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Lobby Pass The Popcorn topic #265191

Subject: "RE: it doesn't automatically make them bad either" This topic is locked.
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Walleye
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Wed Mar-21-07 04:12 PM

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53. "RE: it doesn't automatically make them bad either"
In response to In response to 52


          

You seem like an athiest like Joyce was an athiest. It's not just the guilt - once you know about the church you can't unknow it just by not believing or not going. POTA/Ulysses is about as concrete evidence of that as one can find.

I tried to talk about the anti-semitism stuff down below. I've deliberately avoided the movie in the time since I saw it first, but my impression at the time was that it actually struck me as something Luther would have appreciated. There's obviously a loooooong tradition of perfectly orthodox Catholics dealing with the Passion narrative in art, but when you isolate the story the emphasis on the Cross tends to kind of beat away anything else. If there's *anything* Gibson cannot be criticized for, it's understating the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice. It's not like there was anything theologically Lutheran about the whole thing, but I came away from it more sympathetic than I'd ever been to Luther's notion that it was thoroughly insulting to think I could ever hope to "add" anything to this sacrifice.

It's difficult for a work of art to adhere to a theological position in this way, particularly one as nuanced as Luther's beef with Rome in the 16th century but there's a pretty long history of debate as to whether (this is obviously a huge simplification) Luther was the first modern or the last medieval, and it's pretty easy to chunk him in the latter category after seeing the Passion. For centuries prior to Luther, people as important as St. Francis and St. Bernard and as unimportant as Margery Kempe were wandering around Europe and meditating with astounding concentration on the most minute detail of Christ's wounds and his suffering, often adding generously to the account. It's not hard to imagine, then, that people were willing to buy into Luther's line of thought, that we should be thoroughly crushed by the magnitude of what happened on Calvary.

By contrast, it makes Gibson's attempts to work The Church into the story seem kind of lame. The flashback where Christ builds the table that's actually an altar felt tacked on in a way that the other flashbacks didn't. The fact that the last hours of Christ's life so dominated the piece is why I questioned Longo on the storytelling requirement, because the best analogues for this movie are actually paintings and sculptures. It's entirely likely that this makes the movie a bad one in the sense that a movie *can* be so much more than a painting or a sculpture, but it's kind of taking your eye off the ball to criticize something that I doubt was really Gibson's intention.

Anyhow, it's more a historical thought than a theological one but any movie that can actually make me think about Heiko Oberman deserves a lot of attention.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Fuck it....Mel Gibson = 1 of top 5 directors [View all] , chinsu, Mon Mar-19-07 07:25 PM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
I want to argue
Mar 19th 2007
1
the level of PTP threads lately has gone down a lot
Mar 19th 2007
2
You know whats beautiful?
Mar 19th 2007
3
tell Noah to break double digits in a big game
Mar 20th 2007
40
      no problem
Mar 21st 2007
48
           I know. Gators might not make it that far.
Mar 21st 2007
59
Jesus, has it ever.
Mar 19th 2007
5
Welcome to the club...
Mar 19th 2007
4
didnt u get the d.a.r.e. program in grade school?
Mar 19th 2007
6
this post is 13 days early
Mar 19th 2007
7
^^^^^'cause it's true
Mar 19th 2007
8
Kazan, Welles, Fellini, Capra and Kurosawa say you're wrong
Mar 20th 2007
31
      1. living. 2. fuck half the ones you named, ESPECIALLY wes anderson
Mar 20th 2007
33
      1. neither you nor the original poster specified living.
Mar 20th 2007
35
      are you out of your mind?
Mar 21st 2007
58
           you're just saying shit you've heard said
Mar 22nd 2007
63
                shit I've heard from MEL
Mar 22nd 2007
68
                     so, you tryna flip his admiration as theft? i could the same for many
Mar 22nd 2007
71
      Sofia?
Mar 20th 2007
38
           I think she's better than Mel as a director, sure.
Mar 20th 2007
39
                Lost In Translation was like *that*?
Mar 21st 2007
43
                Now we're starting to get a bit silly, methinks.
Mar 21st 2007
60
                     to my credit, I had thought that Ephron directed When Harry Met Sally
Mar 21st 2007
61
Top 5 in what sense?
Mar 20th 2007
9
id like to see u make an argument
Mar 20th 2007
10
i can't believe i clicked on this
Mar 20th 2007
11
i loved braveheart, passion was ok, havent seen apocalypto
Mar 20th 2007
12
this is obvious to objective people
Mar 20th 2007
13
Objective how? Passion of the Christ was not good storytelling.
Mar 20th 2007
14
      RE: Objective how? Passion of the Christ was not good storytelling.
Mar 20th 2007
15
      pretty much.
Mar 20th 2007
17
      I think that's the reason why passion projects (no pun intended)...
Mar 20th 2007
21
           it doesn't automatically make them bad either
Mar 21st 2007
46
                RE: it doesn't automatically make them bad either
Mar 21st 2007
49
                     RE: it doesn't automatically make them bad either
Mar 21st 2007
52
                         
