I love what Ohtani is doing and I know he is a unicorn that we haven't seen since Babe Ruth but he needs to put up MVP or Cy Young numbers to win the MVP award. As a hitter he only was leading in HRs. As a pitcher he leads in nothing. Let's be honest on any other staff than the Angels he would be a 2-3-4 pitcher on a staff. His WHIP has him tied with 3 others at 19th. What he is doing is amazing but for him to have the MVP on lock he needs to be more of an elite hitter or pitcher. He isn't. He is as good as Stroman who isn't an ace either.

Vladdy is hands down the best hitter in the entire league this year and only 22years old. He's right there for the Triple Crown and leads in many other categories.

Avg .318 (1st)
Runs 116 (1st)
Hits 173 (1st)
HR 46 (1st)
RBI 104 (t-4th)
OBP .409 (1st)
SLG .615 (1st)
OPS 1.024 (1st)
Total Bases 333 (1st)

Sorry not even being bias, I would probably be more bias for Ohtani because he's asian and would be the first Asian MVP but he just doesn't deserve it over Vladdy.Story wise sure, stat wise it's not even close.

Ohtani not only has the hitting numbers, but the pitching numbers as well.
He is doing something we haven’t seen since Babe Ruth.

He is MVP for his team in the batter’s box and on the mound.

Vlad is more like the best offensive player in the league.

There is a difference.

He has far less innings pitched hes not even in the running for Cy Young. Talk facts not feelings or eye tests. Vladdy is prob going to win or being a finalist for gold glove at 1B this year too.

Does google not work in your home?

Batting

Hr: 44
RBI: 94
Ops: .954
Hits: 128
SB: 23
Doubles:25
Slg, .594

Pitching:

9-2
ERA: 3.38

Are you kidding me?

He is going to have 10 wins, possibly 50 hrs, 3.38 era, 100 RBIs.

Babe Ruth shit.

You brought up stats he doesnt lead in and backed it up with “probably’s” . 10 wins is Cy Young worthy to you? His WHIP is ranked 19th Hahahahaa

Casual fan ass response. Foh.

.

Think about it.

Ohtani is second behind VLAD in OPS, with a winning record as pitcher.

It’s no hate on VLAD at all. He is a hell of a player.

But MVP to me means doing it at all aspects the game....and Ohtani’s
9-2 record, 130 SOs, 3.38 era, and at the same time being one of the best power hitters in the game?

Can pitch a 90 mph fastball and hit a 90 mph fastball....

You can’t be.

He is a player who is close to 50 Hrs with a 3.38 era and a winning pitching record,
and would have more wins if he had the run support. Again he is 9-2. And he
is the first all star to be selected for both hitting and pitching.

Also, closing in on double digit wins of any kind in this day and age is no small feat,
considering the use of middle relievers and closers.

And you call me a casual fan, and you have no idea what you are statistically
witnessing.

Only Babe Ruth has done what he is doing. Babe Ruth. We are talking
1920s

If you want to have a serious conversation, then let’s have it.

If not keep moving, because you are proving to not understand baseball.

Ohtani is doing it on the mound and in the batter’s box....and, oh, yeah,
he has 136 SOs and is 5th in stolen bases....

Vlad going for triple crown is good stuff. Miggy also did it in this era...

OHtani is in another universe and is hands down the MVP.

Ohtani’s UNIVERSAL stat line blows everyone out of the water

He doesn’t have to be Cy Young worthy. Just the fact that he is a good pitcher in addition to being a monster at the plate is crazy. Hard to contribute more to your team than he has.

Can’t be mad at Vlad winning either - best overall hitter in the game.

He’s really fucking good but if you call 177 strikeouts second to Gallo as a monster or mvp, then Gallo should get votes for the amount of HRs he hits? People need to sit down and either talk numbers or don’t and if he is not leading in more categories than Vlad then what are we even doing here?

MVP voting should go

Vlad
Ohtani
Semien

Cy Young is between Ray and Cole, depends on how they finish and who makes the playoffs. Ray is looking a lot better than Cole after todays game.

Ohtani is a member of the 40/20 club. A player with at least 40 homers, and
20 stolen bases. He is the first Angels player to do that, meaning that some shit
Mike Trout has never done.


Vlad has 4 stolen bases. FOUR


Ohtani: bWAR 7.9, Vlad Jr. 5.8
Ohtani: fWAR 7.1, Vlad Jr. 6.2

And tonight he pitched 8 innings, 2 run ERA, striking out 10. He didn’t
get the win tonight because of terrible run support.

