as well..

To say "most important" would be a huge huge stretch. And I know that even saying "it's the best thing that's happened" is still a shocker, but it is a difference from saying it's that important.

>
>>In the long run, it's having more impact in other ways. It
>was
>>one of those things that jump started more than people
>>realize, and it came from out of nowhere. And once again, I
>>said it was the "Best thing"...mainly about what came after,
>>not about the music, or even how important it is when you
>look
>>through the years and say "what were the most important
>songs,
>>artists, albums"...just the change in gears from the Gangsta
>>shit we were known for, which became cliche and even
>>negative...to a COMPLETELY new attitude and change in
>>culture.
>
>I would agree with you if there was something more substantive
>there beyond the 1 song per artist look that all of those cats
>got. To me for something to leave a significant and lasting
>imprint it has to go further than just 1 song. Even if it were
>something like back when Kid N Play blew up I'd buy this
>argument because Kid N Play not only had a decent to solid
>album beyond just one song but they also expanded into movies
>that EVERYONE enjoyed. No matter how hardcore you claimed to
>be everyone enjoyed at least the first couple of House Party
>movies. Jerkin never did anything like that. That Mario Van
>Peebles movie was supposed to be that and that shit was so God
>awful that most people never even saw it. I actually wish they
>could have carved a little fun niche out of it but in the end
>I don't believe they did and they will forever be looked at as
>a gimmick.

I for sure agree that Jerkin burnt out extremely fast...but the way I see it, I feel that the sound it created just immediately said "all right, eff the gimmicks, and lets at least make regular club music" which is what happened.

I can agree that I am looking at it as a DJ...and that's why I probably see it as more important to overall L.A. culture and the Rap. For example...in early 2008, if I happened to DJ a HS party, you saw the dudes posted around, maybe hopping on girls as usual, but still just standing, looking hard, etc etc. Just a year later, ALL of them were dancing, even the ones who couldn't dance. Even the super tall dude, the fat dude, etc etc...and I don't think we ever saw a shift that happened overnight in that way that also had music behind it.

>>
>>Even with Chronic, people were already paying attention to
>>L.A. Rap, at least halfway....so that made them say
>>"OH......." and Doggystyle followed that as to solidify that
>>we were here. But the eyes were already on us, if that makes
>>since. In 2007, 2008, commercial heads were paying zero
>>attention to anything L.A. aside from The Game, Snoop,
>>basically a few big names and that was it.
>
>But the difference with the Chronic and I would argue Death
>Certificate as well is that there was still a lot of
>resistance to LA. You had the backlash against NWA, Tim Dog
>with "Fuck Compton" and still just an overall vibe that "them
>dudes over there is wack". People may have been paying
>attention but I would say the Chronic is the album that broke
>the door down to where it not only got major play on the radio
>on the East Coast but it was an album that was a must have on
>the street level. Doggystyle like you said followed and then
>that's when you could argue that the West took over but all of
>that shit that came after was much more significant than
>Jerkin ever was. Think about all of the post Chronic releases
>from Dogg Pound to Pac. Those things made a huge impact on the
>street level and the mainstream level.

Yeah, I know there was huge resistance to us, and that Chronic is when people GOT IT, like "damn...they got this..." and it was no way to really hate or stop the momentum. And it worked for that good 92-96 period.

>>
>>With Westside Connection, they made great music that we
>loved,
>>but that actually started dividing fans of West Coast music
>>and East Coast...even The South. It was the blatant, in your
>>face, "This is the West, fuck who don't like it, fuck what
>you
>>think is dope" and that for sure didn't get love everywhere,
>>even though folks respected the attitude.
>
>When Westside Connection hit things were taken to another
>level and you had Mack and WC leaving their own mark. I
>actually think that influenced the Midwest and the South to
>also have an attitude of fuck you this is where I'm from and
>I'm not apologizing for it. At that time the East Coast was
>still in many ways setting the tone for all things Hip Hop and
>while I think it may have alienated some NY fans I also think
>there there was a certain amount of respect for the whole
>attitude like you mentioned. NY is all about attitude and one
>thing I've always believed is that even if they don't like you
>if you tell them to fuck off to some degree they respected
>that more than a lot of the pandering that had gone on. We're
>talking more than 15 years ago and people are still yelling
>"Weeessiiidee" a la Cube. All of those dudes had some level of
>star quality. Most people couldn't really name one person
>directly linked to Jerkin. I think that says it all.

Yea good point, it did influence the South and Midwest to feel like "maybe we don't have to dickride NY or even cater to them to get big"...and it may have even lead to the South's future dominance at that time. And yeah, Westside Connection and not Pac was the reason that everybody screamed and still screams "Westside" for sure.

Jerkin for sure didn't produce any one artist of major impact...YG and Mustard are the main ones who were there at the time that are prospering, along with maybe Ty Dolla. There's others who are doing ok on a local club tip. But I still don't think that takes away from how it was good for the overall scene.

>
>>He had huge impact for HIMSELF...but what did it do for L.A.
>>and L.A's rappers? That's the point of it. And G. Malone was
>>originally BWS, not to name drop but I was part of the camp
>>then, and thought it had potential between Malone, Black
>>Friday, Billboard before his death..and then Techniec,
>>Eastwood, etc. BWS was supposed to literally be the West
>Coast
>>G-Unit, and absolutely NOTHING came from it. And no other
>L.A.
>>artists were put on. So fans outside here loved Game, and
>may
>>have heard a few tracks from the other artists via mixtapes,
>>but none of them even had the chance to flop by dropping an
>>album.
>
>I agree with you here but I think that was more because none
>of those artists could actually deliver anything that people
>wanted to hear. They didn't take advantage of the ear that
>Game had. Eastwood had been around for a while and IMO never
>could deliver a decent song or present a picture of who he was
>as an artist. I also blame Game for this to a certain degree.
>When The Documentary came out I thought he missed an
>opportunity to really bring the West back because when you
>listen to the album it never truly felt like a West Coast
>album. All of the 50 Cent appearances, Em, Yayo. There was
>something from everywhere except LA on that album. I always
>thought he should have had at least one song with a bunch of
>the Black Wall Street dudes on there to give them that
>introduction. I also thought that album should have had way
>more West Coast producers on it. No way that album should have
>come out without at least a couple of beats from Quik,
>Battlecat or even DJ Khalil.

Even though I was in the camp, I always felt he was too much of an East Coast artist that just happened to be from here. One thing we never speak on much is the fact that in 2001-2003, most L.A. rappers who weren't rapping on a gangsta tip ALL rapped like they were from the East Coast...especially when you went to battle type events. Game was one of many..and he also chose to Rap on East Coast and other mainstream beats. And that reminds me...even when I first met with his manager and two BWS artists...I only played them my East Coast sounding beats at first, but when I got to the L.A. soundin ones, they went wild...and I was like oh...maybe they do actually like West Coast beats too?

But I agree about the folks in his camp and who were connected...they were dope rappers, but not artists. And I think folks like Sly Boogy still didn't get a chance to shine, as for those who could Rap AND make songs. Sly was the perfect balance...vs Crooked I, who I rode the hardest for back then, who never learned to make songs.

>
>>Jerkin itself didn't create a positive perception exactly,
>>it's all about what it lead to, which sounds wild but I see
>>how it did..I don't think it was just a coincidence that
>right
>>after Jerkin died, people outside of L.A. were paying
>>attention to Dom Kennedy, TDE/Kendrick, Odd Future, and
>>everyone else. What it did was told L.A. rappers, "f'k being
>>local...whether you're dancing like us making BS records or
>>rapping...there's a whole WORLD out there that is available
>to
>>us!" Even though the internet has helped rappers become big
>>since the early 2000's...it had never worked for L.A.
>artists
>>until this point.
>
>See and I think it's because those artists had an interesting
>take on Hip Hop. I don't think Jerkin had anything to do with
>it. In fact if Odd Future, Dom and TDE had come out as full
>force as they later did I'd argue we may have never even had
>Jerkin.

Eh, I donno...they were all around before Jerkin, and I feel like it's hard to make the connection, but it makes sense that it all got big at one time. Almost like L.A. came back into the Hip Hop world with a variety pack, like "ok you hate the dancing gimmicky shit, well...check this. Oh, you just wanna party, well check this."

>>
>>I agree that "Hip Hop" fans weren't into Jerkin, but as
>said,
>>it was an age thing...there aren't many "Hip Hop" fans under
>>the age of 25, if you ask me....BUT, what I realized is that
>>these 15-25 year old kids tend to enjoy a bit of everything,
>>and aren't as divided on some commercial/underground because
>>technically, most of what they listen to is "Underground" in
>a
>>sense that it's not just pushed by major labels, and is
>heard
>>online before on local radio.
>
>I disagree that there aren't that many Hip Hop fans under 25.
>All you need to do is head out to Rock The Bells or any of
>those damn shows in the desert that are primarily geared
>towards Hip Hop and see how big (and young) the audience is.
>Now you could argue that there aren't as many BLACK fans but
>tons of kids that age were listening to Hip Hop just not shit
>from LA because there wasn't a lot for them to really get
>into.

I guess I could have re-worded...what I meant is that the kids now aren't ONLY "Hip Hop heads" in many cases, and they can enjoy all of the artists. The Black kids especially. Speaking of Rock The Bells, Paid Dues this year taught me a lot. I realized that the crowd basically remained the same for Joey Badass, Trinidad, Problem, Juicy J, Dom...and they loved it ALL. But for the songs I played inbetween, they basically liked the new club songs more than the 90's Hip Hop, even though they all loved Joey and Kendrick. So it feels like they just had balance...I thought they would boo a Trinidad, or even hate me for playing Bugatti type songs RIGHT AFTER Joey went off.

>>
>>>>
>>>>I'll even go as far as to say that it busted the door wide
>>>>open for Kendrick, Dom Kennedy, even Odd Future..because
>it
>>>>was like "Yeah, we Jerk (ha..), we dance, BUT....check
>this
>>>>out too!" and people were willing to listen. It's no
>>>>coincidence that all these different styles here came out
>>>>within the same few years...it was all connected.
>
>To me that's like arguing that the success of Tyrese had
>something to do with Kendrick. Again I think these are totally
>different fan bases. Jerkin mainly appealed to girls and girls
>(in general) aren't going to be all into lyrics and flow etc.
>They just want to party and have a good time. Of course the
>guys will go along with it to a certain degree because they
>want to hang out with the girls but anytime you have something
>in Hip Hop that is too dedicated to the non Hip Hop no male
>core audience you're gonna have a hard time surviving or
>leaving a lasting positive impression.

LOL @ Tyrese. Nah...Jerkin for suuuuure appealed to boys just as much...most of the videos had boys dancing just as much.

I think what made me respect the young kids was after doing an all Jerkin party. Packing up, some kids stayed around, and were playing songs on YouTube...and I was talking to them. I joked and said "you know y'all gon hate ALL of this BS in a few years" and one said "I mean, we know it sucks, it's just fun to dance to. We like more than this" and two were actually hype when I mentioned Murs. I was like whoa...y'all really like Murs AND this Pink Dollaz shit? And it made me realize that this generation wasn't built off radio...so they have a better chance of liking the dance bullshit AND some "real Hip Hop" than what's fed to them on TV..which was dope.


>
>
>
>>
>>I kind of answered this in the previous response. And yeah,
>I
>>know L.A. has always, always been way more diverse than
>people
>>realize (part of what I showed on The Timeline)...but we
>>became EXTREMELY stagnant. In the 2000's, everyone here and
>>outside had the attitude that "to blow up from L.A., you
>HAVE
>>TO go through Dr. Dre." We mention Game, but think about the
>>failed L.A. artists who were supposed to come through Dre
>btwn
>>Snoop and The Game...and how many of them even got ONE album
>>out?
>
>Oh yeah this has been a problem for years so we agree there. I
>think many of those artists made a mistake in now branching
>out on their own and establishing their own style of Hip Hop
>instead of waiting for someone from the NWA family tree to
>blow them up.
>>
>>So as said before...the Jerkin era didn't directly lead to
>>Kendrick and all of them blowing up, but it did help break
>>doors down...and let folks know that L.A. still had A Hip
>Hop
>>scene. And I've even argued that Jerkin was as "true" to
>"Old
>>School Hip Hop" than a lot of the more Underground or "Real
>>Hip Hop" type music was...because it was dancing, and it's
>own
>>culture, and high energy. Even if most of the music was
>>horrid, cheap, made in bedrooms...it was a "do it yourself"
>>attitude that was for once absorbed by a large number of
>>people.
>
>Oh I agree that Jerkin was in line with plenty of songs like
>"The Wop" by B Fats and "Pee Wee's Dance" by Joeski Love so no
>argument there. But like those artists they end up being
>footnotes for lack of having more than 1 song to ride on.

I think the main difference comparing the late 80's dances and even a "Humpty dance" is that there were way more "Hip Hop" songs being played at clubs/parties back then. EPMD, De La, Tribe, even some Cube songs, Quik, etc for L.A....while by the late 2000's, the songs almost had to give you instructions on how to dance. And the club music was just THAT much different from what wasn't meant for the club.

>>
>>Mims to Joey Badass is a huge huge huge stretch, and you
>know
>>that. Mims was ONE artist with a South sounding hit in 2007.
>>What would make a bit more sense is saying the Get Lite/Toe
>>Wop style NY music lead to Joey Badass...which it didn't,
>but
>>that was a whole style and culture, and I think that was
>slept
>>on as well..it had potential.
>
>My point with Mims to Joey is just to show how different
>Jerkin was to what Dom or TDE were and are doing. They share
>nothing in common other than general location so I think it's
>unfair to give them any credit for Kendrick blowing up. They
>are in completely different lanes. I'd give more credit to
>someone like Lupe Fiasco for opening the door for Kendrick
>than Cali Swag Movement.

I don't wanna giev ALL the credit to a CSD or New Boyz, and I feel Kanye is for sure a bigger reason than Jerkin to lead to a Kendrick type act...that's for sure. I just think it tore down the Regionalism that had plagued L.A for so long, not that there was any direct connection to the music itself. It was almost the face of the new L.A. attitude, which was "yeah, we might be from the hood, but we're no longer just rapping about how hood we are, how hard we bang, etc" and all from the same tree.

>
>>Having the President's wife doing a dance that you made big
>>(yeah, Texas created it, but CSD MADE that dance big) is
>>pretty huge to me. Yeah, they were all one hit wonders, but
>as
>>said, it's about the impact that it had. You can't compare
>it
>>to individual songs...it's about what it grew into.
>
>But how is that helping Dom or Kendrick? Nobody looks at that
>and says oh they got something going on in Cali let's check
>out this kid Kendrick who sounds absolutely nothing like them.
>I think people are a lot more likely to go listen to the Texas
>and Atl snap stuff than search out Kendrick because those
>things are all similar.

I can for sure see what you mean with that, but I just feel that people in the South and even East were completely close minded to EVERYTHING we had at the time, regardless of if it was club music, legit lyricism from Blu, laid back smoker music from Dom, semi-gangsta from Jay Rock. I was no longer in the South after 08, but I still remember going back in 09 and 2010, and seeing that the young college kids from other places were into all of the L.A. music at once..and maybe it isn't a direct credit to Jerkin as I feel, but I just think it had to be some type of connection.

>>
>>L.A. for sure isn't a small town...but I lived in Florida
>from
>>2002-2008, and believe me, the perception of anything we
>made
>>was LOW, low, very low. Even when The Game came, it was
>>basically, "All y''all got is The Game." Even Hyphy and The
>>Bay got some love in 05-06. So it felt like L.A. was even
>less
>>important than places like Tampa Bay.
>>
>>DJ Mustard is now one of the top club producers out, Top 5
>I'd
>>say...and the West Coast sound is actually in the clubs now,
>>which hasn't happened since the mid 90's, when artists like
>>Adina Howard, Da Brat, and Biggie had songs with a West
>Coast
>>influence. And his sound is a direct, 100% descendant of
>>Jerkin.
>
>Mustard is definitely the bastard child of Jerkin so we agree
>there.
>>
>>Before Jerkin...you would go to L.A. clubs, and could
>>literally go 2-3 hours without hearing but 1-2 L.A. songs,
>IF
>>that! After Jerkin, you may got 30 min, even a hour, ONLY
>>hearing L.A. songs. That's a HUGE difference. And outside of
>>L.A., you used to never, ever ever hear anything that wasn't
>>90's Snoop/Dre/Pac in the club...now you may actually hear a
>>YG, Problem, for sure Tyga, Ty Dolla Sign, maybe even a Joe
>>Moses.
>
>It will be interesting to see how long that lasts. Of course
>you want music from your region playing in your local club but
>you (or maybe I should say I) also want it to be quality and
>not just the latest fad.

I mean...I'd say it's been 4 years and all with positive momentum. Seeing 2 Chainz, Jeezy, and now B.o.B and Ludacris really going to Mustard for their lead singles...and then League of Starz, or even P. Lo from the Bay producing tracks for Chris Brown, Yo Gotti, Wiz, that are club hits...I feel we have a strong sound now that has plenty room for growth. The recent Mustard tracks for TeeFlii already show another level of progression, incorporating actual musical chords and changes on top of the "Ratchet" type drums.

>>
>>So as a whole, on top of everything already said...I think
>it
>>finally represented a change in L.A. culture. Think about
>how
>>The Game came in 2005, but was wearing shit that nobody in
>>L.A. was REALLY wearing since the early 90's...even bangers
>>weren't all chucks and khakis by 98. Kids here were more
>into
>>dancing than banging for once, and it was represented. In
>>2001-2004, the Clown/Krump culture was HUGE, and luckily we
>>had Rize to document it...but there was ZERO music to go
>along
>>with it that really got play, aside from J-Squad's tracks
>and
>>those that you would hear in like "Stomp the yard." All of
>it
>>was done to Just Blaze, Timbaland, Neptunes, and Lil Jon
>type
>>beats...never to our own music, because that was only about
>>bangin, and never about having fun.
>
>This is true. I looked at Game and thought "damn you just
>stepped right out of Death Row in 96". It was so manufactured
>and had such a time stamp on it that's the other reason I
>don't think any of his artists caught on. When I would drive
>by Dorsey and Crenshaw NOBODY looked like that. None of my
>little cousins looked like that. Clown and Krump culture was
>bigger in my opinion and it was definitely a shame that there
>were no artists to break out of that to really blow up because
>that's the type of thing that I'm talking about as far as
>having a longer and more national impact than just a couple of
>one offs. If Tight Eyes or some of those cats could actually
>rhyme and make some good music? That shit would have been huge
>and respected at the same time because that felt more organic
>to me and more in lines with Hip Hop culture instead of just
>your typical disposable pop/rap song that disappears in a
>couple of years. In the end I hear where you're coming from
>especially since you're a DJ I just think it's a huge stretch
>to say that Jerkin was the most important thing to come from
>LA since The Chronic.

Yeah, Game's shit was manufactured, and EVERYBODY who knew him before 04 said he dressed just like regular L.A "Pretty boys"...Enyce, Pelle Pelle, etc etc. Yea, Clown/Krump culture as a whole was much bigger, more dynamic, more complicated, and lasted longer...but not having any music behind it made it almost pointless for L.A Rap. Now, mentioning Tight Eyes is hilarious. If you know who TeeFlii is right now...that's actually Baby Tight Eyes from Rize! Funny that he didn't make music until now.

Once again, I still think it's a huge diff in saying most important vs best thing. And musically, it was far from the best, for sure. But I saw the potential from day one...and knew that the kids who made the music in 09 that would take it serious may have some gold in their hands. Most of them were really recording and making beats on free software, so it made sense why it sucked. I did think more of the artists would have got big from the era, especially the girls...some actually had some decent little teenage flows.

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