>And believe me, this is only partial. I will come back with
>your correction. I'm still missing your intention of
>posting. Is it to prove that Islam as a religion and as a
>way of life holds women in a lower manner or is it the
>relationship between Musims and non Muslims. Either way God
>willing I will try my best to provide you proof to the error
>in you judgement or thought.

Response: Well, I am not trying to prove anything. My first post was saying that the more you look at Islam the worse it gets. Then someone told me to put up a sura proving my point. So I did, then that lead to the topic of women in islam. And I was asked to put up another sura, so I did. So its up to you, you can debate either topic I don't mind.

But until then, answer me
>this. What is the Christian or Judeo-Christian stance in
>these manners. I'd love to hear your answers.

Response: On which one? Women or unbelivers? On women its up in the air. My perspective is that there are roles that women must hold, and there are roles that men must hold. i.e. pastoral roles I think belong to the male, not because the male is superior to the women, but there are certain functions that God has assigned to each sex. Now, realize I hold the minority view on this one, there are plenty of Christians who would say the opposite, but that is where we would have to debate.

On unbelievers, we are called to witness to them. And show acts of mercy to them, but not attack them.

From my own
>"look" into the Bible I found things that were far more
>literal and either spitefull or hatefull when it came to
>relations with non believers. I recall Joshua destroying
>whole tribes men, women and children,

Response: Yep thats correct, but that was my arguement from yesterday. That was a specific event, limited by God for Joshua and Israel to conquer and recieve the land that was promised to them. That is not for us today, God told him specifically to do that as 1) an act of judgement against the canaanites for their sins.2) In order to fufill the promises that were given to Abraham in ordet to fufill the covenant blessings. In Islam I don't see those verses being only applicable to a certain group of people or a specific time period. From my understanding everyting in the Quran is universal and still applies today. And it is evident that some groups read it that way.

and on the subject of
>treatment of women, I found your "apostle" Paul to say this:
>
>I Corinthians 14:34,35 "As in all the congregations of the
>saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They
>are not allowed to speak but must be silent in the churches.
> They are not allowed to speak, but must remain in
>submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about
>something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for
>it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a church."
I await you "response". And please come with something
>other than the "Christian response" of how that was then,
>the church has changed. If that is your answer, who gave
>anyone permission to change anything?


Response: Sure no prob, Paul is not prohibiting all public speech by women in the church, for he clearly allows them to pray and prophesy in the church in 1 Cor 11:5. Therefore, it is best to understand this passage is referring to speech that is in the catagory being discussed in the immediate context, namely, the spoken evaluation and judging of prophecies in the congregation (see v 29: Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said) While Paul allows women to speak and give prophecies in the church meetings. he does not all them to speak up and give evaluations or critiques of the prophecies that have been given, for this would be a ruling or governing function with respect to the whole church.


Anyways, know that I
>come not to defame the name of Christianity as it appears
>you come.

Response: Actually, if I'd really came to defame Islam I would come with some harder arguements than the ones I am doing here.

I am not trying to create a further divide
>between Christian and Muslim, but I am curious as to why you
>seek to discredit Islam so, when yet your own house is out
>of order.

Response: Nice one. Actually some one ask me to put up those suras. I've got more than these, I am just putting up verses because I was challenge too.
>
>But as to Surah 9:29 I will get back to you on that. I
>believe that you are speaking or quoting the Qur'an out of
>context, but since I do not know all, I have to go to the
>lab and get my read on!

Response: Sure no problem.

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En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos