(in other words, this is gonna be a long read)

As much as we bemoan the current state of mainstream, major label R&B, whether it's because it sounds like hip-hop with marginal singing over it, or that the lyrics are decidedly "Tyler Perry", or that in some cases, it's devolved into some '90s Euro Citroen Saxo Music... I have to wonder, if it's at all worse than what was happening in the 1980s after about 1983 or so.

Now, there is no denial about who the 3 most popular Black solo artists were in this era: Michael Jackson, Prince, and Lionel B. Richie. Each got to their particular height in different ways: Michael finally realizing the potential of the complete package of music, Prince took a decidedly more underground route before going pop, Lionel built good faith over several years bringing the money tracks to the Commodores before taking it to the stage alone.

Now, one would figure that record labels would jump at the chance to duplicate that success as much as they could with everyone they signed. It's oft noted that once you have artists this popular, they tend to dictate the popular sound of the day. Much pop music tried to sound like Prince's stripped down, synthesized aesthetic, whilst trying to capture the "all-encompassing" glare and accessibility of Michael Jackson, and at times, reach over unconventional aisles like Lionel Richie.

I could list all of the music that ripped Prince and/or MJ off in the early to mid '80s, and going after Allen A. Jones's take on both artists alone would have us sitting here until 2018. Lionel's influence was oft heard on songs like Dynasty's "The Only One", and the B.B.&Q. Band's "The Things We Do In Love" among others... the ballad that reached across a more "country-fied" aisle that Lionel helped popularize in R&B music (but I believe Bobby Womack among others might have pioneered).

There was the flair for crossover that each had, in different ways. Each artist could sing a song that was considered "atypical" for R&B radio at the time, and still make it sound like they were at home. A large part of this were their individual influences as artists. For others, this just didn't work. Largely, because it sounded like some sort of forced assimilation.

The reason I say "forced" is because despite the fact that Black artists like the above mentioned, Rick James, and others were selling records in the millions...they still had to fight very hard in the 1980s to get played on Top 40 radio or promoted otherwise, and we all know the struggle some Black artists that didn't fit MTV's decidedly WMMS-esque rock format. Recording companies, oft clueless when it came to Black music, saw the success of the Big Three as a means to move some square peg artists into round holes, in a very segregated musical promotion landscape.

That was the 1980s for you: besides being known as the age where Ronald Reagan, Marge Thatcher, and the Soviet Union (and crack) reigned supreme, for Black folks coming out of the 1970s, it was the age of assimilation. Many moved to a more competitive slot in the middle class in the decade, and as tastes became more elegant accordingly, the somewhat freeing, gritty sounds that defined the decade earlier became more more sophisticated as the 1970s came to and end. By the mid-'80s, this had been moved into a more assimilating climate, as the stars of the '70s had gotten older, and younger stars aspired to be more like those who had broken the mold on their own terms.

The result? We have the Commodores making music that sounded like score outtakes from the Last Dragon, Carrie Lucas turning in an album whose title track reminds me of the theme song of a TV sitcom produced by the folks at Embassy Communications, jabronis dressing in wallpaper patterns and conking their hair at a rate rivaling the 1950s, and by 1986, even Luther Vandross, guardian of "deep R&B" he was, had been bitten by the "soundtrack" bug and had removed some of the "deeper" elements from his songs.

Sure, both the youth and the "elder brigade" had signature albums and singles that sidestepped this trend... but as the '80s neared closure, it took New Jack Swing to finally shake mainstream R&B out of being "Routine & Beige".

The funny thing about this, is with a lot of mainstream R&B often sounding like it needs to "mach schnell with the artwork" nowadays, I'm often reminded of the trends of some 25+ years ago. "OMG" would have been right up there with the Micki Free era of Shalamar. And while I think Top 40 is much more integrated than ever before, I do often wonder, if it's really on the merits of the artists, or was it by design? What'll be the next shake up?

>The result? We have the Commodores making music that sounded
>like score outtakes from the Last Dragon, Carrie Lucas turning
>in an album whose title track reminds me of the theme song of
>a TV sitcom produced by the folks at Embassy Communications,

Great post and great topic for discussion, by the way.

I see one flaw in the comparison between 80s "beige" black music and today's "orange spray-tan" black music.

Today, we have no leaders.

As you said, the beige era occurred mostly as a result of labels trying to turn all their black artists into MJ, P****e or L.B. Richie.

Today who are the models that are inspiring this crappy Ibiza-style pop? Certainly nobody in the black music world! Hell, I don't think you can even point t any white artist who is the king or queen of the scene. It's just as generic as if it had all been cranked out of some music processor machine.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Today who are the models that are inspiring this crappy
>Ibiza-style pop? Certainly nobody in the black music world!
>Hell, I don't think you can even point t any white artist who
>is the king or queen of the scene. It's just as generic as if
>it had all been cranked out of some music processor machine.

I mean, if it's one thing if cats turned on the 96Wave or whatever they go to to hear "alternative rock" and were making music based on that motif

but I just don't see where the collective muse is coming from. I don't know if I should deter this into "Bammer"-esque dogma, but that "processor machine" really does sound familiar...

but even when our R&B was being made by Europeans behind the scenes (see: the Petrus brain trust groups like Change et al), it sounded JUST like the R&B that came out of New York, and with New York scene singers fronting the music, no one (except the liner note readers) was ever the wiser.

Traditionally, music trends tend to follow one or another development coming from some area of "the street"... I don't know where the techno-pop shit is coming from. Maybe from some trashy Hollywood clubs stanking of peroxide, silicone, hair gel and Persian ecstasy dealers.

If anything, I'd say the current black pop is more inspired by 80s hair metal and the Sunset Strip scene.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

There are indie R&B acts, but it feels to me like there's no touring circuit for them. They might be moderately popular locally, but no one's buzzing about them outside that limited area. I lived in Columbus (OH) for years, and there's a soul singer named Middlechild there. I'm 90% positive she couldn't even do a gig in Cleveland. I look at the roster of acts at the House of Blues in Cleveland -- there are NO R&B acts scheduled at all. Lots of those white folk-rock acts, and some comedy. NO R&B. It puzzles me that that's the case at a venue called the "House of BLUES."

