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Topic subjectThe New York Knickerbockers 2002-23 Season......
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2772274
2772274, The New York Knickerbockers 2002-23 Season......
Posted by Castro, Wed Sep-21-22 09:37 AM
This is a make or break year for the front office, the coach and the players. After a tumultuous season which saw us get out the gate fast, then have Thibs basically submarine what was left of Kemba Walker's career, things went south, until injuries and pressure from the front office forced Thibs to play the youth, and we saw a bright future in flashes from Immanuel Quickley, Obi Toppin, Quentin Grimes and Jericho Sims. RJ Barrett emerged as a strong #2 scorer with a huge upside. However, All star Julius Randle regressed, making horrible decisions with the ball, showing terrible leadership skills, and eventually being shunned by the fans.

The summer was dramatic - the Knicks signed Jalen Brunson from the Mavs, bringing a solid shooting playmaker to run the team. I personally advocated for Dejounte Murray, as Brunson is being thrown into a lions den of point guards in the East. The Knicks were then tied most of the summer to another hometown kid, Donovan Mitchell, who was seen on social media attending numerous events in NYC, but ultimately, Danny Ainge's greed led us to dodging a bullet, as Mitchell, although a talented scorer, would have meant the Knicks would have a starting backcourt with two 6 foot guards.

So that business is all behind us now. Derrick Rose reported to camp in fantastic shape, saying he is "his rookie weight and the healthiest I have felt in a long time." Don't fuck that up Thibs!

The enigmatic Cam Reddish has had a whole summer to work out with the team and gives us a versatile scoring wing off the bench who could possibly start.

Evan Fournier returns from a busy summer leading France to the EuroBasket finals and will now be paired with Brunson as a starter (unless Thibs actually embraces the youth movement and decides to start Grimes).

Mitchell Robinson has a new contract, is healthy and has been working on free throws (and other drills for shots he will rarely if ever take in an NBA game, although his three point stroke looks better than his work at the charity stripe).

The Knicks other notable acquisition was Clips backup center Isaiah Hartenstein, who can ball and will be a good change of pace when Mitch picks up his two fouls in the first 6 minutes of the first quarter.

So Thibs is on the hot seat. He has the horses to make the playoffs, but he has to develop a rotation that gives the younger players time and keeps his vets fresh (see D Rose). The offense is going to run through Brunson who will have a strong shooter in Fournier, a slasher in Barrett and a do it all star in Randle to keep happy. The offense often stagnated when the ball was in Randles hands, but hopefully they get Julius on the move, where his size and mobility makes him dangerous.

With proper coaching, this is a 50 win team, that could pose problems in the second season. Our biggest issue is going to be bigger guards bullying on Brunson. Our second unit is going to be spectacular, with Rose, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Hartenstein and Sims terrorizing teams. Because Thibs has been notoriously limited with his rotations, this is all conjecture. He can realistically play 10, but is inclined to play 7. The days of Pat Riley and KC Jones are long gone. Bench flexibility and having players you can plug into the starting lineup is what makes for a successful run. I want to see Thibs make the jump too, but I am not optimistic about it. If he trends towards his past coaching habits, I hope Leon Rose and Wes pull the plug early and get a coach who understands the pieces.

2772290, 41-41 10th seed one and done
Posted by Cenario, Wed Sep-21-22 01:18 PM
2772303, if things continue in the pattern of last season, yes.
Posted by Castro, Wed Sep-21-22 06:10 PM
But Rose can't let Thibs waste another season...so I think it either goes great for Thibs or he gets the early hook.
2772369, East is gonna be tough. lotta teams are .500+ on paper
Posted by Cenario, Thu Sep-22-22 12:53 PM
I think the knicks fall to the bottom of the middle pack teams
2772398, What I like about this team is the depth. If Thibs plays ten, they will win more.
Posted by Castro, Thu Sep-22-22 06:37 PM
If he does his normal shit, they strugggle to win 41.

I think our depth surpasses most of the teams in the East, we just don't have the MEGA MEGA star like other squads.
2784918, 41-30. Quite unexpected. Jalen's on the mend.
Posted by Castro, Wed Mar-15-23 03:24 AM
Relatively soft schedule to end the season. (Wizards, Pelicans, Pacers twice), so we could go into the post season with some momentum.

We were peaking, then Jalen got injured. Silver lining is Deuce has caught fire and hopefully this keeps him in this so called 9 man rotation. I think Milwaukee is the only team we struggle with in the east if we are at full health. Julius has shown some signs of reverting to dumb ass Jules again, and this is part of why Brunson is so transformative for this team- he has refused to defer to Randle unless it made sense in the moment. I still think he shoots too much for a PG, but I can't argue with the results both from his production and from how Randle plays when he is on the court.

