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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jan-19-12 11:21 AM

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"James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)"


  

          

( http://youtu.be/dDH9Jq5AWkQ )

Seriously, though… Just some stuff I've had on my mind this morning.

So I'm playing some James Brown (as I do everyday) and the classic "Funky President (People It's Bad)" comes on… and while I'm listening to it and I find myself wondering…

"Why has the Godfather of Soul not been 'adopted' by the Black Conservative movement in the way that some other figures such as Zora Neale Hurston have been?"

He definitely fits the profile. James Brown was proud of his standing a Negro Horatio Alger character and that informed his values and ideals as a Black man. If you listen to his interviews, speeches and his "sermons" in song, it becomes clear that his ideas of Black ascension were staunchly in the Booker T. Washingtonian mold. For example, take the controversial 1968 track "America is My Home":

http://youtu.be/252TrvSPoJg

I mean like wow! That is basically the Black Conservative manifesto right there, ain't it? Only thing he left out was "racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination," but other than that he hit most of the main talking points:

-America is great as it is, the greatest country in the world
-Only in America can anybody be anything they want, regardless of birth or class
-Look at me: I came from nothing and I made it!
-What Black people need to do is stop complaining and making excuses, educate themselves, learn to speak proper English, work hard, save their money and pay their taxes… and then we all can make it

So why then have Conservatives NOT appropriated James Brown?

I have a few theories on this: for one, it probably would have been hard to do when he was alive. James was sort of skittish about allying himself with political factions after the backlash he suffered from his Black and/or progressive audience in the 1960s when he was down with H. Hubert Humphrey and seemed to indicate support for the Vietnam war, and then again in the 1970s when he endorsed the reelection efforts of Richard Nixon. The Godfather was much too smart to risk that again by getting into bed with the Right.

But more importantly, I think, is the fact that it is very difficult convincingly sell James Brown as a conservative icon because he and his music are so inextricably associated in the public imagination with the radical Black Power movement. This is due, of course, to his popular 1968 anthem "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)" which was essentially the soundtrack of the Black Power and Black Pride movements.

(Add to that, if you will, two records produced by James Brown but performed by his sideman Hank Ballard in 1968 and 69: "Blackenized" and "How You Gonna Get Respect (When You Haven't Cut Your Process Yet)")

Because of this James Brown is often thought of as a figurehead of the Black Power movement… But the truth is that James Brown did not think much of the Black Power movement. He didn't like SNCC. He certainly did not approve of the Black Panther Party and did not want to associated with any kind of "revolution" (not a literal one, anyway… which is why he named his 1971 live album Revolution of the Mind).

To James Brown, the salvation of the Black community lay in Black capitalism. Which is why he was always quick to cite his ownership of Black radio stations and other businesses as HIS definition of "Black Power."

It was well-known in Black Power circles that James was not "conscious"… But he wielded an immense power as one of the most successful and popular Black entertainers among working-class Negroes and the BPM wanted to harness that power for their cause. Also, there was a tremendous amount of respect for his artistic innovations that created a style of music that was aggressively, transcendentally "Black"… But they knew that James Brown's mind was not on the same wavelength as theirs.

I should also mention that James didn't particularly think much of "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)"… He didn't like the song much, and he only recorded it (along with the Ballard pro-Black anthems) under pressure from Black radicals and to appease the Black audience he had alienated with "America is my Home." But by 1971, James had put that process back in his hair and by 1974 or 75, he had stopped performing "Say It Loud" because he didn't really believe in that song. As much as James Brown helped score the Black Power movement, his own politics were much closer to someone like Larry Elder.

***
While this dichotomy between iconography of James Brown, the Black Power SYMBOL and the politics of James Brown the MAN has been on mind for a few months, I'll admit that I **really** got to thinking about this now partly because of some exchanges I had with my perennial rival Warren Coolidge… Y'know, when he was going on about how James Brown was like the king of Black Power and liberation and how he paved the way for real musical rebels like Bob Marley and Fela Kuti and did everything they would later do and so on…

I know Coolidge was laying it on thick in an effort to needle me, but at the same time, I suspected that he believed some of it. Because I know a lot of people do. But I wonder: does it matter? If it takes an imaginary James Brown to inspire a nation of millions, does it matter that the real one probably would not have approved of it?


(Been ages since I made a long rambling post… Gentlemen, start your Colin Powells! But if you want to seriously discuss this, I am game. And believe it or not, I didn't post this to start no trouble... so keep the drama in your purse)

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
did p-funk ever take shots at his conservativeness?
Jan 13th 2012
1
I'll have to think about it.
Jan 13th 2012
3
i was gonna cite "take some leave some"
Jan 13th 2012
2
Jabo is credited as the writer but
Jan 13th 2012
6
Add this song to the list
Jan 13th 2012
4
'Don't wave your hand if you don't mean it
Jan 13th 2012
8
hmmmm....
Jan 13th 2012
11
Your average black person back then wasn't down with the hippies
Jan 13th 2012
14
      right.
Jan 13th 2012
17
Yep... I thought about that too after I made the post.
Jan 13th 2012
9
      Yeah but it's really a disingenuous example
Jan 13th 2012
22
           Black conservatives would tell you the ropes ARE there, though.
Jan 13th 2012
27
                Of course
Jan 13th 2012
56
                     both sides also benefit from not being Black Americans
Jan 13th 2012
66
                          Right
Jan 13th 2012
92
James Brown = Herman Cain (+ PCP)
Jan 13th 2012
5
lol
Jan 13th 2012
7
LMAO!!!!!
Jan 13th 2012
10
this is too funny.
Jan 13th 2012
12
It's right on the money.
Jan 13th 2012
13
Lol
Jan 14th 2012
161
jokes aside..that's the problem with this post..
Jan 14th 2012
162
I'll just address the last point:
Jan 13th 2012
15
How about the fact that the only reason James made the song
Jan 13th 2012
16
      compare James's reaction to Panther pressure to Sly's reaction.
Jan 13th 2012
19
      yeah, Sly was much more radical-leaning even if he wasn't pro-Black
Jan 13th 2012
21
           Thats One Of My Fave Talk Interviews Ever,,,
Jan 13th 2012
23
           Dunno if I remember this one...
Jan 13th 2012
29
                This One,,
Jan 13th 2012
39
                     Ah yeah... I've seen clips of that.
Jan 13th 2012
43
           he didn't seem to parrot the BPM message in response to the pressure
Jan 13th 2012
24
           I wonder how the BPP took to that...
Jan 13th 2012
28
                me too.
Jan 13th 2012
41
           Where Mohammed Ali calls him a uncle Tom? Sly... radical?
Jan 13th 2012
73
                I didn't say Sly was a *Black* radical
Jan 13th 2012
77
                     I never once said 'black radical'... I just said 'sly? Radical?'
Jan 13th 2012
83
                          Having an integrated band was radical in itself.
Jan 13th 2012
85
                               Yes I know that's exactly what I just said - outside of those three item...
Jan 13th 2012
87
                               didn't happen with the Panthers - that happened with coke
Jan 13th 2012
88
                                    Read that oral history that came out a few years ago...
Jan 13th 2012
90
                                         Oral history - where? Link? Name of a book? Source?
Jan 13th 2012
91
                                              Sly & the Family Stone: An Oral History (link)
Jan 13th 2012
93
                                                   Thank you Sir that's what I needed. I'm definitely going to check
Jan 13th 2012
94
                                                        that's a great book, btw.
Jan 16th 2012
187
      Eh, not really
Jan 13th 2012
42
      LOL
Jan 13th 2012
44
      1-800-759-7243
Jan 13th 2012
71
           LOL
Jan 13th 2012
74
           sheeeeeeeeeeit.
Jan 13th 2012
78
                She must have been late 20s in the period im talking about
Jan 13th 2012
95
                     I was obsessed w/ Marilyn too (right up to Solid Gold) but on the real
Jan 13th 2012
97
           RE: 1-800-759-7243
Jan 14th 2012
167
      'Talkin Loud & Sayin Nothin'
Jan 13th 2012
45
           hmm... I never thought of that one!
Jan 13th 2012
47
      hold up.... "pressuring James Brown" ???
Jan 14th 2012
163
           man, I ain't make up a DAMN thang.
Jan 14th 2012
170
                lol.... yeah..you're making stuff up...
Jan 14th 2012
174
                     I produced that quote just to show you
Jan 14th 2012
175
speaking of iconography
Jan 13th 2012
18
Yeah, I never liked that stache
Jan 13th 2012
20
      Yeah.
Jan 13th 2012
25
between this and reading Marable's book on Malcolm
Jan 13th 2012
26
However James' Conservative approach = MLK.
Jan 13th 2012
31
are you replying to me?
Jan 13th 2012
33
oops nah original poster
Jan 13th 2012
36
It's not that James didn't want to make political statements, though
Jan 13th 2012
37
      They weren't really statements as much as misguided encouragement
Jan 13th 2012
46
           He did encourage Blacks to vote for Nixon, though.
Jan 13th 2012
48
                I pointed that out that he had a thing for Nixon - post 46
Jan 13th 2012
50
                     You said he didn't tell anybody who to vote for.
Jan 13th 2012
53
                          But B, this is Jet. I mean it was huge for a black man to meet the pres
Jan 13th 2012
54
                               *sigh*
Jan 13th 2012
55
                               No just offering some insight - cause Jet mag isn't evidence...
Jan 13th 2012
57
                                    How is Jet mag not evidence?
Jan 13th 2012
58
                                         My point is I never heard James endorse the man - I'm not even arguing.
Jan 13th 2012
60
                                              So you're saying he had no principles and stood for nothing?
Jan 13th 2012
63
                                                   Um, how on earth did you get that? lol
Jan 13th 2012
65
                               you seem to be suggesting he didn't love elvis.
Jan 16th 2012
198
I just started the Marable book...
Jan 13th 2012
35
      RE: I just started the Marable book...
Jan 13th 2012
51
           I can dig that.
Jan 13th 2012
72
RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)
Jan 13th 2012
30
???
Jan 13th 2012
38
RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)
Jan 13th 2012
32
he doesn't believe that
Jan 13th 2012
34
LOL yeah
Jan 13th 2012
40
damn, before you reply twice try to read once n/m
Jan 14th 2012
168
      RE: damn, before you reply twice try to read once n/m
Jan 17th 2012
219
RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)
Jan 13th 2012
49
James wasn't a sellout - he just wasn't a saviour
Jan 13th 2012
52
      i think the point is
Jan 13th 2012
59
           I think if anyone knows anything about James they would know
Jan 13th 2012
61
                okay.
Jan 13th 2012
70
                RE: I think if anyone knows anything about James they would know
Jan 13th 2012
104
                     But that doesn't change what he stood for. History isn't undone.
Jan 13th 2012
112
                          the ppl and the media, yes.
Jan 13th 2012
115
                               *daps* yep.. it's like the saw the Afro logo and thought black power
Jan 13th 2012
118
                                    yup. LOL
Jan 13th 2012
121
                                         that's why I pointed out to him James didn't do anything wrong.
Jan 13th 2012
127
                                              i didn't think he said James did anything wrong.
Jan 13th 2012
128
                                                   I dunno - I mean he sorta painted him as an uncle tom bafoon.
Jan 13th 2012
131
                                                        It's only Uncle Tom buffoonery if you think it is.
Jan 13th 2012
132
                                                        Yes to me calling it "The Conservative Manifesto" would be &
Jan 13th 2012
134
                                                        JAMES called 'Say It Loud' obsolete, not Afkap.
Jan 13th 2012
138
                                                             Regardless of who said it - it's not an obsolete record.
Jan 13th 2012
154
"the salvation of the Black community lay in Black capitalism"
Jan 13th 2012
62
yep on Cos. nm
Jan 13th 2012
64
Try every successful artist - black or white.
Jan 13th 2012
67
I usually give people of that generation a 'pass'
Jan 13th 2012
75
I mean pretty much. Hence my statement almost every entertainer
Jan 13th 2012
81
What Do U Think of African Immigrants Who Profess These
Jan 13th 2012
110
      Well, we're all entitled to change our views over time.
Jan 13th 2012
119
      Somalia
Jan 13th 2012
129
           Hmm... you know, I can see how one would switch up
Jan 13th 2012
157
      ain't no such thing as off-topic to me.
Jan 13th 2012
130
I strongly disagree on Cosby
Jan 13th 2012
107
      But you see Cos would be like James - personal and private lives
Jan 13th 2012
109
      Im generalizing here but
Jan 13th 2012
117
           Yeah but success was on all their minds... I mean let's be real
Jan 13th 2012
123
                OK I have some time now... guess I'll start here
Jan 13th 2012
142
                     I agree with just about everything you said. nm
Jan 13th 2012
144
                          Damn maybe I better read what i wrote again lol
Jan 13th 2012
145
                               Hahaha... Make no mistake, there are some fine points
Jan 13th 2012
148
                                    OK now I feel better
Jan 13th 2012
150
                                         word. nm
Jan 13th 2012
152
      I Didn't Say They Share The Same Political Stance,,,
Jan 13th 2012
133
           Let me be clear... I wasn't jumping on you
Jan 13th 2012
151
                Exactly which is why saying Jb was scared of revolution
Jan 13th 2012
153
James Brown speaks on his feelings about 'Say It Loud' (1986)
Jan 13th 2012
68
Cause he was about Pride and the term "Black" was revolutionar...
Jan 13th 2012
69
I like how he framed that.
Jan 13th 2012
76
      Yeah, he doesn't trash the song altogether
Jan 13th 2012
80
           Can Ya'll See Something Wrong With This? lol
Jan 13th 2012
135
                That was his, Cos' and Flip's hangout.
Jan 13th 2012
136
                Hef was extremely progressive
Jan 13th 2012
137
                     there is no modern talk show equivalent.
Jan 13th 2012
139
                     umm... is (was) Arsenio close enough?
Jan 13th 2012
140
                          there isn't 1.
Jan 13th 2012
141
                               yeah... *sigh* nm
Jan 13th 2012
143
                                    Charlie Rose + Fallon + Daily Show...?
Jan 13th 2012
146
                     Yeah your right Cos hosted more than anyone else
Jan 13th 2012
156
isn't calling Hank Ballard "a sideman" a bit unfair?
Jan 13th 2012
79
Hank had his own illustrious career
Jan 13th 2012
82
      I know Hank way more for his Midnighters days
Jan 13th 2012
86
           Well, I think the relationship was like
Jan 13th 2012
                He also did an hilarious recitation on ''get on the good foot''...
Jan 13th 2012
99
                     This was the height of James' self-mythologization era
Jan 13th 2012
101
What if James Brown were 'conscious'?
Jan 13th 2012
84
see also:
Jan 13th 2012
89
      Ha! Yeah... I can't blame him for not going that way
Jan 13th 2012
100
Funny thing is that even the label buried ''America is my home''...
Jan 13th 2012
96
yeah, it was really hard to find for years
Jan 13th 2012
98
      on another note ya know what just came to mind?
Jan 13th 2012
102
Couple of major problems with your assertions...
Jan 13th 2012
103
this quote - nails it.
Jan 13th 2012
105
*sigh* *exits post*
Jan 13th 2012
106
*Holds door* we just talking like everyone else but if it's too much...
Jan 13th 2012
108
WC & AF
Jan 13th 2012
111
      man I was wondering why you called me out... lol..
Jan 13th 2012
114
LOL
Jan 13th 2012
125
I'm glad you brought this up man
Jan 13th 2012
113
Man I can't wait....
Jan 13th 2012
116
oh, I certainly would agree with the idea
Jan 13th 2012
122
      Cosby helped finance Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song!
Jan 13th 2012
124
           that why I pointed it out - but he didn't know that when he invested.
Jan 13th 2012
126
           70s Cosby is probably one of my favorite figures
Jan 13th 2012
158
I (very deliberately) never used the word 'Republican' though
Jan 13th 2012
120
Just wanted to say props to Kap for a great friday post
Jan 13th 2012
147
It went MUCH better than I expected!
Jan 13th 2012
149
      Yeah this post is doooppee... well done man damn good topic
Jan 13th 2012
155
part II.... james brown the black revolutionary
Jan 14th 2012
159
And Warren C Shuts it down and makes common sense outta this
Jan 17th 2012
228
      .
Jan 17th 2012
230
           I agree with WC *shrugs*
Jan 17th 2012
231
                FYI: James was 12 years into a successful career
Jan 17th 2012
232
                     You are totally moving the goal posts here but hey...
Jan 17th 2012
233
                          I know whose quote it was; you cosigned it and praised its veracity
Jan 17th 2012
234
                               so says you - and you have a right to your opinion - as we do ours
Jan 17th 2012
235
                                    Again - please show me one entertainer who started revolution
Jan 17th 2012
236
                                         I said an entertainer had started a revolution?
Jan 17th 2012
237
                                              No you didn't - yet you said one was afraid of one.
Jan 17th 2012
238
Funk ....the Essence of Black Power...
Jan 14th 2012
160
I see you embrace the MYTH of JB, not the MAN.
Jan 14th 2012
173
WC - dope response thanks for this.
Jan 17th 2012
229
Mind Power...."if you don't work......you can't eat"
Jan 14th 2012
164
you are moving the goalpost.
Jan 14th 2012
171
      I think some clarity is needed.
Jan 15th 2012
184
      I view Black Conservatism as separate from mainstream Conservatism
Jan 15th 2012
185
           I agree with this description
Jan 16th 2012
188
                Black Conservatives struggle with the problem of presentation
Jan 16th 2012
189
      it shows his view of his own people as being contrary to the view
Jan 16th 2012
191
James Brown - Hell (1974).... hmm...who else said Hell was on earth?
Jan 14th 2012
165
^^^^ I was waiting for this post
Jan 14th 2012
166
How does this indicate endorsement of the Black Power Movement?
Jan 14th 2012
172
JB's closest political ally (and close friend) was Al Sharpton
Jan 14th 2012
169
you need better comp
Jan 15th 2012
176
LOL
Jan 15th 2012
177
your right and i know this is true for a fact
Jan 15th 2012
178
How so?
Jan 15th 2012
179
      Step pops
Jan 17th 2012
225
           C'mon, man... speak up if you got some 411. nm
Jan 17th 2012
226
perhaps the most interesting and omitted tidbit re: I'm Black (& I'm Pro...
Jan 15th 2012
180
yep... white and Asian.
Jan 15th 2012
181
I'm not sure which side this helps more
Jan 15th 2012
182
      In James' autobio he kinda used it to illustrate
Jan 15th 2012
183
hahaha. what a stupid fuck you are.
Jan 15th 2012
186
There is no need for that kind of language, sir. Nice, okay?
Jan 16th 2012
190
Funky President.......James brown..the 99 percenter....
Jan 16th 2012
192
...in other words, his beliefs were in line with Booker T. Washington
Jan 16th 2012
193
      nothing about modern Black conservatism relates to Booker T.
Jan 16th 2012
194
           Shows how much you know about modern Black conservatism.
Jan 16th 2012
195
                lol.... I know all about the Black Conservative movement....
Jan 16th 2012
203
                     You're contradicting yourself.
Jan 16th 2012
204
                          no contradiction at all....
Jan 16th 2012
208
                               *sigh* I promised myself I would not get into it with you
Jan 16th 2012
209
                                    RE: *sigh* I promised myself I would not get into it with you
Jan 16th 2012
214
very interesting post
Jan 16th 2012
196
indeed.
Jan 16th 2012
197
could it be that the scholars looked into it and found nothing
Jan 16th 2012
199
      No revolution can really take off without the support of the arts
Jan 16th 2012
202
      makes me wonder about the artists behind "the Arab spring"
Jan 16th 2012
206
           once again social media/Internet has taken music's place.
Jan 17th 2012
223
                just what I was thinking
Jan 17th 2012
224
                     there was a guy in Tahrir Square who sang protest songs w/a guitar.
Jan 17th 2012
227
                          RE: there was a guy in Tahrir Square who sang protest songs w/a guitar.
Jan 17th 2012
241
      maybe
Jan 17th 2012
242
Caught a related piece on NPR today
Jan 16th 2012
200
I'll check it out.
Jan 16th 2012
201
both
Jan 16th 2012
205
such a painful interview
Jan 16th 2012
207
isnt hip hop hard to pin down though?
Jan 16th 2012
210
it definitely is
Jan 16th 2012
212
      i like lyrics about money
Jan 16th 2012
213
RE: Caught a related piece on NPR today
Jan 18th 2012
245
i thought it was accepted that JB was firmly in the booker t mould
Jan 16th 2012
211
Of COURSE he was. That much is self-evident.
Jan 16th 2012
216
      Oh, one more thing:
Jan 16th 2012
217
      always had a way with words (c) Phife's Granny
Jan 17th 2012
221
      exactly.
Jan 17th 2012
222
great post
Jan 16th 2012
215
thanks!
Jan 16th 2012
218
i agree.
Jan 17th 2012
220
This was a damn good read
Jan 17th 2012
239
lol yeah after I posted it I realized it wasn't that long
Jan 17th 2012
240
James Brown speaks of solidarity with Elijah Muhammad 1968
Jan 17th 2012
243
See I was gonna go there... I'm glad you did.
Jan 18th 2012
247
Finally(!) you come forward with some kind of solid evidence!
Jan 18th 2012
264
interesting and good thread. ppl represented their points well
Jan 18th 2012
244
James Brown embodied Black Cultural Nationalism
Jan 18th 2012
246
Amen WC
Jan 18th 2012
248
James Brown was not himself a Black Nationalist
Jan 18th 2012
249
He actually starts his paragraph off saying that.... not to mention
Jan 18th 2012
250
James was no revolutionary, but he wanted to see Black ppl succeed.
Jan 18th 2012
251
      But to succeed in that climate by doing for self was revolutionary
Jan 18th 2012
252
      . . .
Jan 18th 2012
254
      WANTING Black people to succeed....and actually doing things
Jan 18th 2012
261
           my coworker has been a community activist and organizer since
Jan 18th 2012
262
                nobody is saying James Brown was a "radical"
Jan 18th 2012
265
                     You could make this same argument about almost *ANY* black celebs
Jan 19th 2012
278
you responded with the first sentence of my own post...lolol.
Jan 18th 2012
253
      right.
Jan 18th 2012
255
           But the post says "James Brown was scared of revolution"
Jan 18th 2012
256
           . . .
Jan 18th 2012
257
           shrugs
Jan 18th 2012
258
                jb is pretty easy to project anything you want on to him
Jan 18th 2012
259
           damn, brother...he didn't mean that shit literally!
Jan 18th 2012
269
                I am but the way he spoke on him... had to be called out.
Jan 19th 2012
279
           I'm not here to purposely look at things without context
Jan 18th 2012
260
                sure, guy.
Jan 18th 2012
263
                Pretty much - to mention Jet and not Mohammed Speaks
Jan 19th 2012
280
This is interesting to me...
Jan 18th 2012
266
      This quote could easily apply to you tho.
Jan 19th 2012
281
           sure, guy.
Jan 19th 2012
283
                Great avy btw. :) Hey I'm just saying your argument totally
Jan 19th 2012
284
                     Hank Ballard was not a disgruntled employee.
Jan 19th 2012
285
                          didn't you refer to him as just a sideman?
Jan 19th 2012
286
                          yes, and all sidemen are disgruntled, of course.
Jan 19th 2012
288
                               You just said he wasn't disgruntled. Now your saying he is?
Jan 19th 2012
289
                                    jesus christ.
Jan 19th 2012
290
                          Um for those who have read that autobiography it was bullshit.
Jan 19th 2012
287
                               Okay. So I guess you know more about JB's life than he did himself.
Jan 19th 2012
291
                                    No it's just James was constantly selling something - himself.
Jan 19th 2012
292
                                    So Fela never spoke on Geraldo Pino playing James?
Jan 19th 2012
293
James Brown embraced the role of Black Messiah (swipe)
Jan 18th 2012
267
wow... what a specious argument.
Jan 18th 2012
268
      click on the link..it takes to you the reader...
Jan 18th 2012
270
           It takes you to the front page, not to the quoted passage
Jan 18th 2012
271
                lol..dude I haven't even begun to provide evidence....
Jan 18th 2012
272
                     Well, then what are you waiting for?
Jan 18th 2012
274
"Like Mr. Muhammad say...do for your self" - James Brown 1971
Jan 18th 2012
273
sure, guy (c) SoWhat
Jan 18th 2012
275
Richard Nixon on "Black Power"
Jan 19th 2012
276
I said I was done, but I can't let these half-truths go uncontested.
Jan 19th 2012
277
      from this post? lol.
Jan 19th 2012
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Post is going to valhalla before it it goes bad
Jan 19th 2012
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Reuben
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1. "did p-funk ever take shots at his conservativeness? "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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3. "I'll have to think about it."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

They took a few (good-natured) shots at him in general, but I'd have to go back and reexamine them for any political references.

I have, however, heard P-Funk fans who were teenagers in the early 70s speak disparagingly about James' conservativeness (both political AND musical)

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philpot
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2. "i was gonna cite "take some leave some""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but he didnt write the song i guess

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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6. "Jabo is credited as the writer but"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

did he write the words? Who knows...

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OldPro
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4. "Add this song to the list"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jan-13-12 12:28 PM by OldPro

  

          

http://youtu.be/lYNJK5sHHeo

A few months back during the whole Herman Cain fiasco, I saw Sean Hannity using this song as an example of how "good" black folks used to think.


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SoWhat
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8. "'Don't wave your hand if you don't mean it"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

don't wave your hand if you don't clean it'

from 'Get Up Get Into It Get Involved'.

i always LOL @ that line. i assume he was saying he wasn't down w/the dirty hippies and the poseur college kids.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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11. "hmmmm...."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

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OldPro
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14. "Your average black person back then wasn't down with the hippies"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>i always LOL @ that line. i assume he was saying he wasn't
>down w/the dirty hippies and the poseur college kids.

Growing up right by Berkeley I can tell you without a doubt the late 20s-30 something average black man trying to raise his family wasn't happy about their presence in the east bay. When they established a working relationship with the Panthers it was a pretty controversial issue within the community.

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SoWhat
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17. "right."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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9. "Yep... I thought about that too after I made the post."
In response to Reply # 4
Fri Jan-13-12 12:34 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

It's kind of fascinating uncovering this parallel James Brown narrative. I wish he had spoken up more... I'd liked to have heard more about how he really felt in the midst of that era of dominant Black radicalism.

But sheeeeit.... HANNITY actually played this?

That saddens me. Almost taints the song in my mind because this is actually one of my faves.

EDIT: I guess that shows that the Right might be cottoning to JB after all, though...

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OldPro
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22. "Yeah but it's really a disingenuous example"
In response to Reply # 9
Fri Jan-13-12 01:05 PM by OldPro

  

          

>But sheeeeit.... HANNITY actually played this?
>
>That saddens me. Almost taints the song in my mind because
>this is actually one of my faves.
>
>EDIT: I guess that shows that the Right might be cottoning to
>JB after all, though...

Using it to draw a parallel with the state of the black community today is a flat out dishonest talking point (but then that's what fox and the like does)

Of course you're going to be focused on the basic desire to simply educate and support yourself and your family when living in or around the time of Jim Crow. Your first order of business is to remove the road blocks that are hindering you from being the best man you can be... it's a one step at a time approach. I look at it like someone falling overboard into the ocean. When you're flailing around in the water the only thing on your mind is to stay afloat. But once someone throws you a life preserver you're going shift your thoughts to getting out of the water. It's good for cats like JB & Cain they were able to grab onto a rope and pull themselves out... problem is there aren't enough ropes for everyone.
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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27. "Black conservatives would tell you the ropes ARE there, though."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

And they'd point at Korean and Ethiopian immigrants to illustrate this.

I have to admit that to some degree, I actually agree with them that many (not ALL) all the hindrances we talk about, we create (or perpetuate) them ourselves.

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OldPro
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56. "Of course"
In response to Reply # 27
Fri Jan-13-12 01:42 PM by OldPro

  

          

>And they'd point at Korean and Ethiopian immigrants to
>illustrate this.
>
>I have to admit that to some degree, I actually agree with
>them that many (not ALL) all the hindrances we talk about, we
>create (or perpetuate) them ourselves.

To take an all or nothing approach to an issue like this is simplistic thinking at it's very worst. Both communities you named have a much more stable family situation (as a whole) and haven't been subjected to the conditions american blacks have. When you dehumanize and mind fuck a group for 400 years you can't really expect them to trust the same institutions and people that did it to them. The struggle is overcoming those mental blocks and separating the real from the imaginary. People like Herman Cain want us to believe it's all in our heads and racism is a non issue (economically)... that view is just as naive as the cat who thinks "The Man" is holding him back even though he can't even make change when his register breaks down.
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k_orr
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66. "both sides also benefit from not being Black Americans"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Like here in NYC, being a West Indian is bonus to employers, cause you're not like the other blacks. Jamaicans = The Black Jews.

Go a couple hundred miles to Canada, and West Indians are at the bottom of the social totem pole.

  

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OldPro
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92. "Right"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          


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SoWhat
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5. "James Brown = Herman Cain (+ PCP)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it's pretty evident after really listening to the man's lyrics.

fuck you.

  

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OldPro
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7. "lol"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

you ain't really wrong though
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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10. "LMAO!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

That's actually true, though...

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Joe Corn Mo
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12. "this is too funny. "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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13. "It's right on the money."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

I should have used Herman Cain instead of Larry Elder in my post.

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mwasi kitoko
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161. "Lol"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

  

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Warren Coolidge
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162. "jokes aside..that's the problem with this post.."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

applying the modern definition of so-called political conservatism upon James Brown's lyrics from over 40 years ago is simply off base...

apples and oranges.

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Jan-13-12 12:47 PM

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15. "I'll just address the last point:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

('cause really, I can't top SoWhat's post)

>But I wonder: does it matter? If it takes an imaginary James Brown
>to inspire a nation of millions, does it matter that the real one
>probably would not have approved of it?

IMHO, no, it doesn't matter. This isn't like Ronald Reagan trying to appropriate "Born in the USA" and completely missing the point of the song. The Black Power Movement was drawing inspiration from the lyrics/message of "Say it Loud!" and other tracks. Yes, other songs by James expressed a different message (can't say it was contradictory, 'cause it wasn't), but his message in that song was clear. Kind of a "print the legend" type of thing. Or, say, like MLK drawing inspiration from Gandhi, even though Gandhi had, um, less than flattering beliefs about Black people.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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16. "How about the fact that the only reason James made the song"
In response to Reply # 15
Fri Jan-13-12 12:55 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

was because machine gun-toting Black Panthers made it clear that he was required to make a radical Black statement? Does that change anything?

For me... it kinda does. In a way.

More than anything, it ties back to my criticism of the Black Nationalist movement and their bullying tactics. I have a hard time supporting a movement that is supposed to be intellectual but employs physical duress to win converts. It's a bit too fascist for my taste, y'know?

EDIT: But yeah... other than that, I agree. The song served its purpose and helped launch a revolution of sorts, whether or not James actually believed in it.

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SoWhat
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19. "compare James's reaction to Panther pressure to Sly's reaction."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Sly came w/'Thank You' and then Riot after the pressure was on him.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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21. "yeah, Sly was much more radical-leaning even if he wasn't pro-Black"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

(at least not in the sense in which we generally understand it)

...

Drat... I wanted to post that clip of him and Muhammad Ali on the Mike Douglad Show but I can't find it anywhere.

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Harlepolis
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23. "Thats One Of My Fave Talk Interviews Ever,,,"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>(at least not in the sense in which we generally understand
>it)
>
>...
>
>Drat... I wanted to post that clip of him and Muhammad Ali on
>the Mike Douglad Show but I can't find it anywhere.

Even though the whole thing seemed staged as wholly hell. I've always enjoyed Sly's convos with Mike Douglas,,,well,,,apart from that one in 76 with Rhoda as the co-guest, that was sad.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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29. "Dunno if I remember this one..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>Even though the whole thing seemed staged as wholly hell. I've
>always enjoyed Sly's convos with Mike Douglas,,,well,,,apart
>from that one in 76 with Rhoda as the co-guest, that was sad.

Was he coming on to her or something? I think I remember some interview where Sly was wasted and borderline sexually harassing someone...

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Harlepolis
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39. "This One,,"
In response to Reply # 29
Fri Jan-13-12 01:20 PM by Harlepolis

  

          

>>Even though the whole thing seemed staged as wholly hell.
>I've
>>always enjoyed Sly's convos with Mike Douglas,,,well,,,apart
>>from that one in 76 with Rhoda as the co-guest, that was
>sad.
>
>Was he coming on to her or something? I think I remember some
>interview where Sly was wasted and borderline sexually
>harassing someone...
>

http://youtu.be/txRuUJP0rFk

The beginning of the trailer, the whole interview used to be in youtube.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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43. "Ah yeah... I've seen clips of that."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

The one where he said if the next album doesn't blow up, he's out of the game.

His jaw was TIGHT in that one.

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SoWhat
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24. "he didn't seem to parrot the BPM message in response to the pressure"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

like James did. his responses were a bit more ambiguous.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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28. "I wonder how the BPP took to that..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Was it enough to satisfy them?

Well, he did keep them around him long enough for them to help destroy the band, so I guess he sated them in different ways...

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SoWhat
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41. "me too."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

maybe they chose to go w/the favorable reading and ignored the other possiblity. lol

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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73. "Where Mohammed Ali calls him a uncle Tom? Sly... radical?"
In response to Reply # 21


          

How so?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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77. "I didn't say Sly was a *Black* radical"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

but he was a radical in that he was part of the counterculture where James was a defender of the establishment.

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Artful Dodger
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83. "I never once said 'black radical'... I just said 'sly? Radical?'"
In response to Reply # 77
Fri Jan-13-12 02:23 PM by Artful Dodger

          

and Sly was all about Peace and love... the only thing radical about him besides his fantastic music and his integrated band, was his drug use. I was just trying to figure out in what sense was he radical, I'm assuming your meaning his affiliation with the Hippy culture?

Reason I ask is cause towards his decline, that changed. That change took place in the 70's as well so he was still quite relevant when it happaned. Sly did in fact go from the HIppy culture to brandishing a gun, and surrounding himself with street thugs at his home in the Bay. Sly is as A-political as one can get so the term threw me. I assume you mean the Hippy Movement when he was involved?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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85. "Having an integrated band was radical in itself."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

>and Sly was all about Peace and love...

Also, being about peace and love in the Vietnam era was radical.

>Reason I ask is cause towards his decline, that changed. That
>change took place in the 70's as well so he was still quite
>relevant when it happaned. Sly did in fact go from the HIppy
>culture to brandishing a gun, and surrounding himself with
>street thugs at his home in the Bay.

From what I've read, that happened when he let the Panthers in. They poisoned the well and planted the seeds for the decline of the Family Stone.

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Artful Dodger
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87. "Yes I know that's exactly what I just said - outside of those three item..."
In response to Reply # 85


          

what was radical about Sly?

lol. SMH. Looking for an argument?

I mean i just literally pointed that out. Not arguing my man.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Fri Jan-13-12 02:21 PM

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88. "didn't happen with the Panthers - that happened with coke"
In response to Reply # 85
Fri Jan-13-12 02:23 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Read Miles' take on it. (Autobiography as told to Quincy Troupe is where you can find it).

How he would stop by to do blow and there would be drug dealers, junkies hanging out at his home. Not Panthers.

for one I don't fully agree with painting the Panthers as some thug organization despite the fact that bullying was apart of their tactic in some cities but to be fair as they grew and became more popular to the youth - this was bound to happen cause, well people were fed up.

That being said - whether it was Greg, Sly himself, Carlos or Miles - I never ever heard any of them mention the Panthers being there. Hell those guns might have been FOR the panthers lol.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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90. "Read that oral history that came out a few years ago..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

In it, it was said that the Panthers came around and really influenced Sly. They were pressuring him to get rid of Greg and Jerry, and the group's manager too... and eventually Larry (well, his beef with Larry was more personal, actually)

The thugs who came to become Sly's entourage WERE Panthers, or Panther-affiliated.

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Artful Dodger
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91. "Oral history - where? Link? Name of a book? Source?"
In response to Reply # 90
Fri Jan-13-12 02:28 PM by Artful Dodger

          

* Not discounting it - would just like to read it.

  

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SoWhat
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93. "Sly & the Family Stone: An Oral History (link)"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

http://books.google.com/books/about/Sly_and_the_family_Stone.html?id=_raWGwAACAAJ

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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94. "Thank you Sir that's what I needed. I'm definitely going to check"
In response to Reply # 93
Fri Jan-13-12 02:34 PM by Artful Dodger

          

this out. Sly's story man... smh.

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
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187. "that's a great book, btw."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

you'll definitely enjoy that one.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
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mistamonotone - taboo
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mrhood75
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42. "Eh, not really"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>was because machine gun-toting Black Panthers made it clear
>that he was required to make a radical Black statement? Does
>that change anything?
>
>For me... it kinda does. In a way.

First of all, I seriously doubt Huey Newton held a AK to James' head and told him he had to record the song. I think they pressured James to make a "radical" song, because that's just how things were at the time. You couldn't sit on sidelines while the world was changing, you had to take a stand. I think the grand majority of us on this board can't really wrap our heads around the environment at the time (except Old Pro, who has Methuselah's pager number).

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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44. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          


>(except Old Pro, who has Methuselah's pager number).
>

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OldPro
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71. "1-800-759-7243"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

But if you ain't got that pin number dummy..........

for real though I don't want to make it sound like I was fully aware of everything going down during that time period. I mean they were really tumultuous times at we lived at the epicenter of most of the shit that was going down... so a good amount of stuff has stuck with me. But for the most part I was more concerned with Marilyn McCoo's legs than I was anything else.


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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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74. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>But for the most part I was more
>concerned with Marilyn McCoo's legs than I was anything else.

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Dr Claw
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78. "sheeeeeeeeeeit."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

she was one of the finest 43-year olds I ever have seen, back in my day!

  

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OldPro
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95. "She must have been late 20s in the period im talking about"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

>she was one of the finest 43-year olds I ever have seen, back
>in my day!

These were The 5th Dimension days. I remember hating Billy Davis Jr after I found out that was her man lol


_________________________________
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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97. "I was obsessed w/ Marilyn too (right up to Solid Gold) but on the real"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

It was Joyce who made me feel funny sensations in my pants.

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Bombastic
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167. "RE: 1-800-759-7243"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>But if you ain't got that pin number dummy..........you can't call me(c)Mix-A-Lot

  

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SoWhat
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45. "'Talkin Loud & Sayin Nothin'"
In response to Reply # 42
Fri Jan-13-12 01:35 PM by SoWhat

  

          

^ i assume that was a shot at the young BPM/BPP folks who'd pressured him?

it helps me make sense of the 'You can't use me' talk in that song.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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47. "hmm... I never thought of that one!"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Listening to it right now... and the lyrics could very well lend themselves to that!

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Warren Coolidge
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163. "hold up.... "pressuring James Brown" ???"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

you're saying that that the Black Panthers with machine guns threatened James Brown...made demands upon him about what songs to make..


See dude...this is what I'm saying...You are making shit up...flat out lying about historical events to advance your agenda...

Perfect example right here of a complete lack of intellectual integrity..and simple dishonesty..

James Brown was really a "conservative" and only deviated from that message in his music because the Black Panthers had guns and bullied him....

you ought to be ashamed of yourself for making up such an outrageous claim..

it's truely shameful.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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170. "man, I ain't make up a DAMN thang."
In response to Reply # 163
Sat Jan-14-12 07:43 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

>you're saying that that the Black Panthers with machine guns
>threatened James Brown...made demands upon him about what
>songs to make..
>
>
>See dude...this is what I'm saying...You are making shit
>up...flat out lying about historical events to advance your
>agenda...

My dude, HANK BALLARD himself said this in an interview with Cliff White. I would link the interview--I had a printout of it I made back in the 90s, but I don't know if I can find it right now...

Actually, hold on... I think I remember that Uhuru Maggot cited the interview in his book...

http://bit.ly/xQBKui

(Hey, lonesome_d... Vincent called Hank a "sideman" too! lol)

Anyway, Warren... If you want to say Hank Ballard lied about that, then fine... I don't see why he would do that, but it's cool. Just don't put it on me.

And by the way, if you read James' autobiography, he does allude to this in an indirect manner. He doesn't suggest that he was intimidated as such, but he does acknowledge that he was under a lot of pressure from Black radicals to make a Black Power statement, and that he received threats, including a grenade delivered to his hotel room (he does not specify who sent it, though).

And then he records "Say It Loud" and then declares that the record was "obsolete" by the time he cut it because he doesn't believe that you should be shouting about what color you are?

Did I make up all that stuff?

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Warren Coolidge
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174. "lol.... yeah..you're making stuff up..."
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

>>you're saying that that the Black Panthers with machine
>guns
>>threatened James Brown...made demands upon him about what
>>songs to make..
>>
>>
>>See dude...this is what I'm saying...You are making shit
>>up...flat out lying about historical events to advance your
>>agenda...
>
>My dude, HANK BALLARD himself said this in an interview with
>Cliff White. I would link the interview--I had a printout of
>it I made back in the 90s, but I don't know if I can find it
>right now...
>
>Actually, hold on... I think I remember that Uhuru Maggot
>cited the interview in his book...
>
>http://bit.ly/xQBKui
>
>(Hey, lonesome_d... Vincent called Hank a "sideman" too! lol)
>
>Anyway, Warren... If you want to say Hank Ballard lied about
>that, then fine... I don't see why he would do that, but it's
>cool. Just don't put it on me.

You claimed that "the only reason" James Brown made Say it loud was because he was pressured by gun carrying panthers...

that's not even what that quote says...

That quote doesn't speak to any particular incident pressuring James to do anything specific like make a song.....

You're going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that James was under any pressure to do anything..

you are taking YOUR view of the Black Power movement and twisting and exagerating facts..and making things up (there is no specific mention of James being placed under pressure to make that specific song as you claim..so yes..that's a flat out lie)

because of YOUR view of the Black power movement you are twisting facts to ...

hold up..

man you a sneaky ass negro...lol...

you purposely didn't show the entire quote where the author comes out and says that the Panthers didn't pressure James Brown to do anything..

yeah..this post is going into the archives....another example of you making shit up and twisting facts..

nice try player.





>
>And by the way, if you read James' autobiography, he does
>allude to this in an indirect manner. He doesn't suggest that
>he was intimidated as such,

then why would you say that he was pressured by gun carrying panthers...when the author of the book your are referencing says he wasnt....and his autobiograpy says he wasn't..

lol..

amazing.



but he does acknowledge that he
>was under a lot of pressure from Black radicals to make a
>Black Power statement, and that he received threats, including
>a grenade delivered to his hotel room (he does not specify who
>sent it, though).

yeah...had to be the panthers...because there wasn't any other group who was using those tactics against black leaders..

oh wait...lol..

there was the CIA..


>
>And then he records "Say It Loud" and then declares that the
>record was "obsolete" by the time he cut it because he doesn't
>believe that you should be shouting about what color you are?
>
>Did I make up all that stuff?
>
James Brown had numerous songs after Say it loud....AFTER the Black power movement was over..that shows where he stood...

stay tuned..I plan on continuing to link up several....to completely destroy your false and exagerated claims about the man's views and the message he was communicating.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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175. "I produced that quote just to show you"
In response to Reply # 174
Sat Jan-14-12 10:06 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

the reference to "machine gun-toting Panthers" was not a fabrication.

However, that paragraph in Rickey Vincent's book was not my only--or even primary--source for what I wrote. It just happened to be the most available one, the one I could readily find on Google Books.


>You're going to have to do a lot better than that to prove
>that James was under any pressure to do anything..

I don't have to do a goddamn thing.

You were the one saying the other day that it is annoying when people ask questions that they could answer for themselves on the Internet, right? Well... You are on the Internet right now, not so? I've giving you the basic bearings... go look up the rest of it if you really care.

>you are taking YOUR view of the Black Power movement and
>twisting and exagerating facts..and making things up (there is
>no specific mention of James being placed under pressure to
>make that specific song as you claim..so yes..that's a flat
>out lie)

I never said he was under pressure to make "that specific song"... I said he was under pressure to make a pro-Black Power statement, and that song was his response to it.

It's not like Bobby Seale wrote the song and gave it to James with a gun to his head insisting that he record "that specific song."

>because of YOUR view of the Black power movement you are
>twisting facts to ...

You don't even KNOW my view of the Black Power movement.


>you purposely didn't show the entire quote where the author
>comes out and says that the Panthers didn't pressure James
>Brown to do anything..

How the hell am I supposed to do that. I linked to the Google Books page... Do I control what you see and don't see? Scroll down if you want to read more!

And yeah, Rickey Vincent says "it is unlikely that James Brown was intimidated"... That is HIS opinion, though. He doesn't cite any particular source to refute Hank Ballard... it seems to me that he just doesn't WANT to believe that James was intimidated. And I understand why, mind you... It's kinda like watching your dad get punked.

I actually read that line a few times before I posted it. I'm trying to understand what Vincent meant there... I got the feeling that he meant that James may not have been intimidated, but that he was definitely approached. Personally, I can't see James being scared of nobody in that way, and by the same token, I would imagine the Panthers having more respect than to say to James "sing pro-Black or we kill you, nigga!"

The point is that James WAS approached and he WAS under pressure. (I don't think I ever personally used the words "threatened" or "intimidated.") He confirms as much in his autobiography and even said that Stokely told him that James Brown was the most dangerous man to the Black Power Movement because people listen to James Brown and if James Brown does not support the Movement, the survival of the Movement is in question.

But in any case, like I said, Rickey Vincent's book was not my primary source... I just linked that page because it's what I could find on the Internet. But Vincent was offering his opinion on a different source, which is the same source I got it from... and there was nothing in that source to suggest that it was "unlikely" that this episode happened.

You have a problem? Take it up with Hank Ballard.

>yeah..this post is going into the archives....another example
>of you making shit up and twisting facts..

Yep, let it be archived so future generations can see your inability to comprehend simple statements and your goalpost moving and your total misrepresentation of others people's ideas so as to create scarecrows.


>James Brown had numerous songs after Say it loud....AFTER the
>Black power movement was over..that shows where he stood...
>
>stay tuned..I plan on continuing to link up several....to
>completely destroy your false and exagerated claims about the
>man's views and the message he was communicating.

Please do.

You haven't done so yet ("Hell" and "Mind Power" do not count at all). So I'm very interested!

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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18. "speaking of iconography"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I wonder if that informed James to actually rock a stache early in the 70s... he never looked right that way (and when the decade came to an end, he got rid of that too).

Considering his background (and something I either remember reading about him, or hearing about him around the time of "Living In America"), I wouldn't be surprised.

I have somewhat similar thoughts of Eddie Murphy, who I think is one of the more interesting Black stars of our time. Certainly of the 1980s.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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20. "Yeah, I never liked that stache"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

It made him look too much like yer dad... which was uncomfortable when he was screaming about being a sex machine. I think the mustache aided in him becoming something of a parody.

What's your theory on Eddie? You think he's a conservative too? Somehow I just can't really associate Eddie with ANY political stance... I mean, I don't know about later in life as he became a husband and father, but young Eddie seemed like the type who didn't care about nothing but money, clothes and hoes.

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Dr Claw
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25. "Yeah."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>It made him look too much like yer dad... which was
>uncomfortable when he was screaming about being a sex machine.
>I think the mustache aided in him becoming something of a
>parody.

It just didn't look right. He came up in an age where that sort of thing had to be "deleted" to be accepted by the masses. So when he joined the rest of Black America and let it all hang out (best example of this is Marvin Gaye; One of my uncles always favored him, and it seemed that the both of them didn't adopt that beard until right after the clock struck midnight on 1971).

>What's your theory on Eddie? You think he's a conservative
>too? Somehow I just can't really associate Eddie with ANY
>political stance... I mean, I don't know about later in life
>as he became a husband and father, but young Eddie seemed like
>the type who didn't care about nothing but money, clothes and
>hoes.

With Eddie, I don't really associate him with any political stance. His reluctance to do so even at the height of his popularity (I'm going off DELIRIOUS) probably helped him. I find it funny in how he used humor to confront an America that was still very, very uncomfortable with Black folks, went even further than Rich Pryor in exposing a certain kind of "Blackness" to America (really young Eddie is funny to watch in how he does the "Black people do this, other people do that" joke) ... but at the same time seemed kind of post-racial?

He didn't seem to mind embracing some of that 1950s-ness that was all over the early 1980s. A guy who famously tried to get a room of white people to say "Nigger" (one of my favorite routines) yet at the same time, was quite the bargainer... the one who ignored or de-emphasized 'cism in his routines, and if he did bring it up, it was usually on some several-degrees-of-shade shit.

He was both the scary/wild Black man but also the Black guy who was cool enough to introduce to your friends.

I guess that's also one of the reasons why I enjoyed his work.

  

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k_orr
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26. "between this and reading Marable's book on Malcolm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't know what to do with myself (c) white dude from the White Stripes.

>So why then have Conservatives NOT appropriated James Brown?

I'm honestly not sure why white conservatives haven't jumped on it, other than most of their thought leaders aren't hip enough and I think their base is largely turned off by blackness, conservative or not.

>To James Brown, the salvation of the Black community lay in
>Black capitalism. Which is why he was always quick to cite his
>ownership of Black radio stations and other businesses as HIS
>definition of "Black Power."

This is where I am now. I haven't fully thought about what's wrong with this approach and how it messes with other things I believe in, but if I'm running my own shop, i'm not gonna pass on a resume that says Jamawn Washington.

Eats at me daily. I work with like 10 other black attorneys on multi-billion dollar matters, and none of us together are seeing anywhere near that type of coin.

But being realistically able to convince some multi-national to give us work is something most white folks got issues with.

But I wonder: does it
>matter? If it takes an imaginary James Brown to inspire a
>nation of millions, does it matter that the real one probably
>would not have approved of it?

The imaginary James is vital, much like the imaginary X (or the one of the Alex Haley version) is vital.

Although I think Malcolm wanting to send Brother Mouzone types to kill cops in LA after their mosque was invaded may have only strengthened our imaginary idea of X.

But we need heroes, imagined or not.

one
k. orr

  

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Artful Dodger
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Fri Jan-13-12 01:13 PM

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31. "However James' Conservative approach = MLK."
In response to Reply # 26
Fri Jan-13-12 01:22 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Are we forgetting he was the most popular and influential figure of his era? MLK that is.

I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with it just didn't rep my belief system.

"You can't sell out if you haven't been sold in" - James.

says it all.

However the same could be said about almost every popular musician during that time quite honestly. Sly, Jimi - many wanted to make music not political statements so I'm not sure why James is being singled out. It's not like George Clinton stood next to the Panthers either.

There were a few speaking up but James wasn't some obscure singer, he was the JayZ of his era. No different than having that type of expectation of seeing Jigga standing next to Farrakhan.

Outside of The Last Poets, a few jazz artists - I would say on paper (not in their private lives) 95 percent of all entertainers were scared of revolution. However let's be real - everyone on OKP and in today's modern society is afraid of any real revolution. Malcolm clearly points this out in "Ballot or the Bullet" - 'real revolution is bloody'. However - I hear you.

I too have struggled with his approach and his mustache. However I wouldn't ask of him anything more than asked of almost EVERY artist of his day. Last I checked none of them really pushed a revolutionary stance outside of Reggae, High Life, Spoken Word, Jazz and Punk. *shrugs*

however "Living In America"? Jesus.

  

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k_orr
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33. "are you replying to me?"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

  

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Artful Dodger
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36. "oops nah original poster"
In response to Reply # 33


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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37. "It's not that James didn't want to make political statements, though"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

He DID want to make statements, and he DID make those statements.

It just so happens that those statements were conservative ones.

In fact, James said that the reason he cosies up to Nixon was because he wanted to gain influence in the White House.




(I was hoping you would respond to this post, btw)

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Artful Dodger
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46. "They weren't really statements as much as misguided encouragement"
In response to Reply # 37
Fri Jan-13-12 01:29 PM by Artful Dodger

          

if you ask me. He never told anyone who to vote for, he never affiliated himself with any political movement, with the exception of his relationship to Sharpton and Jackson - and having a thing for Nixon... ? (weird).

However when black people needed him - he was there.

He respresented self empowerment (running his own label, owning his own publishing, being the first man of color to own multiple TV stations and Radio stations across the country).

He was more of a symbol of encouragement - a Garvey of his day minus, as you pointed out, any underground consciousness. More mainstream, but still effective.

Again he was the JayZ of his day and it's no different than ayone expecting Jigga to speak on Racism at a Brooklyn Nets halftime game.. aint happening.

The country was going throug alot so it wasn't like there wasn't a platform to speak on things. James' approach is not unlike JFK or MLK for that matter. Mind you - I don't agree with that approach - but considering

did any other funk band make a public statement on TV? of any kind?

No... mainly in music if anything. I tip my hat to him for giving it a shot, even if recieving the youth award for work in the black community from a then 19 year old Al Sharpton on Soul Train doesn't quite satisfy the need.

Either way, I wouldn't expect anything from james Brown before any other entertainer of his day. I know where your going though.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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48. "He did encourage Blacks to vote for Nixon, though."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>if you ask me. He never told anyone who to vote for, he
>never affiliated himself with any political movement, with the
>exception of his relationship to Sharpton and Jackson - and
>having a thing for Nixon... ? (weird).

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Artful Dodger
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50. "I pointed that out that he had a thing for Nixon - post 46"
In response to Reply # 48
Fri Jan-13-12 01:33 PM by Artful Dodger

          

However I don't recall him ever saying vote for Nixon

please provide a source for that.

I also don't recall him saying 'racism is a figment of our imagination' in regards to the black youth cause for one - he would be doing this during the dog attacks on the black youth in selma or after the lynchings?

That, I dunno I need a source for that as well.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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53. "You said he didn't tell anybody who to vote for."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

In any case, here's a source supporting his endorsement of Nixon:

http://bit.ly/ylWCUP

(btw I read this issue of Jet as a child and that was my first time of hearing of James Brown... I didn't know anything about politics, obviously, but everybody knew Nixon was a bad man and I wondered why James Brown was supporting him)

I didn't say that James said racism was a figment of the imagination... I said he DIDN'T say that.

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Artful Dodger
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54. "But B, this is Jet. I mean it was huge for a black man to meet the pres"
In response to Reply # 53
Fri Jan-13-12 01:40 PM by Artful Dodger

          

and James was arguably one of the most consistent.

he met with almost every president since Nixon and did that same exact shit.

Same with Ford, Carter, and even Reagan.

You were spot on as a kid. lol.

Just like his autobiography

"Elvis was a good friend. I loved Elvis."

shakes head.

not really an endorsement - he just wasn't the one to be contrary about... well anything. lol.

An endorsement is actually being out and about - speaking on Nixon at his shows, on soul train, continuously campaigning.

Hell James new that man tried to assasinate the president of Chile' over 8 times in one year... he better be smiling.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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55. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

forget about it, then... I guess you are just gonna deny the evidence before your eyes.

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Artful Dodger
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57. "No just offering some insight - cause Jet mag isn't evidence..."
In response to Reply # 55
Fri Jan-13-12 01:44 PM by Artful Dodger

          

I'm not saying what your saying isn't true..

what I'm explaining for many African Americans, james going to the White House was a big deal. Even when Nixon was there. So I doubt highly he would say anyting contrary to Nixon's presence. That's my point. You have already pointed out how middle of the road he was, so this is completely in line with that.

He didn't campaign for the man is what i'm saying but like I pointed out first - he did have a weird thing for Nixon. I remember people even saying Nixon had files on the man - not a shocker.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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58. "How is Jet mag not evidence?"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

If Jet wrote that James was endorsing Nixon and it was not true, you think there would not have been a lawsuit?

Go look up whether James ever sued on that.

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Artful Dodger
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60. "My point is I never heard James endorse the man - I'm not even arguing."
In response to Reply # 58
Fri Jan-13-12 01:49 PM by Artful Dodger

          

James was a vocal person - shaking hands with the president and saying "vote for him" was kinda James thing. when he met with Dick Clark (not sure if it was bandstand) he referred to him as the greatest host in music - despite the fact he was buddies with Don Cornealius. From what I understand Don wasn't too keen on that either. Nor was Frankie Crocker. That just how jame's moved... he didn't speak badly of ... anyone.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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63. "So you're saying he had no principles and stood for nothing?"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

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Artful Dodger
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65. "Um, how on earth did you get that? lol"
In response to Reply # 63
Fri Jan-13-12 01:50 PM by Artful Dodger

          

If anything I basically supported what you wrote - and just added on to it.

smh.

My point was... what artist wasn't afraid of revolution really?

  

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ninjitsu
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198. "you seem to be suggesting he didn't love elvis."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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35. "I just started the Marable book..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

is it THAT devastating?

All the early press seemed to focus on the gay stuff and that didn't really bother me all that much... but I'm hoping that the book doesn't destroy my image of Malcolm altogether.

>I'm honestly not sure why white conservatives haven't jumped
>on it, other than most of their thought leaders aren't hip
>enough and I think their base is largely turned off by
>blackness, conservative or not.

I agree. As much as the GOP claims to want diversity in the party, their attempts to court Blacks have been woefully slipshod and wrongheaded.

I don't think they are really so committed to the idea as to go and do the research to unearth and groom respected Black conservatives from history. That's more the job of the Black Conservative corps. Interestingly, I've seen some of them trying to rehab Malcolm and prop him up as a proper conservative. Not surprising, though... because apart from the racism thing (which Malcolm disavowed), NOI largely fit in with the conservative ideology.

>This is where I am now. I haven't fully thought about what's
>wrong with this approach and how it messes with other things I
>believe in, but if I'm running my own shop, i'm not gonna pass
>on a resume that says Jamawn Washington.

Yeah, I periodically subscribe to that, too... IMO forced integration has not worked very well and I wonder whether Booker T. was not right when he professed that the right way for us to go about it was to corner various key sectors of industry so that whites would be *forced* to deal with us if they wanted our goods and services.


>Eats at me daily. I work with like 10 other black attorneys
>on multi-billion dollar matters, and none of us together are
>seeing anywhere near that type of coin.

How many years on the job, though? Obviously you gotta pay the dues for a few years, but are you at least seeing some signs of possible advancement?


>The imaginary James is vital, much like the imaginary X (or
>the one of the Alex Haley version) is vital.

Oh god... I am starting to feel really nervous about this Marable book!

>Although I think Malcolm wanting to send Brother Mouzone types
>to kill cops in LA after their mosque was invaded may have
>only strengthened our imaginary idea of X.

WHat??? Okay...

>But we need heroes, imagined or not.

I agree.

I just wish we had more real ones.

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k_orr
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51. "RE: I just started the Marable book..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>is it THAT devastating?

I'm about 55% through.

Umm he unmasks some of the hyperbole in Haley's book and sheds light on the Nation's pettiness.

I have plenty of issues with Manning's side jaunts into other black-analia and his ability to seemingly read the thoughts of a dead man - but it has a lot of stuff.

>All the early press seemed to focus on the gay stuff and that
>didn't really bother me all that much... but I'm hoping that
>the book doesn't destroy my image of Malcolm altogether.

The gay stuff is funny. There are definitely some fact based assertions, but there's also the framing that Marable does. Rubs me the wrong way.

But if you're a connect the dots kinda guy, the later issues he has with Betty and his general feelings about women...with the gay stuff in mind, paints a totally different picture. Luckily Marable doesn't make the argument that Malcolm's suppression of his sexual identity is what made him so driven. But you could most definitely make that argument if you were so inclined.

>I don't think they are really so committed to the idea as to
>go and do the research to unearth and groom respected Black
>conservatives from history. That's more the job of the Black
>Conservative corps. Interestingly, I've seen some of them
>trying to rehab Malcolm and prop him up as a proper
>conservative. Not surprising, though... because apart from the
>racism thing (which Malcolm disavowed), NOI largely fit in
>with the conservative ideology.

Most def. Plenty of stuff fits the conservative ideology from an abstract enough level. It's the nitty gritty where it falls apart. Implementation of any black conservative stuff meets racism, and racism requires state/government intervention. (cause if we took up arms...well...)

>Yeah, I periodically subscribe to that, too... IMO forced
>integration has not worked very well and I wonder whether
>Booker T. was not right when he professed that the right way
>for us to go about it was to corner various key sectors of
>industry so that whites would be *forced* to deal with us if
>they wanted our goods and services.

I'm not mad at that.
It's working for the nations of India and China.

>>Eats at me daily. I work with like 10 other black attorneys
>>on multi-billion dollar matters, and none of us together are
>>seeing anywhere near that type of coin.
>
>How many years on the job, though? Obviously you gotta pay the
>dues for a few years, but are you at least seeing some signs
>of possible advancement?

topic for another time, lol.

>>But we need heroes, imagined or not.
>
>I agree.
>
>I just wish we had more real ones.

indeed

But back to James, I think I mentioned before how much I liked his conscious period. (I think I even made a post about whether or not James had ever had a Fro, which was promptly lessonized)

There are other things I like about James, but some of it has to do with his basic "alieness" to me. Cause I'm not from the deep south, neither are my ppl's, but there's that kinda resigned to my fate/making the best of what I got undercurrent in everything he does.

No, really back to James.

He didn't endorse them, spoke out against em, but did he understand what the conscious/bpp people were about?

I wonder.

one
k. orr

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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72. "I can dig that."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

>Umm he unmasks some of the hyperbole in Haley's book and sheds
>light on the Nation's pettiness.

I usually like those "story behind the story"-type pieces. I'm a lover of mythology, but I also love the reality behind the mythos and I see no reason why they can't exist (as long as the reality doesn't completely invalidate the myth).

>I have plenty of issues with Manning's side jaunts into other
>black-analia and his ability to seemingly read the thoughts of
>a dead man - but it has a lot of stuff.

You know what they say: Biography is always a form of fiction.... it just depends on the deftness of the author to maintain the facade of realism and objectivity.


>But if you're a connect the dots kinda guy, the later issues
>he has with Betty and his general feelings about women...with
>the gay stuff in mind, paints a totally different picture.
>Luckily Marable doesn't make the argument that Malcolm's
>suppression of his sexual identity is what made him so driven.
> But you could most definitely make that argument if you were
>so inclined.

Yeah, I can remember a few years ago when the NY Post and them were making a big fanfare about some declassified FBI papers that suggested Malcolm couldn't satisfy her sexually and all that, that he seemed to be reluctant to sleep with her at all.


>Most def. Plenty of stuff fits the conservative ideology from
>an abstract enough level. It's the nitty gritty where it
>falls apart. Implementation of any black conservative stuff
>meets racism, and racism requires state/government
>intervention. (cause if we took up arms...well...)

And that's the problem with most of the conservative ideology: the stubborn denial that racism still exists in any troublesome amount today.


>But back to James, I think I mentioned before how much I liked
>his conscious period. (I think I even made a post about
>whether or not James had ever had a Fro, which was promptly
>lessonized)

That is my fave James period as well.


>No, really back to James.
>
>He didn't endorse them, spoke out against em, but did he
>understand what the conscious/bpp people were about?
>
>I wonder.

I think he *understood* it.

Here's what he said in his autobiography:

"Stokely Carmichael and his group, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, had joined in, too. There was a lot of ferment going on, and a lot of tension inside and outside the movement. Martin was trying to keep things going on a nonviolent way, and Stokely and them were starting to talk about Black Power--and upsetting a whole lot of people with it, too. Whitney Young and Roy Wilkins pulled out of the march because of it. Black Power meant different things to different people, see. To some people it meant black pride and black people owning businesses and having a voice in politics. That's what it meant to me. To other people it meant self-defense against attacks like the one on Meredith. But to others it meant a revolutionary bag.

I wanted to see people free, but I didn't see any reason for us to kill each other. Why should we kill each other, I thought, when we can talk it out? Stokely said I was the one person who was most dangerous to his movement at the time because people would listen to me. Personally, I'll take a lick on one cheek, but I won't take it if it comes to the second cheek. The Bible speaks of self-defense; you're not supposed to let another man take your life. But I was out there to preserve life, to extend it, not to take it, and I didn't want to see the country torn up, either."


He understood the BPP's reasoning for picking up guns but he just didn't want to see any violence himself... He didn't want the rioting and the burning up of the neighborhoods. He didn't think that people should *fight*... He felt that if we all worked hard, it would turn out alright.

"Learn, not burn" was his catchphrase at the time.

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Strangeways
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Fri Jan-13-12 01:11 PM

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30. "RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

No.....you left out that "racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,".......thats your delusional opinion.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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38. "???"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

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Strangeways
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Fri Jan-13-12 01:13 PM

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32. "RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

U are a racist to make such statements like that.....

"racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,"

  

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Dr Claw
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Fri Jan-13-12 01:16 PM

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34. "he doesn't believe that"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

he's saying that Black Conservatives believe that (or rather, they take that as a public stance)

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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40. "LOL yeah"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>(or rather,
>they take that as a public stance)

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Bombastic
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168. "damn, before you reply twice try to read once n/m"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>U are a racist to make such statements like that.....
>
>"racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,"

  

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Strangeways
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219. "RE: damn, before you reply twice try to read once n/m"
In response to Reply # 168


          

yes....I did read it well....next time, Think before you type....FOOL.


>>U are a racist to make such statements like that.....
>>
>>"racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,"
>

  

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Strangeways
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Fri Jan-13-12 01:32 PM

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49. "RE: James Brown was scared of revolution. (Long read (c) bammer)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I was just listening to the 45s to dont be a dropout and oh, mary dont you weep from the king labels this morning. dont be a dropout can be referred to all people.

  

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Artful Dodger
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52. "James wasn't a sellout - he just wasn't a saviour"
In response to Reply # 49
Fri Jan-13-12 01:43 PM by Artful Dodger

          

nor should we expect him or any other entertainer to be.

Why hold him accountable for the same things we not holding others for... and trust that list is way long.

I mean to be frank, singing about Revolution on stage at the summer jam isn't exactly revolution either.

Not to mention most of our fav revolting artists, FELA, BOB - loved some white women, lived quite comfortably, and clearly took advatange of perks as oppossed to forming any real revolution. hell punk bands are more revolutionary than any of these artists. So.

and to be fair there isn't anything revolutionary about running for President, something both James and Fela spoke on.

  

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SoWhat
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59. "i think the point is"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

that James's image/iconography got co-opted by the Black Power movement or was lumped in w/Black Power movement's sentiments by 3rd parties due to 'Say It Loud'. but a close reading of the lyrics to his other songs and of public statements he made around that time leaves one w/the impression that James wasn't down w/the BPM, in spite of the lyrics to 'Say It Loud'. in fact, it seems James was a conservative. so it's kinda curious that the conservatives haven't used his music or his example to gain ground w/the Blacks.

that's all. i don't think AF said James _should have_ been down w/the BPM or that he had some special duty to be political above that of other singers.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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61. "I think if anyone knows anything about James they would know"
In response to Reply # 59


          

he was about black Pride... not a black power movement...

all you have to do is look at any of his soul train interviews and you'll see he was playing conservative ball. My point? So was everyone else.

No one started or tried to start any kind of revolution.
That's all I'm saying.

  

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SoWhat
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70. "okay."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

sure.

fuck you.

  

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OldPro
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104. "RE: I think if anyone knows anything about James they would know"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

>he was about black Pride... not a black power movement...

You really think most people today can separate the two?

It's been over 40 years man.


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Artful Dodger
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112. "But that doesn't change what he stood for. History isn't undone."
In response to Reply # 104


          

I mean I completely see what your saying but that doesn't change anything really. That's what he stood for - the misconception is on the people actually.

  

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SoWhat
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115. "the ppl and the media, yes."
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

those are the folks who aligned JB w/the Black Power movement based on 'Say It Loud'.

'oops' on them.

^ that's 1/2 the post. LOL

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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118. "*daps* yep.. it's like the saw the Afro logo and thought black power"
In response to Reply # 115


          

or something. his songs became anthems but it was pretty clear that the world's biggest star wasn't a revolutioanry. Savvy with the rhinestone belt buckle's, but that's as far out as it was going.
lol.

  

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SoWhat
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121. "yup. LOL"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Fri Jan-13-12 03:32 PM

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127. "that's why I pointed out to him James didn't do anything wrong."
In response to Reply # 121
Fri Jan-13-12 03:34 PM by Artful Dodger

          

it's no different than Jay and the illuminati - once ppl catch wind of something...

and just like now in 2012 you cannot expect Jay to stand up on TV and say "the black man is God" despite the fact he is God body, well...

I mean the man is running an empire. James was no different - but when you compare james to

The Ohio Players
Bill Withers
Marvin Gaye
Teddy P
The Commodores -

he was radical in every sense. At least he spoke on items, even if he wasn't 100.

  

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SoWhat
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128. "i didn't think he said James did anything wrong."
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

as i read the original post it was about other ppl misconstruing/misunderstanding James's stances based on some of his song lyrics.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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131. "I dunno - I mean he sorta painted him as an uncle tom bafoon."
In response to Reply # 128
Fri Jan-13-12 03:49 PM by Artful Dodger

          

America Is My Home

Living In America

Truth is James represented the same thing every succesful entertainer then and now represent - trying to stay there.

Prince might honestly be the most revolutionary artist of all times when you consider how he openly challenged the machine despite his success long before the internet became chic.

I mean - say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud wasn't a direct response to the panthers as it was to the climate of the people.

Now talking loud and saying nothing? Might have a point.

But to call Say It Loud 'obsolete'... that's a hell of stetch and personal assumption as that record means many things to many ppl.


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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132. "It's only Uncle Tom buffoonery if you think it is."
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

It's well known that I have *some* conservative leanings, so I am definitely not hating on James for his views. If anything, I'm intrigued.

Besides, how can you say I am painting James as an Uncle Tom with "America is my Home" and "Living in America"... HE made those songs, not me! It's not like I fabricated some songs and claimed he did them when he didn't.

If YOU think those songs are Tommish, then you think James was a Tom. I happen to not think that, though.

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Artful Dodger
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134. "Yes to me calling it "The Conservative Manifesto" would be &"
In response to Reply # 132
Fri Jan-13-12 04:04 PM by Artful Dodger

          

this:

"That is basically the Black Conservative manifesto right there, ain't it? Only thing he left out was "racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination," but other than that he hit most of the main talking points:

-America is great as it is, the greatest country in the world
-Only in America can anybody be anything they want, regardless of birth or class
-Look at me: I came from nothing and I made it!
-What Black people need to do is stop complaining and making excuses, educate themselves, learn to speak proper English, work hard, save their money and pay their taxes… and then we all can make it"

However - this is indeed a dope post and a great idea, glad your brought it up despite the fact I don't agree with some of it.




  

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SoWhat
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138. "JAMES called 'Say It Loud' obsolete, not Afkap."
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

he said that in 1986. AF merely posted James's quote.

i think you've read more into the post than was there.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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154. "Regardless of who said it - it's not an obsolete record."
In response to Reply # 138
Fri Jan-13-12 06:15 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Although James saying it is a bit telling - either way that record hold's a lot of weight with a lot of people regardless of reason or accuracy of reason. It affected many. It's a staple in Black Americana if you will, even if the author of said record denounces it.

James' entire career is not at all unlike most American entertainers...

there is what think we know about them
and then there is the truth.

I mean he's right, you shouldn't have to tell someone what race they are be he is sorely underestimating the identity issues faced during that time and how the record changed alot. i mean musically, not so much but the social impact was HUGE. To this day we are all very familiar with that piece.

  

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Harlepolis
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62. ""the salvation of the Black community lay in Black capitalism""
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jan-13-12 01:49 PM by Harlepolis

  

          

I.E. The American dream for every black artist who made it, mainstream wise.

I see some parallels with Bill Cosby too. Even though he considers himself to be a liberal - he have always embraced conservative values, much like JB. And both went for a total and complete creative control over their art and "products".




  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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64. "yep on Cos. nm"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

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Artful Dodger
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67. "Try every successful artist - black or white."
In response to Reply # 62
Fri Jan-13-12 01:52 PM by Artful Dodger

          

John Lennon was the ONLY one of massive success ready to really get down.

  

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Dr Claw
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75. "I usually give people of that generation a 'pass'"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>I see some parallels with Bill Cosby too. Even though he
>considers himself to be a liberal - he have always embraced
>conservative values, much like JB. And both went for a total
>and complete creative control over their art and "products".

because of the conditions in which they were raised (generally), and if many of them were not like James (who very well came up in Jim Crow), they were aware in some way of the BS that was going on.

The Herman Cain example given above represented that ideal. in that generation, it wasn't seen as so much a reaction to "radical Blackness" to feel the way they did (on social issues and what not)...it's just what it is. My one uncle nearest me is the same as the Cos... and I hear a lot of the same talk in casual conversation. I take Larry Elder and the like as being more of the "we ain't like THOSE Black people" stance.


Before Herm became too obvious with the comedy, and the cloud of sexual harrassment charges, and Dear Ginger came in to kick that door down, he was seen as an attractive candidate because, of his age, he had that authenticity behind the Black Conservative ideal, as he came up during that era. He represented an "Old School" that doesn't really exist as much today, as the generation is passing.

There definitely seems to be a direct line to those who lived in those times and "made it" and these kind of viewpoints.

  

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Artful Dodger
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81. "I mean pretty much. Hence my statement almost every entertainer"
In response to Reply # 75
Fri Jan-13-12 02:07 PM by Artful Dodger

          

got down like that. James thing was self pride, cultural pride. He wasnt nearly as political or associated to any politics as suggested.
He wasn't co-opted by anyone or any movement - however his songs became anthems. I mean we could sit here all day naming artists, black or white, who played it safe.

Hell Prince didn't even admit he was black until 5 years into his career.

  

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Harlepolis
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110. "What Do U Think of African Immigrants Who Profess These"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

values though?

My father changed his stance, politically. Even though he's an African immigrant, he came to this country in the midst of a madhouse period(1965). He fully related to the BPM, he still remembers it with reverence, but when the 90s came, he leaned more toward conservatism. Which doesn't surprise me, some of the basic values in conservatism mirror Islam lifestyle, which is our family's religious belief. Unlike William H. Cosby, my father doesn't affiliate himself with any political party, but in terms of values and lifestyles, he def leans toward conservatism.

Sorry for going off-topic, AFKAP lol,,,,

  

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Dr Claw
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119. "Well, we're all entitled to change our views over time."
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

>values though?
>
>My father changed his stance, politically. Even though he's an
>African immigrant, he came to this country in the midst of a
>madhouse period(1965). He fully related to the BPM, he still
>remembers it with reverence, but when the 90s came, he leaned
>more toward conservatism. Which doesn't surprise me, some of
>the basic values in conservatism mirror Islam lifestyle, which
>is our family's religious belief. Unlike William H. Cosby, my
>father doesn't affiliate himself with any political party, but
>in terms of values and lifestyles, he def leans toward
>conservatism.
>
>Sorry for going off-topic, AFKAP lol,,,,

I'd find that kind of interesting to see how he got from A to B (or rather, from A to probably Q). After that much time here... and where did your family first come down?

  

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Harlepolis
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129. "Somalia"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

  

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Dr Claw
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157. "Hmm... you know, I can see how one would switch up"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

knowing the tiny bit of Somalia's history that I do
and especially after having been in America for 45 years

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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130. "ain't no such thing as off-topic to me."
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

>Sorry for going off-topic, AFKAP lol,,,,

A great conversation should extend its tendrils in many directions, imho!

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OldPro
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Fri Jan-13-12 03:01 PM

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107. "I strongly disagree on Cosby"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

I'll have to come back to this later when i have time

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Artful Dodger
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109. "But you see Cos would be like James - personal and private lives"
In response to Reply # 107
Fri Jan-13-12 03:12 PM by Artful Dodger

          

are just two different things.

Cos' best friend is Hugh Heffner... right?

yet who's done more for HBCU's?

james might now have made all the right moves and decisions... and was terribly off point about alot, but he was a beacon of Black Pride in terms of entertainment and arguably ushered a new era of entertainers at least sharing that pride whereas before they couldn't.

I think Kap's post is good - just not completely on point through and through but hey that's just my opinion.

My point? it's unfair to just call the man out - no different than Malcolm being called out. For me it changes nothing.

  

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OldPro
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Fri Jan-13-12 03:13 PM

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117. "Im generalizing here but"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

Southern blacks were Lincoln republicans

Northeastern blacks were FDR democrats

it's a totally different mindset

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Artful Dodger
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Fri Jan-13-12 03:20 PM

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123. "Yeah but success was on all their minds... I mean let's be real"
In response to Reply # 117
Fri Jan-13-12 03:21 PM by Artful Dodger

          

we are calling Cosby - a man known for his wild parties at the Hef mansion conservative cause of his public politics, not his personal life. That's my point. Often times I think we as fans and listeners tend to think we know folks - the truth is - we do not.

Take Prince - every interview with Prince he's meek, kind, and gentle. That man is a monster sometimes. I love his work, but the truth is the truth.

This is no different. On paper Cos rep the same thing james repped

self made
black and proud
intelligent
and somehow relatible to many beyond his immediate scope of stereotype.

Cos was running a business. Ppl will call Cos a sellout all day but do they know if it wasn't for Cos "Sweet Sweet Back's Bad Ass Song" would have never been completed? He helped fund it's completion, out of pocket, without any interest or 'when is my money coming back'? There was a time when a few HBCU's almost closed until Cos came along with a check.

That being said you hear Rich talk about him and he hated the way he had power - but an all white staff on set and off. *shrugs*

very complicated times. Real easy in 2012 to make fun of them withtout giving consideration to all aspects.

  

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OldPro
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142. "OK I have some time now... guess I'll start here"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

Harlepolis said something that bothers me every time I hear it phrased this way

"I see some parallels with Bill Cosby too. Even though he considers himself to be a liberal - he have always embraced conservative values, much like JB"

It just shows how good a job the right has done in co-opting the idea of values. 40 years ago we'd never had to qualify a liberal as also having "conservative" values... these were values just about everyone grew up with. So saying Cos and JB shared some core values really isn't saying much in regards to how they viewed society. During their time racism was everywhere but it operated and was accepted at different levels in different regions of the country. There is no way this can't not impact a young man growing up and shape how he sees the world. Some of this may be my northern bias coming out, but I really don't see JB as all that deep a thinker. As is the case with many people that call themselves conservative today, those types are more quick to accept and not question the status quo. The image of John Wayne's America paints a simple and proud reality and they long to be part of it. Cos on the other hand comes from a strong educational background and an environment where black intellectualism isn't just confined inside the walls of black only institutions. Seeking out knowledge is a "liberal" act in the truest sense of the word. I just don't think Cos & JB are even close to having the same mindset... they were both black men that happen to grow up to be rich & successful. I think it pretty much stops there.


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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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144. "I agree with just about everything you said. nm"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

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OldPro
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145. "Damn maybe I better read what i wrote again lol"
In response to Reply # 144


  

          


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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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148. "Hahaha... Make no mistake, there are some fine points"
In response to Reply # 145


  

          

that I would probably not mind flossing out with you,* but this post is already pretty cluttered.. so maybe some other time.

But the broad strokes of it... yeah.



*mainly the suggestion that conservatives don't think deeply--I know you were speaking specifically of JB, and I agree there... but there was also the implication that conservatives in general are not in touch with reality. Also: I would like to talk about (what I see as) the difference between a "regular" conservative and a Black Conservative.

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OldPro
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150. "OK now I feel better"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

>that I would probably not mind flossing out with you,* but
>this post is already pretty cluttered.. so maybe some other
>time.
>
>But the broad strokes of it... yeah.
>
>
>
>*mainly the suggestion that conservatives don't think
>deeply--I know you were speaking specifically of JB, and I
>agree there... but there was also the implication that
>conservatives in general are not in touch with reality. Also:
>I would like to talk about (what I see as) the difference
>between a "regular" conservative and a Black Conservative.

Let me add there are knee jerk liberals too... some of those cats are just as out of touch with reality (see Dennis Kucinich). I just think as a whole people that call themselves conservative today aren't all that interested in accepting ideas and lifestyles they weren't exposed to growing up.

But yeah let's save this for a rainy day
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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152. "word. nm"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

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Harlepolis
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133. "I Didn't Say They Share The Same Political Stance,,,"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

Just a few similarities on their values, based on their actions/statements/art. Dare I say, those similarities are more than a few, even.

  

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OldPro
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151. "Let me be clear... I wasn't jumping on you"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

I just think we've lost the connection to what used to be seen as just plain everyday values... and mistakenly draw some social & political parallels based on images that word conjures up today.
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
Bringing Together Five Decades of R&B/Funk/Soul/Dance

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Artful Dodger
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153. "Exactly which is why saying Jb was scared of revolution"
In response to Reply # 151


          

isn't fair and a bit short sighted.

I mean I get where he's going but...

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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68. "James Brown speaks on his feelings about 'Say It Loud' (1986)"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jan-13-12 01:53 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

The song is obsolete now. Really, it was obsolete when I cut it, but it was needed. You shouldn't have to tell people what race you are, and you shouldn't have to tell people they should be proud. They should feel it just from living where they do. But it was necessary to teach pride then, and I think the song did a lot of good for a lot of people. That song scared people, too, Many white people didn't understand it any better than many Afro-Americans understood "America Is My Home." People called "Black and Proud" militant and angry--maybe because of the line about dying on your feet instead of living on your knees. But really, if you listen to it, it sounds like a children's song. That's why I had children in it, so children who heard it could grow up feeling pride. It's a rap song, too.

--from James Brown, The Godfather of Soul: An Autobiography

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Artful Dodger
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69. "Cause he was about Pride and the term "Black" was revolutionar..."
In response to Reply # 68
Fri Jan-13-12 02:09 PM by Artful Dodger

          

it was still considered a risky term at that point - colored and negro were still very much on the table.

Just listen to Malcolm's speeches around that time.

Hell anyone's.

He might have been the first popular artist/mainstream artist to use the term *shrugs* - not saying he was but definitely pushed it.

Also that song is not obsolete at all, it's a staple in African American culture.

  

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Dr Claw
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76. "I like how he framed that."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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80. "Yeah, he doesn't trash the song altogether"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

but he de-politicizes it... makes it less about community and civil rights and more like just a jingle for personal self-esteem like India.Arie's "I Am Not My Hair."

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Harlepolis
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Fri Jan-13-12 04:01 PM

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135. "Can Ya'll See Something Wrong With This? lol"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

http://youtu.be/hKCsUWx-QoA

  

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Artful Dodger
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136. "That was his, Cos' and Flip's hangout. "
In response to Reply # 135


          

And for most musicians being on TV at all during that time was 'making it big'.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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137. "Hef was extremely progressive"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

He was one of the first cats to feature Black entertainers on his show regularly... and to treat them as equals. I believe Cos even guest-hosted the show a few times.

Playboy After Dark was just the hippest show to hang out on. I guess the modern equivalent would be... IS there a modern equivalent? I think the closest would be Fallon lol

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SoWhat
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139. "there is no modern talk show equivalent."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

it's definitely not Fallon. LOL

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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140. "umm... is (was) Arsenio close enough?"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

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SoWhat
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141. "there isn't 1."
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

it's something we 'lost' long ago.

it's okay.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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143. "yeah... *sigh* nm"
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

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SoWhat
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146. "Charlie Rose + Fallon + Daily Show...?"
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

^ we'd need a hybrid of those 3 to replace Hef's show.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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156. "Yeah your right Cos hosted more than anyone else"
In response to Reply # 137
Fri Jan-13-12 06:07 PM by Artful Dodger

          

besides Hef and his girl Barbie Benton at the time if I'm right.

Paul Mooney was a regular backup dancer on the show.

That show broke alot of records and artists and was considered extremely cutting edge for it's time.

There was a rumor that there is an episode where one of the Panthers is actually there with his then white actress girlfriend. Yep - him.
Yep her. And a groovy goonie. crazy.

Although I have never seen it, wouldn't shock me.

  

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lonesome_d
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79. "isn't calling Hank Ballard "a sideman" a bit unfair?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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82. "Hank had his own illustrious career"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

but when he was with James... yeah, he kinda was a sideman.

You don't think?

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lonesome_d
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86. "I know Hank way more for his Midnighters days"
In response to Reply # 82


          

most of which stems from having parents who were teens when he was turning out Work With Me Annie, Annie Had A Baby, Finger Poppin' Time, The Twist.

As for when he was with James, I don't know enough about their relationship or his role w/in the JB organization to say. Was he a background singer in James's touring act, or just one of the artists in JB's stable that JB wrote and produced for? That would make a difference to me; I mean, you wouldn't call Solomon Burke a Joe Henry sideman.

Also of note is that quite a few websites indicate that Ballard (particularly his exploration of 'the raw' within R&B) was a major influence on a young James. Dunno if that's a big deal; obviously James was the bigger star, but I'd think it still goes against the idea of him being just a 'sideman.'

*shrug* hey, I had to nitpick something, right?

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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"Well, I think the relationship was like"


  

          

the new star reaching back and giving a hand to his old hero.

Ballard was one of the artists in the stable, and I believe he also did "hype man" duties like Bobby Byrd. I don't think he did backing vocals, but he probably was an opening act.

In the end, I have to cede that you are right... "sideman" is definitely a mischaracterization of the relationship!

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Jakob Hellberg
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Fri Jan-13-12 02:47 PM

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99. "He also did an hilarious recitation on ''get on the good foot''..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

This one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Z_7ojirRc SO pompous!

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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101. "This was the height of James' self-mythologization era"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

I love it!

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84. "What if James Brown were 'conscious'?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

We began to listen to the music of the rhythm and blues people, soul music… The big hero for the poets was James Brown. We all thought that James Brown was a magnificent poet, and we all envied him and wished we could do what he did. If the poets could do that, we would just take over America. Suppose James Brown had consciousness. We used to have big arguments like that. It was like saying, "Suppose James Brown read Fanon."

--Larry Neal, 1987

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SoWhat
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89. "see also:"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

http://www.filmsy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/leonardo.jpg

LOL

in other words, his career and personal life would've gone completely differently if he'd gone conscious.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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100. "Ha! Yeah... I can't blame him for not going that way"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

(though J. Edgar kept a file on him anyway)

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Jakob Hellberg
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Fri Jan-13-12 02:43 PM

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96. "Funny thing is that even the label buried ''America is my home''..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jan-13-12 02:44 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

It was not promoted (it apparently still made #13 on the R&B charts according to wiki but that's low compared to most other JB's vocal-songs in that era not coun4ting christmas songs and stupid standards), went fast OOP and not included on any of James Brown's albums on King in that era-all his other singles were outside of some instrumentals. Outside of some cheapo-comps, it didn't even see a proper reissue until the FANTASTIC Hip-O select comps. Basically, I think even Syd Nathan who was an old conservative white guy knew how much ''damage'' that song could make to JB's image.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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98. "yeah, it was really hard to find for years"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

I think I first heard it myself a little bit over a year ago

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Artful Dodger
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102. "on another note ya know what just came to mind?"
In response to Reply # 98


          

that Richard Pryor skit with the Black Panthers - I think Tim Reid was playing the leader... talk about pressuring entertainers.

Rich did call that out.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Jan-13-12 02:55 PM

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103. "Couple of major problems with your assertions..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>( http://youtu.be/dDH9Jq5AWkQ )
>
>Seriously, though… Just some stuff I've had on my mind this
>morning.
>
>So I'm playing some James Brown (as I do everyday) and the
>classic "Funky President (People It's Bad)" comes on… and
>while I'm listening to it and I find myself wondering…
>
>"Why has the Godfather of Soul not been 'adopted' by the Black
>Conservative movement in the way that some other figures such
>as Zora Neale Hurston have been?"
>
>He definitely fits the profile. James Brown was proud of his
>standing a Negro Horatio Alger character and that informed his
>values and ideals as a Black man. If you listen to his
>interviews, speeches and his "sermons" in song, it becomes
>clear that his ideas of Black ascension were staunchly in the
>Booker T. Washingtonian mold. For example, take the
>controversial 1968 track "America is My Home":
>
>http://youtu.be/252TrvSPoJg


and I'll break this down in segments...

First of all your usage of the term Conservative....as it pertains to Black Conservatives.

It's a fairly common error for people to apply the label of conservative to historical events or people simply because those events or people part of, or aligned with the "Republican Party". 9 times out of 10 those claims miss the mark because they leave out the most important contextual item involved in this....

Black Americans who were born and raised in the South after the Marcus Garvey movement and before the Civil Rights Act were very often Republicans. What many people do is go back to that time, use the current alleged definition of "conservatism" and apply it to those people claiming that they embody the conservative ideas as they are defined TODAY. But that completely misses the mark because of the fact that those Black people who were aligned with the Republican party and/or its views did so because during that time it was the DEMOCRATIC PARTY who was standing in the way of Black progress, and Civil Rights. Beyond Abraham Lincoln's emancipation situation, the Republican party had decades of history of being the party that view the rights of Black people as being of value to the country. The so-called Dixie-crat Democrats where the ones who stood in door ways of schools to stop intergration...in fact even into the 70's, one of the most Democratic big cities in one of the most liberal states, Boston, MA you saw riots where people who were Democrats rebelled against intergration...

obviously things changed...the members of the Democratic party who were so against Civil Rights left to go to the Republican party, and those in the Republican party who were for Civil rights went to the Democratic party...... This started to evolve into the 60's up until today where now the Democratic party is for Civil rights, for equal protection under the law and general equality...and the Republican party stands against Civil Rights...the voting rights act...and promotes a representative government that has FEWER participants in the democracy..

All that to say that for a people who were from James Brown's era....born and raised in the South..who went on to become successful in a Capitalistic sense, often were aligned with the Republican party during that time....Simply because they grew up in a time and a place where Democrats where not only trying to keep them down, but trying to kill them.

that's where you see Black so-called Republicans during that era..

but the problem with labeling them as being Conservatives...using today's ideal of conservatism brings up another problem.

It assumes that anyone who was trying to be an entrepenuer...anyone who was dedicated to being an American...anyone who valued education....anyone who would fight for their country.....All of those attributes are exclusively conservative. That is a very common misconception....you even see current Republicans try and claim Dr. Martin Luther King for their own because of his words about judging the content of one's character....

The fact of the matter is that those attributes do not belong to ANY political persuasion.... and to go back in hindsight and try to apply them to people without the appropriate social context moves towards inacuracy...



I mean like wow! That is basically the Black Conservative
>manifesto right there, ain't it? Only thing he left out was
>"racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,"
>but other than that he hit most of the main talking points:

Min. Farrakhan's book Torchlight for America focuses on self-sufficiency....doing for self instead of the government doing for you.... Why isn't that heralded as the ideal for so-called Black Conservatism???

the Black Panther party entering the capital of California with loaded guns to demonstrate their rights to bear arms.......and the changing of laws AFTER that (some of the first modern gun control legislation was prompted by a reaction the Panthers doing this) Why doesn't the NRA view the Black Panthers as patriots for boldly exercising their constitutional rights???

The reason you don't see that is because those things really arent exclusive tennants of so-called conservatism.

Black people doing for themselves....risking their lives to be treated equally under the law....fighting for their country....those things were done out of a survival necessity...not to comply with the tennants of a political party or movement...

Conservative ideals by and large are a ex-post facto fallacy...


I'll address the misconception about James Brown's association with the Black power movement in a while...





>
>-America is great as it is, the greatest country in the world
>-Only in America can anybody be anything they want, regardless
>of birth or class
>-Look at me: I came from nothing and I made it!
>-What Black people need to do is stop complaining and making
>excuses, educate themselves, learn to speak proper English,
>work hard, save their money and pay their taxes… and then we
>all can make it
>
>So why then have Conservatives NOT appropriated James Brown?
>
>I have a few theories on this: for one, it probably would have
>been hard to do when he was alive. James was sort of skittish
>about allying himself with political factions after the
>backlash he suffered from his Black and/or progressive
>audience in the 1960s when he was down with H. Hubert Humphrey
>and seemed to indicate support for the Vietnam war, and then
>again in the 1970s when he endorsed the reelection efforts of
>Richard Nixon. The Godfather was much too smart to risk that
>again by getting into bed with the Right.
>
>But more importantly, I think, is the fact that it is very
>difficult convincingly sell James Brown as a conservative icon
>because he and his music are so inextricably associated in the
>public imagination with the radical Black Power movement. This
>is due, of course, to his popular 1968 anthem "Say It Loud
>(I'm Black and I'm Proud)" which was essentially the
>soundtrack of the Black Power and Black Pride movements.
>
>(Add to that, if you will, two records produced by James Brown
>but performed by his sideman Hank Ballard in 1968 and 69:
>"Blackenized" and "How You Gonna Get Respect (When You Haven't
>Cut Your Process Yet)")
>
>Because of this James Brown is often thought of as a
>figurehead of the Black Power movement… But the truth is that
>James Brown did not think much of the Black Power movement. He
>didn't like SNCC. He certainly did not approve of the Black
>Panther Party and did not want to associated with any kind of
>"revolution" (not a literal one, anyway… which is why he named
>his 1971 live album Revolution of the Mind).
>
>To James Brown, the salvation of the Black community lay in
>Black capitalism. Which is why he was always quick to cite his
>ownership of Black radio stations and other businesses as HIS
>definition of "Black Power."
>
>It was well-known in Black Power circles that James was not
>"conscious"… But he wielded an immense power as one of the
>most successful and popular Black entertainers among
>working-class Negroes and the BPM wanted to harness that power
>for their cause. Also, there was a tremendous amount of
>respect for his artistic innovations that created a style of
>music that was aggressively, transcendentally "Black"… But
>they knew that James Brown's mind was not on the same
>wavelength as theirs.
>
>I should also mention that James didn't particularly think
>much of "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)"… He didn't
>like the song much, and he only recorded it (along with the
>Ballard pro-Black anthems) under pressure from Black radicals
>and to appease the Black audience he had alienated with
>"America is my Home." But by 1971, James had put that process
>back in his hair and by 1974 or 75, he had stopped performing
>"Say It Loud" because he didn't really believe in that song.
>As much as James Brown helped score the Black Power movement,
>his own politics were much closer to someone like Larry
>Elder.
>
>***
>While this dichotomy between iconography of James Brown, the
>Black Power SYMBOL and the politics of James Brown the MAN has
>been on mind for a few months, I'll admit that I **really**
>got to thinking about this now partly because of some
>exchanges I had with my perennial rival Warren Coolidge…
>Y'know, when he was going on about how James Brown was like
>the king of Black Power and liberation and how he paved the
>way for real musical rebels like Bob Marley and Fela Kuti and
>did everything they would later do and so on…
>
>I know Coolidge was laying it on thick in an effort to needle
>me, but at the same time, I suspected that he believed some of
>it. Because I know a lot of people do. But I wonder: does it
>matter? If it takes an imaginary James Brown to inspire a
>nation of millions, does it matter that the real one probably
>would not have approved of it?
>
>
>(Been ages since I made a long rambling post… Gentlemen, start
>your Colin Powells! But if you want to seriously discuss this,
>I am game. And believe it or not, I didn't post this to start
>no trouble... so keep the drama in your purse)

  

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Artful Dodger
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Fri Jan-13-12 03:00 PM

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105. "this quote - nails it."
In response to Reply # 103
Fri Jan-13-12 03:02 PM by Artful Dodger

          

and my guess would be growing up in America... maybe this is why we can see it and he cannot? Generally it's the age gap thing, but that isn't the case here. While you cats are definitely older than I am, I can still completely see this.

"It assumes that anyone who was trying to be an entrepenuer...anyone who was dedicated to being an American...anyone who valued education....anyone who would fight for their country.....All of those attributes are exclusively conservative. That is a very common misconception....you even see current Republicans try and claim Dr. Martin Luther King for their own because of his words about judging the content of one's character.... "

Now... take this post..

what exactly is different about this post on James
than say Sly being hammered by the Panthers? Not much.

That being said this is a good post.

  

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SoWhat
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106. "*sigh* *exits post*"
In response to Reply # 103
Fri Jan-13-12 03:01 PM by SoWhat

  

          

b/c now you 2 are about to ruin it w/y'all's nonsense.

oh well.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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108. "*Holds door* we just talking like everyone else but if it's too much..."
In response to Reply # 106


          

  

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SoWhat
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111. "WC & AF"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

not you.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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114. "man I was wondering why you called me out... lol.. "
In response to Reply # 111


          

but what WC wrote is good money man.

Let's see this out.

Thanks for that book link btw... SLY ALL WEEKEND LONG! (David Lee Roth Kick!)

  

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The Wordsmith
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125. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          


Since 1976

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width_scaled/hash/e6/c7/e6c7ca608ccfe3b0915675500232d783.jpg

  

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OldPro
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113. "I'm glad you brought this up man"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>First of all your usage of the term Conservative....as it
>pertains to Black Conservatives.
>
>It's a fairly common error for people to apply the label of
>conservative to historical events or people simply because
>those events or people part of, or aligned with the
>"Republican Party". 9 times out of 10 those claims miss the
>mark because they leave out the most important contextual item
>involved in this....
>
>Black Americans who were born and raised in the South after
>the Marcus Garvey movement and before the Civil Rights Act
>were very often Republicans. What many people do is go back to
>that time, use the current alleged definition of
>"conservatism" and apply it to those people claiming that they
>embody the conservative ideas as they are defined TODAY. But
>that completely misses the mark because of the fact that those
>Black people who were aligned with the Republican party and/or
>its views did so because during that time it was the
>DEMOCRATIC PARTY who was standing in the way of Black
>progress, and Civil Rights. Beyond Abraham Lincoln's
>emancipation situation, the Republican party had decades of
>history of being the party that view the rights of Black
>people as being of value to the country. The so-called
>Dixie-crat Democrats where the ones who stood in door ways of
>schools to stop intergration...in fact even into the 70's, one
>of the most Democratic big cities in one of the most liberal
>states, Boston, MA you saw riots where people who were
>Democrats rebelled against intergration...

Because this is at the heart of my objection to what was said about Cos up above. Cosby was from the northeast not the south and that really does make a big difference. I know you posted this as somewhat of a defense for JB but I really do think he and Cos were coming from different places.

I'll come back to this sometime this afternoon.


_________________________________
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Artful Dodger
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116. "Man I can't wait.... "
In response to Reply # 113


          

this is why I pointed out MLK and JFK earlier..

I mean when you speak of James and his actions you really have to consider so many items... it's really easy to just throw darts at the man.

Let's take Fela, you could tear him apart too if you wanted but that wouldn't change his impact.

  

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Dr Claw
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122. "oh, I certainly would agree with the idea"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

>Because this is at the heart of my objection to what was said
>about Cos up above. Cosby was from the northeast not the south
>and that really does make a big difference. I know you posted
>this as somewhat of a defense for JB but I really do think he
>and Cos were coming from different places.
>
>I'll come back to this sometime this afternoon.

that Cosby won't be ever confused with Herman Cain from a political stance. Cosby will outright address racism if you give him that floor in a public forum, esp. now that he's older... though he comes from a generation where that kind of thing just didn't happen.

So does James. I think the two probably had some common ground.


and if we're talking "conservatism", the Democrats of the past were a mostly Southern political party that had a different face in the North (where they were closely aligned with labor)...the Southern Dems were definitely more in line with what is often said as "conservative" on Fox News today.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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124. "Cosby helped finance Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song!"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

A BPP-endorsed, semi-pornographic movie about a gigolo who goes on the run in the "freak" underground after killing a couple of cops.

James Brown would NEVER have had any parts of that.

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Artful Dodger
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126. "that why I pointed it out - but he didn't know that when he invested."
In response to Reply # 124
Fri Jan-13-12 03:59 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Let's be clear. Their support came after the film's release.

James... well...

YOu see Cos did that for his friend, his fellow artist, and his buddy. However that wasn't public knowledge, at all in fact I found out while listening to Melvin and Mario discuss film making years ago and he'd stated that sure Cos helped fund SOME of it, however they coudlnt' go public cause it was upset his image with the networks. So basically Cos and James' nuts were being pinched by the same machine. Now once it became a successful film, even Cos saw the need and got with Sidney and the rest is history.

To say james woudlnt' have done that privately - I mean who can say. James was a much different person when the cameras where off.
Can't say one way or another. That would be an assumption.

Like Nas being a private associate producer for the Tribe doc...
who knew?

Not to mention your selling something here - cause there was NO black panther affiliation with the film while it was being made. The ideology and intention of the film harbored some of the same ideas but it wasn't until the film was released that the Panthers supported it making it a success.

Also again - this notion to sell the Panthers as only a band of thugs is by far not an accurate one.

  

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Dr Claw
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158. "70s Cosby is probably one of my favorite figures"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

in some ways I find it funny that he's known more for Pudding Pops than that era

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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120. "I (very deliberately) never used the word 'Republican' though"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

"Republican" talks more about a particular political/social club than it does a political ideology. Also, I knew that if I used that term, I would (rightfully) be challenged with that whole "the Republican party of today is not the same Republican party of back in the day" argument.

I do not know which, if any, James Brown was registered with. I am just saying that his values WERE conservative in an era when radicalism was the norm among Black youth.

>It assumes that anyone who was trying to be an
>entrepenuer...anyone who was dedicated to being an
>American...anyone who valued education....anyone who would
>fight for their country.....All of those attributes are
>exclusively conservative.

Being "dedicated to America" is not exclusively the domain of conservatives.

However, suggesting that America is fine as it is, and that it doesn't have to change so people should stop complaining and just work hard to make it in the system? That is conservative.

Fighting for your country is not exclusively conservative.

Fighting in or defending an unpopular war that is overwhelming viewed as unjust? That is conservative.


>Min. Farrakhan's book Torchlight for America focuses on
>self-sufficiency....doing for self instead of the government
>doing for you.... Why isn't that heralded as the ideal for
>so-called Black Conservatism???

As has been said above, apart from their racist ideologies, the NOI is VERY conservative... Right down to a preference for segregated society.


>Black people doing for themselves....risking their lives to be
>treated equally under the law....fighting for their
>country....those things were done out of a survival
>necessity...not to comply with the tennants of a political
>party or movement...
>
>Conservative ideals by and large are a ex-post facto
>fallacy...

How so? I happen to think the (Black) conservatives have quite a few good ideas, really...

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OldPro
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147. "Just wanted to say props to Kap for a great friday post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

these kind have been too few and far between lately
_________________________________
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http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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149. "It went MUCH better than I expected!"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

Thanks to everybody who contributed their insight!

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Artful Dodger
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155. "Yeah this post is doooppee... well done man damn good topic"
In response to Reply # 149
Fri Jan-13-12 06:09 PM by Artful Dodger

          

*

  

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Warren Coolidge
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159. "part II.... james brown the black revolutionary"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You make some comaprisons between james brown's lyrics and mission and booker t. Washington. Now I would argue that those comparisons are LESS about James personal political ideology and more about him communcicating a message in a manner that was pallatable for the mainstream of that day. You weren't gonna get on ed sullivan being a rebel.... Or even being a slick styled "street type bluesman".... The fact that being a "refined" man was a must to get play in that day should not be looked at as james making a purposeful polictical staement.... Because when he had the freedom and the platform and the voice to say what he wanted... His message was different....
When you look at what an artist has done.... You got to ask yourself if they could have reasobaly done anything else at the time.... If the answer is no you really have to be careful about assuming that what they did was part of a purposeful action insteadt of having no choice but to do it the way they did.

James brown in the early stages of his career did what he needed to do to be heard. Not to promote black conservatism.... It was about black survival and growth within a context of a time where blacks where not yet free, and very much under attack.

>He definitely fits the profile. James Brown whatas proud of his
>standing a Negro Horatio Alger character and that informed his
>values and ideals as a Black man. If you listen to his
>interviews, speeches and his "sermons" in song, it becomes
>clear that his ideas of Black ascension were staunchly in the
>Booker T. Washingtonian mold. For example, take the
>controversial 1968 track "America is My Home":
>
>http://youtu.be/252TrvSPoJg
>
>I mean like wow! That is basically the Black Conservative
>manifesto right there, ain't it? Only thing he left out was
>"racism is mostly a figment of Black people's imagination,"
>but other than that he hit most of the main talking points:
>
Why wasn't the message of racism is in your imagination there?? It wasn't there because genocidal level racism was very much a part of american society at the time. White american terrorists where bombimg churches and black communities..... Let's be clear.... The message of racism is in your imagination wast a part of jame browns music because at the time it very much was.... To the extreme...... Again I mention this because I see you applying the current so-called conservative model on a era that was still a part of the black. American genocide...




>-America is great as it is, the greatest country in the world
>-Only in America can anybody be anything they want, regardless
>of birth or class
>-Look at me: I came from nothing and I made it!
>-What Black people need to do is stop complaining and making
>excuses, educate themselves, learn to speak proper English,
>work hard, save their money and pay their taxes… and then we
>all can make it
>
Hold up..... Here is where we are going away from reality. Nothing about james browns music was about stop complaining about racism..... By saying got get yours.... Or do it for yourself....that doesn't meant that you should not "complain" about being mistreated and having your children killed. See... You are applying the bogus current black conservative propaganda on a time when its not applicable.

The idea of just bow down and accept white supremacy is bullsht today, and has no place being applied to a time where black people were being attacked....often legally.

That's a pro-colonialism attitude and although Black Americans may have promoted participation in american democracy... That should not be confused with bowing down and accepting genocide.

>So wy then have Conservatives NOT appropriated James Brown?

Because so called political conservatives promote the idea of the passive black man. The black man that is defined by white people... And although james brown was talking about participation in america... He was a self defined black man that promoted doing for his people. That contradicts black conservatives politically today. Herman cain had a minstral... Aw schucks element about him. Purposefully placinging himself beneath white people. That's the modern black conservative in a political sense.... And that aint james brown.....never was.
>
>I have a few theories on this: for one, it probably would have
>been hard to do when he was alive. James was sort of skittish
>about allying himself with political factions after the
>backlash he suffered from his Black and/or progressive
>audience in the 1960s when he was down with H. Hubert Humphrey
>and seemed to indicate support for the Vietnam war, and then
>again in the 1970s when he endorsed the reelection efforts of
>Richard Nixon. The Godfather was much too smart to risk that
>again by getting into bed with the Right.
>
>But more importantly, I
think, is the fact that it is very
>difficult convincingly sell James Brown as a conservative icon
>because he and his music are so inextricably associated in the
>public imagination with the radical Black Power movement. This
>is due, of course, to his popular 1968 anthem "Say It Loud
>(I'm Black and I'm Proud)" which was essentially the
>soundtrack of the Black Power and Black Pride movements.

Have to cut this response short but want to make sure to end this here because I'm about to provide some evidence that disputes the false premise that james brown's connection with the black power movement is merely because of say it loud. There is a lot more to it than that, and we need to get some accuracy in the historical contest here.

(Add to that, if you will, two records produced by James Brown
>but performed by his sideman Hank Ballard in 1968 and 69:
>"Blackenized" and "How You Gonna Get Respect (When You Haven't
>Cut Your Process Yet)")
>
>Because of this James Brown is often thought of as a
>figurehead of the Black Power movement… But the truth is that
>James Brown did not think much of the Black Power movement. He
>didn't like SNCC. He certainly did not approve of the Black
>Panther Party and did not want to associated with any kind of
>"revolution" (not a literal one, anyway… which is why he named
>his 1971 live album Revolution of the Mind).
>
>To James Brown, the salvation of the Black community lay in
>Black capitalism. Which is why he was always quick to cite his
>ownership of Black radio stations and other businesses as HIS
>definition of "Black Power."
>
>It was well-known in Black Power circles that James was not
>"conscious"… But he wielded an immense power as one of the
>most successful and popular Black entertainers among
>working-class Negroes and the BPM wanted to harness that power
>for their cause. Also, there was a tremendous amount of
>respect for his artistic innovations that created a style of
>music that was aggressively, transcendentally "Black"… But
>they knew that James Brown's mind was not on the same
>wavelength as theirs.
>
>I should also mention that James didn't particularly think
>much of "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)"… He didn't
>like the song much, and he only recorded it (along with the
>Ballard pro-Black anthems) under pressure from Black radicals
>and to appease the Black audience he had alienated with
>"America is my Home." But by 1971, James had put that process
>back in his hair and by 1974 or 75, he had stopped performing
>"Say It Loud" because he didn't really believe in that song.
>As much as James Brown helped score the Black Power movement,
>his own politics were much closer to someone like Larry
>Elder.
>
>***
>While this dichotomy between iconography of James Brown, the
>Black Power SYMBOL and the politics of James Brown the MAN has
>been on mind for a few months, I'll admit that I **really**
>got to thinking about this now partly because of some
>exchanges I had with my perennial rival Warren Coolidge…
>Y'know, when he was going on about how James Brown was like
>the king of Black Power and liberation and how he paved the
>way for real musical rebels like Bob Marley and Fela Kuti and
>did everything they would later do and so on…
>
>I know Coolidge was laying it on thick in an effort to needle
>me, but at the same time, I suspected that he believed some of
>it. Because I know a lot of people do. But I wonder: does it
>matter? If it takes an imaginary James Brown to inspire a
>nation of millions, does it matter that the real one probably
>would not have approved of it?
>
>
>(Been ages since I made a long rambling post… Gentlemen, start
>your Colin Powells! But if you want to seriously discuss this,
>I am game. And believe it or not, I didn't post this to start
>no trouble... so keep the drama in your purse)

  

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Artful Dodger
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228. "And Warren C Shuts it down and makes common sense outta this"
In response to Reply # 159
Tue Jan-17-12 12:56 PM by Artful Dodger

          

right in line with my statement -

To imply James was scared of revolution implies he was a punk or at the very least not a conscious man. I would never make that claim based on a few records, soul train interviews, and actions. James was a man loved around the world - very powerful and influential - an ambassador in the African American culture. He knew it made more sense to stay the course than put out a few sharp tongue controversial statements.

Asking James to stand up and preach pro-black nationalism at a time when everyone A) didn't agree with it and B) as if anyone was asking any other famous entertainter is nonsense.

I expect James not to do those things as much as I expect not to hear JayZ give a speech on race at a Nets halftime game.

Why? They are entertainers - not politicians or leaders of the community so I don't expect revolution from James Brown. I would think if you do - you may need your head examined. lol.

In fact, what artist did incite revolution? haha.. that would be none. daps to Mr. WC. Now this makes sense.

"You make some comaprisons between james brown's lyrics and mission and booker t. Washington. Now I would argue that those comparisons are LESS about James personal political ideology and more about him communcicating a message in a manner that was pallatable for the mainstream of that day. You weren't gonna get on ed sullivan being a rebel.... Or even being a slick styled "street type bluesman".... The fact that being a "refined" man was a must to get play in that day should not be looked at as james making a purposeful polictical staement.... Because when he had the freedom and the platform and the voice to say what he wanted... His message was different....
When you look at what an artist has done.... You got to ask yourself if they could have reasobaly done anything else at the time.... If the answer is no you really have to be careful about assuming that what they did was part of a purposeful action insteadt of having no choice but to do it the way they did.

James brown in the early stages of his career did what he needed to do to be heard. Not to promote black conservatism.... It was about black survival and growth within a context of a time where blacks where not yet free, and very much under attack."

I have no need to tear my heroes apart - they are men and not perfect.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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230. "."
In response to Reply # 228
Tue Jan-17-12 01:01 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

.

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Artful Dodger
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Tue Jan-17-12 01:18 PM

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231. "I agree with WC *shrugs*"
In response to Reply # 230


          

still a good post tho but I just find he's on point.

"James brown in the early stages of his career did what he needed to do to be heard. Not to promote black conservatism.... It was about black survival and growth within a context of a time where blacks where not yet free, and very much under attack."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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232. "FYI: James was 12 years into a successful career"
In response to Reply # 231


  

          

>"James brown in the early stages of his career did what he
>needed to do to be heard. Not to promote black
>conservatism.... It was about black survival and growth within
>a context of a time where blacks where not yet free, and very
>much under attack."

when he made "America is My Home"

He was not in "the early stages"

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Artful Dodger
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Tue Jan-17-12 01:27 PM

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233. "You are totally moving the goal posts here but hey..."
In response to Reply # 232
Tue Jan-17-12 01:32 PM by Artful Dodger

          

and that was WC's quote not mine. However keep in mind your acting like James' career was over with Body Heat (1980).. and as much as we all know the decline and your take on his stache - which is hilarious btw - his career wasn't over until he passed well into the 2000's. I mean safe to say we are judging the man by his actions - not his record release dates so WC's statement hold's true.

I personally am doing neither cause he was a hero to me but again - good post.

Regardless of what part of his career you highlight - James was an ambassador.

Look at James Brown as the Roots on Fallon playing "Lying Ass Bitch" then apologizing for it. They have bigger fish to fry.

Now - are the Roots scared of revolution?

Any black man with a Job in America knows why James did what he did and if it was deeper than that so be it.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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234. "I know whose quote it was; you cosigned it and praised its veracity"
In response to Reply # 233


  

          

when in fact it is an inaccurate statement... so I pointed this out.

>and that was WC's quote not mine. However keep in mind your
>acting like Jame's career was over with Body Heat (1980).. and
>as much as we all know the decline and your take on his stache
>- which is hilarious btw - his career wasn't over until he
>passed well into the 2000's. I mean safe to say we are
>judging the man by his actions - not his record release dates
>so WC's statement hold's true.

I don't know nothing about that. What I do know is that in the 1950s and 60s, most R&B artists' recording career lasted less than five singles. So someone who had been in the game releasing hits for 12 years could never be considered "in the early stages of his career" by any stretch of the imagination.

James Brown was a DON in the game at that point. He didn't have to do anything he didn't want to do in order to get established. He'd BEEN established.


>Look at James Brown as the Roots on Fallon playing "Lying Ass
>Bitch" then apologizing for it. They have bigger fish to
>fry.
>
>Now - are the Roots scared of revolution?

The Roots are scared of losing their jobs. Why wouldn't they be? It's tough out there in this economy!

>Any black man with a Job in America knows why James did what
>he did and if it was deeper than that so be it.

The thing you keep missing when you fixate upon the statement "James Brown was scared of revolution" is the fact that I chose that wording

a) to catch the attention
b) to allude to the Last Poets (who DID make explicitly revolutionary records
c) because in his autobiography, James himself that he didn't like the idea of "revolution" because it sounded to him like a situation where people would burn down their own neighborhoods and kill each other. He preferred that Blacks and whites should find a way to just talk out their differences.

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Artful Dodger
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Tue Jan-17-12 01:46 PM

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235. "so says you - and you have a right to your opinion - as we do ours"
In response to Reply # 234
Tue Jan-17-12 01:49 PM by Artful Dodger

          

I know whose quote it was; you cosigned it and praised its veracity"
In response to Reply # 233




when in fact it is an inaccurate statement... so I pointed this out.

>and that was WC's quote not mine. However keep in mind your
>acting like Jame's career was over with Body Heat (1980).. and
>as much as we all know the decline and your take on his stache
>- which is hilarious btw - his career wasn't over until he
>passed well into the 2000's. I mean safe to say we are
>judging the man by his actions - not his record release dates
>so WC's statement hold's true.

I don't know nothing about that. What I do know is that in the 1950s and 60s, most R&B artists' recording career lasted less than five singles. So someone who had been in the game releasing hits for 12 years could never be considered "in the early stages of his career" by any stretch of the imagination. - AFKAP

--- I think your missing the point of his statement and deliberately so to sell your argument. However what WC pointed out - perhaps you need to live here to know this - but it's very true. Your argument is james brown was scared of revolution then it's he was co-opted by the Black Power movement (a sore overlook on how the music of the people, grassroots music, themed all forms of grass roots revolts - hence James Brown). Again, could be a location oversight but I thought WC's exposing this was fantastic.


"James Brown was a DON in the game at that point. He didn't have to do anything he didn't want to do in order to get established. He'd BEEN established." - AFKAP

Ask Oj about this. There was no such thing as 'getting too comfortable'.. hell even a white successful artist like Jerry Lee Lewis and even John Lennon pointed out you couldn't just say anything you wanted. Arguably for a black man this was the case not just on TV but off as well so no.


>Look at James Brown as the Roots on Fallon playing "Lying Ass
>Bitch" then apologizing for it. They have bigger fish to
>fry.
>
>Now - are the Roots scared of revolution?

The Roots are scared of losing their jobs. Why wouldn't they be? It's tough out there in this economy! - AFKAP

Ok... but someone could easily pull a "the Roots are scared of revolution" using that as the backbone of the argument. I would argue James Brown was no different and the economy was no better.
In fact unemployement for blacks in America was higher than that it is now. Not to mention James was on some Hammer entourage ish long before hammerman. The band alone by "Big Payback" was CRAZZZYYY huge... he fed many families and sent many babies to college.

I also have a problem with always pointing out the flaws of the artist but never

the label
the executives
the management - ppl who all enjoy the wealth of success of all artists almost undetected to all the online criticism the artist faces. smh.

>Any black man with a Job in America knows why James did what
>he did and if it was deeper than that so be it.

The thing you keep missing when you fixate upon the statement "James Brown was scared of revolution" is the fact that I chose that wording

a) to catch the attention

- SHOCK POSTING NOPE GOT THAT AND IT WORKED AND HEY IT'S A DOPE POST SO I'M NOT EVEN MADE PLAYA

b) to allude to the Last Poets (who DID make explicitly revolutionary records

- YEAH BUT WERE ALL UP ON THE LAST POETS I MEAN YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO ALLUDE TO THAT. THEY ARE AS MUCH OF A STAPLE IN OUR CULTURE AS JAMES, ALTHOUGH MAYBE NOT AS POPULAR BUT STILL. IF YOU WANTED TO DO THAT JUST DO IT. DAPS FOR WANTING TO BUILD ON THEM THO, NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE MENTION THEIR WORK AND THEIR INFLUENCE. HOWEVER I DON'T JUDGE JAMES BY THE LAST POETS JUST LIKE I DON'T JUST THE MUSICAL SCORES OF CURTIS MAY BY ISSAC HAYES. I'M NOT INTO PUTTING ONE BLACK PERSON AGAINST ANOTHER. JUST ME.

c) because in his autobiography, James himself that he didn't like the idea of "revolution" because it sounded to him like a situation where people would burn down their own neighborhoods and kill each other. He preferred that Blacks and whites should find a way to just talk out their differences.


- SAY WHAT YOU WILL, NO ONE LIKES THE IDEA OF REAL REVOLUTION. REAL EASY TO TALK SHIT BUT AS I POINTED OUT EARLIER IN THIS POST - MALCOLM'S SPEECH 'BALLOT OR THE BULLET' HE POINTS OUT, REAL REVOLUTION IS BLOODY. IT'S DEATH FILLED. YEAH NO ONE WANTS THAT. WHICH WAS MY POINT...

AT LEAST HE WAS MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT. ALL THE OTHER STARS PARADING AROUND ON STAGE SCREAMING REVOLUTION DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY KIND OF REVOLUTIONARY. I ASKED YOU ABOUT THREE TIMES - SHOW ME ONE ARTIST WHO INVOKED REVOLUTION? THEY ARE ENTERTAINERS. i WOULDN'T BELIEVE A REVOLTING ARTIST ON STAGE NO MORE THAN I WOULD BELIEVE WUTANG ARE CHINESE. GIMMICK MAN C'MON YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT.
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Artful Dodger
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Tue Jan-17-12 02:41 PM

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236. "Again - please show me one entertainer who started revolution"
In response to Reply # 235
Tue Jan-17-12 02:41 PM by Artful Dodger

          

thanks.

Especially when only a hand few of politicians actually did as well.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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237. "I said an entertainer had started a revolution?"
In response to Reply # 236


  

          

When?

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Artful Dodger
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Tue Jan-17-12 03:01 PM

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238. "No you didn't - yet you said one was afraid of one."
In response to Reply # 237
Tue Jan-17-12 03:17 PM by Artful Dodger

          

as if anyone on this board isn't afraid of death and blood - as if anyone on these very boards are not afraid of real revolution.

Exactly my point. My question to you - at least five times in this very post was 'what entertainer ISN"T afraid of revolution?' 'what entertainer has started a revolution or was serious about one?' the answer would be none - cause they are entertainers, no militiamen, not politicians, and not mercenaries.

I mean I get why you used the title -shock posting- and it was a great convo I just don't agree with everything you said.

I do agree with some of the items you presented.

Good post either way.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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160. "Funk ....the Essence of Black Power..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Not to make this a personal thing against Afkap..but your view on this is in line with your confusion about Funk music.

You see...the fact that James Brown is aligned with the Black Power Movement is not just because of the song Say it loud.....but in a larger sense..the musical style...genre and movement he created....FUNK.... Was the cultural "soundtrack" of the movement...The agressive style.....as the music formed into a cohessive distinctive genre....It's imprint upon Black culture and it's place in popular cultre signified something NEW...something that was unique....

The Funk movement was part of the Black power movement...and the leader of the movment..the father of the movement was James Brown..

James Brown as the Black Cultural figure is not embrace by political conservatives for the same reason that Jack Johnson is not. Because regardless of how they sought the goals of the White man....in fact THE SAME EXACT GOALS AND REWARDS OUT OF LIFE AS THE WHITE AMERICAN MAN.... Them doing so was completely against the current status quo....in some cases against the actual law of the land..and thus by it's nature are REVOLUTIONARY...

They are the essesnce of Revolution....

trying to go back in hindsight and apply politically based terms like conservatism...without utilizing the context of the time they happened..is just missing the point....with all due respect...it's just misguided..

you mentioned Fela Kuti and Bob Marley....other than the musical influences.... the biggest influence was that both of those men had a model for making powerful music that was designed to move people towards ACTION.... and that music to be made by an upright standing Black man...

Before James Brown nobody had did that man..

Nobody...

it's a concept that did not exist before James Brown..

There were great artists...

But nobody embodied that like James Brown..... Sam Cooke gets a lot of credit too...died before he could really take that to the next level....as far as How you carry yourself to the public...your business dealings...and the message in the music....and doing so as a Strong Black Man man with style...

But James doing it along side of the evolution of Funk music..

it had a Power..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oQRmx6M8-U

This wasn't smooth out balladeers....this was jazz.....it wasn't the blues....

it was Funk.... It was Black...it was agressive..and it had power..

Black power is Funk..and Funk is Black power..

He's not a part of the Black power movment just because of say it loud... but because the musical genre and the movement that he developed, and how his presented himself in doing so brought Black Power Black American culture..and in doing so...he provided an example for other men who did the same in their countries.....

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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173. "I see you embrace the MYTH of JB, not the MAN."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

And that's cool. That's part of what this post is about.

>Not to make this a personal thing against Afkap..but your view
>on this is in line with your confusion about Funk music.

Hell yeah, it's personal. If you disagree, say you disagree... but you gotta always find a way to tie it into AF not understanding Funk, not understanding Black American culture, etc.

Meanwhile, this post has got scores of replies with people agreeing with me to varying degrees. Are they ALL confused about Funk music? I guess you're the only one who really understands Funk, huh?

Meanwhile, this post you wrote is full of all kinds of flowery poetry but distressingly light on factual support.


>you mentioned Fela Kuti and Bob Marley....other than the
>musical influences.... the biggest influence was that both of
>those men had a model for making powerful music that was
>designed to move people towards ACTION.... and that music to
>be made by an upright standing Black man...
>
>Before James Brown nobody had did that man..
>
>Nobody...
>
>it's a concept that did not exist before James Brown..

http://youtu.be/uLMRzDFMvEo
http://youtu.be/qfGsTx3xtdI
http://youtu.be/lenHYXtiqoI

And I done already told you that Bob Marley was not that influenced by James Brown. Sure you can go and link up "Black Progress" and "It's Alright"--two originally unreleased tracks that the Wailers recorded when they were signed to American label JAD that was trying to figure out how to market them to a Black American audience--but those two tracks are not really representative of Bob Marley's oeuvre.

Thats like saying that just because James Brown recorded "If I Ruled the World"

http://youtu.be/kZpNwNSP6_A

that Tony Bennett was a huge influence upon his sound.

Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions were the most significant Black American influence upon Bob Marley & the Wailers... from day one. http://bit.ly/As7HZF

As for Fela... no.

If you listen to Fela's records from the first half of the 1970s, he was not even really "urging people to action." They were mostly humorous social commentary songs... His increased focus on musical activism developed organically as a result of his own experiences with police harassment and government corruption. It's not like he came out the gate singing about that stuff like he got it from someone else. And as I said before, he was singing about fighting the government... something James Brown NEVER did.

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Artful Dodger
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229. "WC - dope response thanks for this."
In response to Reply # 160


          

  

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Warren Coolidge
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164. "Mind Power...."if you don't work......you can't eat""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAATcEJOWXo


listen to the words here....This is James Brown's direct message to the ghetto.....and to the politicians of the time...

He shows compassion ...not disdain for the ghetto....so right there we can disconnect this from the mindset of modern political conservatism....


and more importantly he rejects the idea of Black people "going back to the biblical times of 2 little fishes, and 5 loaves of bread" he says that too many brothers are going with that....

that's not a passive message..it's a message of Black empowerment..


and no...contrary to what afkap said above...there were no Black Panthers holding guns on James Brown and bullying him into making this message

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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171. "you are moving the goalpost."
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

I never said that James Brown had "disdain for the ghetto"

And this record, "MInd Power" does not in any way validate claims for James Brown having an affinity for the Black Power Movement.

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Sun Jan-15-12 12:05 PM

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184. "I think some clarity is needed."
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

>I never said that James Brown had "disdain for the ghetto"

Black Conservatism as presented above is often diluted by its association with the neoconservative movements and political parties today; these are dominated by whites, and in the move to prove their allegiance, many Black Conservatives throw out that disdain openly in one or many ways.

Someone here pointed it out as "talking at, rather to" Black people. James was different in that he talked to Black folk, not "at" them. I just had a chance to listen to "America Is My Home" finally.

I can see why this song was buried for so long; still, it had that classic "James Brown" sound, and the message is very much in line with Black Conservatism, esp. in how it relates to the U.S.A. as home. The language James uses, is way too close to "home" to dismiss it as an outright appeasal, though.



  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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185. "I view Black Conservatism as separate from mainstream Conservatism"
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

even though in many cases, Black conservatives may align themselves with the mainstream conservative movement, it is not always the case.

To me, Black conservatism is less concerned with the macro issues of conservatism on the national scales and more about a "conservative" approach to Blackness. Basically it's an approach that says "Hey, the question of the Negro Problem was posed at the beginning of the 20th century; two opposing solutions were posed by WEB DuBois and Booker T. Washington... For the most part, we have followed DuBois' way for the past 50+ years and it hasn't worked all that well. Why don't we try Booker's ideas and see how they work?"

There's the idea that Black conservatives are self-hating oreos who want to curry favor with whites but I find this not to be the case. Many of them do care deeply about the Black community but just have a different idea of how we can best solve our problems.

John McWhorter wrote a piece about this that I liked a lot... I posted in GD a while back: http://www.theroot.com/views/why-they-call-us-uncle-toms

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Dr Claw
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Mon Jan-16-12 08:11 AM

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188. "I agree with this description"
In response to Reply # 185
Mon Jan-16-12 08:11 AM by Dr Claw

  

          

>To me, Black conservatism is less concerned with the macro
>issues of conservatism on the national scales and more about a
>"conservative" approach to Blackness. Basically it's an
>approach that says "Hey, the question of the Negro Problem was
>posed at the beginning of the 20th century; two opposing
>solutions were posed by WEB DuBois and Booker T. Washington...
>For the most part, we have followed DuBois' way for the past
>50+ years and it hasn't worked all that well. Why don't we try
>Booker's ideas and see how they work?"
>
>There's the idea that Black conservatives are self-hating
>oreos who want to curry favor with whites but I find this not
>to be the case. Many of them do care deeply about the Black
>community but just have a different idea of how we can best
>solve our problems.

Where the problems come in is how those ideas are presented... and that's when the name calling starts. I think James's way was very much assuring "hey, I'm with y'all."

I think Chuck D is also in that mindset. He (like I) has a high disdain for neoconservatives and the multi-bigoted ways of "social conservatism", but if you go back and listen to the messages he's put out, they're not that far away from the Booker T. model.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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189. "Black Conservatives struggle with the problem of presentation"
In response to Reply # 188


  

          

Both in terms of making their ideas sound "sexy" rather than hidebound, and in making it understood that they do not *hate* Black people.

Too many of them have a certain victim complex that suggests they are insecure from a lifetime of being teased for not being Black enough... It's always refreshing to hear a Black conservative who appears confident, empathetic and clearly on the side of Black people.

Which is what would have made James Brown such a great Black conservative ambassador... because there is no doubt that James cared first and foremost about his people and was not trying to suck up to whites.

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Warren Coolidge
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191. "it shows his view of his own people as being contrary to the view"
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

that so called Black conservatives have of Black people...

you mentioned previously that james brown's message was straight out of the so-called black conservative handbook...all that was missing was claims that racism was no big deal....

also ..one of the primary tennants of black conservatism is the complete rejection of the ideal that crime is a direct result of poverty.... you compared larry elder's views and James brown's views...Elder believes that there is no connection between poverty and crime....People speaking of poverty...people speaking of the lack of employment who draw connections with those things and higher crime rates are rejected by conservatives as making excuses..

James Brown's core views stands in stark contrast of that...

He shows empathy...understanding...and draws a direct connection between the ACTIONS of Black people and their CONDITION in America..

no way that philosophy goes with ANY conservative philosophy...

I'll take it a step further in that the level of humanity that James Brown sees in Black people is also much higher than what is acceptable in the modern Conservative movement... James Brown viewed Black people's condition as worthy of concern and analysis..again, something Conservatives completely reject...


Black self-emPOWERment = Black Power

Modern Black conservatism = Black passivism....

James Brown is not associated with Black Conservatism because he viewed Black people as having more value than the Modern Black Conservative movment wishes to view them. In fact the idea of being considered Black ..as opposed ot just being considred an American is also against Black Conservative philosophy....

You may try to force a connection ....but James Brown is the opposite of the so-called Modern Black conservative.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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165. "James Brown - Hell (1974).... hmm...who else said Hell was on earth?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vosG23pLXEQ


"It's Hell Down in here and we got to make a change"

so....before America was the place to be....James Brown didn't want to be anywhere else..

but in 1974...it was HELL...and things needed to change...

"It's Hell tryin to make it
when you're doing it by yourself
It's Hell paying taxes
when there's no money left
It's Hell giving up the best years
the best years of your soul
payin bills from the day you're born
your body's gettin old"


ok...what happened to the "black people exaggerate racism and just pay your taxes" message???


So Brother James....Who exactly is it Hell for in America??

"say brother.tell em it's hell
if you're Jewish it's hell
if you're Black it's hell
if you're White it's hell ...poor white
if you're indian it's hell
arabs catchin hell
housewives catchin hell
red man catchin hell"

ok...so that pretty much covers every one but WHITE MEN WHO AREN'T POOR (not just white people because james says Housewives are catchin hell)

So in 1974 James Brown was referencing Hell on Earth and those who were being tormented in this Hell was everyone but Rich White Men...

You can show me all the songs you want where James Brown spoke of pride to be an American....

but I haven't even begun to show you all of the real reasons why his message is associated with the Black Power movement..

again....no reports of Black Panthers holding guns to James Brown and bullying him when this song was written and recorded

  

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L.E.S.
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Sat Jan-14-12 03:20 PM

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166. "^^^^ I was waiting for this post"
In response to Reply # 165


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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172. "How does this indicate endorsement of the Black Power Movement?"
In response to Reply # 165
Sat Jan-14-12 08:00 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

Actually, if anything... it proves the contrary. Because as much as James acknowledges that there were some serious hard times going on in the early 70s (even the most right-wing GOP booster could have denied that), he goes out of his way to talk about how it was hell for everybody *across the board*... not just Blacks.

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Bombastic
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169. "JB's closest political ally (and close friend) was Al Sharpton"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Who is on the short-list for conservative boogeymen of the past 30 years.

Nobody wants to get into a 'Lloyd Bentson Moment' with Al in regards to a man Al obviously would be much more informed of than him.

I ain't saying that's in any way the sole reason but I wager it's not a minor detail either.

  

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k_orr
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176. "you need better comp "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Somebody that's intellectually honest, familiar with the etiquette of argument, but also well read/versed on this topic.

It reminds me of 50 Cent doing songs about weed when he repeatedly says he's not a smoker at all. (which then begs the question, what do Yayo and Lloyd carry?)

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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177. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 176


  

          

>(which then begs
>the question, what do Yayo and Lloyd carry?)

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JAESCOTT777
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178. "your right and i know this is true for a fact"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and can confirm it pretty easy

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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179. "How so?"
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

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JAESCOTT777
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225. "Step pops "
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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226. "C'mon, man... speak up if you got some 411. nm"
In response to Reply # 225


  

          

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MISTA MONOTONE
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180. "perhaps the most interesting and omitted tidbit re: I'm Black (& I'm Pro..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jan-15-12 11:47 AM by MISTA MONOTONE

  

          

the kids chanting "i'm black and i'm proud!" on the chorus weren't even black.

they were supposedly some random white kids pulled off the street.


edit: i didn't read any of the responses yet, forgive me if this has been addressed already...

