Sorry to rehash this topic over and over but gotta ask:

Was Fela's sound more influenced by James or was it the other way around?


Having this discussion with some older cats and they swear Fela took from James. Came to America, saw what JB was doing and took that shit back to Africa.



educate, my fellow lessonheads.

>Was Fela's sound more influenced by James or was it the other
>way around?

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listen to his music before and after James came and did his shit, it's pretty cut and dry
it's also plain to see that JB was influenced by Fela as well
niggas just love to talk to be talking and shit, thats all

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Yep.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't JB's routine the one thing that motivated Fela to get form his band when he saw JB live in the 60s while he was living in London? I think I vaguely read an item about that.

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

the amount of influence is often over stated ...in an effort to minimize the impact that James Brown had on Fela.

the problem in giving the impression that the influence was equal is the timeline..

the story of James Brown's band...Bootsy....and Dave Mathews, his musical arranger, in particular visiting Fela's club in Lagos and Dave Mathews was "writing stuff down" because James sent him there to check Fela out...Let's accept that as being true....

couple of things.... this occured in 1970 when James Brown toured Nigeria....I mean.. Was James music differen prior to 1970 than it was after 1970?? yeah....sure. But I do not believe that people in James Brown's band who were exposed to Fela's music is the primary reason for that post-1970 sound. In fact I wouldn't even call it a major influence. Especially considring the fact that Bootsy was one of the primary people was there in Lagos and really dug what Fela was doing, Boots only was with James for less than 2 year. Sure..Bootsy loved Fela, but even as a late teen, Bootsy was bringing a boat load of influences, and creative style to James Brown well beyond what he saw briefly with Fela.

people have taken comments from Bootsy and Dave Mathews talking about how amazing Fela and his musicians were to say THAT is proof that James "stole" from Fela...or more PC was influenced by Fela to the same degree that James Brown has influenced Fela.


Fela, on the other hand, his exposure to James Brown's music came BEFORE he really put his signature sound, style and groove out to the world. James Brown, at the time when Fela experienced his music as well as his style and personna, James was a soul music icon....in the process of defining Funk music....and was a huge Socio-political figure in the Black Community in America and expanding throughout the world. What James Brown was when Fela saw him....Fela would become in his country. James Brown provided a musical and a social construct for Fela Kuti.

Fair to say that they both influenced each other. More than Fair to say that Fela Kuti was an incredible, influential musician, artist and man. But the amount and degree of influence is often exaggerated in regards to how much Fela influenced James Brown's music.

Either way...both are legendary...peerless artists and men.

cool thanks

>couple of things.... this occured in 1970 when James Brown
>toured Nigeria....I mean.. Was James music differen prior to
>1970 than it was after 1970?? yeah....sure.

yes.

But I do not
>believe that people in James Brown's band who were exposed to
>Fela's music is the primary reason for that post-1970 sound.

Bootsy himself said that after that trip, they deliberately wanted to sound more like the stuff they heard in Lagos.

>In fact I wouldn't even call it a major influence. Especially
>considring the fact that Bootsy was one of the primary people
>was there in Lagos and really dug what Fela was doing, Boots
>only was with James for less than 2 year.

And? Even if he left the band soon after, does that mean that he took the sound that he and the others had crafted?

Sure..Bootsy loved
>Fela, but even as a late teen, Bootsy was bringing a boat load
>of influences, and creative style to James Brown well beyond
>what he saw briefly with Fela.

Nobody said that Fela was his ONLY influence.

>people have taken comments from Bootsy and Dave Mathews
>talking about how amazing Fela and his musicians were to say
>THAT is proof that James "stole" from Fela...or more PC was
>influenced by Fela to the same degree that James Brown has
>influenced Fela.

Meanwhile, you're twisting yourself up into shapes to try to downplay the influence and make it seem like it was nothing.

And what's even more interesting is the way that you completely ignore the fact that Fred Wesley himself said that he left the band because he wasn't feeling James' biting, and that James gave him a big stack of African 45s and ordered him to transcribe them.

OR that you like to pretend that the Cameroonian musician Andre Marie Tala didn't actually sue James Brown for plagiarism... and WON.

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>And what's even more interesting is the way that you
>completely ignore the fact that Fred Wesley himself said that
>he left the band because he wasn't feeling James' biting, and
>that James gave him a big stack of African 45s and ordered him
>to transcribe them.
>
>OR that you like to pretend that the Cameroonian musician
>Andre Marie Tala didn't actually sue James Brown for
>plagiarism... and WON.

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>>couple of things.... this occured in 1970 when James Brown
>>toured Nigeria....I mean.. Was James music differen prior to
>>1970 than it was after 1970?? yeah....sure.
>
>yes.
>
> But I do not
>>believe that people in James Brown's band who were exposed
>to
>>Fela's music is the primary reason for that post-1970 sound.
>
>
>Bootsy himself said that after that trip, they deliberately
>wanted to sound more like the stuff they heard in Lagos.
>
>>In fact I wouldn't even call it a major influence.
>Especially
>>considring the fact that Bootsy was one of the primary
>people
>>was there in Lagos and really dug what Fela was doing, Boots
>>only was with James for less than 2 year.
>
>And? Even if he left the band soon after, does that mean that
>he took the sound that he and the others had crafted?
>
> Sure..Bootsy loved
>>Fela, but even as a late teen, Bootsy was bringing a boat
>load
>>of influences, and creative style to James Brown well beyond
>>what he saw briefly with Fela.
>
>Nobody said that Fela was his ONLY influence.
>
>>people have taken comments from Bootsy and Dave Mathews
>>talking about how amazing Fela and his musicians were to say
>>THAT is proof that James "stole" from Fela...or more PC was
>>influenced by Fela to the same degree that James Brown has
>>influenced Fela.
>
>Meanwhile, you're twisting yourself up into shapes to try to
>downplay the influence and make it seem like it was nothing.

to you because you are one of the ones who are overstating it. I'm sticking accuracy and facts as usual, and you are utilizing formulated conjecture and exaggeration.



And what's even more interesting is the way that you
>completely ignore the fact that Fred Wesley himself said that
>he left the band because he wasn't feeling James' biting, and
>that James gave him a big stack of African 45s and ordered him
>to transcribe them.


James Brown was influenced by African music. No question. But people are not accurate when they are insinuate that James influence from Fela was equal to his influence on Fela. That is a myth. Completely.

I'm not saying the influence was "nothing" ...I'm saying it was minimal.....and in the big picture of James Brown's career..his sound from the early 60's to the late 70's.....it's almost insignificant when placed in the context of his other American musical influences. I mean compare Fela's influence on James to the influence of Gospel music, or the Blues on James Brown. Fela's influence was both indirect, and in the big picture insignificant when taken in the context of James Brown's entire career and his signature sound he brought to modern music.

When Fela came to America he was influenced not just by the music in itself, but by the Black Power cultural movement and the musical elements that where the "soundtrack" for that movement. When Fela came here to America, James Brown was probably the most famous Black man on planet earth, and most definitely the most influential Black muscial artist at the time.....very much part of the Socio-political culture that was the so-called Black Power movement.

I'll repeat that what Fela returned to Africa to be....James Brown was in America at that time. I just from a common sense perspective cannot equate that level of influence with some guys in a band going to see Fela play in lagos, or Fred getting some African 45's to listen too. Because when Dave and Boots went to the club in Lagos, and when Fred got those 45s....JAMES BROWN WAS ALREADY JAMES BROWN...his sound, style and signature were already defined.

Fela's exposure to James Brown's music and his surrounding cultural impact happened BEFORE Fela became Fela so to speak.

I understand as a person from Africa, you are inclined to defend Fela....he's certainly not under attack from me, as I love and admire the man. But as is your wont, you get a little shaky with the facts and history to support your point of view, and any opportunity to minimize the influence of artists related to Funk music, you're gonna roll with that..lol. Even if it is James Brown.


OR that you like to pretend that the Cameroonian musician
>Andre Marie Tala didn't actually sue James Brown for
>plagiarism... and WON.


Okay....James bit a song for some obscure single and had to pay and give credit. Michael Jackson got sued for the you wanna be startin something riff and lost.

doesn't really prove your point.

>to you because you are one of the ones who are overstating it.
> I'm sticking accuracy and facts as usual, and you are
>utilizing formulated conjecture and exaggeration.

What am I overstating?

Dude, in #16 I analyzed cross-influence between them and provided actual examples to illustrate the exact points of influence.

What have YOU offered beyond a bunch of highfalutin talk and empty theory (most of which is inaccurate)?


>James Brown was influenced by African music. No question. But
>people are not accurate when they are insinuate that James
>influence from Fela was equal to his influence on Fela. That
>is a myth. Completely.

Illustrate it in the same way that I have, then.

Warren Coolidge, please note that this is an area (among many) in which my expertise far exceeds yours. That is, being that I know a whole lot about African music as well as about African-American music.

>I'm not saying the influence was "nothing" ...I'm saying it
>was minimal.....and in the big picture of James Brown's
>career..his sound from the early 60's to the late
>70's.....it's almost insignificant when placed in the context
>of his other American musical influences.

I never said anything about Fela influencing the entire scope of James' career and I've never ever EVER seen anybody say that either. You are moving the goalpost to avoid the obvious point being underscored here: there was a period of James Brown's career when he was influenced by African musicians.

After all, if you look at the scope of Fela's career, you could also argue that James Brown's influence was quite minimal. But if you ask me: was Fela influenced by James at some point? Of course my answer will be YES!


I mean compare
>Fela's influence on James to the influence of Gospel music, or
>the Blues on James Brown. Fela's influence was both indirect,
>and in the big picture insignificant when taken in the context
>of James Brown's entire career and his signature sound he
>brought to modern music.

LOL the goalpost is almost in the outfield at this point...

>When Fela came to America he was influenced not just by the
>music in itself, but by the Black Power cultural movement and
>the musical elements that where the "soundtrack" for that
>movement.

And here's where you miss the boat by talking what you don't know.

Fela was already doing James Brown-style numbers BEFORE he came to America.

What he learned in America and from the Black Power movement was that the key to success was not to imitate James Brown--after all, back in Nigeria EVERYBODY was on the James Brown (night) train--but to draw more from his own cultural roots. At that point, he composed the first afrobeat tune "My Lady's Frustration" as well as other Afro-Cuban accented tracks like "Ololufe Mi"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJNxOiRJi8

at that point, he started moving AWAY from James Brown influence to find his own voice.

>I'll repeat that what Fela returned to Africa to be....James
>Brown was in America at that time.

NOPE!

The man who was to Africa what James Brown was to America was Geraldo Pino, not Fela.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL-abkLWFY

I just from a common sense
>perspective cannot equate that level of influence with some
>guys in a band going to see Fela play in lagos, or Fred
>getting some African 45's to listen too. Because when Dave
>and Boots went to the club in Lagos, and when Fred got those
>45s....JAMES BROWN WAS ALREADY JAMES BROWN...his sound, style
>and signature were already defined.

James Brown's style actually changed a lot over the course of his career... Yes, there was an essential James Brown-ness that remained consistent, but there were many many, many musical changes from the 1950s to the early 60s to the late 60s to the early 70s.

>Fela's exposure to James Brown's music and his surrounding
>cultural impact happened BEFORE Fela became Fela so to speak.

No. Fela was already Fela and had a career spanning back to the late 1950s in London.

The fact that YOU might not know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

>I understand as a person from Africa, you are inclined to
>defend Fela....he's certainly not under attack from me, as I
>love and admire the man.

I'm not here to defend Fela... I'm here to defend truth.

But as is your wont, you get a
>little shaky with the facts and history to support your point
>of view, and any opportunity to minimize the influence of
>artists related to Funk music, you're gonna roll with
>that..lol. Even if it is James Brown.

Like I said: I illustrated my point and I can provide many more examples if necessary.

You have done nothing except to say I am wrong without doing anything to prove it.


>Okay....James bit a song for some obscure single and had to
>pay and give credit. Michael Jackson got sued for the you
>wanna be startin something riff and lost.
>
>doesn't really prove your point

Oh yeah, and now you gonna act like it was nothing when a while back you were on some "James couldn't have stolen from African musicians because where would he have even heard their records back then?"

You think I forgot about that shit?

I forget nothing!
.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>>to you because you are one of the ones who are overstating
>it.
>> I'm sticking accuracy and facts as usual, and you are
>>utilizing formulated conjecture and exaggeration.
>
>What am I overstating?
>
>Dude, in #16 I analyzed cross-influence between them and
>provided actual examples to illustrate the exact points of
>influence.


There may be cross-influences...my point is the degree to which there was cross influences. James Brown influenced Fela much more than Fela influenced James Brown. That is my point.


>
>What have YOU offered beyond a bunch of highfalutin talk and
>empty theory (most of which is inaccurate)?

The facts I offered was the timeline. What Fela was doing before he came to America and was exposed to the Black Power movement and James Brown, and what he was doing after that experience. THAT influence in greater than Bootsy and Dave Mathews going to the club, or Fred hearing some African 45s.

it's apples and oranges....still fruits...but not the same one.

>
>>James Brown was influenced by African music. No question.
>But
>>people are not accurate when they are insinuate that James
>>influence from Fela was equal to his influence on Fela.
>That
>>is a myth. Completely.
>
>Illustrate it in the same way that I have, then.
>
>Warren Coolidge, please note that this is an area (among many)
>in which my expertise far exceeds yours. That is, being that I
>know a whole lot about African music as well as about
>African-American music.

Facts are facts. I've always considered you to be a phoney regarding your alleged expertise, but even though you may have more experience in terms of African music, Fela Kuti is most certainly an area where Warren Coolidge has done plenty of research...and James Brown?? I mean that goes without saying.

regardless of what you know..or what you don't know. You flat out make stuff up and utilize various macinations regarding true facts and history. So what expertise you may have is null and void with Warren Coolidge as you've shown yourself to be less than accurate about historical facts.



>>I'm not saying the influence was "nothing" ...I'm saying it
>>was minimal.....and in the big picture of James Brown's
>>career..his sound from the early 60's to the late
>>70's.....it's almost insignificant when placed in the
>context
>>of his other American musical influences.
>
>I never said anything about Fela influencing the entire scope
>of James' career and I've never ever EVER seen anybody say
>that either. You are moving the goalpost to avoid the obvious
>point being underscored here: there was a period of James
>Brown's career when he was influenced by African musicians.

My bringing up James Brown's entire career is me pointing out the "degree" and magnitude of this alleged influence from Fela. When people say they both influenced each other, or that James Brown "stole" from Fela....or some even saying that James didn't influence Fela at all while James bit Fela's entire style.( Things things are being said in these discussions...do a google search)

I'll come back to the same point I started with ..

James influence on Fela was BIGGER than Fela's on James Brown.

that's my simple point.



>After all, if you look at the scope of Fela's career, you
>could also argue that James Brown's influence was quite
>minimal. But if you ask me: was Fela influenced by James at
>some point? Of course my answer will be YES!


Well...I'd disagree with that. Fela's music and life mission as an artist went in a different direction after being exposed to the Black power movement and the music of James Brown. When he returned he changed the name of his group, changed his sound, and took on a more political message because of what he experienced in America. Most certainly he went beyond that with his own style and vision in the context of African music...

>
> I mean compare
>>Fela's influence on James to the influence of Gospel music,
>or
>>the Blues on James Brown. Fela's influence was both
>indirect,
>>and in the big picture insignificant when taken in the
>context
>>of James Brown's entire career and his signature sound he
>>brought to modern music.
>
>LOL the goalpost is almost in the outfield at this point...

I've been consistent.....my point is that the influence was not equal. That's just a fact. It wasn't.

>
>>When Fela came to America he was influenced not just by the
>>music in itself, but by the Black Power cultural movement
>and
>>the musical elements that where the "soundtrack" for that
>>movement.
>
>And here's where you miss the boat by talking what you don't
>know.
>
>Fela was already doing James Brown-style numbers BEFORE he
>came to America.
>
>What he learned in America and from the Black Power movement
>was that the key to success was not to imitate James
>Brown--after all, back in Nigeria EVERYBODY was on the James
>Brown (night) train--but to draw more from his own cultural
>roots. At that point, he composed the first afrobeat tune "My
>Lady's Frustration" as well as other Afro-Cuban accented
>tracks like "Ololufe Mi"
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJNxOiRJi8
>
>at that point, he started moving AWAY from James Brown
>influence to find his own voice.


James Brown WAS all about finding one's own voice....lol. That was why he's associated with the Black Power movement. It was about doing for self....defining one's self.

See this is what I'm saying...You are mischaractizing what James Brown meant to that particular movement and what he did as an artist. Again you have an alternative history for African Americans that is usually not accurate and always minimizes them and their influence.



>>I'll repeat that what Fela returned to Africa to be....James
>>Brown was in America at that time.
>
>NOPE!
>
>The man who was to Africa what James Brown was to America was
>Geraldo Pino, not Fela.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL-abkLWFY
>
> I just from a common sense
>>perspective cannot equate that level of influence with some
>>guys in a band going to see Fela play in lagos, or Fred
>>getting some African 45's to listen too. Because when Dave
>>and Boots went to the club in Lagos, and when Fred got those
>>45s....JAMES BROWN WAS ALREADY JAMES BROWN...his sound,
>style
>>and signature were already defined.
>
>James Brown's style actually changed a lot over the course of
>his career... Yes, there was an essential James Brown-ness
>that remained consistent, but there were many many, many
>musical changes from the 1950s to the early 60s to the late
>60s to the early 70s.

the elements that created James brown were already there, and concrete. Sure he changed...but it was James Brown changing..not some guy trying to find his identity.


>
>>Fela's exposure to James Brown's music and his surrounding
>>cultural impact happened BEFORE Fela became Fela so to
>speak.
>
>No. Fela was already Fela and had a career spanning back to
>the late 1950s in London.
>
>The fact that YOU might not know about it doesn't mean it
>didn't happen.

I know all about it....enough to recognize how it changed after being exposed to James Brown and Black power.


>
>>I understand as a person from Africa, you are inclined to
>>defend Fela....he's certainly not under attack from me, as I
>>love and admire the man.
>
>I'm not here to defend Fela... I'm here to defend truth.
>
> But as is your wont, you get a
>>little shaky with the facts and history to support your
>point
>>of view, and any opportunity to minimize the influence of
>>artists related to Funk music, you're gonna roll with
>>that..lol. Even if it is James Brown.
>
>Like I said: I illustrated my point and I can provide many
>more examples if necessary.
>
>You have done nothing except to say I am wrong without doing
>anything to prove it.

Dude..YOU responded to MY post. lol. Nobody needed you to come and be contrary.


>
>
>>Okay....James bit a song for some obscure single and had to
>>pay and give credit. Michael Jackson got sued for the you
>>wanna be startin something riff and lost.
>>
>>doesn't really prove your point
>
>Oh yeah, and now you gonna act like it was nothing when a
>while back you were on some "James couldn't have stolen from
>African musicians because where would he have even heard their
>records back then?"
>
>You think I forgot about that shit?
>
>I forget nothing!
>.

Dude gave him a tape..he bit the tape. okay...it proves nothing

Because it is very clear that you do not know what you are even talking about.

Seriously, Dub... Just drop your pride and acknowledge that someone might know more than you, and stop spewing ignorance. Okay?

>There may be cross-influences...my point is the degree to
>which there was cross influences. James Brown influenced Fela
>much more than Fela influenced James Brown. That is my point.

Again: I posted examples identifying the extent of influence both ways... I could have gone much deeper into it but I felt it might be overkill to take it that far in what I felt was a non-discussion.

But if you want to MAKE something of it, we can take it there.

In any case, you have offered nothing--NOTHING!--to support your claim beyond just repeating it over and over.

Explain to me: What IS the extent to which James Brown influenced Fela?

Why not expand upon that since you seem to know so well?


>The facts I offered was the timeline. What Fela was doing
>before he came to America and was exposed to the Black Power
>movement and James Brown, and what he was doing after that
>experience. THAT influence in greater than Bootsy and Dave
>Mathews going to the club, or Fred hearing some African 45s.

But your timeline--and your facts--are bullshit.

For your information, Fela was not "exposed to James Brown" when he came to America in 1969. James Brown was already HUGE in NIgeria and Ghana starting from 1966 and had already spawned scores of imitators (to the point that local music critics were worried that the youths' devotion to James Brown was going to wipe out indigenous music).

Fela didn't come to the USA to learn how to copy James Brown... He was already doing that before.

When he came to the US, he saw black Americans trying to connect more with Africa and he asked himself why he's trying to imitate black America when black America is meanwhile trying to be more like Africans?

LOL @ you spouting that tired and fake "Fela got influenced by James Brown in the US" line that some lazy journalist dreamed up and ignorant people continue to parrot.

>Facts are facts. I've always considered you to be a phoney
>regarding your alleged expertise, but even though you may have
>more experience in terms of African music, Fela Kuti is most
>certainly an area where Warren Coolidge has done plenty of
>research...and James Brown?? I mean that goes without saying.

Facts are facts, so why don't you bring some to the table instead of echoing some bullshit that isn't even true.

And trust me, my brother... Regardless of whatever research you claim you might have done , I doubt you have an iota of the Fela knowledge that I do. If you did, you wouldn't have said that "Fela got influenced by James Brown" b.s. above.

If Fela was influenced by any black Amerian musicians when he was in the US, it was by the progressive jazz guys, not James Brown.

Here's the sound that Fela came back from Los Angeles with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6lEZsXtS4Q

The main James Brown retention there is in the rhythm guitar attack... and I guess you could make a case for the bassline *at some points* as having a "Brand New Bag"-type feel.

But the drums are not James.
The horns are definitely not James.
Percussion pattern, not James.
Electric organ... not James. (Meanwhile, James started playing organ more on tracks when he got back from Lagos!)

Fela started composing modally and in minor keys, which was different from what James Brown was doing in 1969:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh2rB7uIuZ0

again, let's compare to Fela around the same time (this one is 1970):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wZraRpcYEA

Beyond the rhythm guitar and a few bass figures, please point out the James Brown influences.

>regardless of what you know..or what you don't know. You flat
>out make stuff up and utilize various macinations regarding
>true facts and history. So what expertise you may have is null
>and void with Warren Coolidge as you've shown yourself to be
>less than accurate about historical facts.

LOL Come back and tell me that at the end of the year when my peer-reviewed book drops, okay?

>My bringing up James Brown's entire career is me pointing out
>the "degree" and magnitude of this alleged influence from
>Fela. When people say they both influenced each other, or that
>James Brown "stole" from Fela....or some even saying that
>James didn't influence Fela at all while James bit Fela's
>entire style.( Things things are being said in these
>discussions...do a google search)

Yeah. How about you stick to what *I* said and not bring up all kinds of theoretical nonsense that is not my concern?

>I'll come back to the same point I started with ..
>
>James influence on Fela was BIGGER than Fela's on James Brown.
>
>
>that's my simple point.

Like I said: Break down the influence for me.

Post up some tracks so I can hear.

Post up the James Brown track that sounds like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMgA22Biwfg&playnext=1&list=PL89D224997E907177

After all this is what he was playing when he got back from Los Angeles...

Go ahead... Support your "true facts," Collidge.


>Well...I'd disagree with that. Fela's music and life mission
>as an artist went in a different direction after being exposed
>to the Black power movement and the music of James Brown.
>When he returned he changed the name of his group, changed his
>sound, and took on a more political message because of what he
>experienced in America. Most certainly he went beyond that
>with his own style and vision in the context of African
>music...

You insist on repeating that "He came to America and got exposed to James Brown" bullshit, huh?

I have to let you know that as long as you keep saying that, it is utterly impossible for me to take you seriously. Because anybody who is even remotely familiar with the West African pop music scene of the 1960s would know that Fela would not have to go to the US to be "exposed to James Brown" since JB's music was already on the radio 24/7 back home and was being played by bands in every single nightclub.

In fact, Fela himself said that by 1967 he had to play James Brown tunes in his act because if you didn't play James, nobody wanted to hear you.

(I can provide citation for this if you require it)

>James Brown WAS all about finding one's own voice....lol. That
>was why he's associated with the Black Power movement. It was
>about doing for self....defining one's self.

At this point, you are just making yourself look foolish with this nonsense you are talking.

By the way, Fela was not even necessarily inspired by the music of the Black Power movement as he was by the IDEOLOGY AND CULTURE.

It was reading The Autobiography of Malcolm X that opened his eyes... not listening to James Brown sing "America is My Home"


>>No. Fela was already Fela and had a career spanning back to
>>the late 1950s in London.
>>
>>The fact that YOU might not know about it doesn't mean it
>>didn't happen.
>
>I know all about it....enough to recognize how it changed
>after being exposed to James Brown and Black power.

LOL keep saying that bullshit. You just make it easier for me to discredit you.


>Dude..YOU responded to MY post. lol. Nobody needed you to
>come and be contrary.

Somebody needed to come in here to point out that you're talking out your ass, though.

I've challenged your stance, and you are unable to defend it.

You lost.


>Dude gave him a tape..he bit the tape. okay...it proves
>nothing

Ohhhhhhh... But you said James never heard any African music, let alone biting it.

You remember that?

I DO!

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Because it is very clear that you do not know what you are
>even talking about.
>
>Seriously, Dub... Just drop your pride and acknowledge that
>someone might know more than you, and stop spewing ignorance.
>Okay?


That is your problem. You have no other purpose other than to try and prove that you know something that Warren Coolidge doesn't know. Facts be damned.....lol.

You got a problem homie. From my first post in this Warren Coolidge has merely pointed out that all these people who act James Brown stole from Fela.....and that the idea that James Brown influenced Fela is some sort of conspiracy ..... The fukkin musical and all the books, documentaries and articles on the subject have been wrong....James Brown didn't do shit..he was insignificant.....cats were fukkin with the autobiography of Malcom X and Say it Loud, I'm Black and I'm proud was just some throw away pop tune by a theif...

all that bull shit......is just that....bullshit.


The influence wasn't equal..... period.


>
>>There may be cross-influences...my point is the degree to
>>which there was cross influences. James Brown influenced
>Fela
>>much more than Fela influenced James Brown. That is my
>point.
>
>Again: I posted examples identifying the extent of influence
>both ways... I could have gone much deeper into it but I felt
>it might be overkill to take it that far in what I felt was a
>non-discussion.


Your timeline is fukked up.

You're comparing an alleged influence based on a night on the town in Lagos by 2 of James Brown's band members...one of which was in the band for a year and a half...

to a dude being in America for 2 years...and James Brown was in his prime...his gurl was on a James Brown fanatic...and was schooling him on American Black Power movement..

it's just not a comparison...

I don't give a fukk what it is....just comparing the 2 insinuates that the exposure to both was equal....that the degree of influence was equal...

During the 2 years Fela Kuti was in America James Brown was the most famous and popular Black man on the face of the earth ...

I mean, do you understand that????? lol...

James Brown man.....

early 70's?????????

No Black man in any country was more famous man.... (Ali eventually became as famous..but not until like 1974-ish)...


>
>But if you want to MAKE something of it, we can take it
>there.
>
>In any case, you have offered nothing--NOTHING!--to support
>your claim beyond just repeating it over and over.
>
>Explain to me: What IS the extent to which James Brown
>influenced Fela?

My claim was that the degree of influence was not equal.....and claims that Fela influenced James Brown have been exagerated...

you can see it in the timeline...

Bootsy and Dave Mathews went to a club...

and it resulted an influence equal to that of a dude learning how to make Funky music from the most Famous and important Black man on Earth at the time....oh...who also happened to make funky music.

lolol...

come on man...



>
>Why not expand upon that since you seem to know so well?

it's nothing to expand upon..

just the facts.

I'm usually the king of youtube postings for proof, but in this case...I'm about providing an accurate timeline....a truthful historical summary.

you making it a like-for-like musical comparison accepts some things are simply riddiculous.....ie. Bootsy and Dave Mathews at the club influenced like the impact of James Brown on the world that Fela resided prior to his launching the musical and social misson the world would come to know him by.


>
>
>>The facts I offered was the timeline. What Fela was doing
>>before he came to America and was exposed to the Black Power
>>movement and James Brown, and what he was doing after that
>>experience. THAT influence in greater than Bootsy and Dave
>>Mathews going to the club, or Fred hearing some African 45s.
>
>
>But your timeline--and your facts--are bullshit.

So James exposure to Fela comes from elsewhere????

really????


the only real counter to what I've been saying would be to provide some exmaples where James Brown was studying copying and exposed to Fela's music beyond Bootsy and Dave's trip to that club.

haven't read your response below, but I'm sure you'll provide no evidence that James Brown's exposure to Fela is beyond that limited and minimal experience of 2 of his band membmers going to a club...lol.



>
>For your information, Fela was not "exposed to James Brown"
>when he came to America in 1969. James Brown was already HUGE
>in NIgeria and Ghana starting from 1966 and had already
>spawned scores of imitators (to the point that local music
>critics were worried that the youths' devotion to James Brown
>was going to wipe out indigenous music).

I'm sure he was aware of James Brown...because like I said...by 1970 he was the most Famous Black man on Earth.....and surely in 1966 he was a hugely famous and successful Black American Artist....

but James didn't know Fela in 1966....



>
>Fela didn't come to the USA to learn how to copy James
>Brown... He was already doing that before.

he knew about James brown ...hell.....who didnt...... but as they saying...seeing is believing.... Experieincing Black America at that time...experieicing the music of James Brown and Funk music's influence on urban America...and the quality of musicianship and showmanship associated with that....

it changed him...just like it did for a lot of other aritsts...all over the country and the world.

He was James Brown nigga......the fukk you think.



>
>When he came to the US, he saw black Americans trying to
>connect more with Africa and he asked himself why he's trying
>to imitate black America when black America is meanwhile
>trying to be more like Africans?
>
>LOL @ you spouting that tired and fake "Fela got influenced by
>James Brown in the US" line that some lazy journalist dreamed
>up and ignorant people continue to parrot.


So here we go..... We get to you real point. You honestly believe that James didn't influence Fela. It's all been a lie.....the musicals....the books ..the movies..the documentaries.....the articles...


The idea that James Brown influencing Fela Kuti was just some ignorant Americans parrotting ignorant jorunalists...

right...

that was my point from the begining...this alternative reality agenda is bogus...and people shouldn't buy into these false Anti-African American agenda..... It's so foolish muthafukkas will even act like James Brown didn't do shit.....

James Brown???

lolol....

amazing...





>
>>Facts are facts. I've always considered you to be a phoney
>>regarding your alleged expertise, but even though you may
>have
>>more experience in terms of African music, Fela Kuti is most
>>certainly an area where Warren Coolidge has done plenty of
>>research...and James Brown?? I mean that goes without
>saying.
>
>Facts are facts, so why don't you bring some to the table
>instead of echoing some bullshit that isn't even true.


your stance is that James Brown ...the most Famous Black man...the Funkiest Black man ever....he didn't influence Fela Kuti...

it's all a conspiracy or something....





>
>And trust me, my brother... Regardless of whatever research
>you claim you might have done , I doubt you have an iota of
>the Fela knowledge that I do. If you did, you wouldn't have
>said that "Fela got influenced by James Brown" b.s. above.


So all the writers..... historians...... it's all been a lie....

afkap has the truth....




>
>If Fela was influenced by any black Amerian musicians when he
>was in the US, it was by the progressive jazz guys, not James
>Brown.


Right.... Fela was in America...his future wife was a James Brown fanatic....he got into the autobiography of Malcom X....James Brown was the most famous Black man on planet earth....but no.... Fela was fukkin with Rashaan Roland Kirk and Freddie Hubbard....lol..

right....

skipped right over james brown..




>
>Here's the sound that Fela came back from Los Angeles with:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6lEZsXtS4Q
>
>The main James Brown retention there is in the rhythm guitar
>attack... and I guess you could make a case for the bassline
>*at some points* as having a "Brand New Bag"-type feel.
>
>But the drums are not James.
>The horns are definitely not James.
>Percussion pattern, not James.
>Electric organ... not James. (Meanwhile, James started playing
>organ more on tracks when he got back from Lagos!)
>
>Fela started composing modally and in minor keys, which was
>different from what James Brown was doing in 1969:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh2rB7uIuZ0
>
>again, let's compare to Fela around the same time (this one is
>1970):
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wZraRpcYEA
>
>Beyond the rhythm guitar and a few bass figures, please point
>out the James Brown influences.


placed in the context of who made what and when..there is no question that James Brown influenced Fela heavily..

one of the initial things I hear....particularly on Ololufe Mi...which is one of my favorite Fela songs... ..... the use of the high hat starting at the 1:35 mark here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJNxOiRJi8 until about 3:25 ...after the 2 horn solos..... I mean that is pure james brown....the whole structure of the song.......sing a verse...come to the bridge....during the bridge the drum stays on the high hat steady .....that would be the part where James Brown would bust a quick move..and then give it to fred....then maceo....or sinclair pickney....on the solo......but as james is grooving......Jab....and/or Clyde is killin the high hat..







>
>>regardless of what you know..or what you don't know. You
>flat
>>out make stuff up and utilize various macinations regarding
>>true facts and history. So what expertise you may have is
>null
>>and void with Warren Coolidge as you've shown yourself to be
>>less than accurate about historical facts.
>
>LOL Come back and tell me that at the end of the year when my
>peer-reviewed book drops, okay?


right..... just like the movie right?? I'll check for it....





>
>>My bringing up James Brown's entire career is me pointing
>out
>>the "degree" and magnitude of this alleged influence from
>>Fela. When people say they both influenced each other, or
>that
>>James Brown "stole" from Fela....or some even saying that
>>James didn't influence Fela at all while James bit Fela's
>>entire style.( Things things are being said in these
>>discussions...do a google search)
>
>Yeah. How about you stick to what *I* said and not bring up
>all kinds of theoretical nonsense that is not my concern?
>
>>I'll come back to the same point I started with ..
>>
>>James influence on Fela was BIGGER than Fela's on James
>Brown.
>>
>>
>>that's my simple point.
>
>Like I said: Break down the influence for me.
>
>Post up some tracks so I can hear.
>
>Post up the James Brown track that sounds like this:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMgA22Biwfg&playnext=1&list=PL89D224997E907177
>
>After all this is what he was playing when he got back from
>Los Angeles...
>
>Go ahead... Support your "true facts," Collidge.


Ololufemi.....Obe.....Shuffring and Shmiling...Fef ka efe....

off the top of my head those are some of his most james Brown-ish sounding songs..

earlier you showed a comparison and said some shit like other than the rythm guitar line..what else sounds like james brown???? lolol. I mean it's not like James Brown's guitar sounds on his music wasn't his most signature and influential sounds..... I mean the guy would have 3 rythm guitar lines on the same song playing at the same time like Hot Pants.... That's a James Brown signature.....




>
>
>>Well...I'd disagree with that. Fela's music and life mission
>>as an artist went in a different direction after being
>exposed
>>to the Black power movement and the music of James Brown.
>>When he returned he changed the name of his group, changed
>his
>>sound, and took on a more political message because of what
>he
>>experienced in America. Most certainly he went beyond that
>>with his own style and vision in the context of African
>>music...
>
>You insist on repeating that "He came to America and got
>exposed to James Brown" bullshit, huh?
>
>I have to let you know that as long as you keep saying that,
>it is utterly impossible for me to take you seriously. Because
>anybody who is even remotely familiar with the West African
>pop music scene of the 1960s would know that Fela would not
>have to go to the US to be "exposed to James Brown" since JB's
>music was already on the radio 24/7 back home and was being
>played by bands in every single nightclub.

He experienced a revolutionary Black American Culture of which James Brown, the most famous Black man on planet earth at that time, was a figurehead


>
>In fact, Fela himself said that by 1967 he had to play James
>Brown tunes in his act because if you didn't play James,
>nobody wanted to hear you.
>
>(I can provide citation for this if you require it)
>
>>James Brown WAS all about finding one's own voice....lol.
>That
>>was why he's associated with the Black Power movement. It
>was
>>about doing for self....defining one's self.
>
>At this point, you are just making yourself look foolish with
>this nonsense you are talking.
>
>By the way, Fela was not even necessarily inspired by the
>music of the Black Power movement as he was by the IDEOLOGY
>AND CULTURE.

can't disconnect the 2...sure you want to because it minimizes what these Black American legendary artists did....and the Black American movement....but no....disconnecting the 2 isn't remotely intellectually sound.


>
>It was reading The Autobiography of Malcolm X that opened his
>eyes... not listening to James Brown sing "America is My
>Home"
>
>
right...he read the book....but James Brown didn't influence him.


>>>No. Fela was already Fela and had a career spanning back to
>>>the late 1950s in London.
>>>
>>>The fact that YOU might not know about it doesn't mean it
>>>didn't happen.
>>
>>I know all about it....enough to recognize how it changed
>>after being exposed to James Brown and Black power.
>
>LOL keep saying that bullshit. You just make it easier for me
>to discredit you.
>
>
>>Dude..YOU responded to MY post. lol. Nobody needed you to
>>come and be contrary.
>
>Somebody needed to come in here to point out that you're
>talking out your ass, though.
>
>I've challenged your stance, and you are unable to defend it.
>
>You lost.
>
>
>>Dude gave him a tape..he bit the tape. okay...it proves
>>nothing
>
>Ohhhhhhh... But you said James never heard any African music,
>let alone biting it.
>
>You remember that?
>
>I DO!


nope..never said that......the influence was minimal...bootsy and dave went to the club and heard fela...

you wanting to equate that with the impact of James Brown on the world at the time Fela was in America is just plain ignorant...

>That is your problem. You have no other purpose other than to
>try and prove that you know something that Warren Coolidge
>doesn't know. Facts be damned.....lol.

Oh... So YOU are talking "facts"?

Okay... Let's take a look:

>You got a problem homie. From my first post in this Warren
>Coolidge has merely pointed out that all these people who act
>James Brown stole from Fela.....and that the idea that James
>Brown influenced Fela is some sort of conspiracy ..... The
>fukkin musical and all the books, documentaries and articles
>on the subject have been wrong...

What books, documentaries and articles are YOU quoting to be so wrong on every count?


>Your timeline is fukked up.

Okay. My timeline is fucked up.

Okay.

>You're comparing an alleged influence based on a night on the
>town in Lagos by 2 of James Brown's band members...one of
>which was in the band for a year and a half...
>to a dude being in America for 2 years...and James Brown was
>in his prime...his gurl was on a James Brown fanatic...and was
>schooling him on American Black Power movement..

First of all... Fela was in America for 9 months, not 2 years.

But it's MY timeline that is fucked up.

Secondly, as I have said before: I challenge you to provide me a legitimate citation of Sandra Smith being "a James Brown fanatic."

Just do that for me... if you didn't make it up, you liar.


>During the 2 years Fela Kuti was in America

9 months.

> James Brown was
>the most famous and popular Black man on the face of the earth

No... Muhammed Ali was.

But that's beside the point.

James Brown was not even at his commercial peak in 1969, by the way.


>No Black man in any country was more famous man.... (Ali
>eventually became as famous..but not until like 1974-ish)...

NOPE! Ali was already more famous than James Brown.

Don't think that just because you watched "When We Were Kings" that you know something. Ali was famous as fuck in Africa before the Rumble in the Jungle. He was almost a god in West Africa since he visited Nigeria in 1964.

So once again; YOU WRONG.


>My claim was that the degree of influence was not
>equal.....and claims that Fela influenced James Brown have
>been exagerated...

Show it to us in the music then.

>you can see it in the timeline...

The timeline... where you claim that Fela spent two years in the US and discovered James Brown whereas in his biography he states that he went to America to get AWAY from the saturation of James Brown in the Nigerian market?

THAT timeline?

Okay... LOL


>>Why not expand upon that since you seem to know so well?
>
>it's nothing to expand upon..
>
>just the facts.

Yes... "Facts."

*makes jerking off motions*

>I'm usually the king of youtube postings for proof, but in
>this case...I'm about providing an accurate timeline....a
>truthful historical summary.

I'm still waiting for you to provide "an accurate timeline," though!


>I'm sure he was aware of James Brown...because like I
>said...by 1970 he was the most Famous Black man on
>Earth.....and surely in 1966 he was a hugely famous and
>successful Black American Artist....
>
>but James didn't know Fela in 1966....

...and?

My point has been that James Brown's music exhibited influence from Fela and other African musicians FROM 1971 ONWARDS.

Keep moving that goalpost, WC!


>>Fela didn't come to the USA to learn how to copy James
>>Brown... He was already doing that before.
>
>he knew about James brown ...hell.....who didnt...... but as
>they saying...seeing is believing.... Experieincing Black
>America at that time...experieicing the music of James Brown
>and Funk music's influence on urban America...and the quality
>of musicianship and showmanship associated with that....

Oh... So now you are going to provide me citations that illustrate that Fela actually saw James Brown live when he was in the US? Because I have NEVER heard any evidence for that.

Okay... Go ahead and prove to me that Fela actually saw James Brown in concert.



>So here we go..... We get to you real point. You honestly
>believe that James didn't influence Fela. It's all been a
>lie.....the musicals....the books ..the movies..the
>documentaries.....the articles...

I never said James didn't influence Fela. I said that the influence has been vast;y overstated.

And actually, any credible book or documentary reflects that.

The central text on Fela is Michael E. Veal's "Fela: The Life and Times of an African Musical Icon." And nowhere in that book does he suggest that James Brown exerted a heavy influence over Fela's creation of afrobeat. If anything, he makes more comparisons to Wayne Henderson and McCoy Tyner.

The next major book on Fela is Carlos Moore's "Fela, Fela: This Bitch of a Life." Again, nowhere in there does he say that JB was a heavy influence.

There is NO serious book on Fela that says this. NO documentary that says it.

The only people who say it are lazy and uneducated people like you.


>The idea that James Brown influencing Fela Kuti was just some
>ignorant Americans parrotting ignorant jorunalists...

Yep.

>that was my point from the begining...this alternative reality
>agenda is bogus...and people shouldn't buy into these false
>Anti-African American agenda..... It's so foolish muthafukkas
>will even act like James Brown didn't do shit.....

That was it comes down to for you, isn't it?

Some sort of weird insecurity that compels you to position the American negro as superior to all other blacks of the earth.

That's why you're making up these bullshit stories.


>So all the writers..... historians...... it's all been a
>lie....
>
>afkap has the truth....

Not just me... any writer or historian who deals with reality.


>Right.... Fela was in America...his future wife was a James
>Brown fanatic....

She was never his wife and it's never been written that she was "a James Brown fanatic."

FACTS!

he got into the autobiography of Malcom
>X....James Brown was the most famous Black man on planet
>earth....but no.... Fela was fukkin with Rashaan Roland Kirk
>and Freddie Hubbard....lol..
>
>right....

Yes.

>skipped right over james brown..

He left Nigeria to get away from James Brown.


>one of the initial things I hear....particularly on Ololufe
>Mi...which is one of my favorite Fela songs... ..... the use
>of the high hat starting at the 1:35 mark here
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJNxOiRJi8 until about 3:25
>...after the 2 horn solos..... I mean that is pure james
>brown....the whole structure of the song.......sing a
>verse...come to the bridge....during the bridge the drum stays
>on the high hat steady .....that would be the part where James
>Brown would bust a quick move..and then give it to
>fred....then maceo....or sinclair pickney....on the
>solo......but as james is grooving......Jab....and/or Clyde is
>killin the high hat..

LOL

Are you serious with that bullshit? James Brown invented that standard song structure?

LOL


>>LOL Come back and tell me that at the end of the year when
>my
>>peer-reviewed book drops, okay?
>
>
>right..... just like the movie right?? I'll check for
>it....

Nice one...


>>By the way, Fela was not even necessarily inspired by the
>>music of the Black Power movement as he was by the IDEOLOGY
>>AND CULTURE.
>
>can't disconnect the 2...sure you want to because it minimizes
>what these Black American legendary artists did....and the
>Black American movement....but no....disconnecting the 2 isn't
>remotely intellectually sound.

Hahahahahaa! So that's the new backdoor you're trying to push your argument through now?

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

but how come you provide no examples?
i am reading your counter-arguments and thinking "interesting" and then when i get to the end of it, i see no examples. maybe you don't have time to youtube it but no song names or album mentions?

you are doing a dis-service to anybody looking to LEARN something from this back and forth.

James Brown was an established artist with his own signature sound in 1970???

What example would I need to show you that when Fela came to America, James Brown was the most famous Black man on earth???

There are no youtube clips to show or prove that.

They are just simple facts that anyone who would be interested in this debate should know.

No youtube clips are needed for my argument. James Brown's influence was greater on Fela than vice versa because of the timeline.... and the facts of who saw/heard who and when...

**shrug** Google it if you don't believe me..lol.

The one in which you offered to post song examples from youtube when you had a chance before you edited into this "hot air".

>What example would I need to show you that when Fela came to
>America, James Brown was the most famous Black man on
>earth???
>
And Fela came to America as a blank slate?
Fela was definitely influenced by James Brown, I think you
1)overstate the JB influence because you may lack the context of the music Fela was playing and listening to before he discovered James Brown
2)minimize the influence that Fela's sound had on James Brown despite the accounts of at least two core band members.

My basic premise is this... When touring the area...Bootsy Collins and Dave Mathews, members of James Brown's band (Mathews was the musical arranger) visited Fela's club and heard his band play...

they said it was great...

So the Fela connection to James Brown is that a 19 year old kid who was James bass player for a year and a half, and Dave Mathews saw Fela and them perform live..

Regardless of what they heard....what they told James Brown after the fact...whatever...... I'm sure there was an indirect influence..

but that influence has been exaggerated by a lot of people....they do so to make the level influence equal...and it was not, plain and simple.

There is no reason for musical proof..... the idea that the BRIEF encounter Mathews and Boots had with Fela's music influenced James Brown to the same degree that James Brown's music influenced Fela during the TWO YEARS he was in America and immersed in the Black Power Culture...
___________________
1 night in a Lagos Night Club with 2 band members influencing the most famous and accomplished American Artist at that time


vs.

2 years in America by an African Artist who immersed himself in the Black Power movement...through his future wife Sandra Smith, who was a James Brown and funk fanatic...for a guy who had yet to fullfill his musical identity.

Those 2 things are not the same...they are not equal...and that is my point.

>1 night in a Lagos Night Club with 2 band members influencing
>the most famous and accomplished American Artist at that time
>
>
> vs.
>
>2 years in America by an African Artist who immersed himself
>in the Black Power movement...through his future wife Sandra
>Smith, who was a James Brown and funk fanatic...for a guy who
>had yet to fullfill his musical identity.
>

so this influence should be strong in the music right?
i'm curious which Fela Kuti songs do you think are indicative of a strong JB influence. it's not hard. do it like this:

1)Fela Song
2)JB Song
3)they are similar and here's why

Beyond the conjecture of he was in the states when James Brown was HUGE and he had an african-american girlfriend who was a funk fanatic...I used to date a girl who liked Avril Lavigne and not in an ironic way and A L was huge back then. no influence on me...lol

I also must be the only person in the world who doesn't really give a fuck about the beatles despite their larger than life presence in pop culture. You know who else was is in my timeline coming up? Ice Cube. A very influential to many but not to me and I was a rapping-ass hip-hop junkie. All this to say, you can't just conflate experience or exposure with influence.

But anyway I hope you can humor me with a little 1,2,3 as outlined above. Otherwise, I might have to conclude you're blowing hot air as far as claiming to be well versed in JB and Fela music and history.

RIP JDILLA
THE ILLEST THAT EVER DID IT

and opens the door for falsehood...

I'll give you an example.....

I could play a song that Jimi Hendrix played on while he was with the Isley Brothers....I could show you quotes from Jimi and others around him how he was influenced by Albert Kings, Johnny Guitar Watsons, Buddy Guys, Muddy Waters and the like. I could show you how Jimi's playing on those records is pretty much exactly the style that he was influenced by....

then another person could tell you how Jimi was influenced by british rockers. ..... They could play the same track that I play to prove it.

But what will be the distinguisher between truth and falsehood???

The timeline...

Jimi Hendrix was in America...fukkin with the blues cats...SAYING he was fukkin with them blues cats when he made that record with the Isley brothers...his playing style (and later his singing style) is completely copying Muddy Waters...... Yet someone will say that he was copying Pete Townsend or some other british pop-rock group...

the timeline and the direct quotes do not support that..

but anyone could play that Youtube clip and show you a similarity with Eric Clapton..and tell you THAT was the influence..and the clip would mislead you into believing a lie..

you have to have that historical factual base...that timeline.....that is where the truth is ....otherwise you got people like afkap who will mislead and promote a historical summary that is contrary to the factual timeline...

that promotes people with agendas just making shit up to support their bullshit....anti-Black American anti-Funk agenda....lol


facts...

reality....

truth....

accurate historical timelime...


We start there..

What kind of clown believes that posting concrete examples of something is "conjecture" while making up some phony "timeline" represents a devotion to fact? You see the buffoonery I've had to deal with for 10 years with this guy?

Coolidge, we're getting to the point where you're starting to piss me off and I feel like I should take the day off to dig through the archives and scan dozens of Nigerian newspapers and magazines from the 1960s to prove to you that Fela was exposed to James Brown BEFORE he went to the US... NOT after!!

I feel sorry for you, Coolidge. Because it seems you live in a perpetual haze of self-delusion in which your greatest nightmare is admitted that perhaps AFKAP is right. The fear of admitting this reality drives you to close your eyes to fact and shroud yourself in falsehoods.

I'm pretty sure that nothing I say will shake you from your self-induced stupor, but for the benefit of rational human beings who live in the real world of real facts, let me post some extracts from Fela's biography "This Bitch of a Life" (written by Carlos Moore, 1982) which I happen to have in front of me.

(I hate that I have to do this, but since we're talking about who is speaking fact and who is dealing with conjecture, might as well just end this decisively.)

Fela on his first exposure to James Brown and soul music:

http://i51.tinypic.com/70vz82.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/33ttnnp.jpg

Fela on how he got inspired in the US and what influences he drew on:

http://i51.tinypic.com/b6y3hk.jpg

Note that he mentions that the influence he drew upon to create his new beat was not James Brown, but Ambrose Campbell.

Ambrose Campbell was a Nigerian musician who moved to London in the 1940s and formed the first black band in the UK. He is considered one of the pioneers of black music in Britain and has been called "the Father of Modern Nigerian Music."

Here is an example of his sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4ltPTS94k

Okay... Coolidge. Those are just a few "facts" from my side.

Let's have YOUR "facts."

>There is no reason for musical proof..... the idea that the
>BRIEF encounter Mathews and Boots had with Fela's music
>influenced James Brown to the same degree that James Brown's
>music influenced Fela during the TWO YEARS he was in America
>and immersed in the Black Power Culture...

Oh, but there IS musical proof.

If you say one musician is influenced by another, it should be no problem to listen to the music and point out the obvious influences. People do that with Lenny Kravitz all the time. Or you can listen to D'Angelo's Voodoo and hear the Prince and other influences there.

Just show us the JB influences in Fela's work... that's all I'm asking.

Or maybe you can't, because you don't even know how to listen to music, you phony.

>2 years in America by an African Artist who immersed himself
>in the Black Power movement...through his future wife Sandra
>Smith, who was a James Brown and funk fanatic...for a guy who
>had yet to fullfill his musical identity.

LOL

WC... Here's a challenge for you: Find me ONE citation of Fela's girlfriend Sandra (she was never his wife) saying that she was "a James Brown and funk fanatic."

Just ONE, dude.

See how you make shit up? She has never NEVER said that. I'm not even saying that she didn't like James Brown and/or funk, but never has she said that on record. I don't recall that ever being written anywhere.

You know what? I have her phone number... I'll call her and ask her what she was listening to with Fela, if anything at all. From most accounts, they were mostly talking about politics and listening to African bands at the Ambassador Hotel. According to Fela, she was more into listening to African stuff than anything from America, which is part of the reason she was drawn to him in the first place.

See how you make shit up, you phony?

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Fela on the state of Nigerian music in 1968:

"Soul music took over. James Brown's music, Otis Redding took over the whole continent, man. It was beautiful music though, I must agree. I said to myself I must compete with these people. I must find a name for my music, so I gave my music "afrobeat" to give it an identity."

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influence him in making "afro-beat"

is that you LIED when you said "he was exposed to James Brown" when he went to LA in 1969... Because in fact, James Brown's music was all over Nigeria and he felt he needed to LEAVE the country to develop a new African sound!

I already posted another citation where he explains the fundamental influence when he developed afrobeat.

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>Sorry to rehash this topic over and over but gotta ask:
>
>Was Fela's sound more influenced by James or was it the other
>way around?
>
>
>Having this discussion with some older cats and they swear
>Fela took from James. Came to America, saw what JB was doing
>and took that shit back to Africa.
>
>
>
>educate, my fellow lessonheads.

I read that he was a avid listener to him when he was living in London. Maybe your post is correct as well.

>I read that he was a avid listener to him when he was living
>in London. Maybe your post is correct as well.

Fela was in London in the 1950s, before James Brown's ascent.

Also, Fela stated that he never ever heard soul music until 1966 when Sierra Leonean soulman Geraldo Pino came to Nigeria.

I believe this, because "white" rock & roll actually penetrated Nigeria several years before soul did, so people there were more into Elvis, The Beatles, Cliff Richard and the like before they were ever into Wilson Pickett or JB.

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>>I read that he was a avid listener to him when he was
>living
>>in London. Maybe your post is correct as well.
>
>Fela was in London in the 1950s, before James Brown's ascent.
>
>Also, Fela stated that he never ever heard soul music until
>1966 when Sierra Leonean soulman Geraldo Pino came to Nigeria.
>
>
>I believe this, because "white" rock & roll actually
>penetrated Nigeria several years before soul did, so people
>there were more into Elvis, The Beatles, Cliff Richard and the
>like before they were ever into Wilson Pickett or JB.

I stand corrected.

I live to serve!

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There is a strong James influence in some of his earliest (and little-heard) afrobeat singles of from 1970-72, but by 1973 he had really taken his sound in a different direction altogether. If any influence remained, it was more in terms of how the records were produced and mixed more than the actual composition and arrangements of the numbers.

Fela had a wide range of inspirations himself: the highlife music of Dr. Victor Olaiya, the jazz stylings of Miles Davis, and of course, Afro-Cuban music, which exerted a very, very powerful influence on musicians across Africa... an influence that far outstripped that of American music.

James Brown was himself influenced by these Afro-Cuban sounds, I might add. Almost every black musician in that era was.

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>James Brown was himself influenced by these Afro-Cuban sounds,
>I might add. Almost every black musician in that era was.

I'd also like to add to your post that some of the stuff that came from New Orleans made a huge impact among musicians back in the day as well.

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Here is the little-known Fela single "Beautiful Dancer," from 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCyVWBmbeso

You can hear a JB influence there, mainly in the rhythm pattern of the guitars. There's also that disjointed "Cold Sweat" quality to the bassline.

Now let's skip ahead a year to 1972's "Roforofo Fight"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_UDUO-Dzg

By now, afrobeat has developed its own rhythm and tempo.

Let's listen to the sort of sound James Brown had started to explore in 1971 and 72, with Lyn Collins' "Take Me Just as I Am":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s12mexd6fes

Notice the "African" rhythm pattern in the percussions and the hypnotic minimalism of the bass pattern (can't even call it a bassLINE) and how it compares to the Fela track.

Just for kicks, let's listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFWx1eqzSZA

and check out that African bass pattern again.

Or how about the very pronounced afrobeat feel in the piano here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXbl2BrUKP4

And then, as to the Andre Marie Tala thing I mentioned. Check out Tala's "Hot Koki" from 1973:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oC3bcDSLd4

and then let's listen to James Brown's "Hustle!!! (Dead on It)" from 1975:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EvaqFucx6w

And then someone's gonna be up in here talking shit he don't know about "The influence of African musicians on James Brown was minimal..."

el oh el

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Firstly...gotta say I kinda side with W Coolridge. I'm really only relying on my ears cause I've never read anything about Fela....but I agree with the sentiment that JB's influence is central to Fela's artistry. Any influence Fela had on JB is not 'central' to his sound.


>Here is the little-known Fela single "Beautiful Dancer," from
>1971:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCyVWBmbeso
>
>You can hear a JB influence there, mainly in the rhythm
>pattern of the guitars. There's also that disjointed "Cold
>Sweat" quality to the bassline.

One thing I've always noticed is that Fela's rhythms were more of a 'march' and JB's were more of a 'swing'. No positive or negative connatations intended by these characterizations.

For example...if you listen to the percussion on Beautiful Dancer...there's a 'ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum'. JB's would usually have a more dynamic kinda rhythm that doesn't emphasize every quarter beat. Less of a 'marching' or 'driving' kinda rhythm.

Another thing I've always noticed is that the snare drums on Fela's music very often hit the one. I know it sounds minor...but it's always been an immediate factor for me in indentifying Afro-beat stuff from American RNB.

So another characterization would be that in American RNB...the dynamics of the groove are usually mostly in the bass drum and the snare hits the twos and fours pretty regularly and solidly. In contrast....with Afrobeat, the dynamics are in the snare drum and the bass drum is the steady time-keeper. There's also alot more improvisation in the snare drum of Afrobeat whereas RNB drummers hit it the same way for every rep.


>Now let's skip ahead a year to 1972's "Roforofo Fight"
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_UDUO-Dzg
>
>By now, afrobeat has developed its own rhythm and tempo.

Yah...but the only thing that doesn't sound like it could be JB in that song is the drums and percussion which I already addressed. The bassline, guitars and horns all still sound like JB. In fact...Fela stole a sax lick from a JB song I can't identify right now in it (1:17).

>Let's listen to the sort of sound James Brown had started to
>explore in 1971 and 72, with Lyn Collins' "Take Me Just as I
>Am":
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s12mexd6fes
>
>Notice the "African" rhythm pattern in the percussions and the
>hypnotic minimalism of the bass pattern (can't even call it a
>bassLINE) and how it compares to the Fela track.

Not really. The only African thing I hear is the skulls (is that what that percussion is?) It's going 'ta - bo-ta-ta - bo - ta - bo - ta-bo'. But that kinda percussion rhythm is used in RNB lots. The bassline is blues....I'm not hearing any Afro-beat influence there at all. I'm not hearing what you're saying.

>Just for kicks, let's listen to this:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFWx1eqzSZA
>
>and check out that African bass pattern again.

But you're changing your stance here. We're talking about Afro-beat...not African music as a whole. Of course there is an African influence on gospel, blues, jazz, rnb, etc. But that bassline is very typically JB. He stripped down RNB...that was his sound. Made his musicians play repetitive and simple lines that served the dynamics of the rhythm. I'd agree this has roots in African tradition....but he created this sound before Afro-beat (or Fela) was around.

>Or how about the very pronounced afrobeat feel in the piano
>here?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXbl2BrUKP4

Again, this kinda rhythm has been around jazz and blues for a long time. It's got African roots, sure....but it's not evidence of Fela's influence on JB.

>And then, as to the Andre Marie Tala thing I mentioned. Check
>out Tala's "Hot Koki" from 1973:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oC3bcDSLd4

In concept and form...this song sounds like an African musician interpreting American rnb and rocknroll. Sorry....the horse pulls the carraige.

>and then let's listen to James Brown's "Hustle!!! (Dead on
>It)" from 1975:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EvaqFucx6w
>
>And then someone's gonna be up in here talking shit he don't
>know about "The influence of African musicians on James Brown
>was minimal..."

As Coolridge pointed out....the concept and form of JB's music was a huge influence on Fela. The structure of the band...the tones....the stripped-down song structures....the preaching singing style with minimal melody...it's all plain to see to me.

Fela's influence on JB would be more the kind where maybe the conga player listened to some Afo-beat and decided to use a similar rhythm on a newer JB song. If JB liked it....he could play it.

Not nearly the same.

rather than regurgitating some bogus "history," so I'm cool with that.

Let's go!

>Firstly...gotta say I kinda side with W Coolridge. I'm
>really only relying on my ears cause I've never read anything
>about Fela....but I agree with the sentiment that JB's
>influence is central to Fela's artistry. Any influence Fela
>had on JB is not 'central' to his sound.

Well, to be honest, my point was never about whose influence was "central" to whose "artistry," just that they influenced each other at various points.

But even then, I would question the whole "central to his artistry" bit... Like, if Fela had never heard James Brown would the music we know as afrobeat sound different than it does? Certainly!

But James was just one of a lot of different influences that went into creating the hybrid called afrobeat and I'm not sure I would position his influence at the center. Afrobeat is, after all, about... well, the BEAT. And the rhythms come from a completely different place than from where James was coming from.

>One thing I've always noticed is that Fela's rhythms were more
>of a 'march' and JB's were more of a 'swing'. No positive or
>negative connatations intended by these characterizations.
>
>For example...if you listen to the percussion on Beautiful
>Dancer...there's a 'ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum'. JB's
>would usually have a more dynamic kinda rhythm that doesn't
>emphasize every quarter beat. Less of a 'marching' or
>'driving' kinda rhythm.

I would agree with you if you are referring primarily to the rhythm of the trap drums but there's usually other rhythms being played on other percussion. And that's why I emphasize again that that dynamic rhythm is "central" to Fela's sound... not James Brown.

>So another characterization would be that in American
>RNB...the dynamics of the groove are usually mostly in the
>bass drum and the snare hits the twos and fours pretty
>regularly and solidly. In contrast....with Afrobeat, the
>dynamics are in the snare drum and the bass drum is the steady
>time-keeper. There's also alot more improvisation in the
>snare drum of Afrobeat whereas RNB drummers hit it the same
>way for every rep.

I would call this an accurate characterization. Pretty good analysis there!

>Yah...but the only thing that doesn't sound like it could be
>JB in that song is the drums and percussion which I already
>addressed. The bassline, guitars and horns all still sound
>like JB. In fact...Fela stole a sax lick from a JB song I
>can't identify right now in it (1:17).

You think the piano sounds like anything that James Brown was doing before 1971?

The horns? Sounds to me like stuff that James did from 1972 onwards... NOT before.

As for the sax lick at 1:17, I really don't know what you're referring to there... I don't hear it.

So what we're primarily left with is the rhythm guitar and *maybe* the bass, even though it's really James Brownian at all, if you listen. At least not pre-1972 James Brown.


>Not really. The only African thing I hear is the skulls (is
>that what that percussion is?) It's going 'ta - bo-ta-ta - bo
>- ta - bo - ta-bo'. But that kinda percussion rhythm is used
>in RNB lots. The bassline is blues....I'm not hearing any
>Afro-beat influence there at all. I'm not hearing what you're
>saying.

Alright, go ahead and give me an example of R&B from that era that utilized that rhythm. In this case I'm not even necessarily saying that it was swiped directly from Africa, as it could have been inspired by the neo-African sounds of Cuba. But I pointed it out to highlight an increased "Africanization" of JB's sound in the early 1970s vs the period before.

As for the bassline... that bassline is not blues at all.

How often in blues do you hear a bassline that is composed solely of TWO notes?

BUM-da-BUM, BUM-da-BUM-BUM-da-BUM-da-BUM BUM

I don't know... I'm trying to think of any blues with that pattern, and that resists any vertical movement throughout the song, except for on the bridge.

You hear the same sort of thing on "Hot Pants Road," which I also posted. The bassline again (at least in the verses) is just a minimal two notes:

BUM-BUM, da-da... BUM-BUM, da-da...

>But you're changing your stance here. We're talking about
>Afro-beat...not African music as a whole. Of course there is
>an African influence on gospel, blues, jazz, rnb, etc. But
>that bassline is very typically JB. He stripped down
>RNB...that was his sound. Made his musicians play repetitive
>and simple lines that served the dynamics of the rhythm. I'd
>agree this has roots in African tradition....but he created
>this sound before Afro-beat (or Fela) was around.

First of all, James Brown was not around before Fela (I think it's fair to say they started around the same time)... so be careful how you make statements about what James did before Fela was around.

Secondly, prior to 1967, James Brown's music was pretty conventional R&B... Not minimalist and repetitive at all.

James Brown in 1964:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDmfNOBGuo

James Brown in 1967:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5uIjy5RBVE

That record, "Cold Sweat" is generally considered the beginning of James' retooling of the way we think about music. But even then, it is not yet as minimalist as it would get in the early 70s... It still sounds fairly conventional.

I don't think I switched stances, though, because while Fela is at the crux of this discussion, right from the beginning I have talked about James borrowing directly from contemporary African musicians (which is why I brought up Andre-Marie Tala) as opposed to African retentions that can be found in African-American styles like jazz and gospel.

>Again, this kinda rhythm has been around jazz and blues for a
>long time. It's got African roots, sure....but it's not
>evidence of Fela's influence on JB.

Go ahead and post me an example that sounds as close to say, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJzL0yiRuQ

>In concept and form...this song sounds like an African
>musician interpreting American rnb and rocknroll.
>Sorry....the horse pulls the carraige.

The point is that James Brown directly stole Tala's record--not "was influenced by it"... STOLE it.

And the reason I posted it is because Warren and I have had this discussion in the past and he tried to argue that because there was no MTV and no Internet bak then, James could not have even have heard any of these African records, much less be inspired by them,

(As for the horse pulling the carriage... One of James' defenses when it came to pinching the music of African musicians was that they had all been inspired by him and so he viewed their work as a natural extension of his own which he was free to "take back" as he pleased.)


>As Coolridge pointed out....the concept and form of JB's music
>was a huge influence on Fela.

By "concept and form" you mean rhythm guitars and the foregrounding of the bass?

If that's what you mean by "concept and form," I agree... If not, then you need to offer a little more evidence to convince me.

> The structure of the band...

what "structure of the band" are you talking about here?

Seriously, could you clarify because I do not understand at all.

>the
>tones....

The tones? Fela's tone was distinctly more modal and minor-key than most of JB's material (though JB would do some pieces in that style in the early 70s), not to mention more jazz-based with a strong emphasis on long improvisations that James was not into.

What "tone" are you talking about?

>the stripped-down song structures....

maybe you should listen to some African pop music from 1930 onwards before you decide that JB taught Fela or any other African musician about "stripped down son structures"

>the preaching

I don't understand this either... Traditional African music tends to have a utilitarian focus and emphasis on moral lessons. And when was James Brown REALLY preaching?

"Say It Loud"... "Black President"... "King Heroin"...

James had some preachy songs but let's not act like it was a central part of his oeuvre or that it was something that was unique to him, even in R&B.

Curtis Mayfield, for instance, preached WAY more than James.

>singing style with minimal melody...it's all plain to see to
>me.

I'd give you this on the early 70s Fela singles like "Beautiful Dancer"... During that period, he was using a "shouty" style that could be viewed as a James retention. But that also has to do with the fact that he was singing in Yoruba, a tonal-based language whose rhythms are attuned for that kind of cadence.

By the time Fela started singing in pidgin English, he was using a much more relaxed delivery that fit the rhythms of that dialect.

Does this sound like James Brown to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQMXVlRCUQg&t=7m00s

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WjjKO5Omto

I don't hear James there at all.

>Fela's influence on JB would be more the kind where maybe the
>conga player listened to some Afo-beat and decided to use a
>similar rhythm on a newer JB song. If JB liked it....he could
>play it.
>
>Not nearly the same.

I never said that they were the same, but in any case I am going to need you to give me some elucidation on a bunch of the points you offered.

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and ended up repeating some of the stuff that you already said here...lol

something you touched upon that i definitely agree with:
the preachiness in fela's music is not as much a james brown influence as it is a black power influence that came from sandra be all up in his ear and giving him books to read. fela and james were drawing from the same well. and fela ended up going all the way with it, while james still kept love/sex songs as his mainstay.

RIP JDILLA
THE ILLEST THAT EVER DID IT

the James Brown that the world knew and that influenced both music and society.

Fela came to America and was influenced by a SOCIAL movement...and the music associated with that movement. He was influenced by a person who was indentified with that movement, who happened to be the most famous Black person on planet earth at the time, James Brown.

Fela returned to Africa, and became the Fela that the world knows today.

the influence was not equal.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (c)

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and devoid of that anti-Black American....and anti-Black American culture (both urban and otherwise) ....Anti-Funk... ....and the lack of actual experience and exposure to the like.....

all Warren Coolidge does is kick facts...

these two songs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2DxzDWMyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0efoS8SVGjI

Whenever I listen to them, I'm more convinced why the Afrobeat genre is considered as such a sample haven.

everybody took something from JB

elvis, beatles, fela, shit...creedence clearwater revival

PERIOD.

EVERYBODY.

if you sang something with soul...& screeched...if your voice ever broke on tape...thank JB

Nobody can take that away from him.

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what do you mean by this statement?
i neither agree nor disagree
i am unclear by what you mean lol

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

in Lagos and it counted as much...


come on player....

i got some comments to make but i'm at work
can't really formulate my thoughts but i'm loving this post so far.

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

Can anybody give insight into this?

They were in two different markets, far removed from each other, so there was no need for them to be rivals.

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Just remembered where I heard that. On Gilles Peterson's Fela special from like 5 years ago. Someone was talking with Tony Allen about why Fela and James Brown never collaborated and it was because the leaders of the two groups didn't want to acknowledge each other.

So maybe not rivalry in terms of album sales, but they were probably having this same debate to a certain degree.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

*with a few exceptions

He was cool with the likes of Ginger Baker, Roy Ayers, Sun Ra, Stevie, etc. but wasn't down with anybody who could be considered a direct rival on his own turf.

Fela did go on record many times saying that James Brow's music was incredible and totally fucked up his head the first time he heard it... but he resented the implication that James had been a huge influence upon him.



*ie African, specifically Nigerian

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Any insight into his relationship with Chief Osita Osadebe? Been listening to his stuff the past few months.

See...for me (who admittedly has only scratched the surface of Nigerian popular music)....to compare Osadebe to Kuti is indicative of how much influence JB had.

>Any insight into his relationship with Chief Osita Osadebe?
>Been listening to his stuff the past few months.
I love Osadebe's music but I doubt Fela paid much attention to highlife music by the time he came back to focus on his afrobeat sound. Also Osadebe's music was only very popular amongs the Igbos of Nigeria (especially because he rarely sang in English).

>See...for me (who admittedly has only scratched the surface of
>Nigerian popular music)....to compare Osadebe to Kuti is
>indicative of how much influence JB had.
I think you might be making a common mistake. It is one thing to hear similarities between something you are familiar with and something you are not. It is quite another to assume that there is a direct connection between the two. So for instance, the horn section that I assume leads you to make the JB comparison actually predates James Brown and is more a remnant of the colonial era where most musicians learned to play as part of army and police marching bands.
And the rhythm section is based on traditional ogene music.

>So for instance,
>the horn section that I assume leads you to make the JB
>comparison actually predates James Brown and is more a remnant
>of the colonial era where most musicians learned to play as
>part of army and police marching bands.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Didn't know that about the colonial era marching bands.

The horn arrangements in Afrobeat are actually NOT one of the features I thought were influenced by JB though. They definitely had more melody or clearly recognizable melodic lines. Also, the horns play a larger role in Fela's music....probly cause he played sax himself.

There's alot of JB songs where the horns have a small, minimal role.

I guess what I was trying to say....and again, I could be wrong. But if you listen to Osadebe as a rep for popular Nigerian music in the 60's and then listen to Fela Kuti as a rep for the late 60's/early 70's.....it seems like JB was the main factor in developing trends.

I realize I may be oversimplifying or misunderstanding the contexts of how things developed. That's just my impression.

reminded you of JB. cause i've heard that before.

btw which part of Osadebe's highlife music reminds you of JB or Fela Kuti?

I'm just curious cause I am always interested in how other people might hear music differently based on what they came up on.

To clarify....I don't think FELA's horn arrangements sound much like James Brown. There's alot of other elements that do though.

I definitely don't think there's ANY influence from JB on Osadebe's music. At least nothing I've heard.

The reason I brought him up was because AFKAP was talking about Fela's relationship with other Nigerian pop stars and how he kinda dismissed them. So I was curious if there was any relationship between those guys.

And the direction I was kinda going in with comparing Osadebe to Fela is the following:

Osadebe = Nigerian pop music before JB influence

Kuti = Nigerian pop music after JB influence.

I'll repeat that I have no idea if this is a fair characterization....just throwing it out there.

And I'd be a great guinea pig for perceptions of Nigerian music cause I have no contextual understanding of it. Only my ears.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw9T1UZvrcI

I should mention that this was record around 1967 or 68... Before Fela went to the US. So this idea of him "being exposed to James Brown in the US in 1969" is bullshit. James Brown was already ruling the roost in Nigeria and Ghana to the point that local highlife groups had to turn themselves into James Brown cover bands in order to keep their audience.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Loving it.

But doesn't it still serve Coolridge's point anyways?

JB's influence on Kuti is entrenched in his actual genre. The model/structure of the music. The instruments that the band played...the amp settings....the style....the concept.

Fela Kuti is not a pioneer of rnb...but JB is a figurehead in the afrobeat genre. It's a completely different kind of influence than incorporating a fela-inspired conga rhythm into your blues-funk song.