>
>I mentioned above that one of my mentors was in the NOI and
>left when Shabazz was murdered. By that time Muhammad was a
>figurehead and, yes, you can whittle to nothing in 10 years or
>more. I've seen that firsthand.
>

Your response here is kinda misleading because in the previous post you declared "at that time" (I'm assuming that you meant the time that Malcolm was assassinated) "Elijah Muhammad's health was failing" and of course you mentioned that the movie showed this. To which I responded that his health was not that big of an issue that you were making it out to be because he commanded the NOI as its leader for 10 years after MX's assassination, and not that he had whittled away to nothing in 10 years; that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that he had not whittled away to nothing at the time of MX's assassination.

Also, if E.M. was a figurehead, who was the actual leader during this time?


>>The people who pulled the trigger WERE Black and I never
>said
>>that they were not. But I'ma let you in on a secret sis.
>>*leans closer* You listening? *whisper begins* The FBI
>>recruits and hires Black people to obtain information from
>>Black people and to disrupt positive, progressive activities
>>of Black organizations. *whisper ends*
>
>No need to whisper. I already mentioned COINTELPRO.
>

Mentioning an organization and telling on them is 2 different things.


>>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen pulling
>>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?
>
>So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from
>No. 25?

This is also misleading because you typed the question in the form of a double negative. So I will re-type the question the way that I think you meant to ask it, and you can let me know whether my re-phrasing is accurate or inaccurate.

"So are you denying that some of the assassins were from
No. 25?"

Ok. Pay attention real closely, because I thought that I was making this clear before but apparently not. Some of the assassins may've been from Mosque # 25, some of them may not have been. Talmadge Hayer I believe was from mosque # 25, so at least he was one that I would have to say yes to. But no one knows where the other assassins were from because they never stood trial and were never brougt to justice. They supposedly "just disappered", I guess. No one at the Audobon that day ever knowingly saw these guys again. The other 2 men that stood trial with Talmadge Hayer did not particpate in MX's at assassination and were not even at the Audobon that day that MX was assassinated.

The unknown/unfound assassins may've been from Mosque # 25 but they were not of Mosque # 25; they were of the FBI. The FBI would send FBI agents (in this case, Black agents) to infiltrate organizations that they considered a "threat to National security". By joining these organizations, the FBI was able to keep a close eye on the activities of these organizations and disrupt things (if it was thought to be necessary) and cause confusion, above all else.

I believe yo' boy Jambone has acknowledged that one of E.M.'s top aids, John Ali, served as the NOI's secretary, all the while he was on the FBI's payroll. This was done to the NOI, the Black Panthers, the US organization, Garvey's UNIA movement, you name the organization, if they were looking to make some serious moves on the behalf of Black people, they were infiltrated.


>
>>Note: initially, it was reported that 5 men were
>>involved in Malcolm's assassination, but only 3 stood trial
>>and out of thos 3, only one had anything to do with the
>>assassination. What do you think of that?
>
>Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.
>

No, it wasn't part of the deal; IT WAS PART OF THE JOB. No need for them to hang around there anymore, their work was done (i.e., MX was dead and confusion, fingerpointing, and misblaming was abound concerning who was responsible for his death) so time to move on to the next assignment.

>
>Well, here's a couple for you:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/71838.stm
>
>http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9929,noel,7168,5.html
>
>Very fishy.
>

Fishy, huh? What I got out of those links is that Farrakhan gave a leadership position in the NOI to a man who was wrongly convicted for the death of MX. Abdul Aziz (then Norman Butler) stood trial for the murder of MX and was convicted but he wasn't even at the Audobon that day. That day, he had gone to the hospital for a doctor's appt. for treatment for his injured leg, which was confirmed by witnesses and hospital records. But yet, he was still convicted of MX's assassination.


>>Well, that's fine; but honestly Malcolm didn't fully know at
>>the time how heavy he was being watched nor did he
>understand
>>the extent to which the imperialist forces were making moves
>>on him.
>
>I disagree. He KNEW. Even Betty Shabazz knew.
>

You can disagree all you want. Malcolm couldn't prove it; Betty couldn't prove it; and you can't prove. The only thing anyone can do is have suspicions and make accusations, but no one can prove anything so no one really knows.


>>Maybe so; hell, probably so. But to what extent this
>>courruption was prevealent and manifesting itself is the
>>question.
>
>My mentor was a teenager in the NOI at the time of Shabazz'
>death. He claims even he knew what was up and that was why he
>left. He showed me documents to prove his case, too.
>

What documents did he show you? What was the source of these documents?

>>Honestly, Malcolm didn't "chose to leave the NOI", he was
>put
>>out or should I say constructively removed from the
>>orgainzation.
>
>Shabazz was silenced for a time but not put out. He left
>because I do believe he knew he was destined to take the cause
>to the global stage...and he became aware of corruption within
>the NOI.
>

As I said, he was "constructively" put out. He wasn't told to leave, but by silencing a man like Malcolm and not allowing him to have a leadership position in the organization that he helped to grow, is just as good as putting him out, i.e., constructively put out.


>>I don't know what this "true Muslim" talk is about. What
>>makes what some damn Arabs have more valid than the means of
>>religious expression that Black people have?
>
>From http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/find_more/m_x.html:
>
>"On March 12, 1964, impelled by internal jealousy within the
>Nation of Islam and revelations of Elijah Muhammad's sexual
>immorality, Malcolm left the Nation of Islam with the
>intention of starting his own organization:
>
> I feel like a man who has been asleep somewhat and under
>someone else's control. I feel what I'm thinking and saying
>now is for myself. Before, it was for and by guidance of
>another, now I think with my own mind.

First of all, E.M. identified these women as his wives and he took care of them and their children as such (one of these women, Tynetta Muhammad and her son, Ishmael (also, E.M.'s son), hold leadership positions in the Nation to this very day). MX knew about this so-called immorality when he was on silent probation and was trying to get back into an active position in the NOI. So for him to claim to be leaving because of some "sexual immorality" sounds suspect to me.

>
>Malcolm was thirty-eight years old when he left Elijah
>Muhammad's Nation of Islam. Reflecting on reflects that
>occurred prior to leaving, he said:
>
> At one or another college or university, usually in the
>informal gatherings after I had spoken, perhaps a dozen
>generally white-complexioned people would come up to me,
>identifying themselves as Arabian, Middle Eastern or North
>African Muslims who happened to be visiting, studying, or
>living in the United States. They had said to me that, my
>white-indicting statements notwithstanding, they felt I was
>sincere in considering myself a Muslim -- and they felt if I
>was exposed to what they always called "true Islam," I would
>"understand it, and embrace it." Automatically, as a follower
>of Elijah, I had bridled whenever this was said. But in the
>privacy of my own thoughts after several of these experiences,
>I did question myself: if one was sincere in professing a
>religion, why should he balk at broadening his knowledge of
>that religion?
>
> Those orthodox Muslims whom I had met, one after another,
>had urged me to meet and talk with a Dr. Mahmoud Youssef
>Shawarbi. . . . Then one day Dr. Shawarbi and I were
>introduced by a newspaperman. He was cordial. He said he had
>followed me in the press; I said I had been told of him, and
>we talked for fifteen or twenty minutes. We both had to leave
>to make appointments we had, when he dropped on me something
>whose logic never would get out of my head. He said, "No man
>has believed perfectly until he wishes for his brother what he
>wishes for himself."
>
>Thus true Muslims take the pilgrimage to Mecca, according to
>the Quran and meet in fellowship with other Musilms there to
>practice the rituals detailed in the Holy Book.

Okay, I know the pilgrimage to Mecca is a requirement of Muslims in the NOI if it is within their means.

Secondly, this wasn't Malcolm's first time seeing white Muslims. He made a trip to the so-called Middle East years before the 1964 trip and unless all the white Muslims had left town that day, it is likely he saw white Muslims and knew that there white Muslims existed.

Thirdly, I refuse to believe that MX was naive enough to believe in this ritual meaning much of anything. As often as he spoke of the hypocrisy of white Christians(preaching brotherhood on Sunday, but never really putting it into any real practice), I'm sure he was insightful enough to not be fooled by a ritual (i.e., Hajj) that is based in peace and brotherhood.

And lastly, I assume that you believe the NOI should practice a non-race prejudiced based Islam like the Islamic Arabs enslaving and committing all kinds of abuses and atrocities against Black Afrikans in the Sudan.

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