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Subject: "Did I say that anywhere in the post?" This topic is locked.
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speaker
Member since Mar 31st 2004
651 posts
Thu Jan-24-08 06:25 PM

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50. "Did I say that anywhere in the post?"
In response to In response to 48
Thu Jan-24-08 06:29 PM by speaker

  

          

No.

Here's what I did say on the issue of Israel/South Africa parallels during the bullshit Annapolis conference:

"Let's discuss Israel/South Africa parallels in light of what's "on the table" at Annapolis. I think a lot of people who sympathize with the Palestinians are falling for a version of the "two-state solution" which is basically the same as what the apartheid government offered Black South Africans in the 1980s: an "independent" state consisting of unviable Bantustans, with continued exploitation of migrant labor. Most people do not know that, in 2007, white South Africans still have 80% of the arable land in South Africa, and overall apartheid didn't really die in economic terms. I think we should be extremely suspicious of the "peace process" allegedly unfolding in the West Bank and the other Occupied Territories on the same grounds.

A lot of people (including Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu) have made the apartheid/Zionism comparison, but I think there are four major similarities between the two conflicts that don't get discussed often enough.

1) The often-repeated argument that Palestinians are better off in the Occupied Territories and Israel than in the neighboring Arab states. White South Africans made (and still make) exactly the same argument, but about Blacks being better off in apartheid South Africa than in Black-ruled African states. See, for example, this blog post by a white South African retrospectively defending apartheid, in which he repeats this and similar arguments echoing those used by Zionists:

http://jamesbradfordpate.blogspot.com/2007/10/where-were-you-during-apartheid.html

In both cases, the claim is true by some measurements, but a) doesn't make the group in question any less oppressed by the state in question, and b) ignores the interventions of that same state in the neighboring ones harboring refugee populations, which affected how Palestinians and Blacks in Namibia, Angola and Mozambique were treated, respectively. We can also add c) the erstwhile support of the U.S. and Israel for allied Arab dictatorships (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia), and the erstwhile support of the U.S. and apartheid South Africa for Mobutu's Zaire, Idi Amin's Uganda, Emperor Boukassa's Central African Republic, and other dictatorships.

In the case of b), the apartheid South Africa/Israel parallels get really striking. Like Israel in 1967, South Africa invaded and annexed what is now Namibia (as a sort of Occupied Territory re-named Southwest Africa) during WWI, supposedly as part of the Allies' war effort (it was a German colony). They stayed there until 1988. Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the South African army made incursions into Southwest Africa to crush the independence group SWAPO, partly because it aided and harbored Black militants from South Africa. When the Portuguese withdrew from their African colonies in 1975, revolutionary Communist governments who supported South African Black militant groups came to power in Angola (the MPLA) and Mozambique (FRELIMO). Both groups harbored ANC members, and on these grounds South Africa invaded Angola and Mozambique repeatedly during the 1970s and 1980s. South African refugees in these countries were also terrorized by South African and U.S.-funded/armed proxy armies (UNITA and Angola and RENAMO in Mozambique) that attacked Black South African refugee camps and African National Congress militant strongholds. Cuba sent thousands of troops to Angola and Namibia to fight on the side of the MPLA and their South African allies, bolstering the apartheid government's claims that their brutal invasions and repression in the Bantustans were both part of the Cold War. (The U.S. supported all this, of course, with the Reagan and Bush I administrations calling Mandela's African National Congress a "terrorist organization" tied to Communism and the Evil Empire.)

Similarly, it was partly conflict with the Arab states, and partly conflict with those Palestinians who left the Mandatory territory to become refugees in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in 1948, that led to Israel's 1967 invasion and 1967-present occupation of chunks of each of those states. Like South Africa's attempts to crush Black South African militants operating out of Namibia, Angola and Mozambique, Israel has repeatedly invaded Jordan, Lebanon and Syria since 1967 in order to crush the PLO, which (like the African National Congress) was sponsoring attacks on military and civilian targets within Israel. Israeli and U.S. support for the Maronites in Lebanon, King Hussein of Jordan (who directed the massacre of thousands of Palestian refugees in 1970 Black September Episode), and Hosni Mubarak's police state in Egypt have been major factors in the shitty treatment of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. Notice that I didn't say "the only factor," just a major one.

2) Like Palestinians in Mandatory Palestine before 1948, and in the Occupied Territories since 1967, Blacks were a majority in South Africa. Like Jews in Israel, whites in South Africa were a majority in "white South Africa," which consisted of designated areas in which Blacks were kept a minority (like Arabs in Israel), but brought in and out from the Bantustans daily as temporary laborers. According to the apartheid government, the Bantustans were independent states, so keeping them all-Black and the rest of South Africa under white rule was defended as just, a sort of two-state solution. It just happened to be the case that whites had 90% of the arable land in South Africa as a whole (they still have 80% of it in 2007), and the Bantustans were essentially native reserves built on the most marginal land. Similarly, in the Palestinian-majority Occupied Territories, the Israeli settlers have claimed the best land. They control the major aquifers in the West Bank and the (Lebanese) Shabat Farms, for example, leaving many Palestinians dependent on inferior well water.

3) Also, in both cases there was/is a spectrum of opinion that shouldn't be reduced to what extreme ideologues say. Some South African Blacks wanted all whites to leave; others, like the ANC, wanted a single multiracial state with equal rights for all; and a sell-out fringe supported the apartheid government's supposedly "separate but equal" two-state solution. Hamas has made some statements analogous to the extreme South African groups, but now accepts the Arab League position of a two-state settlement on the pre-1967 borders. Fatah (the degraded remnant of the PLO) is a lot like the Bantustan leaders backed by Botha and Vorster, e.g. accepting a non-viable statelet with major chunks left to Israeli settlers, under economic strangulation. There have always been Palestinians who supported a single-state solution with equal rights for all (the late Edward Said was one of them). Yet they have been demonized as wanting "the destruction of Israel" when they call for a single state that is pluralistic (not a "Jewish state" OR an "Islamic state"), just as the ANC was accused of wanting to drive the Afrikaners into the sea.

At this point, though (and this is the major difference between Israel and South Africa) a two-state settlement on the pre-1967 borders is probably the best likely outcome, and the international consensus. So a pluralistic single-state solution, as in South Africa, is probably not in the cards. (And, looking at the extent to which the post-apartheid South Africa remains economically white-dominated, not taking that path may be a good thing.) So we're left with, at best, a more humane version of the "separate but equal" two-state solution advocated by the apartheid government in South Africa. What's being proposed at Annapolis right now is basically this minus the "more humane" part. (East Jerusalem, major West Bank settlements blocs and a separation wall beyond the 1967 borders in places is being assumed as a sin qua non by the Olmert government.)

4) In both cases, the oppressive arrangement was defended on geopolitical and security grounds: apartheid was supposedly part of the Cold War; the occupation was supposedly part of the Cold War until 1989, and since 2001 it has been part of the War on Terror. There was/is a kernel of truth in each of these global pretexts, which are related to U.S. involvement in both regions. Cuba and the Soviets did support the MPLA, RENAMO, SWAPO and the ANC to counter the U.S. and its major African ally; Iran does support Hezbollah and Hamas as a way of countering Israel, as it supports Shiite militants in Iraq to counter the U.S. The ANC and the PLO both were labelled terrorist organizations, and did support certain brutal actions that killed innocent civilians. But, as Tariq Ali has said of Palestinian suicide bombers vs. the Israeli army, "the boot of murder is overwhelmingly on the other foot." That was true in South Africa (2 million killed in the apartheid government's invasions of neighboring states in the 1970s/80s, untold thousands of Blacks in South Africa, vs. a few hundred whites), and it's true in Israel through the intifidas (tens of thousands killed in the Israeli invasions of Lebanon; a ratio of 3:1 Palestinian to Israel deaths even at the height of the intifadas, and much higher before and after them). It's also true of Iraq (bombing+sanctions+more bombing vs. car bombs and IEDs) but I don't want to get sidetracked into that.

In the end, you can't defend either apartheid or the occupation on the grounds of violent or stupid actions performed by those resisting it, because each involves institutionalized violence on a much larger scale."

  

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going to israel in few days.. [View all] , analoguegirl, Sun Dec-30-07 01:57 PM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
Triple edit
Dec 30th 2007
1
beh
Dec 30th 2007
4
+
Dec 30th 2007
6
      RE: +
Dec 30th 2007
7
      your anal, aqua.
Dec 31st 2007
9
      but if we are being anal then
Jan 30th 2008
99
If I had the opportunity to go...
Jan 20th 2008
39
      RE: If I had the opportunity to go...
Jan 21st 2008
40
RE: going to israel in few days..
Dec 30th 2007
2
RE: going to israel in few days..
Dec 30th 2007
3
The world is f*cked up everywhere really....
Jan 07th 2008
26
Will you be going to Palestine as well?
Dec 30th 2007
5
observe with your own eyes
Dec 30th 2007
8
RE: going to israel in few days..
Dec 31st 2007
10
have a safe and productive trip....
Dec 31st 2007
11
maybe go build with this inspirational group from "both" sides
Jan 01st 2008
12
They seem very emotional.
Jan 01st 2008
14
keep that decent southern hometrainin 'bout yoself
Jan 01st 2008
13
Have a safe trip and sing good songs
Jan 02nd 2008
15
walk around with a guitar singing habib
Jan 02nd 2008
16
if you didn't get this comment
Jan 27th 2008
79
observe..
Jan 03rd 2008
17
I wish had some of that good-good u be puffin,
Jan 04th 2008
18
you're not making sense
Jan 05th 2008
20
RE: Israel and Pakistan
Jan 05th 2008
21
      so is the U.S.
Jan 06th 2008
25
           RE: so is the U.S.
Jan 08th 2008
28
                not spiritual to you
Jan 09th 2008
30
                     Listen. The reason Israel exists is because of the ethnic cleansing
Jan 20th 2008
36
                          RE: Listen. The reason Israel exists is because of the ethnic cleansing
Jan 24th 2008
49
                               I assumed that by calling the place "spiritual" you were
Jan 26th 2008
72
                                    i don't pick sides
Jan 29th 2008
87
                                         I do.
Jan 30th 2008
101
RE: I wish had some of that good-good u be puffin,
Jan 24th 2008
41
      but was I wrong?
Jan 30th 2008
102
           RE: but was I wrong?
Feb 06th 2008
145
                yes sir. no beef tho, sista.
Feb 13th 2008
168
be the Johhny Appleseed of peace
Jan 05th 2008
19
bring me back some of that good falafel
Jan 06th 2008
22
There's one book....
Jan 06th 2008
23
The Lemon Tree is a fantastic read as well. nm
Jan 11th 2008
32
RE: There's one book....
Jan 24th 2008
42
Beautiful, Sis. Nothing wrong with going outside of your own
Jan 06th 2008
24
Power Degree, 1-14
Jan 07th 2008
27
RE: Power Degree, 1-14
Jan 24th 2008
43
safe travels
Jan 09th 2008
29
ok fuck it!!!
Jan 10th 2008
31
Look at this map
Jan 11th 2008
33
^^^True Story^^^
Jan 20th 2008
35
      Most of the world knows it, too
Jan 20th 2008
37
           i can't believe you guys are serious.
Jan 30th 2008
96
                the fuck are you mad about?
Jan 30th 2008
100
                Read Avi Schlaim's "Iron Wall" or "War and Peace in the Middle East"
Jan 31st 2008
117
                     iron wall says it all.
Feb 04th 2008
140
Forget that "peace"stuff.
Jan 12th 2008
34
Saudi Prince: If Israel quits Arab land, it could join Arab world
Jan 20th 2008
38
i leave in 7 days
Jan 24th 2008
44
      If you liked Aparthied era South Africa...
Jan 24th 2008
45
      Although the U.S. is no better
Jan 24th 2008
47
      untold wrongs don't make a right.
Jan 24th 2008
48
     
           ^^ Nice rationalizations and equivocations ..
Jan 25th 2008
53
                What are you talking about?
Jan 25th 2008
58
                And of course Sharpeville and Shatila
Jan 26th 2008
63
                     My Bad.
Jan 26th 2008
67
                          It's cool, peace
Jan 26th 2008
73
      RE: The United State of Usreal
Jan 29th 2008
91
      RE: If you liked Aparthied era South Africa...
Jan 27th 2008
77
      I hope you have an enriching experience
Jan 24th 2008
46
Links
Jan 24th 2008
51
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 25th 2008
52
can't nobody do badu like u do!! (c) joan from girlfriends
Jan 25th 2008
54
wow
Jan 25th 2008
55
just enjoy, take it in, breathe it in...
Jan 25th 2008
56
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 25th 2008
57
I think
Jan 25th 2008
59
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 25th 2008
60
Most ignorant statement ever
Jan 26th 2008
61
      RE: Most ignorant statement ever
Jan 27th 2008
74
           nino con una nariz marron
Jan 27th 2008
75
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 26th 2008
62
How can you perform in Israel? It's like performin in SA during aparthei...
Jan 26th 2008
64
RE: How can you perform in Israel? It's like performin in SA during apar...
Jan 26th 2008
65
      RE: How can you perform in Israel? It's like performin in SA during apar...
Jan 26th 2008
66
      Weak mind ^^^
Jan 26th 2008
68
           Try to confront the facts.
Jan 26th 2008
70
                what "facts" ?..you mean your opinion?
Jan 26th 2008
71
I think that you have the right attitude.
Jan 26th 2008
69
RE: I think that you have the right attitude.
Jan 27th 2008
76
      RE: I think that you have the right attitude.
Jan 27th 2008
78
           RE: I think that you have the right attitude.
Jan 28th 2008
80
                RE: I think that you have the right attitude.
Jan 28th 2008
81
we are your warm up band !!! :-)
Jan 28th 2008
82
RE: we are your warm up band !!! :-)
Jan 29th 2008
84
      RE: we are your warm up band !!! :-)
Jan 29th 2008
85
           RE: we are your warm up band !!! :-)
Jan 29th 2008
86
                kapara alecha....
Jan 29th 2008
88
                RE: we are your warm up band !!! :-)
Jan 29th 2008
89
                "bashing Israel" ?
Jan 31st 2008
103
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 29th 2008
83
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 29th 2008
90
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 29th 2008
92
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 29th 2008
94
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 30th 2008
95
      Do you think an artist of this caliber
Jan 30th 2008
97
may i ask,
Jan 30th 2008
98
      RE: may i ask,
Jan 31st 2008
104
           RE: may i ask,
Feb 06th 2008
149
lady i just saw the poster and this post
Jan 29th 2008
93
RE: lady i just saw the poster and this post
Jan 31st 2008
105
      RE: lady i just saw the poster and this post
Jan 31st 2008
106
      RE: lady i just saw the poster and this post
Jan 31st 2008
108
      RE: lady i just saw the poster and this post
Jan 31st 2008
109
RE: going to israel in few days..
Jan 31st 2008
107
another swipe from the press conference
Jan 31st 2008
110
RE: another swipe from the press conference
Jan 31st 2008
111
      a few more articles
Jan 31st 2008
112
      RE: another swipe from the press conference
Jan 31st 2008
113
      thanks for this
Jan 31st 2008
115
      RE: another swipe from the press conference
Jan 31st 2008
114
           RE: another swipe from the press conference
Jan 31st 2008
116
das country is tiny
Jan 31st 2008
118
RE: das country is tiny
Feb 01st 2008
119
      RE: das country is tiny
Feb 01st 2008
120
      RE: das country is tiny
Feb 01st 2008
123
      hi !
Feb 01st 2008
121
      RE: hi !
Feb 01st 2008
122
           RE: hi !
Feb 01st 2008
124
           RE: hi !
Feb 01st 2008
125
                RE: hi !
Feb 01st 2008
126
                     RE: hi !
Feb 02nd 2008
128
                          RE: hi !
Feb 02nd 2008
129
                               RE: hi !
Feb 03rd 2008
132
                               Give Thanks and praises !!!
Feb 03rd 2008
133
                               RE: hi !
Feb 03rd 2008
137
                                    the zshare for those on a mac that CAINT play the video interview
Feb 03rd 2008
138
      They have any Soul Vegetarian restaurants there? :-P
Feb 02nd 2008
127
      RE: They have any Soul Vegetarian restaurants there? :-P
Feb 02nd 2008
130
           RE: They have any Soul Vegetarian restaurants there? :-P
Feb 03rd 2008
131
      RE: das country is tiny
Feb 03rd 2008
135
RE: going to israel in few days..
Feb 03rd 2008
134
RE: going to israel in few days..
Feb 03rd 2008
136
RE: going to israel in few days..
Feb 04th 2008
141
RE: going to israel in few days..
Feb 06th 2008
148
u postin real caucasian right now
Feb 15th 2008
177
i hope you can find a way to share what you have learned
Feb 04th 2008
139
video of lud ..
Feb 04th 2008
142
      cool...we'll be looking for it
Feb 04th 2008
143
      RE: video of lud ..
Feb 05th 2008
144
Ms. Badu
Feb 06th 2008
146
^
Feb 06th 2008
147
uri avnery
Feb 07th 2008
150
Even though it's jacked up there,
Feb 07th 2008
151
riiight...lol
Feb 08th 2008
152
US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 11th 2008
153
      RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 11th 2008
154
           RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 11th 2008
155
                It's no different from Americans on the issue of 9/11
Feb 12th 2008
156
                RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 12th 2008
157
                RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 12th 2008
158
                     ^^Truth
Feb 12th 2008
159
                     RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 12th 2008
160
                          RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 12th 2008
161
                               RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 13th 2008
162
                                    RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 13th 2008
163
                                         revolution seems to be about war around there
Feb 13th 2008
169
                                         RE: US ghettos is Candyland compared to Palestine.
Feb 13th 2008
171
                                         now and days
Feb 15th 2008
178
                co-sign all of this
Feb 16th 2008
181
plus...
Feb 13th 2008
164
from http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/03en/jews/sec_jfk.htm
Feb 13th 2008
165
RE: plus...
Feb 13th 2008
166
RE: plus...
Feb 14th 2008
172
RE: plus...
Feb 14th 2008
173
      RE: plus...
Feb 14th 2008
174
thanks for posting this
Feb 15th 2008
180
Damn. Check out this brilliant South African theologian..
Feb 13th 2008
167
Lots of typos there, but I hope people watch this video
Feb 13th 2008
170
RE: Lots of typos there, but I hope people watch this video
Feb 14th 2008
175
      We could learn a lot from veterans of the struggle in SA
Feb 14th 2008
176
ORANGEandBLUE from OKP better never see this paragraph!
Feb 15th 2008
179

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