I'm bored and drunk and my gf and baby are sleeping but basically, discussions about downloading and various formats and yada-yada seem to generate more interest than the actual *music*. I'm NOT saying these issues aren't important or that they won't affect the way we view music and yada-yada (they obviously do) but still, they are not really about the actual music, are they?

It says a lot about current music that the best way to get hundreds of responses is to make a post about these issues...

EDIT:And this is in no way a jab at dalecooper's highly informative thread on some of these issues which made it clear where a lot of lessonheads stand (I'm on the side of dale/AFKAP if anyone cares but I grew up on digging in the crates and is clearly out of the loop), just a general observation...

even though I'm usually all up in them.

I think a lot of people find those discussions interesting, or at least stimulating... I don't know if it says something about the quality of the music that arguing over the mode of distribution/consumption is more engaging than discussing the music itself... or if it just says something about the posters we have here.

Maybe people like me, disco, dalecooper, etc are just too old and out of touch and baffled by the new world to the point that we're unable to see the trees for the forest.

But I do think to some degree that it has something with music becoming less and less significant in general.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>even though I'm usually all up in them.

me too, oddly enough, lol.


>
>I think a lot of people find those discussions interesting, or
>at least stimulating... I don't know if it says something
>about the quality of the music that arguing over the mode of
>distribution/consumption is more engaging than discussing the
>music itself... or if it just says something about the posters
>we have here.


Bingo. And THAT'S what fucks it up. the Armchair A&R shit.


>
>Maybe people like me, disco, dalecooper, etc are just too old
>and out of touch and baffled by the new world to the point
>that we're unable to see the trees for the forest.


The sad thing is, I think I'm adjusting to "the New World" just fine. It burns my ass that people forget that the Old World is what set the stage. I have no problem with things changing. But it's just a bitch to see people act like the old ways no longer have any meaning...

I know it's a bit melodramatic ( and perhaps self-incriminating), but it's akin to not listening to your grandparents when they try to tell you shit.

"You don't get to be old bein' no fool...a lotta young wise men? they deader than a muthafucka, ain't they?" (C) Richard Pryor by way of Mudbone


>
>But I do think to some degree that it has something with music
>becoming less and less significant in general.

Yep. and the sad thing is people EMBRACE this whole "music as a disposable commodity" way of thinking.

______________



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I have no problem with them when people are making informed commentary. But there seems to be a lot of people who think that making music is either a hobby, a hustle, or something in between. And as a result, a LOT of people confuse "making music" with the Music Business.


The whole: "change up your hustle or get outta the game" shit is what kills these discussions.

______________



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I started a thread about Rick James Garden of Love and was just wanting to get folks' different perspectives and experiences with that album because. . . well, I'm a dork, I guess, and I like that sort of thing because it helps me appreciate the topic of the discussion.

It went double wood and I had to up it a few times to get people to respond (in hopes that people would come in and basically just dork out and talk about the album). A couple people did. But a pretty unsuccessful post overall.

At that point, I think I subconsciously decided to stop making new topics because I just haven't felt like it was worth it for two reasons: 1) I'm not really respected as someone who knows hip hop around here and that's the bulk of the discussion and 2) the sentiment of this topic (because nine out of ten, that's what it ends up as).

No disrespect AFKAP. Just joshin'.

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

Because I'm supposed to be one of the boogie guys in here and as such, I should have been all up in that post?

I guess that might be understandable, because I sort of thought the same thing when I saw that post... but after reading it, I realized that I didn't have much to add to it.

Did I reply to it at all, saying I would be back or did I not say anything at all? I know I intended to come back to it...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Kind of using you as an example for, 'Well, if even AFKAP doesn't want to dig deep into purely discussion of THE MUSIC, then you know we're fucked.'

Cynical negative guy jokes. Har har.

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

I really did want to participate in that post, by the way... It's just that Garden of Love happens to be one of the Rick James albums I am least intimate with.

I have memories of it from my childhood but I really have not listened to it at all since I was like 12. I bought it on vinyl recently but I've not gotten around to really digging into it.

More than anything, I was hoping to learn from that post because I know a lot of people have radical views on it (and I believe disco has some interesting info about it) but it never really took off.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

And it depends what angle people are talking about but I sometimes find them fun.

It could be about content creation and management in the digital age, it can be about past and future models for distribution and creation of sounds/movements/sustainability.

It could be about the indie or the pop side of content making and how that relates to the above questions.

It could be about so many things and they're all important to talk about because that's where ideas come from.

You'll always have cavedwellers attempting to hold on to a past that has always and will always continue to slip away--that can only be sampled and never ever relived again.

And you'll always have your progressive evangelists.

Fine. Somewhere alone that spectrusm lie answers and understanding.

Some are looking for answers, others are looking for understanding and even more are just looking for a great discussion.

They're necessary.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

Sheesh.

Substance, man. Put some in your posts.

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

Look, I engage in those kinds of conversations ALL day in some capacity. Most of the time I'm just listening.

It's not an ego thing. It's an interest thing. If you're not interested the answer seems simple to me: don't click on the posts.

Or are you interested in your ego?

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

No, I'm interested in discussion of music, plain and simple. Anything beyond the music makes me feel like the person discussing such ephemera doesn't have the same interests as me and said discussion probably won't go very far.

Ego never enters the picture with me. I suck at life and have said as much in the past. I'm not important and what I have to say probably doesn't matter in the long run.

But I do love music. For whatever it's worth.

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

I don't approach content differently because the marketplace, as it is currently, has proven that users/customers/audiences don't differentiate where it comes from or it's purpose based on concepts of craft.

Lolcats get filed away in a folder and possibly forgotten just like movies, seasons of a cable series or discographies of a musical artist do.

