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Subject: "So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*" This topic is locked.
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disco dj
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Sun Nov-07-10 01:53 PM

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"So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*"


  

          

keep on thinkin' that...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40030700/ns/technology_and_science-security/?GT1=43001

MINNEAPOLIS — A Minnesota woman ordered to pay a recording industry trade group $1.5 million for illegally sharing music online doesn't plan to pay those damages as her attorneys continue to argue the amount is unconstitutional, she said Thursday.

A federal jury found Wednesday that Jammie Thomas-Rasset, of Brainerd, must pay $62,500 per song — for a total of $1.5 million — for illegally violating copyrights on 24 songs. This was the third jury to consider damages in her case, and each has found that she must pay — though different amounts.

And after each time, the single mother of four has said she can't pay.

"I can't afford to pay any amount. It's not a matter of won't, it's a matter of 'I can't,'" Thomas-Rasset said Thursday. "Any amount that I pay to them is money that I could use to feed my children. Any amount that I pay to them is money I could use to clothe my kids, and pay my mortgage so my kids have a place to sleep."

The Recording Industry Association of America has said it found Thomas-Rasset shared more than 1,700 songs on the file-sharing site Kazaa, but it sued over 24 of them. RIAA spokeswoman Cara Duckworth said the association made several attempts to settle with Thomas-Rasset, at first for $5,000, but Thomas-Rasset refused.

Duckworth said the RIAA was thankful the jury recognized the severity of Thomas-Rasset's misconduct.

"Three juries have now spoken and each has sent a strong message that she needs to accept responsibility for her actions," Duckworth said. "I'd say, enough is enough."


Under federal law, the recording companies are entitled to $750 to $30,000 per infringement but the law allows the jury to raise that to as much as $150,000 per track if it finds the infringements were willful.

The vast majority of people targeted by music industry lawsuits have settled for about $3,500 each. The recording industry has said it stopped filing such lawsuits and is instead working with Internet service providers to go after the worst offenders.

Thomas-Rasset, 33, was the first person to go to trial. In 2007, jurors decided she willfully violated the copyrights on all 24 songs, and she was ordered to pay $9,250 per song, or $222,000.

But Chief U.S. District Judge Michael Davis ordered a new trial, deciding he had erred in giving jury instructions. The case went back to court. Last year, another jury also found that Thomas-Rasset willfully violated the copyrights and ordered her to pay $1.92 million in damages, or $80,000 per song.

Davis called that figure "monstrous and shocking" and reduced the penalty to about $54,000. The RIAA rejected the reduced penalty for legal reasons. But the industry group said it would settle for $25,000, with the money going to a charity for struggling musicians.

Thomas-Rasset refused, setting up another trial to deal just with the issue of damages.

Her attorney, Kiwi Camara, said he has 30 days to submit arguments that the statutes allowing for such hefty damages in these cases are unconstitutional. He said even the minimum amount for damages is not reasonably related to the actual harm caused to the recording industry.

He said in Thomas-Rasset's case, the minimum damage amount would be $18,000, but the actual damages are $24 — the amount Thomas-Rasset would have paid if she bought each song for $1 off iTunes.

Camara said he'll take the argument to the appeals court if necessary.

Thomas-Rasset has maintained her innocence from the start, saying she never used Kazaa. She said Thursday that the law allowing for such disproportionate damages needs to be changed, and she's willing to keep fighting.

"It's not a fair law," she said. "In my eyes, it's legalized extortion."

When a reporter pointed out that three juries of her peers had decided that she should pay well above the minimum, she said there's "no rhyme or reason to the numbers" but she respects jurors for doing their jobs.


She said she's not going to worry about damages until the case is finalized and appeals are finished. Even then, she said, she'd probably file for bankruptcy and write off the damages, rather than pay herself.

Duckworth said if the case is appealed, the RIAA is ready to defend the constitutionality of the verdict. She said the issue is still important, even after all this time.

"People forget about all of the individuals who work really hard to make music for a living," she said. "These people are negatively impacted whenever music is stolen and distributed to millions of people."

In another high-profile case in Boston, a federal judge this summer reduced from $675,000 to $67,500 the amount of damages a Boston University graduate student was ordered to pay. In that case, Joel Tenenbaum of Providence admitted downloading songs between 1999 and 2007. The case is currently under appeal.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
well, contrary to your post title, people *do* think music is free
Nov 07th 2010
1
we've had this discussion Ad Nauseum. it's not free.
Nov 07th 2010
2
well, you're basically arguing semantics
Nov 07th 2010
10
      So basically you're argument that it's free because somebody else
Nov 07th 2010
13
      see post 16
Nov 07th 2010
17
      no. i'm not.
Nov 07th 2010
15
           RE: no. i'm not.
Nov 07th 2010
16
           philosophically, this is huge
Nov 07th 2010
38
           The pants were free if you didn't pay for them
Nov 07th 2010
20
           You going into the store to take the pants
Nov 07th 2010
21
                THERE IS NO ANALOGY
Nov 07th 2010
34
           You can't own no 1's & 0's!!!
Nov 07th 2010
33
           ain't no lock on the door playa
Nov 08th 2010
77
my question is
Nov 07th 2010
3
i know you weren't asking me, but here's my thoughts...
Nov 07th 2010
4
I see it
Nov 07th 2010
5
'Cuz it's stolen goods...
Nov 07th 2010
8
      The bootleg CD on the block is not stolen goods n/m
Nov 07th 2010
35
           Of course to the people buying bootlegs it ain't "stolen"...
Nov 07th 2010
44
                Perhaps the bootlegger is the label head's cousin n/m
Nov 07th 2010
50
                     lol. Then perhaps the label head needs to be investigated...
Nov 07th 2010
64
                          or cooks
Nov 07th 2010
69
I don't understand this...
Nov 07th 2010
11
      RE: I don't understand this...
Nov 07th 2010
14
           Yup...
Nov 07th 2010
18
                *cough* http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_...
Nov 07th 2010
37
                     But there's a difference between being forced...
Nov 07th 2010
62
we all know music aint free, however...
Nov 07th 2010
6
^^ sense & sensibility ^^
Nov 07th 2010
7
RE: we all know music aint free, however...
Nov 07th 2010
9
I agree in principle....BUT.
Nov 07th 2010
12
I agree w/punishment, but to clarify...
Nov 07th 2010
22
If you have ONE hi-speed dub cassette in your crib... n/m
Nov 07th 2010
31
that was ONE of my points...
Nov 07th 2010
52
I'm saying.....
Nov 08th 2010
76
that was a good answer
Nov 08th 2010
83
RE: we all know music aint free, however...
Nov 10th 2010
107
Who still thinks the laws about this are bullshit?
Nov 07th 2010
19
RE: So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*
Nov 07th 2010
23
semantics.
Nov 07th 2010
24
RE: semantics.
Nov 07th 2010
25
      does it matter, though?
Nov 07th 2010
27
           Yes it matters.
Nov 07th 2010
28
           Don't let me find a VHS tape with a Super Bowl on it n/m
Nov 07th 2010
32
I think the sharer is the guilty one.
Nov 07th 2010
26
      From the little research I've done...
Nov 07th 2010
29
Nov 07th 2010
30
Nov 07th 2010
36
i think the price comes from the amount of people who got it.
Nov 07th 2010
42
I've had engineering/production gigs with acts -
Nov 07th 2010
39
^^dry snitching^^^
Nov 07th 2010
43
      not even
Nov 07th 2010
51
           i'm just givin' you shit, man. It's all jokes...
Nov 07th 2010
55
           Logic is an amazing example
Nov 07th 2010
57
                also, it definitely boosted the sales of macs substantially
Nov 07th 2010
67
where are you getting this from?
Nov 07th 2010
41
      "Projected Illegal Downloads" is on spreadsheets fam
Nov 07th 2010
47
today's musicians shouldn't waste their time complaining about piracy
Nov 07th 2010
40
this reply was just dumb....
Nov 07th 2010
45
since you're so smart
Nov 07th 2010
49
      It is dumb. I don't think it even needs any explanation.
Nov 07th 2010
53
      dumb for who ?
Nov 07th 2010
56
           it is easy to explain but why bother?
Nov 07th 2010
59
      funny you should ask....
Nov 07th 2010
54
           just cause i'm in a contrarian mood
Nov 07th 2010
58
           You really believe this hippie b.s.?
Nov 07th 2010
60
                People think I'm joking when I say I'm an art evangelist
Nov 07th 2010
61
                     Funny thing is that I am also an art evangelist.
Nov 07th 2010
63
                          $ can be a reason to _make_ art but not to *make* art
Nov 07th 2010
70
           no industry
Nov 07th 2010
66
you're an idiot.
Nov 07th 2010
74
      tu mado ?
Nov 08th 2010
79
and who punishes the labels that leak their own shit?
Nov 07th 2010
46
They would never do that n/m
Nov 07th 2010
48
conflict of interest
Nov 08th 2010
81
what ppl never mention is how money makes music
Nov 07th 2010
65
interesting, but i completely disagree
Nov 07th 2010
68
      music will exist, but only as a bunch of amateurs
Nov 07th 2010
71
           whatever dude
Nov 08th 2010
80
                Yeah and what's the average age of those dudes
Nov 08th 2010
87
                     I agree
Nov 08th 2010
88
This Is The Part That Seems So Wrong & Infamous About The Situation
Nov 07th 2010
72
technology fucked the record industry
Nov 07th 2010
73
This poast seems a bit out of touch famb.
Nov 07th 2010
75
Leaving out moral judgements and personal biases.......
Nov 08th 2010
78
^^^^^
Nov 08th 2010
84
Im pretty sure this person is being sued for sharing music not dling
Nov 08th 2010
82
Re-examine "money".
Nov 08th 2010
85
it's not my problem/i don't care/it is free.
Nov 08th 2010
86
I can dig that, BUT.
Nov 08th 2010
91
      this is capitalism.
Nov 09th 2010
94
is it freely available? is there means of obtaining it free?
Nov 08th 2010
89
Half-agree.
Nov 09th 2010
93
Music is not free
Nov 08th 2010
90
*applause*
Nov 08th 2010
92
ahh, the moral/paying-for-music-makes-me-feel-good argument
Nov 09th 2010
99
      i wasn't really looking at it from paying to not worry about ...
Nov 09th 2010
100
           Don't mind them, dude... I know exactly what you're talking about.
Nov 10th 2010
101
           doesn't happen w/me b/c i listen to it all the same way.
Nov 10th 2010
103
                but you don't have a different 'feeling' or attachment to the music...
Nov 10th 2010
104
                     not at all.
Nov 10th 2010
105
           i get you
Nov 10th 2010
102
she needs to file bankruptcy like last weekend!
Nov 09th 2010
95
You guys should start using PEERBLOCK.
Nov 09th 2010
96
1) read more Mike Masnick
Nov 09th 2010
97
Does this happen to people who use mediafire, megaupload etc.
Nov 09th 2010
98
RE: So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*
Nov 10th 2010
106
"Cost" and "(Intrinsic) Value" are two different things.
Nov 15th 2010
108

PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 02:25 PM

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1. "well, contrary to your post title, people *do* think music is free"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and that's because it is.

until the industry is able to produce and implement technology in conjunction with ISPs that tracks every single media download scanning for infringement, the music will ALWAYS be free.

even then, you'll have start-up ISPs like Clear who won't institute those types of regulations onto their users. ISPs like AT&T already limit bandwidth based on how much a user is downloading/uploading. Clear doesn't do this at all.

laws could be passed in the near future making it mandatory to regulate and monitor the downloading/uploading habits of users, but this task alone would take years to implement to the point where it actually works.

the dinosaur industry needs to stop wasting resources trying to make examples of common-folk and instead of punishing them, they need to recognize what these consumers want, how they consume media, and adapt their business model to accommodate it.

  

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disco dj
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84260 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 02:34 PM

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2. "we've had this discussion Ad Nauseum. it's not free."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>and that's because it is.
>

not it's not. I'm not gonna argue with you.

>until the industry is able to produce and implement technology
>in conjunction with ISPs that tracks every single media
>download scanning for infringement, the music will ALWAYS be
>free.



it's easy to illegally obtain. But it's not free.



I'm not gonna do this dance today. Music is not free. Period. Unless an artist actually posts up a "FREE DOWNLOAD" link, then you're stealing.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 04:28 PM

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10. "well, you're basically arguing semantics"
In response to Reply # 2
Sun Nov-07-10 04:30 PM by PimpMacula

  

          

6.
able to do something at will; at liberty: free to choose.
7.
clear of obstructions or obstacles, as a road or corridor: The highway is now free of fallen rock.
11.
provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment: free parking; a free sample.
12.
given without consideration of a return or reward: a free offer of legal advice.
29.
at liberty to enter and enjoy at will (usually fol. by of ): to be free of a friend's house.
36.
without cost, payment, or charge.


Just because something is breaking a law, doesn't change the definition of "free." If you transfer ownership of a tangible or intangible product to me to use at my own digression with no reciprocation of resources or services, I am obtaining it from you for FREE, irregardless of whatever means you used to initially obtain the product.

So, again, you're argument is one of semantics. But based on the definitions of "free" it seems to fit the bill.

Not really sure where you're finding fault with this concept.

  

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Ashley Ayers
Member since Dec 12th 2009
12331 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 04:35 PM

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13. "So basically you're argument that it's free because somebody else"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

stole it? and you're serious? Correct me if I'm wrong.

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 05:00 PM

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17. "see post 16"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

  

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disco dj
Charter member
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Sun Nov-07-10 04:42 PM

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15. "no. i'm not."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

you can post up definitions all day long. But bottom line, if you're receiving goods or services that have been offered up for sale, and you obtain these goods without paying, you're stealing, or at the very least in possession of stolen shit.


if you walk past a store with a broken lock, and help yourself to a pair of pants, are you NOT stealing? were those pants "free"?


same shit, playboy.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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PimpMacula
Member since Dec 19th 2006
12972 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 04:54 PM

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16. "RE: no. i'm not."
In response to Reply # 15
Sun Nov-07-10 05:03 PM by PimpMacula

  

          

>you can post up definitions all day long. But bottom line, if
>you're receiving goods or services that have been offered up
>for sale, and you obtain these goods without paying, you're
>stealing, or at the very least in possession of stolen shit.
>
>
>if you walk past a store with a broken lock, and help yourself
>to a pair of pants, are you NOT stealing? were those pants
>"free"?
>
>
>same shit, playboy.


I'm not arguing about whether or not it's "stealing"... technically it's stealing as I am transferring ownership of the intangible product without consent of the initial copyright holder or owner.

Regardless of this fact, it's still free, as I am transferring possession with no reciprocation of resources or services to the owner or file-host.

If the intangible product wasn't obtained for free, then at what cost to me was the product obtained? I am using the term "free" to refer to the cost (or expense) of exchange that was incurred to me, the exchangee.

IMO, the issue here is the fact that there's little to no inhibition on the part of the downloader. as it is so widespread and easy to do. also, the fact that when stealing intangible media, the original owner still maintains full ownership of his or her product, it just just being copied or cloned (therefore the law has a tougher time defining "theft" in this case).

People feel that there will be little to no consequence when obtaining illegal possession of intangible media. and in the overwhelming majority of incidences, there isn't.

People's willingness to abide by the law is directly related to their perceived odds of getting caught, and facing the consequences.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 06:59 PM

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38. "philosophically, this is huge"
In response to Reply # 16


          

"People feel that there will be little to no consequence when obtaining illegal possession of intangible media. and in the overwhelming majority of incidences, there isn't"

and is a major, MAJOR part of the "problem" of dling music

  

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simpsycho
Member since May 29th 2007
8056 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 05:33 PM

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20. "The pants were free if you didn't pay for them"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

The seller of the pants didn't intend for them to be free but they were.

  

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Orfeo_Negro
Member since Oct 24th 2004
20923 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 05:44 PM

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21. "You going into the store to take the pants"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

is considered forced entry, trespassing and burglary... even if the lock was broken.

But I don't think that's even an apt metaphor for what's going on with downloading. It's more like if a delivery truck carrying pants from the store exploded, spraying pants everywhere... and some of them just happened to land in front of your house.

You could pick up the pants, or you could ignore them. But if you do pick them up, did you steal them? I'm not sure... But they definitely are free.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Nov-07-10 06:51 PM

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34. "THERE IS NO ANALOGY"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I'm sorry but that's the biggest falacy of this whole debate, that there is something comparable to a digital copy of a non-physical item. There isn't. All this, walk into the store and steal, home invasion raping the kids while grandma shit is fucking spin at its worst because it confuses the issues so that no one knows what the fuck they are talking about.
________
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█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Nov-07-10 06:48 PM

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33. "You can't own no 1's & 0's!!!"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Abstract_TheEclectic_Nubian
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Mon Nov-08-10 01:40 AM

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77. "ain't no lock on the door playa"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

there's also no sales attendants to help you either. matter of fact, i didn't even walk past a store. It's actually more like walking around with a metal detector. is it my fault your ass was too lazy to dig up treasure in your own back yard?

╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮





www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

  

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Onassis
Member since Jul 02nd 2008
2825 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 02:37 PM

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3. "my question is"
In response to Reply # 1
Sun Nov-07-10 02:39 PM by Onassis

  

          

Why don't they (law enforcement) just shut down the Albumhunts & rapidshares of the world?
Why am I the problem if I'm just getting what someone else is offering?

I still support the artists I care about, but it ain't my fault if I found somebody's shit for the free

  

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disco dj
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Sun Nov-07-10 02:50 PM

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4. "i know you weren't asking me, but here's my thoughts..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Why don't they (law enforcement) just shut down the
>Albumhunts & rapidshares of the world?

probably because sites like Rapidshare and Zshare are meant for *file* sharing and backing up of files, not neccessarily MUSIC sharing. So, technically, there's nothing illegal about it. Kinda like how head shops sell Bongs and call it "Tobacco supplies", The Bong is legal, but filling it with Marijuana isn't.


> Why am I the problem if I'm just getting what someone else is
>offering?

because there's millions of people like you, which can translate into millions of people who aren't buying records.



>
>I still support the artists I care about, but it ain't my
>fault if I found somebody's shit for the free

no, but it's still a crime. Why can't you guys see that?


______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

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Onassis
Member since Jul 02nd 2008
2825 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 02:53 PM

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5. "I see it"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

it's the direct reason record companies no longer take risks & record stores have gone the way of the dinosaur. I TRY not to do it. Sometimes I break down LOL

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
1435 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 03:47 PM

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8. "'Cuz it's stolen goods..."
In response to Reply # 3


          

> Why am I the problem if I'm just getting what someone else is
>offering?
>

Even if we're not uploading files, someone else did without permission, and we're still taking it. So we're getting stolen goods.

