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Subject: "*sigh*" This topic is locked.
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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Mon Jan-24-05 06:38 PM

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8. "*sigh*"
In response to In response to 0
Mon Jan-24-05 07:36 PM

          

First of all, this isn't really a "proof," it is merely an argument. And despite Descartes's unquestionable greatness, this particular argument has not aged well.

>Possibly, the most logically sound proof I have encountered,
>as follows;

Go read some Euclid. Or better yet, Hilbert or Bertrand Russell. Just an aside.

>First, Descartes must prove that he himself exists, and he
>does so through his famous statement, "I think therefore I
>am", as it is a clear and distinct statement that is self
>evident, no proof beyond the act of saying it is required.

Well, that's a question of epistemology, not a tenet of logic.

>The reasoning behind this statement is as follows; if I am
>able to percieve my own existence from within, I must
>therefore exist.

And that's not reasoning, it's just repetition.

>Next, Descartes will discuss the relationship between
>physical objects, and himself. He is not certain of physical
>objects in his environment, but of his relationship to them.

And that much is very commendable. Descartes's relationalism is probably his greatest achievement, though it is still disputed today, in some quarters (I sit solidly on his side, though).

>In an experiment, Descartes takes a piece of wax, and allows
>it to melt. He then, observes what has changed, and what has
>not changed. Through his experiment, Descartes arrives at
>the conclusion that the wax, may melt in many different
>ways, or in inifinite ways. The state of change between a
>solid piece of wax and a melted piece of wax is infinite. A
>simple example of the infinite are numbers.

And here's where the age of the argument really begins to drag it down. In his time, it was natural to assume that the number, N, of ways in which a block of wax could melt is infinite. In fact, it is now known physically that N is not infinite! It is an enormous number, but finite nonetheless. This fact is a simple result of modern quantum mechanics, and it underlies all of our understanding of statistical thermodynamics. This is not to say that we "know" N is finite. There are likely some errors in the present formulation of quantum theory. Nonetheless, it is far more reasonable for us to assume N is finite.

But Descartes's argument is not about wax. It's about the nature of infinity in the physical world. In fact many of the quantities of the physical world, once assumed to be infinite, have been rendered finite by the modern quantum viewpoint. The extent of this is not yet completely clear. Many quantum systems admit finite bases (that is, a finite number of "states"). Many more admit "countable" bases (that's a designation that might be considered "in between" the standard definitions of finite and infinite), and some, truly, uncountably infinite bases. In fact, most systems admit more than one of the above, simultaneously. That is, the question of how many states a system might take, depends on how the observer chooses to differentiate them. And in fact, in the most mathematically rigorous treatments of quantum theory yet made, uncountably infinite bases are avoided like the plague. The problem is that they usually lead to logical inconsistencies, a sign that the "methods of distinction" which lead to infinite bases are generally unnatural, and amount to the philosopher forcing too much of his own opinions upon the system.

I doubt I'm making any sense. My point is that it now appears unlikely that any physical phenomena permit truly infinite variation. It seems more likely that the concept of infinity is an invention of man, and is forced upon the physical world now far too quickly.

>I am not detailing each point of study as I want to arrive
>at the proof of God as quickly as possible for the sake of
>this conversation, so please excuse me for leaving
>information out if you have already studied Descartes.
>
>Next, Descartes invents the idea of the "Evil Genius" which
>may be percieved as something that is decieving to his
>senses and himself. In order to disprove the existence of
>the "Evil Genius", Descartes is faced with the challenge of
>proving God's existence. He does this as follows;
>
>Human beings are finite beings, meaning, our physical bodies
>will eventually die.

Sure.

>Also, as finite beings, we are
>incapable of the infinite, yet we can be certain the
>infinite exists by observing a melting a piece of wax.

Again, that's not really true. We ASSUME the infinite exists, or rather, Descartes did.

>We
>can grasp the concept of the infinite, but we are incapable
>of it's excecution.

That seems to me to be a sign that it was a figment of our imagination all along.

>If you feel otherwise, please state how
>as human beings, we can excecute the infinite. Descartes
>concludes that God is a supreme being capable of the
>infinite.

And this is a HUGE leap! Even if we were to assume the physical existence of the infinite, there is absolutely no reason this requires a "being capable of the infinite."

>Do you find this to be sound proof for the existence of God
>that is clear and distinct?

Well, I think my view is clear.

>Furthermore, Descartes explores free will. Thus far, he is
>certain of Himself, as he can percieve his own existence; he
>is certain of GOD, as a supreme being capable of the
>infinite, and thus an infinite being.
>
>According to Descartes we always have the freedom of saying
>"Yes" or "No" to any question or supposed act.

Here is another big assumption. He was drawn to it culturally, not philosophically.

>We can be
>free from making error, by making clear and distinct
>statements about our situation and the consequence.
>Descartes feel's that we carry a reflection of the infinite
>within our free will, and thus, a reflection of GOD. As,
>there are an infinite amount of questions or acts that we
>can say "Yes", or "No" to. Therefore, even though we cannot
>excecute the infinite, as a sign of respect from GOD to us
>human beings, we are capable of facing an infinite, and any
>amount of questions/acts with a simple yes or no,

Wait a second! Didn't you just say that our lifespan is finite? How are we gonna answer an infinite number of questions?

>thus,
>making use of our free will, which reflects the infinite,
>and thus GOD.
>
>Peace.

There is, unfortuantely, a thin line between philosophy and spirituality. If your description presents an accurate picture of the Cartesian argument (and of that I'm not sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but note as you did that you omitted details to save space), then I can only consider this argument an act of faith, and not of logic.


  

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Descartes proof for the existence of God, [View all] , thoughtremedy, Mon Jan-24-05 04:29 PM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 24th 2005
1
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 26th 2005
13
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 26th 2005
22
      RE: excuse me but,
Jan 26th 2005
24
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 27th 2005
37
      I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Jan 27th 2005
43
      RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Jan 29th 2005
44
      dude, you need to read some Camus posthaste
Jan 29th 2005
55
      Camus and Sartre...
Jan 31st 2005
65
           understood n/m
Jan 31st 2005
68
      RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Jan 31st 2005
61
           RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Jan 31st 2005
66
                RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Feb 01st 2005
69
                     RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Feb 05th 2005
73
                          What the hell?!
Feb 05th 2005
74
                               RE: What the hell?!
Feb 06th 2005
75
                                    RE: What the hell?!
Feb 06th 2005
76
                                         Theology part of philosophy?
Feb 06th 2005
78
                                         RE: Theology part of philosophy?
Feb 07th 2005
81
                                              RE: Theology part of philosophy?
Feb 16th 2005
91
                                                   RE: Theology part of philosophy?
Feb 16th 2005
92
                                                        How am I "cryptic"?
Feb 16th 2005
93
                                                             Postmodernism = Bullshit,
Feb 16th 2005
94
                                                                  these guys ain't postmodernists
Feb 16th 2005
95
                                                                       RE: these guys ain't postmodernists
Feb 16th 2005
96
                                         RE: What the hell?!
Feb 06th 2005
79
                                              RE: What the hell?!
Feb 07th 2005
82
                                                   RE: What the hell?!
Feb 07th 2005
83
                                                        RE: What the hell?!
Feb 07th 2005
84
                                                             RE: What the hell?!
Feb 07th 2005
87
                                                                  RE: What the hell?!
Feb 15th 2005
90
                                                                       RE: What the hell?!
Feb 19th 2005
97
      RE: I won't pretend to speak for SH,
Jan 29th 2005
56
           okay...
Jan 30th 2005
60
                it's wrong, because your statement is not right
Jan 31st 2005
63
                     RE: it's wrong, because your statement is not right
Jan 31st 2005
64
                          an that's the crucial point
Feb 08th 2005
89
      inVerse, is that you?
Jan 29th 2005
51
           It is him.
Feb 06th 2005
77
                no, I'm not Inverse...
Feb 06th 2005
80
                     I was just joking
Feb 07th 2005
86
                          I realized this, but..
Feb 07th 2005
88
Why do you need proof?
Jan 24th 2005
2
RE: Why do you need proof?
Jan 24th 2005
3
Nice circular logic...
Jan 24th 2005
4
Nice Logical Self-Contradiction
Jan 26th 2005
14
Nice try
Jan 26th 2005
20
      hahahahahahaha!
Jan 26th 2005
21
      RE: Nice try
Jan 27th 2005
38
Faith
Jan 27th 2005
40
RE: Why do you need proof?
Jan 26th 2005
15
      RE: Why do you need proof?
Jan 26th 2005
31
      RE: incorrect context of "i think",
Jan 27th 2005
35
           Like I said, it's an assumption
Jan 27th 2005
41
                RE: a question,
Jan 29th 2005
45
                     what is it then if not an assumption?
Jan 29th 2005
48
                          RE: what about the act of thought?
Jan 29th 2005
49
                               RE: what about the act of thought?
Jan 29th 2005
50
                                    RE: interesting,
Jan 29th 2005
52
                                         The problem with Descartes
Jan 29th 2005
53
                                              RE: Thanks,
Jan 29th 2005
54
      RE: Why do you need proof?
Jan 27th 2005
42
Maybe its just over my head, but
Jan 24th 2005
5
RE: Maybe its just over my head, but
Jan 26th 2005
16
      I'm pretty sure it isn't logic
Jan 27th 2005
36
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 24th 2005
6
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 24th 2005
7
Look up GAGUT...
Jan 25th 2005
10
Sorry, dude.
Jan 25th 2005
12
      No dude, I'M SORRY...
Jan 26th 2005
28
           RE: No dude, I'M SORRY...
Jan 26th 2005
33
                that's harsh... lol
Jan 27th 2005
34
RE: *sigh*
Jan 26th 2005
18
      arright, I've got some time
Jan 26th 2005
25
           RE: arright, I've got some time
Jan 29th 2005
46
                RE: arright, I've got some time
Jan 31st 2005
62
RE: Descartes proof for the existence of God,
Jan 24th 2005
9
ease up on the clich
Jan 26th 2005
17
      ease up on the bullshit
Jan 26th 2005
26
      tell me...
Jan 26th 2005
29
      RE: ease up on the clich
Jan 26th 2005
27
           oh man I'm an idiot....
Jan 26th 2005
30
excuse me, but how can a candle melt in infinite ways?
Jan 25th 2005
11
RE: think of it,
Jan 26th 2005
19
      RE: think of it,
Jan 26th 2005
23
invents?
Jan 26th 2005
32
You are not Descartes.
Jan 27th 2005
39
RE: I know,
Jan 29th 2005
47
      No, dude, that's not what I'm saying...
Jan 31st 2005
67
What am I (God)?
Jan 30th 2005
57
Your just a bunch of memories
Jan 30th 2005
58
you being one of them
Jan 30th 2005
59
"I feel therefore I exist"
Feb 01st 2005
70
This is a romanticist's worldview!!!
Feb 01st 2005
71
      So be it
Feb 01st 2005
72
hematite, bitche!!!! and the animal & mineral kingdom, jahlove7
Feb 07th 2005
85

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