I'm gonna go with:

1. Billy Eckstine
2. Leroy Carr

I'll give my reasoning later if I get time, but I'd like to hear your picks and why.

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I see you on Sam Cooke... but Leroy Carr birthed Sam's style. Basically, "soul" singing in general can be traced back to him, pretty much.

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sam cooke is far more influential on everyone who came after him.

and every black musician who went for a more secular, "big" show, like say Jimi, George, or Prince owes James a huge debt. He showed how much success you could have outside of the chitlin circuit. Plus his talk-sing style on stuff like "Mind Power" and stuff that laid down the foundation for rap.

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True... and everything you said was on the money however I would give that last line a revamp - I would say The Last Poets before James and even Cab Calloway for rap.

But his voice haunts all of their vocals, whether they know it or not.

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One covers what would be the future of vocalists

the other what would be the future of music.

because their singing styles reflect the influence of Carr and Eckstine, respectively.

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maybe it was the Mafia support that caused that disconnect...
but when you read up on the respect that man had... how Miles respected him... and how more importantly he as a

showman
entertainer
vocalist
bandleader
he was a bad motherfucker.

Not to mention if I'm correct he was Miles first pro gig playing with Billy E as a youngin.

Let's not forget the time period too.. he was doing things cats can't pull off now!

However I wouldn't give Eckstine the credit for Sam Cooke - Sam was a church boy and that's where he got it from. The other portions however - how to work a crowd, rock a show... I can see that.

This one: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1EV0TJJxmTE/S-Gx06nGLNI/AAAAAAAACho/Je1iA48m6ns/s1600/a3e63757b3aa67e1_landing.jpg

It's more complex than just that, of course.

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But did you know how many times that man had a hit on his life and the mob who financed him supported him?

His story is some Harlem Nights action for real.

All cause of that damn photo but what's wierd is everyone knew he was sleeping with white women. It's the south that must have caused that uproar on some "uppity" nigga shit. lol

I would also argue that as the times changed he was totally looked upon as the Mafia's 'boy'.

>But did you know how many times that man had a hit on his
>life and the mob who financed him supported him?
>
>His story is some Harlem Nights action for real.
>
>I would also argue that as the times changed he was totally
>looked upon as the Mafia's 'boy'.

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* My grandfather told me one time Billy Eckstine came to town in the South and how all the white women told their boyfriends they had either a 'girls' scout meeting or a 'woman's carnation' to attend just so they could sneak to the show. Although he performed in the South not nearly as much as up north where he had a residency at the clubs of all clubs.

I don't think he ever wrote an autobio but man, he should have!

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whew.

would it be fair to say he was the barrier breaker before Nat?

and try to find Dingo - original soundtrack and everything.

It takes place in Australia and Paris.

Kinda cheesy and long in some parts - but it has Miles.

Speaking, acting and everything.

>It's more complex than just that, of course.

Eckstine is that dude, but I can believe this story...

know told me a story once about how the Mafia was in bed (literally) with the Temptations and Diana Ross and how when Diana wanted to stop seeing this one mob cat... he threw her from a moving car. She was in the Hospital and the Don came to see her, flooded her hosptial room with white roses, paid her bill, and basically pampered her until she got out. Then started dating her.

smh.

Crazy.

Billy Eckstine's band was the training ground for

Miles
Bird
Diz
Blakey
Sarah V
Fats Navarro
Dexter Gordon

He basically gave birth to bebop with that supergroup

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Round Midnight? With Dexter? I had no idea.

I even heard he was nominated for an Oscar or there was talk of it?

Speaking of movies and jazz players..

Dingo - featuring Miles. Man I love that movie and Miles "princely" window ways. haha...

Or well... I think I did try to watch it once but I wasn't paying attention because I was not really into jazz like that by then.

I need to check that movie out now... thanks for reminding me!

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I'm still trying to find it. Great cinematography, script, soundtrack. yeah man.

though i think the smoothness quotient has been upped several notches since he was around.

and it's since become a hallmark of a certain kind of black male singer

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I vote Nat King Cole and Sam Cooke.....


But hey, that's just me...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

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For Nat, it's easy...His phrasing, vocalization and polished style would have a HUGE influence on pop music in the 50's and '60s....From Johnny Mathis to Burt Bacarach (he claims a lot of the vocalists he chose for his compositions were inspired by Cole's "classy" vocals) u can hear it...

As for Sam Cooke? It could be argued that he is the most important vocalist in black music history....

He basically set the modern day template for what would become soul music...Because he was the first known singer who was credited with actually creating the "soul" music style of singing that would dominate the late 60s and all of the '70s...From Marvin to Aretha to Stevie to Charlie Wilson, Cooke's impact on R&B "singing" was mammoth...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

...a child is born with no state of mind, blind to the ways of mankind, god is smilin' on you and frownin' too, because only god knows what you gonna do...©melle mel

  

if we're talking pure influence.


the other one would be tougher maybe. Sam Cooke definitely could be the other..I'd consider Marvin Gaye.

As far as Stevie Wonder.....very influential...but I'd say Donny Hathaway would be ahead of him.

not that he wasn't... but kinda showed him the platform of songwriting, emotion. He was on point as a kid but.. yeah I see that.

when he was at best a regional star who was not that well known during his life?

The main person I think he influenced is Howlin' Wolf, though... But I don't hear his vocal style being particularly influential on a wide scale. That gruff, incoherent bellowing... who else sings like that? Not even James Brown comes from the Patton school, really.

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?? shrugs?

He was a nobody until white rockers made him the god of the blues

(In any case, he was trynna sound like Leroy Carr too)

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the Library of Congress was too busy running around trying to just 'get em on tape' for future reference. I think the Leadbelly movie covers this (don't know if I'm mixing it up with something else) but yeah too true.

27 songs his entire life on record.

However probably way more beyond the recordings.

Still out of those 27 most major guitar riffs, progressions all taken from him.

I was thinking more along the lines of his vocals but you answered that... really Carr?

Didn't see that coming cause he's a grunting/moaning mfer. lol

or "Kind Hearted Woman Blues"... RLJ was a crooner, really.

The thing about RL is that apart from his technical wizardry on the geetar, a lot of his repertoire was actually quite derivative. (lonesome_d has written extensively about this in this past)

One person that RL had a direct influence on I think (outside of the rockist context) was Pops Staples, who was his boy back then. But other than that, Robert L. Johnson exerted little influence on the development of Black music until the rockers discovered him in the early 60s.

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to listen to him

yeah it's true Jimmy Page, Ron Wood, Eric, they all loved and stole from Robert Johnson. However I don't know if that's an actual truth only cause Pops Staples, Curtis Mayfield and a host of others have cited his work as influential.

Now for my money was Charlie Christian more of the innovator? In terms of recordings.. yes I would say that. However I would have had to live in the time period to really know if it was true innovation for Christian or Parker or just that it made to record before anyone else.

Also keep in mind however, what are now standard chord progressions and riffs prior to him just weren't displayed on record.

I'm going to have to look into the Robert Johnson comment, it makes sense however.

gotta be honest tho I'm still not convinced Robert J was a crooner.
I'ma pull out his recordings now.

I was just about to say that I can hear it, though... but really, I can't.

Curtis was not really a bluesy player. I mean, if you listen to the Curtis/Live! LP, you can hear him struggling (and failing) to play a blues solo on "Check Out Your Mind."

I don't know if Curtis had any really strong influences as a guitarist... maybe some of the gospel guys, but his style was really unique. And remember that he was completely self-taught, and that he played with a very strange tuning (F#) that he said he arrived at because he thought that was how you were supposed to play and there was nobody around to tell him otherwise.

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his progressions which were natural to him where often times theoretically wrong but have a history in blues .. here's why -
when he was learning guitar he learned the old blues trick of tuning to the black keys only (sharps and flats). That along with the top three string trick of having the strings only one step up from one another causing a palatable three to four string chord arrangement. Totally blues - I have a documentary where he speaks about Robert Johnson - although briefly.

However you could easily argue that some of the riffs have Johnson influence. Riffs ONLY however hahaha...

I still don't hear much blues in Curtis' playing, though...

I have to think about it.

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the tuning and how he learned to play - he said blues recordings and some gospel records. Beyond that he came into his own but I hear the riffs... like that classic Mayfield riff - you know the one, that is Robert Johnson. However at that point everyone was playing that riff. Now where Robert got it from - the Crossroads or what have you - lol is debateable.

>or "Kind Hearted Woman Blues"... RLJ was a crooner, really.
>
>The thing about RL is that apart from his technical wizardry
>on the geetar, a lot of his repertoire was actually quite
>derivative. (lonesome_d has written extensively about this in
>this past)

I know I've referenced the direct allusion to the MS Shieks; and maybe the way I see 'Last Fair Deal Gone Down' copping somewhat from 'Don't Let Your Deal Go Down'. But the 'Robert Johnson Stole Too' post was inimitably OKP jefleejohnson (though man, I wish I knew what post it was in response too).

But yeah, basically, that "folk-process" method of appropriating melodies was incredibly common, especially after a big hit. Literally hundreds of songs were written in the '30s using the melody from 'Sitting ON Top of the World.' See also the Lomax/Waters interview I linked elsewhere, where Muddy frankly admits to borrowing the melody from elsewhere.


>One person that RL had a direct influence on I think (outside
>of the rockist context) was Pops Staples, who was his boy back
>then. But other than that, Robert L. Johnson exerted little
>influence on the development of Black music until the rockers
>discovered him in the early 60s.

There were lesser-known but not unpopular guys like his 'stepson' Robert "Jr." Lockwood and Honeyboy Edwards, but they're kinda footnotes even if they had a big record or two between them.

Part of the problem I think is that Johnson's star rose and set right at the tail end of the country blues boom, which peaked around the period from 1928-1932, but by the time Johnson's records came around had been hit hard by the Depression and, of course, changing tastes. By most accounts the last commercial country blues recordings were made in 1939 or 1940... that Tommy McClennan 'Deep Blue Sea Blues' I'm so crazy about (version of Catfish Blues, but recorded long before Muddy) comes from a session that I've seen referenced as the last country blues session (though I'm not certain of the accuracy of that memory, or that statement if I did see it, esp. since McClennan himself had a few more sessions).

Where I think Johnson's influence starts to shine is actually before the rockers got hold of him, with Elmore James, who takes Johnson's pyrotechnics (and a song or two) and adds an eerie-=sounding homemade pickup and BAM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKo80b-QfK0

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>He was a nobody until white rockers made him the god of the
>blues

his star (in the white world) was already on the rise at the time of his demise. If memory serves, John Hammond tried to book him for Spirituals to Swing, but Johnson was already dead; Hammond instead played a Johnson record (don't remember which one) to the sold-out Carnegie Hall and called him 'the greatest of the blues singers' or something equally hyperbolic. (Of course, they booked Big Bill as his replacement for the country blues artist, though Bill had already moved on to making proto-Chicago blues.)

At any rate, his legend had certainly come to the attention of the Lomaxes by the early 1940s, though they somehow or other didn't realize he was dead. It was on the trip where (legend has it) they were looking for him when they found McKinley Morganfield playing backup guitar for Son Simms's string band, and recorded him - setting the wheels for so much more to come in motion.

At any rate, they ask Muddy about Johnson during the recording. Transcript of the first interview portion here, though it loses some of its punch without the musical interludes: http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/lyrics/muddy_waters/interview_with_alan_lomax.htm

(Very interesting to note that Muddy says there the first piece he ever tried to learn was How Long Blues. mmmmmm.)




>(In any case, he was trynna sound like Leroy Carr too)

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>his star (in the white world) was already on the rise at the
>time of his demise. If memory serves, John Hammond tried to
>book him for Spirituals to Swing, but Johnson was already
>dead; Hammond instead played a Johnson record (don't remember
>which one) to the sold-out Carnegie Hall and called him 'the
>greatest of the blues singers' or something equally
>hyperbolic. (Of course, they booked Big Bill as his
>replacement for the country blues artist, though Bill had
>already moved on to making proto-Chicago blues.)
>
>At any rate, his legend had certainly come to the attention of
>the Lomaxes by the early 1940s, though they somehow or other
>didn't realize he was dead. It was on the trip where (legend
>has it) they were looking for him when they found McKinley
>Morganfield playing backup guitar for Son Simms's string band,
>and recorded him - setting the wheels for so much more to come
>in motion.

Yes, yes... Yes, I actually knew all this, but you know... my current reductionist posting approach often glosses over the finer points in favor of the big, controversial punch!

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* WEll said every bit of it.

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avy by buckshot_defunct

Yeah... that makes complete sense.

Who else took after Wolf vocally? Waits?

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Well, he tried at least on songs like "Love me two times". Not saying that he sounded like him but I'm fairly sure that's what he was going for. Glenn Danzing is also inspired by Howlin' Wolf even if he mixed it with Elvis and Roy Orbison...

Hell... "Break on Through" is clearly patterned after "What'd I Say" too lol

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Howlin Wolf. But let's say that was his only influence on other Blues vocalists. Who did Howlin Wolf influence??? Mick Jaggaer???? Elvis Presley????

just on that...that's a pretty influential lineage. Plus if we're talking about just vocals on record...that's one thing. A lot of the people being discussed on this post have certain distinctions as live performers also...Sam Cooke...... even James Brown.

Charley Patton was a Singer who was a performer...a showman.... from all accounts very unique in his style in that way, and certainly ahead of hit time.

>just on that...that's a pretty influential lineage. Plus if
>we're talking about just vocals on record...that's one thing.

But I worded the post "most influential VOCALISTS" rather than "most influential performers" or "most influential artists" for a reason.

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~~~

I haven't listened to quite enough of the Carr/Blackwell original recordings to comment extensively, but it's certainly an intriguing choice.

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avy by buckshot_defunct

(since I've been on my whole "retrace the development of the blues" kick, I've been re-immersing myself in stuff like that, Tampa Red, Broonzy, Lemon Jefferson, Memphis Minnie)

and listening to L. Carr now, I can just hear him as the father of modern Black pop singing.

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that would be the question considering most brothers if not any were on record yet.

Or maybe he was just adapting the kind of smooth singing that was standard for pop singers of the day anyway... after all, some people have called him "the Black Bing Crosby"

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he HAD to sound that way to even get played or heard.. hahaha..

I mean we know how the racial dynamics worked then.. .hell look at the Soggy Bottom Boys lol.

it would work the other way around - kind what Billy had to do, but he just had so much flair and flavor it was incredible.

>(since I've been on my whole "retrace the development of the
>blues" kick, I've been re-immersing myself in stuff like that,
>Tampa Red, Broonzy, Lemon Jefferson, Memphis Minnie)
>
>and listening to L. Carr now, I can just hear him as the
>father of modern Black pop singing.

it's that Carr and Eckstine both represent the smooth or pop side of Black vocal traditions, where the rough-voiced singer has been just as popular and important.

Carr wasn't alone; I kind of see him as a more urban kind of blues singer, even though he & Blackwell still qualify as country blues; an antecedent of west coast lounge-blues and to an extent the less shouty midwestern blues singers like Joe Williams (not Big Joe Williams). Josh White's output from the early '30s is in the same boat to me - a kind of urbane, sophisticated... grooviness that really stands out from the country blues crowd and to my ears at least represents something more... modern.

As far as blues go, I tend to associate Carr's legacy with the Memphis school - esp. fellow pianists like Memphis Slim and Sunnyland Slim. But that (vocal) influence could also be attributed to the rich, buttery (though not necessarily smooth) tones of Frank Stokes, who's not called Father of Memphis Blues for nothin'.

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avy by buckshot_defunct

>it's that Carr and Eckstine both represent the smooth or pop
>side of Black vocal traditions, where the rough-voiced singer
>has been just as popular and important.

and I realized that about 10 minutes after I posted and wanted to edit but the replies had already started coming in.

In truth, I think what I really wanted to discuss was the evolution of the bluesy, urbane crooner tradition... I kinda had it on my mind because I was listening to Carr and thinking about a documentary I watched a few years ago that traced the African American crooning tradition primarily to an through the tradition of the Italian American crooner.

Which is not to say, of course, that Carr was not influenced by the Italians himself... but this documentary (wish I could remember what it was called) skipped most of the Black antecedents altogether and more or less presented the case Sam Cooke and Marvin Gaye were the sons of Mario Lanza and Tony Bennett.

(Of course, Marvin DID cite the likes of Perry Como as his main influence and what he wanted to be)

>Carr wasn't alone; I kind of see him as a more urban kind of
>blues singer, even though he & Blackwell still qualify as
>country blues; an antecedent of west coast lounge-blues and to
>an extent the less shouty midwestern blues singers like Joe
>Williams (not Big Joe Williams). Josh White's output from the
>early '30s is in the same boat to me - a kind of urbane,
>sophisticated... grooviness that really stands out from the
>country blues crowd and to my ears at least represents
>something more... modern.

Why would you consider Carr & Blackwell country blues? Blackwell's solo recordings I can agree with you, but once he teams up with Carr, I don't hear anything country about it... Though I'll admit that my own personal prejudices generally lead me to hear all piano-blues duos as inherently "urban."

Can you think of some good examples to disabuse me of this notion? I tend to think of country blues players mostly as singers who accompany themselves on guitar or some other stringed instrument. No piano!