                               I hear what both of you are saying about Gibson's intention.
Mar 21st 2007
55
                                    ok, that makes sense
Mar 22nd 2007
64
      not good storytelling? how many ppl walked out of that film crying?
Mar 20th 2007
16
      Fuck that people crying noise
Mar 20th 2007
18
      i agree because for the most part Christianity is an abomination of
Mar 20th 2007
20
      Now this is an interesting point.
Mar 20th 2007
24
           RE: Now this is an interesting point.
Mar 21st 2007
45
                While you're here...
Mar 21st 2007
51
                     I tend to lean this way.
Mar 21st 2007
54
                     I actually liked the movie overall & I'm not bashing it out of hand
Mar 21st 2007
57
                          RE: I actually liked the movie overall & I'm not bashing it out of hand
Mar 22nd 2007
65
                               LOL, word
Mar 22nd 2007
73
      I support this reply 100 percent
Mar 20th 2007
27
      it's a Passion play - it's SUPPOSED to be about his death
Mar 21st 2007
44
           RE: it's a Passion play - it's SUPPOSED to be about his death
Mar 22nd 2007
66
                RE: it's a Passion play - it's SUPPOSED to be about his death
Mar 22nd 2007
74
                     RE: it's a Passion play - it's SUPPOSED to be about his death
Mar 29th 2007
75
      And how many of those people were brainwashed Chrstians?
Mar 20th 2007
19
      I'm an atheist and I thought it was very moving
Mar 21st 2007
47
      I'm not being snarky, I'm engaging you in discussion here, lol
Mar 20th 2007
22
           your problem is u wanted the movie to be something it wasn't meant to be
Mar 21st 2007
50
      you wanted him to focus on character introduction more? dude, it's JESUS
Mar 21st 2007
42
           It's not about ADD, one of my favorite films is Lawrence of Arabia.
Mar 21st 2007
56
                oh ok.
Mar 22nd 2007
62
Posts like this make me never want to come to this forum anymore.
Mar 20th 2007
23
RE: Fuck it....Mel Gibson = 1 of top 5 directors
Mar 20th 2007
25
lmao @ cheetos stained fingers
Mar 20th 2007
26
This is all you had to say in the first place
Mar 20th 2007
28
yup.
Mar 20th 2007
29
RE: This is all you had to say in the first place
Mar 20th 2007
41
braveheart, man without a face, passion and dat 'lypto = top 5
Mar 20th 2007
30
      The Patriot
Mar 20th 2007
32
      he didn't direct the patriot, you uber-faggot
Mar 20th 2007
34
           fair enough
Mar 20th 2007
37
      RE: braveheart, man without a face, passion and dat 'lypto = top 5
Mar 22nd 2007
67
           1. LIVING! 2. don't assume what i don't know about. it makes ptp wack
Mar 22nd 2007
69
                RE: 1. LIVING! 2. don't assume what i don't know about. it makes ptp wac...
Mar 22nd 2007
70
                ^^^Is what makes PTP wack
Mar 22nd 2007
72
foh
Mar 20th 2007
36
great director imo...
Mar 30th 2007
76

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