I'd *like* to blame it on radio -- but those white folk-rock acts I've never heard of aren't getting 1000 spins on AAA radio (ok, maybe some of them are & I just don't know lol). Simple fact is, as you said elsewhere recently, there isn't a market for live R&B acts right now (I'd add "unless they've sold 500,000 records or are named 'Eric Roberson'"). The space has to be opened up.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

>There are indie R&B acts, but it feels to me like there's no
>touring circuit for them. They might be moderately popular
>locally, but no one's buzzing about them outside that limited
>area. I lived in Columbus (OH) for years, and there's a soul
>singer named Middlechild there. I'm 90% positive she couldn't
>even do a gig in Cleveland. I look at the roster of acts at
>the House of Blues in Cleveland -- there are NO R&B acts
>scheduled at all. Lots of those white folk-rock acts, and some
>comedy. NO R&B. It puzzles me that that's the case at a venue
>called the "House of BLUES."
>
>I'd *like* to blame it on radio -- but those white folk-rock
>acts I've never heard of aren't getting 1000 spins on AAA
>radio (ok, maybe some of them are & I just don't know lol).
>Simple fact is, as you said elsewhere recently, there isn't a
>market for live R&B acts right now (I'd add "unless they've
>sold 500,000 records or are named 'Eric Roberson'"). The space
>has to be opened up.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
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one of the 3 times i saw him, he opened for dwele (which upset me lol). another time he was doing a now-defunct concert series in cbus that featured him, fertile ground, maybe goapele. if you search any of them except erro on ticketmaster, you get zero results. of course, erro has hustled like no other to get his career poppin'. the man is getting grammy nods now, when 15 years ago he was a no-hit wonder. who else is getting their grind on outside the label system, or at least grinding tourwise thru the label system?

i'd like to chalk up my ignorance to living in ohio for almost 8 years, but it seems deeper than that. revolution75 nails it in his reply below....cats is scared. & they ain't on their grind.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

can you imagine what we have to go through???
Even Stevie Wonder couldn't sell out Cleveland but Genesis did......

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

>can you imagine what we have to go through???

oh man. i am here in cleveland now as well. i thought the music scene here would be better than cbus! question: have you ever heard of/been to the house of swing? i always drive by it & wonder if the acts there are any good.

>Even Stevie Wonder couldn't sell out Cleveland but Genesis
>did......

oh but the janet world tour kicked off in cuyahoga falls! lol. i saw a poster for that a couple weeks ago in DC & was perplexed. cuyahoga falls? really?

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

>oh but the janet world tour kicked off in cuyahoga falls! lol.
>i saw a poster for that a couple weeks ago in DC & was
>perplexed. cuyahoga falls? really?

...Cuyahoga Falls?! TFOH.

I would have believed Lakewood if they had the venue *ducks x2* but Cuyahoga Falls? F-O-H.

like, seriously... that's a LOL (Location) LOL place if I've ever been to one.

me & my boy were walking past a store that sells random memorabilia & saw that in the window:

janet world tour kick-off
cuyahoga falls, ohio
january 3, 1994

we both had the exact same reaction you just did: what in the entire hell....?!

i just wiki'd it though. apparently it was the 2nd leg of the janet. world tour and it was at the richfield coliseum. so UTTERLY freaking random. also while wiki'ing, i discovered that cleveland only JUST became a majority black city as of the 1990 census. i thought it was a blacker city than that for much longer. it's a fair enough explanation for why the city's scene isn't as deep as i thought it would be.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

ok... 1994... THAT makes sense. @ the Richfield Coliseum makes sense because that's where a lot of the stuff was at. Nowadays, that might be at "The Q".

>i just wiki'd it though. apparently it was the 2nd leg of the
>janet. world tour and it was at the richfield coliseum. so
>UTTERLY freaking random. also while wiki'ing, i discovered
>that cleveland only JUST became a majority black city as of
>the 1990 census. i thought it was a blacker city than that for
>much longer. it's a fair enough explanation for why the city's
>scene isn't as deep as i thought it would be.

yeah. the west side used to be a lot more populous than it is now.

It was the coliseum
I was @ that show!!! Even rapped with Jimmy Jam!!
....Blossom Music Center is in the falls
The Coliseum was the big venue place to perform in Cleveland until the Q came in and they tore it down.
I saw my first Prince concert in 83 there along with the Purple Rain tour the following year.

Like i said in the previous post its not like Cleveland and the surrounding area only supports the rock and roll/country acts. Its just that's where it seems the $ is at these days.

These acts even if they're not getting airplay will sell out venues such as the HOB. Why? Because there's alternative methods for promoting these artists and their fans support them wholeheartedly.

Promoters look at the $$ and they book their acts accordingly.

If Cleveland was a market for these acts, then they would book them.

The majority of acts (even mainstream) skip Cleveland these days when back in the day, that was a rare occurrence.

Foreign Exchange was here last year (on a sunday @ the grog) and there was more people at my aunt's bday party

sheeit when was the last time that Erykah Badu been to Cleveland?

If they dont promote these artists on TJMS or Baisden, the majority of folk won't know about them.


......and most folk aint gon go the extra mile to look for good music.

I can't count the times i tried to hip folks to stuff i think they would dig.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

>If Cleveland was a market for these acts, then they would book
>them.

...people do come out, at least @ a surprising rate.

>The majority of acts (even mainstream) skip Cleveland these
>days when back in the day, that was a rare occurrence.
>
>Foreign Exchange was here last year (on a sunday @ the grog)
>and there was more people at my aunt's bday party

yeah, I wanted to go to that show but I was caught up.

I did go to see the Roots at House Of Blues... that place was PACKED, even in standing room. and it was MOSTLY Black folks in there which people probably would be shocked to read, I feel.

ditto for Return to Forever. I think they all came out to see Stanley Clarke (LOL), but it was at Plain Dealer Pavilion in the Flats... ABROCK33 posted about it.

That place was PACKED. and the only reason I knew it was happening was because I was in Circuit City screwing around with car stereos and happened to hear the commercial on WZAK.

probably explains why there were a whole lot of Black folks there, and folks from all backgrounds, not just the wine and cheese brigade you might have thought would have been up there.

dogg, you actually saw Jimmy Jam?

He was at the soundboard and that's where we were sitting. Spotted him because he was stlll rocking the long curl back then. He was mad cool. We chopped it up about the classic flyte tyme sound.

and you're right,when they come out, they do. But its all based on radio's promotion.

I was at a Swing Out Sister show at the HOB and was amazed at the audience. Especially the Mirage on Sunday evening, old school pink champagne crowd. I thought I was at a Maze show.

I missed the RTF show...still kicking myself.

Closest I came to a rtf show was when i saw Stanley, Bela Fleck and Jean Luc Ponty @ the Newport Jazz Fest

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

>I missed the RTF show...still kicking myself.

I saw that, I forget how. It was part of JazzFest.

It almost felt like all the 30+ Black folks in Cleveland came out that show... I was clearly the youngest one in attendance, but man. I have never been as geeked as I was that night.

I actually saw folks I knew at that show. It was in the Allen Theatre. He and Diane Reeves.

< I was clearly the youngest one in attendance, but man. I have never been as geeked as I was that night>

Dont get me started on the time I was super geeked to see the Dramatics @ the rock hall....talk about the youngest cat there.....

Speaking of the hall. We gotta rap a taste outside of here. There's events coming up at the Rock Hall for black history.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

Ive been there a few times and its a great concept and cool place
but with no national acts there, most folk don't know about it.
Same goes for nighttown to an extent but night has national acts.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

>I lived in Columbus (OH) for years, and there's a soul
>singer named Middlechild there. I'm 90% positive she couldn't
>even do a gig in Cleveland.

I heard of Middlechild. She did that dope record with J Rawls. Yeah, she's nice with it

edit: sorry that had nothing to do with the overall topic yall.

http://revivalist.okayplayer.com/
www.jdillafoundation.org

Damn I haven't heard that name in a while. Wonder what dude is up to.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

>If anything, I'd say the current black pop is more inspired by
>80s hair metal and the Sunset Strip scene.

Testarossa Music.

>Testarossa Music.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

At least with Graduation and Shock Value. Not saying they started the trend but the success of those two albums aided big time with the ushering in of the "Oontz" era of todays R&B, IMO. Yeah, I know Graduation is hip hop but still, for the past 20 odd years, R&B has steadily looked to hip hop for its cues on what trend to follow next; that's why I added in Graduation.






Since 1976

Bow to the awesomeness of Avery*Sunshine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvB1FYVDdng

who's driving this faux-biza pop?

StarGate, Max Martin, RedOne, David Guetta...

fuck you.

>who's driving this faux-biza pop?
>
>StarGate, Max Martin, RedOne, David Guetta...

when it was studio masterminds in Munich, Paris and Bologna acting as puppet masters for black voices?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

not R&B.

fuck you.

Ironically, but still...

__________________________________________

that's my barometer of done-ness.

_______________
Good...I'm glad

>The funny thing about this, is with a lot of mainstream R&B
>often sounding like it needs to "mach schnell with the
>artwork" nowadays, I'm often reminded of the trends of some
>25+ years ago. "OMG" would have been right up there with the
>Micki Free era of Shalamar. And while I think Top 40 is much
>more integrated than ever before, I do often wonder, if it's
>really on the merits of the artists, or was it by design?
>What'll be the next shake up?

Partially b/c I want to sharply contest the notion that "Top 40 is much more integrated than ever before." I think Top 40 radio is re-segregating. According to Billboard, 2010 was the first year EVER -- that's 52 years strong -- that no song that topped the R&B singles chart topped the Hot 100. If you look at many of the big hit R&B songs of the last couple years -- many didn't even crack the top-50 of the pop chart.

The dance music has crossed over & never looked back. Basically, in order to cross over, R&B acts need an "oontz oontz" dance song, or they will remain in the radio ghetto. Trey Songz can score a top-10 pop hit with "Bottoms Up" -- but "Can't Be Friends" can top the R&B chart for 11 weeks (which is a "wtf?" point in and of itself) and not even crack the top-40. On the flipside, Rihanna can go to #1 pop with "Only Girl" and get basically no urban radio airplay.
As recently as 5 years ago, R&B ballads could garner significant pop airplay. That sh!t has died -- even as country ballads play strongly to those white audiences.

I hate typing up all that Billboard crap. But I say all that to say this: as far as the mainstream is concerned, R&B is dead. It's all europop & country pop, with a little pop-rock sprinkled in if it's danceable. R&B doesn't sell digital singles, which are the lifeline the record industry is clinging to. And acts today are pretty much geared towards doing what sells -- which either means europop or...well, I'm not sure "or" what. Trying to open the tour for an established R&B act, I guess.

Anyways, I don't think there's a "next" game-changer coming. When R&B confronted hip-hop, we saw the emergence of New Jack Swing & then, rapidly afterwards, so-called hip-hop soul, and the reaction against it, "neo-soul", and the eventual coalescence of those styles around the turn of the century (!!!!). The confrontation with southern rap, on the one hand, and europop, on the other, has been much less interesting and dynamic, and the technological disruption it faces this time around is economic, as opposed to stylistic, as it was when synthesizers changed the game in the 80's. That's tougher to cope with.

I don't think the europop is going anywhere anytime soon. It's literally what the rest of the world has been listening to for a while now. In a way, the sound of US pop is catching up with where the rest of the world has been. R&B is becoming a niche -- a HUGE niche, but a niche nonetheless, where we won't see so much "innovation" as there is adept re-working and integration of previous styles.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

>I don't think the europop is going anywhere anytime soon. It's
>literally what the rest of the world has been listening to for
>a while now. In a way, the sound of US pop is catching up with
>where the rest of the world has been. R&B is becoming a niche
>-- a HUGE niche, but a niche nonetheless, where we won't see
>so much "innovation" as there is adept re-working and
>integration of previous styles.
>

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

THIS makes me laugh though:

>On the flipside, Rihanna can go to #1 pop with "Only
>Girl" and get basically no urban radio airplay.

it's like the R&B radio stations are like: "EH-EH!"

if this were an era where people bought albums more than singles (or music at all, comparatively), I really would wonder how that would have resonated with those who bought the album and then were like... "lemme skip this song right chea..."

Now on aficionado/highly critical boards like the Lesson, you might hear someone say they weren't feeling "Beat It" (it's mostly "Thriller" the song that gets that treatment)...but there's just something different about the R&B/pop artist today. You might have nailed it in this reply.

this makes me think twice about why maxxx and others will champion Kells. he just might be one of the last of the Mohicans.

(not that I mind a good "oontz", I just kind of wish it were a little more "R&B" rhythmically and in arrangement, ala what Floating Point does sometimes)

shit you hear during a 12th grade assembly that used to only sound good if coming from the one big black speaker they'd keep in the varsity basketball coach's office in the gym.

Seriously, I guess if I had one takeaway from the current-Euro inspired pop crop (I honestly don't pay attention to much of it) is that it seems to be completely devoid of melody and musically cold. All glowsticks and Target commercials.

_______________
Good...I'm glad

>shit you hear during a 12th grade assembly that used to only
>sound good if coming from the one big black speaker they'd
>keep in the varsity basketball coach's office in the gym.

I just had a flashback... of course, then, that was actually "in style" where it originated

now pardon me as I turn this discussion into a bit of a "geek" moment. but I often watch Youtube videos of car stereos, to get a general look of how they look in people's cars, and what the controls are like, if a place like Best Buy doesn't have 'em.

while sometimes I'm surprised at hearing some classic rock, some older rap, or some R&B... when it ain't modern rap... 90% of those videos starts off like:

*click* OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ and I just fall out laughing.

good post bro claw

Folks who were trying to cross over in the 80's really didnt have a choice if they wanted to remain on the stroll. So if A&M told Jeffrey Osbourne and George Duke to take off their lo heels and put on their ho heels, they did.
Same thang goes on these days. If a record exec names a tune, these suckas will dance to it.
But these days, they have a choice to say no to the bs. There weren't any options in the 80's. Either you play or be played.

Back in the day, there was a balance to the crossover. For all of the On the wings of loves and joanna's, we had Flirt and Cutie Pie.


What kills me is that there's no one fighting this crap. NO ONE!!
Sure we get tweets and rants on message boards but there's no action.
We get so called artists(the entire generation x of artists FUCKED it up) talking shit and sayin' but when it come time to do, everybodys laying.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

they say don't worry...

i might have to go listen to some Curtis after reading that!

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http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

brother curtis was right on with that song
still relevant today

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

>brother curtis was right on with that song
>still relevant today

Curtis was a hell of a songwriter. brilliant, even.

------------------------------------------
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http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

>We get so called artists(the entire generation x of artists
>FUCKED it up) talking shit and sayin' but when it come time
>to do, everybodys laying.

and they didn't even have to keep it super-funky... but it's like after a certain point, cats that were supposed to be the torch-bearers... VANISHED.

here's my thing:
get it together or leave it alone
if the biz aint your thing, that's cool, get on!! go get a job at your cousin's cleaners
but most of the time they wanna complain how fucked up the business is all the while acting like al bundy in the strip club with a dollar on a string teasing us miserable music fans who are forced to oontz

one of the reasons i will champion maxwell now and forever more is that he beat the curse.
dude just said fuck it and got astonishing results from feeling the fear and doing it anyway

same cannot be said about the others
(and we all know who im referring to...)

imagine a music world if these wuuzy frady cats actually made more than one or two records?
we all know the industry is based on following trends
which is why we have albums like ray ray's beach blanket bingo
and usher vs the oontz oontz ooontz monster

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

Yes! I'm feeling that. I'm not giving up on D'Angelo either. I feel with all my heart that there will be some sort of a New Golden Age in black music and it's going to come from both a genuinely creative place. Maxwell and D'Angelo are reportedly gonna drop this year. And whatever they bring musically is going to inspire many others to come out the woods with something different and great.

Jrod Indigo

>imagine a music world if these wuuzy frady cats actually made
>more than one or two records?
>we all know the industry is based on following trends
>which is why we have albums like ray ray's beach blanket
>bingo
>and usher vs the oontz oontz ooontz monster
>
>

And came to this discussion so late because this is the type of subject that fascinates me.

I just don't think we can draw completely accurate comparisons with black music of the past and today. We like to decry the state of mainstream R&B on this board but I think that misses the point... we're so far down the road of genres being mixed and intermingled that there are just too many variables to cover the music being made with one umbrella term. Add to that the fact the charts are basically irrelevant now to a committed music lover and I don't feel we're in a crisis at all. We don't depend on our local radio station to expose us to new music or play the songs we like when we can't afford to buy the record.... today we go on the internet and seek out new music and what we like we can have minutes later. No longer do we wait up watching Friday Night Videos, sitting through all the bullshit while waiting for the one or two videos we actually like.... now we just go to Youtube or another site and watch what we want.

So what I'm saying is there really is no "state of black music" today because it's just to varied. What you want is out there if you want it bad enough. Sure it takes a little more effort than it used to but the rewards are far greater than they were when you sat back and just waited to be fed. Personally I wouldn't change the way things are now for anything.... sure there's a lot of shit out there. But for the most part it's easy to ignore so it really has no impact on the music you choose to consume.
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>Personally I wouldn't change the way things are now for
>anything.... sure there's a lot of shit out there. But for the
>most part it's easy to ignore so it really has no impact on
>the music you choose to consume.

_____________________

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But if that came at the expense of killing the wide verity of music available on the net then hell no.... so in that sense yeah I like things better now.
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I want to make sure I'm reading you properly... Are you saying that the internet has made it possible for people to get any style of black music (EDIT: music made by black artists) that you want, meaning things have gotten so expansive that it doesn't fit into one category of Black Music, or that the internet has mixed things up to the point where there is no black music?

that we had as recently as like, 8-10 years ago.

I miss physical records.

I miss radio not being complete shit ALL the time.

I miss paying for music. And feeling that it was a worthwhile expenditure.

I miss a lot of stuff, man...

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>that we had as recently as like, 8-10 years ago.

The "underground" hadn't fully been developed yet so we were still being forced to look to the same places for our music.

>I miss physical records.

I miss records but not CDs... still I realize my love for vinyl is purely nostalgic. It was no fun having to tape everything you wanted to be portable.

>I miss radio not being complete shit ALL the time.

Truth is radio has always kinda sucked. Now in the 70s it was cool but I remember me and friends talking shit about radio 25-30 years ago.

>I miss paying for music. And feeling that it was a worthwhile
>expenditure.

I still pay for the music I feel is worthwhile... worthwhile enough to want a nice physical copy. Only thing I hate is when you really like something and it's digital only... I have to admit I don't buy mp3s when I already have them

>I miss a lot of stuff, man...

As do we all.... but we should also appreciate the things that are good and/or better.
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.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>I still pay for the music I feel is worthwhile... worthwhile
>enough to want a nice physical copy. Only thing I hate is when
>you really like something and it's digital only... I have to
>admit I don't buy mp3s when I already have them

in particular, the "available" copies of the MP3s were kinda in crap quality, so I just kaufed from Amazon.

Amazon is sort of getting the jump on some import items and offering them digitally, which is cool.

when the CDs are actually easier to obtain, I end up getting them.

I might buy a higher quality copy

But anything 192 or higher I can live with if I already have it
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Saying that there is "no state of black music" is actually announcing that black culture is dead, at least musically. I call this kind of thinking cultural assimilation...not being able to see yourself in the music because the legacies from the past are either ignored, not known or even considered.

Or maybe its just believing that the trends of the moment represent what black music is. Don't let gloabalization, multiculturalism, advanced technology and trendy fool you.

There are artists who produce music in the tradition of black music still...its just that they're lost because they are not a part of the "to varied" clique. There maybe a generation who is unable to identify a black musical state because all they consume is what is "hot". They never look back but always and only forward for the next hot single to be disposed of as quick as the next. But know that there is a state of black music.

It's not that black music doesn't exist.... quite the contrary. Black music of various styles is every where. It's ingrained itself into pop to a point most people don't think twice when a white "rhythm act" comes out now. Maybe a lot of folks on here are just too young to remember but outside of a brief period in the disco era white acts were expected to rock not groove. White performers like Bobby Caldwell and Teena Marie wouldn't have their pictures on an album for fear they wouldn't be able to sell records to black fans. That's because you automatically associated a white performer back then with "white music". Those days are over. Black music isn't only pop music it's a dozen different sub-genres within the black music scene. When I say there is no state of black music now I say that because it's just to wide ranging and far reaching now to melt down into a sentence or two.
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that we live in, old rubrics of measurement don't apply. Essentially, the billboard sales chart is in no way an accurate tool to measure what people are listening to, or even trends. It was flawed before, but its even worse now. Essentially with the blog world, and downloads, the music INDUSTRY is struggling to maintain some degree of control over it all, and failing pretty badly. (well, they are a good barometer of what sells via retail, tho)

they're trying to gauge 0-60 times with a hourglass...the tools are wrong for the job

I don't want to get too much into it cause I'm trying to be positive but until "we" the true audience and the players of the industry and not the financial backers, command & lead the music in the right direction then we will always be watching from the sidelines as it gets taken away from our ears and told when we can come & play but by their playbook; it ain't just r&b that's shifting from a good stand point it's all genres of music but it's still great music to be heard.

Who owns the record labels (Sony, WEA, EMI, and so on), who owns the radio & television stations (Clear Channel, Emmis, Time-Warner, etc), who owns the few pressing plants & music distribution companies, who owns the digital music stores, the majority of the time it ain't music heads or people who care about how good or bad the direction music is going in as long as they're making a profit.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

"...record company recssion, dance floor boredom...and copy machines spit out song after song...."


he said that in 1992. Nearly 20 years ago.



and of course he was right.




Personally, I thought Dance Music would help bring the Soul back, but of course not. Instead, we got mojo'd.

Black People were embarrassed to admit they liked Dance Music ( once The Man gave Disco a bad rap, it all went to shit), so even in the "big Club" era of the 90's, people didn't accept Dance music as Black Music. How many ignorant motherfuckers come on here calling it "Gay Music" or "that sounds Gay"? So Rather embrace those sounds and incorporating it back into the music, it all went to shit...again.


Anyway. Bottom line, any shot we had at keeping it funky and uptempo got wiped out.


Look at how many narrow minded cats on this very board have said shit like: "this is dope...but I don't really listen to stuff like this."

______________



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>Black People were embarrassed to admit they liked Dance Music
>( once The Man gave Disco a bad rap, it all went to shit), so
>even in the "big Club" era of the 90's, people didn't accept
>Dance music as Black Music. How many ignorant motherfuckers
>come on here calling it "Gay Music" or "that sounds Gay"? So
>Rather embrace those sounds and incorporating it back into the
>music, it all went to shit...again.

at the end of the '90s, I felt that what was being done was still Black Music. The "Downtown Julie Brown" (how I miss that woman) era of music. I had backspaced a reply or passage talking about how I feel that "deep house", oft derided by SoWhat here, as he, as he has typed, feels it's boring and also for heterosexuals (LOL) was where the "OONTZ" trend should go instead, if they're going to be aping dance music.

because this '90s Euro shit is just lame for the artists that are doing it to remain in the normal lane of things. They don't even do that shit where it originated (much) anymore.

If just to pick up the damn pace... one of the things I hated most about the late 90s was the way almost every goddamn song was 102 bpm or lower. Every now and then you'd get an exception but for the most part the days of 120+ bpm were over. I love the fact were back to a time where "fast" music is acceptable again.
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>If just to pick up the damn pace... one of the things I hated
>most about the late 90s was the way almost every goddamn song
>was 102 bpm or lower.

I know exactly what you're talking about, too...

Even though a lot of it wasn't very good it was the lone keeper of the 120+ flame for a while.
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>That's why I was supporting Miami bass shit to the very end
>Even though a lot of it wasn't very good it was the lone
>keeper of the 120+ flame for a while.

Remember when some r&b artists were getting into incorporating miami/atl bass music in their music?

Even half of the down-south music was pretty up beat but when it got real slow & less musical I wasn't feeling it anymore.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

or maybe not...LOL

we are in a another cycle of cultural assimilation...

that's the one thing we havent touched on that caused the Digital Beige Shift in Black music...the reason why The Pointer Sisters went from Chick On The Side to Neutron Dance...why Patti LaBelle went from If You Only Knew to New Attitude

we're saw the 80's played out all over again during the 2000's...all of a sudden Black is no longer beautiful and whitness is the coolest thang in the world...let's be really real about it...

you got Kanye running behind after anyone with less melanin than him...you got Mr. Marcy Projects, Jay-Z proclaiming publicly that his BEST friends are Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin...I know Ty Ty and Bleek was hot behind that shit(on the low of course-they need that paycheck)

back in the late 90's, when cats like Puffy and Jay started seeing some real money(a side effect of the 90's boom years), you saw the paradigm shift...hood money wasnt good enough anymore...these rap cats were name dropping unfamiliar brand names that when researched, their hood audience found out that these brands mentioned were exclusive types of brands reserved for the elite of society....you know: Cristal, AMEX Black Cards, Maybachs, etc...

so these new money rap cats started being recognized by white folks that didnt look like their core audience--white people who normally wouldnt recognize them...."I make songs abt crack and guns and Brad Pitt knows who *I* am??? *mind blown*..."

now, most of the time this is dangerous thing for Black folks...far too many of us equate white recognition with legitimacy...this extends to a few levels--personal, professional, etc...again, a good portion of Black folks feel consciously or subconciously validated by the recognition of white folks...and this is because most of us as Black folk still harbor inferiority complxes...so when someone who we feel is superior to us gives us a pat on the back, we get giddy....

Ive wanted to post on this subject for quite some time...I was gonna call the post "George Clooney Show Me Luh...."

I was going to call it that because of Three Six Mafia's Oscar acceptance speech....Those Negroes were ELATED, and they deserved to be--to a point...at some point, the elation was related to the fact they felt acceptance by white people that they would never encounter in real life--even in the music biz...George Clooney simply said "hello" to this cat and shook his hand and that warranted a shout out in this cat's Oscar acceptance speech next to God and his family....and the wording is important..."George Clooney showed me love..."...that wasnt love...George Clooney is prolly just a polite guy greeting a fellow nominee(I have no idea if Clooney was nominated that year)

this is where the inferiority complex comes into play...a good number of your favorite rappers came out of poverty...not "damn, this gas bill is high" poverty but "rats walking around freely in the house" poverty....and in those sub-human conditions, it takes a toll on your self esteem...but we have TV, and TV shows a world that some people dont have access to and have never seen in real life, and the people who inhabit that world are white....this is the 70's and 80's so TV was lily white...which is why Cosby was such a social phenomenon

usually the only white people that these poor Black people see are police officers, teachers, bosses at work, and social workers(not in that order)...usually someone in a position of authority in direct relation to them....put it all together and it drives home the psychological point that "you and the people that look like you aint shit"

there are only FEW Black folks that dont get saddled with that mentality...most of us do...and that low self esteem is on glaring display...

so when white people who would usually cower from you or call the cops on you--older white people, established white people, the damn President of the United States said that your comments were the wildest part of his term in political office...it blows your mind...people who have treated you like a circus animal all of your life start treating you like a human being--*mind blown*

these cats start to feel like:

"hey, I AM important...Im really doing some MAJOR shit....fucking Martha Stewart buys my records(about guns and crack and where I say "ni**a" 126 times)!!!...I'm...a SPECIAL Negro--not like the rest of them...I have a new audience that must be serviced...they go to the STORE and buy my records instead of getting them from the sock man on 125th St....My music speaks to EVERYONE not just black folks in the hood!...."

so they start chasing that audience and tryna live the same lifestyle and take on the same values of these "superior" people that they look up to and co-sign them...that's when you have hood folks tryna impersonate "important" white people by tryna be "moguls" and calling themselves "CEOs" and shit, not knowing what CEOs are or what they do...

...and they like the fucking money

its all abt crossover, any industry vet will tell you that not crossing over will only take you so far...crossing over opens up those never seen before/restricted segments of society...crossover gets you into the country club....and access to some of that money

so now Cadillac isnt good enough anymore, it must be Aston Martin... now you hit the studio...

"what do white folks like? I cant leave them out, they're my fanbase...what was that they were listening to in Vegas???? *light bulb*..."

Wonder why Black Eyed Peas music gets worse and worse?...because it pays--BIG TIME...Will said that the company sat him down and told him flat out..."we like the white girl...make us some music we can SELL and we'll get behind you..."...he complied and they made good on their promise...at the time, all of the Peas were living at home with parents and unable to pay their bills...

with the commercial/material mindset ("GET MONEY") in place, commerce easily trumps art...who cares if the record is any good, as long as it sells...and when we break it down, that mindset is a distinctly European one--placing values on monetary wealth above all else...its the mentality that coporate America and their lack of scruples is based on...

Side note: there is NOTHING wrong with being financially stable and propserous...but when it turns into greed and it corrupts your moral code is when it becomes negative, IMO

So if you're wonderin why Usher is making records that sound like shit you would hear in Hot Topic is because THAT'S who he wants to sell records to, because in this age where nobody buys records, the people who shop at Hot Topic DO buy records...

so you got a bunch of Negroes under the "illusion of inclusion" {(c) Paul Mooney}, aspiring to a more "American" lifestyle rather than a lifestyle that is flavored by their own culture and trying to survive in these tough times and you get this shitty soulless music....JUST like the 80's...

the sad part is the come down...when white folks have seen your same monkeyshine tricks enough and they are no longer entertained...they move on...and you become a punchline on VH1's "I Love The XX's" show...ask Hammer abt that...

let's discuss....if you disagree, tell me why...if I missed somn, add on...let's rap a taste...

You nailed it with acts like Usher and BEP... they are listening to the people that sell music rather than those that create music. That's why I don't really respect acts like that but I still check it out just in case something of quality slips through the cracks. But for the most part you can tell acts that follow their heart and make music that they feel they should be making... it shows up in the quality. You can't really fake it no matter how badly you want a hit. This isn't about mainstream vs underground either. There are mainstream artists I feel still know how to make good music... their music doesn't seem forced at all. I'm not going to hold the fact they have a hit against them as some seem to do. Those are the people I support along with the "underground' acts that are out there doing their thing. Together I feel like I have plenty of good music to listen to.

25-30 years ago all the artists I liked were pretty much in the mainstream... but there were still acts like Usher and The BEPs among them.
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>we're saw the 80's played out all over again during the
>2000's...all of a sudden Black is no longer beautiful and
>whitness is the coolest thang in the world...let's be really
>real about it...

in some aspects, I really feel this was the case in the 1980s.
or there was some sort of funny Anglophile (as in love of things from the UK) thing going on, cats with the worst British accents you ever heard on a track.

again, to the Commodores example. their next hit after "Nightshift" is where J.D. Nicholas exploits his British accent to comedic effect... the song is horrid, but that's what was hot at the time.

>back in the late 90's, when cats like Puffy and Jay started
>seeing some real money(a side effect of the 90's boom years),
>you saw the paradigm shift...hood money wasnt good enough
>anymore...these rap cats were name dropping unfamiliar brand
>names that when researched, their hood audience found out that
>these brands mentioned were exclusive types of brands reserved
>for the elite of society....you know: Cristal, AMEX Black
>Cards, Maybachs, etc...

off topic: Maybachs are BULLSHIT. they're limos. cars you sit in, don't drive. sure, they're beautiful, powerful, opulent as shit.
but fuck that shit. Get a S-Class and call it a day... at least you drive them joints. I kinda find it rubbish that cats is out there fetishizing those particular cars... a car you don't drive? Dogg.

>I was going to call it that because of Three Six Mafia's Oscar
>acceptance speech....Those Negroes were ELATED, and they
>deserved to be--to a point...at some point, the elation was
>related to the fact they felt acceptance by white people that
>they would never encounter in real life--even in the music
>biz...George Clooney simply said "hello" to this cat and shook
>his hand and that warranted a shout out in this cat's Oscar
>acceptance speech next to God and his family....and the
>wording is important..."George Clooney showed me
>love..."...that wasnt love...George Clooney is prolly just a
>polite guy greeting a fellow nominee(I have no idea if Clooney
>was nominated that year)

well, I wouldn't go so far with those dudes, because they would not and have not changed their appearance/music to assimilate (that they even won was actually a low-key source of pride... I was LOLing from the minute they got on stage. they can brag about that award for the rest of their lives)...

I think getting any kind of recognition out of your usual peer group or comfort zone is a humbling experience.

currying favor of that "extraneous" group is something else. it's what politicians have to do to maintain their jobs, but for musicians, I dunno about that... it's ideal if you can bring them to you by doing what you do, rather than them bringing you their way.

>Side note: there is NOTHING wrong with being financially
>stable and propserous...but when it turns into greed and it
>corrupts your moral code is when it becomes negative, IMO
>
>So if you're wonderin why Usher is making records that sound
>like shit you would hear in Hot Topic is because THAT'S who he
>wants to sell records to, because in this age where nobody
>buys records, the people who shop at Hot Topic DO buy
>records...

I agree with this. LMFAO @ Hot Topic though.
I think a lot of this is why some folks look @ Jay (and nowadays, Kanye) with derision as you've pointed out. in the latter's case, though he managed to do what Jay-Z has been trying to do for a while...

...it kind of bugs me even more to hear stuff like that "douchebag" song. Not because of the lyrics, or using words like "douchebag" (which I think is a funny ass word), but because the -sound- of the music is so damn vanilla. This is from an artist whose sophomore album was one that changed my mind about how a rap album could sound in contemporary context.

taking it back, it's part of the reason why cats like Rick James and Cameo are forever treasured. Even Rick made his "crossover" album (GLOW), though it didn't get the most shining of reviews (Rick singing those type of songs was kinda like hearing the O'Jays do the same), I still admire that album as he kept it "Rick". If that's the worst he's going to do to reach across the aisle, he's all right.

Cameo on the other hand. Though I knew the song of theirs that would make DJ Hero would be "Word Up", I'm still amazed that they cracked the consciousness of mainstream America enough to be included there, and in badly-written jokes on SNL.

As I sort of mentioned in the original post, the success (in numbers of records sold) by these type of artists in the 1980s when the mainstream market was, as it apparently is now, hostile to Black artists, is still amazing. Why Michael Jackson is so championed to this day has a lot to do with that. Even as a big-time R&B and pop star as a child and young adult... Mike still had some hurdles to cross on his adult tour as a solo artist.

I think of things like, how, beyond the exclusion of Black artists from MTV, videos themselves were banned or changed for several reasons:

- Ray Parker Jr. had two versions of the video for "The Other Woman" (a perfect song and artist to illustrate this post)

- Midnight Star had two versions of the "Freakazoid" video. Only one showed the band itself.

>or there was some sort of funny Anglophile (as in love of
>things from the UK) thing going on, cats with the worst
>British accents you ever heard on a track.
>
>again, to the Commodores example. their next hit after
>"Nightshift" is where J.D. Nicholas exploits his British
>accent to comedic effect... the song is horrid, but that's
>what was hot at the time.

Although I can't put my finger on a example of him doing a full on British accent before the Little Red Corvette remix, he was one of the first dudes I remember that was using a "white" voice. (especially on the first two Time albums) The British accent Melvin Riley used on Oh Shelia seemed very Prince like ... which I'm sure was his intent when you factor in the music was Princely as well.
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>Although I can't put my finger on a example of him doing a
>full on British accent before the Little Red Corvette remix,
>he was one of the first dudes I remember that was using a
>"white" voice. (especially on the first two Time albums) The
>British accent Melvin Riley used on Oh Shelia seemed very
>Prince like ... which I'm sure was his intent when you factor
>in the music was Princely as well.

he had just started using his regular speaking voice (and singing voice in parts) on that album, but that whole "monotone, robotic" steez might be what you're thinking about. He had Morris doing that shit on "The Walk" (something that had me thinking... "kayfabe is about to be broken" the first time I heard it).

now I gotta find that remix, LOL...

and since we're on the subject of Prince doing "voices"... we all talk about the "Sassy" voice, the "Morris voice", but I think he had a "Jimmy Jam" voice, too. When he down pitched his singing and/or laughing.

"We don't like New Wave! BWAAAAAAAHOOOHOOHOOHOOHOO..."

I mean we really didn't know what dude really sounded like until that movie. We had heard him talk on some of the records but we really didn't know what was being put on and what was real. I will never forget the buzz in the theater when folks realized he really did have a deep ass voice lol

It kinda amazes me to this day how successful Prince was at keeping a mystery about him 6-7 years into his career.
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so I'll get back in this in a few hrs....

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i don't think so.

as we all know, 'things move in cycles'. right now in mainstream Pop, various sounds of Dance music are the thing. a few yrs ago more Hip-Hop-flavored music was the thing. it got old. the mainstream Pop audience was ready for something 'different'. something 'fresh'. it turned out to be this Euro/Dance stuff y'all are talking about. i don't think that has much, if anything, to do w/race or any hostility toward Black acts. i think it's simply a desire for the next thing. in a few yrs this Euro/Dance trend will fade and something 'new' will be the thing. it very well might be something Black. or not. who knows?

when that thing comes, several of the current mainstream acts making Euro/Dance Pop will be tossed aside in favor of the 'freshness'. unless, of course, they're able to adapt and get w/the 'fresh'. some of these acts will be black (watch out, Rihanna) and some will be white (mm-hmm, Kesha). something else we all know, the mainstream Pop audience is generally fickle. as hell. and that's w/o regard for race. ask 98 Degrees about that. ask Mandy Moore. ask Vanilla Ice. each of them were tossed aside by the mainstream Pop audience after the music they made was no longer the thing. they got tossed along w/their music b/c they weren't able to adapt to the new thing. they couldn't remain 'fresh'. it'll happen again w/the current crop of Pop acts.

fuck you.

And I hate to toot my own horn (actually I don't mind) but I called this a couple years ago. One just had to look at the way hip hop albums were doing on the pop chart to see this coming.
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>i don't think so.
>
>as we all know, 'things move in cycles'. right now in
>mainstream Pop, various sounds of Dance music are the thing.
>a few yrs ago more Hip-Hop-flavored music was the thing. it
>got old. the mainstream Pop audience was ready for something
>'different'. something 'fresh'. it turned out to be this
>Euro/Dance stuff y'all are talking about.

which aint fresh, its been around for over a decade...

i don't think that
>has much, if anything, to do w/race or any hostility toward
>Black acts. i think it's simply a desire for the next thing.
>in a few yrs this Euro/Dance trend will fade and something
>'new' will be the thing. it very well might be something
>Black. or not. who knows?
>
>when that thing comes, several of the current mainstream acts
>making Euro/Dance Pop will be tossed aside in favor of the
>'freshness'. unless, of course, they're able to adapt and get
>w/the 'fresh'. some of these acts will be black (watch out,
>Rihanna) and some will be white (mm-hmm, Kesha). something
>else we all know, the mainstream Pop audience is generally
>fickle. as hell. and that's w/o regard for race. ask 98
>Degrees about that. ask Mandy Moore. ask Vanilla Ice. each
>of them were tossed aside by the mainstream Pop audience after
>the music they made was no longer the thing. they got tossed
>along w/their music b/c they weren't able to adapt to the new
>thing. they couldn't remain 'fresh'. it'll happen again
>w/the current crop of Pop acts.


youre overlooking the obvious cultural correlations...youre confusing "new sound" with crossover...you dont have to court new audiences to come up with a new sound in your music....Look at how The Isleys and Cameo switched up their sound during their career but they still did it without completely changing their musical direction...

*******
www.windimoto.com

>>we're saw the 80's played out all over again during the
>>2000's...all of a sudden Black is no longer beautiful and
>>whitness is the coolest thang in the world...let's be really
>>real about it...
>
>in some aspects, I really feel this was the case in the
>1980s.
>or there was some sort of funny Anglophile (as in love of
>things from the UK) thing going on, cats with the worst
>British accents you ever heard on a track.
>
>again, to the Commodores example. their next hit after
>"Nightshift" is where J.D. Nicholas exploits his British
>accent to comedic effect... the song is horrid, but that's
>what was hot at the time.


one word: Rockwell


>>back in the late 90's, when cats like Puffy and Jay started
>>seeing some real money(a side effect of the 90's boom
>years),
>>you saw the paradigm shift...hood money wasnt good enough
>>anymore...these rap cats were name dropping unfamiliar brand
>>names that when researched, their hood audience found out
>that
>>these brands mentioned were exclusive types of brands
>reserved
>>for the elite of society....you know: Cristal, AMEX Black
>>Cards, Maybachs, etc...
>
>off topic: Maybachs are BULLSHIT. they're limos. cars you sit
>in, don't drive. sure, they're beautiful, powerful, opulent as
>shit.
>but fuck that shit. Get a S-Class and call it a day... at
>least you drive them joints. I kinda find it rubbish that cats
>is out there fetishizing those particular cars... a car you
>don't drive? Dogg.


Wait. You dont drive the mofo? Does the price include Kramer to drive you around??


>>I was going to call it that because of Three Six Mafia's
>Oscar
>>acceptance speech....Those Negroes were ELATED, and they
>>deserved to be--to a point...at some point, the elation was
>>related to the fact they felt acceptance by white people
>that
>>they would never encounter in real life--even in the music
>>biz...George Clooney simply said "hello" to this cat and
>shook
>>his hand and that warranted a shout out in this cat's Oscar
>>acceptance speech next to God and his family....and the
>>wording is important..."George Clooney showed me
>>love..."...that wasnt love...George Clooney is prolly just a
>>polite guy greeting a fellow nominee(I have no idea if
>Clooney
>>was nominated that year)
>
>well, I wouldn't go so far with those dudes, because they
>would not and have not changed their appearance/music to
>assimilate (that they even won was actually a low-key source
>of pride... I was LOLing from the minute they got on stage.
>they can brag about that award for the rest of their
>lives)...
>
>I think getting any kind of recognition out of your usual peer
>group or comfort zone is a humbling experience.
>
>currying favor of that "extraneous" group is something else.
>it's what politicians have to do to maintain their jobs, but
>for musicians, I dunno about that... it's ideal if you can
>bring them to you by doing what you do, rather than them
>bringing you their way.


Im not saying that they whitened up their musuc..they havent at all even SINCE the Oscar, actually....I was just using that incident as an example of how important white recognition is to some Black folks...


>>Side note: there is NOTHING wrong with being financially
>>stable and propserous...but when it turns into greed and it
>>corrupts your moral code is when it becomes negative, IMO
>>
>>So if you're wonderin why Usher is making records that sound
>>like shit you would hear in Hot Topic is because THAT'S who
>he
>>wants to sell records to, because in this age where nobody
>>buys records, the people who shop at Hot Topic DO buy
>>records...
>
>I agree with this. LMFAO @ Hot Topic though.
>I think a lot of this is why some folks look @ Jay (and
>nowadays, Kanye) with derision as you've pointed out. in the
>latter's case, though he managed to do what Jay-Z has been
>trying to do for a while...
>
>...it kind of bugs me even more to hear stuff like that
>"douchebag" song. Not because of the lyrics, or using words
>like "douchebag" (which I think is a funny ass word), but
>because the -sound- of the music is so damn vanilla.

*COSBY*

>This is
>from an artist whose sophomore album was one that changed my
>mind about how a rap album could sound in contemporary
>context.
>
>taking it back, it's part of the reason why cats like Rick
>James and Cameo are forever treasured. Even Rick made his
>"crossover" album (GLOW), though it didn't get the most
>shining of reviews (Rick singing those type of songs was kinda
>like hearing the O'Jays do the same), I still admire that
>album as he kept it "Rick". If that's the worst he's going to
>do to reach across the aisle, he's all right.


Im totally not against experimenting with new sounds or expanding your stylistic pallette...take a song like Party All The Time...it has all the hallmarks of the Beige era--stuttery DX7 bassline, loud reverbed claps, canned drums--but it still has that distinctive Rick James flavor...its one thing to reach across the aisle, it another thing to jump over the aisle and run to the other side....Rick was just too Black and sexually threatening...one or the other was cool, BOTH at the same time was too much for White America at the time...Prince was sexually threatening but not aggressively Black or masculine...Michael's sexuality flew over the heads of White America because he was deemed harmless, but the females caught it and Mike tired to play it off with that "aw, shucks" shit...until the crtoch grab and the Panther seciton of the Black or White video(thus the visceral reaction from white folks)...actually I dont think there IS a brother in popular American culture currently who is Black, masculine, sexually forward and heterosexual...


>Cameo on the other hand. Though I knew the song of theirs that
>would make DJ Hero would be "Word Up", I'm still amazed that
>they cracked the consciousness of mainstream America enough to
>be included there, and in badly-written jokes on SNL.

>As I sort of mentioned in the original post, the success (in
>numbers of records sold) by these type of artists in the 1980s
>when the mainstream market was, as it apparently is now,
>hostile to Black artists, is still amazing. Why Michael
>Jackson is so championed to this day has a lot to do with
>that. Even as a big-time R&B and pop star as a child and young
>adult... Mike still had some hurdles to cross on his adult
>tour as a solo artist.
>
>I think of things like, how, beyond the exclusion of Black
>artists from MTV, videos themselves were banned or changed for
>several reasons:
>
>- Ray Parker Jr. had two versions of the video for "The Other
>Woman" (a perfect song and artist to illustrate this post)
>
>- Midnight Star had two versions of the "Freakazoid" video.
>Only one showed the band itself.


this would lead us to get into "The Thriller Effect" and that's a post that's already been done...once Black artists figured out they could get over with a lil cream in the coffee...they went for it and it paid off, just like now...



*******
www.windimoto.com

>one word: Rockwell

LOL, I was listening to that song the night before I wrote that reply, which is why it came up. Then I remembered, they weren't the only ones. It was RFTW most famously as well. I had thought dude from the System was from the UK for a minute because he was doing that Prince-esque, monotone, British accent thing for a few songs.
>Wait. You dont drive the mofo? Does the price include Kramer
>to drive you around??

You can drive the car, it certainly has the engine, the means, and whatnot. But it's mostly used as a limousine than actually driven by people. Which I guess is a new level of "cool" to which to aspire, but if your idea of a cool car is one in which you are typically chauffeured. At least Bentleys, people actually got behind the wheel.

>Im totally not against experimenting with new sounds or
>expanding your stylistic pallette...take a song like Party All
>The Time...it has all the hallmarks of the Beige era--stuttery
>DX7 bassline, loud reverbed claps, canned drums--but it still
>has that distinctive Rick James flavor...its one thing to
>reach across the aisle, it another thing to jump over the
>aisle and run to the other side....Rick was just too Black and
>sexually threatening...one or the other was cool, BOTH at the
>same time was too much for White America at the time...Prince
>was sexually threatening but not aggressively Black or
>masculine...Michael's sexuality flew over the heads of White
>America because he was deemed harmless, but the females caught
>it and Mike tired to play it off with that "aw, shucks"
>shit...until the crtoch grab and the Panther seciton of the
>Black or White video(thus the visceral reaction from white
>folks)...actually I dont think there IS a brother in popular
>American culture currently who is Black, masculine, sexually
>forward and heterosexual...

I'm reaching for one. For a while I was thinking of Ving Rhames. Good point about Mike. The thing that was discussed (and ridiculed) the most after the "Black or White" video was the crotch grab... I mean, an hour's worth of discussion.

actually I dont think there IS a brother in popular
>American culture currently who is Black, masculine, sexually
>forward and heterosexual..

For a time Wesley Snipes would have counted too
_________________________________
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Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

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Latest episode- "Vanilla Child" R.I.P. Teena Marie

>one word: Rockwell

Being as that was 84 and RFTW was 85 I'm sure that was where they got the idea
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Latest episode- "Vanilla Child" R.I.P. Teena Marie

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_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Insightful and spot on.

Bad witch

still digesting.

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>Side note: there is NOTHING wrong with being financially
>stable and propserous...but when it turns into greed and it
>corrupts your moral code is when it becomes negative, IMO

i definitely don't think some mainstream R&B acts are making allegedly Euro-flavored music b/c they've been corrupted. i think they're making it b/c it's selling right now. if Afro-flavored music sold right now, they'd make that. i don't think any of it is the result of corruption though. i don't assign a moral value to it like that. at least not in this context.

>So if you're wonderin why Usher is making records that sound
>like shit you would hear in Hot Topic is because THAT'S who he
>wants to sell records to, because in this age where nobody
>buys records, the people who shop at Hot Topic DO buy
>records...

yeah. that's (smart) business.

>so you got a bunch of Negroes under the "illusion of
>inclusion" {(c) Paul Mooney}, aspiring to a more "American"
>lifestyle rather than a lifestyle that is flavored by their
>own culture and trying to survive in these tough times and you
>get this shitty soulless music....JUST like the 80's...

naw. i disagree w/that. i don't think the folks we're talking about are laboring under any illusion. i think they're trying to make money and milk their time in the spotlight. if the spotlight was on 'the hood' as it was in the 90s (Gangsta Rap/East Coast v. West Coast/Hip-Hop Soul/et al) then they'd be all up in that video milking their fame.

i don't think these acts are under any illusions, unlike the 80s, b/c they have the benefit of history. i suspect most of these folks are savvy enough to know what's going on and conduct themselves and their business accordingly.

>the sad part is the come down...when white folks have seen
>your same monkeyshine tricks enough and they are no longer
>entertained...they move on...and you become a punchline on
>VH1's "I Love The XX's" show...ask Hammer abt that...

that's always gonna happen though, regardless.

fuck you.