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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:07 PM

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"Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"


  

          

Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to its basest elements.

No matter how many bodies these cats catch or coke they sell on record, this music has long since lost its ability to shock or scare even lily white 55-year-old investment bankers (half of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout playlist).

At this point we need something to come along that threatens the established guardians of the genre. Not a new-jack to come up and challenge Jay-Z to a battle but some new jacks whose very existence makes folks young and fully realize how irrelevant these Rap Dinosaurs have become.

It needs to be something extreme enough that it brings the 'AND THEY CLAIM THAT IT'S MUSIC!'(c)PE/FearIntro crowd back out of the woodwork.

Something that potentially embarrasses the fence-straddling-old-heads-still-tryin-to-be-down into either getting fully on the bandwagon or hopping off for good. Material uncomfortable enough to confuse some of today's youth who aren't even old enough to remember shit like the Newsweek cover story of 1989 or the FBI Letter to NWA, when this music was actually 'threatening' for reasons beyond their favorite MCs police-blotter appearances.

Something that simplifies shit back to its rawest form like Sucker MCs in 83, Criminal Minded in 86 or even Wu-Tang's debut but not in this day-glo purposely-retro format propogated by groups like The Cool Kids.

Not in the form of some super-lyrical multi-spitting display of verbal wizardry either. That shit has gone as far as it can or needs to go.

Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.

It needs to be stripped of its artifice immediately because much like rock by the early 70s, this music no longer is really anti-establishment. It actually is the establishment.

Maybe the blowback I'm hoping for won't even resemble rap music at all, I don't have any particular sound or image in mind.

I just know I'll know it when I hear it and I know it isn't here yet. I may even hate it when it comes but I'll gladly welcome its arrival because this 'fad' I grew up with has long since devolved into idol-worship and self-parody.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
You say all this yet your a Jay jocker
Jul 01st 2009
1
because I'm not simple-minded enough to limit my musical experience
Jul 01st 2009
3
      As a listener you also know when someone is dailing it in
Jul 01st 2009
4
           let's try not to make this a Jay-Z post shall we? Im fully acknowledging
Jul 01st 2009
5
           Its not gonna come from the music industry which is on its death
Jul 01st 2009
6
           but there's still people making music on a ground-level and channels
Jul 01st 2009
9
           Correction its the music business (model) that's dying.......
Jul 01st 2009
34
           I was typing my post while you posted yours, but I agree 100%
Jul 01st 2009
8
                yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines
Jul 01st 2009
10
                     RE: yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines
Jul 01st 2009
15
                          RE: yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines
Jul 01st 2009
24
                          Bingo you nailed it the "new guard" hasn't distinguished itself yet.
Jul 01st 2009
41
                               RE: Bingo you nailed it the "new guard" hasn't distinguished itself yet.
Jul 01st 2009
43
                                    Believe that I caught a show in ATL last month that also had Shan
Jul 01st 2009
48
                                         RE: Believe that I caught a show in ATL last month that also had Shan
Jul 01st 2009
50
           there is definately a distinction to be made though...
Jul 01st 2009
7
                very well stated
Jul 01st 2009
63
Heads Up!!
Jul 01st 2009
2
I can't see any new form of music knocking out the establishment...
Jul 01st 2009
11
this is where The Doc has gotten to
Jul 01st 2009
14
this is an interesting point
Jul 01st 2009
20
I can't see it right now either but it stands to reason that something
Jul 01st 2009
23
At this point, can we as the listeners really be floored?
Jul 01st 2009
12
I think the powers-that-be have a lot less power than you're giving
Jul 01st 2009
22
Soulja Boy is the answer
Jul 01st 2009
13
we do not need more Soulja Boys, I'm sorry
Jul 01st 2009
16
yes, we need more artists with his attitudes
Jul 01st 2009
17
      I understand your point, and the fact that youre using Soulja Boy
Jul 01st 2009
19
in a way I agree despite thinking his music sucks, although I'd prefer
Jul 01st 2009
21
Problem was, Souljah Boy flamed out after the first album
Jul 01st 2009
25
its better than nothing.
Jul 01st 2009
26
      It might as well be
Jul 01st 2009
30
           yes, i know this. still...its better than nothing.
Jul 01st 2009
37
How was Soulja Boy any diff than say D4L or Dem Franchise Boys?
Jul 01st 2009
32
U can argue that Soulja Boy is representative of whats 2 come
Jul 01st 2009
46
i agreed at first
Jul 01st 2009
59
RE: i agreed at first
Jul 01st 2009
60
maybe i don't give him enough credit
Jul 06th 2009
115
      And how to get your dick in his mouth
Jul 06th 2009
117
Wow at "charts" and "bank" being in your answer
Jul 01st 2009
72
He was only rebelling against the heads though
Jul 01st 2009
74
      and even then, The Doc can't see SB as 'rebelling'
Jul 02nd 2009
97
           that 'Turn My Swag On' joint is certainly a fuck-you to my eardrums
Jul 02nd 2009
98
           "just doing him" is rebellious. all these other cats are caricatures
Jul 06th 2009
116
well said, I agree, it will be interesting to see what happens since
Jul 01st 2009
18
RE: well said, I agree, it will be interesting to see what happens since
Jul 01st 2009
29
this all exists
Jul 01st 2009
27
It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
28
RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
33
      RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
35
           RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
38
                RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
44
                     RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
52
                          RE: It's a complicated issue for me:
Jul 01st 2009
57
Rap fans are either to jaded,or don't give a fuck for this to happen
Jul 01st 2009
31
while I certainly understand the way you feel, I cant resign myself
Jul 01st 2009
36
      I'm only 20, but
Jul 06th 2009
118
RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out
Jul 01st 2009
39
RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out
Jul 01st 2009
40
      RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out
Jul 01st 2009
45
           thanks, I'll check these when I get home from work
Jul 01st 2009
56
           "Automatic Writing" is on Police & Thieves that he put out last year
Jul 01st 2009
70
                Yeah, Police & Thieves is more polished.
Jul 02nd 2009
84
                oops
Jul 02nd 2009
85
it's not going to work in a hip hop context with sample laws as is.
Jul 01st 2009
42
heads up pt 2!
Jul 01st 2009
47
RE: it's not going to work in a hip hop context with sample laws as is.
Jul 01st 2009
54
i imagine a hip hop answer to 'punk' as being ultra minimal
Jul 01st 2009
66
      on some 'reduced by Rick Rubin' shit, I wouldn't mind that
Jul 01st 2009
67
rap is rick ross boss?
Jul 01st 2009
49
yup, with its shirt off and everything
Jul 01st 2009
51
lol thats what i was thinkin
Jul 02nd 2009
92
rap is dead. sorry. its time for something ELSE to knock rap out.
Jul 01st 2009
53
RE: rap is dead. sorry. its time for something ELSE to knock rap out.
Jul 01st 2009
55
*kicks Over Soap Box* Screaming "All Y'all Shut the Fuck Up!"
Jul 01st 2009
58
Chuuuch!!
Jul 01st 2009
61
my man(c)Frank Lucas
Jul 01st 2009
65
tell us where this sound is gonna come from.
Jul 01st 2009
62
if I knew Id be taking time off work to be there while it was happening
Jul 01st 2009
64
i actually think grime was hip hops punk
Jul 01st 2009
68
i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above
Jul 01st 2009
69
      RE: i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above
Jul 01st 2009
71
      RE: i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above
Jul 02nd 2009
87
      punk didn't cross over in america though...
Jul 02nd 2009
86
      punk didn't cross over in america though... are you serious?!
Jul 02nd 2009
88
      I don't think it did really...
Jul 02nd 2009
90
           RE: I don't think it did really...
Jul 02nd 2009
91
      RE: punk didn't cross over in america though...
Jul 02nd 2009
95
           You call that crossing over?
Jul 02nd 2009
99
                ok, I guess from a 'platinum' type of perspective I can see your point
Jul 02nd 2009
100
      well if hip hop already *was* punk then wheres hip hops nirvana?
Jul 02nd 2009
104
           what's nirvana got to do with anything?
Jul 02nd 2009
108
                RE: what's nirvana got to do with anything?
Jul 03rd 2009
109
                     RE: what's nirvana got to do with anything?
Jul 03rd 2009
110
                          i didnt mean black rock as in living colour etc
Jul 03rd 2009
111
                               RE: i didnt mean black rock as in living colour etc
Jul 05th 2009
112
Agreed. Something that will bring hip-hop together (real heads)
Jul 01st 2009
73
*keeps listening to P.O.S.*
Jul 01st 2009
75
It's like people forget that hip-hop exists outside of the radio
Jul 01st 2009
77
      I really dont listen to the radio,what Im talkin bout hasnt happened tho
Jul 01st 2009
79
           I feel like what you're talking about it unnecessary though
Jul 01st 2009
81
                I still have some shit to listen to as well, that ain't the point though
Jul 01st 2009
83
yall are just old (semi-jk) n/m
Jul 01st 2009
76
I wouldn't mind some shit that makes me feel old & that I don't get
Jul 01st 2009
80
if grime was american, it would fit this perfectly
Jul 01st 2009
78
from the sound of Gum's example I can kinda see it, unfortunately
Jul 01st 2009
82
The ''hipster'' faction is the problem...
Jul 02nd 2009
103
yup. hipsters chew up new music and spit it out
Jul 06th 2009
120
this is interesting
Jul 02nd 2009
106
yes yes......but what will it be?!
Jul 02nd 2009
89
2009 has been a pretty good year for hip hop.....
Jul 02nd 2009
93
I'm trying to keep from being long-winded on this
Jul 02nd 2009
94
current society's really so much more individual-driven than Reagan era?
Jul 02nd 2009
96
RE: current society's really so much more individual-driven than Reagan ...
Jul 02nd 2009
107
Co-MFin SIGN
Jul 06th 2009
119
i wanna say janelle monae was that
Jul 02nd 2009
101
dude...
Jul 02nd 2009
102
      a lot of her stuff is way more ordinary sounding than i thought
Jul 02nd 2009
105
RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out
Jul 05th 2009
113
RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out
Jul 05th 2009
114

Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15235 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:09 PM

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1. "You say all this yet your a Jay jocker"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

smh.

He is one of the main contributors of this current situation.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:16 PM

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3. "because I'm not simple-minded enough to limit my musical experience"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

to 'jocking' anybody.

Jay is a great MC. That doesn't mean that what his presence has become isn't something worth rebelling against, just as The Clash did The Beatles or Iggy Pop did with Mick Jagger.

In the end as a listener you can appreciate something while also understanding its need to be destroyed.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15235 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:19 PM

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4. "As a listener you also know when someone is dailing it in"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

and or half assing it so how can you appreciate that?

But I support your original point 100%

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Bombastic
Charter member
88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:28 PM

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5. "let's try not to make this a Jay-Z post shall we? Im fully acknowledging"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

that he's one of the Key Old-Guard Figures who needs to be knocked off in a figurative sense.

I would go see dude in concert more for nostalgia purposes and the professionalism displayed than because I felt the current music he's doing is challenging me as a listener.

I'm not waiting on Jay-Z to give me something new. He does what he does and has to much vested at this point to change that.

The question is when is something new and exciting gonna come behind that? Because people stopped expecting Stevie Wonder or Paul McCartney to be at a focal point of young/hip at around the same length of time. You can respect any and all of their past works while still understanding that their contemporary irrelevance is necessary.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15235 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:37 PM

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6. "Its not gonna come from the music industry which is on its death"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

bed.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Bombastic
Charter member
88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:40 PM

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9. "but there's still people making music on a ground-level and channels"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

to utilize.

Sales are no longer a real barometer but it does need to be something that makes an impact on the public consciousness.

I more interested in what could happen from a purely musical/social perspective than in rehashing a rap-is-dead convo or discussing the carcass of modern-mainstream-music-distribution.

  

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eddietauf
Member since Mar 15th 2004
2095 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 01:56 PM

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34. "Correction its the music business (model) that's dying......."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

_______________________________________


"What's The Relevance Of Money Without Intelligence"

  

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The Analyst
Member since Sep 22nd 2007
4617 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:40 PM

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8. "I was typing my post while you posted yours, but I agree 100%"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

----

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:42 PM

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10. "yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

and I'm trying to avoid making this about Jay but at the same time he was the first name that came to mind in typing up the original post. It's more about what he represents than him at this point.

  

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The Analyst
Member since Sep 22nd 2007
4617 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:55 PM

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15. "RE: yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>and I'm trying to avoid making this about Jay but at the same
>time he was the first name that came to mind in typing up the
>original post. It's more about what he represents than him at
>this point.

There is no denying that he and many of his contemporaries are the "old guard" so to speak. The problem that you're addressing is that there is essentially no "new guard" yet...

But how can anyone expect the stars from 15 years ago to still carry this shit and be relevent?

Its really rare that somebody can be at the forefront of importance to his genre for multiple generations. One of the only people I can think of off top is Herbie Hancock because he drastically reivented himself multiple times. In the vast majority of cases though people either a)fall off b)become a self parody or c) become irrelevent because someone new renders them irrelevent.

The only thing I can say is that when something new comes, we probably won't see it coming.

----

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 01:17 PM

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24. "RE: yeah, from reading #7 I can see you're thinking along the same lines"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>>and I'm trying to avoid making this about Jay but at the
>same
>>time he was the first name that came to mind in typing up
>the
>>original post. It's more about what he represents than him
>at
>>this point.
>
>There is no denying that he and many of his contemporaries are
>the "old guard" so to speak. The problem that you're
>addressing is that there is essentially no "new guard" yet...
>
>But how can anyone expect the stars from 15 years ago to still
>carry this shit and be relevent?
>
>Its really rare that somebody can be at the forefront of
>importance to his genre for multiple generations. One of the
>only people I can think of off top is Herbie Hancock because
>he drastically reivented himself multiple times. In the vast
>majority of cases though people either a)fall off b)become a
>self parody or c) become irrelevent because someone new
>renders them irrelevent.
>
True, Herbie also was lucky enough to never really become omnipresent either. Once you get to a certain level of ubiquity, your demise becomes necessary. I can't really say Herbie ever even really approached that plane.

>The only thing I can say is that when something new comes, we
>probably won't see it coming.
>
>

  

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eddietauf
Member since Mar 15th 2004
2095 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:16 PM

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41. "Bingo you nailed it the "new guard" hasn't distinguished itself yet."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>There is no denying that he and many of his contemporaries are
>the "old guard" so to speak. The problem that you're
>addressing is that there is essentially no "new guard" yet...
>
>But how can anyone expect the stars from 15 years ago to still
>carry this shit and be relevent?
>


In deed, when you look at it even cats like Jay Z, Mos Def, Nas et al have been out recording for over 15 years (or nearly that). Its like what KRS-One said on his epic "I'm Still #1" -- 15 years down the line we'll be the old school artists. Therefore at this point there a generation of listeners that look upon the aforementioned in the same way some may look upon KRS, Dougie Fresh, BDK, Rakim et al of another era before their time.



>which makes Its really rare that somebody can be at the forefront of
>importance to his genre for multiple generations.
>One of the only people I can think of off top is Herbie Hancock because he drastically reivented himself multiple times. In the vast
>majority of cases though people either a)fall off b)become a
>self parody or c) become irrelevent because someone new
>renders them irrelevent.

True indeed basically the point as I take it is no matter the genre at some point the audience turns over to the point where your music doesn't speak to them any more on their level. Rarely can an artist transend and maintain relavence with a generation of listeners other than those who sparked his/her fame.


From a hip hop frame of reference KRS is the only one I know that truly can still rock a crowd like he did in his "heyday". And he's done it across 3 decades (80's, 90's, 2000's). Although his albums in the last 2-3 years haven't quite had the same punch as some of his early 2000's work.

_______________________________________


"What's The Relevance Of Money Without Intelligence"

  

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Bombastic
Charter member
88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:22 PM

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43. "RE: Bingo you nailed it the "new guard" hasn't distinguished itself yet."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>>There is no denying that he and many of his contemporaries
>are
>>the "old guard" so to speak. The problem that you're
>>addressing is that there is essentially no "new guard"
>yet...
>>
>>But how can anyone expect the stars from 15 years ago to
>still
>>carry this shit and be relevent?
>>
>
>
>In deed, when you look at it even cats like Jay Z, Mos Def,
>Nas et al have been out recording for over 15 years (or nearly
>that). Its like what KRS-One said on his epic "I'm Still #1"
>-- 15 years down the line we'll be the old school artists.
>Therefore at this point there a generation of listeners that
>look upon the aforementioned in the same way some may look
>upon KRS, Dougie Fresh, BDK, Rakim et al of another era before
>their time.
>
>
>
>>which makes Its really rare that somebody can be at the
>forefront of
>>importance to his genre for multiple generations.
>>One of the only people I can think of off top is Herbie
>Hancock because he drastically reivented himself multiple
>times. In the vast
>>majority of cases though people either a)fall off b)become a
>>self parody or c) become irrelevent because someone new
>>renders them irrelevent.
>
>True indeed basically the point as I take it is no matter the
>genre at some point the audience turns over to the point where
>your music doesn't speak to them any more on their level.
>Rarely can an artist transend and maintain relavence with a
>generation of listeners other than those who sparked his/her
>fame.
>
>
>From a hip hop frame of reference KRS is the only one I know
>that truly can still rock a crowd like he did in his "heyday".
>And he's done it across 3 decades (80's, 90's, 2000's).
>Although his albums in the last 2-3 years haven't quite had
>the same punch as some of his early 2000's work.
>
>
To me KRS' albums pretty much fell off a the point he broke with Jive. The productions feel low-budget and the hooks forced. He can still body a track (That's Not Hot, My Life, I Come Back, the Ridah Freestyle) but as for full album work since that point its been spotty.

But I highly respect the fact that he stays true to himself and never reduces himself to a nostalgia act. He really will be ripping a microphone until he's mothafuckin sixty.

  

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eddietauf
Member since Mar 15th 2004
2095 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:29 PM

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48. "Believe that I caught a show in ATL last month that also had Shan"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

on the bill and the difference between them in terms of the on-stage and off-stage given back to them by the crowd was night and day.


And they both from the same era. In the immortal words of Guru, "If you ain't got it, you ain't got it."

_______________________________________


"What's The Relevance Of Money Without Intelligence"

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:52 PM

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50. "RE: Believe that I caught a show in ATL last month that also had Shan"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>on the bill and the difference between them in terms of the
>on-stage and off-stage given back to them by the crowd was
>night and day.
>
>
>And they both from the same era. In the immortal words of
>Guru, "If you ain't got it, you ain't got it."
>
>
yeah, like I had mentioned awhile ago in a post about Slick Rick & Dougie.....those guys are basically a traveling museum exhibit, right down to the Kangols and Ballys.

  

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The Analyst
Member since Sep 22nd 2007
4617 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:38 PM

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7. "there is definately a distinction to be made though..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

The example Bombastic used for 70s rock is perfect though. The Beatles and The Stones first came out and smashed the establishment, but in doing so eventually became the establishment. that doesn't make them worse, it just means that the next generation is going to come along and want to smash them. And they will. It always happens.

In other words, I have an affinity for alot of McCarntey's 80s 90s and 00s material. I'll argue with anybody that alot of it is still musically more adventerous than most of what's out there. That being said, none of that music was VITAL. It had ceased being cutting edge long ago. It had been, essentially, shattered when the new breed came out and destroyed it.

So its very easy to recognize that Jay-Z is starting to move into that category. Its not easy to recognize right now because we're witnessing it in real time, but when history looks back, they will see that Jay continued to put out quality (if slightly diminished)material and retain his fanbase, but that he was no longer the top dog (because nobody in the history of music has remained the top dog in his respective genre for long). I predict his trajectory will take him on the same path as most of the huge stars from the classic rock era: similar to Dylan, the Stones, Springsteen, Stevie; he will continue to release critically well-received material that his fans will like but will be largely ignored by the next generation of audience and will still sell out tours and whatnot everytime he comes around.

----

  

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steg1
Charter member
3334 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 03:42 PM

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63. "very well stated"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

co-sine

www.jambase.com ~~~Go See Live Music~~~
www.upfulLIFE.com / www.facebook.com/UPFULLife

"...shocked the small axe could knocka giant lopsided" (c)Pretty Flaco

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Wed Jul-01-09 12:14 PM

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2. "Heads Up!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to
>its basest elements.
>
>No matter how many bodies these cats catch or coke they sell
>on record, this music has long since lost its ability to shock
>or scare even lily white 55-year-old investment bankers (half
>of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout
>playlist).
>
>At this point we need something to come along that threatens
>the established guardians of the genre. Not a new-jack to come
>up and challenge Jay-Z to a battle but some new jacks whose
>very existence makes folks young and fully realize how
>irrelevant these Rap Dinosaurs have become.
>
>It needs to be something extreme enough that it brings the
>'AND THEY CLAIM THAT IT'S MUSIC!'(c)PE/FearIntro crowd back
>out of the woodwork.
>
>Something that potentially embarrasses the
>fence-straddling-old-heads-still-tryin-to-be-down into either
>getting fully on the bandwagon or hopping off for good.
>Material uncomfortable enough to confuse some of today's youth
>who aren't even old enough to remember shit like the Newsweek
>cover story of 1989 or the FBI Letter to NWA, when this music
>was actually 'threatening' for reasons beyond their favorite
>MCs police-blotter appearances.
>
>Something that simplifies shit back to its rawest form like
>Sucker MCs in 83, Criminal Minded in 86 or even Wu-Tang's
>debut but not in this day-glo purposely-retro format
>propogated by groups like The Cool Kids.
>
>Not in the form of some super-lyrical multi-spitting display
>of verbal wizardry either. That shit has gone as far as it can
>or needs to go.
>
>Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in
>the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.
>
>It needs to be stripped of its artifice immediately because
>much like rock by the early 70s, this music no longer is
>really anti-establishment. It actually is the establishment.
>
>Maybe the blowback I'm hoping for won't even resemble rap
>music at all, I don't have any particular sound or image in
>mind.
>
>I just know I'll know it when I hear it and I know it isn't
>here yet. I may even hate it when it comes but I'll gladly
>welcome its arrival because this 'fad' I grew up with has long
>since devolved into idol-worship and self-parody.
>
>


________
<- Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
AvantUrb - http://avanturb.com

Bringing this level of insight every post - http://is.gd/1i9M6

I Never...(RIP MJ) http://drop.io/inever4mj/

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9762 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 12:49 PM

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11. "I can't see any new form of music knocking out the establishment..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Shit will be overhyped on hipster-blogs worldwide and pitchfork within a couple of months and a while later, it will be so played out and tired that "noone" will give a fuck about any of the new artists except the ones that became part of the establishment...

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Wed Jul-01-09 12:53 PM

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14. "this is where The Doc has gotten to"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>Shit will be overhyped on hipster-blogs worldwide and
>pitchfork within a couple of months and a while later, it will
>be so played out and tired that "noone" will give a fuck about
>any of the new artists except the ones that became part of the
>establishment...

he was of the mind of Bomb... Rap music needs a populist rebellion
but then he looks at its most recent stars, and some of them (like Jeezy, Gucci, et al) actually ARE of the "common dude" (drug/gun talk aside)

but now...what you just said makes exact sense.

  

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Matinho
Member since Sep 02nd 2006
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:09 PM

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20. "this is an interesting point"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

______

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:15 PM

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23. "I can't see it right now either but it stands to reason that something"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

can and will happen, because rap and popular music itself as currently constructed will not be able to continue in this fashion ad infinitum.

History bears that out.

  

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DJPrimetime
Member since Feb 06th 2003
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Wed Jul-01-09 12:52 PM

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12. "At this point, can we as the listeners really be floored?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This conversation goes on here weekly, if not daily. Jay-Z has too much invested to really "go in". He had his chance with the Black Album and blew it. Even on this DOA, he didn't go and call out people.

The corporate suits will not let in an MC or group that SCARES the status quo. They have too much control. They have figured out a way to make it what they want it to be and have made every single person in radio an interchangeable part. The people picking the music will not stick their neck out because they know they will come back beheaded.

So my question is, will the powers that be let this happen? There are too many people with money invested in the super bullshit to kill their own enterprise.

http://djprimetime.tripod.com
http://www.myspace.com/theformularadioshow

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:13 PM

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22. "I think the powers-that-be have a lot less power than you're giving"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

them credit for.

This doesn't need to be a platinum artist who goes through the mainstream channels, it just needs to be a true musical movement (not this bullshit rappers call a movement plugging their vanity-label-offshoots) that builds from a ground level into a roar that can be heard above the din that ends up having a long-lasting disruptive impact.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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Wed Jul-01-09 12:53 PM

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13. "Soulja Boy is the answer"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-01-09 12:54 PM by jambone

  

          

thats the best we have gotten since 50 Cent's debut.

the kid, Soulja Boy came with his own style, beats, and business. and he really didn't give a f*ck about what people thought and laughed his way to the charts and the bank.

and everybody hated on the lil dude, from fans to rappers in general.


the rap game is begging for somebody to come take it over or at least breathe new life into it. begging.

and no, mixtape guys like Wale and Drake are NOT the answer.

we need more Soulja Boys, come with the hits and albums and the i don't give a f*ck attitude. thats rap.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Matinho
Member since Sep 02nd 2006
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:03 PM

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16. "we do not need more Soulja Boys, I'm sorry"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

______

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:05 PM

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17. "yes, we need more artists with his attitudes"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

everybody else conforms.

he is the closest thing, relatively speaking, to a rebel the rap game had.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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Matinho
Member since Sep 02nd 2006
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:08 PM

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19. "I understand your point, and the fact that youre using Soulja Boy"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

as an example should say all that needs to be said about the current state of rap

______

  

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Bombastic
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21. "in a way I agree despite thinking his music sucks, although I'd prefer"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

if it was someone who could actually end up with a real career long-enough to be knocked off the perch themself someday rather than flame out after a hit or two.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:18 PM

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25. "Problem was, Souljah Boy flamed out after the first album"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

As in, his second album bricked hard. He had no staying power.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:19 PM

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26. "its better than nothing."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

<--- we've got bush!

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:41 PM

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30. "It might as well be"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

The OP used artists like the Sex Pistols and the Stooges. Thirty or forty years later, we're still talking about those bands, even if the former lacked any real musical talent.

10 yeats from now, nobody is going to remember who Souljah Boy is.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:10 PM

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37. "yes, i know this. still...its better than nothing."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

nobody else is doing anything.

not even 1-2 years of 15 minute fame.

<--- we've got bush!

  

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daskap
Member since Oct 17th 2003
6924 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 01:46 PM

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32. "How was Soulja Boy any diff than say D4L or Dem Franchise Boys?"
In response to Reply # 13


          

his shit is dance orientated/ringtone rap just like them

  

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eddietauf
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:26 PM

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46. "U can argue that Soulja Boy is representative of whats 2 come"
In response to Reply # 13
Wed Jul-01-09 02:31 PM by eddietauf

  

          

>the kid, Soulja Boy came with his own style, beats, and
>business. and he really didn't give a f*ck about what people
>thought and laughed his way to the charts and the bank.

No question on that point sir. Love him or hate his commerical accomplishments speak for themselves. Dude is caked up considering. He did something right.

>and no, mixtape guys like Wale and Drake are NOT the answer.
>

Reason being IMHO is they're missing some of the point it's about the stage & the you-tube video in this new era. Not about holding out for the record deal cause the major label debut aint necessarily going to get you over.


>we need more Soulja Boys, come with the hits and albums and
>the i don't give a f*ck attitude. thats rap.
>
>

Its coming, Its coming.....

_______________________________________


"What's The Relevance Of Money Without Intelligence"

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 03:20 PM

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59. "i agreed at first"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

but within months he became the establishment. the DIY moron beats and raps became the norm. what was punk about soulja boy was adopted by the mainstream. anyway, his singalongs aren't scaring anybody. there needs to be music with real edge that puts the fear back into most listeners and breaks up the stale monotony in hip-hop.

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 03:23 PM

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60. "RE: i agreed at first"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>but within months he became the establishment. the DIY moron
>beats and raps became the norm. what was punk about soulja boy
>was adopted by the mainstream. anyway, his singalongs aren't
>scaring anybody. there needs to be music with real edge that
>puts the fear back into most listeners and breaks up the stale
>monotony in hip-hop.

this is kinda true, Solja Boy was about as upsetting to the status quo as Right Said Fred.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Mon Jul-06-09 10:54 AM

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115. "maybe i don't give him enough credit"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

http://therapup.uproxx.com/2009/07/soulja-boy-threatens-to-quit.html
How to Get the Man's Foot Outta Your Ass

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
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Mon Jul-06-09 11:16 AM

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117. "And how to get your dick in his mouth"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          


Date Posted: 8:55am Subject: Soulja Boy, Tell 'Em (Why You Mad, Son) / No More Soulja Boy?
Apparently, the crackers are ok sometimes:

http://therapup.uproxx.com/2008/10/soulja-boy-salutes-the-slave-masters.html


“Oh wait! Hold up! Shout out to the slave masters! Without them we’d still be in Africa. We wouldn’t be here to get this ice and tattoos.”

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

NBA 2K9 on PSN: Nodima

  

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RaFromQueens
Member since Apr 18th 2006
19528 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 06:49 PM

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72. "Wow at "charts" and "bank" being in your answer"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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simpsycho
Member since May 29th 2007
8056 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 07:07 PM

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74. "He was only rebelling against the heads though"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

His music conformed to what is popular and mainstream.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Thu Jul-02-09 11:46 AM

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97. "and even then, The Doc can't see SB as 'rebelling'"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

he was just doing him.
His rise to the top of the charts was what was atypical.
But the style of his music didn't grab The Doc as a "Fuck You"

  

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Bombastic
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98. "that 'Turn My Swag On' joint is certainly a fuck-you to my eardrums"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

.

  

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jambone
Member since Aug 08th 2005
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Mon Jul-06-09 10:56 AM

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116. ""just doing him" is rebellious. all these other cats are caricatures"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

following trends.

  

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Matinho
Member since Sep 02nd 2006
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:07 PM

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18. "well said, I agree, it will be interesting to see what happens since"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the music industry as a whole is totally different now than it has ever been


I was talking to my boy about this the other night - Rap is actually depressing right now when you get to thinking about it

______

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:40 PM

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29. "RE: well said, I agree, it will be interesting to see what happens since"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>the music industry as a whole is totally different now than
>it has ever been
>
>
>I was talking to my boy about this the other night - Rap is
>actually depressing right now when you get to thinking about
>it

My ride is temporarily in the shop until Friday, this post was inspired by a combination of being on LA public transportation this morning reading through the latest mind-numbing issue of XXL and then reading a few pages of Lester Bangs' 'Psychotic Reactions & Carborator Dung' collection immediately after.

I'm still not sure I've fully articulated anything yet but I wanted to get it out there and see what other folks could come up with.

  

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haji rana pinya
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:25 PM

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27. "this all exists"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*********************
www.dumhi.com

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:37 PM

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28. "It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

1. So far, my hip-hop favorite albums of 2009 have been made by artists that have been releasing albums for almost 10 years, in some cases almost 20 years. Looking over my 10 hip-hop favorite albums of 2008, I'd say about half of them were made by artists that have been around a while. And these are all albums that are genuinely dope to me, not on some "Oh, they're good during a watered down year" shit. So I personally feel no urgency that hip-hop needs the proverbial boot in the ass; it's all gravy from my personal listening experience.

2. As Buildingblock must recently said in a post (but he wasn't the first), there's a severe lack of MCs under 30 that burst onto the scene trying to shake things up. Yeah, the kids love them some Drake, and he's got skills, but he's not really making music that's radically different than anything that's already out there.

3. I don't think there's the infrastructure even around anymore for the young and up comers to burst in on some the scene with a new sound to shake things up. Fifteen to 20 years ago, a major label would take a chance on a group like Cypress Hill or Wu-Tang Clan (both groups had members who had released music before, but no established commercial success). These days, you have to create music that fits into a pre-established box before a major label shows you some money.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:46 PM

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33. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>1. So far, my hip-hop favorite albums of 2009 have been made
>by artists that have been releasing albums for almost 10
>years, in some cases almost 20 years. Looking over my 10
>hip-hop favorite albums of 2008, I'd say about half of them
>were made by artists that have been around a while. And these
>are all albums that are genuinely dope to me, not on some "Oh,
>they're good during a watered down year" shit. So I personally
>feel no urgency that hip-hop needs the proverbial boot in the
>ass; it's all gravy from my personal listening experience.
>
I mean I love Born Like This. My favorite rap album from 2008 is The Renaissance. I ain't saying we need to start putting out age limits on anything.

>2. As Buildingblock must recently said in a post (but he
>wasn't the first), there's a severe lack of MCs under 30 that
>burst onto the scene trying to shake things up. Yeah, the kids
>love them some Drake, and he's got skills, but he's not really
>making music that's radically different than anything that's
>already out there.
>
Holy shit is Drake boring. So is Cudi. So, to some degree, is Lupe. I like Wale's flow/energy a little bit but not enough to generate a real reaction like others have led me to in the past. This isn't some cranky-old-man steez either. I wish these rappers at least generated enough for me to hate on them if nothing else. Instead it's indifference.

>3. I don't think there's the infrastructure even around
>anymore for the young and up comers to burst in on some the
>scene with a new sound to shake things up. Fifteen to 20 years
>ago, a major label would take a chance on a group like Cypress
>Hill or Wu-Tang Clan (both groups had members who had released
>music before, but no established commercial success). These
>days, you have to create music that fits into a
>pre-established box before a major label shows you some
>money.

eh, you move enough units independently (which a genuine ground-up version of turning-the-genre-on-its-head could do) and then a major can bankroll it later.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:58 PM

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35. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


>I mean I love Born Like This. My favorite rap album from 2008
>is The Renaissance. I ain't saying we need to start putting
>out age limits on anything.

I feel you and I know that's not what you wre implying.

>Holy shit is Drake boring. So is Cudi. So, to some degree, is
>Lupe. I like Wale's flow/energy a little bit but not enough to
>generate a real reaction like others have led me to in the
>past. This isn't some cranky-old-man steez either. I wish
>these rappers at least generated enough for me to hate on them
>if nothing else. Instead it's indifference.

Drake I can live with (but I doubt I'd buy his album or anything(. Co-sign on Cudi (and Asher Roth). And I find Lupe EXTREMELY boring. Wale can be cool, but after seeing him in concert, my opinion of him lowered a bit (not dynamic or interesting at all). I root like a mutha for dudes like MURS to blow up on a major label, but he hasn't done it and I don't know how many more shots he'll get to do it. Of the new young guns, there's only one I see that typifies the "back to basics" approach you espoused in the o.g. post, and I know you don't really like the guys music.

>eh, you move enough units independently (which a genuine
>ground-up version of turning-the-genre-on-its-head could do)
>and then a major can bankroll it later.

But, yeah, look at the guys who are blowing up independently. Like Drake, they're offer up pretty much the same fare that everyone else offers up. Like everything else, hip-hop's future is artist's catering to the niche market: finding they're established and loyal audience and catering to it.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:11 PM

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38. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 35
Wed Jul-01-09 02:12 PM by Bombastic

  

          

>
>>I mean I love Born Like This. My favorite rap album from
>2008
>>is The Renaissance. I ain't saying we need to start putting
>>out age limits on anything.
>
>I feel you and I know that's not what you wre implying.
>
>>Holy shit is Drake boring. So is Cudi. So, to some degree,
>is
>>Lupe. I like Wale's flow/energy a little bit but not enough
>to
>>generate a real reaction like others have led me to in the
>>past. This isn't some cranky-old-man steez either. I wish
>>these rappers at least generated enough for me to hate on
>them
>>if nothing else. Instead it's indifference.
>
>Drake I can live with (but I doubt I'd buy his album or
>anything(. Co-sign on Cudi (and Asher Roth). And I find Lupe
>EXTREMELY boring. Wale can be cool, but after seeing him in
>concert, my opinion of him lowered a bit (not dynamic or
>interesting at all). I root like a mutha for dudes like MURS
>to blow up on a major label, but he hasn't done it and I don't
>know how many more shots he'll get to do it. Of the new young
>guns, there's only one I see that typifies the "back to
>basics" approach you espoused in the o.g. post, and I know you
>don't really like the guys music.
>
which guy is it? maybe I'm out of it but it's not occurring to me right now.

edit: wait a minute, are you talking about Blu?

>>eh, you move enough units independently (which a genuine
>>ground-up version of turning-the-genre-on-its-head could do)
>>and then a major can bankroll it later.
>
>But, yeah, look at the guys who are blowing up independently.
>Like Drake, they're offer up pretty much the same fare that
>everyone else offers up. Like everything else, hip-hop's
>future is artist's catering to the niche market: finding
>they're established and loyal audience and catering to it.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
42215 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:23 PM

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44. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          


>which guy is it? maybe I'm out of it but it's not occurring to
>me right now.
>
>edit: wait a minute, are you talking about Blu?

Give the man a prize!

Okay, I'm not saying he'll be a platinum artist, but I at least like his approach to the back to basics steez. And I personally don't find him boring. I think if a label worked with him to develop the right stratedgy, he could make some noise.

I figure you disagree though...

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:56 PM

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52. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

>
>>which guy is it? maybe I'm out of it but it's not occurring
>to
>>me right now.
>>
>>edit: wait a minute, are you talking about Blu?
>
>Give the man a prize!
>
>Okay, I'm not saying he'll be a platinum artist, but I at
>least like his approach to the back to basics steez. And I
>personally don't find him boring. I think if a label worked
>with him to develop the right stratedgy, he could make some
>noise.
>
>I figure you disagree though...

LOL, a lightbulb went off right as I hit 'post message'.

He's pretty good, just not the flashpoint I'm looking for.....but I have less interest in rehashing the Below The Heavens discussion as I do a Jay/Nas debate in this thread.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-01-09 03:05 PM

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57. "RE: It's a complicated issue for me:"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          


>He's pretty good, just not the flashpoint I'm looking
>for.....but I have less interest in rehashing the Below The
>Heavens discussion as I do a Jay/Nas debate in this thread.

Yeah, both are about my least favorite rehashed discussions on this board. Jay-Z/Nas fighting is the absolute WORST by a mile.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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HotepSuns365
Member since Jun 27th 2008
4234 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 01:45 PM

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31. "Rap fans are either to jaded,or don't give a fuck for this to happen"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Maybe it's the information age,and how nothing really has any mystery behind it anymore (which i thought was a HUGE element to michael's success)...or maybe it's the fact that so many have been let down by all types of things that seemed brash,and left field...but what i see from most people who listen to rap is a jaded feel to it...which is why so many cling to sounds from the past...or just want to hear something to dance too.....



the actual ability to knock anyone off their feet musically seems almost impossible at this point...especially with how the world seemingly has no morals,or code anymore,and will say,or do anything literally on an everyday basis,and it get's posted on the internet for everyone to consume.....so much of the freshness of hip hop in the beginning was the fact that most ignored the culture..so when it was put into music form it caught everyone off guard,because it was no longer sugar coating it,but bringing harsh realities to the light...and like everything else in this world that became a commodity


which leads to my ultimate point....is that most just won't take anything like that serious,because they will just claim it's for money,or shock value...most of the people in here agreeing with you would probably be the first ones to write an artist off who attempted this as just another shock rapper....


basically we live in a world that's moving a million miles an hour,as soon as you tackle one thing,the next day the world has moved on to something else....we no longer have movements,we just have moments..

We are not stuck in this state of lower classes because of fascist..it's because we talk all day like cassius while perpetuating our own madness

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 01:59 PM

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36. "while I certainly understand the way you feel, I cant resign myself"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

to that just yet.

Not because of some eternal optimism but just because history pretty much necessitates it.

It might take an entirely new genre of music that has nothing to do with rap but something will come. Who of our parents who grew up on rock & soul could have anticipated the rap music we grow up with?

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
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Mon Jul-06-09 11:21 AM

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118. "I'm only 20, but"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

when it comes to culture, or lack thereof, it seems the internet has done unimaginable things to the dissemination and understanding of these things. being a part of something is simultaneously much easier and much harder than it was before. I'm not sure history necessitates anything anymore.


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

NBA 2K9 on PSN: Nodima

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:11 PM

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39. "RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to
>its basest elements.
>
>No matter how many bodies these cats catch or coke they sell
>on record, this music has long since lost its ability to shock
>or scare even lily white 55-year-old investment bankers (half
>of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout
>playlist).
>
>At this point we need something to come along that threatens
>the established guardians of the genre. Not a new-jack to come
>up and challenge Jay-Z to a battle but some new jacks whose
>very existence makes folks young and fully realize how
>irrelevant these Rap Dinosaurs have become.
>
>It needs to be something extreme enough that it brings the
>'AND THEY CLAIM THAT IT'S MUSIC!'(c)PE/FearIntro crowd back
>out of the woodwork.
>
>Something that potentially embarrasses the
>fence-straddling-old-heads-still-tryin-to-be-down into either
>getting fully on the bandwagon or hopping off for good.
>Material uncomfortable enough to confuse some of today's youth
>who aren't even old enough to remember shit like the Newsweek
>cover story of 1989 or the FBI Letter to NWA, when this music
>was actually 'threatening' for reasons beyond their favorite
>MCs police-blotter appearances.
>
>Something that simplifies shit back to its rawest form like
>Sucker MCs in 83, Criminal Minded in 86 or even Wu-Tang's
>debut but not in this day-glo purposely-retro format
>propogated by groups like The Cool Kids.
>
>Not in the form of some super-lyrical multi-spitting display
>of verbal wizardry either. That shit has gone as far as it can
>or needs to go.
>
>Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in
>the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.
>
>It needs to be stripped of its artifice immediately because
>much like rock by the early 70s, this music no longer is
>really anti-establishment. It actually is the establishment.
>
>Maybe the blowback I'm hoping for won't even resemble rap
>music at all, I don't have any particular sound or image in
>mind.
>
>I just know I'll know it when I hear it and I know it isn't
>here yet. I may even hate it when it comes but I'll gladly
>welcome its arrival because this 'fad' I grew up with has long
>since devolved into idol-worship and self-parody.



elucid. like, if you can't hear the anger, aggression, paranoia, and intensity in his songs, i don't know what the fuck to tell you.

btw, i agree w/ your rant. *saves to the personal archives*

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:14 PM

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40. "RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>>Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to
>>its basest elements.
>>
>>No matter how many bodies these cats catch or coke they sell
>>on record, this music has long since lost its ability to
>shock
>>or scare even lily white 55-year-old investment bankers
>(half
>>of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout
>>playlist).
>>
>>At this point we need something to come along that threatens
>>the established guardians of the genre. Not a new-jack to
>come
>>up and challenge Jay-Z to a battle but some new jacks whose
>>very existence makes folks young and fully realize how
>>irrelevant these Rap Dinosaurs have become.
>>
>>It needs to be something extreme enough that it brings the
>>'AND THEY CLAIM THAT IT'S MUSIC!'(c)PE/FearIntro crowd back
>>out of the woodwork.
>>
>>Something that potentially embarrasses the
>>fence-straddling-old-heads-still-tryin-to-be-down into
>either
>>getting fully on the bandwagon or hopping off for good.
>>Material uncomfortable enough to confuse some of today's
>youth
>>who aren't even old enough to remember shit like the
>Newsweek
>>cover story of 1989 or the FBI Letter to NWA, when this
>music
>>was actually 'threatening' for reasons beyond their favorite
>>MCs police-blotter appearances.
>>
>>Something that simplifies shit back to its rawest form like
>>Sucker MCs in 83, Criminal Minded in 86 or even Wu-Tang's
>>debut but not in this day-glo purposely-retro format
>>propogated by groups like The Cool Kids.
>>
>>Not in the form of some super-lyrical multi-spitting display
>>of verbal wizardry either. That shit has gone as far as it
>can
>>or needs to go.
>>
>>Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in
>>the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.
>>
>>It needs to be stripped of its artifice immediately because
>>much like rock by the early 70s, this music no longer is
>>really anti-establishment. It actually is the establishment.
>>
>>Maybe the blowback I'm hoping for won't even resemble rap
>>music at all, I don't have any particular sound or image in
>>mind.
>>
>>I just know I'll know it when I hear it and I know it isn't
>>here yet. I may even hate it when it comes but I'll gladly
>>welcome its arrival because this 'fad' I grew up with has
>long
>>since devolved into idol-worship and self-parody.
>
>
>
>elucid. like, if you can't hear the anger, aggression,
>paranoia, and intensity in his songs, i don't know what the
>fuck to tell you.
>
*cops to being unfamiliar with artist cited*

anything you would point to specifically?

>btw, i agree w/ your rant. *saves to the personal archives*

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:24 PM

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45. "RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>anything you would point to specifically?

new song: http://freehiphopnow.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-maor-is-billionare-eulcid-explicit.html

most popular full-length project: http://www.rappersiknow.com/2007/08/23/elucid-smash-grab-mixtape/

all free.

on page 1 or 2 there's also a topic for his new video (http://vimeo.com/5321693 - "automatic writing" prod. aeon), but i haven't seen it or heard the song yet.

  

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Bombastic
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56. "thanks, I'll check these when I get home from work"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>>anything you would point to specifically?
>
>new song:
>http://freehiphopnow.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-maor-is-billionare-eulcid-explicit.html
>
>most popular full-length project:
>http://www.rappersiknow.com/2007/08/23/elucid-smash-grab-mixtape/
>
>all free.
>
>on page 1 or 2 there's also a topic for his new video
>(http://vimeo.com/5321693 - "automatic writing" prod. aeon),
>but i haven't seen it or heard the song yet.

  

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daskap
Member since Oct 17th 2003
6924 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 06:19 PM

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70. ""Automatic Writing" is on Police & Thieves that he put out last year"
In response to Reply # 45


          

if you liked Smash & Grab you should like Police & Thieves as well, its put together in the same fashion

  

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Coatesvillain
Member since Aug 24th 2005
7290 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 07:18 AM

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84. "Yeah, Police & Thieves is more polished."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

I love that shit.

-------
"Andy justifies my hate."
http://www.twitter.com/coatesvillain
http://coates.tumblr.com

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 07:42 AM

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85. "oops"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

i just assumed since a new video was made that it was on the full-length that he's still working on. i didn't get a chance to check it out last night, and the title didn't ring a bell.

  

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lonesome_d
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:22 PM

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42. "it's not going to work in a hip hop context with sample laws as is."
In response to Reply # 0


          

caveat: I'm not the best pick to say this simply b/c I lack the in depth background with both punk and hip hop. But this is the first thing that occurred to me and near as I could tell noone's brought it up yet.

>Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to
>its basest elements.

>of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout
>playlist).

lmao at 'i poo'd'


>Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in
>the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.

to take the comparison seriously, what did punk do? The way I see it, it took away the increasing emphasis on instrumental wizardry, all the proggy and arena influences, and back on fun, solid pop songs played fast and loud.

Then: what would be the hip hop equivalent of three chord pop songs played loud & fuzzy?

I don't know, but my first thought is that it would involve a return to loops & big crunchy beats. A return to 2 turntables.

Most of you might come up with a different interpretation of what it would mean, I dunno. But if I'm at all close, it'd have to be a completely underground thing, which means it'll never be what you're looking for.


On the other hand, it's hard for me to imagine where pop music can go that it hasn't already... it's hard for me to imagine what pop music 'moving forward' might mean. Who knows... maybe throat singing will be the next autotune? Genre name: Dub Steppe.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42073 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:29 PM

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47. "heads up pt 2!"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>Then: what would be the hip hop equivalent of three chord pop
>songs played loud & fuzzy?
>
>I don't know, but my first thought is that it would involve a
>return to loops & big crunchy beats. A return to 2
>turntables.

I don't think there needs to be a throwback though. That won't do it. It's taking the aesthetic and applying it to the tools currently available. Not trying to emulate the past using modern techniques. Acknowledge sure, but emulate no.

Aesthetically though I think its very important. The hyperbolized self absorption with a general fuck you while doing that which is a technical if not musical step from the foundations which have already been laid.

________
<- Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
AvantUrb - http://avanturb.com

Bringing this level of insight every post - http://is.gd/1i9M6

I Never...(RIP MJ) http://drop.io/inever4mj/

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:59 PM

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54. "RE: it's not going to work in a hip hop context with sample laws as is."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>caveat: I'm not the best pick to say this simply b/c I lack
>the in depth background with both punk and hip hop. But this
>is the first thing that occurred to me and near as I could
>tell noone's brought it up yet.
>
the sampling issue is actually a good point, since the cut-and-pastiche format is part of what made the late 80s/1990-or-so period interesting.

But then again 36 Chambers was I think post-Biz/O'Sullivan. And even some stuff like early 3-6 Mafia with its minimalist/haunting beats had a chance at it. Problem is they're borderline irredeemable lyrically and then that style got kind of co-opted and watered down.

>>Something needs to come along and reduce this shit back to
>>its basest elements.
>
>>of whom probably have a TI joint on their ipood workout
>>playlist).
>
>lmao at 'i poo'd'
>
ha, that wasn't even intentional but works.
>
>>Rap is long overdue for a watershed 'punk rock' reaction in
>>the vein of the Stooges or Ramones first two records.
>
>to take the comparison seriously, what did punk do? The way I
>see it, it took away the increasing emphasis on instrumental
>wizardry, all the proggy and arena influences, and back on
>fun, solid pop songs played fast and loud.
>
>Then: what would be the hip hop equivalent of three chord pop
>songs played loud & fuzzy?
>
>I don't know, but my first thought is that it would involve a
>return to loops & big crunchy beats. A return to 2
>turntables.
>
>Most of you might come up with a different interpretation of
>what it would mean, I dunno. But if I'm at all close, it'd
>have to be a completely underground thing, which means it'll
>never be what you're looking for.
>
>
>On the other hand, it's hard for me to imagine where pop music
>can go that it hasn't already...
me too but it's gotta go somewhere, right?

it's hard for me to imagine
>what pop music 'moving forward' might mean. Who knows... maybe
>throat singing will be the next autotune? Genre name: Dub
>Steppe.

  

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GumDrops
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Wed Jul-01-09 05:49 PM

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66. "i imagine a hip hop answer to 'punk' as being ultra minimal"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

not actually the start of it, unless people just get back to rhyming over a live dj, but the rick rubin/mid 80s era, where its was just massive booming drum machines and not much else.

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 05:55 PM

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67. "on some 'reduced by Rick Rubin' shit, I wouldn't mind that"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

I don't want it to be so retro that it becomes an affectation though, just something raw with a contemporary spin in content perhaps.

  

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fire
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111366 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 02:31 PM

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49. "rap is rick ross boss?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:52 PM

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51. "yup, with its shirt off and everything"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

.

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
78121 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 10:30 AM

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92. "lol thats what i was thinkin"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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GumDrops
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Wed Jul-01-09 02:57 PM

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53. "rap is dead. sorry. its time for something ELSE to knock rap out. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but it wont be from within hip-hop.

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 03:00 PM

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55. "RE: rap is dead. sorry. its time for something ELSE to knock rap out. "
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>but it wont be from within hip-hop.

this could be true, I guess I'm impatient to hear the next step whether it comes from within it or not.

  

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sun_das_ill
Member since Nov 29th 2002
11308 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 03:05 PM

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58. "*kicks Over Soap Box* Screaming "All Y'all Shut the Fuck Up!""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You want newness to download. That music is out there but not on BET or MTV so you can attach your sorry asses to it with that fake ass Game.

http://sundasill.tumblr.com/

  

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steg1
Charter member
3334 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 03:23 PM

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61. "Chuuuch!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

im witchaz son.

www.jambase.com ~~~Go See Live Music~~~
www.upfulLIFE.com / www.facebook.com/UPFULLife

"...shocked the small axe could knocka giant lopsided" (c)Pretty Flaco

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 03:51 PM

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65. "my man(c)Frank Lucas"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

.

  

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specityo
Member since Feb 06th 2005
5899 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 03:24 PM

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62. "tell us where this sound is gonna come from."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Jul-01-09 03:43 PM

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64. "if I knew Id be taking time off work to be there while it was happening"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

.

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 06:02 PM

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68. "i actually think grime was hip hops punk"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but thats already basically dead too.

i mean, look at tunes like this -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78LC4nCTtIk

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Wed Jul-01-09 06:15 PM

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69. "i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

rick rubin style minimalism has been done already... it's retro, retread, rehash at this point (neptunes, cool kids, etc.). that's not punk, it's tribute. the only problem w/ grime being hip-hop's answer to punk is that it never truly crossed over to our side of the pond like punk rock did very quickly after it began (well, you took from our rock music, but i digress). no, the truth is that hip-hop itself paralleled punk from the start. aesthetically speaking, it's punk in its purest form.

  

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Bombastic
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71. "RE: i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

>rick rubin style minimalism has been done already... it's
>retro, retread, rehash at this point (neptunes, cool kids,
>etc.). that's not punk, it's tribute.
I agree but there's gotta be a way to boil something down while maintaining a contemporary/new bent.

the only problem w/
>grime being hip-hop's answer to punk is that it never truly
>crossed over to our side of the pond like punk rock did very
>quickly after it began (well, you took from our rock music,
>but i digress).
punk started on our side of the pond, that Pistols type of stuff was really just the British answer to MC5/Stooges/Ramones.

no, the truth is that hip-hop itself
>paralleled punk from the start. aesthetically speaking, it's
>punk in its purest form.
I'd be interest to see this thought fleshed out a little more.

  

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howisya
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Thu Jul-02-09 07:52 AM

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87. "RE: i'd agree w/ that sooner than what you're saying above"
In response to Reply # 71
Thu Jul-02-09 08:00 AM by howisya

  

          

>the only problem w/
>>grime being hip-hop's answer to punk is that it never truly
>>crossed over to our side of the pond like punk rock did very
>>quickly after it began (well, you took from our rock music,
>>but i digress).
>punk started on our side of the pond, that Pistols type of
>stuff was really just the British answer to
>MC5/Stooges/Ramones.

that's basically what i was just saying. the ramones and the sex pistols came out around the same time, but i think the UK had a punk "scene" before we did, since we never called mc5 or the stooges "punk rock" until long after.


>no, the truth is that hip-hop itself
>>paralleled punk from the start. aesthetically speaking, it's
>>punk in its purest form.
>I'd be interest to see this thought fleshed out a little
>more.

i've thought about it before, so maybe in the future i'll post about it. it's an abstract comparison of the musical forms as far as how they're made, who they were made by and who for. also, if you look to the late '70s into the '80s NYC, a lot of the punks (and new wave and no wavers) and hip-hoppers knew each other and intermingled. the scenes weren't as segregated as some might assume (or want to believe, oddly). look who worked with afrika bambaataa: john "johnny rotten" lydon (time zone). blondie: fab 5 freddy ("rapture" video and the entire wild style film score). liquid liquid "cavern" and ESG "UFO" quickly becoming hip-hop staples. etc.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Thu Jul-02-09 07:50 AM

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86. "punk didn't cross over in america though..."
In response to Reply # 69


          

New Wave did I guess but punk was operating on a grass-roots level in the US until the early 90's and that's the thing I was getting at above: internet has made the cultural isolation *needed* for something to grow like that impossible...

  

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howisya
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88. "punk didn't cross over in america though... are you serious?!"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

even if by cross over you mean a huge commercial "crossover" (which isn't what i meant), there was the mall punk of the '80s, which was punk *influenced*, as was new wave.


>internet has made the cultural isolation
>*needed* for something to grow like that impossible...

i think i agree. there are still communities that aren't really on the internet though, however dwindling a population they are. it's hard to say if they feel the need to create a new musical movement because even if they did i think a lot of the music that inspires them is digitally produced and thus out of reach for them to spin off of.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Thu Jul-02-09 09:21 AM

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90. "I don't think it did really..."
In response to Reply # 88


          

>even if by cross over you mean a huge commercial "crossover"
>(which isn't what i meant), there was the mall punk of the
>'80s, which was punk *influenced*, as was new wave.

What was the mall-punk of the 80's? I've never even heard that term. Anyway, I'm referring to hardcore, the US post-punk movements etc. which was strictly indie more-or-less and was sustained by fanzines, local shows, indie- or even self-pressed records that suffered from bad distribution etc. The alternative american rock that got attention above grass-roots level in the 80's was stuff like R.E.M. and numerous forgotten bands like the Plimsouls, Green On Red, Dream Syndicate etc., bands who's connection to punk was pretty small IMO, it was more rooted in the mid-70's US power-pop boom...

  

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howisya
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91. "RE: I don't think it did really..."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>>even if by cross over you mean a huge commercial
>"crossover"
>>(which isn't what i meant), there was the mall punk of the
>>'80s, which was punk *influenced*, as was new wave.
>
>What was the mall-punk of the 80's? I've never even heard that
>term.

like the go go's, the bangles, etc., and influencing them, the runaways. you can quibble over the term if you want, but you know the music i'm talking aobut.


>Anyway, I'm referring to hardcore, the US post-punk
>movements etc.

ok, but i wasn't, at least not post-punk. how did we even get on this tangent anyway? there was no american counterpart to grime. i'm waiting for you or anyone else to correct me on that. there was american punk rock, whether it came first, at the same time, or immediately after british punk rock. thus i can't justify grime being hip-hop's answer to punk or version of a punk movement, especially over the idea that hip-hop itself was the '70s and '80s black (w/ some latinos and whites) inner city youth "punk"-like answer to a void that existed in music and culture.

  

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Bombastic
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95. "RE: punk didn't cross over in america though..."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

>New Wave did I guess but punk was operating on a grass-roots
>level in the US until the early 90's and that's the thing I
>was getting at above: internet has made the cultural isolation
>*needed* for something to grow like that impossible...

what about the respective LA scenes in the late 70s with X, The Germs, Black Flag or the NYC CBGB scene from around the same time?

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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99. "You call that crossing over?"
In response to Reply # 95
Thu Jul-02-09 11:50 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

Wer'e talking about albums that sold in the range of maybe 20 000 at most (and that was rare). At any rate, the music didn't shake up the establishment in the US in any way like it actually did in the UK where punk was genuinely popular; it was a marginalized subgenre that could thrive on a grassroots/DIY level for MANY years before the mainstream started to pay attention which I guess it started to do with Nirvana and those acts in the early 90's...

  

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Bombastic
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100. "ok, I guess from a 'platinum' type of perspective I can see your point"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

and I know you love to give Nirvana props, so I'll ride with that.

  

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GumDrops
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104. "well if hip hop already *was* punk then wheres hip hops nirvana?"
In response to Reply # 69
Thu Jul-02-09 06:54 PM by GumDrops

  

          

or grunge?

but i think grime really was like the hip hop punk. it wass fast/frenetic, ultra raw/angry, not pretty at all, didnt have much to do with ideas of 'good taste', so in the same way old rock fans said punk artists were talentless, couldnt sing, couldnt play etc, loads of hip hop artists and fans thought the same about grime artists. though it never said it was opposed to bloated hip hop that was around at the time (in truth it was influenced by a lot of hip hop from then) how punk artists said they hated prog and other 'big' artists of the time, grime was way rawer and hungrier than mainstream hip hop of the time.

eg -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxK2n-K2LLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DHjMbyENS4

  

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howisya
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Thu Jul-02-09 07:02 PM

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108. "what's nirvana got to do with anything?"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

are you saying nirvana was the culmination or progression of punk?

if we're looking at grunge music as begat from post-hardcore, itself begat from hardcore, itself begat from punk... you see where i'm going with this?... then i guess the early to mid '90s hip-hop this board champions would be hip-hop's answer to punk. popular but still a continuation of the original ideals and retaining credibility. i dunno, it's a rough analogy and not one that's needed in the belief that hip-hop was a homolog of punk.


>but i think grime really was like the hip hop punk. it wass
>fast/frenetic, ultra raw/angry, not pretty at all, didnt have
>much to do with ideas of 'good taste', so in the same way old
>rock fans said punk artists were talentless, couldnt sing,
>couldnt play etc, loads of hip hop artists and fans thought
>the same about grime artists.

i agree (and please don't spoil this by bringing up the immediately accepted and quickly generic sounds of swizz beatz), but i still think for this to work as hip-hop's answer to punk there had to be an american form of grime. otherwise it's just another niche movement, and you guys are spectacular at creating music that never catches on anywhere else.

  

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GumDrops
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109. "RE: what's nirvana got to do with anything?"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

>are you saying nirvana was the culmination or progression of
>punk?

they were def the band that took elements of punk to the rock mainstream in the us, which never happened til they arrived.

im getting confused with this 'hip hop already was punk' theory youre talking about. i know people have been saying hip hop was the black punk for years (ie it was punk to black music overall), but it was actually more like the *new* black rock (the parallels are endless). so doesnt mean it cant have its own punk. to be honest, i think the closest american rap will have gotten is the harder crunk/southern rap stuff, even though it had none of punks anti establishment stance going on. but if we think of grime as the closest to hip hops punk, sonically, if nothing else, than maybe the nirvana thing will happen in another 5 or so years (ie grime came around in the early 00s, and it took over a decade for nirvana to take punk to the mainstream in the states).

>>but i think grime really was like the hip hop punk. it wass
>>fast/frenetic, ultra raw/angry, not pretty at all, didnt
>have
>>much to do with ideas of 'good taste', so in the same way
>old
>>rock fans said punk artists were talentless, couldnt sing,
>>couldnt play etc, loads of hip hop artists and fans thought
>>the same about grime artists.
>
>i agree (and please don't spoil this by bringing up the
>immediately accepted and quickly generic sounds of swizz
>beatz), but i still think for this to work as hip-hop's answer
>to punk there had to be an american form of grime. otherwise
>it's just another niche movement, and you guys are spectacular
>at creating music that never catches on anywhere else.

swizz? swizz was pretty influential on a lot of grime producers actually (if you didnt already know). i dont think it not catching on in the US matters. doesnt change the nature of the music or where it stands in relation to the rest of hip hop. british black music rarely catches on in the us, unless it can pass itself off as american. so maybe hip hop could never have its punk.

either way, its always difficult, maybe never a great thing to place rock timelines/expectations on other genres, even if hip hop resembles rock in so many other ways.

  

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howisya
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110. "RE: what's nirvana got to do with anything?"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>im getting confused with this 'hip hop already was punk'
>theory youre talking about. i know people have been saying hip
>hop was the black punk for years (ie it was punk to black
>music overall), but it was actually more like the *new* black
>rock (the parallels are endless).

i was just thinking of how the tools for creating hip-hop--turntables, other people's music--paralleled the punk musicians who "couldn't play" their instruments or sing well, yet the rawness still sounded good and appealed to the kids, as did the lyrics (hip-hop and punk both had "party" and social commentary songs). both genres were urban born--NYC, LA, london--and communal to those who got it and a racket/noise to those who didn't, who persecuted it.

i've never been into the idea of "black rock" personally. i know when Whale Boy was still alive and obsessed he'd always bring up that afro punk documentary to dis me, but i've never seen it and may not. black people were the first rock & rollers, and while the genre has become majority white a long time ago, blacks never left. i think the supposed "blackness" of the music made by those remaining in the genre is really overstated and overrated. i just want good rock music and couldn't care less who's making it.


>to be honest, i think the closest american rap
>will have gotten is the harder crunk/southern rap stuff, even
>though it had none of punks anti establishment stance going
>on.

right. not a bad idea, but i think it was a little too palatable to outsiders to parallel punk.


>but if we think of grime as the closest to hip hops punk,
>sonically, if nothing else, than maybe the nirvana thing will
>happen in another 5 or so years (ie grime came around in the
>early 00s, and it took over a decade for nirvana to take punk
>to the mainstream in the states).

i think i'm lost at the nirvana being punk thing. i know they had that 1991 the year punk broke documentary, but i have a hard time considering them punk.

do you think grime has even influenced any musicians (producers, rappers, etc.) prominent in the U.S.? i just don't see the UK having the only "punk" movement in hip-hop and then having the "grunge" movement, while we over here remain oblivious to it all.



>>i agree (and please don't spoil this by bringing up the
>>immediately accepted and quickly generic sounds of swizz
>>beatz), but i still think for this to work as hip-hop's
>answer
>>to punk there had to be an american form of grime. otherwise
>>it's just another niche movement, and you guys are
>spectacular
>>at creating music that never catches on anywhere else.
>
>swizz? swizz was pretty influential on a lot of grime
>producers actually (if you didnt already know).

sigh. that's why i was requesting you not bring it up.

for swizz to be "punk rock" his sound (whether he used to make it himself or he always bought tracks off others) wouldn't have been accepted immediately. name the early swizz beats that bombed. i'll wait.


>i dont think
>it not catching on in the US matters. doesnt change the nature
>of the music or where it stands in relation to the rest of hip
>hop.

if a tree falls in the forest...?


>so maybe hip hop could
>never have its punk.

it's possible.


>either way, its always difficult, maybe never a great thing to
>place rock timelines/expectations on other genres, even if hip
>hop resembles rock in so many other ways.

i actually agree. for the sake of Bombastic's question though, punk is a natural comparison to make. remember, we didn't have a grime type of movement here, we're still waiting for things to get more interesting. even underground rap just sounds like a league of wannabes.

  

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GumDrops
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111. "i didnt mean black rock as in living colour etc"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

i just meant hip hop is sort of black music's rock (im forgetting 50s rnr for convenience). R&B is more like black pop, but hip hop is, or was rather, its rock, where it was very artist driven, took itself more seriously, thought of itself as an agent for social change, an album oriented medium, against the establishment, against 'pop ideals', etc etc. lots of parallels. but yeah i agree, a lot of the so called card carrying black rockers like in afro punk etc, i cant hear anything all that 'black' (as in RnB/soul/funk influenced) in their music. but thats a separate post. we dont need to go there again.

  

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Bombastic
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112. "RE: i didnt mean black rock as in living colour etc"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>i just meant hip hop is sort of black music's rock (im
>forgetting 50s rnr for convenience). R&B is more like black
>pop, but hip hop is, or was rather, its rock, where it was
>very artist driven, took itself more seriously, thought of
>itself as an agent for social change, an album oriented
>medium, against the establishment, against 'pop ideals', etc
>etc. lots of parallels.

I was gonna ask is this still the case but then saw you wrote 'was', which I'm inclined to agree with. When did this change though? Was there a watershed moment or more a gradual shift over time for a variety of reasons?

  

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Radio Rahim
Member since Jul 21st 2008
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Wed Jul-01-09 07:03 PM

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73. "Agreed. Something that will bring hip-hop together (real heads)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

__________________________
Duke, Knicks, Yankess, Giants, UGA, Rangers

Binlahab droppin science on the youth

"youre frustrated now? in undergrad? reading books all day?,
surrounded by more nubile unattached pussy than you will be in your life?"

  

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CondoM
Member since Aug 20th 2006
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Wed Jul-01-09 07:15 PM

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75. "*keeps listening to P.O.S.*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He'll never blow, but he and the rest of Doomtree are close enough for me.

http://www.last.fm/user/_CondoM_/

  

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simpsycho
Member since May 29th 2007
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Wed Jul-01-09 07:20 PM

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77. "It's like people forget that hip-hop exists outside of the radio"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

If you think hip-hop is stale and boring, you just need to dig deeper.

  

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Bombastic
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79. "I really dont listen to the radio,what Im talkin bout hasnt happened tho"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

and I'm really trying to avoid this being a 'hip-hop is dead'/'youre not looking hard enough' debate. That's been done to death here. I don't subscribe fully to either viewpoint.

  

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simpsycho
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Wed Jul-01-09 07:32 PM

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81. "I feel like what you're talking about it unnecessary though"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

I've got plenty of dope hip-hop to listen to still, I don't feel a need for hip-hop to turn into anything other than what it is. Sure, the stuff I listen to might not piss off the "establishment", but even if it did, that wouldn't make it any more enjoyable to listen to.

  

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Bombastic
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83. "I still have some shit to listen to as well, that ain't the point though"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

but if you're fully satisfied, then this thread ain't for you I guess.

  

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roaches
Member since Jun 04th 2003
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Wed Jul-01-09 07:17 PM

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76. "yall are just old (semi-jk) n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Bombastic
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80. "I wouldn't mind some shit that makes me feel old & that I don't get"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

but I'm enough of a refined listener to tell the difference between stuff that alienates me by its youth and stuff that's just uninspired.

