule...and honestly? I still feel like a baby. I need to travel thru the houses 1st...AT LEAST further than 3rd.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:26 PM

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180. "Why?"
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

>I need to travel thru the houses 1st...AT
>LEAST further than 3rd.

EVERYTHING you need is in the blue house. I'm gonna hartily disagree w/ that statement.

I'll agree w/ the take your time, but not the other houses. I'm waiting to pass the chair before I go into any other houses. I don't need more meetings and more dues. Boo that shit.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:30 PM

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184. "i dunno man..."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

just like anything, I like to study. I'm very observative. I've seen enough of the East to know that I could do it.

Sitting in my seat (SouthEast)...I also see the headaches...because when shit goes down in the East...I'M the 1ST phone call that gets made...and I'm normally the last one to get off the phone, if you follow me.

Also, I still haven't seen a lodge functioning outside of dispensation. It's enough to make me want to travel...but I'm a firm believer that the foundation we are building will last if we stay dilligent.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:31 PM

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185. "Explain how the other houses will prepare you for the East."
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

That's what I don't get.

I understand the enormity of that seat, trust. But, I don't see how you don't have enough in the Blue to get what you need.

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:34 PM

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189. "It's not really a matter of preparation, Remy"
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

if anything...the seat that I'm in has one of the best bird's eye views of the workings of the East...

It's more familiarity. I know the length of my cabletow...I just want to test it's limits a bit. Purely for personal comfort.

I've always been like that, tho...

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:38 PM

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193. "Oh, I know that."
In response to Reply # 189


  

          

I feel you.

I'll just say that if you do go S then W you SHOULD get what you need.

I would rather not do it next year, actually, but...I got in line so...here I be.

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universole
Member since Sep 21st 2003
4388 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:18 PM

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255. "RE: i dunno man..."
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

...because when shit goes down in the East...I'M the
>1ST phone call that gets made...and I'm normally the last one
>to get off the phone, if you follow me.
>


what shit goes down?

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/violinsinhiphop

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:25 PM

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261. "Could be anything."
In response to Reply # 255


  

          

A death, a brother in need, confusion.

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universole
Member since Sep 21st 2003
4388 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:52 PM

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274. "RE: Could be anything."
In response to Reply # 261


  

          

so you guys arent making earth shaking decisions.

things that effect my life?

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/violinsinhiphop

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:53 PM

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275. "I don't know..."
In response to Reply # 274


  

          

...are we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb1rl8H_odU

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universole
Member since Sep 21st 2003
4388 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:39 PM

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304. "RE: I don't know..."
In response to Reply # 275


  

          

are you?

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/violinsinhiphop

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:52 PM

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314. "Am I?"
In response to Reply # 304


  

          

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universole
Member since Sep 21st 2003
4388 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 10:33 PM

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316. "RE: Am I?"
In response to Reply # 314


  

          

STOP! Your supposed to be answering not asking.

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/violinsinhiphop

  

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thebrownhornet
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8016 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:38 PM

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194. "exactly..."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

I wouldn't recommend other houses UNTIL your blue house knowledge is TIGHT. Its all progressive and the better you know 1st three degrees the more sense the later one make. So I hear...lol

I'm thinking about going Consistory this fall. One thing I have learned is that the higher up you go, so rises the networking potential.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:40 PM

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197. "Bamas just wanna do it to do it...."
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

...or to get to the Shrine.

Muphukkin FCs tawnbout what Shrine they're going to join. The hell?

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:29 PM

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183. "same here..."
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

ritualistically I'm pretty sure I could hold it down, its all the "other" stuff that would be a stretch like all the damn MEETINGS, paperwork, and keeping up with the general goings on in and bout the lodge. I got too much on my plate as it is now.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:24 PM

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176. "we dont use that terminology either, but if i understand right, i went"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

Northeast (SD)
South (JW)
West (SW)
East (WM)

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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ne_atl
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:35 PM

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190. "just South and West"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

Sitting in the East was never a goal.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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Catalyst830
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:13 PM

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170. "Aside from methods and modes of recogniton...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What is so important about the lessons and knowledge of masons that it has to be kept secret? I mean you made a post and I think most people really want to know is why if the knowledge is so beneficial why isn't it made readily available to the general populace?
"to make good men better"
Why not make an attempt to make ALL men better?
I'm not opposed to masonry but have a problem assoicating with any organization that i can't see a clear and defined purpose for.

i gotta go but will be right back

I'm from the city of sun and seas,
wind breeze, money make love turn to enemy, highest crime rate in the vicinity

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:24 PM

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178. "RE: Aside from methods and modes of recogniton...."
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

>What is so important about the lessons and knowledge of
>masons that it has to be kept secret?

It's not secret. If you got a "classical" education you would find most of the imporant things that Masonry "teaches." There is some additional lessons and allegory that are only for the initiated, but the IMPORTANT, big things are all over the place. What are those things? I stated a few in the post, there are so many that I don't feel comfortable saying "Here's a complete list" because I can't, I don't know all there is to know. YOu CAN'T know all there is to know.

>I mean you made a post
>and I think most people really want to know is why if the
>knowledge is so beneficial why isn't it made readily available
>to the general populace?

Matthew 7:6 - "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

First off, I'm not saying the uninitiated are swines, but in EVERY walk of life you have to go through some sort of initiation. Plus, you have to come to it willingly. I can't really explain why, but you have to want it to get it. Even when you become a Mason nothing is GIVEN to you. You have to take the time to study and learn.

I'll take a lesson from Kabbalah to kind of explain it, if you have a vessel and you try to fill it it without properly preparing it, it will shatter. The "process" is important to make sure you are properly prepared responsible enough to handle it. I know that sounds haughty, and I don't like the way it sounds myself, but it's true.

>"to make good men better"
>Why not make an attempt to make ALL men better?

I don't know. Not in a way I can explain it anyway. But I've had people talk to me about being a Mason, and i know they aren't "ready" to be Masons. Granted, they may be improved by it, but they aren't, and may never be, worthy.

>I'm not opposed to masonry but have a problem assoicating with
>any organization that i can't see a clear and defined purpose
>for.

Well, I'll say that you'll never be satisfied from what you get from Masonry because what MY purpose is, is my purpose. Every other brother in the craft will have a different ideal of what Masonry is to them.

======
FLASH!!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:46 PM

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238. "I'll take a stab at this one..."
In response to Reply # 178


  

          


>>"to make good men better"
>>Why not make an attempt to make ALL men better?
>
>I don't know. Not in a way I can explain it anyway. But I've
>had people talk to me about being a Mason, and i know they
>aren't "ready" to be Masons. Granted, they may be improved by
>it, but they aren't, and may never be, worthy.


i think that part of what makes masons respected men in the community are the deeds they do and the company they keep. if we start letting ANYONE become members of our fraternity, they could become involved in things that would give our fraternity a black eye.

Masonry is not a magic pill that instantly transforms who you are. if you're a scumbag, and become a mason, and continue doing scummy things, people who dont know any other brothers might think "wow, masons are assholes"

therefore, we must be selective, and only invite men to join our fraternity that will bring honor to the craft.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:48 PM

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239. "Werd, thanks..."
In response to Reply # 238


  

          

>
>therefore, we must be selective, and only invite men to join
>our fraternity that will bring honor to the craft.


...at least we try to.

======
FLASH!!

  

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ne_atl
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:29 PM

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182. "Any of you have Symbols on your car?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Has it benefited you in anyway? Besides the guy who always want to flash his lights at you.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:33 PM

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188. "LOL, I got one...and got a ticket too."
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

======
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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:37 PM

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192. "First time I knew a close friend was a Mason..."
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

or had any contact with a Mason that I felt comfortable enough to hold a conversation on....

We are riding 4 deep in my man's ride, after hours in Memphis...

None of us are drunk or anything...we were actually coming from the studio...but when the cop asks for his ID....

The driver pulls it out and also angles his Traveler's Card out the wallet just enough so that the cop definitely saw it....

He came back to the car and said "Oh...and I saw that light...."

Rode off with no tickets 10 minutes later.

Not saying that's EVERY experience....but that was my 1st and it definitely left an impression.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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ne_atl
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204. "I can recall 4 tickets I got out of"
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

all from state troopers. One flat out gutted me with a sign and told me my light saved me $300. I got a warning. Another trooper approached the car with symbols all over his collar, looked at my ID and said have a nice day brother. this from a white guy!!

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:44 PM

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199. "Yup..."
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

I'm lit up in the front and the back.

the only benifit it MIGHT serve is if the cop happens to be a Mason and even then...MAYBE. I've gotten tickets...I've gotten warnings...did me being a mason help? I'd like to think so, but probably not, lol

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:32 PM

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229. "i've got a decal on my back window, and wear a ring on my right hand"
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

so if i have to hand him my license and registration, i do it with the hand with the ring.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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InKast
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:36 PM

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191. "serious questions for you"
In response to Reply # 0


          

who controls the british crown?

who keeps the metric system down?

who holds back the electric car?

who makes steve guttenberg..... a star?

who robs cavefish of their sight?

who rigs every Oscar night?

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:38 PM

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195. "BOO!! Somebody already did this."
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

You suck.

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InKast
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:40 PM

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196. "awwwww! fuck, funny ideas always comes to me late!"
In response to Reply # 195


          

  

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connectpoliticditto
Member since Aug 29th 2006
2739 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 08:33 PM

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265. "you were early on banging your cousin,"
In response to Reply # 196


          

if that's considered funny.

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:41 PM

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198. "Here we go....signalling other Masons"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

how attentive are you to the signs...?

You see someone out throwing light (not necessary hailing you...but just wearing their colors)....are you predisposed to announce your presence.....or are you more observative.

Driving down the expressway and you see a symbol. Do you/have you announced yourself? What were the circumstances?

As a neophyte, after you got your third, were you eager to interract or where you tentative...

Ever had someone challenge you in the streets?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:45 PM

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200. "RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

>how attentive are you to the signs...?
>
>You see someone out throwing light (not necessary hailing
>you...but just wearing their colors)....are you predisposed to
>announce your presence.....or are you more observative.

"What's up Hiram?"

>Driving down the expressway and you see a symbol. Do you/have
>you announced yourself? What were the circumstances?

Always try to either alarm or sign.

>As a neophyte, after you got your third, were you eager to
>interract or where you tentative...

Always eager. Our instruction was tight, but I'm not one to jump out. I'll let you come tome.

>Ever had someone challenge you in the streets?

Yeah...they aint do it but once. I hate cats all eager to challenge. You gotta slip up on the basics to get a challenge. I saw some cats at home one time I went to MS and HS with. They had on big light, so of course I was crunk, got to talking to them...they shit aint sound right. I asked a friend of the family and he said there was one helluva clandestine following coming up. So...I stopped getting at them. We hemmed one cat up he didn't even "remember" the name of the lodge he was raised in. AND upon further inspection he had on a FC emblem...and he wasn't European.


OFF!

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FireBrand
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Wed Aug-08-07 06:55 PM

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202. "wow. That's what that Hiram shit is for?"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          


R.I.P American Media Integrity
Blog: www.abenghorn.net/Heat
Myspace: www.myspace.com/abenghorn
Crew: www.myspace.com/northernarcatl

  

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thebrownhornet
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:14 PM

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218. "RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          


>As a neophyte, after you got your third, were you eager to
>interract or where you tentative...

we have to spit that 3rd ob before we can even THINK about wearing any light. I've seen bros. make neos walk home with no shirt cause they walkin around all lit up and didn't know shit.
>

>Ever had someone challenge you in the streets?

In our district, as Prince Hall Masons we use the "coded" book, and because of that, bros. are STICKLERS on accuracy and want to be SURE that you learned from the Ecci vs. the Duncan or Lesters rituals. The differences are subtle but very distinct. because of that distinction the "other" masons seldom approach us on the "challenge" tip. Our line was very much on display throughout our process thanks to the crazy ass SD we had at the time. Lets just say that we went through very STRICT TRIAL and DUE EXAMINATION, and by the time we finished bros. KNEW we were thourough.

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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ne_atl
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:15 PM

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219. "RE: Here we go....signalling other Masons"
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

>how attentive are you to the signs...?
>
>You see someone out throwing light (not necessary hailing
>you...but just wearing their colors)....are you predisposed to
>announce your presence.....or are you more observative.

I always announce myself if I notice another

>
>Driving down the expressway and you see a symbol. Do you/have
>you announced yourself? What were the circumstances?

I signal with head lights or just a quick sign

>
>As a neophyte, after you got your third, were you eager to
>interract or where you tentative...

oh hell no. Only after I studied. It took me at least 6 months before I was comfortable apprachng people

>
>Ever had someone challenge you in the streets?

yes, all the time back home. People would take your light if you wasn't up on your knowledge. "Don't wear it, if you can't defend it". When I went off to college we had 180 Masons on the yard. We were larger than most of the frats on the there. Some of them were apart of other frats but were Masons 1st. We studied, quized one another and just made each other better by the numbers we had. We had each others back in fights, dorm brawls, money needed. We were like a family.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
2477 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 06:55 PM

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203. "So here's a scenario:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

A socially involved person wants to either get some shit done locally, or some shit UNdone. Finds out the person they have to go through is also a Mason, and is on the other side of the issue.

What happens?

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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RemyMartin
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205. "Huh?"
In response to Reply # 203


  

          

======
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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:02 PM

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207. "A Mason and a Mason disagree on a public political issue."
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

Both are pulling in opposite directions on the handling of the issue.

How is this handled?

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:04 PM

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209. "I'd assume the same way it would be handled if they weren't Masons."
In response to Reply # 207


  

          

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James Peach
Member since Jul 27th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:05 PM

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211. "Okay."
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

fka Invisiblist

www.jamespeach.org

  

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wray
Member since Jun 05th 2002
20655 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 07:10 PM

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216. "Outside of ritual does the OES have the same heart/purpose?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Or is it relagated to a more background roll. I've always wanted to learn (I like to learn about almost anything), but I know nothing about it but I'll be damned if I join anything to serve punch.



-----------------------------
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:11 PM

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217. "I'd have to assume so."
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

But, I'm not an ES so I can't say.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:36 PM

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231. "well, they cant start an OES meeting without a Master Mason present"
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

so clearly, there is a little bit of subjugation there

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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wray
Member since Jun 05th 2002
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:45 PM

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237. "i'm a grown woman, i'm used to that...lol."
In response to Reply # 231


  

          

what i'm askin is, after all the 'rituals' are done, will i get to learn, study, evolve in the same manner as a mason?
Are the lessons the same or will i be learning to knit or some shit?

I can deal with (to a point) whatever the forms are if the knowledge is available.

-----------------------------
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:41 PM

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234. "As a Mason, we are also Eastern Stars...."
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

but you have to officially be initiated. However, thru our knowledge of the Masonic Ritual...all of the points of OES can be conferred at one time.

That being said...

The OES ritual (so I've heard) is MUCH more to memorize than the Masonic ritual.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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theMantheMyth
Member since Mar 11th 2005
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:28 PM

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224. "What (if anything) is the role of religion in masonry?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


www.soul2020.com
www.myspace.com/chopsteak
http://chopsteak.blogspot.

<< A robbery might turn into a homo case

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:31 PM

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228. "Religion has no place in Masonry."
In response to Reply # 224


  

          

But, people do pray. And, personally I don't like when they say "In Jesus' name."

We use the Bible a lot, but that's due to the fact that most men agree that it contains important lessons on being a good person. Some lodges use Kuran, Vedas, whatever their sacred text may be.

Belief in a supreme being is part of the requirement for membership.

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:39 PM

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232. "our lodge doesn't say In Jesus' name"
In response to Reply # 228


  

          

different ritual i suppose

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:40 PM

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233. "Nah, it's not in the ritual."
In response to Reply # 232


  

          

It's when the chaplain prays at the end of the communication, usually.

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theMantheMyth
Member since Mar 11th 2005
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:44 PM

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235. "*checks that off the list of possibilities*"
In response to Reply # 228


  

          

>Belief in a supreme being is part of the requirement for
>membership.


www.soul2020.com
www.myspace.com/chopsteak
http://chopsteak.blogspot.

<< A robbery might turn into a homo case

  

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RemyMartin
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236. "Werd."
In response to Reply # 235


  

          

======
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Yank
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:10 PM

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284. "I have a book that says otherwise.................."
In response to Reply # 228


  

          

It's called THE HIRAM KEY

http://www.amazon.com/Hiram-Key-Pharaohs-Freemasonry-Discovery/dp/1931412758

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:18 PM

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290. "I have evidence that there's a treasure map on the back of..."
In response to Reply # 284


  

          

...the constitution. It's called "National Treasure"

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Yank
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309. "**tisk tisk**."
In response to Reply # 290


  

          

You do know the author is PRO MASON....

Or do you not know enough about him to consider him your brother also

  

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RemyMartin
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311. "Just because he's PRO MASON..."
In response to Reply # 309


  

          

...doesn't mean I have to agree with him, does it?

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Yank
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354. "But shouldn't it be organized?"
In response to Reply # 311


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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370. "Shouldn't what be organized?"
In response to Reply # 354


  

          

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Yank
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376. "The belief systems within Freemasonry"
In response to Reply # 370


  

          

God or no God...

  

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RemyMartin
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383. "Belief in a supreme being you mean?"
In response to Reply # 376


  

          

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Yank
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404. "EXACTLY!"
In response to Reply # 383


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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405. "What's your point?"
In response to Reply # 404


  

          

That is established. Belief in a supreme being no rules as to which, but only one.

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Yank
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407. "but you said earlier religon has no purpose"
In response to Reply # 405


  

          

in the craft...

All I am saying is that materials I've read as said otherwise...

nevermind, if you don't believe in God then you don't I'm really not here for that...

  

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RemyMartin
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412. "God exists beyond religion."
In response to Reply # 407


  

          

>All I am saying is that materials I've read as said
>otherwise...

That's believable. There are tons of books on the subject.

>nevermind, if you don't believe in God then you don't I'm
>really not here for that...

I do.

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ado420
Member since Apr 17th 2006
2004 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:29 PM

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295. "you read the other book those guys wrote?"
In response to Reply # 284


          

The Second Messiah.

It's...interesting.
Well, at least they try really hard to back up their argument.

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
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318. "Flynn...the Hiram Key is full of shit..."
In response to Reply # 284


  

          

there are so many inconsistencies and generalizations in that book its pathetic.

When someone asks what a Mason is...I say in most case scenarios that Masonry is a fraternity. There have been no devil worship moments. I've only had to deal with one goat (so far)....and, on the whole, Masonry is about teaching good men to be better.

It's like...getting a manual with your MPC.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:48 PM

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240. "so if you do share the things that you shouldnt"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

what are the consequences?

i mean what are the consequences for the person who shared them.

and what are the consequences or negative results of that information becoming available to the general public??

i mean just from reading the post seems like its just cool hand signals and nerdy phrases that mean nothing or hold no real value aside from that given to it by itself. but obviously i know nothing about this.

  

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RemyMartin
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241. "They're already out in the public."
In response to Reply # 240


  

          

And, you would incur the contempt of all honorable men.

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mista k5
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242. "so everything is out in the open yet it cant be shared?"
In response to Reply # 241


  

          

and is in fact a dishonorable thing to share?

  

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RemyMartin
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243. "Yes."
In response to Reply # 242


  

          

And yes.

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mista k5
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245. "sounds like the life"
In response to Reply # 243


  

          

sign me up

  

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RemyMartin
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249. "Pretty much."
In response to Reply # 245


  

          

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infamouschuck
Member since Aug 08th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 07:58 PM

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246. "RE: I Will Tell You About Freemasonry."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"The one who cannot see that on Earth a big endeavor is taking place,
an important plan, on which realization we are allowed to collaborate
as faithful servants, certainly has to be blind"

- Winston Churchill - (33 Degree Freemason)

in politics nothing is accidental. If something happens, be assured it was
planned this way"

- Franklin D. Roosevelt - (32 Degree Freemason)

I took my obligation to White men, not to Negroes. When I have to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave it.

- Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
History and Evolution of Freemasonry, page 329 -
Delmar D. Darrah,
The Charles T Powner Co. 1954

  

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RemyMartin
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248. "Ok, ummmm..."
In response to Reply # 246


  

          

>"The one who cannot see that on Earth a big endeavor is
>taking place,
>an important plan, on which realization we are allowed to
>collaborate
>as faithful servants, certainly has to be blind"
>
>- Winston Churchill - (33 Degree Freemason)

Where's Masonry in that statement? Oh, my bad, I should assume he's talking about how Masons run things because he's a Mason. There are things out there bigger than the Masons. But, I assume you can "touch" masons so their an easy scapegoat...oops, did I say goat?

>in politics nothing is accidental. If something happens, be
>assured it was
>planned this way"
>
>- Franklin D. Roosevelt - (32 Degree Freemason)

See response above.

>I took my obligation to White men, not to Negroes. When I have
>to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave
>it.
>
> - Illustrious Albert Pike 33°

Welp...he was a racist, and welp part 2...he's dead. Even though there are Masons who still hold true to that opinion(Won't allow black/non-whites in their lodges) I will hold that men of these opinions are NOT Masons in their hearts and are no brothers of mine. There are black ones who have the same opinion on white people joining their lodges.

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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250. "RE: Ok, ummmm..."
In response to Reply # 248


  

          


>I will
>hold that men of these opinions are NOT Masons in their hearts
>and are no brothers of mine.

what does it mean to be a mason in your heart?

  

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RemyMartin
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252. "That thing about "good men"..."
In response to Reply # 250


  

          

...that's what it means.


Again, that's subjective.

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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254. "whats the [hi]story behind the name"
In response to Reply # 252


  

          

"Free Masonry" (or masons)?

  

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RemyMartin
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256. "Masons were just that, Masons..."
In response to Reply # 254


  

          

...the practiced Masonry.

And, after a apprenticeship, working for a while, they became masters of their craft. Once you are a master, you are "free" to travel and get work on your own.

Free - Mason

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Wed Aug-08-07 08:35 PM

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266. "got ya"
In response to Reply # 256


  

          

  

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Yank
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257. "So you just decide to separate yourself"
In response to Reply # 252


  

          

as if they are not your brothers?

  

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RemyMartin
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259. "I'm free to choose who I fellowship with."
In response to Reply # 257


  

          

I have never had to seperate myself because I haven't met anyone who was..."hostile" towards me.

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Yank
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262. "But you can't ignore your "history""
In response to Reply # 259


  

          

It's like a brother ignoring his brother because he killed someone. Regardless of the fact he's still your brother.

  

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RemyMartin
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264. "You're right, I can't. And where did I try to?"
In response to Reply # 262


  

          

I thought I said the man was a Racist, maybe you missed that.

Masonry was around WAYYYYYYYYYY before any of those folx. Or, before it was the "Masonry" we have today. But, nothing I can say will convince any of you other than what you've already decided to believe. It's evil, it's bad, it's...something other than what my informed opinion tells me.

Can it be evil? Yes.

Can it be "bad?" Yes.

Were the incredibly immoral men who have been Masons? Yes.

Tell me one "group" hasn't had bad apples.

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Yank
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269. "I'm not saying that you're a bad dude"
In response to Reply # 264


  

          

I'm just saying the grass isn't greener on the other side..
1

  

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RemyMartin
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272. "I know you're not saying that."
In response to Reply # 269


  

          

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying.

Tell me what's bad about masonry.

All you've done is drop names and quotes. I'm looking for something that'll make me rethink what I'm involved in.

Do you have some evidence?

Tell me this, what information did you use to form your opinion?

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Yank
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277. "Freemasonry is a branch of the Illuminati"
In response to Reply # 272


  

          

you are aware of the Illuminati aren't you...

  

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Yank
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280. "Freemasonry is also a secret society"
In response to Reply # 277


  

          

So you can't tell us "everything"

  

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RemyMartin
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282. "If it's so secret..."
In response to Reply # 280


  

          

...why do you know it exists?

It is a society with secrets though.

And, you seem to know some of those secrets...please share.

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Yank
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409. "Well I can say"
In response to Reply # 282
Tue Aug-14-07 08:31 PM by Yank

  

          

it's secret enough to the point that your lack of knowledge is showing.... within the society of course....

Soak it all in first...

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:12 PM

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286. "are you married?"
In response to Reply # 280


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Yank
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408. "are you divorced?"
In response to Reply # 286


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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281. "I understand the concept of the illuminati, yes."
In response to Reply # 277


  

          

I "believe" more in things I know exist though. Like the bilderberg group and that bohemian thing in the other post.

I do "believe" there is a group of folx who dictate policitcal, economic and social policy around the planet. Tell me how that relates to Masonry.

Where exactly does Freemasonry stand in the hierarchy of the illuminati?

What role does Freemasonry play in the illuminati?

How are the uniformed, like myself, helping the illuminati? By working in foodbanks and calling bingo numbers for old folx?

If you're so sure it's true it shouldn't take so long to bring supporting information.

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Yank
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287. "No, you're no different from my uncle"
In response to Reply # 281
Wed Aug-08-07 09:15 PM by Yank

  

          

>
>I do "believe" there is a group of folx who dictate
>policitcal, economic and social policy around the planet. Tell
>me how that relates to Masonry.


The same way it relates to a preacher going into the LORD'S POCKET...
Feel me?
>

>Where exactly does Freemasonry stand in the hierarchy of the
>illuminati?

Easy.. Connections.. Connections lead to a monopoly which leads to control. The Bohemian thing? yeah it goes down over there....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983

  

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RemyMartin
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289. "Oh...but you CAN present evidence of the Bohemian cats quickly?"
In response to Reply # 287


  

          

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Yank
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307. "What?"
In response to Reply # 289


  

          

Man it's right there....

You asked for "evidence"

  

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RemyMartin
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310. "I know, you found evidence about Bohemian Grove..."
In response to Reply # 307


  

          

...but not the Masons.

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meccau
Member since Jul 16th 2006
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Mon Aug-20-07 12:56 AM

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423. "RE: That thing about "good men"..."
In response to Reply # 252


          

>...that's what it means.
>
>
>Again, that's subjective.

its objective....

subjecting what's free goes against masonry....and that's the purity of the heart.

im not trying to be the teacher but....

  

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infamouschuck
Member since Aug 08th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 08:21 PM

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258. "RE: Ok, ummmm..."
In response to Reply # 248


  

          

So I take it that you are a mason? Being that you are so eager to defend these wolves in sheep's clothing. What degree are you ,if you don't mind me asking ? Let me guess....Entered Apprentice ?

  

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RemyMartin
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260. "What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?"
In response to Reply # 258


  

          

And, I didn't defend anyone I just pointed out that what you were touting as "telling us about Masonry" had no reference to Masonry in it.

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infamouschuck
Member since Aug 08th 2007
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Wed Aug-08-07 08:36 PM

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268. "RE: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?"
In response to Reply # 260


  

          

Because in masonry there is a term used call hoodwinked....Most masons that are bluelodge masons only reach the third degree which is known as a master mason. Bluelodge masons are purposely mislead so that they might aspire to reach the higher degrees.I am sorry maybe you are not a traveler ?

  

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RemyMartin
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270. "I'll ask again: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?"
In response to Reply # 268


  

          

>Bluelodge
>masons are purposely mislead so that they might aspire to
>reach the higher degrees.

Now, that you've made this point, PLEASE support it with information and not just "You aren't high enough to know."

There's my challenge to you. Can you do that?

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thebrownhornet
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276. "WoW..."
In response to Reply # 270


  

          

a little (mis)information can be dangerous indeed...

it would seem that if people took the time to dig up all these "facts" about Masonry they'd have stumbled across some accurate info SOMEWHERE?! lol

____________________________

"Too hard for ya Mama, Too hip for ya Daddy.


-- I AM. TRY ME. -

  

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RemyMartin
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278. "They can NEVER support their points though."
In response to Reply # 276


  

          

Ever.

I want them to. Help me out.


I mean i would think if you can't support your opinion maybe you should open up to consider it's wrong, but...**shrug**

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:50 AM

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334. "looks like you can't either...."
In response to Reply # 278


  

          

...without providing evasive and coy responses.

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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337. "When you ask questions about the ritual, you're right."
In response to Reply # 334


  

          

I can't provide evidence. That's against the rules.

But, I like how you strike on the one thing that you already knew we couldn't talk about and ride that out. I feel you though. You made your point. We can't talk about the ritual.

You won.

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meccau
Member since Jul 16th 2006
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Mon Aug-20-07 12:52 AM

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422. "RE: When you ask questions about the ritual, you're right."
In response to Reply # 337


          

but....everything we know is right in front of us.

but this is a simple explanation of the soul of the great architect.

i commend you for not losing your anger when getting tried, denied and tried again.

  

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infamouschuck
Member since Aug 08th 2007
475 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:05 PM

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279. "RE: I'll ask again: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?"
In response to Reply # 270


  

          

I cannot tale you are anyone else about masonry..one must find out for himself. Besides if a mason tells you about the secrets of masonry he could have his throat cut from ear to ear or worse being disemboweled. It is obivious to me that you are an angry person by the way you choose your words. You should calm down a bit. I am only stating the facts here. Anyone with a computer in front of them can find out everthing....and I do mean everything there is to know about freemasonry and then they can make up ther own minds about it being Good or evil. There are no more secrets..This my son is the Nigredo Stage of Life( The Blackening) The Revelation of The Method. Look up the Rosicrucian Manifesto. The reason I thought you were a entered apprentice was by your lack of understanding of the craft. Funny thing to call it the craft. Could it be witchcraft ? Masons can tell you what has taken place in the world i.e. the quotes I posted from just a few of them and people will still defend it,hence the Revelation of the method. Look up some of the things that I have written and then reply.

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:11 PM

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285. "so in other words, you have nothing...."
In response to Reply # 279


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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bibblegolf
Member since Oct 19th 2004
21833 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:53 AM

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335. "but you're a JEW though!"
In response to Reply # 285


  

          

LMMFAO!!!

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:15 PM

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288. "Exactly."
In response to Reply # 279


  

          

>I cannot tale you are anyone else about masonry..one must
>find out for himself. Besides if a mason tells you about the
>secrets of masonry he could have his throat cut from ear to
>ear or worse being disemboweled.

Then you are a Mason I presume?

>It is obivious to me that you
>are an angry person by the way you choose your words. You
>should calm down a bit.

I'm sorry if I came across as angry because I asked you to prove what you were talking about. How rude of me.

>I am only stating the facts here.

You have not stated ONE fact. Although you have stated vague opinion and quoted some people who were Masons, which I addressed head on.

>Anyone with a computer in front of them can find out
>everthing....and I do mean everything there is to know about
>freemasonry and then they can make up ther own minds about it
>being Good or evil.

you're right, so how about you link some of those things. Thanks.

>There are no more secrets..This my son is
>the Nigredo Stage of Life( The Blackening) The Revelation of
>The Method. Look up the Rosicrucian Manifesto.

I gues this is the point where I tell you I am a Master Mason...and a Rosicrucian.

>The reason I
>thought you were a entered apprentice was by your lack of
>understanding of the craft.

You haven't said anything about the craft. Not. One. Thing.

>Funny thing to call it the craft. Could it be witchcraft?

Rhetoric is an interesting tool. You can convince people with it, or make people think you've convinced them with it. Good "zing" though. Are all things that are "crafts" whichcraft? What about arts and crafts in summercamp? Is that witchcraft?

>Masons can tell you what has taken place in the world i.e. the quotes I posted from just a few of them and people will still defend it,hence the Revelation of
>the method. Look up some of the things that I have written and
>then reply.

You haven't written anything of note. BUt, you resort to the defense KosherSam announced above. Hilarious.

I mean...come on dude. Tell me ONE thing.

======
FLASH!!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:20 PM

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291. "hey, i can make a mean voodoo doll with some popsicle sticks..."
In response to Reply # 288


  

          


>>Funny thing to call it the craft. Could it be witchcraft?
>
>Rhetoric is an interesting tool. You can convince people with
>it, or make people think you've convinced them with it. Good
>"zing" though. Are all things that are "crafts" whichcraft?
>What about arts and crafts in summercamp? Is that witchcraft?

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:09 PM

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283. "i'd love to see your evidence of this"
In response to Reply # 268


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:22 PM

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292. "You called it. PERFECTLY."
In response to Reply # 283


  

          

We aren't high enough to know the truth. He's protecting us now.

Thank you, kind sir.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Yank
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24509 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:26 PM

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293. "Look either one of you can be in denial all you want"
In response to Reply # 292
Wed Aug-08-07 09:28 PM by Yank

  

          

but the fact of the matter is that Remy, you are aware of "certain" things, regardless of the fact rather if how you would like the answer to hear pertains to Masonry. These people are associated with you. I don't care if this person has evidence or not, if it's about who I associate with, I would like to know. Hell your momma even did that for ya, (no pun intended), I'm just saying. You can be in denial but what you know is in fact circumstantial and that alone brings questions and doubt...

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:30 PM

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296. "i've yet to see you actually PROVE anything"
In response to Reply # 293


  

          

and yet, we're in denial

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Yank
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:35 PM

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302. "Well I didn't know you were actually involved in the disscussion"
In response to Reply # 296


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:31 PM

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298. "Huh?"
In response to Reply # 293


  

          

I know who I deal with...you don't.

You have opinion.

I have practical experience.

If anyone has a position to convince the other it's me, and the other brothers here, with an informed opinion.

I said, I'm OPEN to what you bring up, but you bring no evidence with it. I *KNOW* there are bad people in Masonry. Always have been, always will be. You aren't open to being wrong. I say it's blue, you say it's red...and your eyes are closed. I can't convince you otherwise, obviously.

Hell, i know some people in positions of authority in my jurisdiction fall in to that category. But, does that make Masonry as a whole, bad?

What exactly am I in denial about?

You should just say, "I have no evidence, I can't prove it. But this is what I believe and I'm sticking to it. If your experience is differnt than what I believe, so be it. But I'm not going to let your information sway my opinion."

======
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Yank
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:40 PM

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305. "Wow man this is prue denial"
In response to Reply # 298


  

          

I said, I'm OPEN to what you bring up, but you bring no evidence with it. I *KNOW* there are bad people in Masonry. Always have been, always will be. You aren't open to being wrong. I say it's blue, you say it's red...and your eyes are closed. I can't convince you otherwise, obviously.


The thing is with me man seriously, There is no red or blue with me, That's Hegelian Left Right, Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis Dialectic that has you see it one sided of course because it's all by design.

That's having your eyes wide open because there isn't a debate clouding your judgment. You can disagree and decide not to look into what I've been saying or you can free your mind for second and wonder if what you are really involved in is for the greater good.

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-08-07 09:45 PM

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308. "Dog, my point is..."
In response to Reply # 305


  

          

>That's having your eyes wide open because there isn't a debate
>clouding your judgment. You can disagree and decide not to
>look into what I've been saying or you can free your mind for
>second and wonder if what you are really involved in is for
>the greater good.

...you haven't said anything.

You quoted pike, said Jesse Jackson and a couple other names I am not scrolling back up to find.

I can't research what you're saying because of the vagueness of it(ironic based on my interaction with bibble up there). I believe there may be some level of "evil" working in Masonry, like I said, people I *KNOW* are using it for their personal reasons and that pisses me off. But, not enough that I'll walk away from it.

Are you willing to free your mind and see that what I am doing is for the greater good? I mean, is the plan of the illuminati for me to help them keep their grasp on the world by reading off Bingo numbers to old folx and packing food in vans for churches?

My eyes are open, I'm a born skeptic so I'm not taking anything anyone has given me, or I've gotten without my own research.

But, you have presented nothing that I can follow up on. If you ahve, and I've missed it, could you recap in your reply to this?

======
FLASH!!

  

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 06:56 AM

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323. "RE: Dog, my point is..."
In response to Reply # 308
Thu Aug-09-07 07:03 AM by Yank

  

          

>>That's having your eyes wide open because there isn't a
>debate
>>clouding your judgment. You can disagree and decide not to
>>look into what I've been saying or you can free your mind
>for
>>second and wonder if what you are really involved in is for
>>the greater good.
>
>...you haven't said anything.
>
>You quoted pike, said Jesse Jackson and a couple other names I
>am not scrolling back up to find.
>
>I can't research what you're saying because of the vagueness
>of it(ironic based on my interaction with bibble up there). I
>believe there may be some level of "evil" working in Masonry,
>like I said, people I *KNOW* are using it for their personal
>reasons and that pisses me off. But, not enough that I'll walk
>away from it.
>
>Are you willing to free your mind and see that what I am doing
>is for the greater good? I mean, is the plan of the illuminati
>for me to help them keep their grasp on the world by reading
>off Bingo numbers to old folx and packing food in vans for
>churches?


Again I'll use the same analogy, it's like trust your pastor until he goes into the Lord's pocket. That's when you'll see true colors..

I shouldn't have to use an example here when I speak of Fake pastors and preachers right?

Should Freemasonry be any different if you have knowledge of men you believe to be "pretending" or believe to be "bad masons"?

>
>My eyes are open, I'm a born skeptic so I'm not taking
>anything anyone has given me, or I've gotten without my own
>research.






We've had this discussion before, last time I had to prove to you that Freemasonry was a secret society, You didn't want to believe me then so what make ME think you will believe now....

I know you tryin to look good on OKP and isht but think about it, you already know I am not the only person who questions the belief system of Freemasonry that you have ran into rather it be online or in person. So don't pretend this is a shock to you.. You know just as well that there are "Bad masons" out there than are in total control..

A dead giveaway is the infamous all seeing eye on the back of those Federal Reserve Notes... aka $1.....http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/images/All_Seeing_Eye_Large.jpg(I remember you replied and said something about National Treasure)... But FDR's is a whole other topic... No one is trying to be "wise" (oh KOSHER one) only trying to let people know that they should look into what's controlling them and their families...

You better believe some of these people don't need someone to "Teach" or show them how to think.. A lot of people take initiative and find out for themselves.. What you "focus" on you will find....

Sure when I first heard all of this isht I was skeptic, but my judgment was never clouded. Sure I was a huge Clinton fan, until I investigated and found out that he isn't the person who I thought he was...

These are things you're gonna have to do for yourself Remy/Kosher..

I can only show you the door, it's up to you to walk through it..




A Metaprogrammer at the Door of Chapel Perilous

Adam Weishaupt In the literature that concerns the Illuminati relentless speculation abounds. No other secret society in recent history - with the exception of Freemasonry - has generated as much legend, hysteria, and disinformation. I first became aware of the the Illuminati about 14 years ago. Shortly thereafter I read a book, written by Robert Anton Wilson, called Cosmic Trigger: Final Secret of the Illuminati. Wilson published it in 1977 but his opening remarks on the subject still ring true today:

Briefly, the background of the Bavarian Illuminati puzzle is this. On May 1, 1776, in Bavaria, Dr. Adam Weishaupt, a professor of Canon Law at Ingolstadt University and a former Jesuit, formed a secret society called the Order of the Illuminati within the existing Masonic lodges of Germany. Since Masonry is itself a secret society, the Illuminati was a secret society within a secret society, a mystery inside a mystery, so to say. In 1785 the Illuminati were suppressed by the Bavarian government for allegedly plotting to overthrow all the kings in Europe and the Pope to boot. This much is generally agreed upon by all historians. 1 Everything else is a matter of heated, and sometimes fetid, controversy.

It has been claimed that Dr. Weishaupt was an atheist, a Cabalistic magician, a rationalist, a mystic; a democrat, a socialist, an anarchist, a fascist; a Machiavellian amoralist, an alchemist, a totalitarian and an "enthusiastic philanthropist." (The last was the verdict of Thomas Jefferson, by the way.) The Illuminati have also been credited with managing the French and American revolutions behind the scenes, taking over the world, being the brains behind Communism, continuing underground up to the 1970s, secretly worshipping the Devil, and mopery with intent to gawk. Some claim that Weishaupt didn't even invent the Illuminati, but only revived it. The Order of Illuminati has been traced back to the Knights Templar, to the Greek and Gnostic initiatory cults, to Egypt, even to Atlantis. The one safe generalization one can make is that Weishaupt's intent to maintain secrecy has worked; no two students of Illuminology have ever agreed totally about what the "inner secret" or purpose of the Order actually was (or is . . .). There is endless room for spooky speculation, and for pedantic paranoia, once one really gets into the literature of the subject; and there has been a wave of sensational "ex-poses" of the Illuminati every generation since 1776. If you were to believe all this sensational literature, the damned Bavarian conspirators were responsible for everything wrong with the world, including the energy crises and the fact that you can't even get a plumber on weekends. (pp. 3-4)

That short excerpt is perhaps the most honest and succinct introduction to the Illuminati as you'll ever come across. So it is more than a bit ironic that Wilson, throughout the rest of the text, proceeds to perpetuate and expand upon similar myths, and in the process manages to take it to a whole new level. 2 In the end, the Illuminati had mystified Wilson as much as anyone in the preceding centuries.

Robert Anton Wilson (RAW) is an enigma in his own right: an archetypal Trickster in the tradition of Aleister Crowley or Timothy Leary, both of whom he greatly admires. 3 The Cosmic Trigger Trilogy is meant to awaken the reader to multiple mind-blowing streams of thought and completely shatter preconceived notions of perception, time and space - much as the writings of illuminists themselves. Herein lies the seed of speculation to the effect that he must surely be in on the conspiracy - some have gone so far as to believe he's the Grand Master (or inner head) of the Illuminati himself. Wilson has always toyed with the accusations, and in typical RAW fashion, he's never denied it outright.

Cosmic Trigger wasn't the first book Wilson dedicated to the theme, however. Two years earlier, in 1975, RAW and co-author Robert Shea popularized the modern wave of Illuminati conspiracies with the publication of the novel Illuminatus! Trilogy. A veritable cult classic, Illuminatus invigorated the underground market and spawned a whole new generation of conspiracy authors. One cannot read any of RAW's material without a healthy sense of humor, though, and Illuminatus is definitely no exception. Written between 1969 and 1971 it reads like a subversive anarchist manual, yet satirical and surreal at the same time. The cut-and-paste job of excerpts right into the flow of dialogue - from books and pamphlets on a wide range of conspiracy theories - probably boosted its appeal from the beginning.

Any researcher investigating the Illuminati today would be remiss not to mention RAW - especially in a book or document purporting to cover the subject in detail. With the exception of Myron Fagan, "Wild" Bill Cooper, 4 the John Birchers and Biblical endtimes literature, the formation of the current mythos surrounding the subject has a lot to do with the popularity of Wilson's books: have you ever seen the Illuminati and the star Sirius mentioned in the same paragraph?

Before plunging headlong into the history of the Bavarian Illuminati, it might be useful to have a look at Wilson's diagram - his interpretation (at the time) of the "occult conspiracy" as it has been transmitted through the ages (Cosmic Trigger: Final Secret of the Illuminati, p.188):

New Promethean Possibilities

“European aristocrats transferred their lighted candles from Christian altars to Masonic lodges. The flame of occult alchemists, which had promised to turn dross into gold, reappeared at the center of new "circles" seeking to recreate a golden age: Bavarian Illuminists conspiring against the Jesuits, French Philadelphians against Napoleon, Italian charcoal burners against the Hapsburgs.”
- Billington, Fire in the Minds of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith, p. 6

The Bavarian Illuminati originated during an age replete with the growing belief in the acquisition of truth through observation and experience. The Age of Enlightenment was in full swing and by the end of the Eighteenth Century an explosion of natural philosophy, science, the resurgence of hermeticism and occult experimentation, all competed directly with the traditional teachings of the Church and the Jesuit monopoly in the Universities and Colleges. 5 Numerous ideologies owe an intellectual and political heritage to this period: skepticism, rationalism, atheism, liberalism, humanism, reductionism, modernism, communism, nihilism and anarchism - among the most apparent.

As the Eighteenth Century came to a close Baron de Montesquieu (1689-1755), Denis Diderot (1713-1784), Voltaire (1694-1778), Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778), Marquis de Condorcet (1743-1794), Comte de Mirabeau (1749- 1791), David Hume (1711-1776), Adam Smith (1723-1790), Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) were famous in their own time. The instrument of reason became a new faith, no less susceptible to its own breed of dogmatism. The philosophers of the Enlightenment reasoned that the physics of Newton might become applicable in all fields of endeavor: the fundamental cosmic laws of nature could transform society and man himself into a "noble savage." 6

The idea of a "glorious revolution" attained widespread acceptance, but during Weishaupt's time it was still a relatively new concept to link political change with social change. The "imminent revolution of the human mind," promulgated by the "radical Bavarian Illuminists," coincided with Mirabeau's doctrine of a coming secular upheaval and universal revolution. Mirabeau proclaimed Prussia to be the most likely place for the start of the revolution, with the "German Illuminists as its probable leaders." History records, however, that it was Mirabeau himself who became one of the main catalysts to spark the "fire in the minds of men" during the French Revolution. 7

At about the same time Weishaupt was embarking on an academic career two important figures entered the world stage: Thomas Robert Malthus, 8 born in 1766, a major influence on Darwinism, population control and the eugenics movement; four years later we see the birth of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, in Stuttgart Germany, the inventor of what would become known as the "Hegelian Dialectic." "For Hegelians," Antony C. Sutton reports, "the State is almighty and seen as 'the march of God on earth.' Indeed, a State religion. Progress in the Hegelian State is through contrived conflict: the clash of opposites makes for progress. If you can control the opposites, you dominate the nature of the outcome" (Introduction to the 2002 edition of America's Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones, no pagination PDF copy).

Revolutionary radicals were impressed with the proof-of-concept displayed by the ruthless conspirators in France. Malthusian and Hegelian dogma became equally influential for anarchists, communists, the intelligentsia and the new breed of revolutionaries that surfaced in the 19th Century: Young Hegelians such as Bakunin, Proudhon and Marx took up the cause in the "spirit of the times" to "destroy in order to build."
The Bavarian Illuminati: The "Insinuating Brothers" of ☉

“Weishaupt . . . proposed as the end of Illuminism the abolition of property, social authority, nationality, and the return of the human race to the happy state in which it formed only a single family without artificial needs, without useless sciences, every father being priest and magistrate. Priest of we know not what religion, for in spite of their frequent invocations of the God of Nature, many indications lead us to conclude that Weishaupt had, like Diderot and d'Holbach, no other God than Nature herself. From his doctrine would naturally follow German ultra-Hegelianism and the system of anarchy recently developed in France, of which the physiognomy suggests a foreign origin.”
- Henry Martin, Histoire de France depuis les temps les plus reculés jusqu'en 1789, XVI. 533. 9

“Do you realize sufficiently what it means to rule - to rule in a secret society? Not only over the lesser or more important of the populace, but over the best of men, over men of all ranks, nations, and religions, to rule without external force, to unite them indissolubly, to breathe one spirit and soul into them, men distributed over all parts of the world? . . . And finally, do you know what secret societies are? What a place they occupy in the great kingdom of the world's events? Do you think they are unimportant, transitory appearances?”
- Adam Weishaupt, Nachtrag von weitern Originalschriften, II, pp. 44, 51. 10

A quick perusal on the World Wide Web will show the disparity of opinions and irreconcilable differences about the history of the Illuminati - Bavarian or otherwise. It's getting better though, a recent article published by the American Atheists 11 - The Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and The Illuminati - has solid documentation and thorough references for those inclined to investigate further into primary and secondary source material; the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon has uploaded part of Vernon L. Stauffer's New England and the Bavarian Illuminati; Bilderberg.org has most of the relevant parts of John Robison's classic, Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe; the Catholic Encyclopedia has long had a good, but short, article; nearly the complete text - and the two most important chapters as it concerns the Illuminati - from Nesta Webster's Secret Societies & Subversive Movements has been posted; three important chapters from Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman's To Eliminate the Opiate Vol. I; Wikipedia.org has an adequate article; and, for those poor Dan Brown fans whose first introduction to the Illuminati was the bestseller Angels & Demons, there's a good debugging write-up from the Center for Studies on New Religions.

If you never buy a single book on the Illuminati, and just read the internet references cited above, you would have an excellent grasp - much greater than your average conspiracy theorist - on the facts (as we can safely say) concerning the rise and fall of the Bavarian Illuminati. I have taken it a bit further, however. For the last six months I've engaged in a crash course on the Illuminati and related subjects: absorbing and taking notes from Proofs of a Conspiracy ..., and other internet references; buying Barruel's Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism, Billington's Fire In the Minds of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith, Webster's Secret Societies & Subversive Movements, Antelman's To Eliminate the Opiate Vol. 1, Yates' The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, Fulop-Miller's The Power and Secret of the Jesuits, Carr's Pawns in the Game; and at the same time consulting other works, in my own personal library, when needed. 12



  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:54 AM

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336. "RE: Dog, my point is..."
In response to Reply # 323


  

          


>
>We've had this discussion before, last time I had to prove to
>you that Freemasonry was a secret society, You didn't want to
>believe me then so what make ME think you will believe
>now....
>
>I know you tryin to look good on OKP and isht but think about
>it, you already know I am not the only person who questions
>the belief system of Freemasonry that you have ran into rather
>it be online or in person. So don't pretend this is a shock
>to you.. You know just as well that there are "Bad masons"
>out there than are in total control..

How am I trying to look good on OKP? I'd have this same discussion offline, whatever. I don't know there are Bad Masons in total control, neither do you...you assume there is, I assume there might be.


>A dead giveaway is the infamous all seeing eye on the back of
>those Federal Reserve Notes... aka
>$1.....http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/images/All_Seeing_Eye_Large.jpg(I
>remember you replied and said something about National
>Treasure)... But FDR's is a whole other topic... No one is
>trying to be "wise" (oh KOSHER one) only trying to let people
>know that they should look into what's controlling them and
>their families...

I say those things are BIGGER than Masons. You're giving Masons WAY too much credit in this. Yes, all of that was filtered through Masonry, but I think there's more to this mysterious control system you speak of than Masons.

>You better believe some of these people don't need someone to
>"Teach" or show them how to think.. A lot of people take
>initiative and find out for themselves.. What you "focus" on
>you will find....

So, am I one who did my own research or who was taught what to think? I was taught how to do my own research. I was taught not to take things at face value. I'm sure my library of ANTI-Masonry literature is larger than yours and not going to talk about PRO-Masonry.

You assume I disagree w/ you out of ignorance, how ironic is that? You have no first hand information or experience. Do you deny that?

>Sure when I first heard all of this isht I was skeptic, but my
>judgment was never clouded. Sure I was a huge Clinton fan,
>until I investigated and found out that he isn't the person
>who I thought he was...

>These are things you're gonna have to do for yourself
>Remy/Kosher..
>
>I can only show you the door, it's up to you to walk through
>it..
>

I just have to assume we won't agree. I know what I do, I know what I get out of it, I know what I put in to it. You have an opinion and I respect that but your assumption that I don't agree w/ what you said because I "choose" not to research is unfounded and flat our wrong.

======
FLASH!!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:27 PM

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294. "it never fails"
In response to Reply # 292


  

          

and the thing i love is that the other "higher up branches" aren't really that selective.

if you're a master mason and want to join scottish rite, you've already shown yourself to be worthy by being a master mason. if you pay the 50 bucks or whatever, you're in.

you can choose to be active in it or not, but you can basically be willing to pay dues and become a member of any other masonic organization.

i might join the shriners and scottish rite and knights templar just so i can shoot down the "you're not high enough up" arguments.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Yank
Charter member
24509 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:33 PM

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300. "So you're looking to become 32nd or 33rd?"
In response to Reply # 294


  

          

>and the thing i love is that the other "higher up branches"
>aren't really that selective.
>
>if you're a master mason and want to join scottish rite,
>you've already shown yourself to be worthy by being a master
>mason. if you pay the 50 bucks or whatever, you're in.
>
>you can choose to be active in it or not, but you can
>basically be willing to pay dues and become a member of any
>other masonic organization.
>
>i might join the shriners and scottish rite and knights
>templar just so i can shoot down the "you're not high enough
>up" arguments.



Because the debate is beyond Shriners and Master Masons...

Are you willing to go beyond that?

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:36 PM

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303. "how far does it go, oh wise one?"
In response to Reply # 300


  

          

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:34 PM

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301. "I *plan* to go through it all."
In response to Reply # 294


  

          

But then it'll be "you aint in the special SPECIAL group, so..."

======
FLASH!!

  

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gizzy_womack
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2356 posts
Fri Aug-10-07 12:35 AM

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366. ""Most masons that are bluelodge masons only reach the 3rd degree""
In response to Reply # 268


  

          

interesting how you put that.






>Because in masonry there is a term used call
>hoodwinked....Most masons that are bluelodge masons only reach
>the third degree which is known as a master mason. Bluelodge
>masons are purposely mislead so that they might aspire to
>reach the higher degrees.I am sorry maybe you are not a
>traveler ?

-------------



"I asked GOD to help me fly away, and if not, then please keep your eye on me"

I'm just your average everyday stockbroker.

Who is John Galt??

  

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meccau
Member since Jul 16th 2006
296 posts
Mon Aug-20-07 12:48 AM

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421. "RE: What makes you think I'm an Entered Apprentice?"
In response to Reply # 268


          

>Because in masonry there is a term used call
>hoodwinked....Most masons that are bluelodge masons only reach
>the third degree which is known as a master mason. Bluelodge
>masons are purposely mislead so that they might aspire to
>reach the higher degrees.I am sorry maybe you are not a
>traveler ?

but you know that in the beginning....all of the answers are there....so in a since you are hoodwinked yourself by growing and not realizing.....

theres a book called the alchemist and in the book it ends with the man GOING BACK TO WHERE HE CAME FROM, where he discovers the treasure (or light in your case)

now im a 3rd degree....but i dare someone higher to test me in my lodge.

but that's a different story....

this whole post is kinda suspect though....

but i like how it's subliminally trying to recruit.


go head remy martin....

  

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ne_atl
Charter member
18874 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 08:10 AM

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339. "an Entered Apprentice? lmao!"
In response to Reply # 258


  

          

>So I take it that you are a mason? Being that you are so
>eager to defend these wolves in sheep's clothing. What degree
>are you ,if you don't mind me asking ? Let me guess....Entered
>Apprentice ?

Have you read anything in the other 257 post above. But you ask if he's an Entered Apprentice?

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 08:13 AM

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342. "That speaks volumes, don't it?"
In response to Reply # 339
Thu Aug-09-07 08:13 AM by RemyMartin

  

          

And yet I'm the one who isn't high enough to see the truth.

======
FLASH!!

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:41 PM

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306. "does it's CE roots bother you as a EE?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 09:47 PM

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312. "It's not CE..."
In response to Reply # 306
Wed Aug-08-07 09:47 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

...it's geometry.

======
FLASH!!

  

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ScandalousWoman
Member since Nov 19th 2002
25416 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 11:08 PM

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319. "travel lightly"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

black dude said this to an older white guy (with a ring on) one day at the close of a business meeting.
white man got startled like shit then recovered and said something back.

are you supposed to say that in farewell or something?

also, can non-masons get creepy, peeping johns expelled from freemasony? just for being creepy?

***********************
it was good for me, too, lover.
50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
"Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to the error that counts." ~ Nikki Giovanni

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Wed Aug-08-07 11:15 PM

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320. "Don't worry about all that."
In response to Reply # 319


  

          

>also, can non-masons get creepy, peeping johns expelled from
>freemasony? just for being creepy?

And, no.

======
FLASH!!

  

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StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 06:48 AM

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322. "how have you benefitted ....socially/politically/financially"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



and is it something that in hindsight you feel was not available to you otherwise.

  

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RemyMartin
Charter member
92323 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:47 AM

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332. "Mostly socially."
In response to Reply # 322


  

          

Not politically(aside from learning how to be a better politician) and financially...sheeit, it's cost me more than anything. I did start a t-shirt business because of it though.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Yank
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24509 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 07:01 AM

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324. "The Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and The Illuminati"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


In the history of Atheism, no period is as complex and exciting as that time we know today as the Enlightenment. Cultural historians and philosophers consider this era to have spanned the eighteenth century, cresting during the French Revolution of 1789. It was a phenomenon which swept the western world, drowning in its wake many of the sclerotic and despotic institutions of l'ancien regime or old order, and helping to crystallize a new view of man and the roles of reason, nature, progress and religion.

And too, the Enlightenment was a feverish period of Atheistic thought and propaganda. Many of the leading philosophers of the time were Atheists or deists, opposed to the cultural and political hegemony long exercised by the Vatican and its shock troops, the Jesuits. Much of the political, social and literary activity of the Enlightenment was characterized by a repudiation of Christianity, and the formulation of doctrines calling for separation, if not outright abolition, of state and church.

While there are many currents to this period, one of the fascinating and little-explored backwater eddys of particular interest to Atheists and libertarians is the role of Masonic lodges and "secret societies" during this time. Surprisingly little objective historical work exists on this area. The drama of social revolution and intellectual apostacy was taking place not only in the streets of Paris, or the open fields of Lexington and Concord, but in countless lodges and sect gatherings and reading societies as well. These conclaves, with their metaphorical-hermetic secrets, symbolism and lore, were the crucibles of "impiety and anarchy" so bemoaned by church dogmatists of the time like the Jesuit Abbe Barruel. Of all of the clubs, societies, libraries, salons and lodges of this stormy time, perhaps none has been so villified, attacked and misunderstood as that group known as the Order of the Illuminati.

My purpose here is not to write a history of the French Revolution, or even attempt the herculean task of digesting the complex fabric of the Enlightenment. We do know, however, that much of the best in western civilization today rests on some of the ideas germinated or reformulated during that age of revolution, ideas formulated by Atheists, deists, rationalists and state-church separationists. What I hope to undertake here is a twofold task: an examination of Freemasonry, with its founding and subsequent role in the Enlightenment, and an examination and defense of the maligned, little-understood sect of the Illuminati — a defense long overdue.


Any definition of the Enlightenment must, of necessity, begin with a prohibitorum — attempts to rigidly segmentalize history are often futile, since they envision history as a string of compact, autonomous events, each a "period", distinct in all respects from all other times. History is not this way, of course, and like any period the Enlightenment is a broad designation to help us understand the events and ideas of the 18th century. Were we to construct a model to loosely describe this time, however, it would emphasize three areas — reason, nature, and progress. It was during this time that how leading personalities looked at their world, its religions, its societies, its knowledge, its political institutions, changed so radically. And it was here that the birthpangs of industrialization were being felt, where so much of the modern world was to be born from the womb of the old order.

Reason is the capstone in the pyramid of ideas which describe the Enlightenment. Reason, not faith or divine revelation, told one the facts about life and the world. Some held that reason alone, the product of thoughtful contemplation, could reveal archetypical truths in much the same way Pythagoras had deduced his theorems on Samos millenia before; others maintained that reason involved an empirical faculty as well. In either case, reason was intermeshed with nature. Like nature, mans' reason had become vitiated by those notorious enemies of humanity — religious superstition, government, socioeconomic rank, poverty and prejudice. Destroy these in an unpheavel of antiauthoritarian wrath, and once again reason would provide a lucid, natural mechanism for apprehending the world and guiding a new human society.

Reason, then, was the faculty for comprehending nature, the second important element in the Enlightenment triad. Nature was just that — the natural, real world. It was not the realm of the supernatural, the demonic, or the godly, but the empirical or rational "stuff" of which the universe was, and is, made. Nature could be understood through reason; through logic, scientific inquiry, and open mind of free inquiry, nature would yield her secrets.

Finally, there was progress. Reason, working upon nature, would enhance the quality of life for each and every one of the Enlightened. The Atheist philosopher Condorcet preached the doctrine of a coming Utopia, where indefinite progress would bring forth a "natural salvation" of plenty and immortality. Progress held that since the universe was knowable, enlightened man could become the subject of history rather than its object. Mankind could fashion nature to its wishes; the efficacy in shaping the natural order was limited only by time and the sheer limits, if any, of reason.

On each and every one of these points which underpinned the Englightenment — reason, progress, nature — the orthodoxy of the era were hostile. The church maintained that divine inspiration and revelation were sufficient to lead the kind of life desired for man by god, pope and king. Nature was hostile, unknowable, and forever a surrogate to a higher reality ruled by supernatural forces, gods and demons alike. One's time on earth was allotted only for preparation in dying and being reborn in that supernatural kingdom. As for progress, the hierarchical arrangement of a god in heaven and kings and popes on earth as his "lawful representatives" demanded conformity, stablility, and obedience, instead of development, experimentation and blasphemy.

Atheism and militant anti-clericalism were both important elements in the Enlightenment. The French philosopher Voltaire saw priests and Christianity as a scourge on the human race, exclaiming "E'crasez l'infame!" (Crush the infamous things!). The clergy were perceived corrupt, the pope considered a tyrant, the king despised as a lackey and errand boy for the whoremaster in Rome.

If the bible was the holy book of the Christian enlightenment, then the Encyclopedia was the inspiration of the Enlightenment. Here was a compendium of human knowledge dealing with arts, sciences mechanics and philosophy which swelled to some 36 volumes by 1780. Begun by the Atheist Diderot in 1751, the Encyclopedia bore the imprints of Voltaire, Montesque, Rousseau, Buffon, Turgot and others. Gracing the title page of Diderot's compendium in the first edition was a drawing of Lucifer, symbol of light and rebellion, standing beside the masonic symbols of square and compass.

The Enlightenment mirrored the Christian religion. Reason became its revelation, nature its god. If the Enlightenment did not abolish the myth of god, it reduced god to a sort of absentee deity, a caretaker to the universe who was nevertheless subject to the laws of nature. Deism arose from the same fertile soil of the Enlightenment as had Atheism, and no doubt many deists were actually Atheists. The deistic god was symbolized in the masonic lodges as the "Great Architect of the Universe", certainly not the god of the Christian superstition.

This and other critical notions of the Enlightenment were spread throughout all of Europe, and even to the New World. It had been nearly 250 years since the first book printer to popularize literature, one Aldus Manutius of Venice, had begun the mass circulation of pamphlets and booklets. The Enlightenment was a literary explosion of dissertations, books and journals, all filled with the novel ideas as controversies of the period. These ideas spread; they were discussed and debated in the universities (where they often met with official and clerical censure), in reading societies, in cafes and salons, and in those mysterious lodges of the Freemasons.



AANEWS


Roots of Atheism

Roots Home

Atheism Home

Abner Kneeland

Atheist Musicians

Charles Watts

Charles Watts: Christianity

Culbert L. Olson (Gov.)

Edison

Edwin C. Walker

Elightenment, Freemasonry, Illuminati

Ernestine Rose

George J. Holyoake

G. J. Holyoake II

G. J. Holyoake: Logic of Death

Grant Allen

Grant Allen: Object of Life

Harlem Renaissance

Hubert Henry Harrison

James Lick

Kersey Graves

No More Ham

M. M. Mangasarian

Robert G. Ingersoll

Robert Owen

Robert Owen Declaration

Susan B. Anthony

Who Are The Freethinkers


As the Encyclopedia became the bible of the Enlightenment, Freemasonry became its ritual. The history of the craft is centuries old, "obscured", as one writer puts it, "by the blending of provable history and legend." 1 It was during the Middle Ages that guilds of builder-masons existed. Traveling from town to town, they worked on the massive cathedrals, castles and bridges; they were neither merchants nor fixed to the soil, but instead a mobile fraternity of skilled workers. As early as the 14th century, stonemasons had organized into companies or lodges. The craft was both respected and demanding, for it was the mason who was both skilled contractor and, in many cases, architect of a particular building project. 2

In the latter part of the century, the "Old Charges" were composed in some 115 documents outlining the nature, organization and functions of the craft. A 1425 manuscript traces the origins of masonry back to Euclid, through the construction of the Tower of Babel and Solomon's Temple. The Charges also established metaphorical principals and ethical standards to govern members of the guild.

Secrecy was common in most medieval craft guilds, and masonry was no exception. This mystification served to monopolize and control the knowledge of the craft, as well as to check renegade serfs from leaving their feudal bondage and joining the free and migratory trade of masonry. Scottish masons had invented passwords and special handshakes by the early 17th century, a ritual which soon spread throughout the lodges.

By the late 1600s, masons' guilds had enrolled growing numbers of "accepted" or "gentlemen" members who did not make their living directly from the mason trade. Some writers have accounted for this tendency by pointing to the growing interest in architecture amongst the nobility and landed. There was also the conviction among many, however, that the lodges, with their secrecy and symbolism, harbored certain hermetic truths handed down from ancient civilizations. Hard science (what little there was) still overlapped with occultism 3 and Masonry was transformed into a potpourri of cabalism, mythology, ritual and intellectual heterodoxy. By the early 1700s, the original emphasis on principles of stonemasonry had been transformed into allegories. Unhewn stone was said to symbolize "man in his infant or primitive state, rough and unpolished". Polished stone was, as a corollary, "man in the decline of years, after a regular well-spent life in acts of piety and virtue, which can not otherwise be tried and approved than by the Square of God's word and the Compass of his own self-convincing conscience."

Despite some of the biblical flavor of this symbolism, it was not necessarily Christian. The first masonic Book of Constitutions maintained that members of any religion could become Masons, "leaving their particular opinions (about god) to themselves...."

In 1717, a United Grand Lodge was formed in London, using Dr. John Anderson's Constitution to standardize the rituals and practices of Freemasonry. It was from this constitution that the masonic tales of Hiram Abiff, King Solomon's Master Builder, along with the pyramid style organizational model would date. Some Masons, however, calling themselves "Ancients" refused to acknowledge the regency of the Grand Lodge.

This "Grand Lodge Era" for English Masonry was deistic and politically somewhat conservative. Many Lodge members were clergy and the bulk of Masons were disposed toward the Hanoverian dynasty which ruled the country. Outright Atheism was a taboo, of course. Anderson had stipulated in his Constitution that:

A Mason is obliged, by his tenure, to obey the Moral Law: and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist nor an irreligious libertine....

The spread of Freemasonry, however, did not assure the uniformity and homogeneity found in the English lodges. A Paris lodge had been founded in 1725. In the minds of the Bourbons, the doctrine of religious and intellectual tolerance was inherently subversive. In 1737, Louis XV edicted that loyal subjects could not belong to the masonic order. The mere secrecy of the society, with its lore and awesome symbolism, was considered fertile soil for imaginative invective. Works bearing titles like The Grand Mystery of the Freemasons Discovered soon appeared. A letter in one popular English journal, The Gentleman's Magazine, declared that "Freemasons who have lately been suppressed not only in France, but in Holland 'were a dangerous race of Men'". 4

Europe in the 1700s, particularly the Continent, lacked the types of political organizations where opposition to existing authority could find expression. Even universities, often controlled by Jesuit administrations, were mere hand-maidens to the aristocracy. It was only natural, then, that secret societies and salons, lodges of the Freemasons and private reading clubs would become the focal points for the sedicious and "impious" activists of the Enlightenment. Masonry required that novitiates pass through a series of degrees, accompanied by symbolic ritual, whereupon the secrets of the craft were gradually unfolded; the metaphors of masonry, the remaking of humanity as early masons had remade rough stone, soon served as a revolutionary allegory. This became the new model of revolutionary organization — lodges of brothers, all seeking to reconstruct within their own circle an "inner light" to radiate forth wisdom into the world, to "illuminate" the sagacity of the Enlightenment. So pervasive and appealing was this notion that even relatively conservative and respected members of society could entertain the prospect of a new Utopia, "or at least a social alternative to the ancient regime...." 5

Within Masonry were constant splits and tendencies, making it all the more difficult to trace the threads of Atheistic thought. 6 Political and intellectual renegades of every sort, from Atheists to occultists, gravitated toward the lodges. There were the mystical and spiritualist masons of the Rosicrucians, 7 or the followers of the Sweeden-borgian heresy, both of which substituted for orthodox Christianity equally obtuse and absurd hermetic systems. There were lodges where one found somewhat conservative dispositions towards politics and religion, often loyal to the Grand Lodge in London. There were the bored aristocrats who, freed of the onerous task of earning a productive living, dabbled in alchemy, astrology and the search for the elusive Philosopher's Stone. But it was still within the lodges of Freemasonry where the ideas of the Enlightenment, with their siren call of revolution and Utopia, nurtured and spread.

By the end of the 1700s, the stigma attached to Free-masonry by clerical and civil authorities had taken hold. Clement XII issued his papal bull In Eminenti banning Masonry and forbidding lodge membership for Catholics. He declared:

For the sake of the peace and safety of civil governments, and spiritual safety of souls, and to prevent these men from plundering the House like thieves, laying waste the Vineyard like wolves, perverting the minds of the incautious and shooting down innocent people from their hiding places.... no Catholic was to be a Freemason.

Eleven other popes would condemn Freemasonry in the most vitriolic language possible. Leo XII lamented the fact that Christian princes and heads of state had not fully obeyed the Vatican in suppressing Masonry, "as the safety of both Church and State required", in the words of one Jesuit writer. Pius VIII declared of the Masons that "lying is their rule, Satan is their God, and shameful deeds their sacrifice....". Gregory XVI wrote that Masons and kindred secret brethern were comparable to a sewer in which "are congregated and intermingled all of the sacrileges, infamy and blasphemy which are contained in the most abominable heresies." Pius IX, outdoing his papal predecessors, condemned Masonry in six separate bulls between 1846 and 1873, denouncing "those baneful secret sects who have come forth from the darkness for the ruin and devastation of Church and State...." 8

It was in America where so many of the ideas of the Enlightenment were actually instituted. 9 It has been said that Europe conceptualized the Enlightenment, whereas America, with the establishment of an "enlightened republic", realized it. Freemasonry had come to colonial America about 1730; the bulk of the evidence suggests that most lodges were politically neutral "in the English tradition", although "...outstanding individuals... make a definite link between Freemasonry, the new political ideas, and the struggle for independence." 10 Not surprisingly, these figures were Atheists and deists, wary of the Christian theocracies of Europe. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) was a deist, signer of the Declaration of Independence, early opponent of slavery, advocate of the philosophy of progress and a founder of the American Philosophical Society. Along with the French Atheist and philosopher Helvetius (1715-1771), he was a member of the Paris "Lodge of the Nine Muses", one of the continental masonic groups where the "revolution was hatching". 11 After his initiation into the lodge in 1776, he went on to assume the post of Venerable Master. The Nine Muses (or "Nine Sisters" as it was later known) also printed the constitutions of all thirteen American states, becoming "the first school of constitutionalism that ever existed in Europe...." 12

George Washington became Charter Master of the Alexandria lodge, first president of the United States, and a vociferous advocate of fundamental Enlightenment ideas, including separation of state and church. 13

Thomas Jefferson would also serve as president, amidst the hysteria which would sweep Europe and America concerning Masonry and the Order of the Illuminati, it would be Jefferson who publically defended the Order and its founder, Adam Weishaupt. 14

Thomas Paine, pamphleteer of the Revolution, was an associate of many radical European Freemasons, including Nicholas Bonneville. Bonneville was a radical republican and head of a neo-masonic group known as "Friends of Truth", active during the French Revolution. Paine's Common Sense, published in January of 1776, echoed the masonic notion that "we have it in our power to begin the world over again...." Later, he argued against Edmund Burke in defense of the French Revolution, declaring in 1791:

What were formerly called revolutions were little more than a change of persons or an alteration of local circumstances ... what we now see in the world ... is a renovation of the natural order of things, a system of principles as universal as truth.... 15


Despite the masonic motto of "Liberty, Equality and Fraterity", revolution in America and revolution in Europe ultimately took distinctly different courses. The Enlightenment had given rise to diverse notions of how Utopia was to be reached. Many of the French philosphers, so repulsed by the brutalizing aspects of religious superstition, widespread poverty and political oppression 16 argued in defense of "enlightened despots", with Frederick the Great serving as a role-model. It was in 1740 that Voltaire first visited Frederick's court to discuss the ideas of the Enlightenment. Voltaire had been initiated into the Lodge of the Nine Muses, and Frederick had long been a Freemason, serving as Grand Master and head of the Scottish Rite. To his credit, Frederick helped secularize many of the institutions of Prussia during his reign.

It was these "enlightened despots" who, coached by the philosphers of the Enlightenment, were to usher in a new age, free of the incumbrances of religious superstition.

Others influenced by the Enlightenment were less trusting in the power and authority of a beneficent State.

William Godwin (1756-1836), anarchist and Atheist, represented one of the most consistent libertarian impulses of the Enlightenment, writing "Political Justice" in 1793. Even the followers of Jefferson, the republican, admired Godwin's anti-authoritarian sentiments and Jefferson, while a governmentalist at heart, spoke of "a little rebellion now and then" by the people to be "a good thing". Godwin's Atheism and anti-statism were handed down to two other figures in libertarian history, Michael Bakunin (1814-1876) and Pierre Joseph Proudhon (1809-1865), both Freemasons. When revolution again swept Europe in the mid-nineteenth century, it was the masonic model of organization which provided an organization blueprint for Bakunin's International Brotherhood and the Revolutionary Alliance. 17


Tracing the myriad threads and interconnection amongst countless lodges, reading societies and sects is something which, even today, constitutes relatively unexplored historical terrain. The revolutions and upheavals of the Enlightenment were the products of manifold forces and developments — economic, social, political and conspiratorial. Conservative polemicists, then as now, emphasize this conspiratorial dimension, at the cost of ignoring the profound historial developments sweeping Europe as well as the New World. Then as now, they portrayed social revolution as merely the design of hidden, arch-conspirators (a mythology which was, at times, accepted by conspirators as well). This is not to say that in those lodges and reading societies there were no conspiracies laid, no plans hatched — far from it. But the power and efficacy of those plots was not in actual practice, but in the myths created often by their adversaries. Nowhere is this more the case than with the notorious group known as the Order of the Illuminati.

Part II - The Illuminati

It is ironic, yet in a way fitting, that the most secret, yet historically popular manifestation of Enlightenment conspiratorialism was formed in Bavaria. It was here in the middle of the 18th century that the ideas of the Enlightenment met such hostility and censure from an entrenched clerical and aristocratic establishment. 18 One traveler reported the existence of some 28,000 churches and chapels; Munich, a city of only 40,000 boasted 17 convents. As one writer observed, "the degree of power to which the representatives of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) had been able to obtain in Bavaria was all but absolute". 19 It was in Bavaria on February 6, 1748 that Adam Weishaupt was born, son of a professor of canon law at the University of Ingolstadt. The father died when the boy was seven; the child's intensive education then rested in the hands of his godfather. Baron von Ickstatt, a member of the Privy Council. 20 Adam had free access to the Baron's magnificent library, which was well-stocked with the works of the Enlightenment philosophers.

The young Weishaupt graduated from the university in 1768, rising quickly within the Jesuit-dominated institution to become a full professor in 1733. 21 Despite his militant Atheism, he managed to become dean of the law faculty two years later at the age of 27.

Constantly at odds with university and ecclesiastical authorities, Weishaupt conceived the idea of forming a secret society, an order, organized along lines similar to the Jesuits, yet committed to the ideals of the Enlightenment. 22 Weishaupt had embraced the Rousseauian vision of a world free of the constraints of government and church, where humanity would exist in a universal community with nature.

Yet he was more than a visionary day-dreamer; he was prone to action, convinced that only the relentless work of a powerful secret order could counter the pernicious influences of the clergy. This contestation embraced Manichean symbolism, a war between light and darkness, between the illumination of reason and the sordid dark ignorance of religious superstition. LeForestier wrote that Weishaupt contemplated his scheme for several years and — after bickcring over an appropriate name — founded the Order of the Illuminati on May 1, 1776. 23 It was this order which was to become, in the words of the Jesuit polemicist Abbe Barruel, "the conspiracy of the sophisters of Impiety and Anarchy against every religion natural or revealed...." 24

Unfortunately, Barruel's four-volume work has come to constitute one of the few sources of information on the Order of the Illuminati. The Abbe labeled Weishaupt:

...an odious phenomenon in nature, an Atheist void of remourse, a profound hypocrite, destitute of those superior talents which lead to the vindication of truth, he is possessed of all that energy and ardour in vice which generates conspirators for impiety and anarchy.

Continuing, Barruel claims the Order's Chief to be:

...head of a conspiracy which, when compared with those of the clubs of Voltaire and D'Alambert, or with the secret committees of D'Orleans, make these latter appear like the faint imitations of puerility, and show the sophister and the Brigand as mere novices in the arts of revolution.




Borrowing from the masonic model, Weishaupt structured the Order in pyramid-like fashion, with novices starting at the bottom degree of 'minerval', and receiving training in a network of minerval academies. These circles met each month to discuss recruitment and the various tasks of the Order; there was also a thorough schooling in those "impious" works of the day, such as the writings of the Enlightenment philosophers. Minervals were often selected and enticed into the society by 'insinuators'; each candidate was required to complete an exhaustive autobiography of himself, his strengths, weaknesses and interests, as well as a statement of why he sought admission into the Illuminati.

The minerval academies also had the task of obtaining books and other literary materials useful to the Order, with the distant goal of establishing an institute for Enlightenment scholars, a library which would be an intellectual armory for use in the battle with, particularly, the witty Jesuits.

Those candidates who displayed an appreciation and interest in progressive Enlightenment ideals, as well as opposition and distaste for civil and ecclesiastical authority, would gradually be admitted to the higher grades of the Order. It was here that the true objectives of Illuminism were revealed. Far from being a mere study group or reading society that had no social or political goals, the Order was, in truth, to be a mechanism for the promulgation of the very "Impiety and Anarchy" denounced by Barruel. The Order was to work incessantly for the day, in Weishaupt's words, when

Princes and Nations shall disappear from off the face of the earth! Yes, a time shall come when man shall acknowledge no other law but the great book of nature; this revelation shall be the work of Secret Societies and that is one of our grand mysteries. ...25

Weishaupt eschewed the notion of seizing existing political structures, something truly exceptional for most revolutionists; men had to be re-made, as the stonemason shaped rock into a thing of harmony, beauty and perfection. "The grand art of rendering any revolution," he wrote, "whatsoever certain is to enlighten the people — and to enlighten them is, insensibly to turn the public opinion to the adoption of those changes which are the given objects of the intended revolution. ..." Illuminists at all grades were to apply themselves "to acquiring of interior and exterior perfection", a perfection which would, through the works of the Order, illuminate the entire world with reason and good deeds.

Such ideas and activities were prohibited not only in Bavaria but throughout most of Europe. The circulation of books and tracts was still regulated in a number of countries, 26 and the heavy hand of Jesuit intrigue remained, despite official disbandings of the Society in 1773. The Order did its work in secret, constantly fearing exposure to civil authority and the clergy. Indeed, at the lower level of the minerval academies, the order postured itself as having no interest in politics or religion per se, and concerned only with altruistic deeds based on the life of Jesus Christ!

Weishaupt's Order grew slowly, reaching a membership of 200-300, when the Marquis d'Costanza, acting as an insinuator, recruited Baron Adolph von Knigge in 1778. Knigge (1752-1796) was a noted German playwrite and novelist, who had translated Mozart's Magic Flute, an opera abundant with masonic allegory and symbolism. 27

Knigge was already a member of the masonic sect known as the Rite of Strict Observance, formed originally to combat the mystical and occult tendencies within Freemasonry. Despite his interest in occultism as a hobby, however, Knigge was an Atheist. 28

Following the Illuminist practice of adopting classical pseudonyms, Knigge was known henceforth as 'Philo'. Weishaupt had chosen the name of 'Spartacus', after the Thracian-Roman slave who lead a series of slave rebellions in 73-71 b.c., before falling to the imperial armies of Crassus. It was Baron Knigge who helped graft on to the Illuminati much of the ritual of Freemasonry but Weishaupt had dabbled in masonry several years before forming his Order, and considered it of little use in furthering his own purposes. It was Baron Xaverius von Zwack ('Cato'), a member of the Areopagites, or ruling council of Illuminism, who had begun the process of recruiting minervals from within masonic lodges. As a result of this, along with the tireless efforts of Knigge, the Order swelled in size to over 2,000 and extended throughout much of Europe. Each country had a national director who presided over a network of inspectors; they in turn carried on the business of the Order with the help of provincial aides, working down to the city level and minerval academy level.

Membership in the Order included some of the major figures of the German Enlightenment. Christopher Nicolai, a German Atheist, writer, critic and bookseller (1733-1811) was Master of the Berlin lodge. He co-founded the critical journal Bibliothek der Shonen Wissenschaffen und Freien Kunste, and collaborated in numerous literary reviews. Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744-1803), German philosopher, Atheist and composer was an Illuminist, as was Johann Wolfgang Goethe (1749-1823), German philosopher, writer and privy councilor. Goethe is best known, perhaps, as the creator of Faust, which some have speculated to be an Illuminist allegory.

At the zenith of its power and influence, the Order had perhaps as many as 3,000 members. The lodge at Munich, along with six other circles throughout Bavaria, boasted some 600 members in minerval and advanced degrees.

Illuminist organizations existed in Poland, Holland, England and France, often working within the masonic lodges which had become "illuminized" during the Congress of Wilhelmsbad in 1782. 29

The inevitable stresses of operating such a society, with the constant threat of banishment and public exposure, along with Weishaupt's own predeliction for secrecy and organizational detail, all took their devastating toil. As the order grew in numbers, so did the possibility of factionalism, inter-organizational strife and betrayal. The Order, so dedicated to the perfection of mankind, soon found itself immersed in the travails of bureaucracy and the imperfections of present-day human nature. Spartacus-Weishaupt wrote to Cato in August, 1783:

I am deprived of help. Socrates, who would insist on having a position of trust amongst us, and is really a man of talent, of the right way of thinking, is certainly drunk. Augustus' reputation could not be worse. Alcibiades does nothing but sit all day long with the vinter's pretty wife and spends his whole time in sighing and pinning with love. ... Tiberius attempted to ravish the wife of Democides, and her husband took them in the act. ...

So disillusioned with his undertaking at times was Weishaupt that he wrote, in anticipation of the arrival of a prominant candidate for membership in the Order, that the minerval would balk at joining a society of "dissolute, immoral wretches, whoremasters, liars, bankrupts, braggarts and vain fools.... " 30

Seized correspondence of the Illuminati, exhibited by Barruel, indicates that a growing portion of Weishaupt's activity was expended in maintaining a semblance of control of some of the freewheeling Illuminists. In one letter, Spartacus told a provincial lodge director that a "worthy Brother of the highest rank in the Order" has stolen jewelry from another member. Would the director implore the Brother to return his loot to its rightful owner? Despite his goal to "fit man by illumination for active virtue", even Weishaupt was caught up in the tragi-comedy; "I am in danger of losing at once my honour and reputation", he wrote, "by which I have had long such influence", and revealed that he had gotten his sister-in-law pregnant. Attempts to secure abortion failed, and Weishaupt was forced to consumate the cuckholding-marriage following the birth of a son.

Added to this were the problems inherent from the Congress of Wilhelmbad; despite gains made there in recruiting new members (such as Knigge), the victory in Illuminizing so much of Preemasonry was by no means total. Illuminist propaganda against the church had been traced to Lodge Theodore, which was dominated by the Order. The Bavarian elector directed that inquiries be made and the lodge was ordered dissolved. The closing of other lodges was soon ordered, as it became obvious to investigators that there was a conspiracy afoot against state and church; the inevitable quislings within the Illuminati soon appeared. Other factions of Masonry such as the Rosicrucians used this opportunity as well, and some Illuminists countered by theorizing that Jesuits were behind the plot to disband the Order. 31 Worse yet was the growing animosity between Weishaupt and Knigge; Philo labeled Spartacus a tyrant, while the embattled Weishaupt condemned his former associate for his growing obsession with occultism and ritual. The ultimate defection of Knigge helped seal the fate of the Order of the Illuminati. Disillusioned by the course of events, four university professors in the lower degrees of the Order disclosed their secret knowledge to the elector, charging that the sect posed a threat to Christianity, condoned epicurean pleasure, justified suicide, 32 and taught that "the end justified the means" if it served a noble cause. In 1785, with police raids, public trials and banishments, the Order was abolished.

Weishaupt was dismissed from his post at the University of Ingolstadt and was given a pension of some 40 pounds, which he refused. He then journeyed to Regenburg, where he began a pamphlet war with his Apologie der Illuminaten as a defense of the Order. He subsequently found refuge in the estate of the Count of Saxe-Gotha, Ernest, a member of the Illuminati. Weishaupt later became a professor at the University of Gottingen, where he published critical works on Kantian philosophy. He died there in 1830, his marvelous Order disbanded, and the world little closer to the illuminated heights which he had sought for it. In his defense, Weishaupt wrote:

I have contrived an explanation which has every advantage, is inviting to Christians of every communion, gradually frees them from all religious prejudices, cultivates the social virtues, and animates them by a great, a feasible, and a speedy prospect of universal happiness, in a state of liberty and moral equality, freed from the obstacles which subordination, rank and riches continually throw in our way. My explanation is accurate and complete; my means are effectual and irresistible. Our secret association works in a way that nothing can withstand, and man shall soon be free and happy....

To fit man by Illumination for active virtue, to engage him to it by the strongest motives, to render the attainment of it easy and certain ... this indeed will be employment suited to noble natures, grand in its views, and delightful in its exercise....

And what is the general object? THE HAPPINESS OF THE HUMAN RACE.... When we see the wicked so powerful and the good so weak, and that it is in vain to strive singly and alone against the general current of vice and oppression, the wish naturally arises in the mind that if it were possible to form a durable combination of the most worthy persons, who should work together in removing the obstacles to human happiness... and by fettering lessen vice; means which at the same time should promote virtue, by rendering the inclination to rectitude, hitherto so feeble, more powerful and engaging. Would not such an association be a blessing to the world?

One writer has posed the question of whether the Order of the Illuminati was any better than the world it sought to reform? Would the order, had it succeeded, been a blessing or a curse? And we are still today left with the question of why Illuminism failed in its enterprise.

Government and clerical harassment, the denial of fundamental rights of freedom of speech and press — these obviously were responsible, in large part, for the death of the sublime Order, Repression and intolerance necessitate an infectious secrecy which cannot help but contaminate those whom it touches. The task of promoting ideas soon became bogged down in the mire of conspiracy, degrees of revelation, secrets and mysteries, despite the lofty goals and vision. The genius of Adam Weishaupt was no exception in this case.

Most who have written of the Illuminati have had little, if any, good sentiments regarding the Order. They have called Weishaupt a knave, a despot, abortionist, heretic, demagogue, and traitor to his friends. We know from his correspondence, however, that he was a man vitally concerned with social justice, the struggle against political tyranny, and the Atheist ideal. We know also that despite his personal shortcomings, he sought fervently "the happiness of the human race." Indeed, perhaps some day the Order of the Illuminati will be seen as a "blessing to the world."

Part III - Aftermath

The disbanding of the Order of the Illuminati by the Bavarian Elector failed to dissipate the festering rumors of the sect's influence and size. Within certain segments of the state and church, it was thought that the Order had burrowed still further underground, and was at work throughout the continent under many different guises. Barruel's lengthy polemic against Jacobinism and Illuminism went into print in England a full thirteen years later, in 1798. A similar work by the English royalist John Robison, titled Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All Religions and Governments of Europe, was published in Britain and New York that same year. Both authors claimed that Illuminism had survived the persecution in Bavaria, although the Abbe Barruel considered Illuminism to be a manifestation of a far greater Atheistic evil, namely Jacobinism. The Jacobins were one of the most radical, anti-clerical and at times despotic factions during the French Revolution of 1789; ironically, they adopted their name from a dominican order of priests, whose seized monestary served as the jacobin meeting place.

Other elements within Freemasonry also capitalized on the exposure of the Illuminists. The Rosicrucians, active within the masonic lodges of Prussia, warned their fellow Masons of the Atheistic and revolutionary doctrines of the Illuminati. Robison himself was a Freemason who considered Illuminism to be a perversion of the craft; history does not record whether or not he was a Rosicrucian, although Robison does not explain the widespread popularity of Illuminist ideas within so much of continental masonry.

Nevertheless, the exposure of the Illuminati created "enormous confusion...about the whole world of Masonry, secret societies and sects." 33 The myth of Illuminist invincibility (something which the crafty Weishaupt had worked hard to create!) was nurtured by rumors that the Order survived in the German Union, created by Carl Frederick Bahrdt (1741-1792). Bahrdt was a militant Atheist who had suffered on account of his anti-clerical satires; he founded the Union with other Atheists as a reading society dedicated to the circulation of Enlightenment works. Ironically, it was the Illuminist Areopagite, Bode, who thought the idea of such a group to be foolhardy. No firm historical evidence links the Order of the Illuminati to the German Union; if anything, the Order survived only as ideas, rather than a working organization.

Such ruminations, however, ignited panic in the New World following the French Revolution, as official religion and puritan institutions in America were in decline. The early American colonies had all of the trappings of feudal theocracies; each colony had, in effect, an established and tax-funded church of the Christian religion. 34 In Virginia, there were laws which provided the death penalty for speaking against the divinity or tenents of the Christian faith. Delaware prohibited anyone who was not a believer in "Trinitarian Christianity" from holding a public office. South Carolina officially declared "the Christian protestant" form of superstition to be "the established religion of the State", adding: "That God is pubicly to be worshipped" and "That the Christian Religion is the true religion." 35

The founding fathers with their deistic persuasions no doubt looked with disfavor on the constant feuding within assorted Christian sects, each of which sought hegemony over the others. One can also find that these prominent deists and skeptics were often Freemasons, among them Franklin, Washington and Jefferson.

Revolutionary America was a period of official disestablishment of the assorted state religions. 36 Virginia enacted a Declaration of Rights on June 12, 1776, which provided for "free exercise of religion", and not favoring any one religious sect. That same year, religions were disestablished in Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania; in 1777, New York, Georgia and North Carolina followed suit. Local and state laws against theatre were repealed, along with censorship laws as well — all to the consternation of ministers throughout the country. 37

All of this—the collapse of traditional puritan institutions, and the dis-establishment of religious bodies — created a wide-spread neurosis and anxiety throughout religious groups. Worse still for the churches, out of some 4 million persons living in America in 1790, religious groups could claim only about 5% on their scanty membership rolls. Staunch clergymen chose every conceivable theme and incident to exploit in the quest for new followers; the discord of the times, along with the deteriorating condition of America's relations with France, were no exception. John Adams had declared May 9, 1798 to be a day of fasting and prayer, "to implore Heaven's mercy and benediction on the imperiled nation...." 38 It was on this day that the Illuminati hysteria in the New World began.

One of the many ministers who preached to their congregations that day was Rev. Jedediah Morse of Boston. He was known as a fiery orator, geographer and even an early supporter of the revolution in France. His enthusiasm for the revolution waned, however, with the "astonishing increase in irreligion" precipitated by The Terror, and the subsequent rise of brazen Atheism. Morse warned his North Church Street audience that similar forces were at work in America. Historian Vernon Stauffer observed:

If, said Morse, a contributory cause for the present "hazardous and afflictive position" of the country is sought, it will readily be found in "the astonishing increase of irreligion". The evidence of this, in turn, is to be found, not only in the prevailing atheism and materialism of the day, and all the vicious fruits which such impious sentiments have borne, but as well as the slanders with which newspapers are filled and the personal invective and abuse with which private discussion is laden, all directed against the representatives of government, against man, many of whom have grown gray in their country's service and whose integrity has been proved incorruptible. It is likewise to be discovered in the reviling and abuse which, coming from the same quarter, has been directed against the clergy, who, according to their influence and ability, have done what they could to support and vindicate the government....

When the question is raised respecting the design and tendency of these things, their inherent and appalling impiety is immediately disclosed. They "give reason to suspect that there is some secret plan in operation, hostile to true liberty and religion, which requires to be aided by these vile slanders".... 39

Morse maintained that such a master plan did exist, the fruition of which had already been achieved in France, and was being put into action throughout the rest of Europe and America as well. Conjuring John Robison, Morse went on to warn that during the past two decades, a sect calling themselves "The Illuminated" had plotted against thrones and altars everywhere, and had established itself in the United States. Jacobinism, the hidden "manifestation of the Illuminati" was at work" 40, and Thomas Paine's Age of Reason was regarded as part of a general plan to accomplish "demoralization of the people".

Morse was careful not to mention Freemasonry as part of his plot; in this respect, he had followed Robison's lead, maintaining that Illuminism had been grafted onto the craft, and represented a corruption of masonic doctrine. Morse's sermon, along with the circulation of Barruel's Memoirs and Robison's Proofs of a Conspiracy soon created widespread alarm throughout New England. Such conspiracy theories were sufficiently vague yet tantalizing to explain, to the superficial and the uninformed, many of the events taking place in the land. There indeed was a spirit of irreligion loose in the country, and the old puritan institutions were crumbling. The ideas of the Enlightenment were being realized here on a number of levels, including political rights as well as the dedication to material progress; but all of this was due to a number of complex historical and economic forces, not the midnight plots of small bands of intriguers. 41

The public debate which followed Morse's revelations in countless New England journals such as the Independent Chronical and the Massachusetts Mercury, failed to produce any evidence that Illuminism had survived the persecution of the Bavarian authorities and lived to organize lodges in the New World. The letters and exchanges debated Robison's book in particular with razor-tongued ferocity; and as a consequence, more heat than light was cast on the entire question. No lodges were uncovered, no names revealed.

Thomas Jefferson, who would later stand accused of being part of a non-existent Illuminist conspiracy in the New World, had read Barruel's scurrilous work about the order. Like many, even he accepted part of Weishaupt's rationale in defense of Illuminism found in the chief's Aopologie der Illuminaten. In a letter to Bishop Madison in January, 1800, Jefferson wrote:

I have lately by accident got a sight of a single volume (the 3d) of the Abbe Barruel's Antisocial Conspiracy, which gives me the first idea I have ever had of what is meant by the Illuminatism against which Illuminate Morse, as he is now called, and his ecclesiastical associates have been making such a hue and cry. Barruel's own parts of the book are perfectly the ravings of a Bedlamite. But he quotes largely from Wishaupt whom he considers as the founder of what he calls the order. As you may not have had an opportunity as forming a judgment of this cry of 'mad dogs' which has been raised against his doctrines, I will give you the idea I have formed from only an hour's reading of Barruel's quotations from him, which, you may be sure, are not the most favorable. Wishaupt seems to be an enthusiastic philanthropist. He is among those (as you know the excellent Price and Priestley also are) who believes in the infinite perfectability of man. He thinks he may in time be rendered so perfect that he will be able to govern himself in every circumstance, so as to injure none, to do all the good he can, to leave government no occasion to exercise their powers over him, and, of course, to render political government useless. This, you know, is Godwin's doctrine, and that is what Robinson , Barruel, and Morse had called a conspiracy against all government...." 42

Not surprisingly, certain Catholic writers blamed the "virus" of Preemasonry for nearly every political assassination, revolution and war of the nineteenth century. 43 Their "evidence" for such a claim is a potpourri of facts and myths; particularly in the eyes of the Vatican, the agents of Masonry were to be found everywhere doing their diabolical dirty work.

No sooner had the Illuminati hysteria died down than a new wave of paranoia over Masonry swept the country. An anti-masonic movement emerged during the early to mid-1800s on several occasions, one of which even ran candidates for public office.

Illuminism's spectre rose again in the early 1900s with the writings of Nesta Webster, a writer who enjoyed considerable popularity in Tory circles in Britain. Her voluminous outpourings warned of plots, secret societies, Illuminists and Masons, all of whom were determined to bring down the edifices of state and church. By now, the legend of the Illuminati was more powerful than truth; Webster, writing in The Nineteenth Century, quoted Vernon Stauffer's work claiming that "As early as 1786, a Lodge of the Order had been started in Virginia, and this was followed by fourteen others in different cities ... no, Illuminism is not dead. 44 ln fact, Stauffer had debunked such rumors and mythologies; Webster had quoted as established fact something which Stauffer reported as unsubstantiated rumor. Stauffer analyzed the Illuminist hysteria in terms not only of the decay of puritan institutions, but in the intrigues of Federalist vs. anti-Federalist politics. For Webster, however, Jews, Cabalists, Freemasons, Anarchists, Illuminists, occultists and heretics of all varieties were linked in a grand conspiracy running back through history to establish what some imaginatively termed an "Occult Theocracy".


The ubiquitous paranoia about Freemasonry, along with the voracious gullability of Catholics, proved fertile ground for one of the greatest literary hoaxes of all time, designed by an Atheist-satirist known as Leo Taxil. Born Gabriel Antoine Jogand-Pages (1854-1907), he was educated by the Jesuits, but soon became a militant Atheist and anti-clerical propagandist. He authored a variety of anti-religious skits and satires beginning when he was 25 including A Humorous Bible, The Skullcap and its Wearers, and A Humorous Gospel, or the Life of Jesus. He was particularly adept at ridiculing the sleezy lifestyles of the decadent popes, along with sacred doctrine and religious taboo. He served as secretary of the Anti-Clerical League in France, which boasted some 15,000 members, and edited the society's newspaper, Anti-Clericale. Earlier, he had published La Marotte (Fool's Bauble), an Atheist journal of humor and insult, and in 1880 founded a Society of Freethinkers. (Accounts vary, but his society may have either merged with or been renamed the Anti-Clerical League.)

One of Taxil's collaborators was another Atheist, a Dr. Karl Hacks, who wrote under the pseudonym Bataille. In 1892, the two began issuing a serial publication known for its infamous title, The Devil in the Nineteenth Century, a satirical expose of Freemasonry and Satanism. The work began by referring to Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Humanum Genus, wherein the holy father divided all of humanity into two warring camps — those who worship the one, true Christian god, and those who serve Lucifer. (After the hoax had been exposed, Hacks remarked that no sooner had he and Taxil read Leo's encyclical than he perceived "a rare opportunity to coin money out of the mass credulity and boundless stupidity of the Catholics ...") From this inspiration was born The Devil, Taxil and Hacks set to work; "sometimes I fabricated the most incredible stories", wrote Taxil, "as, for example, that of a serpent inditing prophecies with its tail..."

The Devil in the Nineteenth Century is truly a collection of outrageous, unsupported and amusing tales; the gist of the story involves progressive revelations about Freemasons and other secret societies and their drive to establish some kind of Luciferian theocracy on earth (one strangely resembling the City of God, but with a different twist!)

All of this was set against the background of "the most comical episode of his (Taxil's) strange career", a supposed return to the fold of the church. While writing a book on the life of Joan of Arc, designed to incite animosity amongst the clergy, Taxil was (so the story goes) overwhelmed by returned sentiments of religiosity. "I burst into sobs", revealed Taxil in his comical Confession. "Pardon me, oh God!, I cried out in a voice choked with tears. Pardon my many blasphemies! Pardon all the evil I have wrought! I passed the night in prayer, and resolved on the next day to seek absolution for my sins.... " 45 Taxil immediately withdrew from public Atheistic activities, resigning at a meeting of the Anti-Clerical League. Accounts suggest that few of his Atheist cohorts believed in Taxil's born-again religiosity, "yet every one was puzzled to understand the strategic purpose of this retrograde movement...." Some cried "Ha! You can't fool us! You've been paid by the Vatican! How much, eh?"

Taxil immediately set to work in writing the first segment of his sham-expose, his Complete Revelations, overflowing with imaginary and gruesome tales of devil worship, debauchery and sacrilegious rites. The Catholic press, taken in, greeted the smirking Taxil and his revelations with exultations, boasting that the works "combined positive and irrefutable proofs of the diabolical character of the Masonic mysteries". By 1887, Taxil had conned his way into a private audience with Leo XIII, who informed Jorgand that he was an avid reader of the Revelations.. ..and Taxil left the Vatican with a papal benediction as well as "the conclusion that he could imagine nothing so absurd that it would not be received in Catholic circles as authentic and indorsed by infallible authority...." 46

Catholic presses continued to grind out Taxil's fantastic literature for the church-going gullible when he and Bataille-Hacks began publication of The Devil in the Nineteenth Century. This literary fantasy told the story of Albert Pike, a Grand Master of Freemasonry residing in Charleston, South Carolina, whom the book called "the satanic pope". The real Pike was a colorful and controversial figure in the history of the craft. Pike served as a general in the Confederate Army during the Civil War; after mustering out, he developed an interest in Masonry and ancient languages (it was reported he was fluent in some two dozen tongues, many of them considered "dead languages"). He rose within Freemasonry to become grand commander of the Scottish Rite, and head of the Southern Jurisdiction in the United States.

Taxil and Bataille named Albert Pike as head of a mysterious Luciferian conspiracy known as the New Paladian Rite, headquartered in Charleston, S.C. with affiliated temples in Washington, Rome, Montevideo, Naples and Calcutta. Taxil also fantasized a device (years before the invention of radio) where Pike could communicate with his masonic stooges throughout the world at the touch of a button; the satanic pope even had a bracelet to summon Lucifer for consultation at any time. 47 "One day Satan took Pike gently in his arms and made a trip with him to Sirius", wrote Taxil, "traversing the whole distance in a few minutes. After exploring the fixed star, he was brought back safe and sound to his room in Washington...."

The Devil also told of a labyrinth of underground laboratories beneath the cliffs of Gibralter, staffed by mischievous demons under the leadership of one Tubal-Cain. Here, Satan's chemists worked around the clock concocting flus and epidemics to be spread amongst Christians everywhere. (Tubal-Cain, by the way, reportedly spoke fluent French.) And more fantasy: in the town of Freiburg, Switzerland was to be found a Masonic temple hewn out of rock for use during the satanic mass. Naked men and women engaged in irreligious and erotic outrages, including stabbing holy wafers which had been stolen by Jews from Catholic churches.

The spicy comedy was not complete, however, without one Miss Diana Vaughn, whom Taxil presented to society as a descendant of the Rosicrucian alchemist Thomas Vaughn. 48 The lady claimed to possess a signed contract between her famous ancestor and Satan himself, dated March 25, 1625. Miss Vaughn was supposedly born in Paris on February 29, 1874 — a most ingenious feat, considering that in that particular year there was no February 29. Having been raised on strictly Luciferian principles, she purportedly one day expressed doubt to her satanic mentors as to the worthiness of Cain and Abel as paragons of diabolical virtue. It was quickly ascertained that the youngster was possessed by the Christian angel Raphael, and in need of immediate exorcism, lest she fall prey to the one, true god. Exorcism was performed, "the whole process of which, as described by Taxil ... a clever travesty of the ceremonial prescribed by the Romish church for the expulsion of evil spirits...." In any case, the ritual was a success and "Raphael" was driven out.

Few, if any within official Catholicism, grasped the humor in Taxil's devastating parody on Leo's "Exorcisimus in Satanam et Angelos Spostatas", issued by the pope in 1890.

Her body restored to health, Miss Vaughn was placed in the care of Asmodeus, one of the major satanic functionaries. The demon sometimes approached her in the form of a handsome suitor emitting the strong aroma of balsam. He escorted her on pleasure trips and short jaunts to purgatory, even wisking her to the planet Mars where the two visited Schiaparelli's canals and strolled amongst the pygmie inhabitants of the Red Planet.

Throughout this entire episode, Catholics everywhere gorged themselves with such incredulous fabrications, all spun by the poker-faced Taxil and his collaborator, Dr. Bataille. The Catholic journal The Month 49 wrote glowingly of Taxil's conversion to the church and his subsequent revelations about Masonry, noting that "an instance of conversion as that of Leo Taxil ought to at least encourage us to hope that there may be many such."

In fact, Taxil had fooled all Christiandom: "My colleagues were aghast and exclaimed 'You'll spoil the whole joke with your nonsense!' 'Bah', I replied, let me be and you will see!'"

Taxil promoted his Complete Revelations and The Devil until 1897, when public pressure demanded the persona of Miss Diana Vaughn, the reformed Luciferian. Taxil called a press conference on April 19; mounting the platform before the assembled reporters and observers, he confessed his ruse to a bewildered public — "After thanking the clergy for their aid in carrying out his scheme and attributing their cooperation chiefly to ignorance and imbecility, he escaped amidst much confusion." 50

Yet this revelation — that Taxil the Convert was, in reality, the same old Taxil, who had hoaxed and satired religion before — did not serve to convince all true believers. One Catholic writer maintained that the man who called the press conference was really an impostor, and that Masons had kidnapped the real Taxil. Still another insisted that Diana Vaughn failed to appear because Freemasons had bribed Taxil into placing her in a lunatic asylum. The Pelican, another Catholic magazine, still supported Taxil's revelations about devil-worship and Masonry, insisting that Freemasons, Jews, Luciferians and their comrades carried out many of the attrocities described by Taxil and Bataille. It was further asserted that in July 1897, Jews absconded with consecrated wafers from a church in Silesia, whereupon the plot was uncovered by a Polish nobleman.

Thus ended one of the great literary hoaxes in history, a battle of pen and wits which the church clearly lost. Taxil returned to the anti-clerical movement, being recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia as "one of the most notorious religious hoaxers of the nineteenth century."


The linkage of Freemasonry with the most bizarre rituals and practices, at least in the Christian imagination, was cemented still further by yet another spurious collection of writings known as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The Protocols are taunted as a masterplan hatched at a secret meeting of zionists in 1897, held in Berne, Switzerland. Depending on whose account one reads, the meeting was run by Jews, Masons, Luciferians, the Illuminati, international bankers, or other un-touchable types. With the intent of bringing about the decay of Christian civilization, the Protocols pledge:

...to corrupt the young generation by subversive education, dominate people through their vices, destroy family life, undermine respect for religion, encourage luxury, amuse people to prevent them from thinking, poison the spirit by destructive theories, weaken human bodies by inoculation with microbes, foment international hatred and prepare for universal bankruptcy and concentration of gold in the hands of the Jews." 51

Since their inception, the Protocols have been incendiary fuel for everyone from Nazis to fundamentalist Christians. Hitler mentions the Protocols in Mein Kampf, maintaining the existence of a jewish plot against Christianity, in league with Freemasonry.

The Protocols are actually a plagarism of an early tract called Dialogues in the Underworld Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, penned in 1865 by Maurice Jouly as a satire on Napoleon III. The evolution of these Dialogues into the Protocols, with appropriate additions and rewritings is less important here than is the fact that they are, like Taxil's creations, historical forgeries.

Given human credulity, it is not surprising that the mythology of the Protocols, the revelations of Taxil-Bataille, the fantasies of Barruel and Robison, and other assorted tales about Masonry and Illuminism persist to this very day. Little objective, scholarly work has been done, in this century, on the Illuminists, although there are over 10,000 pieces on Freemasonry. Taxil's satire is still taken seriously by segments of the Christian community such as the Cinema Educational Guild and the Christian Defense League; several popular books in right-wing circles still repeat the more bizarre tales of The Devil in the Nineteenth Century, and claim to link the defunct Order of the Illuminati to events today. More than two centuries after the founding of the Order, there is more fiction than fact to represent its philosophy, its accomplishments, its aspirations and its demise.

Epilogue

What then can we say of Illuminism and Freemasonry from the Atheist perspective? Certainly, it was in Freemasonry that much of the Atheism and deism of the Enlightenment was nurtured. The metaphors of creating new edifices from raw, unfinished stone, of Grafting and transforming the world to create new structures were themes which intertwined with the whole spirit of the Enlightenment. Ironically, it was when this philosophy was kept most secret and subjugated to the most conspiratorial organizational forms, that it failed. Despite Weishaupt's carefully laid plans, the Order of the Illuminati did not and could not succeed.

In a period of almost total church seizure of all political, economic and cultural institutions. Atheism was sheltered in countless lodge and sect meetings. Today, Masonry (particularly in the United States) has decayed to the status of a social club, 52 having lost its revolutionary character, becoming a symbol of the bourgeoisie. It is somewhat more radical in Europe, especially in France, where the Grand Orient readily admits Athei

  

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RemyMartin
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340. "That seems like a good history..."
In response to Reply # 324


  

          

...but it kinda goes against what you're trying to prove.

"Conservative polemicists, then as now, emphasize this conspiratorial dimension, at the cost of ignoring the profound historial developments sweeping Europe as well as the New World. Then as now, they portrayed social revolution as merely the design of hidden, arch-conspirators (a mythology which was, at times, accepted by conspirators as well). This is not to say that in those lodges and reading societies there were no conspiracies laid, no plans hatched — far from it. But the power and efficacy of those plots was not in actual practice, but in the myths created often by their adversaries. Nowhere is this more the case than with the notorious group known as the Order of the Illuminati."

This is what you were trying to say?

"More than two centuries after the founding of the Order, there is more fiction than fact to represent its philosophy, its accomplishments, its aspirations and its demise."

So...the Illuminati has "demised" (I don't believe that, but that's what the article you posted says)

"Ironically, it was when this philosophy was kept most secret and subjugated to the most conspiratorial organizational forms, that it failed. Despite Weishaupt's carefully laid plans, the Order of the Illuminati did not and could not succeed."

Secrecy is what killed it. Not sure about that either.

"Today, Masonry (particularly in the United States) has decayed to the status of a social club, 52 having lost its revolutionary character, becoming a symbol of the bourgeoisie."

Social club...but, in Europe they're more open to Atheist.

How does this support what you're saying?

======
FLASH!!

  

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Yank
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362. "On the contrary"
In response to Reply # 340
Thu Aug-09-07 11:01 PM by Yank

  

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt

Adam Weishaupt is the founder of the Illuminati

**finger guns**

  

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RemyMartin
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367. "That article contradicts your conspiracy theory."
In response to Reply # 362


  

          

======
FLASH!!

  

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Yank
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368. "No it doesn't"
In response to Reply # 367


  

          

here lemme show you more than one paragraph........



Part II - The Illuminati

It is ironic, yet in a way fitting, that the most secret, yet historically popular manifestation of Enlightenment conspiratorialism was formed in Bavaria. It was here in the middle of the 18th century that the ideas of the Enlightenment met such hostility and censure from an entrenched clerical and aristocratic establishment. 18 One traveler reported the existence of some 28,000 churches and chapels; Munich, a city of only 40,000 boasted 17 convents. As one writer observed, "the degree of power to which the representatives of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) had been able to obtain in Bavaria was all but absolute". 19 It was in Bavaria on February 6, 1748 that Adam Weishaupt was born, son of a professor of canon law at the University of Ingolstadt. The father died when the boy was seven; the child's intensive education then rested in the hands of his godfather. Baron von Ickstatt, a member of the Privy Council. 20 Adam had free access to the Baron's magnificent library, which was well-stocked with the works of the Enlightenment philosophers.

The young Weishaupt graduated from the university in 1768, rising quickly within the Jesuit-dominated institution to become a full professor in 1733. 21 Despite his militant Atheism, he managed to become dean of the law faculty two years later at the age of 27.

Constantly at odds with university and ecclesiastical authorities, Weishaupt conceived the idea of forming a secret society, an order, organized along lines similar to the Jesuits, yet committed to the ideals of the Enlightenment. 22 Weishaupt had embraced the Rousseauian vision of a world free of the constraints of government and church, where humanity would exist in a universal community with nature.

Yet he was more than a visionary day-dreamer; he was prone to action, convinced that only the relentless work of a powerful secret order could counter the pernicious influences of the clergy. This contestation embraced Manichean symbolism, a war between light and darkness, between the illumination of reason and the sordid dark ignorance of religious superstition. LeForestier wrote that Weishaupt contemplated his scheme for several years and — after bickcring over an appropriate name — founded the Order of the Illuminati on May 1, 1776. 23 It was this order which was to become, in the words of the Jesuit polemicist Abbe Barruel, "the conspiracy of the sophisters of Impiety and Anarchy against every religion natural or revealed...." 24

Unfortunately, Barruel's four-volume work has come to constitute one of the few sources of information on the Order of the Illuminati. The Abbe labeled Weishaupt:

...an odious phenomenon in nature, an Atheist void of remourse, a profound hypocrite, destitute of those superior talents which lead to the vindication of truth, he is possessed of all that energy and ardour in vice which generates conspirators for impiety and anarchy.

Continuing, Barruel claims the Order's Chief to be:

...head of a conspiracy which, when compared with those of the clubs of Voltaire and D'Alambert, or with the secret committees of D'Orleans, make these latter appear like the faint imitations of puerility, and show the sophister and the Brigand as mere novices in the arts of revolution.




Borrowing from the masonic model, Weishaupt structured the Order in pyramid-like fashion, with novices starting at the bottom degree of 'minerval', and receiving training in a network of minerval academies. These circles met each month to discuss recruitment and the various tasks of the Order; there was also a thorough schooling in those "impious" works of the day, such as the writings of the Enlightenment philosophers. Minervals were often selected and enticed into the society by 'insinuators'; each candidate was required to complete an exhaustive autobiography of himself, his strengths, weaknesses and interests, as well as a statement of why he sought admission into the Illuminati.

The minerval academies also had the task of obtaining books and other literary materials useful to the Order, with the distant goal of establishing an institute for Enlightenment scholars, a library which would be an intellectual armory for use in the battle with, particularly, the witty Jesuits.

Those candidates who displayed an appreciation and interest in progressive Enlightenment ideals, as well as opposition and distaste for civil and ecclesiastical authority, would gradually be admitted to the higher grades of the Order. It was here that the true objectives of Illuminism were revealed. Far from being a mere study group or reading society that had no social or political goals, the Order was, in truth, to be a mechanism for the promulgation of the very "Impiety and Anarchy" denounced by Barruel. The Order was to work incessantly for the day, in Weishaupt's words, when

Princes and Nations shall disappear from off the face of the earth! Yes, a time shall come when man shall acknowledge no other law but the great book of nature; this revelation shall be the work of Secret Societies and that is one of our grand mysteries. ...25

Weishaupt eschewed the notion of seizing existing political structures, something truly exceptional for most revolutionists; men had to be re-made, as the stonemason shaped rock into a thing of harmony, beauty and perfection. "The grand art of rendering any revolution," he wrote, "whatsoever certain is to enlighten the people — and to enlighten them is, insensibly to turn the public opinion to the adoption of those changes which are the given objects of the intended revolution. ..." Illuminists at all grades were to apply themselves "to acquiring of interior and exterior perfection", a perfection which would, through the works of the Order, illuminate the entire world with reason and good deeds.

Such ideas and activities were prohibited not only in Bavaria but throughout most of Europe. The circulation of books and tracts was still regulated in a number of countries, 26 and the heavy hand of Jesuit intrigue remained, despite official disbandings of the Society in 1773. The Order did its work in secret, constantly fearing exposure to civil authority and the clergy. Indeed, at the lower level of the minerval academies, the order postured itself as having no interest in politics or religion per se, and concerned only with altruistic deeds based on the life of Jesus Christ!

Weishaupt's Order grew slowly, reaching a membership of 200-300, when the Marquis d'Costanza, acting as an insinuator, recruited Baron Adolph von Knigge in 1778. Knigge (1752-1796) was a noted German playwrite and novelist, who had translated Mozart's Magic Flute, an opera abundant with masonic allegory and symbolism. 27

Knigge was already a member of the masonic sect known as the Rite of Strict Observance, formed originally to combat the mystical and occult tendencies within Freemasonry. Despite his interest in occultism as a hobby, however, Knigge was an Atheist. 28

Following the Illuminist practice of adopting classical pseudonyms, Knigge was known henceforth as 'Philo'. Weishaupt had chosen the name of 'Spartacus', after the Thracian-Roman slave who lead a series of slave rebellions in 73-71 b.c., before falling to the imperial armies of Crassus. It was Baron Knigge who helped graft on to the Illuminati much of the ritual of Freemasonry but Weishaupt had dabbled in masonry several years before forming his Order, and considered it of little use in furthering his own purposes. It was Baron Xaverius von Zwack ('Cato'), a member of the Areopagites, or ruling council of Illuminism, who had begun the process of recruiting minervals from within masonic lodges. As a result of this, along with the tireless efforts of Knigge, the Order swelled in size to over 2,000 and extended throughout much of Europe. Each country had a national director who presided over a network of inspectors; they in turn carried on the business of the Order with the help of provincial aides, working down to the city level and minerval academy level.

Membership in the Order included some of the major figures of the German Enlightenment. Christopher Nicolai, a German Atheist, writer, critic and bookseller (1733-1811) was Master of the Berlin lodge. He co-founded the critical journal Bibliothek der Shonen Wissenschaffen und Freien Kunste, and collaborated in numerous literary reviews. Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744-1803), German philosopher, Atheist and composer was an Illuminist, as was Johann Wolfgang Goethe (1749-1823), German philosopher, writer and privy councilor. Goethe is best known, perhaps, as the creator of Faust, which some have speculated to be an Illuminist allegory.

At the zenith of its power and influence, the Order had perhaps as many as 3,000 members. The lodge at Munich, along with six other circles throughout Bavaria, boasted some 600 members in minerval and advanced degrees.

Illuminist organizations existed in Poland, Holland, England and France, often working within the masonic lodges which had become "illuminized" during the Congress of Wilhelmsbad in 1782. 29

The inevitable stresses of operating such a society, with the constant threat of banishment and public exposure, along with Weishaupt's own predeliction for secrecy and organizational detail, all took their devastating toil. As the order grew in numbers, so did the possibility of factionalism, inter-organizational strife and betrayal. The Order, so dedicated to the perfection of mankind, soon found itself immersed in the travails of bureaucracy and the imperfections of present-day human nature. Spartacus-Weishaupt wrote to Cato in August, 1783:

I am deprived of help. Socrates, who would insist on having a position of trust amongst us, and is really a man of talent, of the right way of thinking, is certainly drunk. Augustus' reputation could not be worse. Alcibiades does nothing but sit all day long with the vinter's pretty wife and spends his whole time in sighing and pinning with love. ... Tiberius attempted to ravish the wife of Democides, and her husband took them in the act. ...

So disillusioned with his undertaking at times was Weishaupt that he wrote, in anticipation of the arrival of a prominant candidate for membership in the Order, that the minerval would balk at joining a society of "dissolute, immoral wretches, whoremasters, liars, bankrupts, braggarts and vain fools.... " 30

Seized correspondence of the Illuminati, exhibited by Barruel, indicates that a growing portion of Weishaupt's activity was expended in maintaining a semblance of control of some of the freewheeling Illuminists. In one letter, Spartacus told a provincial lodge director that a "worthy Brother of the highest rank in the Order" has stolen jewelry from another member. Would the director implore the Brother to return his loot to its rightful owner? Despite his goal to "fit man by illumination for active virtue", even Weishaupt was caught up in the tragi-comedy; "I am in danger of losing at once my honour and reputation", he wrote, "by which I have had long such influence", and revealed that he had gotten his sister-in-law pregnant. Attempts to secure abortion failed, and Weishaupt was forced to consumate the cuckholding-marriage following the birth of a son.

Added to this were the problems inherent from the Congress of Wilhelmbad; despite gains made there in recruiting new members (such as Knigge), the victory in Illuminizing so much of Preemasonry was by no means total. Illuminist propaganda against the church had been traced to Lodge Theodore, which was dominated by the Order. The Bavarian elector directed that inquiries be made and the lodge was ordered dissolved. The closing of other lodges was soon ordered, as it became obvious to investigators that there was a conspiracy afoot against state and church; the inevitable quislings within the Illuminati soon appeared. Other factions of Masonry such as the Rosicrucians used this opportunity as well, and some Illuminists countered by theorizing that Jesuits were behind the plot to disband the Order. 31 Worse yet was the growing animosity between Weishaupt and Knigge; Philo labeled Spartacus a tyrant, while the embattled Weishaupt condemned his former associate for his growing obsession with occultism and ritual. The ultimate defection of Knigge helped seal the fate of the Order of the Illuminati. Disillusioned by the course of events, four university professors in the lower degrees of the Order disclosed their secret knowledge to the elector, charging that the sect posed a threat to Christianity, condoned epicurean pleasure, justified suicide, 32 and taught that "the end justified the means" if it served a noble cause. In 1785, with police raids, public trials and banishments, the Order was abolished.

Weishaupt was dismissed from his post at the University of Ingolstadt and was given a pension of some 40 pounds, which he refused. He then journeyed to Regenburg, where he began a pamphlet war with his Apologie der Illuminaten as a defense of the Order. He subsequently found refuge in the estate of the Count of Saxe-Gotha, Ernest, a member of the Illuminati. Weishaupt later became a professor at the University of Gottingen, where he published critical works on Kantian philosophy. He died there in 1830, his marvelous Order disbanded, and the world little closer to the illuminated heights which he had sought for it. In his defense, Weishaupt wrote:

I have contrived an explanation which has every advantage, is inviting to Christians of every communion, gradually frees them from all religious prejudices, cultivates the social virtues, and animates them by a great, a feasible, and a speedy prospect of universal happiness, in a state of liberty and moral equality, freed from the obstacles which subordination, rank and riches continually throw in our way. My explanation is accurate and complete; my means are effectual and irresistible. Our secret association works in a way that nothing can withstand, and man shall soon be free and happy....

To fit man by Illumination for active virtue, to engage him to it by the strongest motives, to render the attainment of it easy and certain ... this indeed will be employment suited to noble natures, grand in its views, and delightful in its exercise....

And what is the general object? THE HAPPINESS OF THE HUMAN RACE.... When we see the wicked so powerful and the good so weak, and that it is in vain to strive singly and alone against the general current of vice and oppression, the wish naturally arises in the mind that if it were possible to form a durable combination of the most worthy persons, who should work together in removing the obstacles to human happiness... and by fettering lessen vice; means which at the same time should promote virtue, by rendering the inclination to rectitude, hitherto so feeble, more powerful and engaging. Would not such an association be a blessing to the world?

One writer has posed the question of whether the Order of the Illuminati was any better than the world it sought to reform? Would the order, had it succeeded, been a blessing or a curse? And we are still today left with the question of why Illuminism failed in its enterprise.

Government and clerical harassment, the denial of fundamental rights of freedom of speech and press — these obviously were responsible, in large part, for the death of the sublime Order, Repression and intolerance necessitate an infectious secrecy which cannot help but contaminate those whom it touches. The task of promoting ideas soon became bogged down in the mire of conspiracy, degrees of revelation, secrets and mysteries, despite the lofty goals and vision. The genius of Adam Weishaupt was no exception in this case.

Most who have written of the Illuminati have had little, if any, good sentiments regarding the Order. They have called Weishaupt a knave, a despot, abortionist, heretic, demagogue, and traitor to his friends. We know from his correspondence, however, that he was a man vitally concerned with social justice, the struggle against political tyranny, and the Atheist ideal. We know also that despite his personal shortcomings, he sought fervently "the happiness of the human race." Indeed, perhaps some day the Order of the Illuminati will be seen as a "blessing to the world."

Part III - Aftermath

The disbanding of the Order of the Illuminati by the Bavarian Elector failed to dissipate the festering rumors of the sect's influence and size. Within certain segments of the state and church, it was thought that the Order had burrowed still further underground, and was at work throughout the continent under many different guises. Barruel's lengthy polemic against Jacobinism and Illuminism went into print in England a full thirteen years later, in 1798. A similar work by the English royalist John Robison, titled Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All Religions and Governments of Europe, was published in Britain and New York that same year. Both authors claimed that Illuminism had survived the persecution in Bavaria, although the Abbe Barruel considered Illuminism to be a manifestation of a far greater Atheistic evil, namely Jacobinism. The Jacobins were one of the most radical, anti-clerical and at times despotic factions during the French Revolution of 1789; ironically, they adopted their name from a dominican order of priests, whose seized monestary served as the jacobin meeting place.

Other elements within Freemasonry also capitalized on the exposure of the Illuminists. The Rosicrucians, active within the masonic lodges of Prussia, warned their fellow Masons of the Atheistic and revolutionary doctrines of the Illuminati. Robison himself was a Freemason who considered Illuminism to be a perversion of the craft; history does not record whether or not he was a Rosicrucian, although Robison does not explain the widespread popularity of Illuminist ideas within so much of continental masonry.

Nevertheless, the exposure of the Illuminati created "enormous confusion...about the whole world of Masonry, secret societies and sects." 33 The myth of Illuminist invincibility (something which the crafty Weishaupt had worked hard to create!) was nurtured by rumors that the Order survived in the German Union, created by Carl Frederick Bahrdt (1741-1792). Bahrdt was a militant Atheist who had suffered on account of his anti-clerical satires; he founded the Union with other Atheists as a reading society dedicated to the circulation of Enlightenment works. Ironically, it was the Illuminist Areopagite, Bode, who thought the idea of such a group to be foolhardy. No firm historical evidence links the Order of the Illuminati to the German Union; if anything, the Order survived only as ideas, rather than a working organization.

Such ruminations, however, ignited panic in the New World following the French Revolution, as official religion and puritan institutions in America were in decline. The early American colonies had all of the trappings of feudal theocracies; each colony had, in effect, an established and tax-funded church of the Christian religion. 34 In Virginia, there were laws which provided the death penalty for speaking against the divinity or tenents of the Christian faith. Delaware prohibited anyone who was not a believer in "Trinitarian Christianity" from holding a public office. South Carolina officially declared "the Christian protestant" form of superstition to be "the established religion of the State", adding: "That God is pubicly to be worshipped" and "That the Christian Religion is the true religion." 35

The founding fathers with their deistic persuasions no doubt looked with disfavor on the constant feuding within assorted Christian sects, each of which sought hegemony over the others. One can also find that these prominent deists and skeptics were often Freemasons, among them Franklin, Washington and Jefferson.

Revolutionary America was a period of official disestablishment of the assorted state religions. 36 Virginia enacted a Declaration of Rights on June 12, 1776, which provided for "free exercise of religion", and not favoring any one religious sect. That same year, religions were disestablished in Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania; in 1777, New York, Georgia and North Carolina followed suit. Local and state laws against theatre were repealed, along with censorship laws as well — all to the consternation of ministers throughout the country. 37

All of this—the collapse of traditional puritan institutions, and the dis-establishment of religious bodies — created a wide-spread neurosis and anxiety throughout religious groups. Worse still for the churches, out of some 4 million persons living in America in 1790, religious groups could claim only about 5% on their scanty membership rolls. Staunch clergymen chose every conceivable theme and incident to exploit in the quest for new followers; the discord of the times, along with the deteriorating condition of America's relations with France, were no exception. John Adams had declared May 9, 1798 to be a day of fasting and prayer, "to implore Heaven's mercy and benediction on the imperiled nation...." 38 It was on this day that the Illuminati hysteria in the New World began.

One of the many ministers who preached to their congregations that day was Rev. Jedediah Morse of Boston. He was known as a fiery orator, geographer and even an early supporter of the revolution in France. His enthusiasm for the revolution waned, however, with the "astonishing increase in irreligion" precipitated by The Terror, and the subsequent rise of brazen Atheism. Morse warned his North Church Street audience that similar forces were at work in America. Historian Vernon Stauffer observed:

If, said Morse, a contributory cause for the present "hazardous and afflictive position" of the country is sought, it will readily be found in "the astonishing increase of irreligion". The evidence of this, in turn, is to be found, not only in the prevailing atheism and materialism of the day, and all the vicious fruits which such impious sentiments have borne, but as well as the slanders with which newspapers are filled and the personal invective and abuse with which private discussion is laden, all directed against the representatives of government, against man, many of whom have grown gray in their country's service and whose integrity has been proved incorruptible. It is likewise to be discovered in the reviling and abuse which, coming from the same quarter, has been directed against the clergy, who, according to their influence and ability, have done what they could to support and vindicate the government....

When the question is raised respecting the design and tendency of these things, their inherent and appalling impiety is immediately disclosed. They "give reason to suspect that there is some secret plan in operation, hostile to true liberty and religion, which requires to be aided by these vile slanders".... 39

Morse maintained that such a master plan did exist, the fruition of which had already been achieved in France, and was being put into action throughout the rest of Europe and America as well. Conjuring John Robison, Morse went on to warn that during the past two decades, a sect calling themselves "The Illuminated" had plotted against thrones and altars everywhere, and had established itself in the United States. Jacobinism, the hidden "manifestation of the Illuminati" was at work" 40, and Thomas Paine's Age of Reason was regarded as part of a general plan to accomplish "demoralization of the people".

Morse was careful not to mention Freemasonry as part of his plot; in this respect, he had followed Robison's lead, maintaining that Illuminism had been grafted onto the craft, and represented a corruption of masonic doctrine. Morse's sermon, along with the circulation of Barruel's Memoirs and Robison's Proofs of a Conspiracy soon created widespread alarm throughout New England. Such conspiracy theories were sufficiently vague yet tantalizing to explain, to the superficial and the uninformed, many of the events taking place in the land. There indeed was a spirit of irreligion loose in the country, and the old puritan institutions were crumbling. The ideas of the Enlightenment were being realized here on a number of levels, including political rights as well as the dedication to material progress; but all of this was due to a number of complex historical and economic forces, not the midnight plots of small bands of intriguers. 41

The public debate which followed Morse's revelations in countless New England journals such as the Independent Chronical and the Massachusetts Mercury, failed to produce any evidence that Illuminism had survived the persecution of the Bavarian authorities and lived to organize lodges in the New World. The letters and exchanges debated Robison's book in particular with razor-tongued ferocity; and as a consequence, more heat than light was cast on the entire question. No lodges were uncovered, no names revealed.

Thomas Jefferson, who would later stand accused of being part of a non-existent Illuminist conspiracy in the New World, had read Barruel's scurrilous work about the order. Like many, even he accepted part of Weishaupt's rationale in defense of Illuminism found in the chief's Aopologie der Illuminaten. In a letter to Bishop Madison in January, 1800, Jefferson wrote:

I have lately by accident got a sight of a single volume (the 3d) of the Abbe Barruel's Antisocial Conspiracy, which gives me the first idea I have ever had of what is meant by the Illuminatism against which Illuminate Morse, as he is now called, and his ecclesiastical associates have been making such a hue and cry. Barruel's own parts of the book are perfectly the ravings of a Bedlamite. But he quotes largely from Wishaupt whom he considers as the founder of what he calls the order. As you may not have had an opportunity as forming a judgment of this cry of 'mad dogs' which has been raised against his doctrines, I will give you the idea I have formed from only an hour's reading of Barruel's quotations from him, which, you may be sure, are not the most favorable. Wishaupt seems to be an enthusiastic philanthropist. He is among those (as you know the excellent Price and Priestley also are) who believes in the infinite perfectability of man. He thinks he may in time be rendered so perfect that he will be able to govern himself in every circumstance, so as to injure none, to do all the good he can, to leave government no occasion to exercise their powers over him, and, of course, to render political government useless. This, you know, is Godwin's doctrine, and that is what Robinson , Barruel, and Morse had called a conspiracy against all government...." 42

Not surprisingly, certain Catholic writers blamed the "virus" of Preemasonry for nearly every political assassination, revolution and war of the nineteenth century. 43 Their "evidence" for such a claim is a potpourri of facts and myths; particularly in the eyes of the Vatican, the agents of Masonry were to be found everywhere doing their diabolical dirty work.

No sooner had the Illuminati hysteria died down than a new wave of paranoia over Masonry swept the country. An anti-masonic movement emerged during the early to mid-1800s on several occasions, one of which even ran candidates for public office.

Illuminism's spectre rose again in the early 1900s with the writings of Nesta Webster, a writer who enjoyed considerable popularity in Tory circles in Britain. Her voluminous outpourings warned of plots, secret societies, Illuminists and Masons, all of whom were determined to bring down the edifices of state and church. By now, the legend of the Illuminati was more powerful than truth; Webster, writing in The Nineteenth Century, quoted Vernon Stauffer's work claiming that "As early as 1786, a Lodge of the Order had been started in Virginia, and this was followed by fourteen others in different cities ... no, Illuminism is not dead. 44 ln fact, Stauffer had debunked such rumors and mythologies; Webster had quoted as established fact something which Stauffer reported as unsubstantiated rumor. Stauffer analyzed the Illuminist hysteria in terms not only of the decay of puritan institutions, but in the intrigues of Federalist vs. anti-Federalist politics. For Webster, however, Jews, Cabalists, Freemasons, Anarchists, Illuminists, occultists and heretics of all varieties were linked in a grand conspiracy running back through history to establish what some imaginatively termed an "Occult Theocracy".


The ubiquitous paranoia about Freemasonry, along with the voracious gullability of Catholics, proved fertile ground for one of the greatest literary hoaxes of all time, designed by an Atheist-satirist known as Leo Taxil. Born Gabriel Antoine Jogand-Pages (1854-1907), he was educated by the Jesuits, but soon became a militant Atheist and anti-clerical propagandist. He authored a variety of anti-religious skits and satires beginning when he was 25 including A Humorous Bible, The Skullcap and its Wearers, and A Humorous Gospel, or the Life of Jesus. He was particularly adept at ridiculing the sleezy lifestyles of the decadent popes, along with sacred doctrine and religious taboo. He served as secretary of the Anti-Clerical League in France, which boasted some 15,000 members, and edited the society's newspaper, Anti-Clericale. Earlier, he had published La Marotte (Fool's Bauble), an Atheist journal of humor and insult, and in 1880 founded a Society of Freethinkers. (Accounts vary, but his society may have either merged with or been renamed the Anti-Clerical League.)

One of Taxil's collaborators was another Atheist, a Dr. Karl Hacks, who wrote under the pseudonym Bataille. In 1892, the two began issuing a serial publication known for its infamous title, The Devil in the Nineteenth Century, a satirical expose of Freemasonry and Satanism. The work began by referring to Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Humanum Genus, wherein the holy father divided all of humanity into two warring camps — those who worship the one, true Christian god, and those who serve Lucifer. (After the hoax had been exposed, Hacks remarked that no sooner had he and Taxil read Leo's encyclical than he perceived "a rare opportunity to coin money out of the mass credulity and boundless stupidity of the Catholics ...") From this inspiration was born The Devil, Taxil and Hacks set to work; "sometimes I fabricated the most incredible stories", wrote Taxil, "as, for example, that of a serpent inditing prophecies with its tail..."

The Devil in the Nineteenth Century is truly a collection of outrageous, unsupported and amusing tales; the gist of the story involves progressive revelations about Freemasons and other secret societies and their drive to establish some kind of Luciferian theocracy on earth (one strangely resembling the City of God, but with a different twist!)

All of this was set against the background of "the most comical episode of his (Taxil's) strange career", a supposed return to the fold of the church. While writing a book on the life of Joan of Arc, designed to incite animosity amongst the clergy, Taxil was (so the story goes) overwhelmed by returned sentiments of religiosity. "I burst into sobs", revealed Taxil in his comical Confession. "Pardon me, oh God!, I cried out in a voice choked with tears. Pardon my many blasphemies! Pardon all the evil I have wrought! I passed the night in prayer, and resolved on the next day to seek absolution for my sins.... " 45 Taxil immediately withdrew from public Atheistic activities, resigning at a meeting of the Anti-Clerical League. Accounts suggest that few of his Atheist cohorts believed in Taxil's born-again religiosity, "yet every one was puzzled to understand the strategic purpose of this retrograde movement...." Some cried "Ha! You can't fool us! You've been paid by the Vatican! How much, eh?"

Taxil immediately set to work in writing the first segment of his sham-expose, his Complete Revelations, overflowing with imaginary and gruesome tales of devil worship, debauchery and sacrilegious rites. The Catholic press, taken in, greeted the smirking Taxil and his revelations with exultations, boasting that the works "combined positive and irrefutable proofs of the diabolical character of the Masonic mysteries". By 1887, Taxil had conned his way into a private audience with Leo XIII, who informed Jorgand that he was an avid reader of the Revelations.. ..and Taxil left the Vatican with a papal benediction as well as "the conclusion that he could imagine nothing so absurd that it would not be received in Catholic circles as authentic and indorsed by infallible authority...." 46

Catholic presses continued to grind out Taxil's fantastic literature for the church-going gullible when he and Bataille-Hacks began publication of The Devil in the Nineteenth Century. This literary fantasy told the story of Albert Pike, a Grand Master of Freemasonry residing in Charleston, South Carolina, whom the book called "the satanic pope". The real Pike was a colorful and controversial figure in the history of the craft. Pike served as a general in the Confederate Army during the Civil War; after mustering out, he developed an interest in Masonry and ancient languages (it was reported he was fluent in some two dozen tongues, many of them considered "dead languages"). He rose within Freemasonry to become grand commander of the Scottish Rite, and head of the Southern Jurisdiction in the United States.

Taxil and Bataille named Albert Pike as head of a mysterious Luciferian conspiracy known as the New Paladian Rite, headquartered in Charleston, S.C. with affiliated temples in Washington, Rome, Montevideo, Naples and Calcutta. Taxil also fantasized a device (years before the invention of radio) where Pike could communicate with his masonic stooges throughout the world at the touch of a button; the satanic pope even had a bracelet to summon Lucifer for consultation at any time. 47 "One day Satan took Pike gently in his arms and made a trip with him to Sirius", wrote Taxil, "traversing the whole distance in a few minutes. After exploring the fixed star, he was brought back safe and sound to his room in Washington...."

The Devil also told of a labyrinth of underground laboratories beneath the cliffs of Gibralter, staffed by mischievous demons under the leadership of one Tubal-Cain. Here, Satan's chemists worked around the clock concocting flus and epidemics to be spread amongst Christians everywhere. (Tubal-Cain, by the way, reportedly spoke fluent French.) And more fantasy: in the town of Freiburg, Switzerland was to be found a Masonic temple hewn out of rock for use during the satanic mass. Naked men and women engaged in irreligious and erotic outrages, including stabbing holy wafers which had been stolen by Jews from Catholic churches.

The spicy comedy was not complete, however, without one Miss Diana Vaughn, whom Taxil presented to society as a descendant of the Rosicrucian alchemist Thomas Vaughn. 48 The lady claimed to possess a signed contract between her famous ancestor and Satan himself, dated March 25, 1625. Miss Vaughn was supposedly born in Paris on February 29, 1874 — a most ingenious feat, considering that in that particular year there was no February 29. Having been raised on strictly Luciferian principles, she purportedly one day expressed doubt to her satanic mentors as to the worthiness of Cain and Abel as paragons of diabolical virtue. It was quickly ascertained that the youngster was possessed by the Christian angel Raphael, and in need of immediate exorcism, lest she fall prey to the one, true god. Exorcism was performed, "the whole process of which, as described by Taxil ... a clever travesty of the ceremonial prescribed by the Romish church for the expulsion of evil spirits...." In any case, the ritual was a success and "Raphael" was driven out.

Few, if any within official Catholicism, grasped the humor in Taxil's devastating parody on Leo's "Exorcisimus in Satanam et Angelos Spostatas", issued by the pope in 1890.

Her body restored to health, Miss Vaughn was placed in the care of Asmodeus, one of the major satanic functionaries. The demon sometimes approached her in the form of a handsome suitor emitting the strong aroma of balsam. He escorted her on pleasure trips and short jaunts to purgatory, even wisking her to the planet Mars where the two visited Schiaparelli's canals and strolled amongst the pygmie inhabitants of the Red Planet.

Throughout this entire episode, Catholics everywhere gorged themselves with such incredulous fabrications, all spun by the poker-faced Taxil and his collaborator, Dr. Bataille. The Catholic journal The Month 49 wrote glowingly of Taxil's conversion to the church and his subsequent revelations about Masonry, noting that "an instance of conversion as that of Leo Taxil ought to at least encourage us to hope that there may be many such."

In fact, Taxil had fooled all Christiandom: "My colleagues were aghast and exclaimed 'You'll spoil the whole joke with your nonsense!' 'Bah', I replied, let me be and you will see!'"

Taxil promoted his Complete Revelations and The Devil until 1897, when public pressure demanded the persona of Miss Diana Vaughn, the reformed Luciferian. Taxil called a press conference on April 19; mounting the platform before the assembled reporters and observers, he confessed his ruse to a bewildered public — "After thanking the clergy for their aid in carrying out his scheme and attributing their cooperation chiefly to ignorance and imbecility, he escaped amidst much confusion." 50

Yet this revelation — that Taxil the Convert was, in reality, the same old Taxil, who had hoaxed and satired religion before — did not serve to convince all true believers. One Catholic writer maintained that the man who called the press conference was really an impostor, and that Masons had kidnapped the real Taxil. Still another insisted that Diana Vaughn failed to appear because Freemasons had bribed Taxil into placing her in a lunatic asylum. The Pelican, another Catholic magazine, still supported Taxil's revelations about devil-worship and Masonry, insisting that Freemasons, Jews, Luciferians and their comrades carried out many of the attrocities described by Taxil and Bataille. It was further asserted that in July 1897, Jews absconded with consecrated wafers from a church in Silesia, whereupon the plot was uncovered by a Polish nobleman.

Thus ended one of the great literary hoaxes in history, a battle of pen and wits which the church clearly lost. Taxil returned to the anti-clerical movement, being recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia as "one of the most notorious religious hoaxers of the nineteenth century."


The linkage of Freemasonry with the most bizarre rituals and practices, at least in the Christian imagination, was cemented still further by yet another spurious collection of writings known as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The Protocols are taunted as a masterplan hatched at a secret meeting of zionists in 1897, held in Berne, Switzerland. Depending on whose account one reads, the meeting was run by Jews, Masons, Luciferians, the Illuminati, international bankers, or other un-touchable types. With the intent of bringing about the decay of Christian civilization, the Protocols pledge:

...to corrupt the young generation by subversive education, dominate people through their vices, destroy family life, undermine respect for religion, encourage luxury, amuse people to prevent them from thinking, poison the spirit by destructive theories, weaken human bodies by inoculation with microbes, foment international hatred and prepare for universal bankruptcy and concentration of gold in the hands of the Jews." 51

Since their inception, the Protocols have been incendiary fuel for everyone from Nazis to fundamentalist Christians. Hitler mentions the Protocols in Mein Kampf, maintaining the existence of a jewish plot against Christianity, in league with Freemasonry.

The Protocols are actually a plagarism of an early tract called Dialogues in the Underworld Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, penned in 1865 by Maurice Jouly as a satire on Napoleon III. The evolution of these Dialogues into the Protocols, with appropriate additions and rewritings is less important here than is the fact that they are, like Taxil's creations, historical forgeries.

Given human credulity, it is not surprising that the mythology of the Protocols, the revelations of Taxil-Bataille, the fantasies of Barruel and Robison, and other assorted tales about Masonry and Illuminism persist to this very day. Little objective, scholarly work has been done, in this century, on the Illuminists, although there are over 10,000 pieces on Freemasonry. Taxil's satire is still taken seriously by segments of the Christian community such as the Cinema Educational Guild and the Christian Defense League; several popular books in right-wing circles still repeat the more bizarre tales of The Devil in the Nineteenth Century, and claim to link the defunct Order of the Illuminati to events today. More than two centuries after the founding of the Order, there is more fiction than fact to represent its philosophy, its accomplishments, its aspirations and its demise.

  

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RemyMartin
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Fri Aug-10-07 06:46 AM

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369. "You reposted the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 368


  

          

...I read it all the first time. Did you read what I pointed out? Go back to my first reply. Again, pay attention. I pulled snippets from different parts of what you posted.

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Yank
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Fri Aug-10-07 05:52 PM

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375. "You're dodging the obvious"
In response to Reply # 369
Fri Aug-10-07 05:53 PM by Yank

  

          

1 paragraph in a unbiased article compared to a MOUNTAIN of circumstantial evidence within the same article....

You and Kosher asked for evidence so I'm bringing it..
You watch those links yet?

  

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RemyMartin
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379. "RE: You're dodging the obvious"
In response to Reply # 375


  

          

>1 paragraph in a unbiased article compared to a MOUNTAIN of
>circumstantial evidence within the same article....

How am I dodging? I pulled pieces out of several paragraphs...not one. And, I have no intimate knowledge about the illuminati or anything else besides masonry so that's what I choose to speak with my informed opinion on.

I'm not disagreeing with what's in what you posted, but I pulled the "conclusions" out and while you're saying I'm ignoring MOUNTAINS of evidence, you're ignoring specific hills.

I can't speak on everything that's there because I don't know anything about it. See...it's easy to accept ignorance.

>You and Kosher asked for evidence so I'm bringing it..
>You watch those links yet?

Nah, haven't had time. But, I'll get to it.

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Yank
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Sat Aug-11-07 08:57 AM

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380. "Ignorance is bliss"
In response to Reply # 379
Sat Aug-11-07 08:59 AM by Yank

  

          

>
>I can't speak on everything that's there because I don't know
>anything about it. See...it's easy to accept ignorance.
>



RE: Willful ignorance (or vincible ignorance) is a bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions that such information might prompt.


Yet, ah! why should they know their fate,
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies?
Thought would destroy their Paradise.
No more;—where ignorance is bliss,

'Tis folly to be wise.

-Thomas Gray 1742

  

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RemyMartin
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386. "You still didn't address it."
In response to Reply # 380
Sat Aug-11-07 03:50 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

And, since you don't seem to have the information to address those questions in the original reply, I'll pose another: How is what I do as an "uniformed" blue house Mason assisting this grand world control scheme that has been put into action by the "higher ups?"

What was in that article that supports what you were saying? I see where it talks about how they tried to do what you're saying...and failed. But, where does it support what you were saying?

I'm not asking you to address my ignorance, you've done that plenty fine. I think you're attempting to address my ignorance in an attempt to cover your own.

I assume you'll skip to that last sentence, like you've done in the last few responses to this thread, and not address what came before it though. If that's the case, I say we just leave it at that. I'll take my willful ignorance label. And I'll stick you with one of practical ignorance.

Easy.

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Yank
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Tue Aug-14-07 08:23 PM

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406. "RE: You still didn't address it."
In response to Reply # 386


  

          

>And, since you don't seem to have the information to address
>those questions in the original reply, I'll pose another: How
>is what I do as an "uniformed" blue house Mason assisting this
>grand world control scheme that has been put into action by
>the "higher ups?"


You really need to soak all the of the information that you originally requested a few days ago. How are "you" assisting? You're not, there is a secret society within your secret society, You're just on the outer circle of the "grand scheme"

Soak it all in first....


>
>What was in that article that supports what you were saying? I
>see where it talks about how they tried to do what you're
>saying...and failed. But, where does it support what you were
>saying?
>

You are already aware of Bilderberg Group, there is no failure here..

Are you also aware of the Council on Foreign Relations?


>I'm not asking you to address my ignorance, you've done that
>plenty fine. I think you're attempting to address my ignorance
>in an attempt to cover your own.

Not at all, ask twice and you shall receive, you requested materials, now I am here to present and discuss.

>
>I assume you'll skip to that last sentence, like you've done
>in the last few responses to this thread,

(Oh and Victor Vague one liners are crystal clear also)






> practical ignorance.
HA!


Au contraire, mon frere!

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-15-07 09:55 AM

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413. "Ok,i got you now."
In response to Reply # 406
Wed Aug-15-07 09:56 AM by RemyMartin

  

          

>You really need to soak all the of the information that you
>originally requested a few days ago. How are "you" assisting?
>You're not, there is a secret society within your secret
>society, You're just on the outer circle of the "grand
>scheme"
>

Ok, I got you now. And, I can agree w/ that. But, this is about Masonry, and what you're talking about is bigger than Masonry. It might be a "training" ground for some such thing, or even a subsidiary of it. I don't know. I can say that comfortably. I can only know and speak on what me and the cats I work with do. This grand scheme thing is the truth, no doubt, but I don't see how it puts shade on the craft I'm a part of.

>You are already aware of Bilderberg Group, there is no failure
>here..
>
>Are you also aware of the Council on Foreign Relations?

Yep. That, again, I'll agree with.

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:37 AM

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326. "RE: Ask me about Freemasonry."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3923632392892449905

  

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Yank
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Tue Aug-14-07 09:07 PM

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410. "AVDI VIDE TACE"
In response to Reply # 326


  

          

-

  

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RemyMartin
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414. "Matthew 6:1"
In response to Reply # 410


  

          

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:40 AM

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327. "Now about the Federal Reserve Note"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Ever heard the term QUASI GOVERNMENTAL?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2974663123521791518

  

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:44 AM

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328. "I spoke on this earlier, and so did you...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3891535120990840079&total=39&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

  

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:46 AM

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331. "For "media" balance"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1270081493781521177

  

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RemyMartin
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Thu Aug-09-07 08:13 AM

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341. "Gonna take some time to watch all those videos..."
In response to Reply # 331


  

          

...I'll have to get back to you.

I think I've seen a couple of them and I have a book all about the design of the Dollar, and the layout of DC too, by David Ovason. Both are pretty good if you want to pick them up.

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Optometrist
Member since Oct 20th 2004
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Thu Aug-09-07 07:47 AM

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333. "*rides Clyde through this post*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

______________________________________

amazin they ungrateful after all The Game I gave away

http://i30.tinypic.com/e9x4xi.jpg

  

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RemyMartin
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344. "That's impossible."
In response to Reply # 333


  

          

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ado420
Member since Apr 17th 2006
2004 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 08:56 AM

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345. "What do you get out of it?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Seriously, I am curious, as no one has ever told me what's great about being a Mason.

I just don't get it

  

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ne_atl
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Thu Aug-09-07 10:01 AM

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346. "we get to look down at you folk"
In response to Reply # 345


  

          

we can kill the president and get away with it
Masons, not the american voters pick presidents. Didn't you know?
I got people in the White House on speed dail to waive my taxes for 07
printed money has a road map to millions in treasure. have you seen the Nick Cage movie?


___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Thu Aug-09-07 10:05 AM

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347. "you get out of it what you put into it"
In response to Reply # 345


  

          

if you join just to join, and are inactive, you're not goint to see any benefit from being a mason.

if you are active in lodge and in your district, and involve yourself in masonry, you gain friendships, make networking connections, and improve yourself and your community, while also learning life skills that can help you professionally.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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RemyMartin
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353. "I enjoy the fellowship, what I've been exposed to..."
In response to Reply # 345


  

          

...philosophically and morally. I always had an interest in philosophy, but this provide some sort of framework to build on.

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
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Thu Aug-09-07 04:34 PM

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355. "so how do most freemasons view"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Aug-09-07 05:05 PM by GriftyMcgrift

  

          

Alister Crowley, Albert Pike and Satanism? Some people believe that the people that are in the upper levels of this organization are "Luciferians". can you shed any light on that? (no pun intended)


i wanted to clarify. do freemasons discuss this stuff with other freemason

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-15-07 10:18 AM

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416. "RE: so how do most freemasons view"
In response to Reply # 355


  

          

>Alister Crowley, Albert Pike and Satanism? Some people
>believe that the people that are in the upper levels of this
>organization are "Luciferians". can you shed any light on
>that? (no pun intended)

They were historians who voiced their opinions within their writings on Masonry.

I don't know if their luciferians or not. There's on line in Pikes Morals and Dogma that speaks to Lucifer. The Light Bearer. The Morning Star. Some say it's a satanic reference, some say it's a reference to Venus, some say its to the sun. I haven't read Morals and Dogma in its entirety as it's a bit above my current rank and I like to things hidden until I am ready to move forward.

>i wanted to clarify. do freemasons discuss this stuff with
>other freemason

Yep.

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meccau
Member since Jul 16th 2006
296 posts
Mon Aug-20-07 01:08 AM

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424. "RE: so how do most freemasons view"
In response to Reply # 416


          

well think of the lucifer thoery as fire burning the wood creating smoke in a chimney....
and changes....transmutation you may say


we all have devilish ways that are sinful (all humans have this), but a mason or good human being can change that negativity to positivity.

simply making the BITTER to the SWEET.


go head masonry post. on okplayer!

  

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Yank
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356. "Jesse Jackson (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

***finger guns***

http://www.freemasonvideo.com/whatisfreemasonry.htm




What is Freemasonry
Article
Introduction

Freemasonry is an initiatic fraternal society whose members are joined together by shared moral ideals and a constitutional declaration of belief in a Supreme Being. The three tenets of Freemasonry are Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth. The Masonic initiatic path consists
of "degrees" which represent a beautiful system of morality veiled iallegory and illustrated by symbols.


For additional information, you may want to visit the following sites:
Grand Lodge of Washington, DC (http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/)
Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania (http://www.pagrandlodge.org/)
United Grand Lodge of England (http://www.ugle.org.uk/)
Masonic Service Association of North America (http://www.msana.com/)
Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite, S.J. (http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/index.htm)
Order of the Eastern Star (http://www.easternstar.org/)
Women's Freemasonry (http://www.womenfreemasonsusa.com/index.html)
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Principles_and_activities)

Famous Freemasons

Freemasons in Government
From the signing of the Declaration of Independence to service in the Senate, Freemasons have been incredibly active in U.S. government. Below is a list of some of the most influential figures.

James Buchanan – 15th President of the U.S. (1857-1861).

Gerald R. Ford – 25 year Congressman and Minority Leader of the U.S. House of Representatives, he was appointed Vice President of the U.S. When President Richard Nixon resigned, he became the 38th President.

Benjamin Franklin – American printer, author, diplomat, philosopher, and scientist, he held the Masonic title of Grand Master of Pennsylvania and was one of the 13 Masonic signers of the Constitution of the United States.

James A. Garfield – The 20th President of the United States, he was assassinated in 1881.

John Hancock – One of nine Masons – and the first signer of the Declaration of Independence, he was President of the Continental Congress and served nine terms as Governor of Massachusetts.

Warren G. Harding – The 29th President of the United States.

Jesse Helms – Well-known conservative U.S. Senator from North Carolina, he has been a leader in the field of U.S. foreign relations for decades.

Patrick Henry – American colonial patriot, member of the Continental Congress, he spurred the creation of the Virginia militia with the famous words, "Give me liberty, or give me death." He later served as the Governor of Virginia.

Andrew Jackson – 7th President of the United States (1829-1837) and first Westerner to be elected President. He was Grand Master of Masons in Tennessee two terms (1822-1824).

*******Reverend Jesse Jackson – Baptist Minister, American civil rights leader and politician, his concerns for the oppressed have attracted a large grassroots constituency called the Rainbow Coalition.**********

Andrew Johnson – The 17th President of the United States, he succeeded the assassinated Abraham Lincoln.

Trent Lott – U.S. Senator from Mississippi and Senator Majority Leader from 1996-2001.

General Douglas MacArthur – A former U.S. Chief of Staff, he commanded the Allied Forces in the South Pacific during World War II. He was ultimately removed from military leadership by another Mason, President Harry S Truman.

George C. Marshall – He served as Secretary of State from 1947-1949 and organized the European Recovery Plan most often referred to as the "Marshall Plan," for which he received the 1953 Nobel Peace Prize.

Thurgood Marshall – The first African-American to be appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States.

William McKinley – The 25th President of the United States (1897-1901). His presidency was marked by the Spanish-American War (1898), the annexation of Cuba and the Philippines, an open-door policy with China, and the passage of the Gold Standard Act (1900). He was assassinated by an anarchist in Buffalo, New York.

Franklin D. Roosevelt – Governor of New York and 32nd President of the United States, he was the only U.S. president to be reelected three times. He brought his country out of the Great Depression, guided them through World War II, and died in office. He was succeeded by another Mason, Harry S Truman.

Theodore Roosevelt – Hero of the Spanish-American War, Governor of New York, Vice President, and after President (and Mason) William McKinley was assassinated, the 26th President of the United States. Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

William Howard Taft – Civil governor of the Philippines, Secretary of War, Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and 27th President of the U.S.

Harry S. Truman – 33rd President of the United States, he previously served as Grand Master of Masons - the highest position in Freemasonry - in Missouri from 1940-1941.

Earl Warren – As Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court from 1953 to 1974, he led sweeping changes in civil rights and criminal law.

George Washington – As General of the Armies of the colonies, he led the revolution that brought about American independence. As the first President of the United States, his leadership was crucial to the formation of the United States. Following his death, his widow sent locks of his hair (a common practice of the time) to Masons throughout the country and such revered treasures were the object of great appreciation. To this day, a lock of his hair sent to the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts is carried in a golden urn preceding the entry of the Grand Master at the Annual Meeting of the Grand Lodge.

Freemasons in Arts & Entertainment
Many of the most famous writers, actors, musicians and artists were Freemasons. The following is a list of those who have made their mark across the globe.

Gene Autry – American actor who made some 90 movies from the 1930s through the 1950s, cowboy singer, and professional sports team owner.

Frederic A. Bartholdi – French sculptor best known for his figure of Liberty Enlightening the World, the Statue of Liberty, in New York Harbor.

William "Count" Basie – Orchestra leader/composer.
Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain) – Writer and humorist. His famous works include the characters of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn.

William "Buffalo Bill" Cody – American guide, scout and showman, he founded the "Wild West” show which toured Europe and America. Cody, Wyoming is named after him.

Nat 'King' Cole – Great pianist and ballad singer.

Duke Ellington – American jazz composer, arranger, bandleader, and pianist, considered the greatest composer in the history of jazz music and one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century.

Clark Gable – American actor who played opposite nearly every major female star during the 1930's. Perhaps best remembered for his role as Rhett Butler in 'Gone with the Wind,' he had received an Academy Award as Best Actor (in the Best Movie) of 1934 ('It Happened One Night').

Harry Houdini (Ehrich Weiss) – Premiere American magician known for his escapes from chains, handcuffs, straitjackets, and padlocked containers, he was immensely proud of his Masonic affiliations and became a Shriner just before his untimely death.

Rudyard Kipling – British writer who won the Nobel Prize for Literature. Many of his works have strong Masonic themes and some are specifically about Freemasonry, despite the fact that he was only active in his lodge for a brief period of time.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – (1756-1791) Austrian composer considered among the greatest and most prolific composers in history.



*****Michael Richards – The talented actor most popularly known as "Kramer" from the Seinfeld television series.*******





LMAO I guess you learn something every day..



Ringling Brothers - All 7 of these famous Circus brothers and their father were Masons.

"Sugar Ray" Robinson – American prizefighter and six time world champion (once as a welterweight and five times as a middleweight).

Johathan Swift – Clergyman and satirist, he wrote Gulliver's Travels.

Booker T. Washington – Educator and author and founder of Tuskegee Institute.

John Wayne – "The Duke" - One of the most popular actors of recent years. His 'manly' roles helped define a generation.

Grant Wood – American painter famous for his stylized realism and the painting "American Gothic."

Freemasons in American History
Freemasons have played significant roles in the shaping of American history. Below are some familiar names.

William Clark – American explorer and frontier politician who joined another Freemason, Meriwether Lewis on the Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-6), the first overland exploration of the American West and Pacific Northwest. Clark was responsible for the careful mapmaking. He later served as a Native American agent and governor of the Missouri Territory (1813-1821).

W.E.B. DuBois – Educator/Scholar and co-founder of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

John H. Glenn Jr. – U.S. astronaut and first American to orbit the earth in a space craft in 1962, he served as a U.S. Senator from Ohio from 1974 through 1998. In November 1998, he returned to space 36 years after his original journey as the oldest American astronaut.
Meriwether Lewis – American soldier and explorer who, with fellow

Mason William Clark, conducted the first overland exploration of the West and Pacific Northwest. He also served as Governor of the Louisiana Territory and was proclaimed a National Hero. He was the first Master of St. Louis Lodge #111.

Paul Revere – American silversmith, engraver, and Revolutionary hero who on April 18, 1775 made his famous ride to warn, "The British are coming!" as celebrated in a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Revere was a Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts.

Freemasons in Business
Some of the most influential inventors and businessmen were Freemasons. These men made great strides in technology and shaped the way our economy is run.

Samuel Colt – Firearms inventor and manufacturer. He invented the first revolver.

Henry Ford – Invented the first gasoline-powered automobile in 1893, founded Ford Motor Company in 1903, and mass-produced the first widely available and affordable car

Samuel Gompers – He led in the formation of the American Federation of Labor and (with the exception of one year) headed it from 1886 to 1924. He opposed socialism and communism and radicalism generally and kept the movement focused on economic goals and job security. He supported several reforms in child labor.
Andrew Mellon – Financier, public official, and philanthropist. He helped found the Union Trust Company of Pittsburgh (1898), the Gulf Oil Corporation (1895), the Pittsburgh Coal Company (1899), the Aluminum Company of America, and the company that built the Panama Canal locks. In 1913 he established the Mellon Institute for Industrial Research, and he endowed the National Gallery of Art (1937).

  

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Yank
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Thu Aug-09-07 04:47 PM

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357. "Bill Clinton (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

my apologies for Bill Clinton, sponsored by Freemasonry, but never initiated...

Jackson is still accurate though and there are others....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

Clinton was also a member of Youth Order of DeMolay, but he never actually became a Freemason. He is a member of Kappa Kappa Psi's National Honorary Band Fraternity, Inc. With the aid of scholarships, Clinton attended the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University in Washington D.C., receiving a Bachelor of Science in Foreign Service (B.S.F.S.) degree in 1968. It was at Georgetown that he interned for Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright. While in college he became a brother of Alpha Phi Omega and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa.


Former U. S. President Bill Clinton is not a Mason. He was a member of the Order of DeMolay, a youth group sponsored by Masons and during his membership was the presiding officer (Master Councilor) of his Chapter.

Famous Non-Masons. Retrieved on 2006-12-20.

  

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Frank Castle
Member since Dec 18th 2002
14088 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 04:54 PM

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358. "Do you have to have a relative as a mason to join"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and do you'll get alot of connections?

DAMN!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Thu Aug-09-07 04:56 PM

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359. "you do not have to be related to a Mason to join"
In response to Reply # 358


  

          

as far as the connections, it's like a college fraternity - if you are actively TRYING to make connections, it's easy to network and do so.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Frank Castle
Member since Dec 18th 2002
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Thu Aug-09-07 09:08 PM

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360. "so how do you qualify?"
In response to Reply # 359


  

          

DAMN!

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
70132 posts
Thu Aug-09-07 09:20 PM

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361. "as the saying goes: 2B1ASK1"
In response to Reply # 360


  

          

if you want to become a mason, seek out a mason and talk to him. if he thinks you are a good man, he will sponsor your petition for membership.

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Aeon
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43870 posts
Fri Aug-10-07 10:07 AM

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371. "there's nothing particularly enlightening about this post, sad to say."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

:/

it's reading alot like an MLM without the proselytism.

the ethereal allusions to...god knows what, and the proverbial secret handshakes and vague references to things the average reader has no concept of doesn't help t all.

if the fundamental things that can make Freemasonry actual to the layman are things you have to talk around, why even try?

i don't mean to sound upset, i'm not, but a lot of this post doesn't even hint at being explicit. while it never promises that it will- which is fair- the point of the post is specious, at best.

i mean, a guy like me might wanna be a part, but you know...

you guys look like you're having fun tho. lol

_

shakin your block with a 6 million dollar bop

_

www.davidevanmcdowell.com

  

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RemyMartin
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Fri Aug-10-07 12:18 PM

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372. "RE: there's nothing particularly enlightening about this post, sad to sa..."
In response to Reply # 371


  

          

>it's reading alot like an MLM without the proselytism.
>
>the ethereal allusions to...god knows what, and the proverbial
>secret handshakes and vague references to things the average
>reader has no concept of doesn't help t all.

See, the thing is the majority of those questions were posed, I believe, rhetorically. Cats put things up they know we can't share and say "SEE!! I TOLD YOU SO!!"

>if the fundamental things that can make Freemasonry actual to
>the layman are things you have to talk around, why even try?

The reason I do it is to remove some of the mystery. To try to make it accessible, and while we can't put everything out there if you go look at what are some earnest questions we answered them to the best of our ability. THe thing about Masonry is if you come to it, it's mostly out of curiosity. That's what it was for me. I read about it, heard about it, but to really understand you have to come in.

And, to be honest, a true understanding of Masonry isn't for the layman. I try to confront the misinformation and answer what I can to the uninitiated.

>i don't mean to sound upset, i'm not, but a lot of this post
>doesn't even hint at being explicit. while it never promises
>that it will- which is fair- the point of the post is
>specious, at best.

Masonry itself is not explicit, it is in fact esoteric. And, the hard thing about explaining it is it's different for everyone. That's why I say ask specific questions. But, it's hard to ask specific questions with some base of knowledge.

>i mean, a guy like me might wanna be a part, but you know...

Werd, that's understandable, but...you gotta be curious enough to get your questions answered. And, when it comes to a point where your questions can only be answered from inside the craft...that's another decision you have to make.

>you guys look like you're having fun tho. lol

Indeed it was.

======
FLASH!!

  

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decaturpsalm
Member since Apr 24th 2005
19268 posts
Fri Aug-10-07 12:39 PM

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373. "my uncle died as a worshipful master a couple of weeks ago"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


I swore they read like 500 pages
at his wake

and then at the burial
they did a 45 min long ceremony

not to mention during the funeral

seemed like a pretty big deal

_______________________________________
touched like midas these bitch ass niggas they study and bite us.

  

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KosherSam
Member since Mar 18th 2004
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Fri Aug-10-07 12:41 PM

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374. "it's different by each state. i performed a funeral service last month"
In response to Reply # 373


  

          

and it wasnt more than half an hour, and i read the equivalent of maybe six 3x5 index cards

*Jews you*

"this is okp tho, reading is completely optional" (c) desus

Proceed with caution. I am overtly racist.

<-- In Pigpen we trust

  

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Amon
Member since Jan 01st 2006
2047 posts
Fri Aug-10-07 07:36 PM

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378. "Nice post/thread."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...

  

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imo
Member since Aug 09th 2007
2144 posts
Sat Aug-11-07 09:11 AM

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381. "What is the racial breakdown?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and what race founded the Masons?

  

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RemyMartin
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384. "I have NO clue."
In response to Reply # 381


  

          

And, what race is hard to say because what "Masonry" is today is an amalgamation of many different things.

**I** believe it predates the pinnacle of Egyptian thought which was then passed to the Jews for the building of King Solomon's Temple and existed in true guild form across the world until it was organized into the speculative nature it is today in England a few hundred years ago.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
70279 posts
Sat Aug-11-07 09:17 AM

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382. "How does one become a mason?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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RemyMartin
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Sat Aug-11-07 03:28 PM

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385. "Ask one."
In response to Reply # 382


  

          

If you don't know any, google and find a lodge in your area or the grand lodge of your state and tell them you are interested.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Whiteout
Member since Aug 30th 2005
3577 posts
Sun Aug-12-07 01:41 AM

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387. "I've got some serious questions..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Aug-12-07 01:44 AM by Whiteout

  

          

and by serious I mean I'm sincerely interested in your answers.

There's actually a lot of information in this post for anyone who's looking, so I've just been wondering about a few things:

"Some say you're a "Mason" before you're a Mason...that's why you become a Mason."

It kind of makes me think that any person trying to be a better person and build themselves up like that, like a Mason, then... Who's to say they aren't? At what point were you a Mason, or did you become one? How could you tell it was right for you?

The only thing I don't really get down with, upfront, is Nationalism. But I'm sure that it has some importance... maybe something I've glimpsed here has got me thinking... politics has me jaded.

So, another question: Given the clandestine nature of Freemasonry, how do you really know you're a Mason, and not just been hoodwinked or whathavya? Like how do you know you aren't being glamoured under the hostile aliens ? Haha... I say that jokingly, but I hope you understand the intent.

. . .
psn: sirius_fruits

but that shit's stupid though.

  

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RemyMartin
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Sun Aug-12-07 02:54 PM

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388. "RE: I've got some serious questions..."
In response to Reply # 387


  

          

>It kind of makes me think that any person trying to be a
>better person and build themselves up like that, like a Mason,
>then... Who's to say they aren't? At what point were you a
>Mason, or did you become one? How could you tell it was right
>for you?

That's a good question. That's an individual thing and it's important that you judge yourself. While we are responsible for keeping other masons on the right track, you are mostly responsible for keeping yourself informed and appropriate. And, for me if you go through OUR process(pretty much every lodge is different, so I can't speak for everyone) you have to put in the time and work to become a Mason, and continue to work to remain a Mason. If you dedicate yourself to doing that then you are trying to better yourself. And, that kind of feeds into you being a "Mason" before you're a Mason. You have to have it in you to go do what you need to do to become a Mason.

>The only thing I don't really get down with, upfront, is
>Nationalism. But I'm sure that it has some importance... maybe
>something I've glimpsed here has got me thinking... politics
>has me jaded.

You are charged with being a good citizen and abiding by the laws of the country where you reside. Like everything, that's left up to interpretation though.

>So, another question: Given the clandestine nature of
>Freemasonry, how do you really know you're a Mason, and not
>just been hoodwinked or whathavya? Like how do you know you
>aren't being glamoured under the hostile aliens ? Haha... I
>say that jokingly, but I hope you understand the intent.

You don't. But, I'll say, like I said above, if these powers that be are somehow subverting the ignorant and advancing their cause by me calling out bingo numbers, fellowshipping with other Masons and doing a lot of reading and contemplation on all of that...then...**shrug** so be it.

======
FLASH!!

  

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Grand_Styles
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Sun Aug-12-07 03:07 PM

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389. "Why Doez Every Prezident Have Ta Be A Freemason?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

?????

Peace & Pizza Greaze!

Anotha Keyztylebonic Vizion Prezentation!

http://myspace.com/GrandStyleDecypher
http://soundclick.com/GrandStylezlistenstation
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/halftimewnyu The Halftime Show (Wednesdays 10:30pm-1:00am)

  

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RemyMartin
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Sun Aug-12-07 03:35 PM

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390. "Start at reply #13."
In response to Reply # 389


  

          

======
FLASH!!

  

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Darryl_Licke
Member since Jun 06th 2002
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Sun Aug-12-07 08:05 PM

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391. "outside of "making good men better"...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

what are the benefits of joining? Is it purely fraternity? social works? What does one get out of being a mason outside of what one puts in(cause I see that answer coming)?

but there is nothing wrong with being odd. i mean you arent inkast or adwhizz odd. - VABestBBW
Binlahab is a bitch.
I wouldn't trust okp, some of them don't even get any anymore since the Re's stopped - Anonymous OKP

  

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RemyMartin
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Sun Aug-12-07 10:05 PM

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392. "That's all I've gotten."
In response to Reply # 391


  

          

>what are the benefits of joining? Is it purely fraternity?
>social works? What does one get out of being a mason outside
>of what one puts in(cause I see that answer coming)?


======
FLASH!!

  

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Clash Sic
Member since Jan 05th 2003
27000 posts
Sun Aug-12-07 10:10 PM

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393. "Is it true black freemasonry is different from white freemasonry?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And where do you trace the history back to? I heard freemasonry is the modern version of the ancient Egyptian mystery systems.

  

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RemyMartin
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Sun Aug-12-07 10:15 PM

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394. "RE: Is it true black freemasonry is different from white freemasonry?"
In response to Reply # 393
Sun Aug-12-07 10:15 PM by RemyMartin

  

          

At the core it's the same.

Assuming by "Black" Freemasonry you mean Prince Hall Affiliated.

There are administrative difference but the ritualistic difference aren't that different.

>And where do you trace the history back to? I heard
>freemasonry is the modern version of the ancient Egyptian
>mystery systems.

I trace it back to at least Egypt but I believe what it represents is older than that. But, I wouldn't say it's a modern version though. I'm sure things have been added and taken away since then.

======
FLASH!!

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
13256 posts
Sun Aug-12-07 10:25 PM

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395. "Would you acknowledge a female freemason?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Not an eastern star but a straight up female freemason. No-dyko.


Like if you saw a nice honey walking down the street and she had a masonic t shirt on. You talked to her and found out she had been thru the stuff you had been thru and maybe more. Would you acknowledge that?

  

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RemyMartin
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Sun Aug-12-07 10:35 PM

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396. "No."
In response to Reply # 395


  

          

======
FLASH!!

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Mon Aug-13-07 12:51 PM

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397. "ROSEWOOD"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

in the movie Rosewood a black mason let a white maso escape the law and destroyed a whole community behind keeping a secret

was he correct in his actions?

what would you have done differently, if anything?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Tue Aug-14-07 10:37 AM

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398. "RE: ROSEWOOD"
In response to Reply # 397


  

          

^^^

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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RemyMartin
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92323 posts
Tue Aug-14-07 10:43 AM

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401. "I'll have to see the movie again, I don't remember what happened."
In response to Reply # 397


  

          

>in the movie Rosewood a black mason let a white maso escape
>the law and destroyed a whole community behind keeping a
>secret

>was he correct in his actions?

If it's like you explained it, no.

>what would you have done differently, if anything?

I don't know what he did, so...

======
FLASH!!

  

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DVS
Member since Sep 13th 2002
19730 posts
Tue Aug-14-07 07:57 PM

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403. "that whole sequence....if you recall..."
In response to Reply # 397


  

          

The white guy is a Mason, and as he's running away...he announces himself to the black dude that sees him...and keeps running.

Now...the black dude's friend is like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?"

The guy who saw the signal says "But...HE'S A BROTHER!!"

The other guy says "NOT LIKE US HE ISN'T!!!"

or something to that effect.

Now...

As a Mason...you are under certain obligations to assist a fellow Mason in times of distress, as long as it doesn't affect your ability to support your family, your community...or yourself.

And that being said...Masonry is not supposed to be used as a "Get out of Jail Free" card.

So, in my eyes...dude fucked up. Maybe he was a neophyte. Maybe the shock of being recognized as a Mason by a white man who might not have reognized him in any other situation threw him for a loop.

That being said...I wasn't a Mason when I first saw that scene...but as I returned to it, it is one of my faves in the movie because it really spells out what Masonry is/isn't all about.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

http://windimoto.bandcamp.com/album/dvs-4-alderman-bandcamp-exclusive-expanded-editio

  

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LoveJonez
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Tue Aug-14-07 10:41 AM

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399. "Foe Hunnit!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...thas all

  

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LoveJonez
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Tue Aug-14-07 10:41 AM

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400. "doh!"
In response to Reply # 399


  

          

...

  

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Yank
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Tue Aug-14-07 09:15 PM

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411. "How do you feel or what is your personal take on...."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Aug-14-07 09:16 PM by Yank

  

          

The North American Union?

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/NorthAmerica_TF_final.pdf


You do know this is supposed to go down in 2010 right ?

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-15-07 10:01 AM

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415. "<CTRL> F"
In response to Reply # 411


  

          

No occurences of:

mason

were found in this document.

I'm not denying this conspiracy thing you're talking about but...this is about Masonry.

======
FLASH!!

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41538 posts
Wed Aug-15-07 10:21 AM

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417. "can an atheist be a freemason?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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RemyMartin
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Wed Aug-15-07 10:22 AM

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418. "No."
In response to Reply # 417


  

          

======
FLASH!!

  

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Pete Burns
Member since Oct 18th 2005
5455 posts
Sun Aug-19-07 03:18 PM

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419. "RE: Ask me about Freemasonry."
In response to Reply # 0


          

>Haven't done this in a minute.
>
>And...well, I'm not doing any more work today.


What the blood claaat ???

  

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