It's the equivalent of "Fell off the back of the truck"...You know damn well Best Buys don't let your cousin Zagga Zow to take DVD players home to "test"...But you still hookin' that shit up to the 55in HDtv y'all "tested" two weeks ago.lol

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Nov-07-10 06:52 PM

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35. "The bootleg CD on the block is not stolen goods n/m"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
1435 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 07:23 PM

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44. "Of course to the people buying bootlegs it ain't "stolen"..."
In response to Reply # 35


          

But the bootlegger is taking a copyright protected work and copying and distributing the work for profit without the authorization of the original copyright holder, thus cutting said holder out of any financial gains/royalties. Perhaps the bootlegger legally purchased his own copy in the store, but once he begun making copies for distribution, he "packaged" copyrighted works he had no authorization to do so...

And what about recordings the artist/record label had no intentions of releasing, but still find their way into people's hands/hard drives, like live shows or demos? That is theft...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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50. "Perhaps the bootlegger is the label head's cousin n/m"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
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64. "lol. Then perhaps the label head needs to be investigated..."
In response to Reply # 50


          

'Cuz he's clearly trying to make some money on the side.lol

If it ain't on the books, them niggas is crooks...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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69. "or cooks"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

>If it ain't on the books, them niggas is crooks...

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
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11. "I don't understand this..."
In response to Reply # 1


          

>
>the dinosaur industry needs to stop wasting resources trying
>to make examples of common-folk and instead of punishing them,
>they need to recognize what these consumers want, how they
>consume media, and adapt their business model to accommodate
>it.
>
>

You make it sound so easy. Adapt the business model to accommodate theft? It's goods and services in exchange for money. Simple. If the artists and record companies can't make money from their goods they suffer. How many industries would crash and burn if people exercised their supposed "right" to things?

I'm telling you, the record industry is gonna start relying on advertising dollars like the tv and radio industries....And they're gonna start attaching Mickey D's commercials in between album cuts. That next Roots album is gonna be sponsored by Dodge Caravan and LusterSilk hair products.lol You think radio drops/DJ tags are annoying? See what happens when that "Na-Na-Na-NAPA Know How, NAPA Know How" song drops in during Erykah Badu's next single...

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
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Sun Nov-07-10 04:42 PM

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14. "RE: I don't understand this..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

that might not be so bad and it's probably the future, like watch ten minutes of commercials and then get this free album download. some of picassos best work was commissioned, but when you do that you run the risk of censorship like when rockefeller destroyed diego riveras mural cuz he thought it was communist

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
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18. "Yup..."
In response to Reply # 14


          

You're right, the artist would open themselves up to push-pull control issues with advertisers still needing to maintain product image.

  

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imcvspl
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37. "*cough* http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2450188
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
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62. "But there's a difference between being forced..."
In response to Reply # 37


          

...and being a willing participant in a Corporate partnership. Having no alternative, no option would be a problem, which is what I should have added above. "The add this or else" demand...

K'Naan on the other hand, was more than willing to hook up with Coke. And it looking at it now it's been more beneficial to him. The song was already out there, plus he used it previously during the drive for financial aid to Haiti. Coke didn't NEED him at all. It's Coke. Someone got the ides to use the song, reached out to him and got him involved. They could have just hired someone to make one of those "faux" or "fromage" songs that are supposed to sound sorta like the original...

I've never looked at artists having their music used in ads, movies, etc., as a terrible thing, especially if it creates new fans and introduces them to their old music.

  

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scorpion
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6. "we all know music aint free, however..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I dont agree with this punishment tactic....its killing an ant with a shotgun...

a kid who stole some jeans doesnt get 5 years in the fed pen...these people CANT pay the millions of dollars in restitution...so now what? do we throw them in the joint?...we barely have enough room in the joint for the murderers and rapists...so these are hollow victories...

a four figure restitution makes a lot more sense....its enough to make folks think twice but not clogging the legal system with endless appeals, etc because these folks dont have a few million to pay the RIAA for their duress...

yes, illegal downloading is a crime, but its like any other crime--not gonna stop anytime soon...

even if there were no way to download music illegally...folks would still trade music amongst themselves...that's been going on long before downloading...in the 80's, the dual cassette recorder allowed mad unauthorized duplication....same with VCRs....

most of the shit on youtube is unauthorized...songs, performances, etc...

we also have mixtapes and white labels...all illegal...

I think the industry, both artists and labels, need to focus on making the PRODUCT attractive to the consumer....people spend millions of dollars on bullshit erryday, recession or not...and when you look at the numbers, people still buy the shit they WANT TO buy...ask Taylor Swift or Lil Wayne...its the eternal business question--How can we make the consumer WANT to spend their money with us?

Speaking for myself, my problem is not with downloading per se but the mentality that folks HAVE THE RIGHT to download...people who are stupid and arrogant enough to think that its costs nothing to make music...

I'm on some James Brown shit--take some, leave some...these days, even artists you trust are out to fleece you *coughQuincycough* and we dont think about THAT enough...its okay for artists to rob fans with shitty albums, shitty performances, and shitty attitudes("dont like my new wack money grubbing music? youre a hater!!!)but its not okay to try before you buy?

one could say that back in the day, you didnt have a choice...if you wanted to check out new music you HAD to buy it...well, kinda...that was before the days of Viacom and Clear Channel...back then radio/video played whatever was interesting or had a buzz...now the consumer doesnt have a choice to pump it or dump it...you will hear/see only what these multimedia giants want you to hear and see...and youre going to hear it and see it INCESSANTLY until you like it...too oftenm what I hear from young people is, "we know this is garbage, but its what we have...."...THAT'S fucked up...go on you tube and pull up some old song then read the comments...people, young and old, are saying BRING THIS KIND OF MUSIC BACK...

the trust is gone...the relationship btwn the industry and the consumer is one-sided and abusive...a rebellion was inevitable...the industry so far has been unwilling to cater to the consumer...the bitterness and indifference will continue from comsumers if this does not change, on both a mainstream and indie level...

but on the consumer side...there's NO WAY your large collection of music should come from only illegal means...people need to be mindful that this is how some folks eat...you may not be sure about buying that new Jamiroquai album, but on the other hand, EVERY sale counts for some like Bilal(that kid just put out his SECOND record in 9 years because yall refused to lay your money down)...just be cognizant of that...that you can literally make or break an artist, that your selfishness can cause an artists to HAVE to close up shop...Jean Grae is living hand to mouth while Flo Rida is rolling in dough..that aint right...think to yourself just WHO youre throwing up that middle finger to---the industry or your favorite artist

In my opinion, if its an artist you aint sure about or the artist is inconsistent--give it a listen...if you like, gon head and lay that money down...and if the artist is someone that you are really into, you should most definitely BUY their album...and if the artist is independent, for God's sake tell a friend....youre not really a fan if you dont support...your sale is a vote for that artist...how will the industry know that you want more if you dont let them know that you want some in the first place?

this aint a cut and dry issue to me...its far too complex...Justin Bieber can take a hit, Quadron cant...there are too many variables...



*******
www.windimoto.com

  

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Orfeo_Negro
Member since Oct 24th 2004
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Sun Nov-07-10 03:33 PM

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7. "^^ sense & sensibility ^^"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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Taye DiggumSmacks
Member since Feb 17th 2010
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Sun Nov-07-10 04:04 PM

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9. "RE: we all know music aint free, however..."
In response to Reply # 6


          

>I dont agree with this punishment tactic....its killing an
>ant with a shotgun...
>
>a kid who stole some jeans doesnt get 5 years in the fed
>pen...these people CANT pay the millions of dollars in
>restitution...so now what? do we throw them in the joint?...we
>barely have enough room in the joint for the murderers and
>rapists...so these are hollow victories...
>
>a four figure restitution makes a lot more sense....its enough
>to make folks think twice but not clogging the legal system
>with endless appeals, etc because these folks dont have a few
>million to pay the RIAA for their duress...
>


This makes sense. The penalty would be realistic enough for the industry to actually collect, and hit the person's pockets, thus providing an example to others that they CAN truly be punished. That Akinyele "Vagina Diner" download ain't worth 7Gs...

  

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disco dj
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Sun Nov-07-10 04:34 PM

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12. "I agree in principle....BUT."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>I dont agree with this punishment tactic.

I do. this shit went to trial. She had THREE chances to settle for lesser amounts. But her lawyers wanted to make her into a Civic hero.


>
>a kid who stole some jeans doesnt get 5 years in the fed
>pen...these people CANT pay the millions of dollars in
>restitution...so now what?


Don't do the crime if you can't do the tiiiiiiiiiiiiime. (C) Sammy


do we throw them in the joint?...we
>barely have enough room in the joint for the murderers and
>rapists...so these are hollow victories...


c'mon man. That's bullshit. OBVIOUSLY some crimes are greater than others. It's not a hollow victory. It's breaking up criminal activity, are we as a society in a place to pick and choose which crimes we enforce? you on that Bunny Colvin right about now...
>
>a four figure restitution makes a lot more sense.


and they offered her a small settlement. But her lawyers tried to Shawn Fanning the situation. "FUCK that, your honor...our client is a HEROINE!!!! She ain't gon pay SHIT!!!!!"


...its enough
>to make folks think twice but not clogging the legal system
>with endless appeals, etc because these folks dont have a few
>million to pay the RIAA for their duress...

bingo.


>
>yes, illegal downloading is a crime, but its like any other
>crime--not gonna stop anytime soon...
>


true.


>even if there were no way to download music illegally...folks
>would still trade music amongst themselves...that's been going
>on long before downloading...in the 80's, the dual cassette
>recorder allowed mad unauthorized duplication....same with
>VCRs....
>


which is why artists make royalties on blank media.

>
>we also have mixtapes and white labels...all illegal...

again, you speak truth.


>
>I think the industry, both artists and labels, need to focus
>on making the PRODUCT attractive to the consumer....people
>spend millions of dollars on bullshit erryday, recession or
>not...and when you look at the numbers, people still buy the
>shit they WANT TO buy...ask Taylor Swift or Lil Wayne...its
>the eternal business question--How can we make the consumer
>WANT to spend their money with us?

I think that's irrelevant, and people who say they download because of the lack of quality are full of shit. Am I supposed to believe they buy "good" stuff, but decide not to pay for marginal ones? Really?



>
>Speaking for myself, my problem is not with downloading per se
>but the mentality that folks HAVE THE RIGHT to
>download...people who are stupid and arrogant enough to think
>that its costs nothing to make music...


Testify, brother.



>
>I'm on some James Brown shit--take some, leave some...these
>days, even artists you trust are out to fleece you
>*coughQuincycough* and we dont think about THAT enough...its
>okay for artists to rob fans with shitty albums, shitty
>performances, and shitty attitudes("dont like my new wack
>money grubbing music? youre a hater!!!)but its not okay to try
>before you buy?


listening stations, man. AND let's be real. There's a lot of shit we should KNOW to stay away from,F'rill. we have to download a T-Pain cut to find out that it sucks?


>.you will hear/see only what
>these multimedia giants want you to hear and see...and youre
>going to hear it and see it INCESSANTLY until you like
>it.


Dog. As many conversations as you and I have had about new music, you're HONESTLY Typing this shit?

Did the Multimedia Giants put you on to Jazzanova? What about Studio Apartment? Owusu and Hannibal? oh...we went out and found them.



..too oftenm what I hear from young people is, "we know
>this is garbage, but its what we have...."...THAT'S fucked
>up...go on you tube and pull up some old song then read the
>comments...people, young and old, are saying BRING THIS KIND
>OF MUSIC BACK...


>
>the trust is gone...the relationship btwn the industry and the
>consumer is one-sided and abusive...a rebellion was
>inevitable...the industry so far has been unwilling to cater
>to the consumer...the bitterness and indifference will
>continue from comsumers if this does not change, on both a
>mainstream and indie level...


true.
>
>but on the consumer side...there's NO WAY your large
>collection of music should come from only illegal
>means...people need to be mindful that this is how some folks
>eat...you may not be sure about buying that new Jamiroquai
>album, but on the other hand, EVERY sale counts for some like
>Bilal(that kid just put out his SECOND record in 9 years
>because yall refused to lay your money down)...just be
>cognizant of that...that you can literally make or break an
>artist, that your selfishness can cause an artists to HAVE to
>close up shop...Jean Grae is living hand to mouth while Flo
>Rida is rolling in dough..that aint right...think to yourself
>just WHO youre throwing up that middle finger to---the
>industry or your favorite artist


agreed.


>
>In my opinion, if its an artist you aint sure about or the
>artist is inconsistent--give it a listen...if you like, gon
>head and lay that money down...and if the artist is someone
>that you are really into, you should most definitely BUY their
>album...and if the artist is independent, for God's sake tell
>a friend....youre not really a fan if you dont support...your
>sale is a vote for that artist...how will the industry know
>that you want more if you dont let them know that you want
>some in the first place?
>
>this aint a cut and dry issue to me...its far too
>complex...Justin Bieber can take a hit, Quadron cant...there
>are too many variables...
>
>

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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scorpion
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Sun Nov-07-10 05:52 PM

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22. "I agree w/punishment, but to clarify..."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>>I dont agree with this punishment tactic.
>
>I do. this shit went to trial. She had THREE chances to settle
>for lesser amounts. But her lawyers wanted to make her into a
>Civic hero.

Her argument is "I didnt do it" not "I did it but I dont wanna pay" thus her refusal to pay anything...

I wouldnt wanna pay a red cent for some shit I didnt do, either...whether or not did it, who knows...

I wouldnt rule it out that she didnt do it...I can testify personally. If you rmbr Comcast accused me of doing some shit I didnt do and suspended my internet for a year...so they can suck it FOR LIFE...Comcast will NEVER see a thin DIME from me as long as I live and breathe....

For the record, I think a $5,000 fine is fair...


>>a kid who stole some jeans doesnt get 5 years in the fed
>>pen...these people CANT pay the millions of dollars in
>>restitution...so now what?
>
>
>Don't do the crime if you can't do the tiiiiiiiiiiiiime. (C)
>Sammy


That's way too easy...especially looking at the American justice system through a Black man's eyes...make the punishment fit the crime...

>do we throw them in the joint?...we
>>barely have enough room in the joint for the murderers and
>>rapists...so these are hollow victories...
>
>
>c'mon man. That's bullshit. OBVIOUSLY some crimes are greater
>than others. It's not a hollow victory. It's breaking up
>criminal activity, are we as a society in a place to pick and
>choose which crimes we enforce? you on that Bunny Colvin right
>about now...

Nowhere did I say let folks off the hook...what Im saying is be realistic...A)NObody is going to jail behind this shit and B) the RIAA is NEVER gonna collect that type of money, period. so these exorbitant judgements dont really do any good...


>which is why artists make royalties on blank media.

its an option....you dont get it automatically, you have to opt-in...most artists dont know WHAT to ask for in a contract, much less the blank media option...and in the end, the money made from that option in miniscule...you MIGHT be able to buy a sandwich with it...

>>I think the industry, both artists and labels, need to focus
>>on making the PRODUCT attractive to the consumer....people
>>spend millions of dollars on bullshit erryday, recession or
>>not...and when you look at the numbers, people still buy the
>>shit they WANT TO buy...ask Taylor Swift or Lil Wayne...its
>>the eternal business question--How can we make the consumer
>>WANT to spend their money with us?
>
>I think that's irrelevant, and people who say they download
>because of the lack of quality are full of shit. Am I supposed
>to believe they buy "good" stuff, but decide not to pay for
>marginal ones? Really?


is that really a far-fetched notion? that a shitty album aint worth your money? and to say that anyone whose ever downloaded music is has no respect for music, wants to get over, and is a filthy scumbag is a bit cut and dry...I can say that with certainty because the majority of us have partaken in pirated media in some way shape form or fashion...again, every time we look at you tube, we're partaking in pirated media...

if you've pulled an image from Google, the photographer/artist might not have authorized that...alot of us didnt buy this copy of Windows were using right now...none of our hands are clean enough to make that judgement


>>I'm on some James Brown shit--take some, leave some...these
>>days, even artists you trust are out to fleece you
>>*coughQuincycough* and we dont think about THAT enough...its
>>okay for artists to rob fans with shitty albums, shitty
>>performances, and shitty attitudes("dont like my new wack
>>money grubbing music? youre a hater!!!)but its not okay to
>try
>>before you buy?
>
>
>listening stations, man. AND let's be real. There's a lot of
>shit we should KNOW to stay away from,F'rill. we have to
>download a T-Pain cut to find out that it sucks?


Snippets and listening stations are the dental dams of music...sure, it sounds good in theory, but who REALLY uses it like that?...are there listening stations for every album we might be interested in? will we really listen to the entire record at a listening station...how many record stores HAVE listening stations?...how many actual record stores are left????

When a friend wants you to check out some music, do they say "hey Ima play 30 secs of each song for you...if you like it, go buy it..."

nah, they let you hold the record....

the T Pain example is neither here nor there, just because you and I dont think his music is worth anything, even HE had to pay somn to make it and he's entitled to recoup his investment and sell his shitty wares to whoever wants them...

WE personally struggle with this ourselves...we get dismissed because so many ppl think dance/house music is noisy Euro music for gays only....and the only way to convince folks otherwise is to have them listen and let the music speak for itself....


>>.you will hear/see only what
>>these multimedia giants want you to hear and see...and youre
>>going to hear it and see it INCESSANTLY until you like
>>it.
>
>
>Dog. As many conversations as you and I have had about new
>music, you're HONESTLY Typing this shit?
>
>Did the Multimedia Giants put you on to Jazzanova? What about
>Studio Apartment? Owusu and Hannibal? oh...we went out and
>found them.

Again...we've had this convo...the average music consumer is NOT like us...we are a minority like a mofo...music is not even secondary to MOST people, its an afterthought...people dont even know the names of their favorite songs("I LOVE Track 6!!!")...even in the good ol days, people were ill-informed abt music because they just dont care that much...seriously, most ppl didnt know that MJ wrote his own songs until he died and he was the most successful artist EVER...very few ppl connected the dots and realized Prince was behind The Time...3 more words: Victor St. Clair...most people dont even know how music is MADE("what's a hi-hat?")

most people buy what theyre exposed to...somewhere some dude is drinking a Budweiser because he doesnt know Kirin exists...and that's the industry's real job--to make people aware of the music that's out there...but today, instead they only make ppl aware of what they want them to buy, all other artists be damned...



*******
www.windimoto.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 06:45 PM

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31. "If you have ONE hi-speed dub cassette in your crib... n/m"
In response to Reply # 12
Sun Nov-07-10 06:46 PM by imcvspl

  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 07:38 PM

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52. "that was ONE of my points..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

he who is without sin...

the vast majority of us have participated in pirated media in some way...

I have yet to meet someone who hasnt...

except me. *looks into camera*

LOL.

*******
www.windimoto.com

  

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bluetiger
Charter member
36728 posts
Mon Nov-08-10 01:18 AM

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76. "I'm saying....."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

spoofing all kinds of things isn't unheard of.
she may be completely innocent.
the courts and the law aren't exactly tech savvy at all.

that said: the RIAA needs to not attack consumers; rather they should find the sources of the leaks. make that a bigger issue.

don't be fkn evil.

  

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Coco la chapelle
Member since Sep 17th 2006
3019 posts
Mon Nov-08-10 08:19 AM

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83. "that was a good answer"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


>one could say that back in the day, you didnt have a
>choice...if you wanted to check out new music you HAD to buy
>it...well, kinda...that was before the days of Viacom and
>Clear Channel...back then radio/video played whatever was
>interesting or had a buzz...now the consumer doesnt have a
>choice to pump it or dump it...

And that's a good thing !
I know The Lesson said no analogy but I never buy clothes without trying them on. Music is an interesting market where the consumer can actually decide with all the information that he needs, whether or not he's willing to pay for a product. IMO no-one should pay for something without knowing if it's going to satisfy their need. Illegal dls, and legal streaming could have reinforced the link between the quality of the product, its capacity to fulfill desires and sales.
But people don't get sample or time-limited access to the music. Once they got it for free, there is only a couple of reason for them to buy the actual CD : they like the physical product, they think mp3 does not sound pure or they want to support the artist. Instead of trying to stop illegal dls, labels should just focus their strain on finding more reason for people to buy and support the artists even if they could get the tracks for free. This industry seems focused on law and contracts, it needs to start to be creative.

>the trust is gone...the relationship btwn the industry and the
>consumer is one-sided and abusive...a rebellion was
>inevitable...the industry so far has been unwilling to cater
>to the consumer...the bitterness and indifference will
>continue from comsumers if this does not change, on both a
>mainstream and indie level...

Yep

  

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Ishwip
Member since Jun 10th 2005
19966 posts
Wed Nov-10-10 02:56 PM

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107. "RE: we all know music aint free, however..."
In response to Reply # 6


          

>my problem is not with downloading per se
>but the mentality that folks HAVE THE RIGHT to
>download...people who are stupid and arrogant enough to think
>that its costs nothing to make music...

Yes.....

>but on the consumer side...there's NO WAY your large
>collection of music should come from only illegal
>means...people need to be mindful that this is how some folks
>eat...you may not be sure about buying that new Jamiroquai
>album, but on the other hand, EVERY sale counts for some like
>Bilal(that kid just put out his SECOND record in 9 years
>because yall refused to lay your money down)...just be
>cognizant of that...that you can literally make or break an
>artist, that your selfishness can cause an artists to HAVE to
>close up shop...Jean Grae is living hand to mouth while Flo
>Rida is rolling in dough..that aint right...think to yourself
>just WHO youre throwing up that middle finger to---the
>industry or your favorite artist

...sir...

>youre not really a fan if you dont support...your
>sale is a vote for that artist...how will the industry know
>that you want more if you dont let them know that you want
>some in the first place?

...reeeee

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

  

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simpsycho
Member since May 29th 2007
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19. "Who still thinks the laws about this are bullshit?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Up to $150,000 a song? How about we make jaywalking a felony and start executing people for speeding?

  

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denny
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23. "RE: So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Illegally downloading music is not theft. NOONE has been charged with 'theft' for file-sharing...they've only been charged with 'copywrite infringement' which is a completely different charge.

The Theft Act of 1968 in English law states

"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". (Section 1)

The key here is that file-sharing does not 'deprive the rightful owner of their property'. Cause when you download a file...you are not denying the use of that file from the owner.

Not really debateable....the proof is in the pudding. NOONE HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH THEFT FOR ILLEGALLY DOWNLOADING.

It's copywrite infringement...and it has only been charged to those that either share and/or upload the content which is clearly illegal. In fact, I'm pretty sure that exclusively downloading material is not even technically illegal. It's only illegal if someone gets the material from YOU.

Can anyone confirm that for me.....the uploader/sharer is guilty of copywrite infringement but the downloader is not?

  

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scorpion
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24. "semantics."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Im selling somn.

You got it, but didnt pay for it.

You wrong.

the rest is just word salad...

*******
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denny
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25. "RE: semantics."
In response to Reply # 24


          

Uhhhh....The law is built from semantics.

We don't simply lump together all 'wrong' things as a crime. We differentiate between different kinds of crime for good reason.

  

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scorpion
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27. "does it matter, though?"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

downloading music you didnt buy is a crime...we CAN debate the severity of the crime and the punishment...but debating whether illegally obtained goods is theft or not seems like a waste of time.

*******
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denny
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28. "Yes it matters."
In response to Reply # 27
Sun Nov-07-10 06:46 PM by denny

          

The laws/penalties differ with 'theft' and 'copywrite infringement'. Big implications.

If you want to call it theft than by all means. But it wouldn't stand up in court.

And see post 29. Downloading is not illegal in Canada. I'm still not sure if it is in the US.

  

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imcvspl
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32. "Don't let me find a VHS tape with a Super Bowl on it n/m"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

________
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Orfeo_Negro
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26. "I think the sharer is the guilty one."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Which is why that time OiNK got busted, the news reports made such a big deal about the community's insidious ratio requirements, which mandated that the downloaders willingly implicate themselves in the criminal activity by regularly sharing a certain amount every month or risk being expelled from using the site.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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denny
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29. "From the little research I've done..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

In Canada it is NOT illegal to download pirated material. It is obviously illegal to upload/share pirated material.

But apparently, we've gone a step further now. I don't use this sites like Limewire and Piratebay....but apparently if you download a file it can then be downloaded from you by other users. In this sense, you are unwittingly 'sharing' the file and have now committed an illegal act.

So Canada has set a new precedent in regards to this:

"The mere fact of placing a copy on a shared directory in a computer where that copy can be accessed via a P2P service does not amount to distribution. Before it constitutes distribution, there must be a positive act by the owner of the shared directory, such as sending out the copies or advertising that they are available for copying."

So you're not even guilty of copywrite infringement if people are copying illegal files from you without a clear 'EFFORT' made by you to distribute material. That means Joe Blow at home who only downloads files from Limewire is not guilty of anything illegal in Canada.

  

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imcvspl
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30. ""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Let's be brutally honest:

Complaining about illegal downloads is boring and no longer relevant. This is only relevant because the courts like the major labels are years behind the times, and so they are just now getting to a ruling which really won't be official for another couple of years after all the appeals have processed.

But right now, nobody gives a fuck. Illegal downloads are an accepted norm, by the artists and the labels (i don't really care about the majors so that there means indies who arguably are hit harder than the majors). The smart labels (aka not the majors) have revised all of their numbers and adjusted to allow for downloads. They are now releasing material which they stand behind as compelling enough to get an illegal downloader to purchase. The ratio is small but achievable, and enough to get the label recouped, the artist and the road and true fans happy.

To still be engaging in this conversation is exactly what the RIAA and their backers need you to do to make it seem like it's relevant but its not.
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LucidDreamer85
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36. ""
In response to Reply # 30


          

It's not free, but no song is singally worth $62,000.....

Cd's are only 15-20 $ ....that is like a dollar a song.

  

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disco dj
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42. "i think the price comes from the amount of people who got it."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>It's not free, but no song is singally worth $62,000.....
>


like, had they pulled numbers and only, say 150 people had downloaded it, then the original fine might've been a lot less.


>Cd's are only 15-20 $ ....that is like a dollar a song.

Well then why don't people buy shit on iTunes, and render this whole argument null and void?


______________



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http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

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kayru99
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39. "I've had engineering/production gigs with acts -"
In response to Reply # 30


          

major acts with a ton of loot - who needed to sample a sound, or a song to finish a track

fire up the mac and download a syl johnson album, or a prince record, or whatever.

Hell, I've seen cats download a VSTI in session at a studio to finish a track, lol

Unless some major changes occur in ISPs (which is possible, but would fuck a ton of LEGIT money), the genies ain't goin back in the bottle

  

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disco dj
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43. "^^dry snitching^^^"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>major acts with a ton of loot - who needed to sample a sound,
>or a song to finish a track
>
>fire up the mac and download a syl johnson album, or a prince
>record, or whatever.
>
>Hell, I've seen cats download a VSTI in session at a studio to
>finish a track, lol
>


stop snitchin' dunnie. lol.


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kayru99
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51. "not even"
In response to Reply # 43


          

just making a point that even cats who make damn near all their money from selling music, "steal" music

Its a foregone conclusion

Hell, the ONLY reason Logic is in every studio these days is because of how bootleggable it is without the dongle

  

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disco dj
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55. "i'm just givin' you shit, man. It's all jokes..."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

.

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imcvspl
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57. "Logic is an amazing example"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

The only music software that was UNPIRATEABLE because of the dongle in earlier versions. Then they lost the dongle making it a illegally available software which did what, spiked their margin of the DAW market, increased sales, and solidified them as the second standard in the PROFESSIONAL studio environment (they were there before but it wasn't a done deal until they got their numbers up).
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kayru99
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67. "also, it definitely boosted the sales of macs substantially"
In response to Reply # 57


          



  

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disco dj
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41. "where are you getting this from?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


>
>But right now, nobody gives a fuck. Illegal downloads are an
>accepted norm, by the artists and the labels (i don't really
>care about the majors so that there means indies who arguably
>are hit harder than the majors).

I don't think they're "accepted". There's just next to nothing anybody can do about it. Nobody in the business "Accepts" losing product to piracy. It happens, and it's almost impossible to stop. But it's not by any means "Accepted", I don't think.

The smart labels (aka not
>the majors) have revised all of their numbers and adjusted to
>allow for downloads.


Where are you getting this? I think they acknowledge that once a record is released it's "out there" ( as we on OKP say), but they haven't adjusted any numbers to compensate for it. Where is this coming from?


They are now releasing material which
>they stand behind as compelling enough to get an illegal
>downloader to purchase.

you're implying that indie labels are inherently better than the majors. Let's not forget that there a lot of shitty music being released independently too.

The ratio is small but achievable,
>and enough to get the label recouped, the artist and the road
>and true fans happy.

again, i'd like to see where this is coming from.


>
>To still be engaging in this conversation is exactly what the
>RIAA and their backers need you to do to make it seem like
>it's relevant but its not.


sure it is. The fact that we're all in here having this conversation makes it so.

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imcvspl
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47. ""Projected Illegal Downloads" is on spreadsheets fam"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Being used to calculate risks when determining how many physical units to press up. That is an accepted norm.

>I don't think they're "accepted". There's just next to nothing
>anybody can do about it. Nobody in the business "Accepts"
>losing product to piracy. It happens, and it's almost
>impossible to stop. But it's not by any means "Accepted", I
>don't think.

When labels are 'servicing' the leading sources for 'illegal' downloads they are accepting them as a part of their business model.

>Where are you getting this? I think they acknowledge that once
>a record is released it's "out there" ( as we on OKP say), but
>they haven't adjusted any numbers to compensate for it. Where
>is this coming from?

Yes they have. There's nothing I could post here to prove that to you, but trust me they have.

> They are now releasing material which
>>they stand behind as compelling enough to get an illegal
>>downloader to purchase.
>
>you're implying that indie labels are inherently better than
>the majors. Let's not forget that there a lot of shitty music
>being released independently too.

Let's not move the goal posts to talk about quality. But I won't pretend like all indies are successful either. That said pulling that part of what I said out to say I'm implying indies are better than majors is interesting. Because if you read that regardless of personal preferences toward music, it is a smarter way of doing business in the current climate. You know people are going to illegally download so you as a label quality control your music to make it purchase worthy to your target demographic. Indie labels are doing this. If major labels are not (they aren't) then yes the indies are better than the majors in this climate.

> The ratio is small but achievable,
>>and enough to get the label recouped, the artist and the
>road
>>and true fans happy.
>
>again, i'd like to see where this is coming from.

Again I wouldn't be at liberty to post anything in the form of proof but have a garner at this clip - http://vimeo.com/15507911 These are heads of indie labels talking. One you'll note is the cat from Ghostly. Pay attention to what he says about being more comfortable in today's climate.

>sure it is. The fact that we're all in here having this
>conversation makes it so.

No it's not. Only reason I'm in here is as a friend trying to help you get over it. No snark.

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3d1gg4
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40. "today's musicians shouldn't waste their time complaining about piracy"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Nov-07-10 07:29 PM by 3d1gg4

  

          

if you don't want to see your music get the treatment
stop recording and stick to playing live and start earning your pittance every day

musicians have had it easy for way too long. time to get a real 9 to 5 like everybody else
not even gonna start on record companies

they are destined to disappear in this digital age. sorry but it's just the way it is

those who will adapt are those who actually deserve to be artists and make a living off of it

the bullshit shall be filtered out

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

  

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scorpion
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45. "this reply was just dumb...."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          


*******
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3d1gg4
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49. "since you're so smart"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

care to explain what is dumb and regarding what ?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

  

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Orfeo_Negro
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53. "It is dumb. I don't think it even needs any explanation."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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3d1gg4
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56. "dumb for who ?"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

why is it dumb

it should be easy to explain as it is to say it's dumb


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

  

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Orfeo_Negro
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59. "it is easy to explain but why bother?"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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scorpion
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54. "funny you should ask...."
In response to Reply # 49
Sun Nov-07-10 07:44 PM by scorpion

  

          

>>if you don't want to see your music get the treatment
>>stop recording and stick to playing live and start earning your >>pittance every day

let's say you want to make a living as a musician by playing live...without records, how will a promoter or booking agent know what you sound like?

how will they know how many people you are likely to draw or how large your fan base is?

>>musicians have had it easy for way too long. time to get a real 9 >>to 5 like everybody else
>>not even gonna start on record companies

Making music is easy? have you done it? what's easy about it?

>>they are destined to disappear in this digital age. sorry but it's just the way it is

who will service the consumer with music if there are no labels? who will service the record stores? how will artists reach consumers who are not tech savvy or dont own a computer or have internet sevice?

>>those who will adapt are those who actually deserve to be artists >>and make a living off of it

>>the bullshit shall be filtered out

Who will make music if there is no money to be made and they all get a 9 to 5, as you suggest?..

You spoke before you thought, mayne....

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imcvspl
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58. "just cause i'm in a contrarian mood"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>let's say you want to make a living as a musician by playing
>live...without records, how will a promoter or booking agent
>know what you sound like?

Join the local musicians union.

>how will they know how many people you are likely to draw or
>how large your fan base is?

Won't matter if you've joined the union.

>Making music is easy? have you done it? what's easy about it?

I think he was referring to the accepted rape artists used to be able to endure because of the promise of things like advances which allowed them to not have to go 'work for their pittance'

>>>they are destined to disappear in this digital age. sorry
>but it's just the way it is
>
>who will service the consumer with music if there are no
>labels?

Bandcamp broke Billboard this year. I'm just saying...

> who will service the record stores?

LOL @ Record stores. I know it's not funny but LOL anyway.

>how will artists
>reach consumers who are not tech savvy or dont own a computer
>or have internet sevice?

You think those people have access to a record store?

>Who will make music if there is no money to be made and they
>all get a 9 to 5, as you suggest?..

Anyone making music for money shouldn't have been making it in the first place, but I digress.

________
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█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

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Orfeo_Negro
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60. "You really believe this hippie b.s.?"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          


>Anyone making music for money shouldn't have been making it in
>the first place, but I digress.

________________

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imcvspl
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61. "People think I'm joking when I say I'm an art evangelist"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

But I'm dead ass serious. God is creation. You can't get no closer to god than through art (of course I'm using god loosely). So you can read that like a christian saying anyone that gets into the ministry for the money.... (you'll note how that parallel works really well)

And don't call me no fucking hippie.
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Orfeo_Negro
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63. "Funny thing is that I am also an art evangelist."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

But I do realize that the artist has to eat and keep the lights on in order to channel God's Glory Through Their Body and Mind.

By the same token, I don't begrudge ministers making a living while doing God's Work either.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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70. "$ can be a reason to _make_ art but not to *make* art"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

seen?
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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3d1gg4
Member since Jan 12th 2010
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Sun Nov-07-10 08:29 PM

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66. "no industry"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>>>if you don't want to see your music get the treatment
>>>stop recording and stick to playing live and start earning
>your >>pittance every day
>
>let's say you want to make a living as a musician by playing
>live...without records, how will a promoter or booking agent
>know what you sound like?
>
>how will they know how many people you are likely to draw or
>how large your fan base is?
the underlying idea of course is to free musicians from the so called record industry and consequently change the way music is being "consumed" in today's society.
no more records.
sounds like some communist shit right ?

sike. make records if you want but don't make your livelihood depend on them because it'll get pirated.
a system will have to be figured out so that livelihood remain in control of the artist.
yes that would mean less wannabe musicians, less money to be made, less garbage on the radio, less ipods, less internet, more time for people to live with each other or actually play music just for the hell of it


>
>>>musicians have had it easy for way too long. time to get a
>real 9 >>to 5 like everybody else
>>>not even gonna start on record companies
>
>Making music is easy? have you done it? what's easy about it?
>
I like to believe it is once you're good at it. becoming good of course isn't necessarily

>>>they are destined to disappear in this digital age. sorry
>but it's just the way it is
>
>who will service the consumer with music if there are no
>labels? who will service the record stores? how will artists
>reach consumers who are not tech savvy or dont own a computer
>or have internet sevice?
>
>>>those who will adapt are those who actually deserve to be
>artists >>and make a living off of it
>
>>>the bullshit shall be filtered out
>
>Who will make music if there is no money to be made and they
>all get a 9 to 5, as you suggest?..
>
>You spoke before you thought, mayne....
>
>*******
>www.windimoto.com
already covered above

no hippie

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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74. "you're an idiot. "
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

  

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3d1gg4
Member since Jan 12th 2010
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79. "tu mado ?"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

  

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scorpion
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46. "and who punishes the labels that leak their own shit?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

EVERY major release gets "leaked" these days....often exactly one week before the release date...

in this age of downloading, security cant be that damn lax...

its simply part of the promotion plan now...

so is the RIAA going to sue and fine the major labels as well?

*******
www.windimoto.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Nov-07-10 07:34 PM

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48. "They would never do that n/m"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Coco la chapelle
Member since Sep 17th 2006
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Mon Nov-08-10 07:20 AM

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81. "conflict of interest "
In response to Reply # 46
Mon Nov-08-10 07:28 AM by Coco la chapelle

  

          

RIAA = labels
And why would you punish a brand for giving samples as a marketing strategy ?
Or maybe you're talking about those Joi/Bilal type of leaks ...

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Sun Nov-07-10 08:18 PM

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65. "what ppl never mention is how money makes music"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

its what allows people have a career in music
if the money isn't there, they'll do something else with their lives

sure you'll always have some people who get obsessive and prolific about a *hobby*, and there's a tiny chance that one of them might be a genius artist, but the net creativity is nothing compared to a vibrant industry

more money = more people doing it = more chance of great art being created

if you don't believe me just watch the next ten, twenty years. music will become obsolete ©k.orr

the hidden cost of 'free music' is all the music that will never be

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Sun Nov-07-10 08:37 PM

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68. "interesting, but i completely disagree"
In response to Reply # 65


          

more music is being made, because the tools to make them are freely available. Now, there'll be less POP music perhaps, or maybe what is considered POP will change...but music will always be, whether a music industry exists or not

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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71. "music will exist, but only as a bunch of amateurs"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

with the occasional eccentric genius
instead of existing as many talented professionals with many more geniuses cropping up (and getting paid)

the whole 'music will never die' argument completely overlooks the issue of quality and talent

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Coco la chapelle
Member since Sep 17th 2006
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Mon Nov-08-10 07:14 AM

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80. "whatever dude"
In response to Reply # 71
Mon Nov-08-10 07:14 AM by Coco la chapelle

  

          

There is a all bunch of professional players who have nothing to do with the music industry, just go to your local jazz club ...

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
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Mon Nov-08-10 03:32 PM

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87. "Yeah and what's the average age of those dudes"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

And how does that average change year on year

Besides jazz will be ok, and to an extent classical, they always revolved round live performance

What will go down the drain is quality popular music, because it depends primarily on songwriting, and the batting average for great songs is so astronomically low, the only way to keep a healthy supply going is to have TONS of people taking a serious shot at it. A few open mic nights per city isn't going to cut it

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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Coco la chapelle
Member since Sep 17th 2006
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88. " I agree"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

Yeah and what's the average age of those dudes
>And how does that average change year on year
>

You're probably right but who knows ?

I was in a jam session on sunday, it was full of people from my generation (mid 80's) wich some serious musical chops, some of these cats tour with recording artists. There are a lot of young and gifted musicians and singer out here ... I don't think the health of the music industry is affecting their talent. A lot of incredible talents stay under the radar, it has always been like that in every fields.

>Besides jazz will be ok, and to an extent classical, they
>always revolved round live performance
>
>What will go down the drain is quality popular music, because
>it depends primarily on songwriting, and the batting average
>for great songs is so astronomically low, the only way to keep
>a healthy supply going is to have TONS of people taking a
>serious shot at it. A few open mic nights per city isn't going
>to cut it

I agree

  

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Dj Joey Joe
Member since Sep 01st 2007
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Sun Nov-07-10 09:16 PM

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72. "This Is The Part That Seems So Wrong & Infamous About The Situation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>The RIAA rejected the reduced penalty for legal reasons.
>But the industry group said it would settle for $25,000,
>with the money going to a charity for struggling musicians.

Suuuuurrrrreeeee it does, we all know that none of the money the RIAA has been recieving for mad years has been going to anyone but them & to keep their employees with a job, music lawyers, & record labels paid but not to actual artists they suppose to be collecting money for.


Anyway, I do feel that the cost of making music is far from being free but obtaining it can be, do I download music without paying for it, hells yeah all the time but if I truely like something then I will go out and buy a physical copy of it either on cd or vinyl; but I will NEVER pay for digital downloading of music.


https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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The Letter L
Member since Apr 21st 2008
590 posts
Sun Nov-07-10 09:42 PM

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73. "technology fucked the record industry"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

chasing illegal downloads/uploads is futile.
new/old artist need to accept, adjust, adapt and quit cryin.
you cant justify copyright infringement
but u also cant close pandoras box which is file sharing.
record labels/artist simply need to realize ur gonna have to work even harder and smarter to make a living at this shit now.
the internet gave the consumer more power.
so ur shit has to be really worthwhile to spend money on now
it should push a artist to be more creative
but most wanna whine and be lazy.

  

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SP1200
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Sun Nov-07-10 10:35 PM

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75. "This poast seems a bit out of touch famb."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The RIAA doesn't even work for artists or indies, they work for major labels (who steal from artists the most). Hence why she only got sued for certain songs. So this has nothing to do with you or me (indie artists).

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Mon Nov-08-10 02:17 AM

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78. "Leaving out moral judgements and personal biases......."
In response to Reply # 0


          

There's alot of misinformation in this thread. I also think the RIAA has spread untrue information throughout the internet. I didn't know much about the legalities of this issue before tonight and am still not an expert but.....

To address the post head-on....it would seem that pirated music IS available for free on the internet and it's not illegal to download it in Europe, Canada or any of the states in the US that I've come across.

In regards to the case cited in the original post.....The defendant is not being sued for downloading the pirated material for there is no such charge existing. They are being sued for sharing it/providing access to it for other users.

This is a very important distinction and shows why one can get sued $60,000 for one song. If the song is available for a $1.00 payment and 60000 people get it from you for free....in most states you're on the hook for $60000. If the actual act of downloading were illegal...you could only get sued the $1.00 payment that you avoided.

In Canada, we've made the legal distinction between 'unknowingly' providing pirated material to downloaders and 'knowingly' providing access. This distinction has not been made in the States and is the reason common people are getting sued for outrageous amounts.

As it stands now....the pirated music one downloads is both 'free' and 'legal' so long as they do not provide access to it for other users. The RIAA cannot resort to any other charge such as 'possession of stolen property' because pirated music cannot be defined as 'stolen property'. The rightful owners of the material have not been legally denied the use of their property.

In short...it would seem as though at this present time, music is indeed, free.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Nov-08-10 08:26 AM

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84. "^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃

Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
Music Beef Done Right - http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2010/10/listen-red-bulls-culture-clash-g

  

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Coco la chapelle
Member since Sep 17th 2006
3019 posts
Mon Nov-08-10 07:23 AM

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82. "Im pretty sure this person is being sued for sharing music not dling"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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WaxLablTabler
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Mon Nov-08-10 01:16 PM

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85. "Re-examine "money"."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________________

be Good.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2n8vg29.png
(by a guy named Wes Whaley http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturepicturegalleries/8779317/Light-paintings-by-Wes-Whaley.html )

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Nov-08-10 01:41 PM

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86. "it's not my problem/i don't care/it is free."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Nov-08-10 01:53 PM by SoWhat

  

          

the only reason i go to Jewel and pay $2 for a loaf of Wonder bread is b/c i don't know a place where i can go get Wonder bread or a nearly-identical copy of Wonder bread for free. if i could get it for free there's no way i'd pay for it. i don't feel any obligation to the makers of Wonder bread. i don't feel like it's my responsibility to make sure the ppl who make Wonder bread are paid.

Jewel understands this which is why its stores have theft-prevention devices and staff. the makers of Wonder bread understand this too which is why it has a tightly controlled distribution network.

the music industry somehow fails to understand this basic reality. and it's not my problem. i don't care if acts are not getting paid b/c the makers of music product don't understand the need for control over the means of distribution that would keep me and ppl like me from having access to free copies of the music we want. as far as i'm concerned, music is free. it won't be free when i can no longer access good copies of the music i want. at that point i'll resume paying for music.

fuck you.

  

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disco dj
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Mon Nov-08-10 07:47 PM

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91. "I can dig that, BUT."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

>the only reason i go to Jewel and pay $2 for a loaf of Wonder
>bread is b/c i don't know a place where i can go get Wonder
>bread or a nearly-identical copy of Wonder bread for free. if
>i could get it for free there's no way i'd pay for it. i
>don't feel any obligation to the makers of Wonder bread. i
>don't feel like it's my responsibility to make sure the ppl
>who make Wonder bread are paid.
>

Are you a self-proclaimed "Fan" of Wonder Bread?

That's part of the problem with that analogy. Everything you typed is pretty much spot on ( to some degree), but you grew up listening to, and anticipating new works from your favorite artists. Don't you feel some loyalty to THEM? Fuck all this talk of "Business models" and how "The industry failed to adapt". Just think back to when you bought shit because your favorite artist had new shit out.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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SoWhat
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94. "this is capitalism."
In response to Reply # 91
Tue Nov-09-10 01:27 AM by SoWhat

  

          

these artists put their art on the market as a product. as a consumer of the product, i want to get the best price available (which is why i was once a rabid shopper at used record stores). free is the best available price.

(note: if they come around in concert i'm buying a ticket.

unless i can get 1 for free.)

fuck you.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Mon Nov-08-10 05:44 PM

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89. "is it freely available? is there means of obtaining it free? "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

yes?

guess it's free. something for nothing=free.
it's still illegal, but it's still free. this looks like a semantic argument where both sides are techincally correct within their seperate perspectives and niether side in this board wants to concede that fact.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Nov-09-10 12:57 AM

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93. "Half-agree."
In response to Reply # 89
Tue Nov-09-10 12:58 AM by denny

          

Everybody now.....

"It's not illegal to download pirated material".

The only possible charge one can be guilty of in regards to file sharing is copywrite infringement which relies on DISTRIBUTION to be applicable. Therefor, if you don't DISTRIBUTE copywrited material (in this case that would mean either uploading and/or sharing) than YOU CAN'T BE CHARGED WITH IT.

Therefor, if you download without uploading or sharing....IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.

Facts is facts.

  

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forgivenphoenix
Member since Dec 08th 2007
2514 posts
Mon Nov-08-10 07:26 PM

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90. "Music is not free"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Nov-08-10 07:29 PM by forgivenphoenix

  

          

it costs monetarily to produce, it costs experience (time = money) to create or write.

Do or have I downloaded, yeah. I think most or many people from my generation have at some point like scorpion said have in one way or another consumed pirated media.

but there's something to be said for the feeling of paying for something. ya know? that sense of anticipation for an album coming out, the community of waiting at the store for the album or even hearing about other works at the record store. now even though the concept of 'community' exists online, often times these communities are so narrow in focus that there's a real diversity lacking in them to the point that they don't thrive.

i almost miss the feeling of buying an album that was wack and then telling all of your friends about it. just the emotion tied to it was nice. now, it's just 'Move to Recycle Bin'...does a bit make a sound....??? even if i do get an album that's no good, i don't have the same feeling about it. i think that's because the act of buying the music is a commitment to the artist to their message, their craft, their music.

as music has become kinda 'bleh', i think we the audience has felt the same way about music too. it's expected that artists be geniuses who have orgies after concerts and do it for free...sounds a little outlandish don't you think? i would just settle for people who do a good job because they have talent want compensation.

i mean pretty soon we'll be asking musicians to play without fans.

</rant>

* edit * i think music in the end requires an investment, on the musicians part, to invest in the taste of the audience, and on the audiences part to give their money but also their feedback about what works.

scorpion hit on something when they mentioned that the audience / industry relationship is on some hospice / nursing home sh!t now. they just force feed you what they THINK you want to hear rather than presenting or crafting what it is you want to hear.

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

  

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disco dj
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Mon Nov-08-10 07:52 PM

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92. "*applause*"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>it costs monetarily to produce, it costs experience (time =
>money) to create or write.



PLEASE help them understand.



>but there's something to be said for the feeling of paying for
>something. ya know? that sense of anticipation for an album
>coming out, the community of waiting at the store for the
>album or even hearing about other works at the record store.
>now even though the concept of 'community' exists online,
>often times these communities are so narrow in focus that
>there's a real diversity lacking in them to the point that
>they don't thrive.


exactly.


>
>i almost miss the feeling of buying an album that was wack and
>then telling all of your friends about it. just the emotion
>tied to it was nice. now, it's just 'Move to Recycle
>Bin'...does a bit make a sound....??? even if i do get an
>album that's no good, i don't have the same feeling about it.
>i think that's because the act of buying the music is a
>commitment to the artist to their message, their craft, their
>music.


THANK YOU!


>
>as music has become kinda 'bleh', i think we the audience has
>felt the same way about music too. it's expected that artists
>be geniuses who have orgies after concerts and do it for
>free...sounds a little outlandish don't you think?

Yep.


>
>i mean pretty soon we'll be asking musicians to play without
>fans.


we're already to that point, let SOME folks tell it...



>
></rant>
>
>* edit * i think music in the end requires an investment, on
>the musicians part, to invest in the taste of the audience,
>and on the audiences part to give their money but also their
>feedback about what works.


exactly, instead of bitching about how "The Mass Media" forcefeeds us. Vote with your dollars. Send Emails to labels, and artists. Stop sitting on your hands, and maybe people will release shit that's "good enough to buy".


>

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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nublax
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Tue Nov-09-10 11:48 PM

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99. "ahh, the moral/paying-for-music-makes-me-feel-good argument"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

paying for music has always been about access -- buying the music in a physical form was the only way you could access it when and however you pleased.

now that it's freely available everywhere -- illegal downloads, legal streams, random bits on youtube, etc -- people just don't see the sense in paying anymore.

they *will* pay for things that they can't find for free all over the internet. and it's up to artists and labels and managers, etc to figure out what those things are now. it's not music. especially digital tracks.

____________

"If I ever run into any of you bums on the street corner, just let's pretend we never met before."

  

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forgivenphoenix
Member since Dec 08th 2007
2514 posts
Tue Nov-09-10 11:59 PM

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100. "i wasn't really looking at it from paying to not worry about ..."
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

getting sued, not supporting my favorite artist, etc. i was just meaning that when i pay for music i feel i psychologically enjoy the product more. i can't say the same for when i d/l something. if i download something and it's not hittin', it rings like a 1 on my emotional scale. now when i would buy music more regularly and happen upon music that was wack, i had a more appreciable reaction to the wack music.

plus there's nothing like the physical experience of buying music in a store, which has been pretty much wiped the fuck out. so there's that too.

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

  

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Orfeo_Negro
Member since Oct 24th 2004
20923 posts
Wed Nov-10-10 12:05 AM

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101. "Don't mind them, dude... I know exactly what you're talking about."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Downloaded music feels like it has little "value"... It's just intangible information on a hard drive that can easily be deleted and then re-downloaded like it's nothing.

It DOES affect my estimation of the music in some odd way.

________________

"Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." © Brian Eno, "A Year With Swollen Appendices"

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Nov-10-10 07:14 AM

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103. "doesn't happen w/me b/c i listen to it all the same way."
In response to Reply # 101
Wed Nov-10-10 07:17 AM by SoWhat

  

          

as mp3s stored on my PC or iPod.

if i buy a CD i end up ripping it to my harddrive and listening to the tracks that way...as mp3s.

if i buy an mp3 from iTunes or another digital retailer i listen to it as an mp3, of course.

if i dl an mp3 from a peer-sharing service...same thing.

i used to get off on buying music too...but then i realized it was a farce b/c of the way i listen to music. i decided it made sense to save myself the hassle of going out and buying product that i'm just gonna rip to mp3s anyway. and buying mp3s seems absurd b/c i can get them for free. i feel like i'm ripped off every time i buy 1 (see: #94).

of course, i still listen to vinyl too. but i rarely go buy it anymore.

fuck you.

  

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forgivenphoenix
Member since Dec 08th 2007
2514 posts
Wed Nov-10-10 01:23 PM

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104. "but you don't have a different 'feeling' or attachment to the music..."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

if you buy it at a store or even on iTunes than you do if you download it?

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

  

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SoWhat
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Wed Nov-10-10 01:33 PM

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105. "not at all."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

fuck you.

  

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nublax
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Wed Nov-10-10 12:25 AM

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102. "i get you"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          




>plus there's nothing like the physical experience of buying
>music in a store, which has been pretty much wiped the fuck
>out. so there's that too.

if record stores and labels pretended like every day was the much-talked-about annual Record Store Day, a lot more of them would still be in business.

call me weird and too young to remember the good ol days of digging through the crates or whatever, but i'll take the convenience of shopping for (or "stealing") music online and having instant access to it over always having to hop in my car and face god knows what whenever i want to purchase new music.

outside of the social, face-to-face community factor, i don't know if i miss these days that much.

____________

"If I ever run into any of you bums on the street corner, just let's pretend we never met before."

  

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Nekaybaaw
Member since Dec 22nd 2002
6722 posts
Tue Nov-09-10 10:22 PM

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95. "she needs to file bankruptcy like last weekend! "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


..:::inner-planetary knowledge:::..

www.Nekaybaaw.com
www.reverbnation.com/nekaybaaw
www.myspace.com/godis9music
www.soundcloud.com/nekaybaaw

  

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drmindriot
Member since Mar 31st 2010
4858 posts
Tue Nov-09-10 10:24 PM

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96. "You guys should start using PEERBLOCK."
In response to Reply # 0


          

It can prevent the RIAA from seeing what you are downloading. It will prevent anyone from seeing it. Get it and learn how to use it.

  

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nublax
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Tue Nov-09-10 11:36 PM

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97. "1) read more Mike Masnick"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

start here: http://goo.gl/1ot8r (an article about this exact case)

2) read Lawrence Lessig's "Free Culture."


Basically, all those original copyright laws were made hundreds of years ago were not made with something as alien as the internet in mind. And there is no way to easily apply these archaic rules to how people share things today.

Instead of holding on to these ancient laws, lawmakers need to step up and re-examine and adjust things to fit into how people behave in 2010.


it's complex. it's murky. it's going to be a bitch to figure out.

____________

"If I ever run into any of you bums on the street corner, just let's pretend we never met before."

  

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JG.
Member since Nov 08th 2010
643 posts
Tue Nov-09-10 11:44 PM

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98. "Does this happen to people who use mediafire, megaupload etc."
In response to Reply # 0


          

???

  

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3rdson
Member since Nov 08th 2010
1 posts
Wed Nov-10-10 02:31 PM

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106. "RE: So who still thinks "Music is Free"? *Swipe*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I do

  

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WaxLablTabler
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Mon Nov-15-10 04:42 PM

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108. ""Cost" and "(Intrinsic) Value" are two different things."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Cost seeks to accurately estimate/represent the Intrinsic Value of a thing. Because some things (such as probability and eventuality) are impossible to measure accurately, cost is never a necessarily accurate description of intrinsic value.

Put shortly, people need to think about things and what they really mean, not about money.

____________________

be Good.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2n8vg29.png
(by a guy named Wes Whaley http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturepicturegalleries/8779317/Light-paintings-by-Wes-Whaley.html )

  

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