>Okay. Except for the slaves, most of your examples are
>royalty or political leaders. However, do you have
>information as to occurences of conversion amongst the
>average Afrikan?

Varies with the time and period. I discussed the conversion of mali but also I will say that with ANY religion that actively SEEKS converts, the people who are at the lower levels of society or are downtrodden because of social/religious reasons (in traditional AFrikan systems social and religious go hand-in-hand) will often be the first to convert to anything new. The idea is that anyone that has a problem with the social order will be seeking ways of leaving/changing/resisting it and conversion to a new religion/ideology is often the first route taken. Chinua Achebe details in _ThingsFallApart_ how this occurred amongst the Igbo with Christianity during the early colonization of Nigeria.

>Also the slaves youre talking about,did
>they become Muslims to gain freedom in non-Afrikan
>lands?(North Africa, the Middle East)or amongst Afrikan
>Muslim slaveholders?

Both

>Also some information as to why the
>leaders themselves thought it fit to become Muslims?

I don't think anyone can definitely say "why" but I do think it is apparent that initially it was a byproduct of improving trade relations only to eventually lead to a more stricter practice of Islam because of the gaining of Islamic teachers.

>Was there an Islamic hegemony on trade?

No/Yes. I say "no" because Muslims did not "control" the Transaharan trade but they WERE largely the "middlemen" in the process. West Afrikans had the gold, North Afrikans had the salt. By the time of the late empire of Mali, I think that majority of the people involved in the trade were followers (in some fashion or form) of Islam.

>I have a hard time
>believing that ordinary people only converted for economic
>gain.

Well in the empire of Mali, the royalty converted so the conversion of their people is sure to follow. The strength of their conversion (as i said before) only increased with the increase of Islamic teachers and scholars in the land. Remember the people of MAli were inclusive of Islam, which means that they might accept religion, take what's good to them and leave the rest, but over time access to a more in-depth Islamic education causes the exclusion of past traditions.
>I assume they just added Islam/Christianity to their
>belief systems or just coexisted with it.

Exactly. Like I said traditional Afrikan systems are largely inclusive of other beliefs and systems, therefore it is only natural that people accepted or at the very least, tolerated foreign systems. However Islam/Christianity largely negate and in many cases actively try to suppress AFrikan systems as a whole.

>So for example Timbuktu was a place for Islamic learning but
>also Arabization? There were no Afrikan teachers there?

Islamic learning = Arabization.

I'm sure over time enough AFrikan teachers reared in Islamic rhetoric took over. Also considering that many teachers were from Egypt anyway (still plenty of indigenous Afrikans there), there were definite "Afrikan" teachers. It is documented that Mansa Musa on his return from the hajj brought several Islamic scholars back to Mali after his travels.

>Islam was taught primarily by Arabs? Arabs did not
>intermarry with the community?

With any belief system, factors such as "race," "ethnicity," kwk. become negligible. Once someone is reared in a belief system they easily become perpetrators of it. A simple example is the fact that many Afrikans in a America think like Europeans and might as well be dark-skinned white people.

Oh and yes some Arabs did intermarry with the community or at least bore children with community members.

>So this is no more in Afrika?

Depends where you are and who is in power. The hausa of West Afrika (Hausaland is part of several different West Afrikan countries) for instance still have many of their pre-Islamic traditions in tact despite the fact that they are largely Islamic as a group and have been for years. However, the fact remains that THEY controlled their own communities unlike the Arab/Muslim dominated Sudanese government that actively outlaws and suppresses native Nubian traditions such as wrestling matches.

Afrika is a big continent and the people's experiences can and do at times differ with with one anothers'.


>No thanks be to Arabs and Persians. Similar things have
>happened to Bengal and other non-Arab Muslim areas. Bengali
>children are kidnapped on the daily to work in Saudi Arabia
>and Bengali girls as well as Somalian girls are used as
>prostitutes in the Gulf. Most Bengalis aren't anti-Islam
>because of what Arabs do however, they just might not like
>Arabs.

>And I assume that is what is true in Afrika but youre
>telling me that Afrikan Muslims don't think that theyre
>different somewhat from Arabs?

I'm not saying anything. Some do, some don't. Overall isn't a goal of Islam to imitate the lifestyle of the Prophet Muhammad?
Also isn't another goal of Islam to see oneself as part of a larger Muslim brotherhood?

I'm sure a far removed group (far from a large Arab community) such as the Hausa would see themselves more different from Arabs versus East Afrikan Muslims who are closer in proximity (and blood) to Middle Eastern Arabs. I've definitely heard of cases along the Swahili Coast where claiming descendancy from Arabs is akin to having more white in one's blood in the Americas

>


>I can't speak for Christianity but Islam has syncretised
>well in India. I'm not sure if you feel this way because of
>the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afrika?(which I feel
>is also revisionist)So youre saying that throughout history
>that Afrikan way of life has been syncretised but at the
>same deleted by Islam?

Yeah somewhat in varying degrees.

>Indo-carribeans have bits and pieces of Indian culture
>within them but they wouldnt dare to call themselves Indian.
>That would be an insult. Besides the Maroons in Jamaica or
>Guyana(I might be missing some places)how could you say that
>Amrikan Blacks can call themselves African?
>Call-and-response and polyrhythms only takes you too far.

Languages, practices, ceremonies, thought processes, values, kwk.

all are evident in the daily lives of Afrikan descendants in the Americas. From my experiences INDIANS in the caribbean DO consider themselves INDIAN (see Trinidad or Guyana?). In Panama, there is a group of people who call themselves "Los Congos." the list goes on and on.

As far as in the United States, well many Afrikans might as well be dark-skinned white people but there are still elements of Afrocultural values that are evident among Afrikan Americans (e.g. communalism, expressive individuality, and as you mentioned the ever-so-popular practice of call-and-response).



>So Afrikan Muslims hate the fact that they are Afrikan?

No I didn't say that, absolutely. I stated that as a possible evolution just like having a negative outlook on one's traditions. Nevertheless I have seen the impact of Islam and/or Christianity causing a DEFINITE hate in the fact that one is a member of a traditional Afrikan group

>think you're essentialising them a little bit to much. I
>know non-Arab Muslims have complexes but they also have to
>face the reality of where they live. And what ever is the
>norms will have to compromise with their religion. This sort
>of victimisation of Afrikan culture is sort of misleading.

>Such a great culture wouldn't fight for representation
>amongst competing cultures doesnt make sense to me. I dont
>think that Islam or Christianity will overshadow Afrikan
>culture. Afrikan culture is not weak.

Whether or not Afrikan culture is "weak" is not the issue. (BTW it definitely ISN'T weak). The issue is whether one's following of Islam or Christianity will cause them to negate one's particular traditional Afrikan group belief systems. In some cases Islam and Christianity are successful and in some cases they aren't. Nevertheless, the exclusive nature of those religions makes the conflict, inevitable.

PEace

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks