Think about it, four tries in and she's still stumbling through albums with a hodge podge formula of incredibly inspired singles, clunky aims at the dance floor, and vapid ballads. She's yet to put it altogether, despite being infinitely more talented than any other female pop performer working today.

So is she the first icon without an iconic album? I mean think about it, you could do any genre and name said artists seminal work or even better have to argue over which which is in fact their opus; Prince, Michael,Metallica, Jay-Z, Stevie, Springsteen, etc.

Is this a product of her singles-reliant generation? Or has she simply gotten by on immense talent and charisma despite her spotty output? What do you attribute this to?

For what it's worth I fully believe she still has it in her

even bigger LOL at her or Jay-Z being an icon.....ew

--

>even bigger LOL at her or Jay-Z being an icon.....ew

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kev

Nope...Diana and The Boss are looked at as classics.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

>
>
>Nope...Diana and The Boss are looked at as classics.....


with the iconic album... you can hold up the cover
and normal people (meaning, not music heads) recognize the album
cover.

the naked baby from nevermind...
the beatles walking across the street on abbey road...
prince on his purple motorcyle in purple rain...
MJ in his glowing white suit on thriller...


that's iconic.

normal folks might think that "rock with you" was on
the thriller album... but that doesn't change that
the fact that the album itself is iconic.


"diana" and "the boss," although are great (really great) albums... but they're not iconic.

>>
>>
>>Nope...Diana and The Boss are looked at as classics.....
>
>
>with the iconic album... you can hold up the cover
>and normal people (meaning, not music heads) recognize the
>album
>cover.
>
>the naked baby from nevermind...
>the beatles walking across the street on abbey road...
>prince on his purple motorcyle in purple rain...
>MJ in his glowing white suit on thriller...
>
>
>that's iconic.
>
>normal folks might think that "rock with you" was on
>the thriller album... but that doesn't change that
>the fact that the album itself is iconic.
>
>
>"diana" and "the boss," although are great (really great)
>albums... but they're not iconic.


Hmmm...You talking about album covers now?...lol

"I'm Coming Out" is an iconic song from an iconic album no matter how you slice it..."Upside Down" was an iconic song...Iconic production from Nile Rogers...Iconic music that was later sampled by one of the greatest hip-hop artist of all-time (Biggie) for one of his biggest hits? And yeah, an iconic album cover...(see: iana_ross.jpg" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil iana_ross.jpg)

I know folks on Lesson like to downgrade Ross' impact....But I'm not getting on that train...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

You just never get it do you?

>You just never get it do you?


Who are you?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

>
>
>Nope...Diana and The Boss are looked at as classics.....

both in and out of the Supremes.

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no one ever mentions her albums, just the singles


>She's yet to put it altogether, despite being
>infinitely more talented than any other female pop performer
>working today.

say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????????


>So is she the first icon without an iconic album?

i'm sure we could list dozens, and it is a curious phenomenon, but great albums weren't always the barometer of a great artist (or performer or writer) anyway. maybe that was always too artificial and arbitrary.


>For what it's worth I fully believe she still has it in her

why?

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but I guess she's got the Diana LP from 1980.

But even then...

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>But even then...

albums weren't exactly her forte, but I would admit that album was her Off The Wall/Thriller if she ever had one

everything about it, the cover, the title, the music... is something I think of when I hear her name

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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He has a bunch of very, very non-iconic albums.

________________________________
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I keep tellin folks. She needs some top notch producers: Jam n Lewis, Babyface, Bernadette Cooper, etc. You let these folks work with her and watch what happens.

Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Jennifer Hudson-I Remember Me
Jill Scott- TLOTS
Shanice Wilson-Discovery
Alexander O Neal-Self titled
PROCK/CLSMOOTH-MATSB
Evelyn King-Get Loose

Not that she surrounds herself with yes-men per se, just that once she has a vision she's locked in on that and her focus cannot be compromised by anyone. I mean hey after all she's Beyonce, after "Crazy In Love" or "Single Ladies" I probably wouldn't have been thinking about altering the gameplan much either.

"Best Thing I Never Had." That sh!t sucks.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

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Yeah. Im not feelin that one. He needs that old Babyface magic. Its like he is trying to use these new sounds by other writers.

Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Jennifer Hudson-I Remember Me
Jill Scott- TLOTS
Shanice Wilson-Discovery
Alexander O Neal-Self titled
PROCK/CLSMOOTH-MATSB
Evelyn King-Get Loose

>I keep tellin folks. She needs some top notch producers: Jam
>n Lewis, Babyface, Bernadette Cooper, etc. You let these folks
>work with her and watch what happens.

wow, someone still thinks its 1987.

I love all those names you mentioned, but they don't resonate with Beyoncé's target audience, most of whom probably weren't born until 1988 in the first place.

She's a singles artist.

There's nothing wrong with that.

James Brown was a singles artist.

(and no, i'm not saying Beyoncé is on the same level as James, so stop right there.)

--me--
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the shirells

chuck berry

little richard

the temptations (have some good/ great albums, not iconic though)

the supremes

the jackson 5 (great singles, but only diehards know the albums)

janet? (she has great albums, but have they been canonized by the main stream? only "we" know them.)

the isley bros.? (again, great albums... but not in the mainstream cannon. only "we" know them. the mainstream ain't up on "3+3")



plenty of singles artists are icons.

Like a Virgin is an iconic album, right down to the cover.

You could also make the case for True Blue.

Some might even argue for Ray of Light.


>the jackson 5 (great singles, but only diehards know the
>albums)

The Jackson 5 are the same as The Jacksons, who have Destiny, Triumph and Victory.

>janet? (she has great albums, but have they been canonized by
>the main stream? only "we" know them.)

Control.
Shit, Rhythm Nation too.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Like a Virgin is an iconic album, right down to the cover.
>


it strikes me as an iconic video. and an iconic single.
i never hear anybody talk about this album, though.
don't get me wrong... a lot of people BOUGHT the abum...
but i don't know if it ever got to be in the cannon of albums
folks consider iconic.

ray of light seems like a better argument...
since she reinvented herself for that, and word was that
the entire album was great.




>>the jackson 5 (great singles, but only diehards know the
>>albums)
>
>The Jackson 5 are the same as The Jacksons, who have Destiny,
>Triumph and Victory.


not really.
the jackson 5 were washed up before the jacksons
dropped destiny and MJ dropped off the wall.
that's why it was such a big deal when they came back...
they had grown up.

there is no one jackson 5 album that a "normal"
person would recognize as THAT album...
(and don't get me wrong, those albums were great...
but they aren't iconic... they were known for their singles.)



>
>>janet? (she has great albums, but have they been canonized
>by
>>the main stream? only "we" know them.)
>
>Control.
>Shit, Rhythm Nation too.
>


again, rhythm nation (and maybe control) are iconic
videos... but only the r&b heads think of control, the album,
when they think of "control."

"janet." might be a better argument for janets iconic album,
just based on how popular that cover is. but i think most people
think of that photo as a "rolling stone" magazine cover.


iconic doesn't mean classic, or even that it sold well...
the album itself, as an album, (not the video or the single)
has to have etched itself into the collective consciousness.


Janet has certainly done that,
but not based on an iconic ALBUM.

& lol @ the notion that only R&B heads are checking for control.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

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the album really ain't discussed though.
but i will grant you, if janet DOES have an iconic album...
it's rhythm nation. especially with the black and white
cover. if she has one, it's this... not control.



>& lol @ the notion that only R&B heads are checking for
>control.


it's a classic. it sold a bunch of records.
and it's iconic for folks that are my age... (mostly black) kids
that grew up on it... and feel like they grew up with janet.


but iconic? janet's albums are certainly iconic to
black folks.

i rarely, if ever, hear the album brought up with my
white friends that are the same age.
and never by the rolling stone crowd/ rockist/ mainstream
crowd.


i think the OP was talking about albums accepted
universially as iconic (universaillay = the white folks
know about it)


janet's videos have that status, but not her albums.

the singles are universally known
if anyone SEES the album, they know what it is
it's iconic, deal widdit

same goes for janet.

as for madonna, i dunno. ray of light, i think. what jumps out to me, tho, is erotica. that whole period for her -- the album, the sex book, "truth or dare" -- she was at her peak in terms of significance at that point.

as for your entire list above, it's weird to list artists whose primes came before the rise of the album as a major artistic format. of course they don't have iconic albums. they weren't even trying to make albums.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

>the singles are universally known

i agree, 100 percent.


>if anyone SEES the album, they know what it is


they know WHO it is...
they know it's janet...
but the album cover doesn't register like the naked baby on "nevermind" or prince's motorcycle on "purple rain."

well, actually, maybe the rhythm nation cover does...
because it looks exactly like the video.
so i'll give you that.

same with the janet. album, because it looks like the
rolling stone cover.

so i see your point.
that's fair enough.




i still don't think folks know madonna for her albums, though.



>as for your entire list above, it's weird to list artists
>whose primes came before the rise of the album as a major
>artistic format. of course they don't have iconic albums. they
>weren't even trying to make albums.



i agree. but they were the first folks i thought of.

when it came out. That album cover is seared into my memory and undoubtedly that of most kids I grew up with, considering its ubiquity and delectable combination of innocence and sex. The only other Madonna album I can say that I really remember without trying is "Hard Candy," which is simply because until I took a close look at it, I thought it depicted her licking a dildo, and that seemed kind of crazy.

Of course, I don't know how GOOD of an album "Like a Virgin" is. I see that it only has two big singles on it and I don't really think the rest was that memorable.

--

is pointless and maybe even a little disingenuous.

_____________________

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after their initial run of hits on motown,
the jackson 5 was washed up.

they had a hit single with "Dancing Machine"
in the late 70s, but "dancing machine" was an anomolly...
most folks thought they were finished.
so it was with little fanfare that they moved to CBS,
where they released two albums (i think) that
didn't make much of a splash.



the beginning of the MJ that we saw in the 80s
started with the "Destiny" album, and was brought into full bloom
with "off the wall."

in short... the jacksons albums that you mentioned
were a product of MJ's newfound stardom when he started
writing and producing his own material on CBS...
NOT a continuation of his initial run with the jackson 5 on motown.

maybe if they had a continous stream of hits spanning from
"i want you back" to "don't stop till you get enough,"
i wouldn't make the distnction.


but it didn't happen that way.
there's a definite gap between the "jackson 5"on motown and the "jacksons" on CBS.

and the jackson 5 was a singles group.





>is pointless and maybe even a little disingenuous.
>
>

>in short... the jacksons albums that you mentioned
>were a product of MJ's newfound stardom when he started
>writing and producing his own material on CBS...
>NOT a continuation of his initial run with the jackson 5 on
>motown.

when Destiny dropped before Off the Wall?

In any case, your arguments are sounding like weak rationalizations to me... Analyzing when their "run" or "hot streak" stopped or started and whether it was the result of MJ's stardom or any other factor is pretty irrelevant.

The question is whether there are any "iconic" albums released by the Jacksons (and I maintain that for the purposes of this argument, the Jacksons and the Jackson 5 can and should be read as the same group).

YES. There are iconic albums by the Jacksons.

The reasons why and when they had those iconic albums? Completely different discussion.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>>in short... the jacksons albums that you mentioned
>>were a product of MJ's newfound stardom when he started
>>writing and producing his own material on CBS...
>>NOT a continuation of his initial run with the jackson 5 on
>>motown.
>
>when Destiny dropped before Off the Wall?


i meant the "shake your body down to the ground"






>>The question is whether there are any "iconic" albums released
>by the Jacksons (and I maintain that for the purposes of this
>argument, the Jacksons and the Jackson 5 can and should be
>read as the same group).
>
>YES. There are iconic albums by the Jacksons.
>
>The reasons why and when they had those iconic albums?
>Completely different discussion.



fair enough. i'm nitpicking.
you do it, too.

>Like a Virgin is an iconic album, right down to the cover.
>
>You could also make the case for True Blue.
>
>Some might even argue for Ray of Light.
>
>
>>the jackson 5 (great singles, but only diehards know the
>>albums)
>
>The Jackson 5 are the same as The Jacksons, who have Destiny,
>Triumph and Victory.
>
>>janet? (she has great albums, but have they been canonized
>by
>>the main stream? only "we" know them.)
>
>Control.
>Shit, Rhythm Nation too.
>

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was that on her debut? i'm not super familiar with
her catalouge...

anyway... madonna for singles, vidoes, media savy,
interviews, sheer star presence... iconic.

madonna's albums?
i still don't see it.

5 of the 8 songs on it were hit singles to varying degrees (Holiday, Lucky Star, & Borderline all Top 10 Billboard with Burning Up & the first 12-inch Everybody were both Top 5 dance tracks).

The album sold six million copies for a debut by a female artist, was ranked #50 in Rolling Stone's Top 100 album of the 1980s in their decade wrap-up book that came out in the 90's & more recently was ranked fifth in Entertainment Weekly's Top 100 albums of the past 25 years (on both occasions it was her highest-ranked album above even Like A Virgin).

So yes, it makes the cut for 'iconic' by most measurements on critical or commercial levels.

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to Serious Artist.

RIP

fuck you.

again, when i think madonna,
i think videos and singles (for the most part).

i'm pretty sure that's what other folks remember, too.
although this post is making me think i might be
behind the curve on this one...

i thought MTV and the singles defined madonna
in most people's eyes.

i don't even own it. but i hear it praised.

Like A Virgin gets more mentions though, for sure.

fuck you.

Seriously lol. What alternate universe did that acid take you to

Nothing More.
Nothing Less.

She's never had an album where folks were like "This is the album that defined her career."

It's not too late for her to do it.

What pisses me off about her and Ursh is that they're both superstars and they both are in a place to take risks and do something different, but instead they just lather, rinse, repeat. That's sad.

She DOES however have songs that'll be played and remembered long after she ceases to exist.

Icons (IMO) say "f**k it" and go left and do something no one would expect. Not to say that that particular mentality always works, cause it doesn't. That move has to be calculated.

Some play it safe and stay in their lane.

Bey is that artist to me.



RIP

We see her over and over and over and over again so you think she is an icon.

whomever's in the public eye a lot for a short period of time...

Yeah.

That sucks.



RIP

>We see her over and over and over and over again so you think
>she is an icon.

doesn't necessarily mean she makes the best music or is the deepest artist, but she is without doubt an icon.

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also see cheapskeighkiller's volume artist theory

I think he has the defining album with "Confessions." I even think he has the album where he tried to go left, with "Here I Stand." I thought the more mature direction he was going for was a good idea, but it was executed terribly. I wish he would've tried it again with the next album, but he went back to what worked for him in the past.

----

https://weketchum.contently.com/

>Icons (IMO) say "f**k it" and go left and do something no one
>would expect. Not to say that that particular mentality always
>works, cause it doesn't. That move has to be calculated.

no, it doesn't


>Some play it safe and stay in their lane.
>
>Bey is that artist to me.

she either doesn't see it that way or does but wants to come across like she is taking big risks because it's always something, whether it's splitting an album into 2 discs, "afrobeat," "working with" diplo and sleigh bells, etc.

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on the level we're discussing here?

i don't think so.

note: she's 1 of my favorite singers, ever.

fuck you.

only janet jackson, aerosmith, metallica, and the cure are.

i'm not sure where the line is being drawn for an icon, but i'd argue for her inclusion before chaka khan. quietly i'd argue that her recording of "over the rainbow" is 2nd only to judy garland's in terms of prominence (despite its absence from the wikipedia entry on the song....WTF?)

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MTV aside.

fuck you.

i'm not putting any stock in its designations. again, i'm not sure she's not a pop icon. she performed at oprah's final show right? doesn't that count for something in the pop canon? i mean that more seriously than i did the mtv reference.

she's definitely an R&B icon, though. i'm not sure this post is limited to pop icons, necessarily. it might be tho, and i'd hate to belabor the point. i sufficiently see your point abt her not being a pop icon not to unnecessarily contest it.

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LOL

fuck you.

------------------------------

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There is gonna be a time in the not to distant future when you are gonna read about how either bday or crazy in love were classics and vh1 is gonna even have a ultimate albums about it even though we all know that while they are good(well C.I.L is really good bday was cool) neither was iconic at all.

The machine will MAKE them have iconic albums ..see: Reasonable Doubt(and I love jay but in 9-6 no one was touting it as an iconic album..it was a great album but no essential classic like people will have u believe)

With that being said without question beyonce is an icon
She just has not had an iconic album

i am... sasha fierce was considered a pretty great album by many?

divided we fall

I don't know about musically, but conceptually the general reaction seemed like many people regarded it as kind of a joke. That's not too "iconic."

--

the fact that she is legitimately considered an icon is the only thing we need to consider here. yeah, she's an icon, but that's not saying anything more than there is a massive void of quality options at the moment.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

--

Dangerously close?....lol


Dude is wallowing in that shit with a cheese grin.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

>
>
>Dangerously close?....lol
>
>
>Dude is wallowing in that shit with a cheese grin.....

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

lol...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

------------------------------------------
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During the Supremes prime years, albums were not really a focus for labels...It was all about the singles...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

.

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is her first solo album that propelled her to icon status. original poster established she's an icon, not me. the album is why. i didn't say the album is great but stop playing, okp. better yet, tell me about GOAT, iconic r&b albums in the 2000s by nobodies.

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*
*
*

Deja Vu
Get Me Bodied
Upgrade You
Ring The Alarm
Freakum Dress
Irreplaceable

Ring The Alarm was the only one that wasnt an anthem

She became the ruler of black women with Get Me Bodied, Freakum Dress, and Irreplaceable

becuz while they are iconic artist they are also some of the most talented artists EVER.

Beyonce may be iconic cuz she hot and got a good singing voice but she aint a proper artist. her shit is formulaic music.........some ol factory line shit. she got her hot singles an thats it. even the thought of her droppin a born to run or purple rain is LAUGHABLE.

THIS is it.

Sometimes, an 'iconic album' is just an album with a gang of individual songs that people like the hell out of. B-Day fits the bill for that EASILY. And I'm not what you'd call an over-the-top Beyonce fan. She's Houston to the core and that helps her for me, but still...this list of songs...

>Deja Vu
>Get Me Bodied
>Upgrade You
>Ring The Alarm
>Freakum Dress
>Irreplaceable

All on the same album? And most of those would easily make a Bey greatest hits. That's all it takes sometimes. If you're a big artist and one of your albums is a shoe-in to be almost half-represented on a GH, that's your album.

And while we're on it...Kitty Kat was the jam too. Green light, Suga Mama, and Resentment...not bad 'filler' if we're gonna go there.

Last thing: the way people treat albums now is also responsible for an album with a slew of hit/good/beloved songs being swept away. The way artists release a gang of loose (ie: not on an album) material in short periods of time doesn't help 'albums' either. It doesn't matter if a Beyonce tours off of one album for 2-3 years, which..in this era is insane when cats like Rawse, Curren$y, Wayne, and Drake have 50+ songs a year. In the past, carrying 10-15 songs for more than a year was a clear sign that those songs were probably pretty slamming. Hell..Al Green didn't even do that, and who is gonna say he didn't have albums and songs galore? Isleys too. Another convo...another time...

Beyonce gets a lot of hate because its a fair argument that she has 'missteps' that shouldn't happen. And maybe B-Day is lacking the super-slamming ballad that folks feel like she should be capable of, but hey..a 10-song album with half as legit hits and the 'filler' being liked. B-Day is it. And I Am had songs too, but it suffers from the normal double album issue.

Tangent: Rihanna's is a pretty big deal in this era, but SHE is the one without an iconic album from what I know. She seems to jump from song to song and album to album with little to nothing in the way of a strong album for her to post up with.

Jimaveli

>Ring The Alarm was the only one that wasnt an anthem
>
>She became the ruler of black women with Get Me Bodied,
>Freakum Dress, and Irreplaceable

>Sometimes, an 'iconic album' is just an album with a gang of
>individual songs that people like the hell out of.

>Tangent: Rihanna's is a pretty big deal in this era, but SHE
>is the one without an iconic album from what I know. She seems
>to jump from song to song and album to album with little to
>nothing in the way of a strong album for her to post up with.

Because if you are gonna say the first, then Rihanna's Good Girl Gone Bad is her iconic album (IF you think she's an "icon" -- which I certainly don't):

Umbrella
Don't Stop the Music
Hate That I Love You
Take A Bow
Disturbia
Rehab

And that's not counting "Shut Up And Drive", which was another hit, but not something I feel people LOVE, "Breakin Dishes", which was a dance hit, or the duet she did with Maroon 5, which was pretty big worldwide. She promoted that album for a good 2 years straight.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

Welp...color me wrong there..she has an 'Iconic album' too then. And all of that wasn't Beyonce karoake either. Its scary to think that a cat like Timberlake is 2 for 2 and shouldn't be argued against. If he dropped Future Sex/Love Sounds 2-5 years later, I can't imagine how monsterously huge he would've been.

Jimaveli

>>Sometimes, an 'iconic album' is just an album with a gang
>of
>>individual songs that people like the hell out of.
>
>>Tangent: Rihanna's is a pretty big deal in this era, but SHE
>>is the one without an iconic album from what I know. She
>seems
>>to jump from song to song and album to album with little to
>>nothing in the way of a strong album for her to post up
>with.
>
>Because if you are gonna say the first, then Rihanna's Good
>Girl Gone Bad is her iconic album (IF you think she's an
>"icon" -- which I certainly don't):
>
>Umbrella
>Don't Stop the Music
>Hate That I Love You
>Take A Bow
>Disturbia
>Rehab
>
>And that's not counting "Shut Up And Drive", which was another
>hit, but not something I feel people LOVE, "Breakin Dishes",
>which was a dance hit, or the duet she did with Maroon 5,
>which was pretty big worldwide. She promoted that album for a
>good 2 years straight.

shes not that kind of artist. shes about singles. same as someone like missy elliot (yeah i know she has supa dupa fly and so addictive but i still dont consider either of those 'great albums') or aaliyah even.

you dont need a great album to be an icon.

its never been the case that you do.