59. "RE: How did European norms, values, ideas, concepts," In response to In response to 54 Sun Dec-14-03 10:52 PM
what cultures? an african culture, a middle eastern culture, the chinese? a north american culture? you cant generalize without giving examples(evidence). europeans supposedly rediscovered these concepts, i dont know that id call the heliocentric model a concept though, through the islamic world? correct me if im wrong, but europeans werent exactly buddy, buddy with islam during the time of copernicus, the renaissance. so what makes you think europeans would go to the islamic world to get any scholarly information? what you have written is EXTREMELY general; absolutely no specifics. come on mr grimm, how can you say "big up for the info" when no info has been provided? im not tryin to start a fight, just that i expected more. i usually agree with everything you say, but come on man.
as for copernicus, he was the man to challenge--and eventually win the debate--the earth-centered view of the world. copernicus was a conservative, Polish cleric who came from an obscure East Prussian town. Where did he get the information from which he would change the view of the natural order of the universe? ptolemy, a man from egypt. so yes, a man from a region not called europe had the universe aligned correctly, supposedly. ptolemys view was considered the 'truth' by any educated man of the period, european or african vis-a-vis christian or muslim, if you want. now whether or not china had it correct before these men, i will not attempt to act as if i know this information. even if it is true, chinese values do not dominate the globe as of this moment, so it does not matter.
continuing, copernicus did not have any quarrels with ptolemys calculations and began his revision of ptolemys geocentric theory of celestial motion as nothing more than that, a revision. but by the time he finished his revision, copernicus had something on his hands that would have far reaching ramifications.
basically, what i am saying is that until you give me a name as to who had the universe aligned correctly before copernicus, i will stick with what i know. so as it stands, ive given an example of someone who supposedly had the universe aligned correctly that was not from 'europe', namely ptolemy, but you havent given me the name or names of the scientist from these other cultures who had it right. if the islamic culture youre speaking of are the turks, they had their fun in the sun. i dont say this as a slap in the face to them, it is simply the truth. the turks devastating loss to austria, kara mustafas fault, during the war of 1683-1699 basically ended their chance at being the culture to dominate social, cultural, political thought for hundreds of years to come.
now, does all that i have said have any relevance to the question? i dont think so. maybe it does a bit. but nit-picking at the fact that other cultures knew the sun was at the center of the universe does nothing to answer mr grimms question or those that i have posed. its been intellectual masturbation at its best.
also, no one has replied with an alternative system. dont get me wrong, im a liberal--so yes you may draw whatever conclusions about me you want, i obviously want you to since i told you--but simply complaining about this big ole corrupt system solves nothing unless action is taken. of course you already know this. its just that the whole intellectual masturbation that occurs on these boards appears to do nothing but let a lot of self-styled intellectuals shoot their load into a condom, no growth occurs from the release.