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> >THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE THAT CAN >READ! >GEEZ PEOPLE!
It is kind of funny watching how many circular dead-end arguments occur becuase people dont read or make assumptions. People let their gut reactions and emotions get in the way of productive discourse.
> >>however, i do not agree with >>Solarus' total and stark separation >>of Western and non-Western cultures, >>Especially with regard to love. >>ALthough I think that many >>aspects of Western culture greatly >>undermine love (particularly individualism and >>the separation of reason and >>emotion), i have personally seen >>"true love" flourish between Westerners >>(my parents!). i have personally >>seen two "Western" people become >>one. > >There is a great difference in >how this love manifest to >not only another but the >COMMUNITY. The two factors >you mentioned (individualism and...) both >make that "love" two totally >different phenomena. In the >West love tends to be >equated with "romance" with is >not in any way shape >or form "love." I said >the two types of love >are incompatible because they are >DIFFERENT in meaning.
I don't exactly understand your last sentence here. Although I think non-western and western love are different I do not think they are absolutes. I think there is some overlap. i like what you said about the involvement of the community in love outside of Western society. Before these modern western times, marriages and love were more than a bond between two people, they were also a bond between two entire familes even entire communities.
> >>Also, we mustn't forget >>that in many non-Western cultures >>(and still in many Western >>cultures as well), such as >>in many parts of India, >>for example, marriage and love >>are forced upon people, particularly >>women, who have little or >>no power over whom they >>are betrothed to. How does >>this fit into this alleged >>drastic dichotomy between western and >>non-western conceptions of love? > >This is a Western misunderstanding on >a tried and true practice >in many societies. India >has in own problems that >can historically trace back to >"western" entities (India is a >patriarchal society but the original >civilizations were MATRIARCHAL). For >now I'll leave that alone >and discussed arranged marriages.
I overlooked the role of the Aryan/"Indo-European" invaders in bringing patriarchy and patriarchal marriages to India (they brought the same patriarchy to Greece and basically every other matriarchal society they encountered ). You're right , India is a poor example. > >Westerners tend to degrade this practice >because of some foolish notions >of "freedom" that are lost >in the choice.
I wasnt saying that arranged marriages are any worse or better than western style "free" marriages. In fact i agree that the former have a much better success rate (success in terms of staying together, raising kids successfuly, and becoming a stable community 'pillar' for other families). However I suspect that many (by no means all) arranged marriages force people to be together who CAN't work it out, often resulting in oppression of the wife in patriarchal societies. I really will have to do more research on this though, i dont know enough about this specific topic to delve too deeply.
The >fact is that in these >societies one does not have >to pick and choose out >of a series of inadequate >mates because individuals are RAISED >to understand the roles they >play in these relationships and >society. They understand that >these relationships are PERMANENT the >only thing they can do >IS GROW. If you know >that you WILL be with >someone for the rest of >your life then you will >MAKE IT WORK.
Real love always makes it work (eff sounding corny its true). This is why i know my western (although hella left-field) parents are truly in love. BUT they had both been married to someone else before.....interesting. maybe they learned the true meaning after their initial missteps.
>Some people do experience this type >of commitment in the West >but the vast majority...
Agreed, Im glad you said "some people." I do think some people can cut through the Western restrictions and love for real. altho "some" in this case is a small minority. > Most Americans don't KNOW >who they are married to >and find out AFTER MARRIAGE. >I shake my head with >pity (then laugh) when I >hear pitiful statements like "Man, >she changed into a whole >different person AFTER we got >married." >YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON IN >THE FIRST PLACE!! This >shows that most of these >relationships are built on some >type of imaginary "love" (called >infatuation and lust) which dies >after people get "use" to >their mates. The statements that >I hear stemming from Western >people today are just pitiful >and ridiculous: "You not suppose >to be with only ONE >person for the rest of >your life." Why? >This attests to the same >comment I made earlier about >"falling in love." YOu >render yourself powerless. Noone >is saying you HAVE to >be with ONE person but >it is entirely likely that >you can. Most WEsterners can't >do it because they have >no discipline and sense of >civilization. To make such a >pitiful universal statement such as >the one stated above is >endemic of this childlike culture. > Non-western methods of living >ARE TRIED, TRUE and TESTED. >We are talking about practices >that have been used for >THOUSANDS OF YEARS and maintained >CIVILIZATIONS for the same amount >of years. Why are >they suddenly seen insufficient and >"oppressive?"
See above. i definitely dont think they are insufficient. Perhaps oppressive in some cases, although once again i will have to do some research to back that up.
This coming from >a people who are new >to the scene AND inexperienced >in HEALTHY relationships between men >and women. Lest we >look back only a hundred >(if we go back any >farther these relationship become even >more pitiful) years to see >how restricted women were in >their choices of a mate >and particularly how powerless and >oppressed they were in the >relationships. > >In modern-day Western society, women's "freedom" >and increased "power" greater than >ANY non-western woman (or so >is said)
Individualist power, not collective power. Western women started taking on some of the dysfunctions of western men in the name of equality! (non-western peoples assimilating do the same). I hope that doesnt sound too chauvinist, i didnt mean it that way. But women can be equal without stooping themselves to our level.
but how long >do marriages last? HOw >many single mothers are there? >How many people have been >married AT least twice? > >It's so sad. >
Agreed.
Peace.
--------------------- Thursday, June 17th Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom 6 Delancey Street (at Bowery) w/Addison Groove Project & Gutbucket 10PM~$13 DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY LIMITS" INSTOSNOW. Buy my shit.
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