Or they're bookmarked, liked, linked and shared in the same fashion depending on how easily they are bookmarked, liked, linked and shared.

And now with the barriers to entry lowered, with less time needed to invest in that Patten Oswalt ( http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_angrynerd_geekculture/all/1)sense of Everything That Ever Was: Available Forever sense...concusmers can catch up then cache up.

In this information buffet the central question of what creates value is important, I think. Many of us here are content creators in some way. If we have an idea of what creates realized value then we can have a nuanced conversation about what COULD be important to keep in mind when creating media.

We can pretend like pop greats in any discipline from documentary film makers like Michael Moore or Rockers like Cobain didn't think about formulas and how to toe the line between what works to tell their story and what will be needed to create an audience for it.

But what would be the point in that?


If audiences/consumers/end users only care about content's utility and that utility's relatinoship to additional content they already have access to or will have access to in the long and short run it matters.

We don't have to have that discussion here but that discussion needs to be had and is being had elsewhere.

That's what I'm interested in as both an avid producer and a consumer of media.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

. . .is that I'm interested in the end result and how they arrived at it, where you're, very generally speaking, interested in the potential of all things.

Which makes me the cynical ass?

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

in the same thing. But I'm just looking at it from a meta perspective. Meta-media. Because I think that form comes from that or at least is influenced by that context.

PE mattered in the early 90s because they could get those records done. Once sampling arrived on the radar there was way for a shockley and crew to stretch their imagination.

That's an issue of media law and ethics directly impactinting content. So we're in this digital age, fine. There's no way to hit a rewind button.

my question is: what now?

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

The long-play record influenced the way we listen to music...the 'form' sort-of-speak.....10 songs, 50 minute running times. This is not some sort of 'natural' we to listen to music....the medium itself determined the way we came to expect music to be delivered.

When the cd took over, you can notice how the sequencing of records changed because there was no longer a side 1 and 2. With vinyl, an artist usually has some sort of denoument track at the end of side 1 with some sort of 're-introduction' at the beginning of side 2. This manifested in different ways...but you could make a generalization that side 1 ended with a more down-tempo type of song and Side 2 started with something more intense.

In any case....the mediums/formats definitely have an impact on the actual content of the music....so these discussions don't bore me. I find the moral side of the debate a little boring though. It's kind of like being 'anti-glacier' when a big slab of ice slowly moves towards your village. The glacier is morally ambiguous. It's a waste of time to paint it this way or that way.

>I find the moral side of the debate a little
>boring though. It's kind of like being 'anti-glacier' when a
>big slab of ice slowly moves towards your village. The
>glacier is morally ambiguous. It's a waste of time to paint
>it this way or that way.

The glacier itself may be morally neutral, but its advance does impose myriad moral ramifications upon society.

Do we stay in the village and meet our death with dignity?
Do we move away from the path of the glacier?
If we are to move, how do we move?
Do we uproot our village brick by brick and relocating it elsewhere?
Or do we just move, leaving everything behind?
Or do we move not en masse at all, but as random individuals, abandoning our cultural identity altogether?

Do we decide that since we are all going to be destroyed by this slab of ice, that nothing matters anyway and we abandon all social structure and "morals"?

These are important questions and I find that in these discussions that the aspect of human agency is often willfully ignored.

I should say that I have NEVER seen anybody in these discussions come out as blatantly "anti-glacier" as you put it. Digital sharing is here and there's no way to put it back into Pandora's box... I don't think anybody has called for that.

But the issue is how we react to this glacier and what it means to culture and art (yes... I still believe such a thing exists) is the issue that most of us grapple with here.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I'm interested in discussions about how the digital realm has changed the way we listen to music, changed the way music is made, changed the role music has in society.

Discussions about whether the digital realm's effects on the music industry are 'good' or 'bad'? Not interesting to me.

>I'm interested in discussions about how the digital realm has
>changed the way we listen to music, changed the way music is
>made, changed the role music has in society.
>
>Discussions about whether the digital realm's effects on the
>music industry are 'good' or 'bad'? Not interesting to me.

"Good" and "bad" are really reductionist terms for something that is a bit more complex.

Any development in life has consequences... Some of these consequences will play out in ways that are ultimately positive; others will be a bit more negative.

I think ignoring this hierarchy of values is... I dunno, I guess I just don't even see the point of discussing anything at all if you don't take that into account.

But hey, if you're not interested in that, you're not interested in it.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>I'm interested in discussions about how the digital realm has
>changed the way we listen to music, changed the way music is
>made, changed the role music has in society.


I had a post about how computers don't *make* music, and that turned into "anybody who makes music on a computer is cheating".


And like everything else, the people chirping were mostly the ones who don't know how the whole thing works.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

I find it absolutely ridiculous to use this word. I didn't even like when people called albums "units" but this is worse. It just seems like a cool buzzword that don't mean shit...

That's what it is. When someone is referring to units of sale, they're speaking in terms of commerce and that is valid in that conversation. When I use content I'm speaking in the context of media and that, too, is valid.

How you feel about referring to your preferred mode of content consumption doesn't really matter. It's still content.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

And I'm fairly certain that "cavedwellers" remark was partially a shot at me too.

I think the whole "content" idea is pretty dangerous too... but even more potentially dangerous is FireBrand's unflagging confidence in the idea that social and technological trends are immune to all critique by virtue of their currency.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

OR Clay Shirky or Greg Kot and their breaking down of those idea of holding onto an out dated system that no longer has any real world value is all the indication needed about what I mean and who I'm talking about.


Why the heck would I make a personal jab at you?

I'm here to discuss an idea. And that idea is the idea they all address as content because even when Kot is writing about it specifically as a music issue or Rosen for Journalism and Shirky for all media interaction they recognized it's linked.

The question is what is value and what can be/how to monetize what is valuable in a digital media age.

In addition to media/content discussion there's also that issue of copyright and intellectual property. We can talk about that too but that's another can of worms.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>OR Clay Shirky or Greg Kot and their breaking down of those
>idea of holding onto an out dated system that no longer has
>any real world value is all the indication needed about what I
>mean and who I'm talking about.

lies in our varying definitions of "outdated" and "real world value."

The root of our disagreement (as I see it) lies in the concept of the formation or perception of "value"... If you believe that a LOLcat is of equal cultural value to A Love Supreme, that's just an idea that I will probably never get on board with.

The problem I see with you and denny is that you emphasize the moral neutrality of "the glacier" without weighing the ideological impact of it.

Social and technological trends are pretty much unstoppable... It's futile crying about it and trying to force the toothpaste back into the tube.

But that doesn't mean that they are completely neutral value-wise. Some trends, some ideas ARE better than others.

So if the dominant idea is that an item of "content" is worth no more than the medium by which it is distributed... I am sorry but I think that is a BAD idea.

And me saying a bad idea is probably not going to stop the advance of that idea, but let me at least have it on record so that when the inevitable negative end result of that bad idea comes to fore, I'll know that I was not a cosigner on that bill.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

But when people base part of their opinion on an artist on how smart they are with their business, it just seems like snobbery more than an opinion with merit, nahmean?

------------------------
"The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures."

Go in peace.
------------------------

I hate saying that, because this is the board where I cut my teeth & I still do get stuff of value in terms of conversation or recommendations.

I also always hated those 'State Of The Lesson' posts.

But anyway, state of The Lesson is that it's mostly lame nowadays (and I recognize I haven't really done that much to remedy it recently either & that there's still lots of posters/post of value).

Bringing doomsday complaints w/ no perspective on today's consumer practices or fresh ideas to help come to a resolution.

FireBrand pretty much said it all but nah...this is rarely boring for me. It's the most dynamic period in the music business currently. Those who are ahead of the game (and changing it) will be talked about in music business classes 20 yrs from now as revolutionaries.

>Bringing doomsday complaints w/ no perspective on today's
>consumer practices or fresh ideas to help come to a
>resolution.
>


Do you offer ideas on how to "fix" other industries? Any ideas on how o solve the NFL Labor issues? How about Network TV's downturn in the face of Cable dominance? The poor craftsmanship of American built automobiles? The demise of print journalism?



Probably not.

But for some reason, everybody and their mother knows EXACTLY how to 'fix' the music business. That's what I'm saying. Music fans have some weird sense of superiority that makes them think that the people behind the scenes are just stubborn and don't know how the world works. Yet the same shit is going on in other fields, and instead of offering up ideas, people just point and blame politicians.

I don't understand why everybody and his mother seems to attack the music business, and ironically, it's one of the few industries that ( on it's purest level) is built to give you some sort of lifelong emotional attachment in return for your money.

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The fans are the backbone of the industry. The Internet and things like blogs/forums give them a voice. If you discount their views and opinions then you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

Feel free to address some of the shit I said, though. If having a logical discussion is something you find interesting.

______________



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Not sure why you are so defensive. It does nothing to promote discussion...it just makes u seem like u know the answers...when no one really does.

I'm with denny and Firebrand. I enjoy talking about new tech, new models, etc and how they impact the industry/consumer practices. Complaining about armchair a&r's is just as pointless as bitching about women issues in GD to me. Do you have a relevant question or more boring hypotheticals?

>Not sure why you are so defensive. It does nothing to promote
>discussion...it just makes u seem like u know the
>answers...when no one really does.

I'm not defensive. I'm just sick of people talking about how "the record industry is dead...it failed to adjust", and then leaving it at THAT. All it is is a grandiose statement that requires no support. Just rhetoric at this point.



>
>I'm with denny and Firebrand. I enjoy talking about new tech,
>new models, etc and how they impact the industry/consumer
>practices.

and what are all these "new models" you're speaking of? you're just throwing around buzzwords.

Complaining about armchair a&r's is just as
>pointless as bitching about women issues in GD to me.

So, I should just sit back and read a bunch of nonsense and misinformation, and then NOT comment on it, just for the entertainemt value of being on a message board? Isn't that the POINT of being on a message board, to voice opinions?

Do you
>have a relevant question or more boring hypotheticals?

you mean like this one:

>The fans are the backbone of the industry. The Internet and
>things like blogs/forums give them a voice. If you discount
>their views and opinions then you are doing yourself a huge
>disservice.


What the HELL is the point of all that? How am I doing myself a disservice? Aside from being good listeners and buyers of music, what can artists expect from fans? What are fans doing with that voice ( aside from the bitching which you, have ironically accused ME of?), Are they demanding different formats? Different devices on which to hear music? Ways that the music could be presented to them that might make them more likely to purchase it?

Or are they just talking about shit how people who make music should give it up and get day jobs if it isn't lucrative enough. Or how they don't pay for music. Or how they don't respect free downloads.

So yeah. Tell me something the "Backbone of the industry" is doing to make things better...aside from the pointless bitching on a message board.

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>and what are all these "new models" you're speaking of? you're
>just throwing around buzzwords.

New models such as the combination of cloud based music and social networking. How that leads to increased music discovery (it's been said peer-to-peer recommendations are more effective than adverts). The reduction of label's role in an increasing direct artist to fan era due to new tools being available at low cost. All these things make up the ever evolving new model. We all know the old model.

>Complaining about armchair a&r's is just as
>>pointless as bitching about women issues in GD to me.
>
>So, I should just sit back and read a bunch of nonsense and
>misinformation, and then NOT comment on it, just for the
>entertainemt value of being on a message board? Isn't that the
>POINT of being on a message board, to voice opinions?

Sure...nothing wrong with that. But your "tone" sometimes comes off as negative...which only adds fuel.

I don't mind this convo except I'm on my iPhone typing this trying to watch the OKC / Griz game. I get into this further when I'm near a computer.

>> But your "tone" sometimes
>comes off as negative...which only adds fuel.

ennh. It's hard to read "tone" on a message board. I mean no malice.


>
>I don't mind this convo except I'm on my iPhone typing this
>trying to watch the OKC / Griz game. I get into this further
>when I'm near a computer.


fair enough. I'm sure this will be a Page 1'er for a couple days.

______________



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since everybody is so down on the "old model", SURELY you can explain to us what this legendary "New Model" is. Everybody keeps talking about it...still haven't seen it.




unless it's just more Lessonspeak.

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>since everybody is so down on the "old model", SURELY you can
>explain to us what this legendary "New Model" is. Everybody
>keeps talking about it...still haven't seen it.

2011, what!

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

I don't think anyone can pinpoint what the new model is yet...if anything it is changing rapidly and somewhat chaotically.

But the 'old model' is very clear. Musicians make recordings.....they market those recordings by touring, making videos, attaining radio play etc....consumers go to record stores and buy those recordings.

That model doesn't work anymore because recordings are WAY too easy to acquire through filesharing without spending money. Seems pretty clear no?

And I agree with what you stated earlier about the record industry 'not adjusting'. People say that alot and it's an unfair critique imo....there was simply no way to adjust. The product (recordings) lost economic value, simple and plain.

They are custom to your situation and your long term/short term goals.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

wouldn't you agree?

>They are custom to your situation and your long term/short
>term goals.


I'm certain it might vary by genre, but at the end of it all, every artist has the same short AND long term goals.

-Get Heard
-Release Music
-Sell Music
-make enough to continue making music, and/or finance NEW music
-develop a loyal fan base ( that keeps you motivated to create new music)


of course the whole "fortune and fame" thing might not be on everybody's "to do" list. ( personally, I'd just be happy making music full time and not having to have a day job. I don't have any deisre to be 'famous'...), but it seems that everybody aspires to the same things, no?

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how you reach all of those. A House DJ is not going to be able to employ the same strains of contact and community that a Jungle or Dubstep DJ is. They might be able to use the same modes but how and why each will work better depends on both genre and that artist's specific fanbase.

Will you be able to crowd source your project like a Rock act? Where your fans come up with the names of songs, concepts etc on tumblr and twitter, and then fund it for you on topspin and promote it for you using your bandcamp links? Probably not, although that specific situation HAS been done before.

Or maybe you can.

You have to tailor fit your solutions to your situation.

And you have to abandon the idea of release/white label, release/white label because that was what worked in a different era and your music deserves to be heard and FUNDED in a new era.

Che Grand's idea of performing in living rooms across the country doing a house-to-house tour. That's so punk rock, but it's so on point. That's viral both net and physically.

That's fanbase building/nurturing. And that's something that he felt could work with his situation.

What can work in yours? Record store surfing? Giving away an EP but fans need to pay 8 bucks to see you stop by, another 5 to see you spin there at night and people who came just for the spinning at night pay 10?

Maybe they don't pay anything. Maybe you get the store to pay you and you sell your wares at a discount.

Or maybe you don't sell them. you give them 2 songs, and swag that will promote you like a qr code embedded bumpersticker and a tshirt

It's up to YOU.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>how you reach all of those. A House DJ is not going to be
>able to employ the same strains of contact and community that
>a Jungle or Dubstep DJ is. They might be able to use the
>same modes but how and why each will work better depends on
>both genre and that artist's specific fanbase.

I know that. That's how I prefaced my reply.



>
>Will you be able to crowd source your project like a Rock act?
> Where your fans come up with the names of songs, concepts etc
>on tumblr and twitter, and then fund it for you on topspin and
>promote it for you using your bandcamp links? Probably not,
>although that specific situation HAS been done before.
>
>Or maybe you can.
>
>You have to tailor fit your solutions to your situation.
>
>And you have to abandon the idea of release/white label,
>release/white label because that was what worked in a
>different era and your music deserves to be heard and FUNDED
>in a new era.
>

I know that too. But how can we get funded if fans stick to this "new model" of "music being free"?


>Che Grand's idea of performing in living rooms across the
>country doing a house-to-house tour. That's so punk rock, but
>it's so on point. That's viral both net and physically.
>
>That's fanbase building/nurturing. And that's something that
>he felt could work with his situation.

ok. But again, if we're talking about the business side of it, how feasible is that, and that mode of operation can't be applied to everybody ( and to be fair, we're talking about models that may be used across the board, to SOME degree, correct?)


>
>What can work in yours? Record store surfing? Giving away
>an EP but fans need to pay 8 bucks to see you stop by,
>another 5 to see you spin there at night and people who came
>just for the spinning at night pay 10?

well, personally, as a DJ, I don't feel like people don't "owe" me much other than coming out to boogie down when I play clubs. I don't try to sell mixes. I think that's unfair to listeners. ( and I chose 'listeners', because I think it's a bit pretentious for me as a DJ to think I have "fans"...)




>
>Maybe they don't pay anything. Maybe you get the store to pay
>you and you sell your wares at a discount.

nah, it doesn't really work like that.


>
>Or maybe you don't sell them. you give them 2 songs, and swag
>that will promote you like a qr code embedded bumpersticker
>and a tshirt
>
>It's up to YOU.


agreed.

and for the record, I'm not trying to push buttons. I'm just in here exchanging thoughts...

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the old models and it's kind of thought nearly completely.

Rethink from the ground up who likes your music and what that means in terms of opportunities to raising funding for you to continue making/sharing (selecting, djing, curating) music.

That's where the answers will be.

The old model is done for most people. For some with a loyal fanbase or a LARGE fanbase there are still enough pennies on the dollar to make it count for whatever their particular budget needs are.

For most people that's just not going to get it done.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

i gotta admit you present some nice and/or compelling alternatives.

are you using these powers for good or are you wasting them on us lowly Lessonheads?

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

and what works and if one cat can do it, so can another. I want to see everyone succeed.

We can't complain about cash and then not have songs registered to monitor spins digital, radio, club and more.

There are folks utilizing the tools are their fingertips and getting it in--they could be slipping in other areas but they might have ONE aspect taken care of like touring or marketing or new revenue streams, monetizing existing streams and capitalizing them.

It's options out there.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

delete

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

"number of digital downloads" is part of the new model.

____________________________________________________________________

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Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

It can't stop there. After you're able to do that, you've got to have a strategy to drive and then monetize that traffic. It won't matter that you had 10k downloads if you aren't touring behind that and allowing that 10k to see your face or to find a method to get a check from sponsorship, right?


It's possible to get even more creative. A few lines of code, SHARED, even and some thought?

Look at what Travis Porter's people did last year that ended with them going from a social media buzz group with potential club and radio songs to landing on the Billboard charts without a record deal:

http://vaynermedia.com/2010/05/releasing-travis-porters-mixtape-proud-to-be-a-problem/


Last night Travis Porter, arguably the hottest unsigned rap group in America the world, released their highly anticipated mixtape Proud to be a Problem.

A few weeks beforehand, they got us involved to help them craft a release that innovatively leveraged social media.

This was probably the most fun project I�ve done so far, and I wanted to share a little about what made the process so enjoyable, exciting, and unique.

1. Discovery
Travis Porter�s manager, CEO Charlie, had an existing dialogue with our own hardworking hip-hop blogger @mikeboydjr who writes Hip Hop at Lunch. Boyd introduced him to Gary and AJ and subsequently to me.

When we spoke on the phone, the opportunity was obvious. Their last independently released mixtape had propelled them to a national and overseas tour, a couple videos on MTV, and a song on the billboard rap charts. They were releasing a follow-up, 17 song mixtape and a short film (1/2 hour) on May 18th.

Their last social media campaign had been in February, a �tweet to watch� campaign for their music video for �Get Naked� and they wanted to innovate on that. From 6-8pm, they were going to take over the livemixtapes.com site, redirecting all visitors to a custom social landing page.

Travis Porter had an avid and rapidly growing fan base, which gave us a captive audience. They were unsigned, which gave us creative license. They were innovators in a space (Hip Hop music) that was seeing huge social effectiveness with rudimentary implementations, which gave us an exciting and potentially rewarding challenge.

Charlie and I hung up after about two hours and my mind was buzzing with the opportunities that this unlikely collaboration could yield.

2. Concept
CEO Charlie called me on a Friday, and the next day Boyd and I came in to the office to brainstorm. The tight timeframe of the release helped simplify and focus our vision, and we came up with the concept over a Saluggi�s pizza and a couple leftover Newcastle Brown Ales in under an hour.

The concept was:
1. Allow people to unlock through twitter (tweet link + follow travis porter) or facebook (post link + give email address)
2. Have a video section that will play either the movie or Travis Porter live ustreaming
3. Allow the audience to interact with Travis Porter directly through twitter and facebook on the page. Each interaction propagates through their network and extends the viral loop.

Simple, right? I put up a living prototype that day (you can still see it here: http://graphpaper.vaynermedia.com/travisporter) and it was game time.

3. Execution
From concept to execution was only about 20 hours between two people. I handled all the back-end work and social media integration, and our newest team member @shaunchapman (of 0 to 255 pseudo-fame) handled the front-end UI.

More impressively, we could do it in half the time if we did it again and a quarter of the time if we had control of the servers for testing production code.

Take a look at the final result:

Travis Porter: �Proud to be a Problem� social landing page

The best part is that 3/4 of the elements on the page are plug-and-play components offered by ustream, twitter, and facebook. From a user experience standpoint, 75% of the page was done in under an hour.

The development time was all spent on writing a custom OAuth implementation for Twitter, integrating Facebook�s new open graph api, collaborating with livemixtapes.com to ensure the correct user flow from authentication to unlocking the mixtape, and skinning the page according to the specifications of Travis Porter�s graphic designer, Colourful Money.

Of course that�s just the tip of the proverbial iceberg; if you�re interested in technical details feel free to ask how we did anything in the comments and I�ll respond with an explanation and code sample.

4. Results
- 42,000+ unique visitors in 2 hours. 239 combined days spent on the landing page by all visitors.
- #3 trending topic on all of Twitter.
- #11 most searched term on Google.
- 7,000+ tweets and follows.
- 15,000+ clicks on the official bit.ly link from the generated tweet (stats: http://bit.ly/proudtobeaproblem+)
- 4,500+ likes on the Open Graph enabled album (and de facto Fan Page) for the album Proud to be a Problem.



5. Conclusions
The launch was a success. It was fresh and exciting for everybody involved � us, Travis Porter, Live Mixtapes, and the fans.

This Travis Porter/VaynerMedia collaboration is my absolute favorite type of working relationship, and the effectiveness of a good working relationship can be seen in the results.

They are on top of their game, and we are on top of ours. They don�t need more than what we can provide because they already have the talent. They�re not going to restrict us to less than what we can provide, because they don�t have a legal department.

Travis Porter just told us their story and goals, and we listened. Then they stepped aside and gave us the freedom to select the right tools from our vast social media toolbox to accomplish those goals.

But enough about us. The most important takeaway is that it is downright scary what Travis Porter and other up-and-coming artists can do with minimal effort by leveraging social media.

The power is truly shifting from labels and other corporately tainted entities to the artists themselves, and touching that yesterday was exhilarating.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black�at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

Speaking from a Rap perspective, in the Old Model you:

~"Pay Dues" (battle circuit, open mics, etc)
~Record a Demo
~Shop for a Record Deal
~Get a Deal
~Get a Budget
~Record your Album
~Fight with A&Rs over what you can and can't get on the album
~Fight over single choices/video choices
~Label finally OK's the joint and promotes it
~Album comes out and does what it does
~Artist tours and shit
~Rinse and repeat for every album

If shit goes wrong? You can invoke Industry Rule #4080. Album doesn't sell? Blame the label. Money not right? Blame the label. The label was/is a safety net/middle man between the artists and the fans.

In the "New Model" you can skip whatever steps you feel you don't need, including getting a record deal...shit, Drake was gettin nominated for awards off of mixtape songs. Wiz Khalifa was buzzin hard before I even knew who he was signed with. Like Firebrand was sayin, Travis Porter's music is spreading virally thru Youtube.

Now, you can go around the middle man and hit the streets directly. You don't even hafta get samples cleared if you don't want to, you can make the shit a "mixtape" and put that shit right out...albums aint makin money like that anyways, fuck it, you can get that money back touring off that music. You can put whatever videos you want right out on YouTube/Worldstar/OnSmash/2Dopeboyz/etc. and get thousands/millions of views. If you wanna sell some music, you can get that shit put on iTunes/Amazon...most music buyers don't buy physical copies of shit anymore anyways, why bother even tryna get a distribution deal?

Now, the only person you can really blame for not being where you wanna be in the game is yourself.

"You post like you look your barber in the eyes when he lines you up."

http://twitter.com/semiautomatic_C
PSN ID: killacontact_71

My MAIN beef with these discussions?

Buzzwords, Buzzwords, Buzzwords and sideline commentary.


There's WAAAAAAY too much jargon thrown around, and in some cases it's plain as day that some of the people posting have NO idea what they're talking about.

Fans have started throwing around industry terms with reckless abandon, and in MOST cases they're concerning themselves with details that we as fans don't need to be bothered with:

"old business model", "Marketing", "Updated Paradigm" - Why the FUCK should I care how Sony is planning to present me with music? All I should know is that the new "Artist A" album drops on the 23rd

"Numbers"- Again. So WHAT if "Artist A" sells a million copies? How does that make his music good or how does that make him comparable to Artist B?

"Units", "Branding", "Imaging", "Product" etc. - It reeks of some kid fresh outta Advertising 281 just trying to make himself look smarter in a music discussion. There's NOTHING more annoying than hearing somebody say that Artist A has new 'product' out.

Also, some of us here HAVE actually taken the steps of starting up labels, and putting out commercial releases. This doesn't make us smarter or any more talented than anybody else. But it's kinda stubborn for people to shout us down as if we have NO idea how this shit works. Even if we're wrong ( and apparently we are, because we're not driving Ferraris *looks at camera*), we're coming from a place of experience. And as one of my old football coaches used to say: "You can't teach experience". All that shit about updated business models, and alternative revenue streams goes out the window if you haven't invested YOUR time and money into it, and then dealt with the shit that goes along with releasing music. It's Armchair A&R'ing, plain and simple.

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I haven't made it on here in a while but when I do come back there's not much that has changed for me. I'm so bored of seeing posts about OFWGKTA (or whatever the flavor of this month is) chewing the fat on why they matter, why they're culturally relevant, why YOU don't get it, ETC, ETC, ETC. I always felt that if the fans of somebody have to pump that artist's buying temperature up by toting how important they are from a music business point of view (rather than a WOW this is great music! point of view) then they probably aren't actually worth a dime and that fan is just falling victim to good marketing. It's just more of the same from this place though. I remember when people were posting about Dipset and all sorts of other groups and talking about everything BUT their music (how they were super-important to the genre or a movemen or whatever). To me reverse justifying why an artist that's getting publicity is of value without talking about how great a song or album they made is just makes you an armchair A&R and an industry pawn. This forum should be about the music and how good it is not the music industry politricks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I feel safe in white because, deep down inside, I'm an angel." - P. Diddy

they're always "textbook-ish," and from the sidelines. no one really in the trenches ever speaks on the biz. no one ever wants to flash their credentials.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

>they're always "textbook-ish," and from the sidelines.

well the loudest ones are on the sidelines.

no
>one really in the trenches ever speaks on the biz.

Not true. We've had established cats come in and drop science. But for some reason, people STILL don't respect their opinions. Cats from Nicolay, to PPP to other signed artists have been in on these posts.


no one
>ever wants to flash their credentials.

if by "Credentials", you mean "how much loot they're raking in", then of course not. Also, a lot of people here are in, or have been in the business on different levels, from artists, to producers, to A&R's to publicists, to Legal representatives. so there's a fair representation of heads on all fronts here. What do you mean by credentials?

______________



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>if by "Credentials", you mean "how much loot they're raking
>in", then of course not. Also, a lot of people here are in, or
>have been in the business on different levels, from artists,
>to producers, to A&R's to publicists, to Legal
>representatives. so there's a fair representation of heads on
>all fronts here. What do you mean by credentials?
>
>
>

not by how much you make, but what you do, who you've worked with, where you've worked, major or indie?

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

>they're always "textbook-ish," and from the sidelines. no
>one really in the trenches ever speaks on the biz. no one
>ever wants to flash their credentials.

I don't hear much 'textbook' stuff here. And most of these developments are so new....that there isn't really an 'established textbook' way of thinking about things right now anyways.

And AFKAP made a post relating to posting credentials awhile ago that I agreed with. If someone's curious about someone else's job/experience than they can inbox. But flashing credentials on an anonymous music board ruins the whole thing and in certain contexts....would only serve to distract a debate. The content of the posts should be enough.

>>they're always "textbook-ish," and from the sidelines. no
>>one really in the trenches ever speaks on the biz. no one
>>ever wants to flash their credentials.
>
>I don't hear much 'textbook' stuff here. And most of these
>developments are so new....that there isn't really an
>'established textbook' way of thinking about things right now
>anyways.
>

i should've clarified my "textbook" description. from what i see on the lesson there's a lot of folks that talk about the industry like they've read their info out of textbooks...not really drawing from experience.

and as far as credentials...i liken it to talking about sports. you can know all there is to know about sports but no one pays attention to you at the sports bar. the crowd pays more attention to those that used to play college ball or had a short stint in the pros and their opinions on sports are always right...cuz they used to play college ball.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

Experience in the record industry does not equal profound insight into the future of music. hohoho.

>Experience in the record industry does not equal profound
>insight into the future of music. hohoho.

let alone a fan who doesn't buy music.

hohoho, indeed.

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Cause if you are....I'm here.

I know alot more about you than you know about me. And I'll surely flash creds to shut you up. hohoho.

>Cause if you are....I'm here.

I'm having a music discussion. Point-counterpoint, like it's supposed to go.


>
>I know alot more about you than you know about me. And I'll
>surely flash creds to shut you up. hohoho.


But If you wanna make threats, that's a whole 'nother thing. Now we can be civil, or we can just agree to disagree and steer clear of each other. I'm simply responding to the posts in a music thread. If you're takin' shit personal and gettin' all bent outta shape, then maybe you should re-read. I'm not doing anything differently that you and I haven't done before in any OTHER thread where we disagree.
I don't know where all the e-thuggin' is coming from.

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I genuinely thought you were calling me the 'fan' in your comment.

>and as far as credentials...i liken it to talking about
>sports. you can know all there is to know about sports but no
>one pays attention to you at the sports bar. the crowd pays
>more attention to those that used to play college ball or had
>a short stint in the pros and their opinions on sports are
>always right...cuz they used to play college ball.


exactly. Which is why they have Ex-Players next to the journalists during the broadcast.

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What gets me is the whole battle between four different types:

(1)people who do or use to work in the music industry,

(2)artists who been in the industry who have been turned off by the politics & business side of the industry,

(3)up & coming artists who have bright hopes about the industry cause they want to be up in it even if there is plenty of negative sides to it,

and (4)the listeners who only care about listening & finding new/old music to hear, think the industry is killing music but they also could care less about the artists need to profit from creating music.

It's like a neverending battle between these four types of people in any & our conversations that basically goes nowhere but in a circle with facts, false rumors, & personal beliefs; with no goal of improving it in the real world.

Yes it's tons of lurkers who do read these long discussions and sometimes I feel like somebody backs away from the computer and comes away with some enlightenment but overall the one who are doing the posting/replying it goes in one ear & out the other.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

I remember a time i used to get put onto so much music. but then this was before music blogs like moovmnt and mint collective existed. Times have changed i guess and the age of the recommendation script( pandora etc.) has changed the game.

--------
<--------- my cousin
www.richardlouissaint.com
photobloggin' it:
http://blog.richardlouissaint.com

Any day now music is going to secede from the industry </hopeful>

In all seriousness though, as guilty as I can be when there isn't a wealth of discussion about actual music, discussing the industry is ho hum. Same goes for academia which is what I was pointing out in a recent post. If you can't talk about the actual music, who gives a fuck about your other thoughts on the matter.

But then again these discussions don't even pose themselves to be about music any more. It's about the media, and in that regard I'm in the AFKAP camp of things. When the media takes precedent over the music.... But of course we are living in the age of "The medium is the massage" so that's to be expected.

I've been throwing around quotes from this piece -http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/6445/ a lot of late and might as well throw two quotes out there:

"To me, if music can�t be shared, I�m not interested in it. However, once I digitize these objects and they enter into the file sharing ecosystem, they become alive for me again."

"As a matter of fact, records that I�ve been craving for years (such as the complete recordings of Jean Cocteau, which we just posted on Ubu) are languishing unlistened-to. I�ll never get to them either, because I�m more interested in the hunt than I am in the prey. The minute I get something, I just crave more. And so something has really changed � and I think this is the real epiphany: the ways in which culture is distributed have become profoundly more intriguing than the cultural artifact itself. What we�ve experienced is an inversion of consumption, one in which we�ve come to prefer the acts of acquisition over that which we are acquiring, the bottles over the wine."

This is from the founder of the Ubu web a site that's supposed to be all about the music.

IMO we've outgrown the 'industry'. Artists, listeners and fans. All have out grown them. BUt the industry itself will not let go. It's fighting for its relevance. It comes down on the actual music in order to validate the importance of its role in bringing said music to you. It hypes up its achievements, teaches us its buzz words, and keeps us discussing its problems as if they are our own. THIS keeps the industry alive, and it has taught us that it being alive is synonymous with music being alive. That is categorically false. Music can live without the industry, but the industry without the music is just pr and advertising. Oh wait that's what it is now.

So the question is, what do you want to discuss, pr and advertising, or music.

#musiccivilwar

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
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RIPL - http://bit.ly/e5wzxn
Read me write - http://themoshi.tumblr.com/

Particularly for the more avid performers/listeners/collectors, I think "industry" considerations are something we take into account when looking at the state of music.

I think many of the discussions get bogged down by agendas, and that can get frustrating.

But I think those posts are always worth checking out, since they raise larger cultural questions that I don't think people spend enough time reflecting on.

Not to mention passion and engagement. I find it sad that I don't see that in the music-discussions much anymore.

I am on OKP primarily as a reader and I remember when I came on here, there were REALLY heated and interesting discussion about *directly* music-related issues and not artist A>>>B stuff either-just check the archives from 2004-2005 if you don't believe me. It seems like the industry stuff has replaced the music in terms of indepth discussions; shit, the discussions in this very thrad is proof of that. *I* find that boring...

>I am on OKP primarily as a reader and I remember when I came
>on here, there were REALLY heated and interesting discussion
>about *directly* music-related issues and not artist A>>>B
>stuff either-just check the archives from 2004-2005 if you
>don't believe me.

To me, the Lesson's golden age was before the explosion of blogs and social networking and Quest becoming a media celebrity in his own right.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s, there did not seem to be a lot of places online where you could have substantial music discussion about black music. During that era, people were still buying CDs too, so you had the bonus of everyone vibing off the latest new release.

Now, people hear music at least a couple of weeks before it's for sale. That excitement and anticipation is just gone.

I believe that somewhere along the line, a lot of those golden age posters moved on and were replaced by people who were either set in their musical tastes, didn't have the communication/reasoning/attention skills to have serious discussion, or were more intrigued with the technological/marketing side of music since that seemed to be where the true excitement was.

>
>>I am on OKP primarily as a reader and I remember when I came
>>on here, there were REALLY heated and interesting discussion
>>about *directly* music-related issues and not artist A>>>B
>>stuff either-just check the archives from 2004-2005 if you
>>don't believe me.
>
>To me, the Lesson's golden age was before the explosion of
>blogs and social networking and Quest becoming a media
>celebrity in his own right.
>
>Back in the 90s and early 2000s, there did not seem to be a
>lot of places online where you could have substantial music
>discussion about black music. During that era, people were
>still buying CDs too, so you had the bonus of everyone vibing
>off the latest new release.
>
>Now, people hear music at least a couple of weeks before it's
>for sale. That excitement and anticipation is just gone.

I dunno about anticipation being 'gone'...I'd say everyone is in their own niche bubble. Nothing culminates to one day like it used to...it varies from fan to fan, genre, news/blog source, etc.

Yeah, industry discussions (read: arguments) are boring and cyclical. But they go platinum because people have strong opinions on the subject, and a lot of those opinions - even diametrically opposed ones - are fairly well-informed. It makes every post on the subject a spark that ignites a fire, even though it's a fire we've all seen a thousand times before and will always stay in the same place until it burns itself out. Personally I have stayed out of most threads that even smack of "Downloading - good or bad?" I've had that argument and I was tired of it a long time ago. Everybody's heard all the positions and at this late date no one is changing sides. I did throw up that one huge-ass thread of mine because I couldn't decide why I felt the way I did and I thought it was interesting as a reflection of where we used to be vs. where we are headed. That was far from a taking-a-stand kind of post, even though a lot of people responded like it was.

As for why music threads go "double wood" (heh heh) so much, it's because most of us in here are uneducated motherfuckers when it comes to music. Since the dawn of The Lesson so much music discussion boils down to the camp that says it's good and the camp that says it's bad. There are a thousand synonyms for each side to deploy at will, but almost nobody is coming in with a detailed argument for their position - just another variation on "it's good" or "it's bad." Even the music posts around here that DO go platinum are just for new releases from favorite artists where everybody wants to weigh in, but even then all 150 posts are saying the same one thing or the other. So if you click on a new thread about an old Rick James album, you will see five responses that already covered the "it's good" camp, maybe one from the "it's bad" camp, and there's really nothing more to say - unless you just feel like being social.

I know that sounded grouchy, but I didn't mean for it to be. A lot of music is just felt rather than defined mechanically, which makes it hard to talk about at length. We are far from a bunch of Lester Bangses. We have our moments though.

--

>Yeah, industry discussions (read: arguments) are boring and
>cyclical. But they go platinum because people have strong
>opinions on the subject, and a lot of those opinions - even
>diametrically opposed ones - are fairly well-informed. It
>makes every post on the subject a spark that ignites a fire,
>even though it's a fire we've all seen a thousand times before
>and will always stay in the same place until it burns itself
>out. Personally I have stayed out of most threads that even
>smack of "Downloading - good or bad?" I've had that argument
>and I was tired of it a long time ago. Everybody's heard all
>the positions and at this late date no one is changing sides.
>I did throw up that one huge-ass thread of mine because I
>couldn't decide why I felt the way I did and I thought it was
>interesting as a reflection of where we used to be vs. where
>we are headed. That was far from a taking-a-stand kind of
>post, even though a lot of people responded like it was.
>
>As for why music threads go "double wood" (heh heh) so much,
>it's because most of us in here are uneducated motherfuckers
>when it comes to music. Since the dawn of The Lesson so much
>music discussion boils down to the camp that says it's good
>and the camp that says it's bad. There are a thousand
>synonyms for each side to deploy at will, but almost nobody is
>coming in with a detailed argument for their position - just
>another variation on "it's good" or "it's bad." Even the
>music posts around here that DO go platinum are just for new
>releases from favorite artists where everybody wants to weigh
>in, but even then all 150 posts are saying the same one thing
>or the other. So if you click on a new thread about an old
>Rick James album, you will see five responses that already
>covered the "it's good" camp, maybe one from the "it's bad"
>camp, and there's really nothing more to say - unless you just
>feel like being social.
>
>I know that sounded grouchy, but I didn't mean for it to be.
>A lot of music is just felt rather than defined mechanically,
>which makes it hard to talk about at length. We are far from
>a bunch of Lester Bangses. We have our moments though.


________
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sad but true