>
>
>Varies with the time and period. I discussed the conversion
>of mali but also I will say that with ANY religion that
>actively SEEKS converts, the people who are at the lower
>levels of society or are downtrodden because of
>social/religious reasons (in traditional AFrikan systems
>social and religious go hand-in-hand) will often be the
>first to convert to anything new.

See over here you might be talking more about Western Christians than Muslims. I know there have been forced conversions into Islam through invasions but the Islamic missionary zeal is something that I have never experienced. I've never heard Muslims say "Oh those kaffirs in Polynesia need some Islam in their life, lets go there and fix em up!" or even mentioned this idea vaguely. However, Muslims do preach. In Bengal Sufi saints came from the Middle East and preached and people converted but even then the indigenous Bengali Hindus accepted these saints and joined in worship with them. But I still cant agree with you that Islam/Muslims ACTIVELY seek converts.

The idea is that anyone
>that has a problem with the social order will be seeking
>ways of leaving/changing/resisting it and conversion to a
>new religion/ideology is often the first route taken.
>Chinua Achebe details in _ThingsFallApart_ how this occurred
>amongst the Igbo with Christianity during the early
>colonization of Nigeria.
What were some reasons that people had problems with the Afrikan social order?How were they placed amongst the social order after they converted if there wasn't economic gain if Muslims werent the ruling class? In Bengal for example the majority of the peasants converted to Islam but the rulin landowners were mainly Hindu in many cases. This did not happen in Afrika? There were no indigenous Afrikans ruling over Muslims?I know Afrikan religious systems are inclusive but there had to have been some disdain for people who converted to Islam because they were once the lowest on the societal chain? There was no "Mlechha" (Sanskrit for "foreigner", "barbarian")complex that Hindus gave Muslims? Indigenous Afrikans didn't look down on foreigners or foreign customs at all? Even amongst contact with other tribes, there was no loooking down of lets say Yoruba vs. Igbo?





>
>I don't think anyone can definitely say "why" but I do think
>it is apparent that initially it was a byproduct of
>improving trade relations only to eventually lead to a more
>stricter practice of Islam because of the gaining of Islamic
>teachers.
Muslim North Africans wouldn't trade with non-Muslim Afrikans because they werent Muslim? How did becoming nominal Muslims help the Afrikans kingdoms?



>

>
>>I have a hard time
>>believing that ordinary people only converted for economic
>>gain.
>
>Well in the empire of Mali, the royalty converted so the
>conversion of their people is sure to follow.

Is this a right assumption? History has shown us that many a ruling elite were different religiously from their constituents. My example of Bengal is one(Hindu elite over Muslim peasantry)Just because my king is Muslim doesnt necessarily mean that I would have to be. Is Mali a common enough example in Afrika? Is it common enough to say that Islam will kill Afrikan ways of living?



The strength
>of their conversion (as i said before) only increased with
>the increase of Islamic teachers and scholars in the land.
>Remember the people of MAli were inclusive of Islam, which
>means that they might accept religion, take what's good to
>them and leave the rest, but over time access to a more
>in-depth Islamic education causes the exclusion of past
>traditions.
There were more scholars than religious preachers?Was Timbuktu or places like it accesible to all?The peasant was introduced to Islam through the scholar and not the preacher in Afrika?I ask this because theres a huge difference between the scholar and the preacher in Islam. Theres usually more preachers than scholars in a group of Muslims. And preachers tend to adapt to the environment more often than scholars who will have an Arabist viewpoint usually. The Islamic scholar as primary teacher of islam is foreign to me.



However Islam/Christianity
>largely negate and in many cases actively try to suppress
>AFrikan systems as a whole.
How has Islam negated Afrikan ways of living? Has this always been overwhelming or more common within this last century?If its been common within the last century I would assume it would be due to the new Islamic fundamentalism which is Arabist and is revisionist. And I agree that the Arabist viewpoint would negate Afrika but not Islam practiced in Afrika. Theres a big difference.




>Islamic learning = Arabization.

No not necessarily. Like I said Islamic learning came through preaching in many areas and it definetely either compromised its Arab background in order to harmonise with its new surroundings.But if it was like how you say it was,then over time it would likely be more Afrikanised than Arabised. It doesnt seem logical that way especially in West Afrika what with its distance.
>
>I'm sure over time enough AFrikan teachers reared in Islamic
>rhetoric took over. Also considering that many teachers
>were from Egypt anyway (still plenty of indigenous Afrikans
>there), there were definite "Afrikan" teachers. It is
>documented that Mansa Musa on his return from the hajj
>brought several Islamic scholars back to Mali after his
>travels.
>
>>Islam was taught primarily by Arabs? Arabs did not
>>intermarry with the community?
>
>With any belief system, factors such as "race," "ethnicity,"
>kwk. become negligible. Once someone is reared in a belief
>system they easily become perpetrators of it. A simple
>example is the fact that many Afrikans in a America think
>like Europeans and might as well be dark-skinned white
>people.

okay Agreed but the Afrikans that went to Amrika were forcefully immersed into a culture into which they were the minority. Islam comes into Afrika as the minority. In certain areas it holds sway and Im sure in other areas it doesnt. And even in areas where it holds sway without a strong Arab presence I cant really see how Afrikans became so "Arab" as you say without being close to the Middle East.
>
>Oh and yes some Arabs did intermarry with the community or
>at least bore children with community members.
>
>>So this is no more in Afrika?
>
>Depends where you are and who is in power. The hausa of
>West Afrika (Hausaland is part of several different West
>Afrikan countries) for instance still have many of their
>pre-Islamic traditions in tact despite the fact that they
>are largely Islamic as a group and have been for years.
>However, the fact remains that THEY controlled their own
>communities unlike the Arab/Muslim dominated Sudanese
>government that actively outlaws and suppresses native
>Nubian traditions such as wrestling matches.
>
>Afrika is a big continent and the people's experiences can
>and do at times differ with with one anothers'.
See this is the probably the most important thing you typed in my opinion. Afrika is diverse and expereinces vary so Hausas arent insecure about their Afrikanness but maybe Eastern Afrikans could be more apt to be so. So with this in mind, why is Islam bad when its been expereinced in different ways by different groups?




>
>
>>No thanks be to Arabs and Persians. Similar things have
>>happened to Bengal and other non-Arab Muslim areas. Bengali
>>children are kidnapped on the daily to work in Saudi Arabia
>>and Bengali girls as well as Somalian girls are used as
>>prostitutes in the Gulf. Most Bengalis aren't anti-Islam
>>because of what Arabs do however, they just might not like
>>Arabs.
>
>>And I assume that is what is true in Afrika but youre
>>telling me that Afrikan Muslims don't think that theyre
>>different somewhat from Arabs?
>
>I'm not saying anything. Some do, some don't. Overall
>isn't a goal of Islam to imitate the lifestyle of the
>Prophet Muhammad?
yeah but that doesnt mean you gotta have 4 wives. If its not common in your region then people don't?I think this idea is more in a general universalist sense even though its not practiced as such by most Muslims. Muhammads view of women will differ as its interpreted in different regions. And I'm sure Muhammamed's lifestyle has been interpreted differently in Afrika.



>Also isn't another goal of Islam to see oneself as part of a
>larger Muslim brotherhood?
Sure but I dont see how this stops you from being Hausa and me from being Bengali. We pray towards Mecca but you eat okra and I eat shrimp. We dress differently, language, cultures everything different. Its kind how you define Afrikan cultures. You recognise their differences but see theirs some common links between them. You say Yoruba and Igbo got things in common so through Islam a Muslim could rationalise it as we all Muslims no matter what our language is.


>
>I'm sure a far removed group (far from a large Arab
>community) such as the Hausa would see themselves more
>different from Arabs versus East Afrikan Muslims who are
>closer in proximity (and blood) to Middle Eastern Arabs.
>I've definitely heard of cases along the Swahili Coast where
>claiming descendancy from Arabs is akin to having more white
>in one's blood in the Americas

I have too but still these are specific cases. And youre right in the Muslim brotherhood their is a percieved Arabness once your country is closer to Saudi Arabia but it is far from the truth in most cases.
>
>>

>
>
>Languages, practices, ceremonies, thought processes, values,
>kwk.



>
>all are evident in the daily lives of Afrikan descendants in
>the Americas. From my experiences INDIANS in the caribbean
>DO consider themselves INDIAN (see Trinidad or Guyana?).
They are Indian in relation to Afro-Trinidadians but not in the whole diaspora of Indian people. Geography changes a lot. If you go to Richmond Hill(Indo-Carribean) in Queens and then you go to Jackson Heights(South Asian) its a world of difference.


In
>Panama, there is a group of people who call themselves "Los
>Congos." the list goes on and on.
>
>As far as in the United States, well many Afrikans might as
>well be dark-skinned white people but there are still
>elements of Afrocultural values that are evident among
>Afrikan Americans (e.g. communalism, expressive
>individuality, and as you mentioned the ever-so-popular
>practice of call-and-response).
From my experince living in Jamaica Queens amogst West Indian Blacks, Amrikan Blacks, and Afrikans I've seen more differences than similarities. I saw elements of the Amrikan Black community when I lived in Cleveland but still it was much different than my Afrikans friends houses. Matter of fact I related almost like another South Asian to my Igbo friend Emeka (and vice versa)than lets say to my man Vernell Hunt.Vernell Hunt said I worshipped "the fireplace" (in response to me telling him I was Muslim) and laughed that I took my shoes off in my house. Emeka was cool with everything we did in my crib and vice versa. The fact that I had to stand up in Emeka's house when his mother came in the room just like my Bengali upbringing was a big thing back then. That is just one example. There are countless other ones I dont have to time to type now.


>

>
>No I didn't say that, absolutely. I stated that as a
>possible evolution just like having a negative outlook on
>one's traditions. Nevertheless I have seen the impact of
>Islam and/or Christianity causing a DEFINITE hate in the
>fact that one is a member of a traditional Afrikan group

I;ve seen this too but it really is a minority of people who think like this from my experience. Not enough to kill Ananse and I also dont think Muslims want to kill Ananse but to syncretise with him.
>
>>think you're essentialising them a little bit to much. I
>>know non-Arab Muslims have complexes but they also have to
>>face the reality of where they live. And what ever is the
>>norms will have to compromise with their religion. This sort
>>of victimisation of Afrikan culture is sort of misleading.
>
>>Such a great culture wouldn't fight for representation
>>amongst competing cultures doesnt make sense to me. I dont
>>think that Islam or Christianity will overshadow Afrikan
>>culture. Afrikan culture is not weak.
>
>Whether or not Afrikan culture is "weak" is not the issue.
>(BTW it definitely ISN'T weak). The issue is whether one's
>following of Islam or Christianity will cause them to negate
>one's particular traditional Afrikan group belief systems.
>In some cases Islam and Christianity are successful and in
>some cases they aren't.

Nevertheless, the exclusive nature
>of those religions makes the conflict, inevitable.

The xclusive nature only in cases like Sudan lets say or East Afrika or Mali but there are tons of either cases where the conflict is avoidable or not even brought up. In Islam's case(I'm not arguing for Christianity here) I dont think getting rid of Islam is necessarily the good thing. Keeping it there and absorbing it into Afrika would be the right thing to do (and I think thats what has been going on)
>
>PEace

Peace