>As far as blues go, I tend to associate Carr's legacy with the
>Memphis school - esp. fellow pianists like Memphis Slim and
>Sunnyland Slim. But that (vocal) influence could also be
>attributed to the rich, buttery (though not necessarily
>smooth) tones of Frank Stokes, who's not called Father of
>Memphis Blues for nothin'.

I've not listened to as much Frank Stokes as I should have (of course I know the really popular hits like "Ol' Sometime Blues" and "I Got Mine")... He's often on my mind, though, because I that R. Crumb book you sent me sits right at my eyeline at my workspace!

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>Why would you consider Carr & Blackwell country blues?
>Blackwell's solo recordings I can agree with you, but once he
>teams up with Carr, I don't hear anything country about it...
>Though I'll admit that my own personal prejudices generally
>lead me to hear all piano-blues duos as inherently "urban."
>
>Can you think of some good examples to disabuse me of this
>notion? I tend to think of country blues players mostly as
>singers who accompany themselves on guitar or some other
>stringed instrument. No piano!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn44uIgDG8I

Skip's basically playing guitar on piano though, and technically, he's not a duo.

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so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

>Why would you consider Carr & Blackwell country blues?
>Blackwell's solo recordings I can agree with you, but once he
>teams up with Carr, I don't hear anything country about it...
>Though I'll admit that my own personal prejudices generally
>lead me to hear all piano-blues duos as inherently "urban."

and my own prejudices tend to lead me toward geographic and chronological guidelines; urban/ctiy = post-war Memphis and Chicago and to a lesser extent St. Louis. Stylistically, the most critical difference to me is the expansion of the lineup to include bass and drums.
(And yes, I know Carr/Blackwell went to St. Louis... but their style does not feel to me like it had much contribution to the local big-bad jump blues style that evolved there in the '40s.)

>Can you think of some good examples to disabuse me of this
>notion? I tend to think of country blues players mostly as
>singers who accompany themselves on guitar or some other
>stringed instrument. No piano!

Though they weren't as widely recorded or heralded as the guitarists, there were a fair number of pianists in the Delta. Most famously Pinetop Perkins (peaking of which, I didn't recall that he'd died in March; was there an RIP post on that? Hard to believe if not.), though his fame came after his move to Chicago.

My mind is blanking on others right now but I could probably dig a few up... if I were at home I could get out that Gioia book since I know he deals with the question a bit.

(If you're on a piano blues kick, though, it'd be interesting to compare some Champion Jack Dupree to Leroy Carr & co. and see what similarities and differences you can find.)

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

if you want to trace that end of things wayyyyyyyyyy back (though ive not really heard enough of his music aside from a few youtube links, only read about him), but in post war terms id prob go for sam cooke to represent the smooth side (though of course sam could get raw when he wanted too), and ray charles for the rougher, gruffer, rawer, bluesier side of singing. there is prob someone pre-ray but im drawing a total blank right now. louis armstrong maybe?

strangely I don't think of Louis Armstrong as a "rough" singer... maybe because a lot of the material he did was not rough per se. Maybe because his image sort of neutralized the roughness and made it seem whimsical.

Ray Charles was a Leroy Carr disciple too, btw... Some of his earliest records were even Carr covers!

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

.

fuck you.

And remember that the sound that we today recognize as gospel was actually adapted from the blues.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

are you saying blues came BEFORE gospel?

thats worse then chicken n the egg

But the current gospel sound developed when former bluesmen (most notably George Tom Dorsey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_A._Dorsey) went back to the church and injected a new rocking energy to spiritual music.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Negro Spirituals
Blues
Modern day Gospel/hymns

however it would be fair to say that both Negro Spirtuals and Blues affected what is now Modern Gospel. Hell even some pop of the day.

.

fuck you.

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latest mixtape:
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IG: mistamonotone

>


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'I love to watch him dance. It's almost like watching a cat clean itself or something.'(c) Drugs regarding Prince

RIP

aka the good old fashioned School Me on Leroy Carr post.

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latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
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@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

I was skimming the post for links

Bandcamp/IG/FB/Twitter: @hecticzeniths

http://youtu.be/KNpLtkZNzZs

It's been covered by like a million people

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

and not just as a guitar player....

Etta James called him her primary influence early on as a singer.

if you throw in his vocal influences on the likes of Jimi Hendrix and Sly Stone...

that's a pretty nice list.

it's amazing how people have slept on this dude.