Josh Hart has taken our bench from solid to downright dangerous. They score in bunches, and recently have been erasing leads taken by opponents and extending our leads in the second half. The window is JUST opening for this team, and I am hoping Thibs doesn't fuck it up.
2772359, Now that we have a legit PG.. i expect good things...
Posted by My_SP1200_Broken_Again, Thu Sep-22-22 11:01 AM
...but if we shit the bed again I won't be surprised either

2772361, I'm going to watch for four reasons this season
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Sep-22-22 11:32 AM
1) How well Thibs manages to allow Brunson to run the offense and shift the offensive focus away from Randle

2) If and how much Barrett will continue to improve on the offensive end

3) If the team manages to improve on team defensive schemes

4) Perhaps most importantly of all, if Thibs will actually let the young kids play and try to develop their talent for the team's long term success.

Given how completive the East is overall, a play-in slot is what I realistically expect.
2772701, I'm hoping Mitch had added something to his offensive game..
Posted by My_SP1200_Broken_Again, Mon Sep-26-22 09:49 AM
..i know he's been working on his post and 3pt shot ..he's to much of an explosive athlete to remain just a lob guy ..that being said, i think Brunson will pair nicely with Mitch and they'll both have career seasons

2774133, Starting Five: Brunson, Fournier, Barrett, Randle and Robinson
Posted by Castro, Sun Oct-16-22 06:12 PM
The investment in RJ and Mitch's development over the last few years is going to start paying real dividends this year. Brunson is working hard to show he is worth the nine figure investment made by the front office. Fournier had a great year amidst the dumpster fire ignited by Thibs, and continued that into the summer, leading France to the Euro finals. Randle already looks a ton better with a real point guard running the show, moving the ball and making better decisions when he has the ball, but the eye ball metrics -body language and hustle are the key, or as Jules from Pulp Fiction asked, "DOES HE LOOK LIKE A BITCH?". So far he doesn't: Jules and the rest of the starting five outscored their opponents 266-200 in the minutes they were together on the floor during the preseason, best in the league (PRESEASON!)

Our bench is vicious, point blank. A rested Derrick Rose, a muscled up IQ, a ready for stardom (and starters type minutes) Obi Toppin, new Outside/In big man Isaiah Hartenstein and rebound/Oop machine Jericho Sims give the Knickerbockers a monster second unit that can run, defend and score in bunches.

Question Marks: Quentin Grimes - we saw enough last season to know that this kid can be a starter and possible allstar...but health health health. Hoping the trainers can get him to the point where these nagging injuries are addressed. If he is healthy, our 2 spot is set. Cam Reddish is a bigger question mark, and although he is capable of doing things we see A-list all stars doing its inconsistent not to mention that nagging injuries continue to derail him. It was the same story in Atlanta. Stay tuned.

Can I get a run? Deuce McBride is my guy. Deuce was supposedly Thibs' guy. But the young'un is stuck at fourth on the depth chart for point guards. He defends better than all of them, but shooting and the skills to be a starting PG seem to be in his grasp one game and out the next. But at this point, he is way better than Frank Ntilikina was so I hope he gets more time on court this year. Feron Hunt was an absolute monster during summer league, but until the Cam situation is resolved, I think its going to be hard for him to get any real time.

Thibs: the beard ain't changing shit. Win or take the New Haven line north in December.
2774387, Despite the brutal loss
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Oct-20-22 08:52 AM
you have to be impressed in how much faith Thibs had in Cam Reddish. Pretty shocking how many minutes he played, especially in the fourth quarter and overtime. It seems Thibs is slowly turning a new leaf in terms of trusting the kids. Or that could speak to his lack of faith in Fournier. Probably a mixture of the two.

Outside of the obvious pain of seeing Barrett struggle, it was even more painful to see Robinson still not learn how to not pick up the still ticky tack fouls he's been getting since he was a rookie.

To be completely honest, I didn't watch a good grip of the game. A mixture of being disgusted with the lack of three point defense and the fact I wanted to watch Abbott Elementary. The constant open looks the Grizzlies had in the first half was giving me high blood pressure. It appears solid perimeter defense in terms of defending the three and more importantly to keep the opposing team from penetrating and breaking the Knicks down will be a struggle. Thibs is going to have to earn his paycheck to keep that at a minimum.
2774423, I don't think it was brutal. They are a possible Finals squad
Posted by Castro, Thu Oct-20-22 02:08 PM
We knew with Brunson that defense is where he will need to work work...well day one he has to guard Ja. LOL.

Cam is a monster....but can we get 60-70 games of him playing these minutes? That is what will get him the deal he wants since they didn't pick up the extension.

Hartenstein did his thing when called upon....but I would like to see Jericho on the floor, and perimeter D is an issue because Thibs won't play Deuce.

We have the pieces to be good, but Thibs still plays checkers.
2776232, Road trip...five games in seven days
Posted by Castro, Mon Nov-14-22 03:34 PM
We are REELING. Thibs is on the ropes. We just gave up 145 points to OKC. Josh Giddy looked like Magic Johnson and Shai looked like George Gervin.

2776235, I said about two weeks into his rookie season...
Posted by Dstl1, Mon Nov-14-22 03:47 PM
Josh was ALREADY one of the best passers in the league. No one cares, cause...OKC. I get it. The kid is SKILLED. Shai is a smooth criminal. It makes me nauseous that Thunder fans are missing a whole season of those two plus Chet.
2776241, I was watching F1 racing yesterday
Posted by Numba_33, Mon Nov-14-22 04:10 PM
because I assumed the Knicks would win this game in easy fashion. I saw box score alerts from my phone that the Knicks were down at the half and game up over 70 points after being up by either 10 or 12 at the end of the first quarter. The alerts I got on my phone kept on getting worse and worse.

I just learned that this Josh kid actually got a triple double in addition to SJA completely schooling the Knicks. That triple double is making me borderline as angry as if I sat down and watched the game. Bad offense is one thing I can somewhat understand because of the relative lack of talent the Knicks have. The terrible defensive schemes, especially at defending three point attempts, is a whole other matter altogether. That to me shouldn't happen on a consistent basis. I wonder if this season will be even worse than last season. It's hopefully too early to panic, but terrible defensive effort aggravates me to no end.
2776267, 145-135 games push me further into being a Dead Ball fundamentalist
Posted by Dr Claw, Tue Nov-15-22 04:10 AM
we used to clown games for those kind of scores
2776273, yup. and they continue to make rules so offenses can rack up more points
Posted by Cenario, Tue Nov-15-22 10:16 AM
i hate the take foul penalty.

2776285, Its regular season, Doug Moe shit. It don't happen in the spring tho
Posted by Castro, Tue Nov-15-22 01:29 PM
and thats when it matters.

But the real shit on this is Shai is cooking EVERYONE. He gave the Celtics 37 last night too.
2776270, Knicks got 27 guards. What’s the plan?
Posted by Beezo, Tue Nov-15-22 08:30 AM
2776286, Get rid of the coach and then rotate the guards to see who works best
Posted by Castro, Tue Nov-15-22 01:30 PM
Brunson is obviously going nowhere. Everyone else is on the block.
2776400, The last two wins have been quite impressive
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Nov-17-22 10:30 AM
Even more so since based on the box scores that RJ Barrett was abysmal on the offensive end. Unfortunately, it appears this team is going to be dependent on the success and failures of Julius Randle. I was hoping Brunson would be a primary offensive threat, but I have a feeling the fact he's a liability on the defensive end is going to make that less of a possibility.

I'm saying all this without watching the games for the most part, so I could be wrong.
2776456, Based on what I'm seeing online
Posted by Numba_33, Fri Nov-18-22 02:07 PM
it appears the Knicks are fielding calls to trade Derrick Rose and Immanuel Quickley. Wonder if the Knicks will be willing to trade them both. Rose I understand because of his age and the fact he's getting limited time off the bench. Personally, I'd be a bit saddened to see Quickley go because of his age, but he's been very inconsistent, so I could somewhat understand wanting to trade him. One for sure has to go.
2776549, i would like to see DRose getting somewhere he can shine.
Posted by Castro, Sat Nov-19-22 04:18 PM
IQ should not under any circumstances being traded. But again, this is about rotations...Thibs being inflexible creates the logjams. the only reason we have seen the rotation change was because of Grimes being injured.
2781558, James Dolan shames himself once again.
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Jan-26-23 03:48 PM
link: https://gothamist.com/news/msg-ceo-james-dolan-has-meltdown-about-facial-recognition-criticism-vows-to-keep-scanning-opponents


MSG CEO James Dolan has 'meltdown' about facial recognition criticism, vows to keep scanning opponents

Jake Offenhartz
Published Jan 26, 2023 at 1:26 p.m.

Modified Jan 26, 2023 at 2:15 p.m.

Madison Square Garden boss James Dolan vowed to continue using facial recognition technology to blacklist his corporate adversaries, dismissing the efforts of state lawmakers to stop the practice as an unconstitutional waste of time.

In a rambling and defiant interview on Fox 5 on Thursday, Dolan lashed out at his myriad critics, railed against bail reform, and threatened to withhold booze at a future sporting event if state regulators don’t drop their opposition to his surveillance practice.

“Our values are important to us, too. The Garden has to defend itself,” he said. “People say you’re too sensitive, you shouldn’t defend yourself, it’s something out of 'The Godfather,'” he continued, before invoking the famous Michael Corleone quote: “It’s not personal, it’s strictly business.”

Dolan has come under fire for his use of the surveillance technology to remove attorneys working for law firms with active litigation against MSG Entertainment, a holding company he runs that also oversees Radio City Music Hall and the Beacon Theatre.

In one highly publicized case, a mother chaperoning her daughter’s Girl Scout troop was removed from a Christmas Spectacular performance after cameras matched her face with a database of photos of lawyers working for banned firms.

But as he faces public indignation, lawsuits, state legislation and an inquiry from New York Attorney General Letitia James, Dolan is digging in and doubling down on his grudges, as he has often done in the past.

On Thursday, he previewed an escalation with the State Liquor Authority, which has threatened to revoke his right to sell alcohol if he doesn’t reverse the controversial policy.

“They’re being extremely aggressive, and they're saying 'we're going to take away your liquor license,’ so I have a little surprise,” Dolan said. “We’re going to pick a night, maybe a Rangers game, and we’re going to shut down all the liquor and alcohol in the building.”

He then held up a sheet of paper featuring the face and phone number of SLA Chairman Sharif Kabir, which he said he would circulate to fans during the booze-free night.

“In the United States, there's a thing called the Bill of Rights,” he said. “This is just about owning property.”

A spokesperson for the SLA said MSG was under investigation for an apparent violation of the Alcohol Beverage Control Law, which requires license-holders to allow the general public access to their premises.

“All establishments licensed to traffic in alcoholic beverages by the State Liquor Authority are subject to and are expected to comply with the same laws and obligations, whether they are a small business or a multi-billion dollar corporation,” SLA spokesperson Joshua D. Heller said in a statement.

Dolan, who has not spoken directly to the press for years, also addressed the possibility of Madison Square Garden losing its lucrative tax break, brushing it off as an unlikely move by the state Legislature. “Of course they don’t want to do that,” he said.

He went on to accuse the lawmakers who have challenged him of ignoring larger issues he says are plaguing the city, such as bail reform and high taxes.

“What really needs to happen is the public needs to tell these politicians and the SLA to start working on things that matter to us,” he said. “Like law enforcement. Making it safe in our streets. Getting our taxes in line. Stop people from leaving New York and ruining our city.”

State Sen. Brad Hoylman-Sigal, whose district includes Madison Square Garden and who introduced legislation restricting facial recognition technology, said the interview was unsurprising, given the “petty and vindictive behavior that we've all come to expect from Dolan.”

“We're witnessing the meltdown of one of New York City's most notorious billionaires,” he added.

This story has been updated to include comment from the New York State Liquor Authority
2785119, James Dolan shames himself once again.
Posted by Numba_33, Fri Mar-17-23 03:08 PM
link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/james-dolan-s-latest-villain-move-hiring-a-pi-to-tail-his-nemesis/ar-AA18Jgzr


James Dolan’s Latest Villain Move: Hiring a P.I. to Tail His Nemesis
Story by Matt Stieb • 4h ago

Just as the New York Knicks and Rangers are finally performing well at the same time, owner James Dolan has decided to bring all the attention his way yet again. According to the New York Times, Dolan, who owns Madison Square Garden in addition to the teams that play there, had a New York State Liquor Authority investigator tailed amid an ongoing feud with the agency’s board.

Charles Stravalle, a former NYPD captain who is now a part-time investigator for the authority, noticed in recent weeks that the driver of a black Chevrolet had been following him around all day and parked outside his Queens house armed with a camera. After Stravalle called the cops, they pulled over the man. In a court filing this week, MSG Entertainment, the holding company for the stadium and the New York teams, admitted that it had hired a private investigator, claiming that this was a “common and lawful practice.”

The decision to have a low-level state employee followed comes amid Dolan’s larger beef with the State Liquor Authority. Over the past year, MSG Entertainment has used facial recognition to ban attorneys of law firms that have sued him from his venues across the city. According to the New York State attorney general’s office, the ban potentially impacts “thousands” of lawyers across some 90 law firms. Even after the authority began investigating MSG over the ban and other alleged transgressions, Dolan has refused to back down. Last week, he sued the authority’s board, alleging it threatened to ban alcohol at his games, and he has maintained a defiant stance in interviews. “This isn’t gonna bother me because I’ve been sober 29 years,” Dolan said in January. “I don’t need the liquor.”

To outside observers, Dolan and his company’s antics may seem petty and counterproductive. But as Knicks fans know all too well, Dolan is neither afraid of being annoying or of micromanaging aspects of his business that would be better off left alone.
2785122, I know the Buss' are wack-a-dools
Posted by obsidianchrysalis, Fri Mar-17-23 04:40 PM
But I wouldn't trade the Buss family drama in the Jim Buss/Magic days for Dolan at all. He's a truly unlikeable man.
2785284, I hope Dolan's NY State dealings
Posted by Numba_33, Mon Mar-20-23 10:14 AM
don't become a distraction for the team. Things could potentially get hotter for Dolan as either NY State could actually make Dolan pay city property taxes for MSG or the State Liquor board could actually pull the liquor licenses for Dolan's properties because of the moronic surveillance nonsense he's pulling. If either of both occur, I don't doubt for a second he'll be in the press more to try to make himself to look like a victim and potentially smear State elected officials.

The worse thing about Dolan is that the Knicks and Rangers make him way too much money for him to even think for a second of selling either franchise just based on revenue he gets for TV rights.
2785286, i'm not a knick fan now bc of his comments on staying silent during
Posted by Cenario, Mon Mar-20-23 12:54 PM
the george floyd situation.

i mean it wasn't a tough decision anyway
2785555, He is THEE worst.
Posted by Castro, Fri Mar-24-23 09:49 PM
He is the curse on TOP of the curse, but he is a product of his environment. A piece of flotsam that ended up at the top of the glass.
2785857, 44 wins with 7 games to go.
Posted by Castro, Wed Mar-29-23 10:27 PM
I am not concerned about the 50 wins, because I stated that was with proper coaching. We gave away several games because Thibs didn't want to play certain guys.

Now we are on the cusp of the second season, and we are a fifth seed. Nice.

Randle just went down with an injury tonight, and Brunson just came back from his second injury stint in the past two months.

Meanwhile Jrue put up 51 and Giannis put up a 38 point triple double and neither one of them played as many minutes as RJ or Grimes. Those few minutes add up over the course of a season, and they are the price of Thibs neverending hubris.

Now, Obi Toppin should be starting at the four, but played 17 minutes off the bench after Jules left the game. The brilliance of Grimes and IQ led the Knicks to win, but these judgement lapses, for whatever contrivance that gets mumbled to the press, will be the Knicks undoing to what could be a magic run in the post season. And the critics will say, "THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE" when its really, "HE IS HIM. AND HE IS THE SAME HIM THAT HE WAS ELSEWHERE."

All that to say, even at this juncture, we took a step forward, and I don't take it for granted. It has been a blast watching the games this year. Hopefully we get another month or so.
2785879, Some of the 'blame' on Brunson getting hurt
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Mar-30-23 09:06 AM
if you want to use the word blame falls on his style of play. His hesitation dribble and prevalence of scoring with some regularity in the paint is going to lend to him getting some bumps and bruises along the way as result of defenders coming in contact with him. Don't get me wrong; I am fully appreciative of what Brunson brings to the table as the Knicks have needed a capable point guard for the last 20-25 years; I'm just saying I'm not surprised to see him get hurt given how he plays. I dunno how much of that you can put squarely on Thibs.

To your larger point of Thibs playing guys for too many minutes, I agree with you 100%. I am grateful the Knicks will seemingly avoid the play-ins so the players will get some relative amount of rest at the end of the season.

It does hurt to see both Randle and Brunson have to nurse injuries right towards the end of the season though.
2786153, Still on Thibs because he has set Brunson up as scorer instead of facilitator
Posted by Castro, Sun Apr-02-23 08:11 PM
If Thibs mandated Brunson being more of a facilitator, I think he would not creat so much wear and tear....but the reality is, Brunson is perfect for Thibs no set sets as a scorer, so as a result of the circumstances, he is going to play to his strengths as a scorer. In a short term sense, it benefited us, but long term is he going to be solid or is he going to break down like a Robert Pack or D. Rose?

I am going to try to enjoy this run in the playoffs without thinking about it too much and I hope he remains healthy...
2786342, Hopefully Thibs and/or Brunson
Posted by Numba_33, Tue Apr-04-23 08:56 AM
will make that adjustment in terms of looking to feed folks more and move the basketball rather than look to score first in the playoffs as I'm certain Brunson will get doubled just like Randle did when the Knicks played Atlanta two seasons ago.

Just like the regular season, Randle's three point shot is going to be pivotal for him if/when he returns as I still see him struggling with double teams in the mid-range and paint area. Him missing time with the ankle injury is going to hurt his timing with his shot I fear. Hopefully others on the team will pick up his slack on the offensive end.
2785910, Randle to be reevaluated in 2 weeks.
Posted by Cenario, Thu Mar-30-23 04:01 PM
2786432, Up is down and down is up: Thibs is resting a star player
Posted by Numba_33, Wed Apr-05-23 11:37 AM

Jalen Brunson (right hand maintenance) is out tonight at Indiana.
2788355, Never in my wildest dreams
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Apr-27-23 08:11 AM
did I think this could possibly turn into a Knicks post-season post, but so it shall be.

Before I get into the upcoming Heat series, however this post-season turns out, I am so completely and blissfully happy to see RJ Barrett finally start to turn the corner on his offensive attacks. It looks as if he is finally starting to feel confident and comfortable attacking downhill and either looking to score or even better, make the correct passes to open teammates. I am finally starting to have some degree of optimism in Barrett's future.

Now onto the Heat series; as disappointing as it was to see the Bucks not extend their series with the Heat to gave Randle and Grimes more rest for their respective injuries, the Knicks have to deal with the cards they are dealt with. While everyone is going to focus on the Butler matchup, I think the two keys for the series will be how be what Bam does against the Knicks front court and how well the Knicks defend three pointers. In terms of three pointers, I'm going to assume Spoelstra is going to want Butler to break down the Knicks wing defenders to draw double teams to get open three pointers, along with Butler trying to draw fouls as that was his bread and butter in the regular season in terms of scoring. I'm also going to assume Spoelstra is going to get Bam to attack Mitchell Robinson from the wing or high post to test his lateral movement defensively and more importantly, get him the hell away from the paint to limit his rebounding domination that occurred in the Cavs series. Those are going to be two aspects of the Heat attack I will focus on. I'm going to assume Butler will go nuclear and I'll be perfectly fine with that as long as no one else on the Heat scores with ease, regularity, and more importantly doesn't get the Knicks in foul trouble.

Should be great basketball regardless. Can't wait to see how this series will add to the Heat/Knicks rivalry.
2788362, should be hugely entertaining, violent, and high-level
Posted by Tiger Woods, Thu Apr-27-23 09:44 AM
the Garden is going to be rabid for Jimmy , and he's going to eat it up too
2788363, Congrats ya'll. Jimmy is a beast but mil had miami on the ropes back to
Posted by Cenario, Thu Apr-27-23 09:44 AM
back games and couldn't close it. And ya'll get four games at the garden? City gonna be rocking
2788618, Round 2 - THIBS
Posted by Castro, Sat Apr-29-23 04:37 PM
I felt realistically we could win the first round but I didn't think anything else was probable because Milwaukee was a problem for us. I felt like they would be standing in our way...and this was in my head prior to when we found out our seeding. And here we are with a different conundrum - Prime SPO.

This series is a referendum on Thibs and whether he can function at this level of the game...we know he can coach with or outcoach Doc somedays and Mazulla most days, but Spo is an apex coach - he has rings and he has hit the right buttons in the past couple of weeks to set his team on fire. We are clearly the more talented team, but the things that the Heat can do well could end our season sooner than we'd like (although at this point, it has been an amazing run).

So, will Thibs sub when he needs to? Is he willing to give minutes to some of the guys buried on the bench (D-Rose, Fournier, Deuce) if the rotation is not yielding results? Will he extend the minutes of Obi, I-Hart, Grimes or IQ when they are hot??? Will he keep a guy in for defense even if he is not scoring? Spo is going to test Thibs ability to put his ego away and ignore his tendency to hold onto his cards when the game is getting away from him. If Thibs can pass this test, there is no reason why the Knicks can't march into the Finals.
2789423, Update - Spo is kicking THIBS in the nuts. Repeatedly.
Posted by Castro, Sun May-07-23 12:25 AM
All Thibs has to do is put Hart back on the bench. IQ is injured so the rotation has to change anyway. Fournier and D-Rose and Deuce are waiting to play. You have nothing to lose (except your job)....so stop worrying about your comb over and stop watching ROCKY 2 and saying you are watching "FILM"...and look at which lineups did the best when we beat Miami during the season. I am pretty sure its the lineup you are NOT using right now. LOL.

SPO has only had to go in his bag twice to outwit Thibs. First trick is that wall around Brunson in the lane...the second is the early fouls on Mitch and Jules to mitigate Bully Ball. We won game 2 because well shit, after Jimmy Butler is out, you are basically playing against Bam and two spot starters and everyone else is second or third unit guys.

We can still win this series. Thibs has to show some emotional maturity we have not seen before and put his pride down and let Johnny Bryant design the next game plan.
2789827, Spolestra is playing chess, while Thibs is playing Uno.
Posted by Numba_33, Tue May-09-23 10:15 AM
The constant overall committal to double teaming to wing players getting penetration leading to open three pointers has been killing the Knicks. That and not being able to handle pick and role switching properly at the top of the wing.

As much as it pains me since this is Miami and all, but I have to tip my cap to Spolestra to manage to churn the Heat offense the way he has, especially since Herro has been out.

The fact both Brunson and Randle are poor wing defenders in terms of defending players looking to penetrate should be factored as well since that isn't Thibs' fault at all.
2790861, POST MORT....
Posted by Castro, Mon May-15-23 10:06 PM
We reached our absolute ceiling with Thibs...I thought there was possibility for more based on the baby steps Thibs took in making adjustments to his rigid program, but we saw the bald truth - when facing a coach who makes adjustments in game, with both personnel and strategy, Thibs cannot keep up.

That being said, we are in a great position. Our core is young, our bench is a mix of young and old, and we have draft picks and decent salaries that we can trade or remain competitive by growing the team together.

The verdict for me remains the same. Thibs' time is up. Honestly, he overachieved this year pushing past a moment in December where I thought he was done, and we had a great run into the playoffs.

