Seriously though, I told you I was a newb: I've just saw De La Soul for the second time a couple weeks ago, but didn't even know/remember Posdnuos' name (I read their biography today too, which makes it even more embarassing). So as for him, I will bow my head in shame, and agree wholeheartedly that he belongs up there too.

As for Aceyalone -- if Accepted Eclecctic is a legit window into his abilities, I would not even hold him up to Pac. Take "Hardship" or "I never knew" and compare them to Pac's "Pain". Lyrics: Pac is much more profound. Flow: Acey's flow is stuttering, and forced at points. Delivery: again, ignorant biased remark, but so far I think Pac's sounds like he's handing you his heart in his raps more than any other....But you didn't list "Eclectic" as his "goodness" so I'll oblige a pass because of my inexperience.

In response to the rest....

>being a white kid where all my friends idolize the dude,
>this can be difficult.
I love white people, my parents are white (I knew we existed on here somewhere)

>mc hammer is an important rapper. run and dmc are important
>rappers. wonder mike is an important rapper. debra harry
>is-well, nevermind on that.
>
>of course pac has more "skills" than all of them, but
>importance shouldn't be the litmus test for top ten.

True, those rappers are important. But we said one of (if not THE) most important and influential rappers, ever. First of all, mc hammer seems like a cheap shot at humour; he comes no where close to being as important or influential as Pac. Run DMC is arguably just as important and influential -- which is why they deserve to be involved when discussing greatness. I don't invest 100% of Pac's top-10 involvement because of his importance/influence -- but it does play a major role, since in regards to those two characteristics he is agreeably "the GOAT".

>penny for my thoughts?
>
>tupac-the most recognizeable and respected rapper within and
>outside the genre (until eminem came along-recognizeable at
>least.)
>
>i can't say if and how he spoke for people. i am an 18 year
>old white kid. he kinda missed me (us.)
I agree that songs like "White man's world" and "Gangster Party" didn't exactly hit-home with me either. But, as a fellow scholar I'm sure you would agree, songs like "Brenda's Got a Baby", "Dear Mama" or even "Pain" give us a window into a world that we understand, and should all learn out about.

>lyrically-he said alot. covered the spectrum topicwise.

This is another reason. He could make you cry with guilt and/or anger in one song, and cry with joy and/or sympathy on the very next one (see songs listed above); his work on the mic inspired ALL types of emotions. Not to mention the comfort listeners feel when it comes to coping with death; one-up on Biggie (and don't get me wrong, BIG is a hero) who was paranoid as hell about dying.

>just rhyming words and wordplay he wasn't that special. no,
> you dont have to be all scientific, but have some vocab and
>depth.

Pac was deep, I can't imagine otherwise.
Some of his work early on was agreeably unpolished. But, I've never thought of his rhyming as consistently sub-par. Again, I'm not familiar with like 5 artists on your top 13; but comparably speaking to the rest that I am familiar with, I think his rhyming and word-play definitley competes.

>he is a four mic mc-that got martyred and blown out of
>porportions. do i respect him? yes. would i respect him
>more if he didnt become hiphop kurt cobain? maybe. its my
>subconscious backlash i guess.

You're making good points, although I don't think people idolize Cobain just because he died -- people were just as obsessed with him and the grunge movement when he was breathing. With Pac, I think the martyr factor definitley gives him a boost on to peoples' shoulders; similar to Biggie. But, it's important to keep in mind that he has like 7 or so albums, while Biggie only had 3. Pac's work has been timeless, released through times like the "Cash Money" era a few years back, and whatever "Pop" era is going on now -- all while being successful and skillfully consistent. And the fact that he could make such material in a rushed few years, should be rewarded even further.
Some recent survey (anyhiphop.com?? is that even a cite?) which I'm sure you've come across, gives the top 50 MC's if they were given one full year to make an album. I bet Pac spent less time on his work than any other MC, ever. And even though some artists may be better "true freestylers", Pac's ability to work with such speed is just as credible.

>>posdnuos - dunno
>de la soul-anything, but especially early stuff.
Again, I am a reeetard. But anyways, I've been listening to 3 Feet High for the past week, and would put Posdnuos in the top ten -- but better than Pac???

I don't know enough to make a top 10 list, and exclude some of the artists on yours. But I'll get familiar to the stuff you reccomended, and hopefully find some new points to argue about j/k Thanks for the rec's.

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