I'm on my last leg in responding to this.

It appears that you have been exposed too much of the same information that I have been exposed to, it's just that you have chosen to believe one thing as far as how things have gone down and I have chosen to believe something else.

I will give you credit that your basis of belief is founded.

>
>Brother, I don't need to check that out. Thank you and I
>appreciate your offering of giving me information, but I'm
>already aware of that information. I'm aware of J. Edgar
>Hoover and his obsession and fear and torture of blacks in his
>high placed position. I'm aware of the powers that had been
>and be and what they have done to destroy black people. But
>I'm also aware of what black people themselves have also done
>to black people.
>
>

So in understanding how Hoover and US intelligence in general has worked overtime to kill anybody or any movement that was working to advance Black ppl., you chose to believe that what went down in the NOI with MX's assassination was all on the NOI? To what extent do you believe the NOI was responsible for his death.

I believe that the NOI as well as MX, was guilty of creating an atmosphere where outsiders (i.e., FBI agents) can step in and assassinate MX and make it look like it was a type of civil war, with responsibility or blame never being laid at the hands of this outside force.

I also believe that the men who were involved in the assassination MX (most of whom never stood for trial) may've been in the NOI but they were not followers of the NOI.

It's funny how cats can stand back and they can see how forces were actively working against the UNIA movement, Dr. ML King, individual Black Panthers and the Black Panther party Movement in general, but when it comes to the destruction of MX, many don't see (or don't want to see) the active involvement of these same external forces; they want to say "naw, them niggas did it to themselves". That's always peculiar to me.



>>The movie planted a seed that has yet to bear any fruit.
>>Since that movie came out, we've seen Hip Hop music go from
>a
>>socially/politically/culturally conscious movement, in some
>>respects, to an all time low of decadence.
>
>That had nothing to do with the Movie. That was what was going
>on at that time, brother. That was the climate. You released
>the same movie Malcolm X 5 years later, and it would have done
>worse at the box office. It would have had less impact,
>because the climate was different. The movie's financial
>success and popularity during the time of its release was
>because of the climate and what the people wanted. In fact, it
>was the tail-end of the "socially/politically/culturally
>conscious movement" you referred to. Hardcore rap was pushing
>to the forefront. The Chronic was released that year and took
>off and a new era was born in hip-hop. But that had nothing
>to do with the Movie.
>

You missed my point here. You claim this movie planted a seed. I'm asking where do we see the fruits of this seed that was supposedly planted. Given the socially/politically/culturally conscious movement in the Hip Hop at the time, I would have to say that this "seed" that you claim was planted by the movie would've been planted into fertile soil (i.e., minds). I mean, how do we see this movie affecting the consciousness of our people manifesting.

Before this movie, I saw many of our people (mostly, young) creating lyrically positive music for us as a people/community/nation. After this movie, we had seemingly a black out on positive lyrics in Hip Hop. More and more, lyrics about drinking, smoking herb, calling Blackwomen bitches and hoes, etc. became more and more prevalent. That's not to say none of this existed before the movie, because it did. But after the movie, the balance between consciousness and ignorance appeared to shift more towards the ignorance, not the positive, enlightend side of the force.

You claim that the movie "planted a seed" I'm just asking where did we see this seed manifest anything reflecting movement in a positive direction? What can you point to in our community as evidence that the movie or the life of MX had an effect on their life? I don't see it. I don't think this movie planted any real seeds or whatever seeds it planted, didn't return a harvest of consciousness.

I believe the movie planted no seeds and had no real effect on anything.

>> I'm not saying
>>that this reality is Spikes fault or is the fault of the
>>movie, but can you name one activists who claims that this
>>movie changed their life?
>>
>
>Why does it have to be an activist who claims it changed their
>life? Why did this movie or any movie have to change someone's
>life. I didn't know that was a requirement of Spike. I know of
>several people who were deeply affected by the movie and
>changed for the better. Some actually joined the NOI. Can you
>imagine that? They aren't necessarily lip-professing activists
>in the national spotlight who pose has a "freedom fighter".
>They are actually people in the communtiy who go unnoticed.
>Young people were affected by this and for some it caused them
>to want to learn more about Malcolm X and actually go read his
>autobiography and do more research about the man.
>

That's real nice, maybe this "seed" that you believe was planted is a slow germinating seed and we will see it bear fruit over the next 5 - 10 years, maybe. I know many who were curious about MX and began researching his life based on much of the music that was coming from various Hip Hop artists around that time. And honestly, I know more ppl. who were curious about MX and picked up the book, based on the build up to the movie as opposed to viewing the movie itself.


>In fact if you think about it, it brought his name back to
>life. Martin Luther King was taught in grade schools. Malcolm
>X wasn't.
>

This is very true. I think to an extent the movie hurt us on this front, too, because MX has been co-opted by the powers that be. They made him out to be a man, who was for everybody.

MALCOLM X BELONGS TO US; he was our hero/leader/example of manhood.

>
>>
>>>
>>>Do you know the history of the NOI and its form of
>>>"sacrifices" back in the day.
>>
>>Well, history according to who? There is always two sides
>to
>>every story. If you were to ask me if I knew the history of
>>the Native Americans that inhabitted this land first and I
>>said no, I would get a very different picture painted for
>me,
>>depending on who's doing the story telling.
>>
>
>
>Well, believe what you want to believe brother, but here you
>go:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>
>"For a fee of ten dollars, Ford gave Islamic sounding names to
>cult members, Elijah and his family going through a series of
>name changes, finally settling on Muhammad. Among Ford's
>teachings, was a call for followers to sacrifice whites in
>order for the person 'to return to his home in Mecca.'
>Followers were also encouraged to believe in human sacrifice,
>'of himself or his loved ones if Allah requires it.' In
>November of 1932, Robert Karriem Harris, one of the earliest
>members of 'the Nation Cult of Islam', was convicted of murder
>in Detroit in the sacrificial slaying of Nation follower,
>James J. Smith, amidst reports of other slayings. This event,
>referred to in Detroit as the infamous 'Voodoo Murders,' led
>to the confinement of Elijah Karriem (who at the time used the
>alias, Ghulam Bogans) to a mental ward, and the banisof his
>teacher, Wallace Dodd Ford to Chicago."
>
>

Okay, if you believe that this human sacrifice and killing has been systemically sanctioned by and within the NOI, how many do you believe MX was apart of?

MX was in the NOI for over 12 years, so do you believe that if this was a common practice of the NOI and with MX's rank and length of service in the NOI, that if this type of activity was occurring, that he wasn't aware of it or maybe even an active participant?

>
>>Do you know they were shooting
>>>and killing their members around the time they were trying
>>to
>>>hunt down Malcolm X? And they killed a lot more after
>>>Malcolm's death.
>>>
>>
>>Source please. A link, a book, a magazine article,
>>something.
>>
>
>here is some more info from that same link:
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi4.html
>
>"In 1964, Aubrey Barnett, a former Boston minister under Louis
>X Farrakhan, quit the group after being fed up with the
>deceptions. Barnett was soon after viciously assaulted on a
>Boston street by 13 of Elijah's men. On November 5, 1964,
>ex-member Kenneth Morton, died from internal injuries suffered
>when he was beaten by four members of 'the Nation.' During the
>same year, Malcolm X, former national spokesman for Elijah
>Muhammad, renounced Elijah's organization, made Hajj and
>became a Muslim, and officially changed his name to Al-Hajj
>Malik Shabazz; openly declaring Elijah Muhammad to be a false
>prophet, thief and fornicator. This led to Elijah printing a
>series of articles critical of Malik Shabazz in issues of
>Muhammad Speaks, referring to Malik Shabazz as a 'hypocrite,'
>including a call for Malik Shabazz' death written by Louis X
>Farrakhan.
>
>On January 6, 1965, ex-member Benjamin Brown, who left 'the
>Nation' to establish a masjid, was shot in front of his
>masjid. This was followed by a series of unsuccessful attempts
>on Malik Shabazz' life by Nation members. On February 21,
>1965, Malik Shabazz was assassinated by Nation members in New
>York City. This was immediately followed by the brutal beating
>in Boston of Leon 4X Ameer, a former bodyguard for Malik
>Shabazz. Left in a coma for weeks as a result of the beating,
>Ameer emerged from the hospital in a vegetative state with
>permanent brain damage. He died shortly thereafter.
>
>In 1971, twenty-five Nation members walked out of Temple no. 2
>in Chicago, with the complaint that not enough money collected
>from members was reaching poor blacks. This led to the murder
>of two of the dissidents. In 1972, author Hakeem A. Jamal, a
>friend of Malik Shabazz and like him, an outspoken critic of
>Elijah Muhammad, was gunned down by Nation members. On January
>18, 1973 in Washington DC, the most gruesome of murders took
>place when several assassins were dispatched from Elijah
>Muhammad's Philadelphia branch temple to kill ex-follower
>Hamaas Abdul Khaalis, who had written dozens of letters to
>Elijah's temples nationwide, calling Elijah a 'lying deceiver
>who was stealing his followers' money and dooming them to
>Hell'. The assassins entered Hamaas' home, finding seven
>members of his family, all women and children. The assassins
>beat and shot the women and children numerous times,
>ransacking the house, then drowning two infants in a sink and
>tub. Hamaas' daughter Amina, who survived despite being shot
>six times in the head at close range, recalled that one of the
>killers asked her, "Why did your father write those letters?"
>His last words to her were, "Don't mess with Elijah." The
>killers fled, but after a nationwide manhunt, all were
>eventually captured and convicted.
>"
>

Okay, this is my position on this type of information: I don't dismiss it outright, but I view it with an extremely skeptical eye. I'm not saying the NOI didn't practice any strong-arm type of disciplinary tactics that may've included intimidation, force, and violence, but at the same time, when I hear or read about some of the claims that some make in terms of the use of violence, killings and what not in the Nation, I wonder to what extent, it involved elements of outside forces to help maintain confusion among members of the organizations.

The FBI would often use conflicts that existed between street gangs and other organizations and the Black Panthers, to spark and start
shoot outs and other types of violent confrontations.

So this type of stuff, I don't necessarily disbelieve outright, but I do view it skeptically.

>Now in terms of Leon 4X Ameer, he was in the movie/documentary
>"Malcolm X" released in 1972 I believe, it was narrated by
>James Earl Jones. Its basically a collection of speeches of
>Malcolm and interviews. Its included as a bonus DVD in the
>release of Malcolm X the movie. Anyway, Leon was beaten
>severely by the NOI weeks before Malcolm X's death. Malcolm
>spoke at the podium and brought brother Leon to the podium.
>And Malcolm spoke how the NOI beat him, trying to get to
>Malcolm. Leon also spoke about the incident in the movie.
>
>Now Leon is later killed after Malcolm's assasination. And
>this could be what you are talking about in terms of the FBI's
>involvement here is link you may find interesting (its 4
>parts, but very interesting):
>
>http://www.theconspiracy.us/9408/0029.html

Thanks for the link. Looks some interesting reading. I'll have to print this off and save it.
>
>>
>>>>It is
>>>>well known that the organization had more than its fair
>>>share
>>>>of zealots who were unhappy with Malcolm,
>>>
>>>Elijah Muhammad included.
>>>
>>
>>What is your basis for the above allegation?
>>
>
>Watch "Make it plain" again, brother. Listen to what Wilfred
>(Malcolm's oldest brother) says about getting word that Elijah
>and the family were unhappy that Malcolm was getting all the
>press and basically eclipsing Elijah in stature. Or read up on
>how the secretaries of Elijah said that Elijah feared Malcolm
>would leave and betray him. Or watch the "Brother Malcolm" dvd
>documentary. Where Charles 37x said that at a meeting with the
>NOI members in philadelphia with Elijah and Malcolm there.
>Elijah referred to Malcolm as the brother whom you will have
>to kill. Charles 37x couldn't even finish the words because he
>was all choked up when he said it. It was too paintful for
>him. These aren't things I'm pulling from out of my head,
>brother. This is documented information.
>

Interesting. The "Make it Plain" documentary, I've seen, but I haven't seen the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. My position on Elijah being jealous is this. Malcolm was a student of Elijah and Malcolm always let this be known, so any shine Malcolm gets, indirectly reflected the greatness of Elijah and ultimately provied press and publicity for the NOI. So it just seems silly to me for him to be jealous; it makes no sense to me.


>>
>>
>>On a side note: It is common belief/opinion/mode of thought
>>among many that Malcolm was brilliant and Elijah was just
>some
>>bumbling idiot, incapable of void real intellect. This is
>>thinking is evil and just plain wrong. While Malcolm was
>very
>>much a self-taught man, much of what he learned and what we
>>came to love as Malcolm X, was the result of Elijah's work,
>>teaching/mentoring, leading, and influencing Malcolm.
>Please
>>check your Elijah hate barometer; it's off da charts.
>>
>
>Not necessarily true, my brother. Now, if you read Malcolm's
>autobiography, Malcolm started taking correspondence classes
>in English, etc. to start better himself before he came across
>the Nation from his brothers Philbert and Reginald. Malcom was
>also inspired by a brother named "Bimbi" as well. Again,
>before he came across the teachings of Elijah Muhammad.
>

>Now, having said that. The great man you referred to,John H.
>Clarke, spoke of in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary, how
>Malcom had a "non-muslim" cabinet. He said Malcolm was
>"devastatingly effective" because of his avid pursuit of
>information. He said Malcolm believed and knew that the
>muslims did not have a lot information and knowledge that was
>out there. He said Malcolm utilized him, John H. Clarke, in
>terms of information on history. Malcolm had different
>branches of his non-muslim cabinet from which he learned,
>sociology, etc. John H. Clarke referred to himself as
>Malcolm's "history department" of this cabinet.
>
>So yes, Elijah Muhammad played some part in Malcolm's
>development, but the Malcolm also played his part in his
>development as well as others outside of the Nation of Islam.
>In fact, its one of the main reasons they wanted to get rid of
>Malcolm while he was in the Nation. Malcolm was leaning more
>and more into nationalistic talk instead of religous talk.
>Watch the "Make it plain" dvd again, brother. Listen to what
>Philber (malcolm's brother) breaks down how the differences in
>ideology between Malcolm's nationalistic stance vs. NOI's
>spiritual/religious stance. NOI, to my understanding, at that
>time wanted nothing to do with the political process and
>protests of the civil rights movement.
>
>

Above I state: "While Malcolm was very much a self-taught man..." Malcolm was an intelligent man, with an insatiable appetite for knowledge. The man's mind was literally a sponge. He learned much from all that was around him, be it people, events, occurrences, or things. He never missed an opportunity to learn. So I acknowledge that Elijah didn't have a monopoloy on Malcolm's knowledge or learning.

I don't discard the fact that MX had various other sources of information. Much of Malcolm's learning acquired outside of the NOI's teaching, he used to validate and confirm the NOI's teaching, and he acknowledged this in his autobiography also. This was a wise move on MX's part.

But it seems to me that many are always trying to discount or minimize Elijah's contribution to Black ppl in America (and throughout the world). One of the main methods of doing this, is to minimize his role in Malcolm's development.


>>Do some research? Brother, there are so many books,
>articles,
>>documentaries, etc. that have been done on Malcolm, Elijah
>>Muhammad and the NOI that I don't know where to begin to
>gain
>>the understanding and perspective that you have formed for
>>yourself. YOU NEED TO REFERENCE THESE THINGS TO MAKE YOUR
>>CASE PROPERLY!!!!!
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Captain Joseph X of temple #7 of the NOI admitted to
>bombing
>>>the house before his died in the early 90's.
>>
>>Source please.
>>
>
>Watch the Brother Malcolm DVD documentary. They report the
>fact that Joeseph X admitted to bombing the house. They also
>report how John Ali was an FBI informant. John Ali was a
>secretary in the NOI. One of the more powerful leaders in the
>NOI. In fact, he met with Talmage Hayer the night before the
>assasination of Malcolm X.
>>

This is suspect to me. It's hard for me to believe that Yusef Ali, personally, bombed MX's house. He was the Captain of Mosque # 7 in New York. Why would he have to get his hands dirty like that? Why wouldn't he send a lieutenant or a rank and file to do it, if he wanted it done? This claim makes no sense.


>>And in the video
>>>"Make it Plain" Joesph X tried to avoid the issue when they
>>>asked him about who bombed Malcolm's house. He said he
>>didn't
>>>know, but had guilt written all over his face in that
>>>documentary. But Joseph admitted to bombing the house.
>>>
>>
>>This is a matter of complete subjective interpretation. I
>saw
>>this video presentation and I didn't see guilt on Yusef
>Shah's
>>(f/k/a Joseph Ali) face; I saw contempt, I saw anger, I saw
>>quite outrage; but I didn't see jealousy. As a matter of
>>fact, he had the attitude that said to me, "If I did it, I'd
>>tell ya to ya damn face, 'Yeah, I did it so what about,
>>motherfucker?'"
>>
>
>^^^This is subjective interpretation as well. Joseph's X whoe
>demeanor changed when asked that question. His body language
>and everything. He looked suspicsous and guilty to me. We
>will agree to disagree on that one.

Interpretation is subjective on both ends. Cool: Agree to disagree on this on for sure.

>

>>>Malcolm's murder was the result of the NOI with assistance
>>>from those outside forces. He wasn't the first NOI member
>to
>>>be f*cked up and gunned down.
>>
>>Source please.
>>
>
>Again, brother. Refer to the links I posted above. Also check
>out the book "Prophet of Rage" by Aurthur Magida. It documents
>about some of the killings referred to earlier in my post. And
>it talks about a few more. It also talks about the severe
>beatings within the Nation amongst its members upon one
>antoher. They even cited an incident where Louis Farrakhan's
>brother-in-law was severely beaten in the basement of Louis's
>own temple in Boston by his captain. They told him to stop
>crying while getting his beating. Crying only disrespects
>Minister Louis.
>

As I stated above, I'm certain the NOI has its own tactics for disciplining its members, but at the same time I am skeptical of sources that I read or hear that make claims of senseless violence or force being committed by a Black organizaiton. The source may or may not be authentic and the violence being reported may or may not've occurred. If said violent events did occurr, were they internal generated actions, or was it an action generated by some outside forces (i.e., agents and spies) who were posing as members to create confusion and anarchy within the organizaition? That's how I view these things.


>>>Do some research.
>>
>>What and where do you want me to research?
>>
>>Malcolm's
>>>murder was the result of fear,jealousy, and the quest for
>>>power within the NOI with help from the FBI, CIA, NYPD, and
>>>United States.
>>
>>What is the basis of the above statement? Is it merely your
>>opinion, is it your opinion based on some citable fact
>>evidence, is it a published fact?
>>
>>If facts are involed please cite a source.
>>
>
>
>Again, check out what John H. Clarke says in the "Brother
>Malcolm" documentary and the "Make it plain" documentary. He
>talks about how people in the Nation enjoyed their petty
>positions and how they were crooks. And if Malcolm would
>become the successor to Elijah he would weed out the crooks
>within the Nation. So, according to John H. Clarke, "the idea
>was to get rid of him (Malcolm) before the passing of the old
>man (Elijah Muhammad)". They wanted the top job, but Malcolm
>was in the way. He said they created an atmosphere within the
>Nation of Islam, Farrahkan included, to get rid of Malcolm.
>

Given the nature and atmosphere of the United States, I am bound to acknowledge, that there had to be some thieves in the NOI and others who were exploiting their positions within the NOI. How can it not be that way in the misdst of the US, the expolitative capital of the world? I mean this type activity occurrs everywhere else in the US: it occurs in the US Corporations, in the US govt., it occurs in so-called not-for-profit organizaitons, it occurs throughout the various churches within the various nominations among the clergy. So why would anyone expect the NOI to be completely immune to this element of exploitation and greed.

But when this level of exploitation is reported from within the NOI, it is #1) reported as if its an occurrence in a vaccuum (i.e., this (i.e., the NOI) is the only place in the U.S. that this was happenin') and #2)it's always at the expense of the good that the NOI was doing for Black ppl. Unlike all the other organizations that were expoiting, stealing, etc., the NOI was building businesses and institutions that benefited Black people. That is the main difference.

US Corporations don't build to benefit Black ppl.; the US govt. does not build for the benefit of Black ppl.; Black Clergy doesn't build for the benefit of Black ppl. For the most part, Black clergy only builds bigger churches. No schools, no grocery stores, no convenience stores, no restaurants, no gas stations, just bigger churches. The NOI did more than just build more buildings for worship. This tends to get lost in the discussion when folks want to talk about how there were people within the NOI, supposedly robbing the house blind.

>Benjamin Karim, a close associate of Malcolm who was in the
>Nation and left when they were treating Malcolm the way they
>were talks about this in the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. He
>said the NOI had shifted its whole stance. They were
>instructed to ridicule and slander Malcolm in public. Benjamin
>said that wasn't what they were taugh initially in Islam. He
>said they had flipped the script. He said it wasn't right. And
>he said left the NOI, as well as others, because of it.
>

Look, I don't believe the NOI was completely blameless in this whole thing. That is not my argument. There are several things that I wish the NOI had not done or at least, handled differently. The treatment towards Malcolm is something that I do have a problem with, I can't blame anyone else who does also.

Sidenote: I thought that the way Khallid was treated by the modern day NOI, was similarly, unfair (putting it lightly) and it left a very, very bad taste in my mouth.


>Again, I'm not talking off the top of my head. If you study
>and do research you can form your own conclusions. AND, when
>you hear it from those who were actually there,well I don't
>know what else to say brother. Believe what you want to
>believe.
>

I have come to my own conclusion. And I am always eager to hear from those who were actually there. At the same time, their perspective, is not always the be-all and end-all to my opinion. I am fully aware that ppl. who were there were likely confused about some of the events that were occurring around them. And that's not their own individual fault. There were people around them, who's (real) job was to create confusion and keep it stirring among the members of the organization.


>
>>
>>
>>The gestation and core root of this problem was
>>>birthed in the NOI. The outside forces didn't have much
>work
>>>to do. It was going to be done with or without them.
>>
>>You have got to be kidding. To quote our beloved elder and
>>now Most Honored Ancestor, John H. Clarke, in his
>>autobiographical documentary "A Long and Mighty Walk", he
>>stated, in sum that he believed that Farrakhan's rheteric
>>contributed to the atmosphere that enabled Malcolm to be
>>assassinated. He also stated that he believed that
>Malcolm's
>>death was bigger than some local, domestic squabble with the
>>NOI.
>
>Yes, I know this. I've never denied this. You should really
>check out the "Brother Malcolm DVD". You would really like it,
>I think. It harps on mostly the FBI, CIA, and NYPD's
>involvement in getting rid of Malcolm. John H. Clarke is in
>there as well. It talks about things that you find is a
>problem with the movie Malcolm X.
>
>But again, the core root of the problem existed within the
>Nation of Islam. And it made the outside forces job a lot
>easier to get rid of Malcolm with the NOI wanting to kill him.
>
>

I think we agree here. I think the only difference we may have is to what extent the NOI was responsible vs US Intelligence forces.



>>It's fine that he inclued the fact that Malcolm was a street
>>guy in the movie, but I just think that he should've given
>at
>>least equal time to the Intelligence Community's role in
>>assassinating Malcolm, not just spying on him or keeping
>tabs
>>on him, but moving to eliminate him.
>>
>
>But the movie was about the life of Malcolm X right based on a
>lot of his own account, right? Not the Intelligence Community
>and their actions, right?
>

I thought the movie was about the Life and TIMES of MX. In that, you can include, the manner in which MX assassination truthfully went down.

>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Instead, Spike leaves the viewer with the impression of
>>>>this
>>>>>>being just simply another case of Black on Black
>>violence.
>>>
>>>>>>And MX's murder was much bigger than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes it was. But it doesn't ingnore the fact that his own
>>>>>brothers wanted him canceled for no reason but their own
>>>>>jealousy of his power.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some may've wanted him dead, I'll give you that; but that
>>>>doesn't mean that they killed him.
>>>
>>>lol. I mean, nobody from the NOI pulled the trigger.
>>>
>>Actually, only one out of the 5 that were involved is
>actually
>>known to have been in the NOI. The rest were most likely
>FBI
>>agents or recruits.
>>
>
>Really, Check out the "Brother Malcolm" documentary. Baba Zak
>Kondo is in there describing the 4 other men Talmage
>described. He says otherwise in the DVD. According to him,
>they were all in the Nation of Islam, Mosque 25. Now he did
>say, that it seemed one of the guys, the oldest guy of the
>group, appeaered to be taking orders from some higher ups
>(most likely the intelligence community you are referring
>to).
>
>Also, the documentary talks about John Ali being an informant
>and meeting Talmage Hayer in New York, the night before the
>assisination.
>

This "Brother Malcom" documentary sounds like some interesting stuff. I'll have to check it out. Maybe Spike should have checked it out, before filming the "X" film.


>>>See,a lot of the NOI were frauds. It was a hustle for a lot
>>>them, Elijah Muhammad included. They had a good thing
>going.
>>>Money was coming in. Malcolm, in the name of righteousness,
>>>was disrupting the hustle that existed. Those hustling
>>crooks
>>>were able to enjoy those fruits because Malcolm had built
>>the
>>>movement through his own personal labor in the name of
>>Allah.
>>>Malcolm's movement was built on righteousness. That is why
>>in
>>>the movie,in one of its most telling scenes, Malcolm throws
>>it
>>>back at Baines and says, "I'm telling you God's words not
>no
>>>hustle...Brother Baines is a 2-bit hustler and one hand
>>washes
>>>the other". The divide was there. See, that wasn't
>>>entertainment. That was a depiction of the reality that
>>>existed within the Nation of Islam.
>>>
>>
>>These are strong words and allegations that you are making
>in
>>the above diatribe. I mean, you didn't declare that there
>>were a few who were stealing and thieving; you just made it
>>sound like the whole NOI was an organization filled with
>>crooks. What are these allegations based upon? YOU MUST
>BACK
>>UP THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS WITH EVIDENCE!!
>>
>
>Again, refer to what cited from John H. Clarke and Benjamin
>Karim. Are they liars? Those sentiments were there back then
>and the events occured.
>

I am more than sure that there was exploitation occurring from within the NOI, but to the exent that some like to argue that exploitation was rampant is where I have a problem. The NOI managed to build for and contribute more to the benefit of Black ppl than many other organizations out there that are exploiting, stealing and fleecing.

DON'T DENY THE NOI ITS JUST DUE!!!


>And Spike had the fictional character Baines, represent that
>sentiment. That isn't entertainment, brother. That is a
>depiction of reality.
>

Yeah, agreed, Spike did include a fair share of fiction in the movie.


>>Bring some real facts to the table, not empty quotes from
>that
>>silly movie.
>>
>
>Stop assuming, brother. "Silly movie"? Ah, I see. lol I guess
>you thought all I did was watch the movie. lol
>

Just watching the movie may not have been all you did, but that's all many did. Bringing up quotes from the movie don't impress me.


>>
>>Brother, you are a Malcolm worshipper. Malcolm was a GREAT
>>man, but he had flaws and played a part in the atmosphere
>that
>>led to his own assassination. If you recognize that,
>nothing
>>that I say to you on this matter will make sense to you.
>>
>
>I'm not a worshipper. Idolatry and sonship are not great
>things. I admire Malcolm a great deal and he inspires me.
>
>And Malcolm's flaw was his naivety while in the Nation. He was
>so loyal that he was blind to Elijah Muhammad and his ways. He
>probably would have stayed in the Nation had he not been
>forced out. Others around had said so. He was that devoted to
>Elijah. But being forced out was the best thing for Malcolm X
>and I think he came to realization of what the a lot of the
>NOI and Elijah had unforunately become: a fraud. And it hurt
>Malcolm a great deal. It happens to all of us. None of us are
>immuned.
>
Elijah a fraud?? How so? This is the thing that irriatates and pisses me off at times. Malcolm's a genuis but Elijah a nit-wit; Muhammad Ali was brilliant and brave but Elijah was a bumbling idiot and a coward; Na'im Akbar is wise but Elijah was a fool. All of the businesses and institutions that the NOI had established under Elijah's leadership, that served and benefitted Black people, were a fraud also, I guess. This type of logic, thinking and reasoning, is evil and downright wrong!!!

>
>And to say that Malcolm played a part in the atmosphere that
>led to his own assassination is a creepy statement, brother. I
>don't know what you mean by that. But Malcolm standing on the
>foundation of righteousness and Allah for his people and
>exposing the forces of the devil that were destroying his
>people (including the NOI and United States), is no
>justificaton or reason for him to be killed for it. NONE.
>

By Malcolm's bickering and verbally putting the NOI and Elijah Muhammad on blast, he literally set up the environment for his own assassination. That was bad enough, but to make it worse, MX went on Mike Wallace's news program and was just a doggin' Elijah Muhammad. Now to be upset with your Brother is one thing, to harbor negative feelings toward your teacher/mentor is not good, but it can and does occur from time to time in human relations. But to go to the common enemy of yourself and your brother/teacher/mentor to put your brother/teacher/mentor's personal business out in the street is blasphemous and outright wrong.

I believe that when MX did this, this is what created much of the anger and traitor and hyporcrite talk amongst the rank and file in the NOI.

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