of a significant portion of their prime...

I know people like Grant Hill come to mind, his college career helped boost him into the HOF even though his stellar NBA career was stopped in his prime. In some ways he was LeBron before Lebron. He still had a solid second half of his career as a role player and was a first ballot HOF'er.

I was recently watching a video were Kobe was saying Tracy McGrady could do everything he could and was taller. There was a time were Kobe vs T-Mac was a legitimate argument and a lot of people were on T-Mac's side. The injuries started coming in his late 20's and he was never the same. He still was a first ballot HOF'er. What's really crazy is T-Mac and Grant Hill were supposed to team up with Tim Duncan in Orlando but Tim Duncan didn't come when Doc Rivers said his wife couldn't fly on the team plane. Talk about what would've been a "super team".

Chris Webber is another guy I think of in this category. He came into the league as an athletic freak. When he played against the 92 Dream Team as a 19y/o on the 92 Select Team Larry Bird said "If that's what's coming into the league its time for me to go!" He came in with first ballot HOF'ers KG and Tim Duncan and was their equal and in some cases better. Multiple injuries early in his career robbed him of a lot of his explosiveness but he still had a great career even though he had to wait a few years to get into the HOF.

Who else?

Hell he did make a great comeback and still put up numbers, and was the first
player to come back from an ACL injury.


Shit had he not gotten injured he would have been even more nuclear

To a lesser extent, I guess you can also say Durant - but even accounting for the injuries, his career didn't exactly SUFFER from injuries, he just had less time to stack even more accolades on.

The obvious answer.

>The obvious answer.

...injuries. Which is slightly different than being considered a HOFer but having the potential to be event greater without injuries.

Absolutely. But there will be some bullshit ass semantics and analytics driven garbage about why he shouldn't be in. That man is a HOFer.

He was on the path before the injury.

He recovered to have a long career. But he only made 3 all star teams. He’s rarely played more than 50 games since that major injury. He’s been productive and had some great games and great moments post injury, but nowhere near HOF caliber player beyond those 2-3 seasons early on.

Pretty similar career to Penny, really.

the first guy off the bench he's in.

i do think the people voting may have sympathy as people in the know (ie writers, supposedly) understand how dominating he truly was at that position. there's a reason why he's universally loved throughout the league.

Which is insane because he's already one of the greatest.

Not even an NBA injury.

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In addition to all mentioned elsewhere

he was a 20&10 guy in Toronto but he gave that up to play 3rd fiddle to Bron and Wade

Seemed like he had a lot left in the tank. That really sucked.

resume if anything.

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Dude was a bad motherfucker before his back injury robbed him of his athleticism and lift.

Those young PF’s in the early 90s came out so strong. Coleman was never the same once the injuries started piling up after 5-6 years, and he had the irregular heartbeat issue looming throughout the rest of his career. Still remained an effective player because he was so skilled, but the athleticism was gone and couldn’t do it for 70-80 games.

LJ’s back injury took all the explosiveness away. Was still an effective player for awhile - tough defender, improved his shooting range, and adapted the best he could, but that explosiveness was what made him special early on.

Kemp got fat during the lockout and just never recovered really. He had a year or two where he was still pretty good even as a fat guy, but then he faded really quick. He probably had the longest run as a star of those 3…..he really had to fall off hard to not make the HOF - and sadly he did.

Comparable numbers to Cwebb, and CWebb is in.

Both won ROY, both 5 all nbas, 6 allStar appearances…

Both were beasts before the injuries

post playing allegations may keep him out but they eventually let Tim Hardaway in so who knows

.

>time for me to go!" He came in with first ballot HOF'ers KG
>and Tim Duncan and was their equal and in some cases better.

Webber wasn't quite that, but he was still great and yeah would've had an even better career without the injuries.

let alone Duncan.

all the players from that era that played against him give him props

in regards to how nasty of an offensive player Chris Webber was before his injuries, I'll give you that if you want to compare him being near the caliber of Duncan and Dirk if you want to focus only on the offensive side of the court, but Chris Webber in his prime wasn't close to the defensive presence Tim Duncan was.

The Dirk and Webber comparison is might be fairly close one because Dirk was pretty lacking as a defensive player and Webber had better ball handling and slashing abilities in his prime compared to Dirk, but trying to compare him to Duncan is a losing proposition IMO.

>in regards to how nasty of an offensive player Chris Webber
>was before his injuries, I'll give you that if you want to
>compare him being near the caliber of Duncan and Dirk if you
>want to focus only on the offensive side of the court, but
>Chris Webber in his prime wasn't close to the defensive
>presence Tim Duncan was.

Duncan was the better defender but nowhere near the scorer, ballhandler and passer.

>The Dirk and Webber comparison is might be fairly close one
>because Dirk was pretty lacking as a defensive player and
>Webber had better ball handling and slashing abilities in his
>prime compared to Dirk, but trying to compare him to Duncan is
>a losing proposition IMO.

No it’s not Webb was still a solid defender and didn’t have to be hid like Dirk. Dirk was just a better shooter.

Only in a world of alternative facts would someone believe that garbage. CWebb was an outstanding scorer and had great handles for a big guy. I loved CWebb going back to his Fab 5 days, but he was not seeing Duncan.

Head to head, Duncan averaged more ppg than CWebb. When it mattered Duncan elevated his play. He played in over 250 playoff games from age 21 through 39, averaging just under 21ppg. CWebb played in 80 playoff games from age 20-33, averaging under 19ppg. He averaged 20 ppg or more 4 times, with his high being 24.4. Duncan averaged 20ppg or more 10 times and averaged 24.4 or more 4 times. To say Duncan was a more efficient scorer too. To say he was ‘nowhere near the scorer’ as CWebb is a pretty ridiculous statement to make.

>Only in a world of alternative facts would someone believe
>that garbage. CWebb was an outstanding scorer and had great
>handles for a big guy. I loved CWebb going back to his Fab 5
>days, but he was not seeing Duncan.
>
>Head to head, Duncan averaged more ppg than CWebb. When it
>mattered Duncan elevated his play. He played in over 250
>playoff games from age 21 through 39, averaging just under
>21ppg. CWebb played in 80 playoff games from age 20-33,
>averaging under 19ppg. He averaged 20 ppg or more 4 times,
>with his high being 24.4. Duncan averaged 20ppg or more 10
>times and averaged 24.4 or more 4 times. To say Duncan was a
>more efficient scorer too. To say he was ‘nowhere near the
>scorer’ as CWebb is a pretty ridiculous statement to make.

Duncan was obviously better overall but Webber had higher highs and lower lows scoring plus the other offensive categories can’t be disputed I don’t know why people get in their feelings about this lol

>have to be hid like Dirk. Dirk was just a better shooter.

... a better winner.

>>have to be hid like Dirk. Dirk was just a better shooter.
>
>... a better winner.

I guess you missed the rest of Dirk’s career outside of the 1 year he did win lol

>I guess you missed the rest of Dirk’s career outside of the
>1 year he did win lol

the fuck are you even talking about lol

and they had to go get Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and JKidd and build a team of defenders around Dirk to hide his ineptness on that end

>all the players from that era that played against him give
>him props

oh, the college superstar, #1 overall draft pick, Hall of Famer was good? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!

>>all the players from that era that played against him give
>>him props
>
>oh, the college superstar, #1 overall draft pick, Hall of
>Famer was good? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!

.

Both stopped playing in their early 30s. Magic wasn't "injured" per se, but obv health related.

that is insane what you said about Doc Rivers not letting Tim Duncan's wife fly on the plane. WTF?!?!?!

dunking on mf's

Folks forget his resume spans what 12 seasons. Thats nuts.

Had he been able to play for another 3-5, what else would be on the resume?

I doubt he wins another chip, but still.

He wasn't as athletic of course, but he had the size and skills to transition to the front court and still make an impact.


And does LA land Barkley instead of Phoenix? Or a similar move?

Injuries got to Zeke at 29 years old for his last couple seasons, and he retired at age 32. If he would have had a few more years in his prime, plus a few years of productivite post-prime, he'd be a bit higher on the all time PG list...

they missed the playoffs even with him playing the whole season the year before the achilles and the frontcourt was in complete shambles outside of Rodman

if he goes out there and they suck, then how do we think of him?

at 29 that had a big impact. If his prime was extended then at a minimum he has some career stats that would go up, and he’d have already won rings at that point. Who knows, maybe he would have gotten traded to a contender as part of the deloading moves the Pistons were making and has an impact through the 90s…

but thats probably what would have happened

however, i invite you to consider what happens with a fully healthy but early-twilight Isiah in 94

they suck, but not bad enough to draft Grant Hill

no Grant Hill means no Ben Wallace

we know what that means lol

>of a significant portion of their prime...
>
>I know people like Grant Hill come to mind, his college career
>helped boost him into the HOF even though his stellar NBA
>career was stopped in his prime. In some ways he was LeBron
>before Lebron. He still had a solid second half of his career
>as a role player and was a first ballot HOF'er.
>
>I was recently watching a video were Kobe was saying Tracy
>McGrady could do everything he could and was taller. There was
>a time were Kobe vs T-Mac was a legitimate argument and a lot
>of people were on T-Mac's side. The injuries started coming in
>his late 20's and he was never the same. He still was a first
>ballot HOF'er. What's really crazy is T-Mac and Grant Hill
>were supposed to team up with Tim Duncan in Orlando but Tim
>Duncan didn't come when Doc Rivers said his wife couldn't fly
>on the team plane. Talk about what would've been a "super
>team".
>
>Chris Webber is another guy I think of in this category. He
>came into the league as an athletic freak. When he played
>against the 92 Dream Team as a 19y/o on the 92 Select Team
>Larry Bird said "If that's what's coming into the league its
>time for me to go!" He came in with first ballot HOF'ers KG
>and Tim Duncan and was their equal and in some cases better.
>Multiple injuries early in his career robbed him of a lot of
>his explosiveness but he still had a great career even though
>he had to wait a few years to get into the HOF.
>
>Who else?

Dude really looked he was going to be an absolute monster for years to come. But he's spent so much of his career dealing with injuries. It's kind of a shame that he's afterthought at age 34. I had no idea that he's on the Celtics right now.

Pretty similar careers and career arcs, and even their games - 2 of the best dunkers ever who developed solid perimeter jumpers. In their best years, both had HOF PG’s in their primes feeding them.

>Pretty similar careers and career arcs, and even their games
>- 2 of the best dunkers ever who developed solid perimeter
>jumpers. In their best years, both had HOF PG’s in their
>primes feeding them.


Post Seattle

I'm old enough to remember when he was considered the better of the original twin towers

cmon.

Yes I know I’m biased


>of a significant portion of their prime...
>
>I know people like Grant Hill come to mind, his college career
>helped boost him into the HOF even though his stellar NBA
>career was stopped in his prime. In some ways he was LeBron
>before Lebron. He still had a solid second half of his career
>as a role player and was a first ballot HOF'er.
>
>I was recently watching a video were Kobe was saying Tracy
>McGrady could do everything he could and was taller. There was
>a time were Kobe vs T-Mac was a legitimate argument and a lot
>of people were on T-Mac's side. The injuries started coming in
>his late 20's and he was never the same. He still was a first
>ballot HOF'er. What's really crazy is T-Mac and Grant Hill
>were supposed to team up with Tim Duncan in Orlando but Tim
>Duncan didn't come when Doc Rivers said his wife couldn't fly
>on the team plane. Talk about what would've been a "super
>team".
>
>Chris Webber is another guy I think of in this category. He
>came into the league as an athletic freak. When he played
>against the 92 Dream Team as a 19y/o on the 92 Select Team
>Larry Bird said "If that's what's coming into the league its
>time for me to go!" He came in with first ballot HOF'ers KG
>and Tim Duncan and was their equal and in some cases better.
>Multiple injuries early in his career robbed him of a lot of
>his explosiveness but he still had a great career even though
>he had to wait a few years to get into the HOF.
>
>Who else?

The man really did only play two seasons before being out there three straight years. And while he did show promise during those two seasons, he wasn't like some of the other "didn't/don't quite make the HOF" players like Roy or Penny. Those guys had 4-6 great seasons under the belt before the injuries derailed their careers. It's hard to extrapolate with Oden.

i never really seen that outta Oden but maybe i'm wrong or forgetting.

that part is so much of greatness.

when you get to people that could’ve made the HOF I feel like you’re really splitting hairs

but it is fun to speculate sometimes.

i think most of the actual HOF'ers already mentioned are good examples though.

i mean, at worst their stats would be greater if not for injuries, if not their actual game/skills.

>when you get to people that could’ve made the HOF I feel
>like you’re really splitting hairs

Not an injury, but Robinson’s military obligations robbed him of at least 2-3 what could’ve been highly productive seasons. Then came the back injury in 96-97, which definitely accelerated his decline in productivity and health. Not sure how much of a difference it makes with him bc we saw his peak in the early-mid 90s - which was incredible - but ultimately not as dominant as the Dream’s, Shaq’s, or Duncan’s. Still, he was insanely well-rounded and dominant in his prime.

‘Nique gets more and more underrated as the years pass on. He had what was always a career ending rupture of his Achilles in early ‘92. Had he not gotten injured, would he have made the Dream Team. I remember being incredibly pissed Laetttner and Mullen made it over him at the time. He still came back and was a prolific scorer. But not quite the same and got bounced around before finishing out his career in Greece. He had some epic battles with Bird’s Celtics in the 80s - despite having a terrible supporting cast.

>Not an injury, but Robinson’s military obligations robbed
>him of at least 2-3 what could’ve been highly productive
>seasons. Then came the back injury in 96-97, which definitely
>accelerated his decline in productivity and health. Not sure
>how much of a difference it makes with him bc we saw his peak
>in the early-mid 90s - which was incredible - but ultimately
>not as dominant as the Dream’s, Shaq’s, or Duncan’s.
>Still, he was insanely well-rounded and dominant in his prime.
>
>
>‘Nique gets more and more underrated as the years pass on.
>He had what was always a career ending rupture of his Achilles
>in early ‘92. Had he not gotten injured, would he have made
>the Dream Team. I remember being incredibly pissed Laetttner
>and Mullen made it over him at the time. He still came back
>and was a prolific scorer. But not quite the same and got
>bounced around before finishing out his career in Greece. He
>had some epic battles with Bird’s Celtics in the 80s -
>despite having a terrible supporting cast.

I’m pretty sure he was Jokic 1.0


>of a significant portion of their prime...
>
>I know people like Grant Hill come to mind, his college career
>helped boost him into the HOF even though his stellar NBA
>career was stopped in his prime. In some ways he was LeBron
>before Lebron. He still had a solid second half of his career
>as a role player and was a first ballot HOF'er.
>
>I was recently watching a video were Kobe was saying Tracy
>McGrady could do everything he could and was taller. There was
>a time were Kobe vs T-Mac was a legitimate argument and a lot
>of people were on T-Mac's side. The injuries started coming in
>his late 20's and he was never the same. He still was a first
>ballot HOF'er. What's really crazy is T-Mac and Grant Hill
>were supposed to team up with Tim Duncan in Orlando but Tim
>Duncan didn't come when Doc Rivers said his wife couldn't fly
>on the team plane. Talk about what would've been a "super
>team".
>
>Chris Webber is another guy I think of in this category. He
>came into the league as an athletic freak. When he played
>against the 92 Dream Team as a 19y/o on the 92 Select Team
>Larry Bird said "If that's what's coming into the league its
>time for me to go!" He came in with first ballot HOF'ers KG
>and Tim Duncan and was their equal and in some cases better.
>Multiple injuries early in his career robbed him of a lot of
>his explosiveness but he still had a great career even though
>he had to wait a few years to get into the HOF.
>
>Who else?

But he had no explosiveness to his game, like what I imagine he did have when he played within or for USSR.

If he were more committed to his fitness level, he could have went down even higher on the all-time list.

He probably still is playing at a dominant level when he gets to MIA. He was really good there, but even by then he was the clear number 2. My young eyes assumed he would pick up and play at the level he did with the Lakers. But that vintage Shaq never made it out of LA. And he likely doesn't have that sad drop-off when he gets to CLE/PHX/BOS.

What if Kobe doesn't blow out his Achilles? Didn't he make the All-NBA team that year? He was balling. I'm not saying he plays well into his 40s, but it was clear he cut his career short because he couldn't play anything close to his legendary level after that injury.

The KD injury is an interesting situation to ponder. In '19, he was on his way to one of the top playoff runs in history (like 30PPG on 50/40/90 and his usual blend of rebounding, defense, and playmaking).

While his peak now isn't too far off what it was before the injury, his body just won't let him play 65-75 games like he did pre-Achilles. Is KD able to push Brooklyn past MIL in that series in '21 if he's in top shape? We'll never know...

In retrospect, Kahwi's entire career radically shifted from the one injury caused by Zaza. I don't remember how his thigh issue tied into the ankle injury. But regardless, if he's healthy (and the Spurs beat GSW), Kawhi gets a chip against on the of GOAT teams and may never have left San Antonio. That would have sucked for Toronto, but with San Antonio's roster building, he might still be playing for a contender, although retooling after Manu and TP would have been an adventure.

One that hasn't been mentioned is Bill Walton. He was on a fast track to legendary status, but his body failed him.

Grant Hill another. He made a remarkable transformation into a stopper, but that's a shift he shouldn't have had to make. He was such a force on offense.

This last player doesn't really fit here, but I always wondered what would have happened with Richard Dumas if he hadn't gotten messed up with drugs. Dumas played on the '93 Suns team that made The Finals. He seemed to have quite the career laid out before him, but he got suspended and never came back? Or at least was never the same player again. Tragic.

We don't like to think about this, but he was almost on the verge of retirement when he had to sit out the bulk of two seasons because his ankles were wonky. It hasn't been a major issue since, although he likely plays more games throughout the rest of his career because his body is less susceptible to the ankle rolls that seem to cause him to miss 8-12 games a season.

Plus, maybe he becomes Super Saiyan Steph a year or two sooner.

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when he had to retire due to HIV even though he did try to briefly comeback and play later it wasn’t the same