i dunno what inspired this post... maybe it has to do with imcvspl's recent posts about "Art vs. Entertainment" (which i think is kinda ridiculous).

maybe it's because of the rampant idea on these boards that things like accessibility, catchy melodies and strong hooks are hallmarks of "dumbed-down" music that is "spoon-fed" to the "sheep."

maybe it's because i watched the Songs in the Key of Life episode of "VH1 Classic Albums" and i found myself thinking that if this were anybody other than Stevie (probably the most earnest man in the universe) i would think it was all insufferably pretentious.

when did exactly did Black music start disappearing up its own arse? becoming so conscious of itself as Capital-A Art? i fucking hate it.

Black music has always been at its best when it didn't take itself too seriously, when it just wanted to entertain people and make money.

the bebop dudes stole jazz away from the masses, so the hoi polloi had to find new forms of pop music. but then the pop music started thinking of itself as Art too, and then we got totally screwed.

what the fuck, yo... WHO started this shit? was it Stevie? Marvin? Hendrix?

i wish that shit would stop. just shut up and sing a song, nigra.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

which perhaps coincidentally was my same response to impcvsls post

*********************
www.dumhi.com

>
>i wish that shit would stop. just shut up and sing a song,
>nigra.

You wish it would stop???

as it stop because it's happening NOW???

uh...

dude...Black music isn't about "art" now at all...and hasn't been in many moons...

it should start being out that again....thus it would weed out those who are only stars because of the overall lack of creativity in the mainstream of Black music...

and you'd get better music.....

in fact, when i think about it... aren't you the dude who got offended when i said that P-Funk's music was "funny" because you felt that detracted from its "artistry"?

that's the kinda shit i'm talking about.

besides, however much you might think that Black music today is not about Art, the fact is that the artists are still pumped up with bogus ideas about the artistic importance of their music. listen to Beyonce talk about her work sometime.

or look at these posts in the Lesson talking about Dilla's "compositions"

LOL

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

When an interviewer is all up in your shit asking about your process or your feelings or why you did this or that... it kind of puts you in a position where you'd better say something or look like a complete buffoon.

Contrast that with maybe the less "artful" girl groups of the 50s or 60s... no one was really putting them into the hot seat about their creative process. Those expectations simply weren't there yet.

In other words, I think this "problem" you describe had more to do with the fans and critics than the artists themselves.

-----------------------------
http://talestosuffice.com/
@kennykeil

we expect the artists to live up to a certain artistic ideal... and that's tied up in the whole bullshit "authenticity" thing that's infected (a certain segment of) Black music, too: the idea that your work is somehow less "real," less "important" if you didn't write the songs yourself and/or play the instruments.

it's ridiculous.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

it isn't art....nor do I see a reason for it to bother anyone when it's looked at as art, unless one feels that's not worthy of being considered "art"...



>in fact, when i think about it... aren't you the dude who got
>offended when i said that P-Funk's music was "funny" because
>you felt that detracted from its "artistry"?
>
>that's the kinda shit i'm talking about.

lol....that's not really accurate at all.....Of course P-Funk is funny...they used humor....irony....sattire.....all that stuff....nobody ever denied that.....

What I corrected you on before was the idea of "parody" You said that P-funk was a parody of funk...which I pointed out to you was just not true.....P-Funk was FUNK....that used Parody..in their lyrical content...image...and so forth.....parody was a big part of what they did....it was a tool they utilized...but the OBJECT of the parody was NOT funk....they were funk...they used the asthetic and their interpretation of the genre of Funk to communicate ..the style of that communication....and the content included things like humor, irony...and parody...


>
>besides, however much you might think that Black music today
>is not about Art, the fact is that the artists are still
>pumped up with bogus ideas about the artistic importance of
>their music. listen to Beyonce talk about her work sometime.

There is an artistic importance to their music....there are artistic standards that the history of Black music have set....the problem from my perspective is that the current artists simply do not measure up to a sufficient degree...They are falling short.....and many are almost dellusional about it....They are bragging about Slam Dunks they did on an 8 foot elementary school basket, as if they did it during an NBA game on a 10 foot court....


>
>or look at these posts in the Lesson talking about Dilla's
>"compositions"
>
>LOL

again...the problem with this is NOT ...the idea that music has artistic value.....the problem is that this idea has been applied to current music...and to artists that simply do not measure up...

the solution to this problem is NOT to toss out the idea that Black music was never, and should never be about art....the baby and the bath water idea comes to mind......in fact, I'd say that the idea that it should NOT be about art is part of the reason why Black music has become so artisticlly dumbed down...it's why a Kanye west can think he's competing with Innervision, because the construct of current Black music accepts the idea that those things can be remotely compared....THAT is the problem...

The solution is not to look at Black music as art....but it would be for current artists to start making better music simply put...and for the constrictions to be destroyed that have narrowed down mainstream Black music to a morphed sub-genre that by it's very nature CANNOT produce music that measures up in the big picture...

>>in fact, when i think about it... aren't you the dude who
>got
>>offended when i said that P-Funk's music was "funny" because
>>you felt that detracted from its "artistry"?
>>
>>that's the kinda shit i'm talking about.
>
>lol....that's not really accurate at all.....Of course P-Funk
>is funny...they used humor....irony....sattire.....all that
>stuff....nobody ever denied that.....
>
>What I corrected you on before was the idea of "parody" You
>said that P-funk was a parody of funk...which I pointed out to
>you was just not true.....P-Funk was FUNK....that used
>Parody..in their lyrical content...image...and so
>forth.....parody was a big part of what they did....it was a
>tool they utilized...but the OBJECT of the parody was NOT
>funk....

that's a different discussion.

i'm talking about when i made a post called "Musical Humor" (or was it "Comedy in Music"?) and i presented as an example Bernie Worrell's interpolation of nursery rhymes in the middle of solos.

you objected and said that you didn't think such interpolation was "funny," that it was "skillful"... and that any attempts to attribute humor to them made the band to be taken less seriously as accomplished musicians.

(interestingly, in the same post you seemed very defensive --almost embarrassed -- about P-Funk's clown-like stage attire and felt the need to apologize for it, as if it made them less "serious" as "artists")

>There is an artistic importance to their music....there are
>artistic standards that the history of Black music have
>set....the problem from my perspective is that the current
>artists simply do not measure up to a sufficient degree...They
>are falling short.....and many are almost dellusional about
>it....They are bragging about Slam Dunks they did on an 8 foot
>elementary school basket, as if they did it during an NBA game
>on a 10 foot court....

Berry Gordy was not thinking about Art when Motown was cranking out hits that are still evergreen today, and neither were the Funk Brothers.

they were trying to entertain, and make money. in the process they made Art.

but first and foremost, they wanted to make some loot by entertaining the audience.

in today's climate, wanting to entertain the audience is viewed as something to be ashamed of.

>the solution to this problem is NOT to toss out the idea that
>Black music was never, and should never be about art....

it wasn't, though.

it wasn't.

you think Blind Lemon Jefferson was sitting around worrying about Art? or even an uptown hipster like Cab Calloway?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>>>in fact, when i think about it... aren't you the dude who
>>got
>>>offended when i said that P-Funk's music was "funny"
>because
>>>you felt that detracted from its "artistry"?
>>>
>>>that's the kinda shit i'm talking about.
>>
>>lol....that's not really accurate at all.....Of course
>P-Funk
>>is funny...they used humor....irony....sattire.....all that
>>stuff....nobody ever denied that.....
>>
>>What I corrected you on before was the idea of "parody" You
>>said that P-funk was a parody of funk...which I pointed out
>to
>>you was just not true.....P-Funk was FUNK....that used
>>Parody..in their lyrical content...image...and so
>>forth.....parody was a big part of what they did....it was a
>>tool they utilized...but the OBJECT of the parody was NOT
>>funk....
>
>that's a different discussion.
>
>i'm talking about when i made a post called "Musical Humor"
>(or was it "Comedy in Music"?) and i presented as an example
>Bernie Worrell's interpolation of nursery rhymes in the middle
>of solos.
>
>you objected and said that you didn't think such interpolation
>was "funny," that it was "skillful"... and that any attempts
>to attribute humor to them made the band to be taken less
>seriously as accomplished musicians.

I'd disagree with your summation of that discussion....but whatever.

You calling funk "Clown music" and other things like that went a long way to me pointing out you don't seem like Funk music.....and you basiclly coming flat out and saying you didn't like it on more than one occassion....added to it too...lol

it would have been more than about 1 post.


>
>(interestingly, in the same post you seemed very defensive
>--almost embarrassed -- about P-Funk's clown-like stage attire
>and felt the need to apologize for it, as if it made them less
>"serious" as "artists")

The only embarrassment I have associated with P-funk is that I'm embarrassed that Black music hasn't risen to the level of P-Funk ...since P-Funk.....lol.

as far as embarrassment that's about it..

I would not call it defensive at all....

any conversation about funk...or P-Funk between me and you is probably going to look a certain way because I actually Like and respect the genre and it's artists....and you don't...lol. It's really that simple.



>>There is an artistic importance to their music....there are
>>artistic standards that the history of Black music have
>>set....the problem from my perspective is that the current
>>artists simply do not measure up to a sufficient
>degree...They
>>are falling short.....and many are almost dellusional about
>>it....They are bragging about Slam Dunks they did on an 8
>foot
>>elementary school basket, as if they did it during an NBA
>game
>>on a 10 foot court....
>
>Berry Gordy was not thinking about Art when Motown was
>cranking out hits that are still evergreen today, and neither
>were the Funk Brothers.

But you think about it after they made the music....It's looked at as art..and rightfully so....


>
>they were trying to entertain, and make money. in the process
>they made Art.
>
>but first and foremost, they wanted to make some loot by
>entertaining the audience.

I don't know if you can really speak to what their most primary motivation was.......You can claim that one motivation was more important than another..but that is usually going to be due to using that interpretation to support YOUR point of view...which most likely is not the reality of their actual motiviation....

a person doesn't do something because of 1 reason or motivation at the exclusivity of others.....there are various motivations at work..

but what DEFINES the outcome...the process to get to that point is NOT motivated strictly on making money.....


>
>in today's climate, wanting to entertain the audience is
>viewed as something to be ashamed of.

if it's not measuring up to the general standards of quality in Black music.....or if there is 1 person in the mainstream able to do something that 50 different people at 1 time where all doing in the mainstream at the same time......Then yes man...that is something to be ashamed of....it should garner shame.......and a person should not pretend in some alternative reality that those standards do not exist, simply to give a pass to that shit......


>
>>the solution to this problem is NOT to toss out the idea
>that
>>Black music was never, and should never be about art....
>
>it wasn't, though.
>
>it wasn't.
>
>you think Blind Lemon Jefferson was sitting around worrying
>about Art? or even an uptown hipster like Cab Calloway?
>
>

he made it VERY clear with the first record released by Motown (which he co-wrote):

hxxp://download.yousendit.com/A5F446B777EC64C8

and that's the truth, Ruth!!

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

he didn't make music sitting in a room by himself....

he didn't form the Motown sound by himself...

there were other people involved.

>he didn't make music sitting in a room by himself....
>
>he didn't form the Motown sound by himself...
>
>there were other people involved.

BINGO

inaugural member - okayplayer sports hall of fame.


what i'm digging right now:

chocolate butterfly - self-titled
laura jane - welcome to my planet boo
me & this japanese guy - waiting for the miracle
wade3 - dreams
tracey amos - who are we really?

rub her neck, her back, her vagina, and the area between her buttocks. ive also long suspected lil jon as being one of the main culprits when he and those other purveyors of all things high brow the ying yang twins made get low...

i believe Khia actually entreated her paramour to LICK the areas in question rather than rub them, though

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I don't know.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here.

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

i know that in some way it involves Black artists emulating the self-important posturing of their white rock peers, though

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

it's bad enough the media, critics, and audience treat Black music like it's disposable...we don't need more artists doing it.

no, thanks.

and Stevie has always been an exception. few artists take themselves and their work as seriously as he does. i know what you mean about that though.

fuck you.

the cream will find its way to the top nonetheless.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

*********************
www.dumhi.com

or maybe i should say "of function" more than "of commerce."

maybe they're the same thing.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

i like to think that it was anyway

*********************
www.dumhi.com

i *think* i know where you're going with it, but i'd like to hear it

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

ppl enjoyed it

industry tried to offer this enjoyment to more ppl and make money off of it

i guess i think of the irony of recorded music

at one point recorded music was simply to offer more ppl the experience of witnessing the sounds of a band they might not otherwise have the ability to experience

then recorded music got so big that it in effect killed live music

in the 50s you couldnt walk ten feet in nyc without passing a thousand places offering live music

then youd hit your neighborhood and have a handful of guys on the corner singing (obviously i wasnt alive so this is not a first hand account but...)

now everything is a dj and a live show is a novelty

i think its sort of a similar phenomenon with art vs commercial entertainment

there are certainly overlapping areas but.. product vs art are often two very seperate things

and there is also obviously grey areas

the "art" of motown was very packaged and contructed

the fact that artists of the past (the live bands for instance) still tried to entertain to gain in popularity

but i still think the root was the art and that ppl were attracted to the art and the industry (if you will) was born from this

not the other way around

*********************
www.dumhi.com

not "For Art's Sake"

art was a form of commerce in of itself, yeah?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

i personally believe art came before its "practical" purposes BUT it wasn't for the sake of art, it served a purpose that we are not really in touch with as a culture anymore...Communication was probably the key purpose, perhaps before language was a standard human practice

yep.

http://www.myspace.com/therealspreadbitch

THE PHILOSOPHY - "In the Trenches" LP
http://cdbaby.com/cd/philosophy
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=200892909
http://myspace.com/the1philosophy

between "religious/spiritual" and "practical" purposes?

there was a time when people viewed spirituality as a "practical" part of everyday life

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

but there is now...It was very practical back then, but anymore religious music is just another niche (as well it should be, God would be ashamed of much of it)
I'm just saying once it stopped serving that purpose, there was still art but the closest we get to God these days is urges and feelings, while so-called "artists" have over intellectualized art, which is more tied to feelings and emotions than critical thinking and reason.

yep.

http://www.myspace.com/therealspreadbitch

THE PHILOSOPHY - "In the Trenches" LP
http://cdbaby.com/cd/philosophy
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=200892909
http://myspace.com/the1philosophy

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

the industry (record) came to make money out of providing to the masses music created by musicians..
but those guys were already selling it..
to audiences.. in bars, concert halls, bar mizvahs, on the street, family reunion (though in this case money may not exchanged) etc..


so commerce was there.
______________________________


*TWINNING*

http://bongodoesnollywood.blogspot.com/

http://www.combandrazor.blogspot.com/

fuck you.

for some reason, i've never had those attitudes when it comes to music, though... which makes it all the more frustrating to me

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

for me its that external validation. we don't need that shit for sure, but at the same time there's no reason not to take what we do more seriously.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

you know there once was a sense that there was no art in black folk. it was all just their inherent ability. those africans playing the drums and the women dancing weren't being artistic they were being tribal and uncivilized. there was no technique involved in what they did, and so it was thereby inferior to the art which was being produced in europe.

work songs weren't art. the blues wasn't art. jazz wasn't art. i'm actually going to pause there because for me its a critical period in black music. jazz wasn't art. it was nigger sex music. nevermind the players at the club could out blow anyone in the met orchestra. it wasn't until 'standards' were developed which could be 'interpreted' in the western paradigm that it came to pass that niggers could actually be artistic.

white folk start putting together their own jazz bands. big bands blow up. everyone's dancing a jig. then the funds start slowing up, the bands get smaller, and the racism persists. some of the players start taking it upon themselves to think beyond the bounds and you get be-bop, the anti-pop jazz. you can't dance to that (necessarily). what do you do with it. appreciate it artistically.

i will admit my own bias. to me this was the greatest period ever in black music. i was born too late to actually live through it and so very likely i'm overglorifying with revisionist history, but it holds a place in my heart because one it produced some of the most amazing music and two it did so without concern for popularity. every day that passes i realize how far we are from that, and it saddens me. maybe i post out of that saddness too often.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>you know there once was a sense that there was no art in
>black folk. it was all just their inherent ability. those
>africans playing the drums and the women dancing weren't being
>artistic they were being tribal and uncivilized. there was no
>technique involved in what they did, and so it was thereby
>inferior to the art which was being produced in europe.

...i agree with you.

several times in the past we've tried to have discussions about the idea of Negro art being "inherent" and free of effort and intent. that is definitely an issue.

but the problem is the fact that you contrasted Art against Entertainment. and made it look like the latter was somehow dishonorable.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

the point was that you don't go to the art gallery talking about what's popping off at the club, in the same vain you don't go to the club talking about the values of high art. round these parts its almost an unspoken that if its music its supposed to be for the club, or why would you be doing it?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

not usher
not timbaland
not lil jon
not ludacris
not TI
not wyclef
etc etc etc

the only people thinking about black music as 'art' are underground or 'left field'

not the ones 'entertaining' the ppl or making loot

which means its not as influential or pervasive....yet you want less ~(not you but HIM)? wtf?
_____________________________
patiently waiting for the Pumpkins to come back...

http://breakbeatproductions.blogspot.com

>not usher
>not timbaland
>not ludacris
>not TI
>not wyclef

All of these artists are most definitely concerned with critical impact as well as commercial success.

what makes Usher or Ludacris worthy of inclusion, but Lil' Jon not?

===========================

"Pimping ain't art...but grabbing guns is?!"
(c) Menphyel

"I've come to realise that I never loved Hip-Hop as a whole,
just a particular era that happened at the same time as
I was actively checking actively for new music."

apparently it's hardly music at all, but rather background noise for a chorus of cash registers singing "ch-ching! ch-ching!"

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."