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Forum nameOkay Sports
Topic subjectNFL question Who is/was the defensive equivalent of Brady, Montana, Manning, etc.
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2739650
2739650, NFL question Who is/was the defensive equivalent of Brady, Montana, Manning, etc.
Posted by normal35762, Wed Jun-09-21 01:34 AM
Who you got?
2739655, Ray Lewis, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Deion Sanders
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 07:45 AM
2739745, Id maybe add Ed Reed but this is a good list.
Posted by Sofian_Hadi, Wed Jun-09-21 06:04 PM
2739659, LT is the GOAT...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Wed Jun-09-21 07:55 AM
..and its not even close.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739668, RE: LT is the GOAT...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Wed Jun-09-21 08:50 AM
>..and its not even close.
>
>

Please explain what makes Lawrence Taylor FAR SUPERIOR to…let's say Reggie White?


2739719, *1 of only 2 defensive players in NFL history to win MVP...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Wed Jun-09-21 02:45 PM
*Edit: Almost forgot Alan Page

..that alone should give you an indication of the magnitude of his legacy. That's beyond legendary status.

While I could list his accomplishments/stats, that really wouldn't do justice to the overall impact of Lawrence Taylor.

He revolutionized not only the position(s) he played, but entire offensive/defensive schemes were designed to slow/stop him. They all failed.

He's your favorite player's favorite player.

No one wanted to face LT.



*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739747, RE: *The only defensive player in NFL history to win MVP...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Wed Jun-09-21 06:09 PM
>..*that alone should give you an indication of the magnitude
>of his legacy.

No, it doesn't

He was the best player on the leagues best team that won a Super Bowl and had no skill position superstars.

That's like saying that Ray Lewis is the better than Reggie White because he won a Super Bowl MVP

>
>While I could list his accomplishments/stats, that really
>wouldn't do justice to the overall impact of Lawrence Taylor.

Well, Reggie's stats are better so yeah, makes sense you wouldn't

>
>
>He revolutionized not only the position(s) he played,

Hyperbole


but
>entire offensive/defensive schemes were designed to slow/stop
>him. They all failed.

Reggie was dominant for longer than LT so I don't see this being any different for Reggie

>
>He's your favorite player's favorite player.
>

WELL HOW ABOUT WE SEE WHAT LAWRENCE TAYLOR THINKS

https://fastphillysports.com/eagles-reggie-white-best-defensive-player-ever-lt-says/


It's absolutely ridiculous to say Reggie WAS NOT EVEN CLOSE to LT as a player. They were either equal but different, OR Reggie is better. There is literally zero argument for what you are saying and L.T. himself would tell you to stop it. It's insulting to anyone who actually watched both of those incredible players play and has eyes in their head.

2739760, single-most disruptive player on any defense in NFL history...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Wed Jun-09-21 07:09 PM
..and like a true legend, he named his contemporary.

Respect to Reggie White, but this really isn't a comparison. I'm not even a Taylor stan (Derrick Brooks is my favorite LB), but I recognize his greatness in the hierarchy that is professional football.

Lawrence Taylor reinvented how football was played and revolutionized the game.

He's not just the GOAT defender, but he's in the convo for GOAT overall.

*Here's a pretty comprehensive list:

https://clutchpoints.com/updating-and-ranking-the-50-greatest-nfl-players-of-all-time/



*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739762, RE: single-most disruptive player on any defense in NFL history...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Wed Jun-09-21 07:43 PM
You have not given a single persuasive argument.

And LT doesn't agree with you.

And LT could have put Deacon Jones first (he put Deacon second, himself third) rather than naming Reggie as #1, if he was just trying to be deferential.


I.E. if Shaq says the GOAT was Kareem, he risks nothing as they were not contemporaries but is still being deferential to a a legendary player who deserves it. If he says it's Tim Duncan, you can be more confident that it's a real opinion.



Your argument is not borne out by stats, eye test, conventional wisdom or the words of the man you are arguing on behalf of. You are refusing to engage on any measurable metric because the is NO metric that would place LT in some other stratosphere from Reggie White.

2739822, Okay, player... LOL
Posted by CyrenYoung, Thu Jun-10-21 01:06 PM
..You made the mistake of assuming that I would engage you in an argument/debate.

This isn't that.




*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739840, RE: Okay, player... LOL
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Thu Jun-10-21 06:41 PM
You already did, and upon realizing there is zero validity to your position, you are wisely demurring.

Better late than never
2739890, No, fool...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Fri Jun-11-21 11:00 AM
..You asked a question and I answered it. That wasn't an invitation or acceptance to a debate.

Its cool that you have an opinion, but nothing you said will change the fact that Lawrence Taylor is the GOAT NFL defender.

Cry about it.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739896, RE: No, fool...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Fri Jun-11-21 11:20 AM
That just is not what happened.

Anyone can look above and see you debating me.

I asked a question. You answered. I contested your assertions. You replied specifically countering my assertions. And so on.

That's a debate.


I don't expect you to cry but it would be nice if you didn't act like a child.
2739979, You're a fucking idiot lol...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Sat Jun-12-21 12:08 PM
..The OP asked my opinion.

I gave my opinion. You requested an explanation, I said I could but that route wouldn't merit much. I didn't counter anything you stated. As a matter of fact, I did the exact opposite and gave respect to Reggie White. When you mentioned LT's response to the same question, I gave my opinion of his statement, not yours. I didn't engage your futile attempt to debate my opinion because your opinion doesn't matter to me.

There are plenty of other people here to play with. Move on, child.





*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739995, RE: You're a fucking idiot lol...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Sat Jun-12-21 01:36 PM
your opinion doesn't matter to me.
>

If this were true you would have stopped responding long ago
2740030, FOH, dude.
Posted by CyrenYoung, Sun Jun-13-21 09:26 AM

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2739665, in terms of what? "conducting the orchestra?"
Posted by cgonz00cc, Wed Jun-09-21 08:41 AM
if so i say Ray Lewis, and I would submit for consideration late career Charles Woodson once he moved to box safety
2739666, you mean prolific careers + titles?
Posted by will_5198, Wed Jun-09-21 08:43 AM
2739680, Troy Polamalu
Posted by legsdiamond, Wed Jun-09-21 10:36 AM
Rod Woodsen

but real talk.. check the stats of London Fletcher vs Ray Lewis.

not sure how accurate the stats are in this image but if its true..

https://i1.wp.com/thebuffalofanatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Fletcher-Lewis_Meme-edited.jpg?resize=356%2C472&ssl=1
2739687, London Fletcher is underappreciated but to try to put him on the level...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 10:54 AM
with Ray Lewis is silly. As far as I know London Fletcher was never a Super Bowl MVP and the teams and defenses he was on were nowhere near as good as Baltimore's. If that defense doesn't get off the field he's going to get more stats in some categories. I like London Fletcher but its not close.

Ray Lewis

2× Super Bowl champion (XXXV, XLVII)
Super Bowl MVP (XXXV)
2× NFL Defensive Player of the Year (2000, 2003)
7× First-team All-Pro (1999–2001, 2003, 2004, 2008, 2009)
3× Second-team All-Pro (1997, 1998, 2010)
13× Pro Bowl (1997–2001, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NFL tackles leader (1997, 1999, 2001)
NFL 2000s All-Decade Team
NFL 100th Anniversary All-Time Team

NFL records
Most career combined tackles: 2,059
Most career solo tackles: 1,568
Most solo tackles in a season: 156

London Fletcher

Super Bowl champion (XXXIV)
4× Pro Bowl (2009–2012)
2× Second-team All-Pro (2011, 2012)
2739696, meh on the probowls or all decades teams
Posted by legsdiamond, Wed Jun-09-21 12:04 PM
that all decades team is whatever.. just some made up shit.

but the pro bowls? man, Pouncey made the pro bowl last year for the Steelers and he sucked last year. Shit is a popularity contest and once you make it a few times you end up getting the benefit of the doubt regardless of the stats.

Not buying the bad team stat padding either. That’s bullshit. There would be tons of tackle leaders on bad teams if that was the case.

not even knocking Ray Lewis.. just thought the numbers were crazy close for both of their stats
2739703, Pro Bowls and All-Pro are 2 different things. Pro Bowl is more like...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 12:52 PM
All-Star popularity but All-Pro means you are hands down the best player at your position.

I see you didn't address the team success and Super Bowl MVP's. Ray Lewis led what was arguably one of the best defenses EVER. And I don't recall anybody fearing London Fletcher.
2739711, I know the difference between the 2.. its why I said Pro Bowl
Posted by legsdiamond, Wed Jun-09-21 01:48 PM
I know All-Pro is the real shit so I’m not questioning that one.

no one feared Ray Lewis. FOH. Dude was nice as hell but this idea that people were like “omg, its Ray Lewis” is laughable.

and no, I didn’t address his SB MVP award but in 2003 dude won with 5 tackles, 3 solo, 2 assisted and 4 pass defenses. I guess the PD’s are impressive but nah.. aint no fucking way anyone wins an MVP award with that stat line these days. That was a gift.

but sure, they had some good defenses..

2739716, RE: I know the difference between the 2.. its why I said Pro Bowl
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 02:39 PM
>I know All-Pro is the real shit so I’m not questioning that
>one.
>
>no one feared Ray Lewis. FOH. Dude was nice as hell but this
>idea that people were like “omg, its Ray Lewis” is
>laughable.

Ask Eddie George
>
>and no, I didn’t address his SB MVP award but in 2003 dude
>won with 5 tackles, 3 solo, 2 assisted and 4 pass defenses. I
>guess the PD’s are impressive but nah.. aint no fucking way
>anyone wins an MVP award with that stat line these days. That
>was a gift.
>
>but sure, they had some good defenses..

He was the best player on the best team. point blank period. He won SB MVP in 2000 and in 2003 he won his 2nd DPOY. London Fletcher is not in those conversations. People like Derrick Brooks and Brian Urlacher are.
2739911, lmao @ best player on the best team
Posted by legsdiamond, Fri Jun-11-21 12:50 PM
that happens every year.. doesnt mean shit.

Now, I’m not saying Ray wasn’t one of the best to ever do it, just saying the stats London put up are impressive af when put side by side with Ray Lewis.

I know SB victories hold weight but London’s stats are impressive.

Barry Sanders never won shit but stats don’t lie..
2740003, Dynamic Playmaker-ism! (c) celery77
Posted by 40thStreetBlack, Sat Jun-12-21 04:12 PM
>but real talk.. check the stats of London Fletcher vs Ray
>Lewis.
>
>not sure how accurate the stats are in this image but if its
>true..
>
>https://i1.wp.com/thebuffalofanatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Fletcher-Lewis_Meme-edited.jpg?resize=356%2C472&ssl=1


Fletcher was a terrific player and had a great career, but cmon.
2739705, Ray Lewis, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott and LT
Posted by bentagain, Wed Jun-09-21 12:59 PM
Ray Lewis was the first defensive player that was a must see for me
Like watching Barry or Bo run the ball
I tuned in to Ravens’ games just to watch him play

Reggie...was just unstoppable

Ronnie...crushing tackles

and LT has to be the most disruptive defensive player ever
...somebody up top aske why...
Outside LB was a role created to utilize his unique skill set
...wasn’t a thing before LT...changed the game.
2739708, Deion literally invented the idea of a "shutdown corner". The thought of...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 01:18 PM
a cornerback actually taking away an entire side of the field in the passing game was unheard of.
2739710, also a weapon whenever the ball was in his hands
Posted by will_5198, Wed Jun-09-21 01:45 PM
he scored career 19 touchdowns as a returner and on defense (plus 3 more as a receiver)

the only player in NFL history with more non-offensive touchdowns is Devin Hester

and yes, he invented a legendary position that probably will never be duplicated with modern passing rules

"I still remember Deion's first team meeting," says Clayton Holmes, the veteran cornerback. "We were so fundamental about film. The way we studied it was critical. Well, Deion comes in, puts his feet up on a table and doesn't even watch."

When Dave Campo, the Cowboys new defensive coordinator, asked the $35 million man to break down a play, Sanders let out a sly laugh. "Hey, Coach," he said, pointing toward the screen, "I got that dude right there. Wherever he goes I go. All that Cover Two stuff you're talking about -- y'all work that out."
2739714, RE: also a weapon whenever the ball was in his hands
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 02:32 PM
>
>"I still remember Deion's first team meeting," says Clayton
>Holmes, the veteran cornerback. "We were so fundamental about
>film. The way we studied it was critical. Well, Deion comes
>in, puts his feet up on a table and doesn't even watch."
>
>When Dave Campo, the Cowboys new defensive coordinator, asked
>the $35 million man to break down a play, Sanders let out a
>sly laugh. "Hey, Coach," he said, pointing toward the screen,
>"I got that dude right there. Wherever he goes I go. All that
>Cover Two stuff you're talking about -- y'all work that out."

I've heard that story told before but I think in some ways it discredits Deion, in addition to being a phenomenal athlete he was a HUGE student of the game. He studied WR's, offenses and offensive coaches so much he knew what they were going to do before they did. He didn't just take away one guy he took away an entire side of the field. Even when they tried to throw to a guy he wasn't covering Deion would come off his man and still make a play. There are some other guys that do that now but Prime was the first to do that.
2739750, RE: Deion literally invented the idea of a "shutdown corner". The thought of...
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Wed Jun-09-21 06:21 PM
Why do people say this when Darrell Green existed?


I guess the answer is marketing
2739846, Because people would throw towards Darrell Green...just not long
Posted by Castro, Thu Jun-10-21 07:15 PM
passes. But I feel that Mike Haynes of the Raiders was the first real shutdown corner...he was the reason Lester Hayes was getting all the picks, because they wouldn't throw towards Haynes.
2739862, RE: Because people would throw towards Darrell Green...just not long
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Thu Jun-10-21 10:01 PM
IF you say so, but you weren't going to be successful if throwing at Green was your gameplan. He was just as liable to score on defense as Primetime was, he was a smothering cover guy, physical tackler and blindingly fast.

4x All-Pro to Primetime's six

2 SB rings, 3 appearances, and he never had to title hunt.


he was every bit as good as Sanders

2739902, RE: Because people would throw towards Darrell Green...just not long
Posted by ThaTruth, Fri Jun-11-21 11:58 AM
>IF you say so, but you weren't going to be successful if
>throwing at Green was your gameplan. He was just as liable to
>score on defense as Primetime was, he was a smothering cover
>guy, physical tackler and blindingly fast.
>
>4x All-Pro to Primetime's six
>
>2 SB rings, 3 appearances, and he never had to title hunt.
>
>
>he was every bit as good as Sanders

no he wasn't lol
2739904, RE: Because people would throw towards Darrell Green...just not long
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Fri Jun-11-21 12:20 PM
>>IF you say so, but you weren't going to be successful if
>>throwing at Green was your gameplan. He was just as liable
>to
>>score on defense as Primetime was, he was a smothering cover
>>guy, physical tackler and blindingly fast.
>>
>>4x All-Pro to Primetime's six
>>
>>2 SB rings, 3 appearances, and he never had to title hunt.
>>
>>
>>he was every bit as good as Sanders
>
>no he wasn't lol
>

LOL yes he was?


Depending on what you wanted, you could pick either player.

Green was more consistent down-to-down cover guy, faster, far superior tackler, flawless technique in man or zone

Sanders gambled more, better hands, significantly taller (but NOT more physical), an expert at baiting QBs into making throws they shouldn't and making them pay. Both guys scored defensive touchdowns 8 for Green, 10 for Deion, but Deion really mastered the long interception return.


I think that is a pretty unbiased assessment of their skills.



2739906, okayplayer. n/m
Posted by ThaTruth, Fri Jun-11-21 12:26 PM
2739713, Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, JPP, Strahan
Posted by Cenario, Wed Jun-09-21 02:01 PM
2739725, LT, Reggie White, Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Ronnie Lott, Deion
Posted by Castro, Wed Jun-09-21 03:23 PM
2739731, I have a hard time finding any flaws w/this list
Posted by GOMEZ, Wed Jun-09-21 03:46 PM
Lott and Ed Reed feel the most QB equivalent to me, because of the way they saw and read the whole field, along w/leadership and making coverage calls.

Aaron Donald is inserting himself in that conversation to me (and as a Seahawks fan i kind of hate it).
2739733, RE: I have a hard time finding any flaws w/this list
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Jun-09-21 04:27 PM
>Lott and Ed Reed feel the most QB equivalent to me, because
>of the way they saw and read the whole field, along
>w/leadership and making coverage calls.
>
>Aaron Donald is inserting himself in that conversation to me
>(and as a Seahawks fan i kind of hate it).

yep, JJ Watt seemed like he was on that road but I guess injuries slowed him down?
2740005, Mike Singletary comes to mind, but Ray Lewis is better. Dick Butkus?
Posted by dillinjah, Sat Jun-12-21 04:40 PM
.