Rick Ross, Drake, Lupe or even Blu ain't missing me because I'm 32. I just know they ain't really it.

  

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dafriquan
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78. "if grime was american, it would fit this perfectly"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

when it first hit the same, it was quite abrasive and not palatable at all to the mainstream. and the music was directly linked to encouraging crime. the sounds were unconventional and distorted. the punk cousin of hip-hop like gumdrops said.

but it was not american. and when exported to america was channeled through hipsters thereby instantly diminishing the "threat" and "danger" of it.

so that's a closed chapter.

what do i propose? a more "hood" and crunk version of the roots. i saw hypnotic brass ensemble and had me wig blown back. everybody was dancing. i felt like i saw the future

but i want something even less refined. i imagine untrained ghetto kids picking up jazz instruments and playing it without knowing "how" to play it. the music would be punk as fuck. i am sure of it.

  

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Bombastic
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82. "from the sound of Gum's example I can kinda see it, unfortunately"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

with this genre it needed to make a dent here and I think the filters you're talking about did negatively effect it.

when it first hit the same, it was quite abrasive and not
>palatable at all to the mainstream. and the music was directly
>linked to encouraging crime. the sounds were unconventional
>and distorted. the punk cousin of hip-hop like gumdrops said.
>
>but it was not american. and when exported to america was
>channeled through hipsters thereby instantly diminishing the
>"threat" and "danger" of it.
>
>so that's a closed chapter.
>
>what do i propose? a more "hood" and crunk version of the
>roots. i saw hypnotic brass ensemble and had me wig blown
>back. everybody was dancing. i felt like i saw the future
>
>but i want something even less refined. i imagine untrained
>ghetto kids picking up jazz instruments and playing it without
>knowing "how" to play it. the music would be punk as fuck. i
>am sure of it.

^^^^this last paragraph is the kind of shit I'm talking about. good thoughts.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-02-09 04:48 PM

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103. "The ''hipster'' faction is the problem..."
In response to Reply # 78


          

>and when exported to america was
>channeled through hipsters thereby instantly diminishing the
>"threat" and "danger" of it.

As soon as "they" (us?) lay the hands on everything new and "exciting" and "dangerous" as fast as "they" (we?) do, shit can never amount to much unfortunately...

  

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dafriquan
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120. "yup. hipsters chew up new music and spit it out"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>>and when exported to america was
>>channeled through hipsters thereby instantly diminishing the
>>"threat" and "danger" of it.
>
>As soon as "they" (us?) lay the hands on everything new and
>"exciting" and "dangerous" as fast as "they" (we?) do, shit
>can never amount to much unfortunately...
the turnover rate is just too fast.
intense love followed by complete dis-interest.

  

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GumDrops
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106. "this is interesting"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

>but i want something even less refined. i imagine untrained
>ghetto kids picking up jazz instruments and playing it without
>knowing "how" to play it. the music would be punk as fuck. i
>am sure of it.

cos at this point, instruments in black music might be seen as more 'punk' than a beat machine/bit of software. i cant see it happening though, sadly.

  

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redbaron
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Thu Jul-02-09 09:14 AM

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89. "yes yes......but what will it be?!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


i've been feeling that way for a while

like i'm waiting for some shit to just crawl out the gutter and fuck everyones head up

for a minute i actually thought it was gonna be jay electronica, i heard a few joints and thought 'this is gonna change things' but lo and behold it never really panned out, then he started doing interviews and showing up here and there and supposedly bombed a few live shows and the mystique sort of flopped

i feel like what you're waiting for could either be embodied in an emcee that is just so ridiculous on all levels who just comes out of nowhere....or in a completely different style of music, as you described earlier, that's raw and polarizes the masses


_______________________________________

you have sexually transmitted crazy mouth...DEALBREAKER!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIMxP70sAM&feature=related

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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Thu Jul-02-09 11:02 AM

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93. "2009 has been a pretty good year for hip hop..... "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

....so i cant even complain like ive been able to do in past years this decade

  

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trek life
Member since Oct 20th 2004
3766 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 11:25 AM

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94. "I'm trying to keep from being long-winded on this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Society itself has switched to an "individual" perspective completely and totally. So all music has done the same thing. We saw these Fight the Power type things back in the day because through several means, artist were discovering that their struggles weren't new to music. They were listening to old records and searching for information to be the first on the scene to tell you about the "struggle."

It was also popular to do so. It was cool to have some form of message in your music for a while. Because people werequick to try to relate to each other. You can see it now more and more everyday that people have a "that's your problem" mentality, so it only seems fitting that the music of the day is the soundtrack for that mentality.

I have a bunch of conveluted opinions on how and why this is, that I think about daily to be honest. But I just don't see anything that the people are going to ban together on these days enough for any music to create a theme song or even good background music for.

-------------------
Trek Life's debut album "Price I've Paid" available now

"New Money" Price I've Paid remix album prod by Oddisee, available on Itunes and in stores May 5th

New album "Everything Changed Nothing" coming soon

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 11:44 AM

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96. "current society's really so much more individual-driven than Reagan era?"
In response to Reply # 94
Thu Jul-02-09 11:45 AM by Bombastic

  

          

>Society itself has switched to an "individual" perspective
>completely and totally. So all music has done the same thing.
> We saw these Fight the Power type things back in the day
>because through several means, artist were discovering that
>their struggles weren't new to music. They were listening to
>old records and searching for information to be the first on
>the scene to tell you about the "struggle."
>
>It was also popular to do so. It was cool to have some form
>of message in your music for a while. Because people
>werequick to try to relate to each other. You can see it now
>more and more everyday that people have a "that's your
>problem" mentality, so it only seems fitting that the music of
>the day is the soundtrack for that mentality.
>
>I have a bunch of conveluted opinions on how and why this is,
>that I think about daily to be honest. But I just don't see
>anything that the people are going to ban together on these
>days enough for any music to create a theme song or even good
>background music for.
>
>-------------------
>Trek Life's debut album "Price I've Paid" available now
>
>"New Money" Price I've Paid remix album prod by Oddisee,
>available on Itunes and in stores May 5th
>
>New album "Everything Changed Nothing" coming soon

  

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trek life
Member since Oct 20th 2004
3766 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 06:53 PM

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107. "RE: current society's really so much more individual-driven than Reagan ..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

The black community has become especially more individually driven during that time. When PE, X-Clan etc was making statements in music.

I actually agree with you, maybe with the downturn in the economy music will take shape in a few years in that direction, but right now I see a "if you aint got yours that's your fault" type of thinking going around.

-------------------
Trek Life's debut album "Price I've Paid" available now

"New Money" Price I've Paid remix album prod by Oddisee, available on Itunes and in stores May 5th

New album "Everything Changed Nothing" coming soon

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
13945 posts
Mon Jul-06-09 11:29 AM

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119. "Co-MFin SIGN"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

Just a month ago, I don't remember why but my friend and I were cruising around, boxing the car, having an unusual conversation for my friends to have: an intellectual one. I wish I could remember the rest of the conversation, but due to circumstances I only remember the crux of it that made the whole thing devolve into a disagreement rather than an argument.

Essentially, I asked him to think about how self-centered much of our generation (I'm 21, he's 19) seems when you compare it to generations past. Your post resonated with me particularly because of the phrase "that's your problem", which I specifically pointed out.

"Oh, you don't like Drake? Hater, that's your problem!"

No, guy, sometimes there are REASONS, like that Weingarten Rolling Stone guy said in that video posted a day or two ago, there are WHYS and BECAUSES.

It's sad, but in an era where all public schools seem to be forcing a critical thinking-oriented curriculum on the faculty and students, there is very little critical thinking on a day-to-basis when it comes to most people my age and their entertainment/culture.

I spend a lot of my time on the internet, or with iPod earbuds in, but part of me is jealous of people that grew up with 10 channels and a Colecovision.


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

NBA 2K9 on PSN: Nodima

  

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truekolor
Member since Oct 02nd 2003
1330 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 03:18 PM

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101. "i wanna say janelle monae was that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but then i dunno what happened to her.....and to be honest its like the cliche phrase "there's nothing new under sun"...thats true, everything has been done already...we can only hope for creativity and imagination...

you know what...thats what hiphop is lacking, imagination...niggas dont dream anymore, they jus want money

and to be honest im not sure if hiphop needs to knocked around as oppossed to maybe niggas need to start changin they focus to uplifting the black community, calling out racism...u know tellin black people to stop killin each other...u know real life shit...

i dont know, maybe follow soul music's example...im remdinded of someones post about hiphop not having an MJ or stevie because its too scared to be vulnerable, its not "hood" enough...maybe hiphop needs to grow up and take responsibilty, i dunno shit...learn how to love niggas

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
39863 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 04:41 PM

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102. "dude..."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

i love janelle monae's raps!

seriously, i think she's talented and enjoy her music, but i don't get the hype. some people even said she could be the next MJ or global superstar.

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Thu Jul-02-09 06:30 PM

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105. "a lot of her stuff is way more ordinary sounding than i thought"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

from all the hype and cool outfits/sci fi imagery... most of that ep just sounded like bad rock.

  

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Dezzus Khryste
Member since Jul 05th 2009
2 posts
Sun Jul-05-09 10:51 PM

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113. "RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"
In response to Reply # 0


          

lol to be honest im sue gucci mane scares the shit outta white folks.

  

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Bombastic
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88860 posts
Sun Jul-05-09 11:05 PM

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114. "RE: Rap Has Gotten So Flabby & Sick Someone Needs To Knock Its Ass Out"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

>lol to be honest im sue gucci mane scares the shit outta
>white folks.

lol, I hear you to some degree but it's more like 99% of white folks probably have no idea who Gucci Mane is.....he's at that 2000-era 3-6 Mafia buzz. I look forward to Gucci's Oscar Speech though.

  

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