From a managerial standpoint, it would be irresponsible to keep him as coach because of what his coaching style does to players careers. The cautionary tale in regards to this sat at the end of our bench most of the season. Would like to see us add another Big and a Wing and add a coach with a modern offense and approach to dealing with our roster.
This could include promoting Johnnie Bryant and Dice Yoshimoto to coach and assistant coach, it could be Monty Williams coming back to NY, it could mean Mark Jackson coming home. But that for me is the first logical step towards building for a deeper run next season.
2790905, As exposed as he was in the Miami series
Posted by Numba_33, Tue May-16-23 12:02 PM
and painfully so as it was annoying seeing the Knicks over-react by using double teams to leave Miami open for three pointers, there's only two ways for Thibs to get the axe; Brunson will for some reason become a diva and demand Thibs' head or the Knicks will fall flat on their face the start of next season and Leon Rose will eject Thibs from the Garden as a scapegoat.

One thing I'm slightly curious about is if Randle does in fact get traded, I'd love to see what wrinkles Johnnie Bryant will add to the Knicks offense. I read that he was the reason Randle started launching more three pointers in the regular season, which really opened up his half court offense.

Next season will be a time of cautious optimism for me; a large part of that will depend on what the Knicks do this off-season to improve the roster of course. One thing for certain is that I'm going to watch RJ Barrett like a hawk to see if the post-season improvements will continue in the regular season. That's assuming of course the Knicks don't trade him this off-season; time will tell.
2790943, Some more wood for your Fire Thibs fireplace
Posted by Numba_33, Tue May-16-23 02:11 PM
link: https://www.amny.com/news/should-the-knicks-move-on-from-tom-thibodeau/


Should the Knicks move on from Tom Thibodeau?

By Eric Samulski
Posted on May 16, 2023

The Knicks are coming off their best season since 2012 and their second-best season since the turn of the century, so it feels like an odd time to question whether or not they should fire their coach, but if this team wants to take the next step towards being a championship contender, it might be the right call.

Tom Thibodeau won the Coach of the Year in 2021 for taking the Knicks to the postseason and has done a solid job of elevating some of the team’s younger talent; however, he has also shown rigidity in his strategies, failed to commit to evolutions, buried players like Obi Toppin, and was thoroughly outcoached by Erik Spoelstra in the playoffs.

With the Suns, Bucks, and 76ers already firing their coaches due to an inability to get them to the NBA Finals, it might be time for the Knicks to start thinking along the same lines.

For all of his strengths, the criticisms of Thibodeau are clear.

He has a reputation for being great for getting a bad team to be good but not having the chops to take a good team and make them a champion. After he took Chicago and Minnesota to the playoffs multiple times, he was fired from both jobs when he was unable to take the next step.

Part of that could be that his teams have all played a similar style of basketball that is not necessarily conducive to making deep playoff runs in the modern NBA.

Thibodeau’s teams play slow and don’t shoot particularly well, but they rebound the ball near the top of the league and rank in the top third of the league’s net ratings. They also run offenses that rely far too much on ISO-sets and have little to no ball movement on many possessions.

The Knicks had the 3rd-most isolation possessions of any team in the NBA and ranked 1st in the rate of field goals that were unassisted They finished 28th in assists per game and were 26th in points that came off of screen assists, as the team used the pick-and-roll far less, and less successfully, than most teams in the NBA.

While he was lauded for making a shift to his rotation that helped to turn the Knicks season around, Thibodeau also struggles to make adjustments without weeks of build-up forcing his hand. He never went small against the Heat despite Mitchell Robinson having a rough series and continued to use lineups that featured both RJ Barrett and Josh Hart on the wing, which limited the Knicks’ shooting and made it easier for the Heat to clog the pain and stop Jalen Brunson’s penetration.

Tom Thibodeau of the Knicks
New York Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau reacts in the first half of an NBA basketball game against the Los Angeles Clippers, Saturday, Feb. 4, 2023, at Madison Square Garden in New York. (AP Photo/Mary Altaffer)
What’s more, while Thibodeau has built a reputation as a defensive-minded coach, the results were simply not there for the Knicks this year.

Thibodeau claims that he uses his own metrics and stats to evaluate his defense, but his strategy is not conducive to the modern NBA. The Knicks would aggressively help off of shooters to fill the lane and take away penetration. That caused them to have to rotate to close out to the shooters, which led to a scrambling chaos of Knicks players flying out at the nearest shooter to prevent three-point shots.

Many teams used this chaos against the Knicks during the season, and Miami exposed it again during the playoffs, using ball movement and pump fakes to get Knicks defenders flying past them and hoist up open looks from three.

Opponents attempted 36.5 threes per game against the Knicks, which was the 5th-most in the NBA, and made 13 threes per game against New York, which was the 4th-most in the NBA. The Knicks also allowed the 7th-most catch-and-shoot threes and the 6th most open threes, meaning with no defender within four to six feet, both of which showcase just how often teams had open looks against this defense.

Additionally, the Knicks were not overly impactful off the ball either, ranking 22nd in deflections, which means they don’t get in the passing lanes, and finishing 29th in steals per game with just 6.2.

At the end of the day, even after making some adjustments during the season, the postseason showed that Thibodeau’s philosophy, player usage, and rigid substitution patterns are unlikely to change when push comes to shove.

That’s a problem considering Thibodeau was voted by NBA players as the coach they’d least like to play for, according to an anonymous survey conducted by The Athletic.

The two criticisms the players levied against Thibodeau are ones we’ve heard frequently.

“He plays his guys 44 minutes (a game) all year,” explained one player. “It’s a grind.”

Another player mentioned how hard it is for Thibodeau to change his mind about a player.

“I’ve heard from guys like if he likes you — if you’re his guy — he’ll treat you great. He’ll play you a lot, talk to you, so you’ll f— with him in that sense. But if you’re on the outside, it’s like you’re not getting back in.”

That was no more evident this season than with the usage of Obi Toppin, who stepped up in a starting role when Julius Randle went down and turned himself into a more reliable shooter to help the team but was still never able to earn more than his limited minutes off of the bench.

The Knicks are inching closer to being a true title contender, but there will be difficult decisions to make in order to take those final steps. One of them might just be finding a new person to steer the ship.

**end of swipe**

For anyone reading this, can anyone copy and paste that Athletic article referenced in that story? It appears to be a pretty damning on indictment on Thibs. I wonder how many star players feel that way around the league.
2790994, He took us further than I expected
Posted by Castro, Tue May-16-23 07:39 PM
Now is a good time to move on...he will look good and he can help another squad, and we will be able to build on what he did without him ruining Brunson like he did D Rose.
2791111, I know you're referring to the heavy minutes usage
Posted by Numba_33, Wed May-17-23 08:59 AM
>without him ruining Brunson like he did D Rose.

which is something to be concerned with for sure, and as I type this, I'm realizing this might be too much to ask of Thibs, but I'm hoping the coaching staff will look to make Brunson more of a distributor than a scoring threat. Given how Brunson plays by going to the hole with his hesitation moves and the lack of spacing due to the lack of three point threats, I fear he's going to be constantly banged up during the course of the 82 game regular season, which will naturally make things harder for him come playoff time.

Hopefully Johnnie Bryant realizes this as well and is game planning for this as I type out this response; similar to how he made Randle chuck up more three pointers this regular season to open up his game in the half-court.
2791214, RE: I know you're referring to the heavy minutes usage
Posted by Castro, Wed May-17-23 08:27 PM
I am complete agreement. I would rather see 18 and 8 from him than 27 and 5. If we have an actual offense to run, I envision Grimes getting more looks, Randle being able to get the ball on the move and score, and less ISO. Also, I would like to see Mitch or iHart or Jericho have something they can do in the paint besides crash the boards and set picks.

I would be perfectly happy with Johnnie or Monty taking over. Don't want Nurse or Budenholzer or any more Thibs. Don't want Doc, don't want any other retreads. I want to keep Randle. I want Rose to go somewhere he can play regularly (Fournier too). Onward and upward.
2790919, Randle is not that guy.
Posted by Cenario, Tue May-16-23 12:55 PM
As bad as he was this postseason (maybe it was the ankle), he was even worse that 1st playoff year with the knicks. He's not a consistently good offensive player when teams can scheme for him for 7 games. He's not a smart player either and a poor defender.

I can see him being the 3rd wheel on a contender if he gave more attention to defense. but clearly Brunson is the guy to build around, and the knicks should jump at any opportunity to bring back a near all star caliber player for Ju.

Fans stomping his poster or stephen a being stephen a is a bit much tho
2791620, The ankle was part of the problem.
Posted by Castro, Sat May-20-23 10:26 AM
Its clear someone other than Thibs manages and helps him with his 'mentals' as he would put it. And in the midst of playoff basketball, you gotta be on the same page, and because Thibs is so laissez faire with Jules, there ain't ever going to be any correction when Jules mentally goes off the rails and starts making bad decisions or his effort wanes.

And when that happens again and again, if the Knicks put Randle on the market, we will never get a fair trade for him.

Yet the flipside is I don't think Randle will ever be in a better situation to succeed, and the fact that he is an A-list Tweener is a boon for us...there really isn't anyone like him...and I think with a better coach, and at age 28, he can actually improve. The skills are there...but fine tuning his role and placing it in an offense that is more dynamic will unlock his final form, so to speak. And that cannot happen with a coach whose playoff record matches George Karl's.
2792891, I hate to sound like a....no I don't. Thibs played Jules injured.
Posted by Castro, Sat Jun-03-23 03:58 PM
40 minutes a game.

please get him the fuck out of NY. WWW you're my only hope.