I mean it's cool 15 shared some insight on the workings of the road and all but the elephant in the room is the vast majority of hip hop acts don't know how to put on a live show... and in turn don't really deserve to make a living off touring. Your average hip hop show has more in common with a personal appearance than it does a real concert. R&B shows aren't much better since they started taking marching orders from hip hop a couple decades back. An entire generation has been born and come of age without knowing what a real live show looks like... just jumping up and down or putting a drum kit, guitar and keyboard on stage qualifies as phenomenal now *SMH* It's no wonder I see these young folks on the verge of speaking in tongues at a Prince show... a lot of them didn't even know shit like that existed inside the black music world.

The base fact is we have a genre that has failed to produce more than a handful of acts that are worth seeing live. It's all well and good to have a solid business plan... but as consumers we should be more interested in being entertained than marketed to.

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there's 25-30 acts worthy of seeing.

However....even with Rap's roots of being improvised and enjoyed live back in the NYC 80's...I still don't think it's enjoyed much when live.

98% of the times, aurally, the CD/album version sounds better than when artists do it live. Because of the electronic drums, samples, and random synth sounds, only a few songs sound better live than they do on record. And with singing, you can change it up and make it sound better, add flavor, etc. etc...with rapping, you can't do much besides changing the lyrics, which throws the crowd off. Yelling or giving it more energy is a risk and only works for certain artists and certain songs.

I rarely enjoy Rap concerts, which is why I only go if I have a connect..and it's usually just to be out, not to enjoy the music. Even folks I'm a fan of, like Luda, don't throw great live shows. Also, the whole "fuck you all!" attitude that rappers have makes it hard to engage the crowd in the same way, although some folks in the crowd enjoy this style.

------------------------------

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>there's 25-30 acts worthy of seeing.

I'd be real interested to see that list

>However....even with Rap's roots of being improvised and
>enjoyed live back in the NYC 80's...I still don't think it's
>enjoyed much when live.
>
>98% of the times, aurally, the CD/album version sounds better
>than when artists do it live. Because of the electronic drums,
>samples, and random synth sounds, only a few songs sound
>better live than they do on record. And with singing, you can
>change it up and make it sound better, add flavor, etc.
>etc...with rapping, you can't do much besides changing the
>lyrics, which throws the crowd off. Yelling or giving it more
>energy is a risk and only works for certain artists and
>certain songs.

exactly.... which is why I said it's time we look at the genre and not just the marketing.

>I rarely enjoy Rap concerts, which is why I only go if I have
>a connect..and it's usually just to be out, not to enjoy the
>music. Even folks I'm a fan of, like Luda, don't throw great
>live shows. Also, the whole "fuck you all!" attitude that
>rappers have makes it hard to engage the crowd in the same
>way, although some folks in the crowd enjoy this style.

Back in 86 I was juiced when the Raising Hell Tour came to Oakland. I had never been to a rap concert before that but since I was a huge RUN-DMC & Whodini fan I figured I'd enjoy the show. Didn't take very long to realize I couldn't have been more wrong. Since then I've taken my kids and nephew to a couple rap shows... and every instance they seemed let down with the actual show. It's just weird to me that you have a genre where even fans of the acts they go to see don't seem to really enjoy it all that much.
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>Back in 86 I was juiced when the Raising Hell Tour came to
>Oakland. I had never been to a rap concert before that but
>since I was a huge RUN-DMC & Whodini fan I figured I'd enjoy
>the show. Didn't take very long to realize I couldn't have
>been more wrong. Since then I've taken my kids and nephew to a
>couple rap shows... and every instance they seemed let down
>with the actual show. It's just weird to me that you have a
>genre where even fans of the acts they go to see don't seem to
>really enjoy it all that much.


I agree with your underlining premise....

But there's enough touring footage out there that proves Run DMC put on a damn good show....Hell, at times epic because remember they were competing at a time when the live band was the norm...And Whodini were always great live...

To me, those '80s and early '90s rap acts (but not that much...besides Tribe, Dela, that late '90s Chronic Tour and of course the Roots/Fugees, live 90's hip-hop took a nosedive) was entertaining live...certainly better than what we are seeing now...

To me the biggest indictment is what has happened to live R&B...or what we used to call R&B...It's more techno-pop now...It's not even cool today to be soulful without being deemed as doing "throw-back" music...What part of the game is that?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

>To me the biggest indictment is what has happened to R&B...or
>what we used to call R&B...It's more techno-pop now...It's not
>even cool today to be soulful without being deemed as doing
>"throw-back" music...What part of the game is that?


Yep. and not even 5 years ago, those of us who listen to Club Music got clowned for it. "what's all that Techno shit?!?!?"

(and of course, they called it ALL Techno...)


And the irony of it is, the shit these cats are making is AWFUL. Straight EuroJunk. All they had to do was come correct to cats like MAW, 4Hero, Osunlade, DJ Spinna, etc. You want some Soulful Dance Shit? THAT'S who coulda hooked you up. Not David Guetta.

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>But there's enough touring footage out there that proves Run
>DMC put on a damn good show....Hell, at times epic because
>remember they were competing at a time when the live band was
>the norm...And Whodini were always great live...

I'm sure they got better after I saw them since that was their first real taste of doing arenas... but I think a lot of the excitement from seeing an act like that comes from just seeing them more than what it actually sounds like. Whodini pretty much sounded just like the record but the problem is there really wasn't enough there to maintain a full show in the first place. It's one of the reasons I always enjoyed sets in smaller venues by cats like Egyptian Lover who incorporated their DJ into the show... it just adds another element to keep you entertained. It wasn't until Hammer came along that I saw a rapper put it all together and give a show that could stand side by side with the acts I grew up going to see. PE almost got there but they were still were more imagery than sound even at their peak.

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and I can count to more than five:

Atmosphere
Brother Ali
Evidence (i actually wasnt a fan of dude outside of dialate peoples til i saw him live)
The CunninLynguists
Pack FM
Blueprint
Macklemore

these guys are all in the independent crowd, so they may fly under a lot of radars (or you just may not enjoy their music, which is fine) but they all put on a hell of a show. I've also yet to go to a bigger rap show with more mainstream names (mainly cuz i live in ohio and dont have a car), so maybe you're talking about those types, but all these guys i've seen were great.

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i had to beat off all these emo hipsters at the show...wait.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

I mean with a band you'll get a drum solo, a cover version, a guitar solo, or maybe some improv.


With a Rap show ( especially if it's a solo artist) at MOST you'll get a medley of their shit and a new track or two. Rapping over pre-recorded tracks doesn't really lend itself to a lot of improvisation. Now do get me wrong, a LOT of acts make up for it with showmanship and theatrics( Public Enemy come to mind ). But for the MOST part?

you get a guy standing up there with a DJ who's plugged into a laptop. Some Tour DJ's don't do a DAMN thang but hit "play". Remember when the MC's would break the show down, and let the DJ do a battle routine during the show?

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In that there are very few acts that **REALLY*** put on a live show in front of thousands/ten of thousands. When I went to Rock the Bells back in 2007 this was really clear to me. The only ones who looked really comfortable up there were The Roots, Public Enemy, and maybe Cypress Hill. Wu-Tang Clan was pretty border-line. A lot of the hip-hop live shows that I've been to and loved over the past, say, five years would lose most if not all of their appeal in front of a crowd of 10,000.

And that's not only true of the new groups. Taking it back to Ice Cube: when I saw him in Oakland back in '90/'91, I thought it was the greatest live show I'd ever seen. But there was like 2,000 max at the Kaiser that night (dunno if you remember the audience size better, since you were there too). Then I saw him and Da Lench Mob at the Warfield in '93, and again, it was amazing, but also in front of 2,000 max. Then I saw him a few months later at Summer Jam in front of like more than 20,000, and a lot of it fell flat. Then I caught him on the Smoking Grooves Tour in 2000, where he had all sorts of stage props and bells and whistles... and it REALLY sucked. A lot of MCs don't have and don't bother to get the training to really move a crowd of that size.

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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I agree. As I said above some of the better hip hop shows I've seen were in clubs... hip hop was never really meant for areas imo.

>And that's not only true of the new groups. Taking it back to
>Ice Cube: when I saw him in Oakland back in '90/'91, I thought
>it was the greatest live show I'd ever seen. But there was
>like 2,000 max at the Kaiser that night (dunno if you
>remember the audience size better, since you were there too).


2k sounds about right... maybe more like 1800.
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With the small venues, I've thoroughly enjoyed myself and felt the artist/group put on a good live performance. Some had live bands, some two turntables, some off a laptop. I don't believe you have to have a band to put on a great live show. It really depends on the type of music.

Little Brother
Foreign Exchange
Jurassic 5
Dilated Peoples
Lupe
Red & Mef
Kweli
Mos Def
Common
Blueprint
Atmosphere
DOOM (before the shenanigans)
De La Soul

These are just off the top and who I've seen myself, but I thought they did a good to excellent job.

As for larger venues, I've seen The Roots, plus Kanye and Jay-Z (the latter two on their current tour and each separately). And also Erykah Badu, since some posters were mentioning singers. They all in their own ways know how to manage large venues.

__
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I disagree with that one

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i consider them to be one of the best acts i've seen (seen em twice i think).

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to me, paying $20 to see my favorite underground mc perform for an hour to an audience of 200 is TOTALLY worth it.

i saw sage francis here in sac last spring. he came out, excited the crowd, rapped with his laptop (no dj), did his classics, we all sang along, interacted with the crowd, and spent some time afterwards hanging out.

aesop rock, rob sonic, wiz, same thing.

i don't care about seeing a live instrument, or some masturbatory guitar solo at a show. or even some freestyle that made no sense but gets "ah!"s from the crowd when a semi-clever punchline is delivered.

i wanna be moved in some way. or connected to the performer.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

>to me, paying $20 to see my favorite underground mc perform
>for an hour to an audience of 200 is TOTALLY worth it.

Thing is if more people felt like that it wouldn't be $20 nor in front of that small an audience.

>i saw sage francis here in sac last spring. he came out,
>excited the crowd, rapped with his laptop (no dj), did his
>classics, we all sang along, interacted with the crowd, and
>spent some time afterwards hanging out.

Classics? No snark but it sounds more like you were just really into the cat than someone that was won over by the show.

>i don't care about seeing a live instrument, or some
>masturbatory guitar solo at a show. or even some freestyle
>that made no sense but gets "ah!"s from the crowd when a
>semi-clever punchline is delivered.

>i wanna be moved in some way. or connected to the performer.

Some people don't know what it is they are looking for until they get it. Some of the best shows I've ever been to are by artists I was lukewarm on seeing only to have them win me over after they hit the stage.


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>Thing is if more people felt like that it wouldn't be $20 nor
>in front of that small an audience.

yup. but it was worth it for us 200!

speaking of which, you're in sac? that show was at ace of spades, which used to be icon. the roots played there a few years back. so did TVOTR. i fuckin missed both! snoop came through there too recently. that little place gets some acts that are bigger than that venue.

>Classics? No snark but it sounds more like you were just
>really into the cat than someone that was won over by the
>show.

yeah, maybe should've put quotes around "classics".

but i did bring my friends who aren't sage stalkers like me, and they were into it.

>Some people don't know what it is they are looking for until
>they get it. Some of the best shows I've ever been to are by
>artists I was lukewarm on seeing only to have them win me over
>after they hit the stage.

NERD's live show surprised me and won me over when they opened for kanye. i didn't realize how much their shit knocks until i saw it in that arena setting.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

you're in sac bro? I've bumped the D'angelo tape for a while & didnt even know you were from the area

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With that here today, gone today climate they don't have time to work out a good show

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

As far as young acts, u have to take into consideration that the music is electronically based, meaning their producers don't even really know how to play music (or even spin vinyl)...and the music is catered to succeed on the tv/computer screen and disco techs, not on stage, not for concert goers.

How is a song where the whole rhythm track is just an 808 looping for 4 bars supposed to translate on stage?

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Sucka MC's? I ain't no joke? Paper thin? Love's gonna get ya? Peter Piper? Etc etc....it's similar to what I said earlier...Rap production has never been translatable to a live show. G-Funk and West Coast music, along with some of the sampled East Coast, is probably the only style that has potential to sound better live because of the live instruments and some of the synths that can be played live.

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if you can't play live but want uber credit for your records, you're nothing more than a magician who can pull his tricks off on TV but fucks them up in front of an audience

not the top 40/BET rappers. they don't have to because they don't need to have live musicians. their music is electronic based. but they do need to "perform and market" their songs on stage. they SHOULD at least have a DJ...it can even be a serato dj, and a keyboard player...i'll even take a midi player. throw in a guitar player for the white folks in the crowd, too. that's it! with today's production values you can do whole rap albums with only 3-4 people on stage, live.

it won't sound that great but at least it's live: the 3 would have to rehearse the live set together, and must be in sync with each other on stage.

....but then again OKPs get off on erykah badu tapping out 808 beats with a drum machine on stage.

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The roots
public enemy
Mos def
Common
Outkast
Jay z
Kanye
Run dmc
Ll cool j
De la soul
Gang starr
Jurassic 5
Q tip
Tribe
Cypress hill
Chino xl
Beastie boys

************************************************************

>The roots
>public enemy
>Mos def
>Common
>Outkast
>Jay z
>Kanye
>Run dmc
>Ll cool j
>De la soul
>Gang starr
>Jurassic 5
>Q tip
>Tribe
>Cypress hill
>Chino xl
>Beastie boys

how i forgot krs

************************************************************

on any live hip hop list...but u ran in to list the roots tho


LOL

------------------------------------
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be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

just random order

************************************************************

it's just karaoke at that point, except performed by the original artist. I get the economic ramifications of not playing with a full band, but you'd better be a special dude to show up with just yourself and your DJ. So played.

rapping over your own DAT with the vocals and/or having your boys finish every other bar is wack (as are lots of other things associated with some mainstream and/or underground hip-hop shows nowadays but they're mostly avoidable if you know who's worth seeing & who isn't).

But a good MC (or group if they're any still left) can certainly rock over a DJ & put together a real show from that.

and I can't think of a single DJ show that was better than the live band shows.

(not even trying to be on some one-up shit, just giving a rough estimation based on how many shows I've seen plus I think I'm probably a good five years older).

Having a band is not a prerequisite for good live hip-hop, particularly for acts who don't actually use live instrumentation on record.

Sometimes that thumping bass rumble off a turntable that you can feel in your chest is exactly what a fan of this shit wants to hear & sets the proper template for the right MC to rock over.

Run-DMC is not better with a band then they were with Jam Master Jay.

Comm's Electric Circus show I saw with just him & DJ Dummy sonned the one he put on with Black Girl Named Becky from around the same era.

Mos Def's debacle of a live-band experiment early on was not better than his show with a DJ from the Lyricist Lounge era.

KRS still rips a stage alone off two turntables.

Kast's 'band' did absoultely nothing to improve their live show (in some cases I'm not even sure they were plugged in).

The list can go on & on.

It depends on who you're seeing, what role the musicians actually had in the creation of the music along with whether or not they're actually good, how tight the MC is, whether they're using live turntables or a DAT if there's not a band, etc.

My disagreement with your post was acting like you couldn't put on a quality show with an MC & a DJ when the reality is that how this shit originally started & it still comes off when you're talking about people who do it right.

I mean I don't need a DJ at a Roots show but I also don't necessarily need a band to hear *insert top-shelf MC here* put on a quality show either.

Depends who you're talking about & it ain't that hard to figure out who'd be worth seeing versus who wouldn't.

Mobb Deep still don't seem like they'd be worth my money live but I've heard Clipse might be.

Dudes who came up off mixtapes like 50 in 02/03 without ever paying dues in small venues aren't gonna all the sudden come off when they become arena-tour big a year later.

Totally agree

u dont like rap music

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I'd say seeing him, with a live band, is one of the best acts to see out of any genre.
The first time I saw him was back in 2007. I made a post about how incredible a performance it was given it was just him and his hype man. It was around the time '300' was released in theaters. He kept talking about how he felt like a Spartan, just acting crazy and having a good ass time on stage and it showed. Most of the audience knew him from Kick Push and probably wasn't expecting such a great performance.

Since then, I've seen Lupe 3x, each with a live band, and each has been just a memorable. If he changes up the style of a song, it's for the better (not like Badu). He remembers the words to his own songs unlike Blu (4 times and Ive thankfully never seen him cover a Tribe song). He performs at large festivals, college tours, clubs and arenas. Lu can do it all, one of the most versatile emcees in the game.

I'd also add that Little Brother on that Minstrel Show tour absolutely tore it down when I saw it in Northhampton, MA of all places. Phonte is still one of the best live rappers period.

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I've been to a lot of hip-hop shows and festivals and very few of them have come close to touching lupe...I just saw him for like the fifth time a few weeks ago in Oakland and was blown away even though I'd seen him so many times before...his show just keeps getting better and better

The best concert I've ever been to:
Beastie Boys

Outstanding:
Tribe
The Roots
Jurassic 5
Method Man & Redman

Great:
Raekwon
Kanye
Cypress Hill

Good but not really all that memorable:
RZA (seen him twice, first time was cool, second time was awful)
Wu-Tang (w/6 members)
Common
Kweli
De La
Nas
Pharoahe Monch

-
Gang Starr / Nujabes blend - https://youtu.be/lsci1vu6ick
DOOM Tribute - https://youtu.be/qmBQ2BDefKM
Donut of the Heart cover in Javascript - https://youtu.be/afLc2CkC8lk

>The best concert I've ever been to:
Beastie Boys


absolutely INSANE live show when they do the 3 hour tour...

mixmaster mike is like the jamband of djs, every nite its diff, he drops the HEAT under the boys and they dont miss it, they get stoked and makes them rhyme the verses even harder.

crazy switchups

crazy energy

and the stoney Meters funk jams are awesome live. Money Mark is a beast on the keys

Also one of, if not THEE best show ive ever seen.

Beastie Boys at the Electric Factory - 800 people- the Monday nite before Hello Nasty came out Summer 1998.

Best show i ever saw.

and Ive seen about 1000 shows. Literally.

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"...shocked the small axe could knocka giant lopsided" (c)Pretty Flaco

There's a lot of great Hip-Hop about, you've just got to look past the big media outlets and check out the blogs and the pirate radio stations. I can name plenty of sick artists.

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and?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

gotta love it.

POEM-CEES
KOKAYI/CAESARZ
SPP WAXWORKS (DC)

THAYLOBLEU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=701fChgN9H4

without the snob factor.

https://twitter.com/DJDanSpeak

https://soundcloud.com/dan-speak/the-voyage-mix?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=twitter

so far i am getting (in no particular order):

live band

some decent freestyles

a remix or two

maybe a cover or two

a decent dj

interaction

dancers, guess that is why old school groups had dancers, something visual.

possibly diversification of sound (other genres)


anything else?

Yelawolf (From Alabama, but gigs here regularly, cut his teeth here)

Spree Wilson - Plays his arse off, knows how to present a show and how to rock a crowd even if their cold to his material.

B.o.B (Front on his music if you want because of his album strategy but he's talented and is live show is crazy)

Big K.R.I.T - Energy. (He's a Mississippi rapper with his base of operations here in ATL, from what I can tell). Big Sant might be the best hypeman I've seen in this era.

INDEED - They're not the most lyrical group and they're still finding their footing but the live show is crazy. Ricky Fontaine is a performer. You know them as the other members (headlined by DJ Burnone) of the 5 points production crew

Killer Mike - Again, ENERGY.

Hollyweerd - They don't perform that often anymore and might have actually broken up. I dunno. But their live show is crazy.

Travis Porter - The music isn't a niche I expect to be embraced here but these cats made their brand by performing live anywhere that would have them from card parties and highschool half time shows to hood clubs. Their live show is a reflection of this.


Count Bass-D - The only drawback for him is that not enough people know his songs. That kind of kills it for me. The energy of the crowd itself isn't where it needs to be.

Collective Efforts - Their band is crazy. The stage show itself isn't the greatest in the world but their band and the way they Jam-band their catalogue up really is something to experience.


2CHAINZ - Energy. Plus he's a vet so he knows how to work a stage, keep it balanced.
Back in the day he didn't have enough "hits" to make what he does work, I think.
Now it's different. People know the songs so he isn't just up there walking around, he's interacting with the audience.


Pastor Troy - Haha. Man. FUN. Period. FUN.


Kilo Ali - He's getting old and can't move like he used to in some regards but he's still got good prescence, his voice holds up on the sing-songy songs and he brings out old-school A-town dancers = WIN.



I could go on. Some young cats are coming up that are figuring their ish out right now.

There are some underground groups that would probably be salty for not being included but they're too hit or miss.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>There are some underground groups that would probably be salty
>for not being included but they're too hit or miss.

Grand Prize step all over 80% of that list. Don't believe me? We're at Highland Ballroom on the 10th.

Jordan!

I work weekends now. You won't see me out there.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

we ripped East Side Lounge last night tho. we're atl's best kept little secret I guess.

Jordan!

I'm surprised no one has mentioned him because he's a damn good performer.

Yep I went to a Busta concert a few years ago and he put on a great show.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2545286&mesg_id=2545286&page=81#2602496

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it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

I feel like a lot of old school rappers had a lot better shows because even before they took the stage they would have a DJ come out and work the crowd into a frenzy. And not just playing the artist's song. Just playing the bangers. At that point the artist can come out and as long as he is having fun and interacts with the crowd, most people will feel satisfied. Throw-in a couple of freestyles, a guest appearance and rhyming over some jacking for beats sessions, and folks will call it a great show.



But last few shows I have seen their has been no DJ presence. What's up with that?



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the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.

the best live rappers come from the mid 80s (run dmc, ll, pe, etc) cos the music was better suited to live shows back then - a lot more energy.

since the music slowed down, its not as good live.

there are still good live shows from rappers, but its more to do with them having a good/hot song and seeing them cos of who they are on stage, than what they do exactly on stage. but for every busta, who has stage presence, and knows how to put on a show, most rappers dont give a shit about the live show (it took wu-tang what, about 15 years before their shows started getting good?).

dividing the audience into two halves is boring now. so is being asked to throw your hands in the air.

im ok with it being studio music though.

>im ok with it being studio music though.

But the problem is it's drastically "lowered the bar" (c) warren, for live black acts.

good post btw


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have people that like them but would tell you they aren't really all that good live. If I throw out a list like this...

Prince
MJ
Stevie Wonder
James Brown
Earth Wind & Fire

how many of their fans are really going to argue about them being good live or not?

The entire idea of what makes a rapper good live is far more subjective than a traditional act... hell what makes a good rapper period. You don't see us arguing about Marvin being a good singer the way we do Pac being a good rapper.
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Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

cos the people you mentioned had their time decades back.... stevie and prince are still good today, but the rap equivalents of EWF (who arent what they were) etc, would be PE, LL, run dmc, and a bunch of other old schoolers from that era...

"R&B shows aren't much better since they started taking marching orders from hip hop a couple decades back"

This is what I'm saying... the entire body of black live shows has been falling off since folks started looking to hip hop. Hip Hop can't lead on that front they way past genres could.

In less than 70 years we went from this http://youtu.be/_8yGGtVKrD8

to this http://youtu.be/lmuBz9notgU

anyone that wants to tell me those two clips are of an equally artistic level can go right ahead. Personally I think it's self evident enough to not even have to argue the other side.

That said there are still good live R&B acts... just not in the numbers they used to be... and that's the real shame.
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Reunion Radio Podcasts
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But I get your point anyway.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

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Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

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thats just the way R&B was going *anyway*, no?

but im sure i dont need to tell you that

when Rafael Cameron came to Nigeria with Positive Force around 1983 or 84 and the place erupted in a riot because his performance was so generally poor and he was lipsynching... He had to issue a public apology for that.

And in the late 70s/early 80s, groups like Shalamar were already lipsynching or singing over tracks. Hell, that shit was already happening by the mid-70s... Not as prevalent as it is now, obviously but it's really unfair the way people always pin on hip-hop when in fact hip-hop had to adapt to the reality that was already occurring.

(Nelson George dramatizes this in his novel Seduced, btw...)

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>(Nelson George dramatizes this in his novel Seduced, btw...)

I keep seeing him pop up in things I've been watching.

in a way you couldnt have predicted in the 90s. i doubt if even someone like r kelly would do the full band thing if international audiences didnt want it, and if there wasnt more need in recent years to deliver more of an 'experience' so people can see theyre getting something special when they go to a show, but with sales down, its made more R&B acts and rappers get live bands, which - whether theyre any good or not - *has* brought back a certain tradition to the modern black music show... id like to think its cos of the roots but i dont see it (no dis to quest)

I knew at the time her popularity was the sign of a lowing of standards... I mean the girl came out sampling and struggled vocally live. This period you're talking about right here is the transition period I was talking about. It's when we got an influx of Hip Hop influenced R&B acts.
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of standards

Because the pre-existing standards in R&B had been pretty low at that point anyway.

Mary may not have been the best vocalist but she brought an energy that had been missing and helped make R&B interesting for young people again. She brought a rawness and depth of feeling that transcends technical virtuosity.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

shit was flat out awful... and I wasn't the only one walking out of there who thought that. The fact she has as many devoted fans as she does is about as good an example of lowered standards as there is.
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but to complete disregard how she re-energized R&B, which before that time was becoming an old folks genre... that's short-sighted, I think.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

The Kardashians "re-energized" The E network but are we really going to say they moved it forward quality wise?
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When did "moving forward" emerge as a major indice in this conversation?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

"I've never bought the idea that Mary represented a lowering "

There are only 3 options

either someone raised the bar, lowered it or it stayed the same

saying someone "re-energized" something has nothing to do with actually moving it forward, backwards or sideways.
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Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

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is definitely a significant thing.

I'll leave you to decide whether or not it constitutes moving forward, backwards or sideways but I will say this: Jazz has moved forward considerably over the past 30 -some years... but that has corresponded with a declining interest in jazz.

What good is all the artistic forward movement if nobody cares to listen?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali