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40thStreetBlack
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Sun Sep-28-03 11:44 AM

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93. "out of context;discussing gradual evol vs punct equilib"
In response to In response to 79


          

The quote that you so aptly took out of context to further your agenda was specifically discussing the lack of transitional forms as would be expected from the old idea of gradualism in evolution; as you should know, Gould was one of the leading evolutionists bc he was one of the founders of the punctuated equilibria theory: that evolution largely moves foward in rapid bursts in small, isolated populations - as opposed to the old idea of slow, steady changes of entire populations w/ smooth gradual transitions from one form to another. THAT is the issue he was discussing in that qoute: that the fossil record points to evolution via punctuated equilibrium as opposed to gradual evolutionary transitions, *not* that there is no evidence of evolution in the fossil record.

Some more quotes from Gould that put this issue in the proper context, and render your argument null and void:

"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists - whether through design or stupidity, I do not know - as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups."

"The supposed lack of intermediary forms in the fossil record remains the fundamental canard of current antievolutionism. Such transitional forms are sparse, to be sure, and for two sets of good reasons - geological (the gappiness of the fossil record) and biological (the episodic nature of evolutionary change, including patterns of punctuated equilibrium, and transition within small populations of limited geographic extent). But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life’s physical genealogy."

"If you had given me a blank piece of paper and a blank check, I could not have drawn you a theoretical intermediate any better or more convincing than Ambulocetus. Those dogmatists who by verbal trickery can make white black, and black white, will never be convinced of anything, but Ambulocetus is the very animal that they proclaimed impossible in theory."

- so as johnny_domino said, GTFOOHWTBS.

As for some of the other supposed "problems" for evolutionists you mentioned:

- conscience,will, emotion, etc., likely arose with the development of language - the ability to formulate & communicate abstract thoughts & ideas. Either way, it is not a "problem" for evolutionists as you put it, bc it is not needed for evidence of human evolution.

- as for woodpeckers, that is :

"The unusual appearance of the woodpecker’s "tongue skeleton" has inspired creationists to use it as an example of a structure too bizarre to have evolved through chance mutations which produced functional intermediates. As the following information shows, however, the strange tongue of woodpeckers is actually just an elongated version of that found in all birds, and is in fact a perfect example of how anatomical structures can be shaped into new forms by mutations and natural selection."

- an explanation for how the bombadier beetle mechanism could have evolved is also .

So again, like johnny_domino said, these "problems" that you mentioned aren't doing anything to disprove them scientifically. However, there are many problems for creationists that cannot be scientifically explained, such as all of the clearly reptilian characteristics of the 'bird' Archaeopteryx, as well as the existence of the feathered dinosaurs Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx. And as I posted before, there is the problem of the sequence of the horse fossils:

"How can you explain the sequence of horse fossils? Even if you insist on ignoring the transitional fossils (many of which have been found), again, how can the unmistakable sequence of these fossils be explained? Did God create Hyracotherium, then kill off Hyracotherium and create some Hyracotherium-Orohippus intermediates, then kill off the intermediates and create Orohippus, then kill off Orohippus and create Epihippus, then allow Epihippus to "microevolve" into Duchesnehippus, then kill off Duchesnehippus and create Mesohippus, then create some Mesohippus-Miohippus intermediates, then create Miohippus, then kill off Mesohippus, etc.....each species coincidentally similar to the species that came just before and came just after?

Creationism utterly fails to explain the sequence of known horse fossils from the last 50 million years. That is, without invoking the "God Created Everything To Look Just Like Evolution Happened" Theory."

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"I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man." - The Dude

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Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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Disprove Evolution [View all] , tappenzee, Sun Sep-21-03 04:15 AM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
umm...
Sep 22nd 2003
1
umm...
Sep 24th 2003
49
      fuckin' classic!!
Sep 24th 2003
70
           excellent argument
Sep 24th 2003
71
yeah...
Sep 22nd 2003
2
one thing...
Sep 22nd 2003
3
AHHHHH!
Sep 24th 2003
72
GW Bush
Sep 22nd 2003
4
RE: GW Bush
Sep 29th 2003
99
TAP? You there?
Sep 22nd 2003
5
RE: TAP? You there?
Sep 22nd 2003
6
No... look at what you're saying
Sep 22nd 2003
8
      RE: No... look at what you're saying
Sep 23rd 2003
32
      RE: No... look at what you're saying
Oct 01st 2003
117
RE: TAP? You there?
Sep 22nd 2003
7
Jawnz...
Sep 22nd 2003
9
      RE: Jawnz...
Sep 22nd 2003
10
      Don't Stop
Sep 22nd 2003
11
           RE: Don't Stop
Sep 22nd 2003
12
                Keep Going
Sep 22nd 2003
14
                     RE: Keep Going
Sep 22nd 2003
15
                     RE: Keep Going
Sep 22nd 2003
17
                          Keep Going
Sep 22nd 2003
18
                               Keep going where?
Sep 22nd 2003
19
                                    I'm gonna give myself carpal tunnel....
Sep 22nd 2003
20
                                    why?
Sep 22nd 2003
24
                                         Incorrect
Sep 22nd 2003
26
                                              that's not an answer
Sep 22nd 2003
28
                                                   BECAUSE
Sep 22nd 2003
29
                                                        RE: BECAUSE
Sep 22nd 2003
31
                                                        no
Sep 23rd 2003
33
                                                             RE: no
Sep 23rd 2003
36
                                                        Morality has NOTHING to do with this discussion
Sep 23rd 2003
37
                                    Thank You Thank You Thank You
Sep 22nd 2003
23
                                    no problem
Sep 22nd 2003
25
                                    Hov!
Sep 25th 2003
77
                                    What makes you so certain
Sep 29th 2003
100
                                         works either way
Oct 01st 2003
116
      why does there have to be a creator though?
Sep 23rd 2003
35
           not only that
Sep 23rd 2003
38
God's creatures evolved...
Sep 23rd 2003
34
RE: Disprove Evolution
Sep 22nd 2003
13
RE: Disprove Evolution
Sep 22nd 2003
16
Please, EVERYONE
Sep 22nd 2003
21
One more time man... IT'S NOT RELEVANT
Sep 24th 2003
44
      SPEAK UP
Sep 24th 2003
59
           40thStreetBlack explained why over and over again.
Sep 25th 2003
80
                he can listen to Jimi; he just can't *hear* Jimi
Sep 27th 2003
88
fossil record show clear progression of horse evolution
Sep 22nd 2003
22
Here's a theory
Sep 22nd 2003
27
RE: Here's a theory
Sep 22nd 2003
30
I'm a Creationist...
Sep 23rd 2003
39
don't really need to prove anything
Sep 23rd 2003
40
So...
Sep 24th 2003
60
E. Coli bacteria
Sep 23rd 2003
41
hahaha
Sep 24th 2003
43
Even the experts overlook things
Sep 24th 2003
45
      hey, skippy
Sep 24th 2003
46
           Penicillin is a compound
Sep 24th 2003
54
           And as far as the two bit article goes
Sep 24th 2003
55
                well geez
Sep 24th 2003
56
                RE: And as far as the two bit article goes
Sep 24th 2003
57
                     RE: And as far as the two bit article goes
Sep 24th 2003
64
Faulty logic
Sep 25th 2003
76
      Actually E.coli
Sep 27th 2003
86
           Which begs the question
Sep 27th 2003
87
           works fine for simple single-celled microorganisms...
Sep 27th 2003
91
           the *primary* means of reproduction is binary fission
Sep 27th 2003
90
                conjugation is independent of reproduction
Sep 28th 2003
92
                     genomic evolution mapped in close relative of E.Coli
Sep 28th 2003
94
                          Ahh...
Sep 28th 2003
97
                               is that supposed to disprove the paper in some way?
Sep 30th 2003
103
                                    You presented the article
Sep 30th 2003
105
                                    I presented it as science showing evolution in bacteria
Sep 30th 2003
107
                                         RE: I presented it as science showing evolution in bact
Oct 01st 2003
113
                                              RE: I presented it as science showing evolution in bact
Oct 01st 2003
115
                                                   RE: I presented it as science showing evolution in bact
Oct 01st 2003
120
                                                        RE: I presented it as science showing evolution in bact
Oct 04th 2003
121
                                    you are so, so, so, so, right.
Sep 30th 2003
106
RE: Disprove Evolution
Sep 24th 2003
42
just to clear things up
Sep 24th 2003
58
Archaeopteryx: clear 'missing link' bet. bird &dinosaur
Sep 24th 2003
66
record shows horses evolved from one species to another
Sep 24th 2003
68
MY QUESTION...
Sep 24th 2003
47
they're working on it
Sep 24th 2003
48
      thanks...but...
Sep 24th 2003
51
           it doesn't necessarily HAVE to have worked out the
Sep 28th 2003
96
                HEY!
Oct 01st 2003
108
micro vs macro
Sep 24th 2003
50
this is why people choose to believe in creationism..
Sep 24th 2003
53
I am trying to maintain composure but...
Sep 24th 2003
61
      RE: I am trying to maintain composure but...
Sep 24th 2003
62
           RE: I am trying to maintain composure but...
Sep 24th 2003
65
           see post 66
Sep 24th 2003
67
           you can't be through
Sep 24th 2003
73
Same thing - one is just an extention of the other
Sep 24th 2003
69
      RE: Same thing - one is just an extention of the other
Sep 25th 2003
74
      whatever
Sep 25th 2003
75
      archaeopteryx is a bird, not dinasour
Sep 25th 2003
78
           semantics - it is still a clear transitional form
Sep 27th 2003
89
                still a bird
Oct 01st 2003
109
                     oh yeah before
Oct 01st 2003
112
                     Still a transitional form
Oct 13th 2003
122
Evolution exsists
Sep 24th 2003
52
RE: Evolution exsists
Sep 24th 2003
63
a qoute from stephen gould
Sep 25th 2003
79
GTFOOHWTBS
Sep 26th 2003
81
exactly
Sep 28th 2003
95
did you see the one
Sep 29th 2003
98
      nah I missed that one
Sep 30th 2003
104
RE: GTFOOHWTBS
Oct 01st 2003
110
      can't even argue with you
Oct 01st 2003
114
      RE: out of context;discussing gradual evol vs punct equ
Oct 01st 2003
111
we were created, then we evolved
Sep 26th 2003
82
Hey Debate Club members?
Sep 26th 2003
83
RE: Disprove Evolution
Sep 26th 2003
84
Maybe I can...kind've....softshoe in here a bit
Sep 26th 2003
85
101 and having fun
Sep 30th 2003
101
102 no thanks to you.
Sep 30th 2003
102
RE: Disprove Evolution
Oct 01st 2003
118
HEAR ME OUT
Oct 01st 2003
119

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