He was just lucky they were solo bombs

Btw Ohtani’s WAR

As a hitter : 4.6
As a pitcher : 5.0

Put up MVP numbers please. Not just HRs. This is silly.

Kanye is not automatically better than Hov or even seriously mentioned as the GOAT just because he raps and produces LOL please stop.

>He was just lucky they were solo bombs
>
>Btw Ohtani’s WAR
>
>As a hitter : 4.6
>As a pitcher : 5.0
>
>Put up MVP numbers please. Not just HRs. This is silly.
>
>Kanye is not automatically better than Hov or even seriously
>mentioned as the GOAT just because he raps and produces LOL
>please stop.
>
>
Cmon.

Funny how you disregarded that 40/20 stat which is the hallmark of
5 tool baseball player

Bonds
Griffey
Arod

They are all in that club

And he is only the third player to do it before the month of September.

Pitching ( throwing/fielding) - check
Running- check
Hitting- check

Why are you so aggressive with this as if OHtani isn’t worthy?

Vlad is a beast, but OHtani is on some god shit right now.

You’re comparing OHtani to Kanye?

Homers (which he doesnt lead in) and stolen bases (also doesn’t lead in at 9th place) are not MVP stats.

You named players who had 40/20 years who didn’t strikeout more than they walked. By your logic if Gallo had 20 stolen bases he would be a MVP candidate. Please make some sense.

It’s simply a mark showing that he is doing much more than VLAD as
a baseball player.

A poster just posted an article showcasing that a player who accomplishes
the triple crowns doesn’t necessary mean that player is the MVP. It simply means
that player is a great hitter or great offensive player.

MVP in baseball is about a player being a supreme 5 tool player,
which is why a player like Bonds won it five times. He could hit,run
throw, and catch. He was me 40/40

VLAD is an outstanding offensive player, but OHtani is Mr. Everything.

Then Ohtani should win every year he both pitches and hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He is playing at an allStar level for both positions, because
he was selected as an all Star for both positions. He is doing
something that has never been done before since Ruth, and is
hands down carrying his team at both positions.

If OHtani wasn’t Asian, would we even be having this discussion?

This guy is having a season that we possibly will never see again in our
lifetime.

Kinda hard to contribute more to your team than the guy who is his team’s best hitter and best pitcher.

This whole he is the Angels best hitter argument doesnt even happen because statistically he would be competing with Vlad in all the same categories in my original post just like he does every single year of his career. Being the best pitcher on the Angels isnt an accomplishment. He would be a 3 or 4 on the Mets pitching staff and most big market pitching staffs. Stroman would be the best pitcher if he was on the Angels staff.

He does do both hitting and pitting well. Just not at an MVP level. Based on his stats he is not an elite hitter or pitcher. He could be one day, but put up the numbers to prove it, and put up better numbers than the ones I posted for Vlad. You can’t because he only competes in 2 categories (HRs and OPS) on the offensive side. This is why i say this is all based on feelings and the eye test. It’s an amazing story, but it’s hyperbolic and not based on actual facts/stats.

10-2, 3.38 era, 100mph fastball, and pitches an un-hittable splitter?

And his team lost him about 5-6 victories due to low run support. His record
should actually be around 16-2.

That’s an ace pitcher, and he would be the number 1 starter on the majority
of the teams in MLB.

I’m not understanding your take. You’re calling what Ohtani is doing hype?

We just agree to disagree.

...yet. He has the potential as he was always scouted as being a better pitcher than a hitter. IS HE NOW? No, and you must not know baseball if you think those numbers are ACE numbers SMH. The only reason he started the All Star game was because Cole dropped out.

He is not consistent with his control and has to throw more innings to start proving that which is why he qualify for the Cy Young. He may have one or the best splitters in the game but he doesn't have the consistency with control for his pitches like he did in Japan. An ERA of 3.38 is NOT an ace.

Alcantara in Miami is doing better than Ohtani on the mound and wouldn't be an ace on other teams. Alcantara has just under 200 innings at 194, 189 strikeouts and a WHIP of 1.058, ALL better than Ohtani. Ohtani and Alcantara's ERA"s are not even in the top 10. 17th is not ELITE in any sport. This is a dumb argument that you have yet to back up with actual numbers LOL

“In baseball, an ace is the best starting pitcher on a team and nearly always the first pitcher in the team's starting rotation. Barring injury or exceptional circumstances, an ace typically starts on Opening Day. In addition, aces are usually preferred to start crucial playoff games, sometimes on three days' rest.”

You don’t even know what an ace is.

Alcantara is the the ace of his team. He is the number 1 starter, which is
what ace means.

And the fact that you think 3.38 isn’t a very good era is bonkers. Excellent is
a 2 point era. Average ERA in MLB is 4.44!

This conversation is officially over. You proved that you don’t know
anything about pitching.

do you not understand their pitching staffs suck? LOL They are the ace of team by default not by domination. WTF are you even talking about. YOU said they would be aces on most teams and that is the farthest from the truth.

Cubs- Hendricks - 4.xx era
Atl-Morton/Fried - 3.xx
Cincy- Miley/Mahle - 3.xx
Oak- Bassit/ Montas -3.xx
Mil-Suter - 3.xx


Even Cole’s era is 3.xx
And Urias is 2.99!

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/player/_/view/pitching/table/pitching/sort/wins/dir/desc

I can go on and on...Ohtani would be the ace for the majority of teams in
MLB. Let me know if you need more examples

You said 3.xx doesn’t equal a pitcher being an ace. The avg Era for all aces
is 3.xx

Lol

Otani's a unicorn.

But someone winning the Triple Crown is really rare and he's doing it for a team with a much higher likelihood to make the playoffs.

I say if the Blue Jays make the Wild Card and Vlad Jr. wins the Triple Crown he should win.

Dude has hit 40 plus hrs and pitched great. Babe Ruth never even did it for more than a month at a time. This is some Negro League legendary type shit.

Vlad has 5 other players on his team that have 19 or more home runs, and five every day players batting .270 or better....so he is the big cog in a dominant offensive machine.

Angels have Ohtani, who basically has no protection in the batting order. No one on the Angels is hitting above .272. Of the regular players, Ohtani has the third best average on the team.... .257

So for him to do what he is doing in that lineup as a hitter is amazing, but then he goes out and is an all star pitcher who would definitely have 13-14 wins if he was getting any run support. He struck out 10 today and lost 3-2.

The New York Times of all places laid out the most cogent argument for why Vlad shouldn't get the MVP even if he comfortably claims the Triple Crown, and they didn't even have to go full sabremetrics and point to Miguel Cabrera winning over Mike Trout when he got the Triple Crown to make their case. They just pointed to the several other times its happened.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/sports/baseball/vladimir-guerrero-triple-crown.html


"Despite the notion in 2012 that a triple crown could not be ignored in the M.V.P. voting, the historical precedent says the opposite.

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In 1942, Williams led the A.L. with a .356 average, 36 home runs and 137 R.B.I. He scored 141 runs and had a 1.147 on-base plus slugging percentage. In more modern terms, he had a major league-leading 10.5 WAR. Yet for the voters that year, second baseman Joe Gordon’s solid run for the first-place Yankees — though he trailed Williams in nearly every offensive category — was more important, and Gordon won the M.V.P. fairly easily.

In 1947, lightning struck twice. Williams led the A.L. with a .343 average, 32 homers and 114 R.B.I. He scored 125 runs, had an O.P.S. of 1.133 and produced 9.6 WAR. That time it was Joe DiMaggio of the, you guessed it, first-place Yankees, who beat out Williams despite trailing him in everything.

The M.V.P.-less fate that befell Williams twice, and could happen for Guerrero this year, has other precedent as well. Lou Gehrig won the A.L. triple crown in 1934 and finished fifth in M.V.P. voting — he didn’t even place first among his teammates. In 1933, Chuck Klein of the Philadelphia Phillies won the N.L. triple crown but lost the M.V.P. to Carl Hubbell of the Giants. In 1912, Heinie Zimmerman of the Chicago Cubs captured the N.L. triple crown and finished tied for sixth in the M.V.P. voting, well behind the winner, Larry Doyle of the Giants.

In some of the other triple crown years, no M.V.P. was awarded. And in the case of the 10 triple crowns that Baseball Reference has recognized from the Negro leagues, no M.V.P. information is given."



--------

And all that aside, all you have to do is look at all Ohtani's accomplished and recognize even he might not do this again. Until this recent slump at the plate he had the coolest swing at the plate and then he'd turn right back around and throw one of the coolest pitches I've ever seen in my life back at it - that splitter is totally mind-blowing, and it's wild that it's coming out of the hand of a dude who will also hit 1-4 for power and led the league in homers for most of the year. He had people who think baseball is a joke sport in modern times tuning in to baseball games. He's more than the most valuable Angels player (which, if you want to go that route, at various times you could've argued Robbie Ray or Bo Bichette were more valuable to the Jays) while the Angels have been crossing their fingers that Jared Walsh might become a star.

Unless Ohtani hits .100 for the rest of the month and drops a third hellacious stinker on the mound, the entire conversation just feels academic at best.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

But a starting pitcher who is hitting damn near 50 HRs, with a strong W-L record and solid ERA is some video game shit. THE END.

Like a football player leading the league in rushing and being a pro bowl Linebacker. You don’t do BOTH.

fuck me

He has to at least put up MVP numbers as a pitcher or hitter he can't compete in 2 categories as a hitter and not even be able to qualify for a cy young and have an ERA placed at 17th to get an MVP award. This is ridiculous thinking.

Yes, we all believe this. Ohtani is far and away the MVP. It isn't even questionable.

As everyone else already stated what Ohtani is doing is historical. While Vlad is an ELITE hitter, he has 3 other guys on his team that are having great years - Semien (3rd in fWAR), Bichette and Teoscar and whenever he is healthy Springer is elite. I point this out only bc it helps his counting stats like Runs + RBIs.

If you swapped Ohtani for Vlad, the Blue Jays would be a better team bc a) he's much faster and b) could pitch at an elite level.

If the playoff started he would be Toronto's 3/4 hitter and the #2 starter behind Robbie Ray (he's having an absurd season).

I think people are nervous that Ohtani will win by default every year from here on out, but I highly doubt that’s the case. For one thing, there’s so many variables, including his health, that this could easily be his last real chance at an MVP and we just don’t know it yet. Vlad is young as hell and I’m not really worried about his health. He’ll have plenty more chances.

I kinda get the argument that the Jays are in playoff contention, but I don’t really view baseball’s MVP the same as football or basketball’s. You truly have to be on a good team to justify it in those sports, but in baseball you can be the absolute best player on the planet and still be stuck on a shitty team. It happens. Trout has only been to the playoffs once and he has 3 MVPs. You can’t argue he doesn’t deserve those (probably deserves more!). Either way, as it stands, Ohtani is a very good pitcher and a great hitter. It can’t be overstated that we’ve never seen this in our lifetimes. Give him the award.

You can be the greatest baseball player of all time in a given season, and it doesn’t matter if your team is trash.

That’s more reason to vote for the best power hitter in the game that is also his team’s best pitcher! The hell else can one man do in this sport?

He’s still the MVP though.

MF OHTANI

All Caps when you spell the man’s name.

Story is great. I love it too. I have Ohtani merch. He's still not someone who I think deserves MVP. Put up MVP number as either a hitter or pitcher. PERIOD.

MVP has always been about numbers amongst each league. Influence on their team was never the reason why a player was named MVP, that agenda shit only started when journalists who vote and fans wanted to give reasons to who they thought should be MVP. Their value to that team whether they make the playoffs or not don't go hand in hand with their individual numbers, a great example is Trout. No one player can make you go to the playoffs no matter what numbers they put up, which is why I never cared if the Blue Jays made the playoffs for this argument. The Triple Crown for sure because that involves individual numbers. I still think he deserves it over Ohtani based on his numbers. Ohtani doesn't compete with any of the offensive categories other than 2 of them and he doesn't quality for any Cy Young because of lack of innings. Still an amazing season. NOT an MVP one.

does he not have a WAR that blows away the player in 2nd place?

No one has ever had a season like this, not even Babe Ruth.

if each of them puts up the same numbers next year, Vladdy wins it. But MLB has to recognize AT LEAST ONCE what Ohtani has done this year. It's revolutionary. Vlad is getting robbed, sure, but come on. Ohtani deserves it one time. Vlad is 22. He does anything close to this again next year and it's his.

Really i'd love CO-MVP for the two of them and CY for Ray, but it's not gonna happen its not gonna be close. Now, had the Jays made the playoffs and had vlad hit 50, it ~might~ be close, but I still dont think it wouldve mattered. Short of Ohatani getting injured mid season, its been his locked up since late-May

I would've been shocked if he wasn't unanimous, forget just being the winner


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz