>*nods* I'm sure thats the case. I'm just sayin as well as
>those who say they are doing this to further their education
>(and there is *nothing* noble about that imho), there are also
>those who really ARE in love with america and what it stands
>for. *shrugs*

oh most definitely.
but from my experience, they seem to be a serious minority.


>I understand. The fact is...life is hard and painful. we must
>still make choices tho. either empowering ones or
>disempowering ones. and messed up as society is, its not SO
>restricted that we dont have any other option besides signing
>up to be a willing participant in an unjust war.

true. and i've heard stories of conscientious objectors to this conflict.

but again, you and i both are coming from a perspective that too many americans lack.


>this is true. very unfortunate. It was really shocking when it
>seemed that 9/11 was the first time a lotta Americans had
>really thought about all of this. its a complex issue. ur
>definitely right about that.

and that's what fostered the "we are the world" sentiment right afterward. the world thought that we would *finally* understand their pain.

but, of course, we wound up understanding nothing. and here we are.


>Its amazing to think ppl who consider themselves fairly smart
>could sign up to participate in a war and never once *think*
>that its about killing. I'm hearing what ur saying here...the
>perspective of the young person who signs up for this...and
>while I can imagine the hopelessness/despair ppl might feel
>and the desire to broaden their career prospects, i think its
>actually making a good case for why the onus SHOULD be on the
>troops and not the govt.

but, see, no one could predict 9/11 or any of that, really. they weren't signing up for a war, just the job.

outside of that, the military can't keep up their recruting goals these days. even in some of their most reliable areas. so no one is really "signing up" at this point. i read an article a few months ago that called it the "silent protest".

and don't forget the "2 weekends a year" reservists who got caught up. (although i don't know why you'd want to have the military as a hobby...)

if we disagree on anything, it appears it'll have to be this. i blame the folks in power. they give the commands, they are the ones who lied. as usual. everyone else got caught in the middle. and now they're just trying to get home.

ultimately what's being played on is the instinct of self-preservation.


>a future because of eduction, money, being able to travel? at
>the expense of the future/life of that person they have just
>invaded? that sounds incredibly fucked up to me.

it is.


>It comes back
>to the very distrubing notion that a Western life is 10 times
>more valuable than non-western one. If an American or
>Englishman dies we should all cry and curse that day. If a
>rwandan or cambodian or peruvian dies...ho hum, pass the
>butter.

yup.


>that could be a good idea *thumbs up*. I think the real
>solution tho is NOT to advocate war in the first place. The
>govt could employ a very charming and charismatic speaker to
>sell the idea of joining the military. then that young person
>might choose based on a lie or manipulation. I'd rather they
>watch full metal jacket or suhm and actually attend lectures
>on globalization, war, imperialism and how the West came into
>power...and THEN decide what they wanna do.

wouldn't that be a glorious day....

imo, this is all part of keeping up the front of democracy. they wanna call it a volunteer army, but it really isn't. it's a "backdoor draft" based on socioeconomic status.

>I hear u. so tell me. would u allow urself to be broken down
>Lex? to the point where u will sign up for something KNOWING
>its morally wrong/unjust? Could u be manipulated or schooled
>in such a way that ur future will then be in the hands of the
>government?

no. but a lot of that has to do with the fact that i grew up with someone who *did*. and i saw the effects of war and that mentality thru him (my father).


>my sense is that NO u wouldnt allow that to be the case. I
>will speak for myself and say I really don't think i can be
>broken down with any such mentality. And im no more different
>or special or strongwilled than anybody else.

just by virtue of thinking of things globally, you are special--at least in the context of western society.

but of course you wouldn't. and you wouldn't go into the military, either.

you saying that is the equivalent of a strong-willed, independent, confident woman going, "i wish some man WOULD hit me..." when she would never be with an abusive man in the first place.

batterers know who to go after.
so does the u.s. military.


>I'm not gonna
>condemn them but im not gonna make any excuses for the troops
>either...if they have chosen this...okay. its their choice and
>im not ANTI them. i am ANTI war. if they decide to participate
>in that tho, they should own their decision and not pussyfoot
>around the issue by making out that they are SO hard done by
>that it was literally their ONLY option. we are dying. ppl are
>suffering and starving all over the world. ppl are being
>enslaved and orphaned every day. It is *they* who could say
>they have no options. Whereas, living in America or England in
>2005...and signing up, saying its because u wanna travel or u
>want a degree and the military is therefore the ONLY
>option...hmmm ionno if im buyin that. feel me?

yeah i get you.

but a degree, if you want a halfway decent job w/ some benefits u won't have to pay out the ass for, really is no longer an "option". it's a requirement.

going from there, it's a little easier to put it all in perspective. for me, anyway.

but, overall, i'm on your side.


>>99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are
>weeded
>>out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.
>
>lucky them!

ha.

i'm just saying, they are experts in this. again, they know who to go after and who to leave alone.


>I think America as a global superpower, exists for a reason.
>Afterall there must be some evil beast in the world otherwise
>how do we measure our conscience? Globalization has taught me
>that for me to experience pleasure...a nice material life,
>fresh nikes, nice gadgets...someone is prolly suffering. its
>an imbalanced world we live in. so I guess we have to create
>the balance in ourselves with the choices we make.

excellent way of putting it. i agree.


Truthfully, I am cynical about the notion of there ever been a
>demonstration of balance in our external environment- where
>all lives are valued equally and there is no need for war cos
>we know better. I think realistically, all that will happen is
>the *United* States and *Great?*Britain will continue to
>thrive thru bullying, theft, warmongering, lies- whatever.
>Build and destroy and...unfortunately...*WE* will continue to
>help them do so.

we can't last forever. even britain is a shadow of her former self.

our behavior is not sustainable. the only question is whether the breakdown will come from within or without.


>are those REAL factors tho? or are they just limiting
>beliefs?
>'i have nothing else to do'
>'im black in America so im restricted'
>'college is not for me'
>'im too unskilled to do ____'
>'we are stagnating here'
>'the military is a decent alternative'
>
>we must consider these things. if its not real, it should be
>thrown out. the onus is ON-US.

indeed, indeed.

...and college really isn't for everyone. there are all kinds of factors that make that the case, and i'm sure i don't have to spell them out for you.

of course, location means a lot. baltimore ain't new york. *shrug* i can't claim to know what was going thru their minds.

i did ask my mother why my cousin decided to go into the navy, and she said that that was pretty much the only option he saw. i'm sure my dad gave him "the talk" he gives everyone he sees going in, but...


>peace Sis.
>
>I enjoyed building

the feeling's mutual

peace!
~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt