http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgjLEN__Pag&feature=feedlik

If this has already been posted, let me know.

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www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

I dont have time to sit through an advertisement and then an 8-minute video.

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That's why I posted the vid, but in a nutshell he was debating with some other folks about hip hops place in history as well as the future.

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www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

It's interesting, though... I've long thought that many hip-hop artists felt this, either consciously or subconsciously.

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position. I just think that The artists and the fans(that includes DJs who play the shit they like) can change this reality.

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www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

it's like the people Joe is debating with are proving his point for him with their responses.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

╭∩╮（︶︿︶）╭∩╮





www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

Thanks for making me watch this, Ab.

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this is the answer to question you asked in my post lol

nice vid

PEACE LOVE and MONEY

https://soundcloud.com/dabeatnik/drumpf-beer

.

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www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

..i agree that they prove joe's point...i think many hiphop fans are much like pop fans, and that's not a good thing....of course i don't like all inclusive statements, so i can't say "all" hiphop fans are like this, cause, they aren't....

...people trip me out though thinking if popular hiphop artist x had a tour out with no recent album hot on the radio/charts, most people would flock to see it....

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

wow just gained alot of respect for joe budden. i believe hes completely right with his points

---------------------------------------
NotTheYogurt.com
twitter= @therealDanimal
music= danimal.bandcamp.com

Like, when he talks about hip-hop "compared to other genres"... pop fans are very bit as fickle and short-memoried as hip-hop fans (probably even more so)

and when he talks about "rock," that's a very broad category... there are entire sub-genres of rock that have never been serviced by a Lite FM-type station and whose artists will never our 10 years off of their hits.

And frankly, if you really wanted to make a hip-hop Lite FM, you could... All those 1990s G-funk and Bad Boy hits... "Gangsta's Paradise" etc? It could be done, but nobody's taken a chance on it yet... maybe the time isn't yet right.

But other than that, I get the point he's trying to make and I feel him.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

And whether I'm white or not, I see the stratification in that. We've created this boundaries socially. "Oh, rock fans love their music!" Man, rock fans are still buying Phil Collins and Michael Jackson CDs from 20 years ago. They don't love their music, they love the musicians they loved as kids.

And I think, as much as I love hip-hop at age 22, almost 23...I can see where a 35 year old might not say "damn, I'm gonna check out the Ice Cube concert". I can see why they would, but I can see why they wouldn't. I often worry if it will be hard for me to relate to a such and such record in 10 years.

For listeners that don't give a fuck about musical culture and progression and legacy, listeners that simply like what they like...I see this is perfectly normal. Especially in today's industry. You're going to move on when you want to, whether that be from artist to artist or genre to genre. Artists just have to trek until they can't no more, fuck an outside opinion.

No, I don't like that mentality. It just seems to be what it is.


~~~~~~~~~
I don't check my inbox.

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517

was much more realistic

It seems like joe is more or less taking jabs at new artist and listeners
vs hip from the start til now. Hip Hop has always prided itself on
being the voice of the youth by the youth. That hasn't changed in 30 years.

It's always been about "what's hot NOW".

*
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*

why is it that young kids today can pick up a Beatles record and feel that it's speaking to them NOW, but any hip-hop that's two years old is concerned dated?

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Doesn't hip hop make a point to call artists old... even at 30? e.g. Jay Z

I've never really got that from rock. Maybe it's a cultural thing. I
didn't want to listen to my parents music growing up. I didn't listen
to Marvin Gaye until my 20's. I was there when Hip Hop began, so it's
sentimental to me. But my son doesn't feel the same way. I played
Rakim for him one day, and he honestly didn't give a shit. The only
artists before 1995 he knows is Pac and Biggie... and he'll recognize
a few classic songs here and there. If he becomes an enthusiast one day,
then he'll do his homework, but how many will actually become enthusiast?

And let's not get on the redundant subject matter of popular hip hop... rims,
jewelry, hoes, and cloths. these things don't age well either.

*
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*

>Doesn't hip hop make a point to call artists old... even at
>30? e.g. Jay Z

>And let's not get on the redundant subject matter of popular
>hip hop... rims,
>jewelry, hoes, and cloths. these things don't age well either.
>
>

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

ownwership as an artist.

If I'm a 16y/o, and I had to listen to bullshit fashion
and cars in every other song, I'd much rather listen to what's fashionable
now vs. 20 years ago, or even 2 years ago. Sure Slick Rick could rap, and
he made good songs, but was he really that much better than what's on
the radio now? I say no. It seems like we want to reward mediocrity. How many Beatles do we really have in Hip Hop?

*
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*

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

I got no words.

It's like he's trying to give Joey more evidence here.

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MY point


do you feel the average radio hip hop hit song is savvy? I don't.

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and caring only about the shallow flash of the "new" rather than investing in substance.

I'd say calling Slick Rick mediocre is about as textbook an example of that mentality as you'd ever find.

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I don't expect the kids now to be any different... you have those
who appreciate the art and those who don't.

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*

>
>I don't expect the kids now to be any different... you have
>those
>who appreciate the art and those who don't.

He's saying most of the fans of hip-hop don't appreciate the art... to them, it's some shallow fashion shit that is meant to be enjoyed today and forgotten tomorrow.

And I'm sorry: Slick Rick IS miles better than Wiz Khalifa... on an OBJECTIVE level.

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to them, it's some shallow fashion shit that is meant
>to be enjoyed today and forgotten tomorrow.
>

Why are we trying to pretend most Hip Hop isn't this?

>And I'm sorry: Slick Rick IS miles better than Wiz Khalifa...
>on an OBJECTIVE level.

That shit ain't objective.

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*

> to them, it's some shallow fashion shit that is meant
>>to be enjoyed today and forgotten tomorrow.
>>
>
>Why are we trying to pretend most Hip Hop isn't this?

The same could be said of ANY kind of music, though. We keep talking about the Beatles and they made some damn fine music, but it's not like their shit was otherworldly.

Besides, let's sep away from the Fab Four. Here's a couple of examples of some rock classics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGuPc01Dn7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtJoGdujYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvyDWGF290M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vae_AkLb4Q

Are these songs any more "substantive" than most hip-hop? I'd say no.

Still, the rock audience is respectful enough of their genre and their artists and are "savvy" enough that they have kept these records alive to the point that the artists can still tour behind them 40 years later.

>>And I'm sorry: Slick Rick IS miles better than Wiz
>Khalifa...
>>on an OBJECTIVE level.
>
>That shit ain't objective.

If you know your history and understand what hip-hop sounded like BEFORE Slick Rick and what it sounded like AFTER him, you will know that he had a tremendous impact on the genre that Wiz has not... and he built the city that WIz lives in.

But hey... you'd have to be "savvy" to dig that, huh?

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Black and yellow, I don't know any of his music



>> to them, it's some shallow fashion shit that is meant
>>>to be enjoyed today and forgotten tomorrow.
>>>
>>
>>Why are we trying to pretend most Hip Hop isn't this?
>
>The same could be said of ANY kind of music, though. We keep
>talking about the Beatles and they made some damn fine music,
>but it's not like their shit was otherworldly.

But who would you say is the Hip Hop version of The Beatles?


>Besides, let's sep away from the Fab Four. Here's a couple of
>examples of some rock classics:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGuPc01Dn7c
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtJoGdujYo
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvyDWGF290M
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vae_AkLb4Q
>
>Are these songs any more "substantive" than most hip-hop? I'd
>say no.
>
>Still, the rock audience is respectful enough of their genre
>and their artists and are "savvy" enough that they have kept
>these records alive to the point that the artists can still
>tour behind them 40 years later.

But there are songs that have survived... you throw on Slick Rick's
Children's Story, or some Doug E Fresh, young heads know those songs.
Now will they go see Slick or Doug in concert? prolly not.

>>>And I'm sorry: Slick Rick IS miles better than Wiz
>>Khalifa...
>>>on an OBJECTIVE level.
>>
>>That shit ain't objective.


But that's to you and me, not a 15 y/o today. Wiz is HIS music, Slick
is OUR music. That was the point i was trying to make earlier--> I didn't wanna listen to my parents music.


>If you know your history and understand what hip-hop sounded
>like BEFORE Slick Rick and what it sounded like AFTER him, you
>will know that he had a tremendous impact on the genre that
>Wiz has not... and he built the city that WIz lives in.
>
>But hey... you'd have to be "savvy" to dig that, huh?

Fam, I understand Slick, but let's look at it from this perspective. You lecturing a 15 y/o on Slick was like somebody lecturing you on The
Temptations. La di da di was 25 years ago fam. Some of the Hip Hop you and
I cherish just won't make the cut of worthiness at some point. Slick
may make it, Run DMC will make it, so will Rakim and PE. But Kool G Rap prolly
won't. Kid n Play, nope. I could go on and on. This history lesson
in Hip Hop is littered with subjectivity, because we really can't
say objectively who should get legendary status. Hip Hop is very regional,
as an art, it's its own worse enemy, and it has always been a young man's
sport. I really just don't like to hear an artist call the fanbase
unsavvy, even if it's true... he's basically giving the listeners
his ass to kiss and at the same time not acknowledging how unsavvy
the music has become and has been for that matter.

BTW, I don't think Slick is mediocre... but alot of old school hip hop
is imo

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*
*

>That was the point i was trying to make
>earlier--> I didn't wanna listen to my parents music.

terrible point.

>You lecturing a 15 y/o on Slick was like somebody
>lecturing you on The
>Temptations.

*moves to ban you from posting*

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music

>>That was the point i was trying to make
>>earlier--> I didn't wanna listen to my parents music.
>
>terrible point.
>
>>You lecturing a 15 y/o on Slick was like somebody
>>lecturing you on The
>>Temptations.
>
>*moves to ban you from posting*

lol i'm sure no one would object either

*
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*

I really cannot relate to what kyzer is saying because I grew up loving the shit out of Motown, Stax, The Beatles, Elvis and James Brown.

I don't know how old kyzersozey is, but I know me and MONOTONE are from the generation that first embraced the sampling of our parents' record collections to make hip-hop tracks because we felt the music that OUR generation was making was weak.

As for the Slick Rick thing: I maintain that Slick is better than Wiz... on an objective level.

Are kids more likely to wanna listen to Wiz than Rick? Do they perhaps "connect" better with Wiz? Sure... but that doesn't make him better.

And I'm not saying that on some old geezer "our good old days were gooder than yours" shit either. Slick Rick is just a better MC who has had made music that has endured longer than Wiz's is likely to--even amongst his own fan base.

But everything kyzer is saying just continues to add fuel to Joey's fire and confirm that hip-hop listeners are probably a bit shallower and more fickle than fans of many other genres.

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At 15?

Probably not.

I don't even understand the argument because hip hop loves the past, its artists routinely sample past music. The genre itself is an homage to past artists.

I get into this conversation alot & I'm an old head. At the of the day the young like what they like and I don't see much of a difference with that from when I was 14 in 84' (yeah I'm that old) and now.

A lot of the songs that were hip hop hits backintheday, got heavy rotation on BLS and Kiss rarely ever plays now. When is the last time you played UTFO's "Fairytale Lover", Mantronix "Scream", Boogie Boys "Fly Gir", I'll even go as far as saying Whodini's "One Love", Fat Boys, Juice Crew allstars...this list goes on & on & on.
Doesn't mean those songs don't have their place in. My favorite emcee will always be Rakim but I can sit here and clearly remember how I felt during Tamirah's birthday party @ Skate Key when the Dj put on Inspectah Gadget & we went off.

I don't get why anybody expects the kids today to sweat Slick over Wiz. If that happens cool but to be shocked or angry that it doesn't is just silly to me. This is a new time & new day that was the past. Unlike some mental security & sense of self isn't soley dependant on holding up dead relics from the past because we can't create anything new.

Is Slick Rick a better emcee than many today...imo yeah. But so what? He was better than most in his time too but we still liked other people. Hip hop music is also about an experience beyond just listening to a song & analyzing the emcees' wordplay. I feel like everybody's forgotten Move the Crowd & the point Rakim was making. The experiece matters. The whole point of this thing is for these people to present themselves & connect with a crowd that's connected on a another level & within that experience, collectively, we all get open for a minute & enjoy our lives. The end. Only time will tell which songs will endure or not. But I think its only natural that the kids prefer their emcees speaking their language in their tone now. Doesn't mean they can't appreciate the past but getting them to o that is partially the responsibility of the old heads and talking shit to them about what they like today - when has that ever worked?

so no... I was not crazy about the idea of going to his concert.

But I DID buy old James Brown records. And around the time I was 15, he dropped a ne record with Full Force and I bought that too!

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Sure Slick Rick
>could rap, and
>he made good songs, but was he really that much better than
>what's on
>the radio now? I say no.

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>>Sure Slick Rick
>>could rap, and
>>he made good songs, but was he really that much better than
>>what's on
>>the radio now? I say no.

cosine, sine, tangent.

don't be fkn evil.

>>>Sure Slick Rick
>>>could rap, and
>>>he made good songs, but was he really that much better than
>>>what's on
>>>the radio now? I say no.
>
>cosine, sine, tangent.

------------------------------------------
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IG: mistamonotone

>>>>Sure Slick Rick
>>>>could rap, and
>>>>he made good songs, but was he really that much better
>than
>>>>what's on
>>>>the radio now? I say no.
>>
>>cosine, sine, tangent.
>

don't be fkn evil.

don't be fkn evil.

like it was a serious query
and i can't argue with any thing i heard (only listened to a couple of minutes)

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

genre's of music.

why does she have to be retarded for thinking that?

and if he disagrees, he's a part of the problem.

*
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*

but back to the subject, each one of the people on the other side of Budden's argument each played a part in proving each one of his points
he was nice about it tho, but yeah they're living examples of what he's talking about
also, they're arguing against their own points, which proves Kenyon Martin right even more

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Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>also, they're arguing against their own points, which proves
>Kenyon Martin right even more

*weeps for the future*

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of Hiphop artist, Or kanye for that matter. Jay-z's status as current king of hiphop is a perfect storm of talent, opportunity and circumstance not anything particularly new. The idea that 20 years from now Jay will be able to command stadium sell out shows based on anything but nostalgia seem kind of ignorant.

If i were gonna suggest anyone for genuine long-term success in hiphop, without wanting to sound like a brownnoser, it'd be the roots.

In conclusion though i think all genres have their fickle, non-savvy fans hiphop just tends to have the largest proportion

>If i were gonna suggest anyone for genuine long-term success
>in hiphop, without wanting to sound like a brownnoser, it'd be
>the roots.

but that would be expecting any of those debaters to be "savvy"

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There's hip hop guys who've had 'careers'....

Doc Dre is the best example imo...but yah, you could throw the roots in there....Jayz, Nas, Em's getting there....

I can see what Joe B is saying...but he's trying to court the kid vote and that's probably why he's frusterated.

I see a pretty solid thing amongst thirty year old hip hop fans who have nostalgia. This board has alot of that contingent. There's events in Toronto that cater to that all the time.

And we're kinda cherrypicking when we're talking about rock music. I mean....when Def Leppard, Bon Jovi and Motley Crue were ruling the rock market....it's not like their fans were 'savvy' about the history of rocknroll neither. Or country music fans that buy Shania Twain aren't researching Hank Williams and Willie Nelson.

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these kids stop respecting anyone once they're not in the limelight and once the new guy comes along their favorites are yesterday's news

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It's not all that different no matter what genre you look at.

It's just how kids are.

Look at how punk rock kids in the late seventies regarded older artists. John Rotten wore a shirt that said 'I hate Pink Floyd'....Joe Strummer sang 'phony beatlemania has bitten the dust'.

Kids just like having their own thing.

Try getting some younger rocknroll fans to listen to Muddy Waters or Elvis or something like that....you'll bore them to tears.

Or try getting some teenage dubstep rave-heads to listen to Steve Reich.

And the respect thing? I mean...yah....I think it's there in hip hop. The younger guys have a sorta distant respect thing. I think they honestly just find someone like Rakim boring. But they'll pay him some lip service here and there. I think this is the same for other genres too.

Exactly right. And when those kids grow up their musical tastes will expand. I know I didn't grow up listening to Rakim or NWA or even Ice cube but when I got to college I checked them joint out.

The oldest rock fans are 60+ the oldest hip hop fans are 35-40, still quite young.

www.anwarmorse.com
https://www.instagram.com/thereal_anwarmorse99/

>The oldest rock fans are 60+ the oldest hip hop fans are
>35-40, still quite young.

and you think the oldest fan are like 40?

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By and large yes. Not saying that no one over 40 listens to hip hop but yes.

www.anwarmorse.com
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Thinking of my older cousins..who would've been late teens & early 20s in around 79.

Do you really think there are many people in their early 50's that listen to hip hop. I mean, like enough that their purchasing power would be able to shape the medium? and If so do you agree with Joe Budden about their musical 'savvy'.

www.anwarmorse.com
https://www.instagram.com/thereal_anwarmorse99/

dude is def in his 50s, randomly purchases hip hop from the cream of the sales crop- snoop, arrested development (yup), lauren hill, Jay; he's not savvy in the sense of being a lessonhead, but he shows love to classics across time.

if you were 29 when 'Do The Right Thing' came out, you're 50 now- meaning Salt & Pepa, whodini, slick rick, etc were rocking when you were 26-27...

POEM-CEES
KOKAYI/CAESARZ
SPP WAXWORKS (DC)

THAYLOBLEU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=701fChgN9H4

my uncle in Korea is always requesting music.

People forget that guys like Kool Herc are over 55 years old...where do they think all the hip hop heads of that time went. Yeah a lot moved on, they're old & its a young man's vibe BUT some keep that energy.

So you honestly think the over 50 crowd is a large enough hip hop demo that their opinion hold sway on the genre? Really? Again, no one said there aren't any fans of hip hop but the one or two hip hop heads you know who are 50 hardly make a demographic.

www.anwarmorse.com
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that the 50 year olds need to hold sway over the entire genre..because that didn't seem to be the point before.

Not getting where you're going with this...

I do know that all the old school hip hop acts that are doing local shows now are doing them for old & young audiences. My sister just went to see Naughty By Nature and she was only 9 when OPP came out. Treach is 41 years old. The idea that the music isn't passing on is silly, it is. The hits of course tend to carry on..that's why they were popular hits.

Imo, people who love hip hop will love hip hop no matter how old they get.

he's saying Hip Hop fans don't really treat the music itself as anything other than something that serves a purpose, as well as being easily influenced

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Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

When you say new kind of artist you imply that the artist has been out for a short while.

>of Hiphop artist, Or kanye for that matter. Jay-z's status as current >king of hiphop is a perfect storm of talent, opportunity and >circumstance not anything particularly new. The idea that 20 years >from now Jay will be able to command stadium sell out shows based on >anything but nostalgia seem kind of ignorant.
>If i were gonna suggest anyone for genuine long-term success in >hiphop, without wanting to sound like a brownnoser, it'd be the roots.


How many of these young niggas really respect The Roots' greatness? They don't see them on BET and know them as the dudes on Fallon's show. This ain't hate at all. They like Kobe, niggas just hate because they can't respect greatness.

I'd honestly say that the "new" blueprint would be Lupe. Tour for years build a fanbase and keep going. With that said none of the artists out now are doing any new or really a blueprint for anything. There's not a relevant "new" artist doing anything on a scale now that wasn't done back in the day.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

they're saying that before Jay a dude like him would only be on as an old school artist at this point...he's not on the block or reppin Marcy anymore but he still manages to stay relevant...thats a new thing in hiphop. he's the first successfull mainstream MC to last this long and not look like an ass doing it by trying to be his young self or talk about what he was talking about 20 years ago (for the most part) so it shows young hiphop artists that they dont have to fear still being a rapper at 30 like they use to. they're not saying he's still gonna be selling out stadiums in 20 years but they're saying what he's doing will make it possible for dudes getting on now to have careers in 20 years that go beyond hiphop honors and half-assed reunion tours.

>The idea that 20 years from now Jay will be able to command
>stadium sell out shows based on anything but nostalgia seem
>kind of ignorant.

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AT THIS MESSAGEBOARD TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT BUTTONS WAS TALKING ABOUT

You slap the nigga(DRAKE) five n he gon moisturize ya palms nahmean!-BIG GHOST NAHMEAN!

You old dinosaur motherfuckers need to put your glasses on and see the ridiculousness of such an argument.

This is Joe Budden being a pussy and blaming an audience for his inability to reach them.

What are his dumb ass verses on Slaughterhouse too deep and that's why people ain't loving his shit? No, it's just fucking boring Joe Budden, sorry. You could hear every word, read every lyric and after each and every verse he ain't said shit that's important.

Nice job serving up a dumb ass young girl, easy target.

As if this motherfucker would be talking this shit if his shit blew up like he wanted it to back when he was made "Pump it up". He'd be in some strip club smacking girls asses, not pretending new rappers don't get on 'cause the fans are too dumb.

You fucking antiques would never allow progression if we did shit your way. People would be rehashing 80s and 90's rap every few releases and you'd be losing your shit like it's so fresh and new.

Don't blame the fans, step your game up and make music worth checking for you pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-mature assholes. If he's 30 years old unable to accomplish what some 19-24 year olds are doing right now, maybe somebody better check themselves before blaming other shit.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

on the low, this is also true.

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Why do you even post here? I've been lurking on this board for several months now and all I ever see you do is cry about "old geezers" that wish it was still '94. You like mainstream bullshit, you're the majority, the fuck you crying for?

Anyway, I got into Hip Hop back in '91-'92 and what I did was, I went and bought the previous tapes of all the artists that I liked and did some back tracking. I assumed most people that call themselves a fan of something would do the same but nah, not the case. Definitely not with most Hip Hop fans.

These kids think they can proclaim their favorite rapper of the moment the "GOAT" but they have no knowledge of history to make such claims. Some boards I read, Lil Wayne is the consensus GOAT, another one, it's Jay-Z, another one it's Rakim (I ain't mad at that), another one it was fucking Aceyalone of all people. Finding a message board with decent Hip Hop discussions is hard as hell and I've about given.

I've searched the net for a decent Hip Hop message board and I've come to the same conclusion as Joe Budden. Hip Hop fans are dumb. The fans, the labels and many of the new artists themselves treat it as disposable music. Shit is sad to me.

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