>
>THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE THAT CAN
>READ!
>GEEZ PEOPLE!


It is kind of funny watching how many circular dead-end arguments occur becuase people dont read or make assumptions. People let their gut reactions and emotions get in the way of productive discourse.

>
>>however, i do not agree with
>>Solarus' total and stark separation
>>of Western and non-Western cultures,
>>Especially with regard to love.
>>ALthough I think that many
>>aspects of Western culture greatly
>>undermine love (particularly individualism and
>>the separation of reason and
>>emotion), i have personally seen
>>"true love" flourish between Westerners
>>(my parents!). i have personally
>>seen two "Western" people become
>>one.
>
>There is a great difference in
>how this love manifest to
>not only another but the
>COMMUNITY. The two factors
>you mentioned (individualism and...) both
>make that "love" two totally
>different phenomena. In the
>West love tends to be
>equated with "romance" with is
>not in any way shape
>or form "love." I said
>the two types of love
>are incompatible because they are
>DIFFERENT in meaning.

I don't exactly understand your last sentence here. Although I think non-western and western love are different I do not think they are absolutes. I think there is some overlap. i like what you said about the involvement of the community in love outside of Western society. Before these modern western times, marriages and love were more than a bond between two people, they were also a bond between two entire familes even entire communities.

>
>>Also, we mustn't forget
>>that in many non-Western cultures
>>(and still in many Western
>>cultures as well), such as
>>in many parts of India,
>>for example, marriage and love
>>are forced upon people, particularly
>>women, who have little or
>>no power over whom they
>>are betrothed to. How does
>>this fit into this alleged
>>drastic dichotomy between western and
>>non-western conceptions of love?
>
>This is a Western misunderstanding on
>a tried and true practice
>in many societies. India
>has in own problems that
>can historically trace back to
>"western" entities (India is a
>patriarchal society but the original
>civilizations were MATRIARCHAL). For
>now I'll leave that alone
>and discussed arranged marriages.

I overlooked the role of the Aryan/"Indo-European" invaders in bringing patriarchy and patriarchal marriages to India (they brought the same patriarchy to Greece and basically every other matriarchal society they encountered ). You're right , India is a poor example.
>
>Westerners tend to degrade this practice
>because of some foolish notions
>of "freedom" that are lost
>in the choice.

I wasnt saying that arranged marriages are any worse or better than western style "free" marriages. In fact i agree that the former have a much better success rate (success in terms of staying together, raising kids successfuly, and becoming a stable community 'pillar' for other families). However I suspect that many (by no means all) arranged marriages force people to be together who CAN't work it out, often resulting in oppression of the wife in patriarchal societies. I really will have to do more research on this though, i dont know enough about this specific topic to delve too deeply.

The
>fact is that in these
>societies one does not have
>to pick and choose out
>of a series of inadequate
>mates because individuals are RAISED
>to understand the roles they
>play in these relationships and
>society. They understand that
>these relationships are PERMANENT the
>only thing they can do
>IS GROW. If you know
>that you WILL be with
>someone for the rest of
>your life then you will
>MAKE IT WORK.

Real love always makes it work (eff sounding corny its true). This is why i know my western (although hella left-field) parents are truly in love. BUT they had both been married to someone else before.....interesting. maybe they learned the true meaning after their initial missteps.

>Some people do experience this type
>of commitment in the West
>but the vast majority...

Agreed, Im glad you said "some people." I do think some people can cut through the Western restrictions and love for real. altho "some" in this case is a small minority.

> Most Americans don't KNOW
>who they are married to
>and find out AFTER MARRIAGE.
>I shake my head with
>pity (then laugh) when I
>hear pitiful statements like "Man,
>she changed into a whole
>different person AFTER we got
>married."
>YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON IN
>THE FIRST PLACE!! This
>shows that most of these
>relationships are built on some
>type of imaginary "love" (called
>infatuation and lust) which dies
>after people get "use" to
>their mates. The statements that
>I hear stemming from Western
>people today are just pitiful
>and ridiculous: "You not suppose
>to be with only ONE
>person for the rest of
>your life." Why?
>This attests to the same
>comment I made earlier about
>"falling in love." YOu
>render yourself powerless. Noone
>is saying you HAVE to
>be with ONE person but
>it is entirely likely that
>you can. Most WEsterners can't
>do it because they have
>no discipline and sense of
>civilization. To make such a
>pitiful universal statement such as
>the one stated above is
>endemic of this childlike culture.
> Non-western methods of living
>ARE TRIED, TRUE and TESTED.
>We are talking about practices
>that have been used for
>THOUSANDS OF YEARS and maintained
>CIVILIZATIONS for the same amount
>of years. Why are
>they suddenly seen insufficient and
>"oppressive?"

See above. i definitely dont think they are insufficient. Perhaps oppressive in some cases, although once again i will have to do some research to back that up.

This coming from
>a people who are new
>to the scene AND inexperienced
>in HEALTHY relationships between men
>and women. Lest we
>look back only a hundred
>(if we go back any
>farther these relationship become even
>more pitiful) years to see
>how restricted women were in
>their choices of a mate
>and particularly how powerless and
>oppressed they were in the
>relationships.
>
>In modern-day Western society, women's "freedom"
>and increased "power" greater than
>ANY non-western woman (or so
>is said)

Individualist power, not collective power. Western women started taking on some of the dysfunctions of western men in the name of equality! (non-western peoples assimilating do the same). I hope that doesnt sound too chauvinist, i didnt mean it that way. But women can be equal without stooping themselves to our level.

but how long
>do marriages last? HOw
>many single mothers are there?
>How many people have been
>married AT least twice?
>
>It's so sad.
>

Agreed.

Peace.

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.