http://thedailyswarm.com/swarm/rational-conversation-spins-christopher-r-weingarten-tackles-indie-rap-revisionism-following-el-ps-cancer4cure/

Really really dope and insightful article on a topic that very rarely gets talked about (at least outside of peoples' personal conversations).

www.twitter.com/seandammit

**closes tab**

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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___________________________
OL' DIRTY BASTARD on himself:
"I may curse, I may have a bad mouth, whatever whatever. I'm not that bad, yaknow'mean. Bad to y'all, I dunno how y'all... I don't give a fuck. Um, I'm a good person at heart, for real and shit.

Interesting discussion of how/why people feel in order to prop up one style/artist, they gotta tear something else down. Pretty familiar mindset here in OKP.

I still do disagree on some points:
1. Underground hip-hop from 2004-07 was pretty excellent
2. Blazing Arrow is a better album than Laying the Smack Down
3. I liked Ugly Duckling, dammit. "Taste the Secret" was heat. Not backing down from that.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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>
>I still do disagree on some points:
>1. Underground hip-hop from 2004-07 was pretty excellent

What albums are you referring to?

>
>>
>>I still do disagree on some points:
>>1. Underground hip-hop from 2004-07 was pretty excellent
>
>What albums are you referring to?

Jeez, off the top, there are the "underground" (going off the articles definition) albums that are fairly known/well-respected on OKP:
Below the Hevens
Beauty and the Beat
Madvillainy
MM... Food
Moonlighting
UN or U Out?
Both A Piece of Strange and Dirty Acres
Monkey Barz
MURS 3:16 and Murray's Revenge
Donuts (released on Stones Throw, so it counts)
etc.

Then there's stuff listed in the article:
Juggaknots - Use Your Confusion
Blueprint - 1988

Then there's all type of other stuff released over that time period:
One Be Lo - S.O.N.O.G.R.A.M.
capital D - Both Insomina and Return of the Renegade
Illogic - Celestial Clockwork
People Under the Stairs - Stepfather
Count Bass D - Act Your Waist Size
Atmosphere - You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having
Soul Position - 8 Million Stories and Things Go Better With RJ and Al
Asamov - And Now
Willie Evans Jr. - Communication
Roddy Rod - Blunt Park Sessions
Kenn Starr - Starr Status
P.O.S. - Audition
Insight - The Blast Radius
Y Society - Travel at Your Own Pace
Zion I and Grouch - Heroes in the City of Dope
Five Deez - Kommunicator
Super Chron Flight Brothers - Emergency Powers

...and that's just a few off the top.

-----------------

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There's def some quality albums on there but most of the artists on there did better albums pre-2005 or so.

LOL!!

Don't take me to task Hood. I'm just making a point.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I even said as much in the post. And I think more than four of those qualify as independent. I know you're counting distribution, but there's a big difference between Caroline and Warner Bros.

-----------------

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1) ...and this stands in direct opposition to your first point (haha), but the Def Jux releases (as well as other albums in the overall genre) *did* kind of weaken as the decade progressed. Not saying that it was garbage, but it seems a little funny that they don't acknowledge at all that it could have been more than just coincidence/other factors at hand.

2) ISWYD was far from "quietly praised." I mean, it garnered legitimate fanfare and critical acclaim, as far as I'm concerned.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

>1) ...and this stands in direct opposition to your first
>point (haha), but the Def Jux releases (as well as other
>albums in the overall genre) *did* kind of weaken as the
>decade progressed. Not saying that it was garbage, but it
>seems a little funny that they don't acknowledge at all that
>it could have been more than just coincidence/other factors at
>hand.

Eh, it all depends how big of a fan of Aesop, Cage, and Hangar 18 that you are. In all seriousness, Def Jux's output certainly slowed down. After ISWYD, they released, what, maybe five albums? I'm a fan of "None Shall Pass" and "Sweep the Leg," but not one of "Depart From Me" (the album credited with "killing" Def Jux, though I think that's putting too much on it). As the decade moved on, their artists were leaving the label to do their own thing.

>2) ISWYD was far from "quietly praised." I mean, it garnered
>legitimate fanfare and critical acclaim, as far as I'm
>concerned.

Yeah, I agree with you here.

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>"Depart From Me" (the album credited with
>"killing" Def Jux, though I think that's putting too much on
>it).

any specific sources on that? i'm not putting you on the spot or anything. but i had to ask because i fuckin love that album.

on one hand i'm disappointed that that's how folks see it. but on the other hand, i think it's kinda funny in light of the articles written on cage and his history as a self-sabateur (the SPIN article from 2009, in particular). like, fuck it, i'ma take the whole label down!!!

all in all, i just wish that people could appreciate that album like i do.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

http://www.last.fm/user/_CondoM_/

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

I never really dug any deeper into their discography but that one was dope to me.

And 04-07 had some great records. Brother Ali's The Undisputed Truth, P.O.S's Audition, Murs 3:16 and Murray's Law, Aesop Rock's None Shall Pass, El-P's I'll Sleep When You're Dead, Cunninlynguists' A Piece of Strange, Felt 2, Atmosphere's You Can't Imagine How Much Fun We're Having, MF Doom's MMM...Food.

And those are just the bigger records that I think of off the top of my head, there are lots of smaller releases that I loved.

that ep was dope.

. . .are the REAL revisionists. Taste the Secret was praised as the next step in hip hop from some quarters (and some of those in relatively mainstream publications).

I always preferred Journey to Anywhere. But anyone who was into Ugly Duckling ten years ago should be proud of themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqhtYiOz9M

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

>Interesting discussion of how/why people feel in order to
>prop up one style/artist, they gotta tear something else down.
>Pretty familiar mindset here in OKP.
>
>I still do disagree on some points:
>1. Underground hip-hop from 2004-07 was pretty excellent
>2. Blazing Arrow is a better album than Laying the Smack Down
>3. I liked Ugly Duckling, dammit. "Taste the Secret" was heat.
>Not backing down from that.


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

I do think backpack rap kinda sucking from 05 to 11 or so was the biggest factor in critics migrating over to Southern music though.

if your not a fan that's another thing entirely

I lost interest in backpacker hip for the second half of the 00s due to the rise of a cleaner and less confrontational sound (i.e. Little Brother, BTH-era Blu etc etc).

good stuff man.

I remember when El-P got his mic snatched @ SXSW in 1996, but ...oh wait....

one
k. orr

http://www.last.fm/user/_CondoM_/

I always felt his albums were almost fully-realized. Most of the songs on I, Phantom are quality in and of themselves but it's a complete mess as a concept album.

I remember Akrobatik's solo record having some quality shit as well. Anyone know if he recovered from that heart attack from a few months ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK5hLhhMf-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhMqdATQj_E&feature=related

Really fucking quality stuff.

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

for an autographed poster.

He's been spending the last year or so touring the world with Thievery Corporation as well, so I think his career is doing pretty darn good.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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Not as good as I Phantom, but better than Mo Mega (which was quite good too).

I just want him to do an album with Edan. Making Planets is one of my favourite rap songs ever.

http://www.last.fm/user/_CondoM_/

...wonder why they just don't do an entire album?

>
>...wonder why they just don't do an entire album?

And they are. He's working on it now.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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1)The underground vs regional schism which is still readily apparent on OKP.

2) I love this part:

ED: You think they praise black artists for stepping outside of the proscribed barriers of what black music is supposed to sound like, but then go back to wanting “authentic” black music?

CWR: I think that may be an accurate description of what happens – though, just to be safe, throw a couple of extra David Shapiro scare quotes on ““““authentic.””””” People praise black artists for making connections to contemporary alternative music, and then call it corny five years later. It happens all the time. It’s really aggravating and totally racist.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Id also say that the current crop of popular 'underground' rappers are a firmer breed and with more commercial aspirations then what you had in the what the article called the 'dead' years. Many of those acts would not thrive in this environment doing what they were doing in 2008 imho.

"A new generation of writers came in who didn’t have the prejudice against Southern rap or Bad Boy/Roc-A-Fella that many established music writers had, and the older writers didn’t want to feel out of touch;"

....

"In 2005, Pitchfork started reviewing random tracks from Saigon and Maino mixtapes all of a sudden. For a while, it wasn’t about what was actually rising to the top, but instead finding obscure pockets and exposing them. But then a LOT of music writing in 2004 to 2007 was like that. Not just rap writing!"

....

"Everyone has suspect taste in what they’ve liked in the past and what they like now. That shit shouldn’t be ignored, and it shouldn’t be called “guilty pleasures.” That’s having a subjective opinion."

....

"People praise black artists for making connections to contemporary alternative music, and then call it corny five years later. It happens all the time. It’s really aggravating and totally racist."

....

Only thing I learned from this is that these guys are obviously so cool and above all the stuff they are talking about.

white critics who liked hip-hop from the periphary are now happy having taken over the journalism. indie = white. and it isn't about underground rap. it's about the taste of these folks and their positions to dictate the trends of hip-hop despite the (black) fans that have criticized them all along the way. which isn't to say the black fans were right or anything like that. but like i said it's lie a circle jerk. "Hey man we stuck it out and now the guy we're in the position to actually call the stuff we really like the top shit!!!"
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I didn't really understand what point was actually to be made, outside of a bunch of plea coppage.

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

because i know we're in the same boat about white critics colonizing the area of rap journalism, but i'm unclear about what ur criticizing in this article: the content, the writers in particular or the idea

but that's to be expected.

lwhy isn't this piece about the equally praised album from a 90's legend who had more of a universal appeal in the underground (OC and Apollo Brown)? Because they aren't "indie" enough get it. Oh but they made reference to all those other underground acts that.... *shrug*

Remember back in the 90's underground when it was ok to be a white rapper? Remember growing up looking at hip-hop from the outside while everyone laughed at your white ass. Look who's laughing now!! Ya made it. All that sucking off at the ironic cooning of the 2000's paid off!! You can look back and laugh at those OKP nerds who sit in their bedroom jerking off to Blazing Arrow (no knock to Blazing Arrow cause you actually like that album). Point being that you are the perfect rap listener because you take it all with a grain of salt while being able to say enough to give indication you actually care about it. A post-modern comparison of Gucci Mane and Biz Markie, you got it covered. You make the history now which is a good thing because you're so much more objective than those old classicists. It's a new day. THIS is hip-hop.

At any rate I'm babbling. Kind of like them. Get it...

Delete

It's an average album for a 90s legacy act so an extremely vocal contingent praises it to the heavens and then forgotten about. The new Oddisee album which is better producer/rapped, but he's gotten some press from Pitchfork and other "hipster" publications so you're probably already planning a backlash.

And I have heard the El-P and think it's great. And your reply in one fell swoop proves *exactly* what I'm talking about while making false assumptions about me. Go figure.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Then take your supporting qualifiers and add a twist of "...and that's what makes it not 'indie'" and maybe you'll see my point.

You're going to be better off directly stating what you're feeling. Noz can pull that shit off, not you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

You should write for Stereogum!

only snarky if you look at it one dimensionally. LOL... I'm fucking with you. but I did address you proper as well. my bad. one of those days.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>one of those days.

No worries.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

i've heard some of CoFlows members complain about El-P getting all the credit for that group

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

which does suck becuase Juss' lyrics are just as brutal/vivid/great as El's, and Mr. Len's dj work is an essential part of the album. Plus I'm sure they all had a hand in sequencing and which songs made the album

Bigg Juss was a super duper crucial part to the greatness of Company Flow.

But at the same time, he hasn't been able to elevate himself above and beyond that old brand and group.

I just wish there were more rap groups. I respect the hell out of El-P as a rapper and an artist, but I would be so much more interested in listening to one of his albums if he had a rhyme partner to counter-balance what he brings to the table. El-P had my favorite verses on a ton of those old Co-Flow cuts and posse tracks--classic rapping, IMO--but it's just not the same when there's not another emcee to come in before or after him on a track.

I miss hip hop groups.

>I just wish there were more rap groups.

>I miss hip hop groups.

I love El-P solo. Awesome discography. But there's just something about the group dynamic that when done right is so special (not just in regards to El-P, but in general).

The different voices, styles, viewpoints, personalities.
__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2629263&mesg_id=2629263

I interviewed him right before ISWYD dropped, and he said that when he got into the game, he expected that he'd be Co Flow forever. It just didn't work out like that.

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see that's whats bothered me so much about rap coverage in the middle of the aughts, it was white males who grew in middle class suburbs, who aquired their taste for rap through the internet, becoming the new gate keepers. they grew up with the commercial stuff of the late 90s/early aughts, which was in direct opposition to the stance of the old guard, and felt no qualms about their positions, because they're white, middle class, and entitled/privileged. they just willy nilly will jump on whatever wave and stick their noses up at whoever is now in opposition to them and the new face/sound of rap.

While the old gaurd Hsa Hsu, Sach Jenkins, Nelson George, Toure, Greg Tate, Kevin Powell, Jeff Chang were urban people of color who not only were participating in "the culture", but organizing events and writing about it, the new guard and their technocrat privilege came in and basically re-wrote the rules after the groundwork was laid.

i'm not saying there weren't flaws with the old gate keepers of rap writing, but they were intrinsically part of what was going on and had accumulated knowledge of rap music that wasn't tied to torrent downloads that all of the sudden makes some one an expert on UGK or Project Pat after one week.

right now all the major writer are: Noz, Briehan, Soderberg, Sean Fennesy, Jeff Weiss, Jayson Greene, etc all white and all arrogant cock suckers (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF WEISS) who if you follow them on tumblr or twitter are dismissve of their own followers and circle jerk each other constantly.

it makes me roll my eyes constantly

why that "gilded cage of the Okayplayer ghetto" line bothered me more than anything else I ever read.

>see that's whats bothered me so much about rap coverage in
>the middle of the aughts, it was white males who grew in
>middle class suburbs, who aquired their taste for rap through
>the internet, becoming the new gate keepers. they grew up with
>the commercial stuff of the late 90s/early aughts, which was
>in direct opposition to the stance of the old guard, and felt
>no qualms about their positions, because they're white, middle
>class, and entitled/privileged. they just willy nilly will
>jump on whatever wave and stick their noses up at whoever is
>now in opposition to them and the new face/sound of rap.
>
>While the old gaurd Hsa Hsu, Sach Jenkins, Nelson George,
>Toure, Greg Tate, Kevin Powell, Jeff Chang were urban people
>of color who not only were participating in "the culture", but
>organizing events and writing about it, the new guard and
>their technocrat privilege came in and basically re-wrote the
>rules after the groundwork was laid.
>
>i'm not saying there weren't flaws with the old gate keepers
>of rap writing, but they were intrinsically part of what was
>going on and had accumulated knowledge of rap music that
>wasn't tied to torrent downloads that all of the sudden makes
>some one an expert on UGK or Project Pat after one week.
>
>right now all the major writer are: Noz, Briehan, Soderberg,
>Sean Fennesy, Jeff Weiss, Jayson Greene, etc all white and all
>arrogant cock suckers (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF WEISS) who if you
>follow them on tumblr or twitter are dismissve of their own
>followers and circle jerk each other constantly.
>
>it makes me roll my eyes constantly


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

Certainly not in the company of most of the guys you listed. He does a fair amount of coverage to boom bap so I'm assuming you're giving him a pass for that but, overall, dude is corny.

Also, if arrogance is a huge turn off for you, I'd stay away from any back issues of Ego Trip and anything written by Nelson George.

in the quality department. also he's one of the few that have knowledge of rap that is rooted in being part of "the culture". As in he actually organizes event in and around LA for up and coming artist. He also, you know, actually hires writes of color for Passion Weiss and doesn't act like a gate keeper.

and you mistake snark for dick-headedness. Ego-Trip are rap journalism super heros FOH even trying to put them with douchbaggery of Fennesy or Soderberg. that arrogance you may feel from Nelson and others comes from you know creating an alternative to the 2nd wave of rap journalism that began in the early 90s and basically being the old guys now, but whatever. it's typical of likkle youth to shit on the older headz who opened rodes for rap and rap writing when every one else ghetto-ized the work

Weiss isn't that much better. He features some good writers on his site (Mobb Deen) in particular and seems like a nice guy, but other than that, his writing is a total mess. He's been writing about Low End Theory for 3 years or so (before that he was bigging up Slaughterhouse) and has yet to find an interesting angle. His showcases are in Silver Lake (that epicenter of hip hop) and usually involve a rapper whose gotten tons of blog praise months prior(Exquire, Gibbs) sandwiched between two middling indie rock/dubstep acts. Dude also went to Beverly High so you might want to lose your mental image of him walking thought Leimert Park looking for the next Freestyle Fellowship.

Your deification of Nelson George is also a bit absurd. Hip Hop America is a bunch of self-aggrandizing stories masquerading as journalism/reportage.

The Ego Trip brain trust are national treasures so I'm not quite sure why you think I'm shitting on them. You came into this post with a half-baked agenda as it shows.



>douchbaggery of Fennesy or Soderberg. that arrogance you may
>feel from Nelson and others comes from you know creating an
>alternative to the 2nd wave of rap journalism that began in
>the early 90s and basically being the old guys now, but
>whatever. it's typical of likkle youth to shit on the older
>headz who opened rodes for rap and rap writing when every one
>else ghetto-ized the work

didn't say anthing about Weiss being some saint, IMO he just doesn't have the same entitled prickness of the others. Yes Deen is the man, as is Abe.

you picked Nelson out of the writers that i listed off the top that i grew up on. if you wanted to pick a proper dick out fo that list it should've been Toure, but that's neither here no there.

and aint nuthin half-baked about it. you wrote this:

"Also, if arrogance is a huge turn off for you, I'd stay away from any back issues of Ego Trip and anything written by Nelson George."


from your responses to me and imvcspl you seem to have some sort of investment in shitting on rap (and writers) your not a fan of. while we're talking about systemic ironies and inconsistencies that do nothing more than reify the new fortress

It was just the same "Sky is falling/Save Hip Hop from these hipsters" bullshit. Hip hop was around before Pitchfork and will be around after. You're greatly exaggerating the influence that Spin and Pitchfork have on the music as a whole to support your "theories."

Also, those earlier writers you championed (whom Im a fan of as wel), for the most part, totally ignored the South in the 90s when alot of great music was coming out of it. Bottom line: everybody has their blind spots, so lose the "it was so much better back in the day" bullshit.






>didn't say anthing about Weiss being some saint, IMO he just
>doesn't have the same entitled prickness of the others. Yes
>Deen is the man, as is Abe.
>
>you picked Nelson out of the writers that i listed off the top
>that i grew up on. if you wanted to pick a proper dick out fo
>that list it should've been Toure, but that's neither here no
>there.
>
>and aint nuthin half-baked about it. you wrote this:
>
>"Also, if arrogance is a huge turn off for you, I'd stay away
>from any back issues of Ego Trip and anything written by
>Nelson George."
>
>
>from your responses to me and imvcspl you seem to have some
>sort of investment in shitting on rap (and writers) your not a
>fan of. while we're talking about systemic ironies and
>inconsistencies that do nothing more than reify the new
>fortress

too bad no one said the sky is falling. hip hop / rap is in a great place.

i don't really have a problem with anything i just think it's a bunch of shit. actually that's wrong i addressed the one problem i have specifically - the use of the word racism. Read this:

"People praise black artists for making connections to contemporary alternative music, and then call it corny five years later. It happens all the time. It’s really aggravating and totally racist."

Who are the people that they are talking about? We know they are talking about black artists. "Contemporary alternative" has to equal white indie to juxtapose against in order for it to think of being qualified as being racist. So again who are the people. A couple of times in the piece they talk about message boards, they also talk about rock critics, and crotchety rap critics. So which one of those 'people' that do such praise and dismissal? And would any of them qualify as racism? Hardly. But it's the type of thing you say to make yourself not look like a racist for your clearly biased opinions which are offered as objective.

But it's really just a big LOL to me as far as the whole piece goes.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

...people don't make the connection with the musical style of OFWGKTA's early stuff with Company Flow's music from 15 years ago.

Co Flow's sound was derived from Bomb Squad while Tyler's originated from the Neptunes.

That shit sounds quite similar. OF stuff does not sound like Neptunes. Co-Flow did not sound like Bomb Squad.

Do you think El-P/CoFlow influenced OF/Tyler.

Also, many, if not most, of Tyler's beats have a distinct and noticable Neptunes influence.

Who fucking cares if Tyler said theyre influenced by the Neptunes. That shit sounded way more like Co Flow and El-P beats than it did Neptunes. I swear everyone lets people plant ideas in their head. Listen to the music. That shit sounds like Neptunes to you?

It probably never caught on to music writers because they didn't listen to that stuff. They were too caught up in the Clipse mixtapes and how funny Lil B is to understand the history and evolution of rap music.

Listen to the music with your ears.

You really don't hear a Neptunes influence in Tyler's keyboards?Also, wasn't most of this post about how those writers indeed listened to CoFlow/El-P and then distanced themselves from them?

Listen to the music with your head out of your ass.


>It probably never caught on to music writers because they
>didn't listen to that stuff. They were too caught up in the
>Clipse mixtapes and how funny Lil B is to understand the
>history and evolution of rap music.
>
>Listen to the music with your ears.

i mean i know me and you both could link up songs where Tyler directly sounds like a Neptunes disciple

a lot of the Co Flow comparison i believe stems from the aesthetic/sound of Bastard and Earl along with the "independent as fuck (skate punks)" attitude they have. but right now OF releases are more on the Neptunes sound of things than anything Co Flow/El-P inspired

Of course there are some Neptunes influence, and yes I can hear it. But that shit doesn't sound like Neptunes beats. My first impression of Tyler's production was that It sounds like CoFlow type beats, and I had no idea who it was or what they stood for when I first heard it.

Both of yall have cited things that were spoon fed via interviews/marketing and such--skaters, Neptunes influence, Independent as fuck. None of that stuff informed my first impression of the music.

I'm not trying to suggest that OF's music was any better or worse for sounding like Company Flow, or that it was intentional. Bottom line is that it was the first thing that came to mind for me when I heard it.

And I have no clue what current OFWGKTA sounds like because I haven't checked any of the new shit. I'm going off of what I thought when I first heard 'Earl' and 'Bastard' in 2010, as well as my first impression of 'Yonkers.' I only listened to the 'Goblin' album a few times and will likely never listen to it again.

But for NONE of the critics/bloggers/et al mentioning Company Flow when OFWGKTA was blowing up was remarkable considering how they were critical darlings 15 years ago, and considering how El-P is now once again a critical darling makes it even more remarkable. It's as though none of these current critics were "well-read" in any of the real core of the indie-rap movement that was spearheaded by Company Flow in the mid-to-late-nineties.

And what's the title of this thread? Indie-rap revisionism.

The whole entire history is rewriting itself before my eyes.

>i mean i know me and you both could link up songs where Tyler
>directly sounds like a Neptunes disciple
>
>a lot of the Co Flow comparison i believe stems from the
>aesthetic/sound of Bastard and Earl along with the
>"independent as fuck (skate punks)" attitude they have. but
>right now OF releases are more on the Neptunes sound of things
>than anything Co Flow/El-P inspired

I feel Co-Flow in Tyler's tuff, especially

harder now than they were at the time. Tons of Def Jux's shit was written off on the Lesson as "too weird" ten years ago.

. . .I think all of us who were there at the time and bought 'End to End Burner' on 12" and listened to the Cold Vein a lot that pre-9/11 summer can now logically look back at what he was doing and say that he actually was ahead of his time.

The synths, the polyrhythms, the chaos. His music from ten years ago actually sounds like it could've been released last week.

I like that new Killer Mike album. I probably won't buy it. I have not heard cancer4cure. Was never the biggest CoFlow fan, but I was into them at the time.

I'm certainly not a fan of everything he's done, but I can now look back and realize that he has been pretty poignant with what he's done.

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

Dude will probably have a career making music for the rest of his life.

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

if you check the archives or do a search many of the "headz" claiming him right now have been championing El for years. The reason being he has constantly been one of the few quality providing and progressive artist on the underground or mainstream that came up in the 90s.

shit personally, when Thanes made that post about legends and many were taking the you have to be popular to be a legend position, i with a few others, resisted that position and one of the people I brought up was El-P.

Co Flow was bumpin' in my walkman when i was a toy writer in high school taggin N trying to get my name up, FanDam was one of the few albums i consistantly played during my years in college, ISWYD was my soundtrack after college when i was struggle to find work; that shit even in its populist dystopian nihilism kept me motivated. and now as a working professional Cancer 4 Cure and RAP Music have been blazing out my whip's windows

so miss me and others with that "more heads claiming El-P now" the Lesson is one of the few places that ALWAYS KNEW how immensely that dude is

Hell, I think he even pops up and posts from time to time. Otherwise, he's prolly to busy fucking fashion school girls.

I've been riding for Co-Flow since Juvenile Techniques.
We love Cann Ox.
We loved Camu Tao - rip.

It's that 2nd wave of def jukkies that didn't really inspire the posts, but I don't think those cats were hated.

one
k. orr

that people really began to ignore

>We loved Camu Tao - rip.

Unless it was before my time, but I don't remember him or any of his groups/work getting any love on here until he died.

As far as I can remember, just about everything else associated with El-P (besides a couple of people trashing Hell's Winter, and everybody shitting on Depart From Me) has been almost universally praised on here.

http://www.last.fm/user/_CondoM_/

it was never on par with guys like Kweli, Mos or Monch. Enough people wrote off Fan Dam as being too weird to be considered straight "hip hop". The beef with Sole did alot legitimize him because he was taking down a rapper with less cred than him.