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
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mistamonotone - taboo
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@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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181. "yep... white and Asian."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

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k_orr
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182. "I'm not sure which side this helps more"
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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183. "In James' autobio he kinda used it to illustrate"
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

that the shit was not that serious to him... Like, "It was a children's song... and the kids weren't even Black!"

Though originally he was gonna use Black kids but when they were about to record, he got the grenade threat and all the parents pulled their kids out of it. So he just grabbed random white and Asian kids.

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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186. "hahaha. what a stupid fuck you are. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          




LOL @ all that long shit


Nigga I didn't learn a single thing from that
but that you're still butthurt at Warren Coolidge
for ethering the shit out of you in that other
post


who fucking cares

you mad you lost that other debate with coolidge


grow up, you sissy ass nigga


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Just Jeffy
Member since Jan 15th 2012
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Mon Jan-16-12 10:55 AM

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190. "There is no need for that kind of language, sir. Nice, okay?"
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

Hey hi this is Jeffy again. I hope you love me like I want to make you move in this boot-boot. I'll be great, trust me!

  

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Warren Coolidge
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192. "Funky President.......James brown..the 99 percenter...."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jan-16-12 02:53 PM by Warren Coolidge

  

          

lol..

so if James Brown was president..... he would say..just go to school...pay your taxes....and love your country and all will be fine right???

But first a quick analysis of the Black Power movement...on a basic level, the Black Power movement was about Black people doing for themselves. For a time it stood in contrast with the civil rights movement which was about looking to the government and it's people to GIVE rights to Blacks....... it was about gaining access to the American democracy..to the tennants of the constitution and the law of the land. Where the Black power movement was about dealing with Black people "within, but without White America" so to speak...it was about doing for yourself first. It was about Black people utilizing their rights under the constitution without asking White people first (ie the right to bear arms). It was about feeding and eduction your children without permission or help from the government or White America..

so now that's the distinction between the 2..

In the hypothetical of James Brown being president..

Which one would choose???

There's a difference, yeah huh
Stock market going up, jobs going down
It ain't no funky job to be found
Prices keep going up, I'm chained to my bath
Now I drink from a paper cup, gettin' bad
People, people, we've got to get over
Before we go under, listen to me
Let's get together raise
Let's get together and get some land
Raise our food like the man
Save our money like the mob
Put up the factory on the job
Wow, tell them, Godfather
Hey Lord, hey, turn on your fountain water
Get down and praise the Lord


the most interesting part of this passage is about the Stock market going up...and jobs going down..

"Money flowing up to the top....wall street gettin their money...yet the jobs aren't there for" That was pretty much the montra being the progressive occupy wall street movement..

His answer to that problem is NOT for Black people to rely on the country...to fall back on the constitution...or to embrace the so called values of America..

his answer was for Black people to get theirs just like others. Build their own businesses.....create their own wealth... Like the NOI get some land and raise their own food. To recycle Black dollars...

Black empowerment in the face of Economic disparity.....

contrary to the very essence of modern conservatism..

and again, there are no reports of any armed Black Panthers forcing James Brown to make this song.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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193. "...in other words, his beliefs were in line with Booker T. Washington"
In response to Reply # 192


  

          

The father of modern Black Conservatism.

James Brown's interpretation of "Black Power" was Black capitalism... the BPP and most of Black Power advocates meanwhile gravitated towards Socialism.

James was much more Right-leaning.

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Warren Coolidge
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194. "nothing about modern Black conservatism relates to Booker T."
In response to Reply # 193


  

          

that's my point..

you coninue to ask why James isn't a champion for Black conservatism..and I continue to point out that everything about James Brown is contrary to the modern Black conservative movement..

just like everything about the modern Black conservative movement is contrary to the general ideals of Booker T. Washington..


if that's the case..the the Nation of Islam, the Black Panther Party, the Nation of Gods and Earths, and the Black Israeliste movement are in line with Booker T Washington's views....

what you need to really be asking is why the current Black conservative movement works towards things are against the best interest of Black people. Why do they support the concept of more guns in urban communities would equal less crime? Why do they fight against the concept of public education?

the Black conservative movement today is nothing but a long jockey for the right....

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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195. "Shows how much you know about modern Black conservatism."
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

Throughout this post, all you have done is make assumptions that say more about YOU and your own political leanings than ever addressing bare facts:

"Black conservatives have disdain for the ghetto."

"Black conservatism is Black passivism"*

"Black conservatives are lawn jockeys for the Republican party."

I've stopped even addressing you on any of these red herring statements because they have nothing to do with anything.


Although I will take some responsibility for misleading you a bit by carelessly referencing Larry Elder.... I don't even think of Larry Elder as a Black Conservative so much as a regular Conservative who just happens to be Black.

(Of course, Elder does share some of the basic beliefs of the Black Conservative movement--chiefly that we've got to stop worrying so much about racism--but he takes everything to a ridiculous extreme.)

So yeah... Forget that I ever mentioned Elder. I actually said earlier in the post that I should have used Herman Cain instead.







*this one is the funniest to me, since Black conservatives argue that liberals are the passive ones, always looking for government to solve their problems for them... and I kinda agree

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Warren Coolidge
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203. "lol.... I know all about the Black Conservative movement...."
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

>Throughout this post, all you have done is make assumptions
>that say more about YOU and your own political leanings than
>ever addressing bare facts:

I know what it's rooted in....I know where it is now.



>"Black conservatives have disdain for the ghetto."

your words: "What Black people need to do is stop complaining and making excuses, educate themselves, learn to speak proper English, work hard, save their money and pay their taxes… and then we all can make it"

this type of view shows complete disdain for Black people in the ghetto.... "get over it" "racism is in your head" that's basiclly all you get from conservatives towards the Black ghetto.... James Brown consistently showed a empathy understanding..and an acceptance of the laws of cause and effect that is completly contrary to anything related to the modern conservative movement.

>
>"Black conservatism is Black passivism"*

absolutely....hell...they wouldn't even want to be considered Black....they want to only be considered Americans. It's completely passivism related to the Black Conservatives of today...in fact some of it's primary mouthpieces actually go out of their way to un-masculinate themselves when communicating....like Larry Elder lip smacking in a feminim manner on the radio.... Michael Steele's neck craining during speeches as the head of the RNC....

or even uncle ruckus himself hermain caine on some hee hee ha ha when the idea of his ancestors being owned as slaves by some conservative clown on the radio's ancestors...

there is nothing or nobody associated with modern Black conservatism that can stand up as a free thinking independant Black Man and still hold the mantle of Conservative political philosophy..... Colin Powel is a perfect example as acted in the tradition of real Black Conservatives of the past who may support conservative ideals but will support the candidate who upholds those ideals regardless of political affiliation......


>
>"Black conservatives are lawn jockeys for the Republican
>party."
>
>I've stopped even addressing you on any of these red herring
>statements because they have nothing to do with anything.
>
you should....because you don't have a counter argument to it. You don't want no parts of this debate with me my man. Trust.

>
>Although I will take some responsibility for misleading you a
>bit by carelessly referencing Larry Elder.... I don't even
>think of Larry Elder as a Black Conservative so much as a
>regular Conservative who just happens to be Black.

uh.... you referenced Larry Elder because who else you gonna reference....

Michael Steele????

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson????

Herman Cain???

who you got????

no-fukkin-body...

Because you surely can't keep bringing up Brother Booker T. Washington because his philosophy is so in line with that of the Nation of Islam ...the Black Panther party.....and so many other groups that you disdain...

or you could try to bring up the late great Dr. John Ogbu..... but although he is associted with Black Conservatism...his work on the "voluntary and involuntary minorities" completely rejects the so called modern conservative view that because so-n-so immigrant Blacks do well...that means that American Black should be doing ths same so thus racism is a non-factor..

bring it how ever you want my nigga.....you don't want this debate....

if Larry Elder ain't the one... Who is???


>
>(Of course, Elder does share some of the basic beliefs of the
>Black Conservative movement--chiefly that we've got to stop
>worrying so much about racism--but he takes everything to a
>ridiculous extreme.)

yeah...and James Brown accepted racism as being real and offered a Black empowered message to liberate his people.... other than disdain...whave have modern Black conservatives offered????


>
>So yeah... Forget that I ever mentioned Elder. I actually said
>earlier in the post that I should have used Herman Cain
>instead.

really....lololol...

Hermain Cain?????? nigga fukk Herman Cain..... you said I'm off base by claiming that Black Conservatives have disdain for Black people..then you use Herman Cain as an example of Black conservatism...lolol..

Hermain Cain who said that Black were brainwashed into supporting Democrats...basiclly saying that Blacks don't think for themselves...or ignore the several concrete issues like gun control.....civil rights....voting rights....public education...where the right wing takes stances that are completely against the best interest of Black people...

>
>
>*this one is the funniest to me, since Black conservatives
>argue that liberals are the passive ones, always looking for
>government to solve their problems for them... and I kinda
>agree

If you are a Black conservative today either you are a lawn jockey coon sissy acting uncle tom....or you are someone who supports the ideals conservatism while voting for and supporting the only candidates who are in that tradition today (who happen to be democrats)

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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204. "You're contradicting yourself."
In response to Reply # 203


  

          


>If you are a Black conservative today either you are a lawn
>jockey coon sissy acting uncle tom....or you are someone who
>supports the ideals conservatism while voting for and
>supporting the only candidates who are in that tradition today
>(who happen to be democrats)

Oh... so it IS possible to be a conservative without being a lawn jockey, just as long as you vote for Democrats, huh?

Nice to know.

Good thing I avoided discussing actual political party affiliations throughout this post then. Good thing I never said James was a Republican... only a Conservative, which is not the same thing at all.

So yeah... Thanks for helping my argument (not that I think it needed it, of course... but any assistance is always welcome!)

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Jan-16-12 05:01 PM

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208. "no contradiction at all...."
In response to Reply # 204


  

          

>
>>If you are a Black conservative today either you are a lawn
>>jockey coon sissy acting uncle tom....or you are someone who
>>supports the ideals conservatism while voting for and
>>supporting the only candidates who are in that tradition
>today
>>(who happen to be democrats)
>
>Oh... so it IS possible to be a conservative without being a
>lawn jockey, just as long as you vote for Democrats, huh?
>

the tennants and philosphy of so-called Black Conservatism can be cound in the philoslphies of Marcus Garvey...the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad....Brother Noble Drew Ali ...The Black Panther party....the Nation of Gods and Earths.....

I can draw multiple clear connections between Booker T. Washington's views and the views of all of these groups and people...

That's the part that you are missing.... there is nothing pro education...pro-doing for self that exclusively Conservative...or exclusively on the right...

it's weak to find those elements in James Brown and try to align him with Black conservatives while either ignoring those elements of him that are rooted in the Black Power ideolgocial philosophy or those taht are in stark contrast to modern Black conservatism as embodied by Larry Elder, Herman Cain and the other clowns.


>Nice to know.
>
>Good thing I avoided discussing actual political party
>affiliations throughout this post then. Good thing I never
>said James was a Republican... only a Conservative, which is
>not the same thing at all.


Although they are not the same thing...modern Black conservatism does not exist outside of the realm of politics..... it serves no other purpose to call oneself a Black Conservative today other than to distinguish oneself as someone on the right...

You brought up the term Right..or Right wing in this....that is completely political right there....




>So yeah... Thanks for helping my argument (not that I think it
>needed it, of course... but any assistance is always
>welcome!)

you argument here failed before it started because you provided 1 song where James talks about how great America is during a time when a Black man could not get any mainstream love without that type of message....then when shown numerous examples that contradict that message in America is my home...you use some weak 3rd hand quote exagerated to say that Black panthers held guns on James Brown and ordered him to make certain songs....

just as Herman Cane calls Black who don't vote republican brainwashed....you claim that any James Brown message that deviates from America is my home was presented under durress and not reflective of him true desires...

I mean how sorry can a person's point of view be if every contrary view is without any evidence labeled as coerced or insinsere??

just a weak argument dude...

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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209. "*sigh* I promised myself I would not get into it with you"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

and I intend to keep that promise so I'm gonna just speak my piece and be done with it.

>the tennants and philosphy of so-called Black Conservatism can
>be cound in the philoslphies of Marcus Garvey...the Most
>Honorable Elijah Muhammad....Brother Noble Drew Ali ...The
>Black Panther party....the Nation of Gods and Earths.....

Marcus Garvey WAS conservative, though. And once you strip away their racism and obsession with race, so is/was the NOI.

(Actually, I take back saying Marcus Garvey was conservative. Garvey's plan involved shipping Blacks out of the United States and back to Africa... That's definitely not a conservative position, and the notion that Blacks should leave America is exactly what James Brown was combating in "America is My Home.")

The NGE... that's some other shit, I can't say. And they sure as hell ain't pro-education... at least not *formal* education with their semi-nonsensical "true mathematics."

The Black Panther Party was a revolutionary, Far Left organization essentially occupied with restructuring American society through revolution. That is NOT "conservative."

>I can draw multiple clear connections between Booker T.
>Washington's views and the views of all of these groups and
>people...

No, you can't.


>it's weak to find those elements in James Brown and try to
>align him with Black conservatives while either ignoring those
>elements of him that are rooted in the Black Power ideolgocial
>philosophy or those taht are in stark contrast to modern Black
>conservatism as embodied by Larry Elder, Herman Cain and the
>other clowns.

It's weak for you to ignore the reams and reams of quotes I painstakingly copied from James Brown's autobiography where he said he didn't want a revolution, didn't like SNCC, didn't feel that people should be shouting about how proud they are of their color instead of just being proud of where they live (ie being proud of being American is more important than being proud of being Black).


>Although they are not the same thing...modern Black
>conservatism does not exist outside of the realm of
>politics..... it serves no other purpose to call oneself a
>Black Conservative today other than to distinguish oneself as
>someone on the right...

Of course, terms like "Conservative" "Liberal" "Radical" and "Progressive" are inherently political in nature. I never said they weren't.

But that is not the same thing as political "parties*

There are conservative Democrats. There are progressive Republicans. etc.

I didn't say anything about which political party James Brown voted for. I said that his values were essentially conservative and he vocally rejected the radicalism of the Black Panthers and the Black Power movement, instead finding succor in the idea of Black capitalism. And the idea that capitalism and the free market will solve our problems is a conservative cornerstone.


>you argument here failed before it started because you
>provided 1 song where James talks about how great America is
>during a time when a Black man could not get any mainstream
>love without that type of message....

That is such a ridiculous plea cop.

James Brown already had like 6 Top 10 hits on the pop charts (not even counting the R&B charts) but in order to get mainstream love, he had to make a jingoistic, conservative propaganda record that didn't even crack the Top 50?

You are really giving James no credit to suggest he was that dumb.

Besides, if you read his autobio, he makes it clear that he did that record because he *wanted* to say something, even as his management advised him to stay away from political statements.


then when shown numerous
>examples that contradict that message in America is my
>home...you use some weak 3rd hand quote exagerated to say that
>Black panthers held guns on James Brown and ordered him to
>make certain songs....

It's not a third-hand quote. Hank Ballard was steadily by James' side during that period and he said he was there when the Panthers came. And right after that, James made a string of pro-Black records with Hank (one wonders why James "used" Hank as his mouthpiece for the more radical statements... as if he didn't want to have to vocalize them himself).

James even says in his own book that the Black Power people were on his case. Of course you will keep ignoring that since it completely destroys what ragged semblance of an argument you have.

>just as Herman Cane calls Black who don't vote republican
>brainwashed....you claim that any James Brown message that
>deviates from America is my home was presented under durress
>and not reflective of him true desires...

Herman Cain's position is indeed very similar to James'

>I mean how sorry can a person's point of view be if every
>contrary view is without any evidence labeled as coerced or
>insinsere??
>
>just a weak argument dude...

WITHOUT EVIDENCE?

LOL I have brought quotes from people in the Black Power movement... from James Brown's people... from James Brown himself.

You ain't brought a goddamn thing but some bowdlerized readings of a couple of lyrics (in which you very carefully avoid the more troublesome portions) and yet *I* am the one without evidence?

LOL

this is why I say I am not gonna argue with you no more, my negro... You are the most intellectually dishonest human I have ever interacted with.

I really have better things to do with my time, and a better class of person to do them with.

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Warren Coolidge
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214. "RE: *sigh* I promised myself I would not get into it with you"
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

>and I intend to keep that promise so I'm gonna just speak my
>piece and be done with it.
>
>>the tennants and philosphy of so-called Black Conservatism
>can
>>be cound in the philoslphies of Marcus Garvey...the Most
>>Honorable Elijah Muhammad....Brother Noble Drew Ali ...The
>>Black Panther party....the Nation of Gods and Earths.....
>
>Marcus Garvey WAS conservative, though. And once you strip
>away their racism and obsession with race, so is/was the NOI.
>
>(Actually, I take back saying Marcus Garvey was conservative.
>Garvey's plan involved shipping Blacks out of the United
>States and back to Africa... That's definitely not a
>conservative position, and the notion that Blacks should leave
>America is exactly what James Brown was combating in "America
>is My Home.")

you were right the first time. Marcus Garvey completely embodies the idea of not looking towards the government for a handout...It doesn't get more "do for yourself" than to leave America and form your own society. As far as the type of conduct he promoted and the ideal of Black empowrment and self sufficiency...Marcus Garvey's philosophy is very much in line with so-called conservative (non-political) values....



>
>The NGE... that's some other shit, I can't say. And they sure
>as hell ain't pro-education... at least not *formal* education
>with their semi-nonsensical "true mathematics."

nigga the Right isn't pro-education today...lol. They damn near at the level of burning books right now. There is a huge right wing push to defund public education, and the right stands in direct concept to the idea that a democracy functions best with an educated citizenry....

The Nation of Gods and Earths promotes knowledge of self....self-determination....don't beg the white man or the government for shit..

that's a very non-political conservative ideology....


>
>The Black Panther Party was a revolutionary, Far Left
>organization essentially occupied with restructuring American
>society through revolution. That is NOT "conservative."

bullshit.....

The Black Panther party's exercising of their 2nd amendment rights to bear arms are one of the main reason why we have control laws today....Do your history my brother.

The Black Panther party sought to educate and feed it's own children....no welfare.....do for self...

conservative non-political ideals....


>>I can draw multiple clear connections between Booker T.
>>Washington's views and the views of all of these groups and
>>people...
>
>No, you can't.


lol...


"At the bottom of education, at the bottom of politics, even at the bottom of religion, there must be for our race economic independence."-Booker T. Washington

Economic INDEPENDENCE!!!!!!

That is at the core of every one of the groups I mentioned.....A lot of what you see in Booker T. Washington's philosophy is rhetoric that was an attempt to distinguish himself from other schools of thought at the time. So me...I give him a pass on some of the stances that others don't like about him as far as seeming to find value Black people having the role of laborer over the role of ownership..... but when you get to the core of his message...where the rubber meets the road..beyond the rhetoric is the ideal of Black Economic independence.... Blacks having a self-value....promoting the view of themselves beyond that of the outside.


>
>
>>it's weak to find those elements in James Brown and try to
>>align him with Black conservatives while either ignoring
>those
>>elements of him that are rooted in the Black Power
>ideolgocial
>>philosophy or those taht are in stark contrast to modern
>Black
>>conservatism as embodied by Larry Elder, Herman Cain and the
>>other clowns.
>
>It's weak for you to ignore the reams and reams of quotes I
>painstakingly copied from James Brown's autobiography where he
>said he didn't want a revolution,

yeah he did....He wanted a revolution of the mind of Black people. You taking the concept of revolution literally shows a lack of understanding of the Black Power movement. Over simplification moving towards a complete misunderstanding of the issue. Again, part of the dispute here is your limited, narrow and really off base definition of Black Power.

your view of the Black Power movement as being limited to a bunch ao Negros carrying machine guns is not only short sighted but it's honestly ignorant. You should educate yourself about the subject more before speaking on it. Or..even better ..get some respect for Black people so you can stop twisting things you don't agree with into something they are not.


didn't like SNCC, didn't
>feel that people should be shouting about how proud they are
>of their color instead of just being proud of where they live
>(ie being proud of being American is more important than being
>proud of being Black).


yeah...all that is incorrect.... because I can continue to show you volumes of evidence that shows he supported Black empowerment...that he viewed the struggles of the youth as being worthy.

I know you want to pretend like he was threatened and pressured to change his views away from those espoused in America is my home...but the fact of the matter is that there is far more evidence that shows James Brown to be a Proud Black man with conviction, rather than taking stances for the sake of fitting in with an ideology he doesn't agree with.

>
>>Although they are not the same thing...modern Black
>>conservatism does not exist outside of the realm of
>>politics..... it serves no other purpose to call oneself a
>>Black Conservative today other than to distinguish oneself
>as
>>someone on the right...
>
>Of course, terms like "Conservative" "Liberal" "Radical" and
>"Progressive" are inherently political in nature. I never said
>they weren't.
>
>But that is not the same thing as political "parties*

yet you reference right wing..... the right wing of what???


>
>There are conservative Democrats. There are progressive
>Republicans. etc.
>
>I didn't say anything about which political party James Brown
>voted for.

but you referenced his support for certain politicians...... hmm....you talked about the backlash he received after supporting Nixon....I recall an interview where he talked about leaving the music business all together and focusing on grass roots movements within the Black community....this was his response to a young man on soul train asking him about his support of Nixon. People's ideologies evolve based on the facts on the ground so to speak...

Dr. King's evolved for sure right before he died....

Malcom X evolved....

Min. Farrakhan has evolved...

and you best believe that if Booker T. Washington had lived long enough to see the genocidal brutality that Black people suffered AFTER they had allegedly accomplished many of the goals he set out for them....I guarantee you he would have been singing a different tune..... trust me..... With children and women being lynched a blown up and shit...I'm pretty sure that Brother Washington would have expanded his focus beyond finding reasons why Black people's conduct was some how resulting in such heinous actions towards them.


I said that his values were essentially
>conservative and he vocally rejected the radicalism of the
>Black Panthers and the Black Power movement, instead finding
>succor in the idea of Black capitalism. And the idea that
>capitalism and the free market will solve our problems is a
>conservative cornerstone.
>

no he didn't. You're just wrong there. He may not have been millitant..but he was certainly on Black empowerment and do for self, which is REALLY the radical viewpoint of the time. Fukk the guns nigga and talk of revolution.....the most radical element of the time was and is Black people doing for themselves ..defining themselves and being economiclly independent..

J.Edgar Hoover said the the Black Panther's Breakfast for children program was the most dangerous threat to America....not the fact that they were strapped...the fact that they fed children....




>
>>you argument here failed before it started because you
>>provided 1 song where James talks about how great America is
>>during a time when a Black man could not get any mainstream
>>love without that type of message....
>
>That is such a ridiculous plea cop.
>
>James Brown already had like 6 Top 10 hits on the pop charts
>(not even counting the R&B charts) but in order to get
>mainstream love, he had to make a jingoistic, conservative
>propaganda record that didn't even crack the Top 50?

Had to be a non-threatening Black to get shine. James Brown and others began to push the envelope though...but the fact remains..it's not like he could have gotten played on the radio back then making the big payback, Hell, king heroin or say it loud...


>
>You are really giving James no credit to suggest he was that
>dumb.
>
>Besides, if you read his autobio, he makes it clear that he
>did that record because he *wanted* to say something, even as
>his management advised him to stay away from political
>statements.
>
>
>then when shown numerous
>>examples that contradict that message in America is my
>>home...you use some weak 3rd hand quote exagerated to say
>that
>>Black panthers held guns on James Brown and ordered him to
>>make certain songs....
>
>It's not a third-hand quote. Hank Ballard was steadily by
>James' side during that period and he said he was there when
>the Panthers came. And right after that, James made a string
>of pro-Black records with Hank (one wonders why James "used"
>Hank as his mouthpiece for the more radical statements... as
>if he didn't want to have to vocalize them himself).

James made pro-Black records himself..he didn't need Hank Ballard to be a mouthpiece...



>
>James even says in his own book that the Black Power people
>were on his case. Of course you will keep ignoring that since
>it completely destroys what ragged semblance of an argument
>you have.

they should have been on his case...they was on Dr. King's case too. The message needed to evolve.....Once you got rights on paper...what are you gonna do with it??? The Civil Rights movement was allowable eventually becasue there was no risk in giving Black people equal rights. The real danger to America was a self-defined Black man who used his economic power....who viewed other Black people and people of color around the world as their brothers and sisters.... the Black man as the producer not the consumer...That is the real danger to America...it was then and always has been. James needed the younger generation to inform him about what type of leadership was needed...the same way they informed Dr. King of what was needed. As as true great leaders...they gave the people what they needed...not because it was easy..but because it was the right thing to do.


>>just as Herman Cane calls Black who don't vote republican
>>brainwashed....you claim that any James Brown message that
>>deviates from America is my home was presented under durress
>>and not reflective of him true desires...
>
>Herman Cain's position is indeed very similar to James'

lol...absolutely not.


>
>>I mean how sorry can a person's point of view be if every
>>contrary view is without any evidence labeled as coerced or
>>insinsere??
>>
>>just a weak argument dude...
>
>WITHOUT EVIDENCE?
>
>LOL I have brought quotes from people in the Black Power
>movement... from James Brown's people... from James Brown
>himself.

nope....


>
>You ain't brought a goddamn thing but some bowdlerized
>readings of a couple of lyrics (in which you very carefully
>avoid the more troublesome portions) and yet *I* am the one
>without evidence?
>
>LOL
>
>this is why I say I am not gonna argue with you no more, my
>negro... You are the most intellectually dishonest human I
>have ever interacted with.



>
>I really have better things to do with my time, and a better
>class of person to do them with.

you've provided no evidence at all.... quotes that are cropped to leave out the parts where the author says the opposite of what you are claiming.... You quote the lyrics of America is my home to prove a point...I quote the lyrics to like 10 songs that support what I'm saying...and YOU are the one who has provide evidence??? lol

nigga you a joke trying to justify your views by skewing those of real Black men of conviction and character...

  

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thebigfunk
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196. "very interesting post"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thanks for taking the time to air your thoughts...

I don't have much to contribute, but I will say that the relationship between popular black music/musicians and the long civil rights struggle has yet to really see much serious, noteworthy attention... most stuff I've read (including scholarly work) simply emphasizes that, yeah, music was around and vaguely supportive of the movement, it played a seminal role in unifying groups, yada yada...

Which is all fine and good, but such an approach - one that emphasizes the supportive connections between black icons/musicians and the movement(s) of the period - is pretty reductionistic. I know civil rights and black political history is seeing a bit of a resurgence from cultural historians, so I wouldn't be surprised if we get some solid stuff in the near future.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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197. "indeed."
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

It is a subject worthy of some serious research... I don't know who is gonna do it, though!

_____________________

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k_orr
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199. "could it be that the scholars looked into it and found nothing"
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

and decided to only report what they found, not what they didn't find?

What are we expecting to find, artists listening to speechs and writing new songs....pols hearing new songs and writing new speeches?

In Marable's book, X had a secret meeting with Ossie, Ruby, some other artists along with political types in order to start the OAAU. Manning makes it a point to say that Malcolm wanted to keep the ear of the artistic community..

one
k. orr

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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202. "No revolution can really take off without the support of the arts"
In response to Reply # 199


  

          

or pop culture anyway

It just seems that when talking about the intersection of the American Civil Rights movement and the arts, there's a certain well-worn party line that nobody has really strayed from.

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k_orr
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206. "makes me wonder about the artists behind "the Arab spring""
In response to Reply # 202


  

          

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Jan-17-12 11:12 AM

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223. "once again social media/Internet has taken music's place."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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224. "just what I was thinking"
In response to Reply # 223


  

          

but I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure if maybe there WERE some Arab MCs or something urging people to action.

Basically, FB and Twitter win again.

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SoWhat
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227. "there was a guy in Tahrir Square who sang protest songs w/a guitar."
In response to Reply # 224
Tue Jan-17-12 12:31 PM by SoWhat

  

          

i saw him profiled on '60 Minutes'. but other than him i don't recall hearing about musicians being instrumental in the revolutions.

fuck you.

  

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thebigfunk
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241. "RE: there was a guy in Tahrir Square who sang protest songs w/a guitar."
In response to Reply # 227


          

Google's our friend (at least a bit) on this one:
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/30/144477686/leaders-wanted-protest-songs-from-the-arab-spring

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/15/7758131-how-rap-music-fueled-the-arab-spring-uprisings

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/2011/oct/14/ (another one focused primarily on hip hop)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14146243 (yet another focused on hip hop)

Most of the above is pretty superficial (to me)... but that's hardly the fault of journalism. Social movements - like the American civil rights movement - generally both beg and defy periodization... on the one hand, they are often comprised of key events that draw our attention and make easy timelines tempting, but on the other hand those key events are usually just the froth of ocean waves (i.e., symptomatic of what's going on below, to borrow Braudel's metaphor).

The Arab Spring has deeper roots than we can see (both temporally and otherwise), and it will be much easier (and more fruitful) to explore music as an aspect of it when we're further away from it, I think... it *is* interesting that all of these articles suggest that hip hop is doing the work of protest music in multiple cases, rather than other potential forms/genres...


-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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thebigfunk
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242. "maybe"
In response to Reply # 199


          

but i doubt it.

I read Harvey Cohen's "Duke Ellington's America" over the break and was struck with how complicated his relationship to racial/civil rights issues, and the broader movement, really was. Cohen's argument was basically that folks are too ready to cast him as "pro-" or "anti-" movement, when really Ellington, he suggests, was always working to support the movement, but through his own work. For Cohen, the negative response of mid-century audiences was a sort of active forgetting of all that Ellington had done for racial issues prior to the coming of the civil rights movement proper... and was just as much a result of generational and sectional issues within the movement as anything else...

Whether you buy his arguments or not, he does a nice job of exploring Ellington less as Ellington and more as an channel through which issues of the day ran, intersected, diverged, etc... so you can see various aspects of the CR movement coming together and running apart in an individual, and sort of understand how each shapes the other... how the biographical shapes the cultural and vice-versa...

I'd like to see more work done along that line, using the biographical as a jumping off point for exploring certain aspects of musical history. Cohen's text suggests there's a lot there... we're just waiting for folks to smarten up and get to work...

(I can't speak for popular writers, but I think for professional/academic historians, these sorts of projects appear as "dream" projects, the sort of projects you only go for *after* you've reached a certain point in your career... which, honestly, is the way I see it. I'd love to pursue some of this stuff, and I might, but it won't be my diss or my first book by any means, because a job upon graduation would be nice...)


-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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lonesome_d
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200. "Caught a related piece on NPR today"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/16/145185983/can-hip-hop-change-the-style-of-politics

in which Spence touches on the fact that hip hop is essentially conservative, and the view of it as left-leaning stems from the inaccurate conflation of "Pro-Black" and "leftist."

Book sounds interesting; hadn't heard of it before.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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201. "I'll check it out."
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

When they speak of hip-hop being "conservative" are they talking about the Black Nationalist era or the "bling bling" era?

Because the case could be made for both.

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lonesome_d
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205. "both"
In response to Reply # 201


          

>When they speak of hip-hop being "conservative" are they
>talking about the Black Nationalist era or the "bling bling"
>era?
>
>Because the case could be made for both.

the author is a semi-regular on the Tell Me More 'barbershop' segment, I think, and an academic. One of his exercises was to analyze lyrics to, as he put it, 500 songs and put them to the test. They only talked about the idea of conservatism briefly but he did single out attitudes that were both pro-business and anti-welfare.

It was just a quick part of the conversation, and would probably be fairly easy to counter, and I didn't hear the whole thing. But the idea that a generally pro-Black artist(ic movement, in this case) was like... does Michel Martin read this site?

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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k_orr
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207. "such a painful interview"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

>in which Spence touches on the fact that hip hop is
>essentially conservative, and the view of it as left-leaning
>stems from the inaccurate conflation of "Pro-Black" and
>"leftist."

Doesn't get "good" until the end.

one
k. orr

  

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GumDrops
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Mon Jan-16-12 06:35 PM

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210. "isnt hip hop hard to pin down though?"
In response to Reply # 200
Mon Jan-16-12 06:35 PM by GumDrops

  

          

i think its politics might be too messy/contradictory to really define that clearly. rappers just want to get paid, fuck everything else, but they also spout the occasional left leaning lyric too (or they did, at least). but hip hop is prob the first rebel music to be so pro capitalist.

  

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k_orr
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212. "it definitely is"
In response to Reply # 210


  

          

And what they say on wax isn't necessarily the feelings of the audience, or even the feelings of the artist.

It's one of the main problems. Waka says X, therefore Waka's fans believe in X and will do things consisten with X.

We don't make the same argument about other things that the so-called hip hop generation.

"you know, those hip hoppers do drink a lot of Ciroc...maybe they're endorsing Franco-American trade agreements....Do recall the Courvosier endorsements and Louis Vuitton..."

smh.

  

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GumDrops
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Mon Jan-16-12 06:52 PM

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213. "i like lyrics about money"
In response to Reply # 212
Mon Jan-16-12 06:54 PM by GumDrops

  

          

i dont care. i want to be rich too! now i realise this isnt likely to happen, lol, but i still like those lyrics, and i still have my reservations.

  

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Amritsar
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Wed Jan-18-12 07:21 AM

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245. "RE: Caught a related piece on NPR today"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

  

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GumDrops
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211. "i thought it was accepted that JB was firmly in the booker t mould"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the first time i ever saw nelson george talking about his politics, that was what he was talking about... but i love that JB means so many things to so many people, it makes him more fascinating. he had more complex beliefs than the received wisdom you hear about him (radical 60s revolutionary etc) would have you believe.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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216. "Of COURSE he was. That much is self-evident."
In response to Reply # 211


  

          

To quote Brother James himself, "Blind man can see it."

Hell, even Warren Coolidge can see it! He admits that James is clearly devoted to the principles of Booker T. Washington, but the problem is that he is such a kneejerk liberal and married to the funhouse mirror image of Black Conservatives as self-hating darkie minstrels that he fails to realize that Booker T. Washington is generally considered the Messiah of the Black Conservative movement!

http://www.bookerrising.net/2004/05/welcome.html
http://www.bookerrising.net/2005/01/why-were-called-booker-rising.html

(note that this site describes itself as targeting "black moderates and conservatives, **regardless of party affiliation**... As I keep saying, it is not about Democrat or Republican)

Another Black conservative organization: http://www.btwsociety.org/

Here's a (non-partisan) Black conservative foundation run by Booker T's family: http://www.booker-t-washington.com/about.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_conservatism_in_the_United_States#Overview

"One of the main characteristics of black conservatism is its emphasis on personal choice and responsibilities above socioeconomic status and institutional racism. In the tradition of African American politics and intellectual life, black conservatives tend to side with Booker T. Washington as contrasted with W. E. B. Du Bois. For many black conservatives, the key mission is to bring repair and success to the Black community by applying the following fundamental principles:

-The pursuit of educational and professional excellence as a means of advancement within the society;
-Policies that promote safety and security in the community beyond the typical casting of a criminal as a "victim" of societal racism;
-Local economic development through free enterprise rather than looking to the federal government for assistance;
-Empowerment of the individual via self-improvement (virtue), conscience, and supernatural grace.

Black conservatives may find common ground with Black Nationalists through their common belief in black empowerment and the theory that black people have been duped by the Welfare state."

A man like Warren Coolidge may be well pleased to note the reference to a certain overlap between Black conservatives and Black Nationalists... but one of the key differences between them is that Black conservatives place much less importance on racial pride, which they sublimate in favor of national patriotism. And isn't that what James said in that quote I posted above? That you should be proud of **where you live** and not the color of your skin?

This article here talks a bit more about the occasional overlap between Black conservativism and Black Nationalism:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2009/10/what-is-black-conservatism/26617/

This portion here illuminates the confusion plaguing Our Coolidge:

Black Conservatives Are Sometimes Nationalists

At Think Progress, Matthew Yglesias says the ideological conflict within black politics has often been misread. According to Yglesias, Washington's legacy reveals that black conservatives are often misread as "timid appeasers of white supremacists," when in fact, they are "pessimistic about race relations and nationalistic in orientation." He explains, "Because this controversy within black politics is embedded inside a larger white-dominated political context it often gets confused," he writes. "Sometimes, as in the conventional reading of Washington, the black conservative appears to white American liberals to be the timid appeaser...other times, as with a Malcolm X, he looks like a dangerous radical black nationalist." Yglesias says the phenomenon of a black conservative "a la Clarence Thomas" aligning himself with the (white) conservative mainstream is recent, but that "even so, that didn’t mean there was no ideological conflict in black politics or that general rightist sentiments somehow didn’t exist."

The article also links to a nice Ta-Nehisi Coates piece on Bill Cosby's recent turn towards cranky conservatism:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/05/-8216-this-is-how-we-lost-to-the-white-man-8217/6774/

This portion here is revelatory:

"The split between Cosby and critics such as Dyson mirrors not only America’s broader conservative/liberal split but black America’s own historic intellectual divide. Cosby’s most obvious antecedent is Booker T. Washington. At the turn of the 20th century, Washington married a defense of the white South with a call for black self-reliance and became the most prominent black leader of his day. He argued that southern whites should be given time to adjust to emancipation; in the meantime, blacks should advance themselves not by voting and running for office but by working, and ultimately owning, the land.*

W. E. B. Du Bois, the integrationist model for the Dysons of our day, saw Washington as an apologist for white racism and thought that his willingness to sacrifice the black vote was heretical. History ultimately rendered half of Washington’s argument moot. His famous Atlanta Compromise—in which he endorsed segregation as a temporary means of making peace with southerners—was answered by lynchings, land theft, and general racial terrorism. But Washington’s appeal to black self-sufficiency endured.

After Washington’s death, in 1915, the black conservative tradition he had fathered found a permanent and natural home in the emerging ideology of Black Nationalism. Marcus Garvey, its patron saint, turned the Atlanta Compromise on its head, implicitly endorsing segregation not as an olive branch to whites but as a statement of black supremacy. Black Nationalists scorned the Du Boisian integrationists as stooges or traitors, content to beg for help from people who hated them."


*doesn't this should just like JB's "Funky President"!


Again we find the overlap between Conservatism and Nationalism. I earlier expressed some ambivalence as to whether Marcus Garvey was conservative or not... In essence, I believe that he was; but in the worldview of the modern Black conservative, the idea of Blacks leaving the United States is anathema, so I rule against him for that reason... And James Brown definitely said he was not leaving America where he wore continental suits and flew in private jets!

(Sorry for the long, rambling post... Was not my intention, but I just think certain concepts need to be cleared up)

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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217. "Oh, one more thing:"
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

Another nice excerpt from Coates, citing Garvey:

Garvey argued that blacks had rendered themselves unworthy of the white man’s respect. “The greatest stumbling block in the way of progress in the race has invariably come from within the race itself,” wrote Garvey. “The monkey wrench of destruction as thrown into the cog of Negro Progress, is not thrown so much by the outsider as by the very fellow who is in our fold, and who should be the first to grease the wheel of progress rather than seeking to impede.” Decades later, Malcolm X echoed that sentiment, faulting blacks for failing to take charge of their destinies. “The white man is too intelligent to let someone else come and gain control of the economy of his community,” Malcolm said. “But you will let anybody come in and take control of the economy of your community, control the housing, control the education, control the jobs, control the businesses, under the pretext that you want to integrate. No, you’re out of your mind.”


Would that mean that Marcus Garvey (and Malcolm X, for that matter) had "disdain for Blacks/the ghetto"?

What about Muhammad Ali? (I'm trying to see if I can find the clip in which he was saying similar stuff... I'll be back if I can get it)

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k_orr
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221. "always had a way with words (c) Phife's Granny"
In response to Reply # 217


  

          

> “The white man is too
>intelligent to let someone else come and gain control of the
>economy of his community,” Malcolm said. “But you will let
>anybody come in and take control of the economy of your
>community, control the housing, control the education, control
>the jobs, control the businesses, under the pretext that you
>want to integrate. No, you’re out of your mind.”

  

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SoWhat
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222. "exactly."
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

fuck you.

  

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thegodcam
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215. "great post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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218. "thanks!"
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

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Joe Corn Mo
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Tue Jan-17-12 09:46 AM

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220. "i agree."
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

  

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13Rose
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239. "This was a damn good read"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Next time don't put (long read) I took so long to open this post because I thought it was one of those (I aint reading all that shit) type posts. This was a decent size or maybe the subject just kept me locked in.

Good work sir.

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
www.debunkthemyth.org
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www.mothergreen.com

Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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240. "lol yeah after I posted it I realized it wasn't that long"
In response to Reply # 239


  

          

but when I was writing it, it seemed like I was going on forever, y'know?

In any case, my current Lesson standards I guess it is fairly long, so I just wanted to protect myself from the potential TLDR retorts!

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Warren Coolidge
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243. "James Brown speaks of solidarity with Elijah Muhammad 1968"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/jamesbrown.html

"My sole purpose is for my people. All Black people should take a stance and be free of the burden of submitting and catering to our opressors. Messenger Muhammad is right in accord with these times"




  

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Artful Dodger
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247. "See I was gonna go there... I'm glad you did."
In response to Reply # 243


          

they reissued that in the Final Call when he passed.

Scared of revolution my ass.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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264. "Finally(!) you come forward with some kind of solid evidence!"
In response to Reply # 243
Wed Jan-18-12 07:49 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

It's really encouraging to see that you are learning the proper way to present an argument or to attempt to refute one. You're making much progress!

(Sorry I'm replying this so late, btw... I read your reply this morning and wanted to respond immediately but I was running late so I decided I'd reply once I got to the office... When I got there, I discovered that OKP was going black for the day, but I didn't realize that the "back door" to the board was left open...

At this point, I'm not sure it's even necessary to reply anymore as you have since admitted yourself that James Brown was not a Black Nationalist, thus rendering the whole conversation moot. But what the hell... might as well just address it for posterity's sake)


>http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/jamesbrown.html
>
>"My sole purpose is for my people. All Black people should
>take a stance and be free of the burden of submitting and
>catering to our opressors. Messenger Muhammad is right in
>accord with these times"

Okay. This is VERY interesting. I'm very grateful to you for posting this because it represents a portal into another time and contributes a lot to the context of this discussion. And it surely is a concrete exhibit that seems to show James Brown making statements that could be seen as sympathetic to Black radicalism.

But truthfully... personally, I do not buy it.

It reads like a press release to me. The syntax is odd and does not sound like James Brown at all; it has none of his wit. Shit, he practically sounds like he's hypnotized or reading a ransom note in the last two paragraphs!

Some of the talking points (education, self-reliance, discipline) undoubtedly sound like James... but the parts where they have him referring to "Messenger Muhammad" sound slightly suspicious to me. I can see James calling him "Mr. Muhammad" or even at the very most, out of respect, "The Honorable Elijah Muhammad." But MESSENGER Muhammad?

As far as I know, the only people who ever referred to him as "Messenger" were those who truly bore the conviction that THEM was the Messenger of Allah ie Muslims. And James Brown definitely had no interest whatsoever in Islam.

But that's just the way *my* mind works and it's a minor quibble. I think that even if you do accept that every word in that article is verbatim from the mouth of the Godfather, it still kinda helps MY point that James was under a lot of pressure to placate the NOI and other radicals.

Check out how defensive James Brown sounds in that piece... like he's doing damage control, talking about how he's been misunderstood and/or misrepresented by the media.

But why would James Brown have to be defensive about proving that he is on the side of his people?

I'll tell you why.

That article you posted was published in Muhammad Speaks in October 1968.

In July 1968, Muhammad Speaks had taken some serious shots at James Brown and implied that he was a sellout. I don't have a link to the actual piece, unfortunately, but you can read a little about it here:

http://bit.ly/yFtfUG (EDIT: had to fix the link)

(If it shows up in snippet view, click on it to see the full page so you don't accuse me of trying to hide anything)

(David McCarthy was, by the way, the manager of the Apollo Theatre)

I think it's pretty evident that this was more or less James trying to pacify an increasingly radical Black audience that he felt might be turning away from him.

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mr_graff
Member since Jan 25th 2006
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Wed Jan-18-12 12:43 AM

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244. "interesting and good thread. ppl represented their points well"
In response to Reply # 0


          

For what it's worth, I don't think James was the Messiah people some made him out to be - just read the comments from people who were there during his peak period - but I think he definitely shifted/changed people's mindset up to 1975 or so.

One of my favorite JB moments is the long version of "Talking Loud and Saying Nothing" (I think) where he talks about the pilot not being qualified -- "It may not be my time" .. that alone says just because you're black doesn't mean you're best.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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246. "James Brown embodied Black Cultural Nationalism"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

James Brown was not himself a Black Nationalist so to speak, but he very much was the manifestation of Black Nationalism realized within America. There were others who demonstrated economic power by a Black artist...Sam Cooke, Ray Charles....there were others who had a messages of liberation in their music like Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions.... but none of them did this while on the cutting edge of Black people re-defining themselves from Negro to Black people.

whether or not James Brown suppored the Black Panther party and every specific tennant of their movement.. He more than any other public figure represented Black Power in America...as an American. A Black American Man....

any look at Black Nationalism or Black Power that limits itself to things like Garvey's desire to go Back to Africa..... or the Panthers call for an actual "Revolution" is really not an accurate look at the movements. Black Nationalism and Black Power evoloved into a philosophy would work for Black America. The back to Africa movement evolved into a Cultural move back to Africa as opposed to a physical one. The revolution that the Panthers spoke of evolved into a Cultural Revolution of the mindset of Black people in America. These evolutions where about making things work for Black American people IN America.... Again by focusing on some specific elements of the movement and contrasting them with the perceived views of James Brown is not only short sighted and narrow...but without looking at the context of how these movements evolved, you are simply not being accurate in your analysis....


Author Paul Vierkant in his book "James Brown and the Black Power Movement or Was America's Soul Brother Number One a Black Nationalist?" explained it this way.


"Furthermore, Brown was one of the first black American musicians to enter the white-dominated world of economics. Although he had never been close to black nationalists, he lived - consciously or unconsciously - their visions in great part. Yet he always stressed his belief in the American Dream and patriotism. Consequently, he can be considered a symbol of black cultural Nationalism and a patriotic American at the same time."

  

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Artful Dodger
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Wed Jan-18-12 12:23 PM

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248. "Amen WC "
In response to Reply # 246
Wed Jan-18-12 12:26 PM by Artful Dodger

          

thank you for that. I'll wait for another "your African American heroes aint shit post" and hopefully you will be there to set the record straight for that agenda filled rant as well.

I'll take Mohammed Speaks over Jet magazine any damn day. lol.

if it aint - black kids are responsible for the corrosion of the school system, it's funk came from Cuba, Fela influenced james and now James is afraid of revolution - what next? Prince has a white guy playing his guitar solos? lol... smdh..

dope WC
Peace to you!

  

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SoWhat
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249. "James Brown was not himself a Black Nationalist"
In response to Reply # 246


  

          

/end post.

LOL

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Wed Jan-18-12 01:09 PM

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250. "He actually starts his paragraph off saying that.... not to mention"
In response to Reply # 249
Wed Jan-18-12 01:09 PM by Artful Dodger

          

if you look at his business model - actually although he never embodied that principle openly... he was.

He ran his own business, eventually his own label, pushed his own products, under his own banner to his own people. *shrugs*

WC clearly says he wasn't a black nationalist but that he embodied those themes. Right on the mark.

  

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SoWhat
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251. "James was no revolutionary, but he wanted to see Black ppl succeed."
In response to Reply # 250


  

          

and he used himself as an example of how it could be done.

all of this is obvious.

LOL

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Wed Jan-18-12 01:34 PM

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252. "But to succeed in that climate by doing for self was revolutionary"
In response to Reply # 251
Wed Jan-18-12 01:45 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Also name me one popular star that was a revolutionary and I'll show you how they were not. lol.

Again singing on stage about "chant down babylon" is not revolutionary at all.

So to point the finger at James and not EVERY ENTERTAINER ALIVE is an agenda filled act.

what? was Quincy Jones a revolutionary? Bob Marley? No. even if you write an album called "I'm a fucking revolutionary".. if your not picking up a gun, waging war, or doing something to change the political/economic scope on the ground, then your fronting. I don't see no one pulling a spook by the door. Period.

sure we can say

Last Poets
Public Enemy
KRS...

but still that is not real revolution.

Also james brown never claimed to be anything other than The Godfather.

That being said while I enjoy this read - it's also useless and not accurate in the least. It's easy to pull the wool over people on a subject that's 30-40 years old and they are completely unfamiliar. *shrugs*

  

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SoWhat
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254. ". . ."
In response to Reply # 252


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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261. "WANTING Black people to succeed....and actually doing things"
In response to Reply # 251


  

          

>and he used himself as an example of how it could be done.
>
>all of this is obvious.
>
>LOL

to help them to succeed ...whether by deeds, words or actions are 2 entirely different things...

I could want to cure hunger in the world.....but if I were to do something or promote something to achieve that goal that hadn't been done before..or been done by someone like me before...then I've gone from wanting something...towards changing people's condition with my words and actions..

and that is about as revolutionary as it gets.

  

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SoWhat
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262. "my coworker has been a community activist and organizer since"
In response to Reply # 261


  

          

the late 60s. in the Black community here in Chicago, i mean. i asked him if in his opinion James was a radical. he laughed. hard. i asked if back then James was considered a radical, generally. he kept laughing.

word.

fuck you.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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265. "nobody is saying James Brown was a "radical""
In response to Reply # 262


  

          

it's obvious you're only willing to look at this issue in a very limited and narrow manner...

a person may not be a "radical" yet the actions in the context of their time may be very radical......

Jackie Robinson integrating baseball was extremely radical....yet he himself was not a "radical"..

not sure why you and a couple don't understand that disntiction...but whatever.

  

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BigReg
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278. "You could make this same argument about almost *ANY* black celebs"
In response to Reply # 265
Thu Jan-19-12 08:26 AM by BigReg

  

          

>it's obvious you're only willing to look at this issue in a
>very limited and narrow manner...
>
>a person may not be a "radical" yet the actions in the context
>of their time may be very radical......
>
>Jackie Robinson integrating baseball was extremely
>radical....yet he himself was not a "radical"..
>
>not sure why you and a couple don't understand that
>disntiction...but whatever.

Like, just by James being James and selling records you can argue that he was being radical, but that's a moot point to his personal beliefs, preferences, and who he saw himself aligned with at the time.

I mean I can get on my Toure and make similar arguments about Jay-Z and Nipsey Russel...hell even OJ Simpson(took on the one of the main institutions of class control, the court system/prison industrial complex and won!). Good post tho all around.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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253. "you responded with the first sentence of my own post...lolol."
In response to Reply # 249
Wed Jan-18-12 01:40 PM by Warren Coolidge

  

          

.

  

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SoWhat
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255. "right."
In response to Reply # 253


  

          

that's all you needed to say. that's what the post is about. JB wasn't a radical or a revolutionary, but some ppl have mistakenly identified him as one.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Wed Jan-18-12 02:15 PM

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256. "But the post says "James Brown was scared of revolution""
In response to Reply # 255
Wed Jan-18-12 02:17 PM by Artful Dodger

          

Not 'people misunderstood james and took him for a revolutionary'.

also dependent upon what point in his life you caught him - he might have had a different opinion. Catching him in 88 after he outran the cops and paid off the IRS... james was a broken man. Hell even comedian Paul Mooney talks about this. And cause of PCP was a much different person.

Also - this post is pointless cause it's not accurate.

Again, what other black man was doing what james did?

James set the model for quite a few entertainers including Fela..

he was way more revolutionary in terms of pop culture than he's being given credit for in this post.

  

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SoWhat
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257. ". . ."
In response to Reply # 256


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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258. "shrugs "
In response to Reply # 257
Wed Jan-18-12 02:36 PM by Artful Dodger

          

aint like history being re-written just cause a few OKps claim otherwise. no sir.

you can take this same limited scope of bs and apply it to

every black man in the military
every black man in corporate america
every black man in college

hell every brotha with a job...

but no, let's just put it all on James Brown. lol. smdh.

I would argue OKpers are more afraid of revolution than James ever was. trust and believe that.

  

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GumDrops
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259. "jb is pretty easy to project anything you want on to him"
In response to Reply # 258
Wed Jan-18-12 05:31 PM by GumDrops

  

          

he can be all things to all people, weirdly enough

and the late 60s/early 70s model of him as the 'real' or the 'ultimate' JB incarnation is pretty hard to resist/fight against as thats the image thats most passed on, whether through hip hop, or the wider culture that valorises that period of black music for its connection with important stuff happening in society, but i think JB is maybe too inconsistent about his political views to neatly fit any one definition/ideal of him we might have. hes not a chuck d or a dead prez or even a fela kinda guy. im cool with the idea that people can be certain 'types' of people as demonstrated by their actions, even if they themselves are not aware of what that is, but like most people in showbiz, seems like JB was really most interested in music/entertainment first (and i dont mean in a crass, bottom-line-only way, i mean in a love of entertainment/satisfying the paying audience way) and making something of himself as someone to reckon with, with politics and everything else second. he was respectful of the political movements happening in the late 60s, and felt he had to respond as that was the current of popular black culture at the time (not in a cynical way either)...

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
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Wed Jan-18-12 08:54 PM

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269. "damn, brother...he didn't mean that shit literally!"
In response to Reply # 256


  

          

it was a riff off of Niggas Are Scared of Revolution and i'm sure you're familiar with it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qW3F48s1fQ

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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Artful Dodger
Member since Nov 20th 2009
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Thu Jan-19-12 09:40 AM

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279. "I am but the way he spoke on him... had to be called out."
In response to Reply # 269


          

When black radio was being bought out by larger coporations...

it was James who funded many independent owned stations
it was james who did concert after concert to raise funds...

black disc jokeys all around the country said it was james who paid them the most, gave them the most light, even if just asking them to introduce the band. Mind you - it was a form of payola - he would even pay them 500 just to do the all star introduction. This solidified many careers.

It was James who would openly speak out about modern day atrocities, it was James who would travel from city to city during the riots in the 60's to calm the people down and get them 'off the streets'.

James was also the first to format his album which would become a staple in the Golden Era of hiphop - by at least having one inspirational song on your album - something many rappers did.

We speak of James in the public sense but I assure you, no other black enetertainer has done for the small black business owner, for the up and coming dreamer like James.

When Black owned Ma and Pop stores were being alientated by the majors in terms of access to releases, many stayed in business becuase of James and his crew and their releases. he often times would personally visit these spots to offer inspiration.

man heads don't even know.
Talking that ish as always.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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260. "I'm not here to purposely look at things without context"
In response to Reply # 255


  

          

>that's all you needed to say. that's what the post is about.
> JB wasn't a radical or a revolutionary, but some ppl have
>mistakenly identified him as one.


or to avoid analyzing things in an effort to keep them simplistic and to support some false agenda..

James Brown embodies Black Power ....Black Cultural Nationalism..... and was very much revolutionary both musically and was he stoof for and promoted..

now if you want to narrow it down to what you perceive to be his politics at a particular moment in time to avoid dealing with that.....that's on you.

But as I mentioned in my other post...that would be short sighted and really not an accurate analysis of Jaames Brown.

  

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SoWhat
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263. "sure, guy."
In response to Reply # 260


  

          

sure.

fuck you.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 09:42 AM

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280. "Pretty much - to mention Jet and not Mohammed Speaks"
In response to Reply # 260


          

shows you the agenda right there.

which is why I openly laughed at JEt.

Depend on Jet for pics, not journalism. Not to mention that is the ultimate form of taking something out of text - James meeting Nixon. James was the constant salesman, always 'on'.

Ask your self this question - when off stage when have you not seen James Brown smiling? That's cause he was always on sale, always.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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266. "This is interesting to me..."
In response to Reply # 246


  

          

>Author Paul Vierkant in his book "James Brown and the Black
>Power Movement or Was America's Soul Brother Number One a
>Black Nationalist?" explained it this way.
>
>
>"Furthermore, Brown was one of the first black American
>musicians to enter the white-dominated world of economics.
>Although he had never been close to black nationalists, he
>lived - consciously or unconsciously - their visions in great
>part. Yet he always stressed his belief in the American Dream
>and patriotism. Consequently, he can be considered a symbol of
>black cultural Nationalism and a patriotic American at the
>same time."

I've read Vierkant's paper (it IS a paper, btw... not a book) but something tells me you have not. In any case, it is extremely superficial and not that well written (maybe that's a fucntion of the translation, though, since it was originally written in German.)

But it's funny to me that I produced quotes from people in James Brown's camp, from people in the Black Power movement, from James Brown himself... and you rejected them all as being unreliable or "third hand accounts."

Yet to support your point you feel completely comfortable quoting a loose scholarly paper by an academic who not only never met James Brown but is not even from America and doesn't live in America!

But of course, nothing *I* say holds any validity because I am not a Black American.

It's a rather curious demonstration of your pathological intellectual dishonesty, I'd say.

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 09:44 AM

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281. "This quote could easily apply to you tho."
In response to Reply # 266


          

"Yet to support your point you feel completely comfortable quoting a loose scholarly paper by an academic who not only never met James Brown but is not even from America and doesn't live in America!"

lol.

I'm saying

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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283. "sure, guy."
In response to Reply # 281
Thu Jan-19-12 09:54 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

.

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Artful Dodger
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284. "Great avy btw. :) Hey I'm just saying your argument totally"
In response to Reply # 283
Thu Jan-19-12 10:17 AM by Artful Dodger

          

glosses over the mans accomplishments - it's quite ridiculous.

Some points were good - most were just your opinion from just one angle and using disgruntled employee comments from employees you would have never known anything about had it not been for the very man in question - well.. I'm saying.

Good post tho, great conversation and back and forth. Excellent topic. Just not on point. It's really easy to paint such an open, public figure, such a complex figure like James Brown but let's make it clear - you do not know the man from an apple on the floor or a hole in the wall. Your take on him is PURELY your take - and I honor that. I just don't agree with it.

It's not like this hasn't come up for James' fans - I have also asked this question but that was mainly in my formative years of learning about James. Once I was fully familiar with his work, interviews, and performances I realized something - he's an entertainer first. That's all I need from the man. He's also a success story and just like you don't see the black VP of Sprite yelling "keep it real" in a boardroom you won't see James watching it all wash a way for a few moments of ranting to appease the nationalist movement. Look at JayZ, studied with 5 percenters, Hebrew Israelites, and HTM... however do you really expect him to say "the black man is God" at a meeting? SMH.


However since your not from the US - I think perhaps maybe your just not getting it. Seriously - just the feel of things. Shrugs - it happens.

Thanks man hope this post continues.

Still a good post bro.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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285. "Hank Ballard was not a disgruntled employee."
In response to Reply # 284


  

          

>Some points were good - most were just your opinion from just
>one angle and using disgruntled employee comments from
>employees you would have never known anything about had it not
>been for the very man in question - well.. I'm saying.

and I posted plenty of quotes from the James Brown's autobiography.

The man's own words.

>Good post tho, great conversation and back and forth.
>Excellent topic. Just filled with alot of fake information
>conjured up to support a continued agenda.

Again: Everything point I made in this post was backed up with documented evidence, much of it James Brown's own words.

But hey... I made all that shit up.

I swear, sometimes you negroes be acting like the second and third guys here http://bit.ly/yDlmoH

when you should be the first.


>However since your not from the US - I think perhaps maybe
>your just not getting it. Shrugs - it happens.

LOL

Yeah... that's totally it.

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 10:29 AM

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286. "didn't you refer to him as just a sideman?"
In response to Reply # 285


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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288. "yes, and all sidemen are disgruntled, of course."
In response to Reply # 286


  

          

keep making that good sense, guy.... you're a winner!

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 10:33 AM

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289. "You just said he wasn't disgruntled. Now your saying he is?"
In response to Reply # 288
Thu Jan-19-12 10:43 AM by Artful Dodger

          

Which is it bro?

two posts in front of this 'hand ballard was not a disgruntled employee' now he IS a disgruntled sideman?

I would argue if your on record talking about someone - well...

  

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ninjitsu
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Thu Jan-19-12 10:35 AM

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290. "jesus christ."
In response to Reply # 289


  

          

  

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Artful Dodger
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287. "Um for those who have read that autobiography it was bullshit."
In response to Reply # 285
Thu Jan-19-12 10:33 AM by Artful Dodger

          

as I pointed out earlier in the post before it was mentioned.

The man praises Elvis, calls him the King. Are you kidding me?
haha

Jet? lol. Wow.

James Brown never shitted on anyone and always tried to make white folks feel comfortable and right at home. haha.. nevermind bro - keep selling your agenda. lol.

clearly you just don't know james Brown or get the man but you are the guy who claimed James didn't influence Fela first despite Fela clearly pointing out how hearing the man's music through another local musician changed his life, gave him direction and said clearly to him 'this is the way to go'.

but yea ok

haha...

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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291. "Okay. So I guess you know more about JB's life than he did himself."
In response to Reply # 287


  

          

I won't argue with authorities like yourself... clearly you are misstra know it all.

>as I pointed out earlier in the post before it was
>mentioned.
>
>The man praises Elvis, calls him the King. Are you kidding
>me?
>haha
>
>Jet? lol. Wow.
>
>James Brown never shitted on anyone and always tried to make
>white folks feel comfortable and right at home. haha..
>nevermind bro - keep selling your agenda. lol.
>
>clearly you just don't know james Brown or get the man but you
>are the guy who claimed James didn't influence Fela first
>despite Fela clearly pointing out how hearing the man's music
>through another local musician changed his life, gave him
>direction and said clearly to him 'this is the way to go'.

^^I never pointed this out, by the way... and Fela never said that, either^^

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 10:46 AM

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292. "No it's just James was constantly selling something - himself."
In response to Reply # 291
Thu Jan-19-12 10:52 AM by Artful Dodger

          

He was wildly famous, a huge success, many people depended on him and he did all of this while speaking on issues of the day, being open about his pride, and showing others how it's done.

Yes if you follow James work - you will see that he NEVER dogged anyone. Even if they deserved it. Elvis was the King? He was my friend? And shit like that. Those are actual statements btw not from me or an interpretation. That book reads like it was written in the 4th grade it's so damn positive are you kidding? lol.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture - what were you expecting to find a speech on black nationalism?

It's very clear that book was as middle of the road as it gets -

let me ask you this.. have ever heard James Brown use the word "Nigga"... now do you think he ever used it in his personal life?

Same thing bruh. There was the public figure and then there was the man behind closed doors. Your pulling and stretching bro.

Also again - show me an artist who was a revolutionary. Seriously.

  

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Artful Dodger
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Thu Jan-19-12 10:59 AM

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293. "So Fela never spoke on Geraldo Pino playing James?"
In response to Reply # 291
Thu Jan-19-12 11:11 AM by Artful Dodger

          

and how it influenced him?

http://books.google.com/books?id=QVjQ07b1GPAC&pg=RA3-PA1&lpg=RA3-PA1&dq=when+did+fela+learn+about+james+brown&source=bl&ots=yRSrdj2aOY&sig=UyBJlAZqfSTCqvXotLS-FuIrN8k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q0EYT4P8Berb0QGFg4G4Cw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=when%20did%20fela%20learn%20about%20james%20brown&f=false

"“They were great, I must be frank with you. They copied James Brown throughin, throughout every note, every style. And they had the equipment…Before they came into my country, bands only used one microphone, at the time a whole band. But they came in with five microphones, and the sound, it’s deep you know, so nobody wanted to hear anyone but the Heartbeats…they drove everyone out of the market.”

After seeing this Pino I knew I had to get myself together, quick!”*

FAK

I'll get you anothe article as well where he talks about Pino comign to town in a nice car, jewelry, new sound system banging James and how it influenced everyone.

I'm definitely not a know it all and for the record I enjoyed your post man - seriously. This took balls to post. I just don't agree with all the angles.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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267. "James Brown embraced the role of Black Messiah (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://books.google.com/books?id=ehSBVZUQpSIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


This is something from the James Brown Reader: 50 years of writings about he Godfather of Soul....edited by Nelson George and Alan Leeds.

One of the more interesting passages describes a trip that James Brown took to Gabon in 1975.

"In the United States James Brown is regarded as the King of Soul. In Africa he is the king of all he surveys. An African vistit from James Brown has all of the ceremony usually accorded to a visiting head of state. Indeed, Brown does regard himself as an ambassador from Black America to Black Africa. For his most recent visit (January 1975) to Gabon, an oil rich, West African Nation he was bet at the airport by screaming thousands and an honor guard. Motorcycle-escorted limousines whisked him to an audience with a President."

now I'll skip ahead a bit....it talks about how well James Brown was recieved and his meetings with the President of Gabon and other dignitaries......

but the important part is what James Brown said on his way back to America regarding the trip...

"On his way back to the US, Brown reflected on his newfound audience and power: This is the first time I've ever received this kind of treatment. I've been to Africa many times but this is the first time I've ever received this kind of treatment in my life anywhere. I have a new concept as a man."

A new concept as a man...

Now what was that concept exactly.

Brown went on to say:

"Every century has a MESSIAH; people look on me as a MESSIAH in AFRICA because they see I can bring all BLACK people together. The Africans may have the money to save Black people."

Brown went on to make it clear that his efforts were not for his own personal gain.

"Everything I do is for Black People. I don't need the money. I've grown into a world figure, international sounds too small. From now on I'm gonna be involved with the world. When I stopped the ritos in Washington, one of the national magazines called me the most powerful Black man in America. They've also said I'm the most powerful Black man in the world."

Now there are some more things I'll be pointing out from this reader...but I wanted to take a moment to cut to the crux of the debate we are having...

one of the problems with all of this...and something I haven't addressed yet in this thread is the idea that James Brown was "scared" of revolution..

Scared...

Affraid...

here is the problem with that...

James Brown had no problem accepting the roll of the Black Messiah who could unify BLACK PEOPLE (let's be clear that I'm sure he wanted to unite all people...but the quote from this entry has Brown speacking of specificlly about uniting BLACK people.)

Scared.....yet accepting of the role of Black Messiah..

Black Messiah...

where have I heard that term before...

oh yeah...I remember...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/COINTELPRO-FBI.docs.html

above is a link to actual released FBI documents related to the cointelpro program....a program where the government sought to infiltrate and destroy Black movements, groups and people they viewed as being "dangerous".....

and what was the purpose of those efforts???

"2. Prevent the RISE OF A "MESSIAH" who could unify, and
electrify, the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been such a "messiah;" he is the martyr of the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael and Elijah Muhammed all aspire to this position. Elijah Muhammed is less of a threat because of his age. King could be a very real contender for this position should he abandon his supposed "obedience" to "white, liberal doctrines" (nonviolence) and embrace black nationalism. Carmichael has the necessary charisma to be a real threat in this way."
______________________

So James Brown was scared of revolution...yet embraced a role that basiclly put in in the crosshairs of the FBI.

can't have it both ways...




  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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268. "wow... what a specious argument."
In response to Reply # 267


  

          

I don't even know where to start unraveling, there are so many loose, ragged threads to choose from.

Well... I guess a good place to start would be asking you to link properly when you are presenting a passage as evidence. You accused me of doctoring links to conceal information, meanwhile your own link didn't direct to the passage you're supposedly quoting.

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Warren Coolidge
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270. "click on the link..it takes to you the reader..."
In response to Reply # 268


  

          

scroll through it..

I would guess that the passage I quoted is from the section titled "back to africa"....lolol.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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271. "It takes you to the front page, not to the quoted passage"
In response to Reply # 270


  

          

Hell, the link even says "front page" in it

Anyway... The passage you quoted is not at all convincing to me... the case you'e trying to make with it requires too many logical and linguistic stretches.

That being said... I went and took a look through that James Brown Reader and I found a piece called "James Brown vs. Negroes" by Ray Brack which I think actually helps your case somewhat (though in other ways it helps mine).

See... Unlike you, I am intellectually transparent: I don't deliberately ignore evidence that seems to contradict my position, nor do I attempt to conceal it. I'm not afraid to let everything be out in the open and I will very willingly address every piece of evidence that comes my way, even if it hurts my case.

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Warren Coolidge
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272. "lol..dude I haven't even begun to provide evidence...."
In response to Reply # 271


  

          

>Hell, the link even says "front page" in it
>
>Anyway... The passage you quoted is not at all convincing to
>me... the case you'e trying to make with it requires too many
>logical and linguistic stretches.
>
>That being said... I went and took a look through that James
>Brown Reader and I found a piece called "James Brown vs.
>Negroes" by Ray Brack which I think actually helps your case
>somewhat (though in other ways it helps mine).


this contest was decided a while ago...you provided some quotes and some points to prove a very narrow...very limited view that James Brown was not literally a radical...was affraid a revolution...and was more in line with Larry Elder/Hermain Cain politically... or something to that effect..

those arguments have been slayed...

my main purpose in all of this really had nothing to do with your so-called evidence...which is probably why you think I'm ignoring it...it's not that it's being ignored..it's that it's relevent to my larger point....Which is to explain and demonstrate WHY James Brown is viewed as being associated with the so-called Black power movement...WHY his life and efforsts manifest the concept of Black Cultural Nationalism....and because of the context when and how it occured..was very much Revolutionary......

you're promoting the idea that James Brown association with Black Power or Black Nationalism is not legit and just the outcome of uninformed American Negros wanting to view the man in a way that was not consistent with reality.... While Warren Coolidge is methodically showing WHY he is associated with those philosophies...and why he is the perfect manifestation of Black Cultural Nationalism....




>
>See... Unlike you, I am intellectually transparent: I don't
>deliberately ignore evidence that seems to contradict my
>position, nor do I attempt to conceal it. I'm not afraid to
>let everything be out in the open and I will very willingly
>address every piece of evidence that comes my way, even if it
>hurts my case.


look...all I know is in 1975 James Brown accepted the role of a Black Messiah and desired to link Black people from Africa and America together for economic liberation. That was about as revolutionary and radical as it comes.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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274. "Well, then what are you waiting for?"
In response to Reply # 272
Wed Jan-18-12 11:21 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

Show us the evidence... Like I said, I will confront every bit of it, piece by piece. No flinching.

>this contest was decided a while ago...you provided some
>quotes and some points to prove a very narrow...very limited
>view that James Brown was not literally a radical...

LOL you're funny, man... sometimes I think you just use certain words without any regard for what they really mean or signify.

"narrow"? "limited"? The point that I made was far more original, complex and (dare I say) courageous than anything you've said here. For real.


>those arguments have been slayed...

This is the other thing you do that is increasingly annoying.

You just make the same false statement over and over in the hopes that if you repeat it enough, it becomes true.

When did you "slay" my arguments? When you were busy avoiding all my evidence?

Look at the post where I reproduced JB's quote about how he feels you shouldn't have to shout about your color... Look at all the replies under it. Do you see your name there? You very carefully avoided addressing that.

Look at the post where I went at length to explain Booker T. Washington's central role in the formation of Black Conservative identity, completely invalidating your earlier claim that Booker T. has nothing to do with any conservative philosophy. Did you respond to any of that?

No... You didn't. So please explain to me when and where you "slayed" anything.

Especially when you yourself admitted that James Brown was not a Black Nationalist or a radical (despite the fact that earlier on you claimed he was).

And then you claim that you "slayed" my argument? When you're flailing and backtracking all over the place?

See... This is why I said that I can't deal with your intellectual dishonesty. This could have actually been a very enlightening debate about the various public faces of a very complex man... but you insist on reducing everything to these cloak & dagger games.

I can't deal with it, man... I don't play those games. Get real or get lost.


>you're promoting the idea that James Brown association with
>Black Power or Black Nationalism is not legit and just the
>outcome of uninformed American Negros wanting to view the man
>in a way that was not consistent with reality....

You wanna link up the post where I said ANY of that.

This... *need* you have to defend the poor American Negroes from AFKAP at every turn really makes me think that you have some strange complex. I think you have a problem with your racial self-esteem or something... which is why if AFKAP says something like "Afro-Cuban rhythm played an important part in shaping modern African-American music" you automatically interpret it as "You're saying that ignorant American negroes can't do anything for themselves!"

It's strange... But I think it is *your* problem, not mine.


>look...all I know is in 1975 James Brown accepted the role of
>a Black Messiah and desired to link Black people from Africa
>and America together for economic liberation. That was about
>as revolutionary and radical as it comes.

LOL That was just James Brown talking game.

In his second autobiography, I Feel Good (published in 2005) he talks about the Gabon trip and reveals that he was chiefly interested in the fact that the government of Gabon wanted to invest in him and have him build an ultramodern recording studio. But the talks soon broke down and then that was the end of that... James wasn't talking no more "African messiah" stuff after that!

Even in the piece you quoted, you can see that James talked about the fact that "the Africans have the money"... It was a business thing. I'm not saying that he didn't feel any pride or connection with these Africans on any level, but really... It was the business potential he was most excited by.

Go do your research.

I'm done talking with you about this, by the way. i think I have presented enough evidence in this post to make my point (while you have offered little to none). So I'm gonna rest my case.




*snort* this nigga talking about he "slayed" something... smh

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Warren Coolidge
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Wed Jan-18-12 11:08 PM

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273. ""Like Mr. Muhammad say...do for your self" - James Brown 1971"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"A message from James Brown"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfQ0pMKpeJk

This is a very interesting statement from James Brown in 1971. One could make some real comparisons between what James Brown says here in 1971 to what Bill Cosby said about Black people.

basiclly saying....get yourself together...

but does Brother Brown refer to any Black Conservatives...to Booker T. Washington...or any fukkin Republicans as far mentioning the Black people doing for self???

Hell no...

around the 5:35 mark or so he proclaims "Like Mr. Muhammad say.....Do for yourself"!!!!

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Wed Jan-18-12 11:32 PM

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275. "sure, guy (c) SoWhat"
In response to Reply # 273


  

          

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Warren Coolidge
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Thu Jan-19-12 12:21 AM

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276. "Richard Nixon on "Black Power""
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Thu Jan-19-12 12:25 AM by Warren Coolidge

  

          

interesting quote from a Richard Nixon speech....Gives you a view of How and why Black entertainers like James Brown and Sammy Davis may have been convinced to Support Richard Nixon being re-elected.

Well not withstanding the behind the scenes audio of Richard Nixon showing a complete disdain for Black people.... During his first successful campaign, and again during his re-election..he basiclly courted the Black vote by expressing support for the concept of Black power and actually refering to so called "millitants" as merely desiring economic freedom...

"President Richard Nixon himself could sympathize with this definition of Black Power. He declared in a 1968 speech that "hat most of the militants are asking is not separation, but to be included in--not as supplicants, but as owners, as entrepreneurs--to have a share of the wealth and a piece of the action." Federal government programs, Nixon said, should "be oriented toward more Black ownership, for from this can flow the rest--Black pride, Black jobs, Black opportunity and, yes, Black Power."

Can you imagine one of these clown republicans running today saying something like this.... I mean Nixon actually used the term millitants saying they don't want seperation....they simply PART of America. One could argue...probably successfully that Brown and other Blacks were being mislead by Nixon...but that does not minimize the fact that the strategy was used..

The fact that the strategy was used tells us a couple of very important things. First of all it tells us that the concept of Black Power = Economic power was something that even the President believed the public would accept...not just Black people, but White people. "Millitants" want to be a part of America...there is no way on earth that any politician or advisor would float that idea to the public unless there was some very tangible probability that the idea would be accepted. Even Richard fukkin Nixon felt it possible that America ..even White America could accept the idea that Black power was about more than seperation or violence. Whether he personally believed it or not, Richard Nixon professed it publiclly for the purpose of getting votes.

so again..the idea that James Brown's connection with the Black Power movement has to be superficial or illegitimate because he was really a "conservative" is just damn foolishness.... and shows a complete lack of understanding of the times...and the facts.

The other thing that Nixon speech tells us is that ....unlike today....the identification of a person as having Black Cultural Pride wasn't something that a Republican President saw as being "bad for America". or should I say that at least he professed it to be less than negative publiclly.....obviously based on Nixon's tapes, he did not respect Black people. But again....in a speech to gain favor from the public he referred to Black Pride, Black Jobs...Black opportunity...in a POSITIVE WAY. Again can you imagine one of the current Republican Candidates doing that today??? Hell....Hermain Uncle Ruckus Cain wouldn't have even said that shit...lol.

So really all this to say that James Brown's support of Nixon wasn't about kindered conservative spirits joining together to advance a conservative cause. It was about the fact that James Brown grew up in the south during a time when the Republicans weren't standing against civil rights, while Democrats did........and when he became Soul Brother #1...the fukkin Republican President Richard Nixon reached out the the Black Power movement with a level of respect...and with federal loan programs and the other monies that supported Brown's vision of independent Do For Self Black Communities.


oh..got that quote from this article:

http://socialistworker.org/2011/10/25/black-power-era

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jan-19-12 01:41 AM

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277. "I said I was done, but I can't let these half-truths go uncontested."
In response to Reply # 276


  

          

I think about the impressionable kids who might stumble upon this post and be misled by your mendacity and half-ass research.

>the fukkin
>Republican President Richard Nixon reached out the the Black
>Power movement with a level of respect...and with federal loan
>programs and the other monies that supported Brown's vision of
>independent Do For Self Black Communities.

It's true that there was an upsurge in Black capitalism in the late 1960s and early 70s, but this notion that Nixon really gave a serious hand with loans and the like is greatly exaggerated... as well as your assertion that Nixon reached out to the Black community with a level of respect.*

http://bit.ly/zDRBK0 (be sure to read the WHOLE article)

A key passage:

"Nixon never really gave a damn about boosting minority enterprise," recalls one black official who served in the Administration. "He {Nixon} simply wanted to keep the 'natives' quiet. And, to some extent, he accomplished this by paying lip service to the black capitalism concept.

"Unfortunately, too many blacks felt that he was sincere in his efforts, and even today, there are those who will tell you that Nixon did more than any other president to aid minority business development."

The article's unidentified Black official in the Nixon admin, by the way, was likely Andrew Brimmer, who was in the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve and thought that that Nixon's "Black capitalism" initiative was a politically motivated empty gesture.

Also, I should note that the Black Panthers also rejected Nixon's "Black capitalism" idea as a pandering Jedi mind trick designed to dilute their movement.



*I mean, like... seriously, dude? This is how far it's gotten, that in order to support your shoddy arguments, you're looking for ways to embrace and venerate Richard M. Nixon--whose administration was noted for the most over-the-top ruthless suppression of Black radicals, including giving police orders to murder Black progressives on the spot?

Damn, man... that is some next-level tomming if I ever saw it. It ain't that deep. You don't have to dishonor your forefathers like that just in the name of winning some dumb argument on the Internet.

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Artful Dodger
Member since Nov 20th 2009
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Thu Jan-19-12 09:45 AM

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282. "from this post? lol."
In response to Reply # 277
Thu Jan-19-12 09:54 AM by Artful Dodger

          

wow - taking ourselves way to serious are we?

This post is chock full of half truths and poor insight. haha.



"I think about the impressionable kids who might stumble upon this post and be misled by your mendacity and half-ass research."


What Warren ACTUALLY said:
interesting quote from a Richard Nixon speech....Gives you a view of How and why Black entertainers like James Brown and Sammy Davis may have been convinced to Support Richard Nixon being re-elected.

Well not withstanding the behind the scenes audio of Richard Nixon showing a complete disdain for Black people.... During his first successful campaign, and again during his re-election..he basiclly courted the Black vote by expressing support for the concept of Black power and actually refering to so called "millitants" as merely desiring economic freedom..

  

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BigReg
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Thu Jan-19-12 11:25 AM

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295. "Post is going to valhalla before it it goes bad"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Gonna lock it on first page for today before putting in in the archives. Print it & steal it for your thesis statements/blog posts ot Toure' -esque Public Access TV show rants.

  

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