Or I should say very poor hooks.

Black folks (and a lot of white people) want they shit to be rhythmic. A good melodic hook plays a huge part in what makes a song popular.

Whether they consciously know it or not, the public wants a hook that stays with them. Some shit they can sing along to or hum to themselves. If you look at the "neo-soul" songs that did do well, they had at least somewhat of a decent hook.

But most of the shit was just rambling lyrics over a dull beat (see Voodoo) The shit just had no life or anything to make you tap your feet or want to sing along.

The stuff they called Neo-Soul never really stood a chance

So this wasn't a spin off of that

I was just thinking about all those neo-soul artists and how "un-fun" and "non-catchy" their songs were

the only one u provided was Voodoo which sold pretty damn well.

they all disagree.

fuck you.

But those were also hits

Of course they picked the cuts with the best hooks for the singles. My point is not enough of the so-called neo-soul songs had good hooks. There just wasn't enough to pick from to keep it a float.

uh...

fuck you.

It wasn't a single friendly genre

and singles drive album sales

fuck you.

I can't remember an album other than Baduizm than had 3 solid singles

I'm sure I'm missing one of two but I know there weren't a lot

these days labels often only release no more than 3 singles from an average album. the blockbuster albums get 4 to 5...in some rare cases 6 or 7.

but i see your point overall. i still don't know if i agree specifically about the singles/hook thing b/c i think of neo-soul songs w/strong hooks.

the lack of fun element is a bigger player to me.

fuck you.

It's the sing-a-long part everyone knows even if you fuck up the rest of the words. It's the signature part of the song that people remember.

and not all catchy songs are fun.

fuck you.

"fun" meaning the listener enjoying themselves while singing along

"these days labels often only release no more than 3 singles from an average album. the blockbuster albums get 4 to 5...in some rare cases 6 or 7."

Baduizm is the only one I can think of that spawned more than two hit singles. It takes more than one album or artist. This was the point. The genre (if you can really call it that) didn't have a solid foundation to build on.

there's a few more but i really don't think it proves or disproves anything.

That is NOT the sound I'm talking about

*edit*
I wouldn't lump Brown Sugar in there either

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blah blah blah

In 96 nobody knew what the hell neo-soul was or was supposed to be. Maxwell wasn't recording UHS under the label of some new "movement" he was just making a sort of retro sounding R&B record. I can see why people defending neo-soul would want to claim UHS. It's a fantastic album with great songs with actual hooks. But Maxwell was no more part of the neo-soul movement than was Sade.

...the UHS wasn't a part of the movement so to speak. What sets it apart from the cliched sound of neo-soul was that it didn't use the upright bass/rhodes/rim-shot combo that people sort of use to deride the genre.

With that said, Brown Sugar came first, then Urban Hang Suite, and then Baduizm. To me, those three discs touched off what record labels later defined as neo-soul. I know taking Maxwell out of the equation sort of refutes what the post is going for, but I always lumped him in with the others.

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blah blah blah

before that, there was what i call "The First Wave of Neo-Soul" in the mid-90s: Brown Sugar, UHS, Baduizm, Xavier, Sandra St. Victor, etc.

The High Neo-Soul Era was after Kadar had kinda organized these disparate voices and branded their sound with the name "neo-soul"... actually, i'd say the High Era officially started when SoulQs came together.

the highest point of the era was defined by either of these two phenomena:

a) the release of Voodoo
b) that group photo in VIBE

so... while i personally DO think of Brown Sugar and UHS as part of the neo-soul era, i totally understand why OP would not and does not, and for the purposes of this discussion i will respect his parameters.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

...the 'high era'. I get what you're saying, but you can't put out these parameters out there after the fact.

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blah blah blah

the music that people call "neo-soul" comes from a lot of sources:

you had Maxwell's Sade roots
Lauryn's reggae-accented style
D'Angelo's rhodes gospel
Badu's neo-Billie/Chaka
Chico's second-gen DeBarge/D ripoff

but the sound that came to DEFINE Neo-Soul™--the rimshot, the rhodes, and all that--was the SoulQuarians patented sound.

and that's the sound that most people think of when they hear "neo-soul"

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

But I'm using neo-soul to discribe the stuff that came after Baduizm. That was the first time I remember hearing that label

...I just don't agree with the post.

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blah blah blah

>the music that people call "neo-soul" comes from a lot of
>sources:
>
>you had Maxwell's Sade roots
>Lauryn's reggae-accented style
>D'Angelo's rhodes gospel
>Badu's neo-Billie/Chaka
>Chico's second-gen DeBarge/D ripoff

I would add the Tonys in there too

i'd say House of Music, at the very least, was an important contribution to the neo-soul era. but i really never think of TTT as neo-soul.

frankly, i don't consider Lauryn to be neo-soul either (because doing so would necessitate counting The Fugees under the category too), but a lot of people do... and i guess the success of Miseducation helped Voodoo succeed, so i'll allow it.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

I don't really view it as a neo-soul album but I'm not going to fight over that

The only reason I brought up the Tonys is I see them just as all those acts you listed. Influences not part of the "movement" The term Neo-Soul wasn't used until 98 or so. Calling anything before that neo-soul is a sort of revisionism.

...to make a point, but it's your post.

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blah blah blah

I made it clear in the last line of my original post

"The stuff they called Neo-Soul never really stood a chance"

They didn't call the pre-98 stuff neo-soul because the term hadn't been used yet. I'm not talking about tracing roots or anything here. I'm talking about the form of music people were calling neo-soul when it dropped. That shit was different than Maxwell and all those acts that might have influenced the post-98 group.

...I'm just saying, the term neo-soul is mentioned and a certain set of artists are going to be brought up. The term neo-soul is mentioned, and certain albums are going to be brought up. They get brought up, and then you say...'not these albums/artists'.

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blah blah blah

and that included maxwell, groove theory, dangelo, everyone.... but i think the term neo soul was being used even in 1995. but when the term (and sound/image etc) crystallised, the music started becoming much more cliched. the first wave was obviously the best, and most diverse (which wasnt the case later down the line) but its still neo soul IMO.

I'm sure someone else has mentioned this, and I apologize for the off-topic, but damn, that's quite an album cover in your avy

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

That's necessarily true. Chico Debarge had five singles off an album, that only went gold. Maxwell got three single his first time out. And D'Angelo got a whole bunch, even though none of these albums broke two million at the time they dropped.

"He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us"

some music makes it other music doesnt. grunge had hooks but we see where grunge is don't we? same thing for punk rock & funk.

that doesn't exist because theres no such thing as neo soul

ummm... no.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"