>-Wealth is the magnitude of your
>net worth, your net worth
>is your Asssets minus your
>debts/liabilities. So you may have
>1.3 million in cash, investments
>and Real Estate and have
>300k worth of liabilities in
>the form of mortgages, car
>loans and other forms of
>debt and be worth 1
>million bucks.

That's still not the same definition I read about. The way I read it, wealth is owning a business, land, not making payments on a mortgages and car loans. Actually owning it. Your definition makes wealth powerless,because is still falls back to how many dollars you have.

>
>That million is the sum of
>your wealth, it doesn't mean
>you have power though.

That's not the same definition I read about.

>Neither Al Gore or George Bush
>is a member of the
>Forbes 400 list of the
>richest people in America, but
>who has more power?

Al and George of course, because they are politicans and their fathers were politicans. Their power comes from the offices they held. Ask the same question about someone who is not a politican but has the same amount of money they have and the answer will be the people on the Forbes 400 list.

>
>According to various sources I've read,
>Al Gore's net worth is
>400k. (e.g. his wealth) Between
>neighboors growing up, colleagues, parents
>of ex-college classmates, my mentor,
>friends, acquantainces.....I KNOW I can
>name at least 30 people
>with a higher net worth
>then that. (they're not all
>white either)

If they have no power they are doing something wrong I can name 30 people with less then 80K a year that had plenty of influence and power.

>But none of them have a
>fraction of the power that
>Gore has. If my Mentor's
>daughter can't get into Princeton
>(her dream) then she's not
>going. Her parents loot and
>her two millionaire Uncles aren't
>going to help her, because
>they have money and no
>power.

Gore was a politican and his father was too any power he has came from that so I don't think it's a fair comparison.

>
>
>Money can be used to gain
>power, but you don't automatically
>have power by being wealthy.

It may not be automatic but if you don't have any power or influence with money you are doing something wrong.

>
>
>I grew up with people who
>pulled in 150k (less then
>5% of the population)
>or more in family income,
>they couldn't buy their way
>into colleges and some them
>STILL needed *some* financial aid.
>Sometimes because they have multiple
>kids in college, others because
>their parents didn't save well,
>etc. Point is that, just
>because you make that money.....doesn't
>mean life will be a
>cakewalk.

They didn't know what they were doing, I've seen people with less than 60K pull strings, it wasn't at the top schools but they were still able to pull strings.

>
>I even know kids whose parents
>pulled in 400k+ (Surgeons, Lawyers,
>VP's in major corps, etc)
>and who didn't get into
>their first choice school and
>weren't able to buy their
>way into schools for a
>couple of reasons:
>
>-Didn't have the connections

Money without connections, sounds like they don't know what they are doing.

>
>-It's not as easy as just
>making the money

It may not be easy but it can't be that hard either based on what I've seen from people with less.

>
>-400k isn't enough to buy your
>way into a school

Maybe not a top 20 school but I'm sure it can get you in a good one.

>
>I did however, have classmates who
>did buy their way into
>schools. In both cases their
>parents were alumni, you know
>how they did it?
>
>One guy's Dad built a 7
>figure student center for the
>school, and donated hundreds of
>thousands of dollars to the
>school. He also managed to
>wangle his way onto the
>board of Trustees.
>
>The other girl's Dad started a
>scholarship fund.
>
>The point is that the option
>of buying one's way into
>school, is only available for
>maybe 1% of the population,
>if that. Your parents can
>make 400k, but you'd better
>have the grades.

Maybe not into the top 20 but I can't really see it taking that much to get into a good school. Someone with 400k who can't pull strings is doing something wrong.

>Trust me, I went to high
>school with and lived around
>students who were crying their
>eyes out because Dad was
>going to be pissed that
>they didn't get into Princeton.
>
>
>The person who can waltz through
>life and have things handed
>to them, is rare indeed.


I've seen people pulling strings to save their butt when they were in trouble and using influnce to to make sure their kid graduated, this was all on a small level when you compare it to people making 400k so I don't see how this kind of clout becomes rare as your income increases.


>
>
>
>As for Loans, I don't see
>Banks comparing Business plans of
>Black Business vs. White and
>not giving loans if the
>White Business would see competition.
>(since to my knowledge, they
>don't have them on file
>anyway)

Maybe not every loan that comes across their desk but I'm sure it takes place alot. I'm not sure what mean by they don't have them on file since they have to keep records of race and who was accepted and who was denied a loan. Given that all it would take is cross referencing a database.

>
>Quick Note: Small Business Loans are
>VERY hard to get. Read
>any magazine aimed at Small
>Business Owners and you'll always
>see a magazine discussing how
>to get a loan or
>alternative ways of financing. The
>loans are difficult to acquire
>because when you all you
>have is an idea, you
>have no real assets for
>the bank to use to
>recoup their investment if the
>Business fails. (which 80% of
>new Businesses do) My point
>is that too many Black
>Business owners blame not being
>able to get a loan
>on Racism, when chances are
>they might not have gotten
>the loan if they were
>White.

I've read where it is hard to get a small business loan and alot of small business fail but the guy I was speaking about did get to start other business while being denied the funds for one that would put a black business closer to a Black neighborhood saving these people a long car trip to a white business. People need to make sure they are not making excuses for subtle racism.

>
>There is a local company that
>I do technical consulting for.
>They've grown their revenues from
>4 figures in 98, to
>6 figures in 99 to
>7 in 2000 and are
>on pace to triple 2000s
>numbers for this year. The
>company was financed through organic
>growth, credit cards and 2nd
>mortgages. Can't get a loan
>to save their lives. Why?
>No real assets. If the
>business crashes, all the Bank
>could get is maybe 40,000
>in computer equipment.
>
>The people trying to get the
>Loan? Two Ivy League White
>Guys, both of which have
>some connections in the local
>area with the top guys
>at companies I KNOW you'd
>recognize. Didn't help though.

Sounds like they did something wrong. A contractor who was in financial trouble was allowed to get more money until he finally went bankrupt and cost the bank President his job. Guess what he is doing today, same business in another state.

>
>The point is that Blacks shouldn't
>be so quick to Yell
>Racism when they don't get
>that Small Business Loan. For
>the vast majority of small
>Businesses, getting Bank financing isn't
>an option unless they can
>take out a loan against
>their house.

Yeah but people shouldn't be so quick to dimiss racism charges. This country has a long history of racism, so small business loans are not any different.

>
>I just finished a 6 month
>consulting engagement at a Billion
>dollar company that did just
>that, they would provide High
>Interest 2nd mortgages to small
>Business Owners.
>
>The best way to get a
>small Business loan is to
>have connections, I agree with
>you there. BUT, it's about
>connections, not color. (although you
>could say that Blacks have
>trouble making those connections because
>of racism) You need the
>connection so that you have
>someone in your corner that
>believes in you.

It has to be abut color if racism is preventing those connections.

>
>As for jobs, yes a lot
>of people get their jobs
>because they know someone. Hell,
>that's how I got mine!
>BUT, I don't think that's
>the same thing as having
>a connection and not having
>to work. The guy who
>hired me at my job
>got HIS job because he
>knew someone, I got MY
>job because I met him
>at a networking event and
>made a good impression. BUT,
>we still had to work
>our asses off. Unlike the
>other guy who we need
>to compensate for, because he's
>an idiot.
>
>The point is that people who
>have connections and can skate
>by without doing any work
>are few and far between,
>at least in my experiences
>in Corporate America. There are
>people like that around, but
>after a certain point, if
>you can't cut the mustard..you're
>out. Even the connection doesn't
>always help, I interviewed a
>kid for a client last
>summer, he only got the
>Interview because his Dad was
>on the company's board and
>good friends with the CEO
>(A Fortune 100 Pharmaceutical) he
>sucked so we didn't hire
>him.

That's not what I've seen. A guy was hired,and promoted when he could barely read. He had a guy underneath him doing all the work. Their was other guys who would lay out ,sleep during on the job...etc.

>
>Connections only get you so far
>and being wealthy and white
>isn't the free ticket it's
>made out to be.

But if your not wealthy and white how would you know? I've seen the advantages that come with it, these people didn't have to work, would get fired and rehired,they would quit and get rehired, screw up one job and get hired at another one, a whole staff that did nothing or next to nothing for years. The one thing all of these people had in common was they were white. Most didn't even have a lot of money.

>
>I agree with most of what
>you said in your post,
>I just think you overestimate
>the advantag of being White
>or being White and Rich.

I doubt it. If I was wrong we would see the same advantages and disadvantages across the board no matter what color.

>
>P.S. Forgot,
>
>Redlining:
>
>I've seen it White Neighboorhoods too,
>take a look at some
>of the Steel towns of
>PA. I think the Redlining
>issue needs to be looked
>at more as a Business
>issue then a racial one.
>It is a fact that
>people in poor communities aren't
>going to be as valuable
>to a Bank as people
>in wealthier ones......and Banks are
>Businesses after all.

The redlining in the Steeltowns in PA, was that before or after all the factories started closing? I think it's a mistake to ignore racism given it's long and documented history. This is not just taking place in poor communities.

>
>Furthermore, when you look at the
>sad, sad state that most
>Black owned Banks are in.
>(E.g. Carver Bank Corp, United
>Bank in philly) in terms
>of low or no profits,
>federal intervention because they don't
>have enough $ in deposits,
>extremely high default rates on
>Mortgages and Business Loans because
>of relaxed lending rules, etc.

I've read about that but I know about banks that are doing good too.

>
>
>It lends a lot of credence
>to the fact that just
>because a "White" bank doesn't
>want to operate in a
>Black community, doesn't mean it's
>racism...when you look at how
>Black banks fare in the
>same areas.

Not really, the devil is in the details and I'm sure their is a lot more below the surface. Excuses like these are used all the time to explain away racism. You always here the cop thought his life was in danger, after he kills an unarmed man. I have read articles where Blacks were singled out for something everyone was doing when it comes to credit.

>
>Because of things I've already discussed,
>I don't always think it's
>racism when they deny people
>from the community loans either.
>I'm not naieve enough to
>believe that there isn't a
>lot of racism, but I'm
>also realistic enough to realize
>that if you're living in
>a poor neighboorhood, the chances
>are good that you're not
>a good risk for a
>Business Loan, or maybe not
>even a Home Loan.

I agree and I understand someone from a poor neighborhood is more of a risk then someone from a middles calss neighborhood, but here is the problem, all of the evidence points to redlining taking place across income levels. So it's not just the poor neighborhoods.

>This is why Understanding the System
>is important, a lot of
>Brothas & Sistas try to
>get loans or start Business
>and get discouraged by the
>obstacles: Not getting financing, legal
>issues, etc. They may blame
>things on racism that are
>really just a part of
>doing Business, that would neccessarily
>change if they were White.

This is not true but I agree it is important to understand the system. It's not only brothas & sistas making these charges. Redlining has been investigated and reviewed by journalist and politicans if racism was not there and this was only Business no one could make it be there.

>
>
>Something I'd like to do at
>some point, is to provide
>financial/Business training to Blacks from
>the perspective of the organizations
>that they're dealing with. If
>you can understand the mindset
>of the Bank you're trying
>to get a loan from,
>you're in a much better
>position.


Sounds like a good idea it would help report more banks that are discriminating

>
>If you at least know that
>you're getting denied because of
>fair, financial reasons.......then you will
>know what you have to
>do to change your situation.
>It may entail moving to
>a nicer neighboorhood so that
>you have a more valuable
>house from which to borrow
>against, starting the Business in
>a wealthier part of town
>so that the Bank is
>more confident of your ability
>to succeed and THEN opening
>an establishment in a wealthier
>area.

If redlining was just about a Banks confidence in your ability to succeed middle class Blacks would not get denied loans more than middle class whites.

>
>I've always wanted to open Businesses
>in poor Black communities that
>could pay a good wage
>and provide on job learning
>opportunities that people could leverage
>into better jobs later on
>in life. BUT, I would
>start it in a wealthier
>neighboorhood first and then open
>up a location in a
>Black one.....it's just easier. PLUS,
>if the one in the
>poor neighboorhood is starting slow
>or not doing well......I can
>subsidize it with the profits
>from the more successful one
>


It's easier because of racism and all Black neighborhoods are not poor.

>
>As for investing in communities, the
>point of an investment is
>get a return. It's hard
>to get a bank to
>invest in the community if
>it's not going to see
>a return. I've observed the
>rejuvenation of poor neighboorhoods and
>I've watched my parents efforts
>with Community Development Organizations and
>I've noticed that when the
>Banks do make a serious
>attempt to invest in a
>community, it's usually with the
>help of outside organizations, (E.g.
>a Local Company, a local
>college, a private foundation, etc.
>AND the government.) those orgs
>are brought in to subsidize
>the investments so that the
>Bank sees a profit.
>
>On a side note, I've had
>mixed feelings about community development
>because it seems to push
>people out of the community
>who can no longer afford
>to stay. I think those
>efforts need to be managed
>better so that all of
>these people are presented with
>the opportunity to strengthen their
>economics so they can stay,
>and the ones that do
>move are the ones that
>didn't take advantage of the
>opportunity.

Sounds like gentrification which is a perfect example of racism. These poor Black neighborhoods are not worth investing in when it's Blacks who want the loan but when whites decide they want to move back to the city because the commute is too long then it is no longer bad business to invest in poor neighborhoods.

>
>That may be what is happening,
>but I'm just not sure
>right now.
>
>
>

Here is some of what I read concerning redlining.


There were many laws that came out of the Civil Rights era aimed at eliminating racial segregation and discrimination in all aspects of American society. Among them were the Fair Housing Act and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act guaranteeing minorities equal access to housing and to the financing to afford it. Widespread noncompliance with these laws was the order of the day and the nation continued its historical pattern of segregated housing as financial institutions denied mortgage loans to African Americans. This practice, known as redlining, is defined as the refusal by financial institutions to make mortgage loans to residents of certain neighborhoods because of the racial composition, income level of the residents or age of the housing stock.

The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975 was added to the arsenal of legal weapons with which to combat the discriminatory practice of redlining. The Act mandated the collection of demographic data on mortgage lending to better identify patterns of discrimination in lending. In 1977, Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act as a key element to outlawing redlining. The Act requires financial institutions to invest in all geographic areas served by their branches. The Act also requires lenders to meet the credit needs of all segments of the community.

Through monitoring compliance with these laws and through their own investigations, journalists are able to report on the level of access minorities have to mortgage loans and other kinds of credit.

With the coming of the information age, "information redlining," also called "electronic redlining," came a new way for financial institutions and information service providers to discriminate against minority and poor communities . Just as with mortgage loans, there is a pattern developing where minorities are systematically being denied access to information technology and the infrastructure that will deliver information services in the future. The regional telephone companies have been charged with redlining on the hightech information highway. The phone companies are systematically bypassing lowincome and minority neighborhoods as they plan and install the digital dial tone network to deliver "videoondemand" services.


As early as 1981, journalists were investigating charges of electronic redlining by the cable TV industry. It appeared that cable providers were selectively wiring to bypass large sections of minority communities threatening to deprive them of important services that cable promised to deliver. These services included security and fire alarm systems, electronic banking, shopping and news delivery.

Insurance redlining is another continuing practice of financial discrimination against minorities and the poor in America. This type of redlining is carried out by insurance companies that refuse coverage or charge more for covering properties in minority communities. Getting insurance coverage has been a historic problem for African Americans.


On July 20, 1994, the House of Representatives passed legislation focusing on insurance redlining.. See "Anti Redlining in Insurance Disclosure Act," H.R. 1188, 103rd. Cong. 2d. Sess., July 21, 1994.


More recent media exposés on the topic show that the new redlining is different from the old but that minorities are still getting shortchanged in banking, insurance and other economic activities. A 1995 investigative story by U.S. News & World Report came to this conclusion based on a sixmonth investigation of banking, lending, and home insurance coverage in poor and minority neighborhoods. The report was based on analysis of 24 million mortgage records, nine sets of banking and insurance industry data and 200 interviews in 12 cities. The investigation demonstrates that not much has changed. Minorities of all income levels are denied mortgages and home insurance coverage at more than twice the rate of Whites with comparable incomes.. "The New Redlining," U.S. News & World Report, April 17, 1995

By far, the most wellknown and successful investigative reporting on redlining was done for the "The Color of Money" project. The Atlanta Journal and Constitution won the 1988 Pulitzer Prize for this series on redlining in Atlanta's AfricanAmerican neighborhoods. Written by Bill Dedman, the series ran between May 1 and 16. Dedman used database reporting and help from university researchers to document how Atlanta banks routinely discriminated against middleclass AfricanAmerican applicants for housing loans.



The evidence is overwhelming





"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money