personally I think Steph's teams' record keeps him out of any serious MVP convo's despite his recent hot streak but some disagree...

I feel like with the games Embiid has missed the award is Jokic's to lose. Will he be the first MVP drafted in the 2nd round?

Giannis team's record is slightly down but he's basically putting if the same numbers he did the last 2 years when he won the award...

cases can be made for almost any of the Brooklyn big 3 but they can't stay on the court...

Poll question: NBA MVP check...

Poll result (17 votes) Jokic (5 votes) Vote Embiid (1 votes) Vote Giannis (0 votes) Vote Harden (0 votes) Vote Steph(lol) (9 votes) Vote somebody else? - post it below (2 votes) Vote

Will is Jokic.

I posted this somewhere else, but if you have a close race for most any award in sports that is voted on by people (fans 0r media), the white athlete or white ppls favorite will often win because of bias and racism.

Jokic has had a hell of a season and deserves it
- Stats check
- Fewest missed games check
- Den record check (slow start hurt him early but even though their 4th seed now he has the same amount of wins basically as our Eastern favorites)

-- AND he will get a being white boost when it comes tie to vote. If I had money to put on who will win, it goes to Jokic.

to do with it in this situation.

He legitimately deserves it because he has been the most consistent.
He has not missed any games. He has not had any load management,
and he has continued to produce while missing Murray and Barton.

Plus a center hasn’t won it in quite some time, so he will have that
going for him.

He hands down the MVP.

Thats not what Im saying. I wrote that he deserves it this year.
But in all these cases. lets assume Embiid was not injured --it'd be a much closer race and if I had money to place on the race, Id almost always take the white guy in a close race where I have to correctly guess the winner whether he deserves it or not.

>to do with it in this situation.
>
>He legitimately deserves it because he has been the most
>consistent.
>He has not missed any games. He has not had any load
>management,
>and he has continued to produce while missing Murray and
>Barton.
>
>Plus a center hasn’t won it in quite some time, so he will
>have that
>going for him.
>
>He hands down the MVP.

Like, it'd take someone like Giannis going on an undefeated streak to end the season while dropping 30-10-8. Or Steph going on an undefeated streak to end the season while dropping 45 PPG.

Or, if we wanted the ultimate Make Em Mad situation, if Denver goes on a losing streak, Dallas goes undefeated to end the season and gets a Top 4 seed? Then Luka could get it and the whole fucking internet would absolutely explode.

But literally all of those situations are insanely unlikely. It's Jokic. 98% confidence.

>
>Or, if we wanted the ultimate Make Em Mad situation, if Denver
>goes on a losing streak, Dallas goes undefeated to end the
>season and gets a Top 4 seed? Then Luka could get it and the
>whole fucking internet would absolutely explode.
>

We'd achieve Peak Discourse.

.

The other candidates all have something working against them.

Steph is playing out of his mind, but that team’s record sinks his chances. It ain’t like baseball where you can win MVP even if you’re on a shitty team.

Embiid was closest, but injuries have come back and the Sixers aren’t looking as strong as they were a few weeks ago.

Giannis was already at a disadvantage. He won 2 in a row so there’s a feeling of “we’ve sent it all before” with him, whether that’s fair or not.

Harden has been amazing but he’s missed games and was traded onto a team that had a good shot at making the finals without him. Given a full season he would have a strong case, but it’s tough to care about this dude’s regular season stats at this point. Maybe that’s unfair, but that has to be in the back of voters’ minds.

He won't. But it would be amazing if he did.

Said before the season started...if GSW make the playoffs, Steph is the MVP
Can’t believe he did it w/o Wiseman and then Oubre

I don’t have a problem with whoever wins it
Widest field I can remember
Donovan
CP3
Joker
Steph
Embiid
Harden
Randle
Russy...all had MVP caliber seasons
Salute to whoever wins

I’d vote for Steph.

.

prior to his arrival?
What changed between last year's 10th place finish and this years 2nd?
I wonder.

Devin Booker is still the most important player on that team. Adding Chris Paul didnt change that fact. Take Devin Booker away and that team doesnt make the playoffs with just Chris Pauls 16 pts and 8 assists.

with a worse roster than the suns.

obviously steph also had a much bigger load to lift.

out this year.

i'm saying steph, although that's unlikely. jokic balled tf out all year. i got no problem at all w/ him getting it.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

Steph in the convo isn’t laughable is all I’m saying

>Steph in the convo isn’t laughable is all I’m saying

on a 8th place team it is, its not a stats award, CP3 is more deserving than Steph

That makes your entire post obsolete

And still minus Klay Thompson. Youre a Steph Curry hater, its obvious.

went to the best player on the best or one of the best teams in the league. And yes Russ got it on a 6th seed for a statistical accomplishment that hadn't happened in 50 years but that was an exception. Jokic and Embiid are the main competitors this season.

>And still minus Klay Thompson. Youre a Steph Curry hater, its
>obvious.

Harden was a thought if it wasn't for this injury stretch.

Jokic, Giannis 1 and 2 are no brainers...if i had to vote for 5 i'd go

Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Lillard
Embiid

Hon Mention: Curry had an amazing year but so did the other guys i listed with better team records.

MVP - Jokic
6MOY - Joe Ingles or Jordan Clarkson (early returns are for Jingles)
MIP - Randle
DPOY - Probably Gobert, right?
ROY - Could see this being a co-ROY but it should be Ant's.

MVP - Jokic, I love what Embiid did this year but Jokic played in all 72 games, I think Embiid is the better overall player but Jokic had the better season
6MOY - Jordan Clarkson - what he did for that team this year was impressive
MIP - Michael Porter Jr. - dude more than doubled his ppg average
DPOY - Simmons - he's a monster and in this era of switching everything on defense a guy that can legitimately guard 1 through 5
ROY - Anthony Edwards - he played more and low-key the Hornets got worse when he came back
COTY - Monty Williams

its hard to argue with jokic consistently being at the top of the pile from the beginning of the year to the end.

basically it was his to lose for a while and nobody really dethroned him. his case actually got strengthened when murray went down and they didnt really miss a beat.

DEN had every excuse to fall back and they remained steady throughout, mostly because Jokic's play didn't fall off.

Based on his stats, Jokic is the best candidate but his game is so unsexy. I was watching a highlights video package on him on YouTube.

The narrator would praise his playmaking ability despite having a Time of Possession rating much lower than players with his assists numbers.

He made a lot of nice passes, but to be honest the video was kind of boring relative to watching Steph or Dame rain threes from underneath their own basket. Or viewing Embiid clown fools in the post.

According to the advanced numbers he's having one of the best offensive seasons in league HISTORY. But I can't say that he has a series of games like Steph did last month or even the narrative of Embiid finally breaking through and realizing his potential.

He's just not an MVP in the sense of physical or athletic dominance like we've seen, maybe ever.

no disrespect to the other dudes.

ain't nobody out there getting double and triple teamed at halfcourt, getting box and 1'd and all kindsa shit. whose team's next best player don't average double figure points per game.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

Jokic just had a better true shooting percentage than Dirk ever did. Think about that for a second. And it wasn't that close either.

Dirk's MVP season, he put up a true shooting percentage of 60.5%, an offensive win share of 11.8 (led the NBA), and an offensive BPM of 7.2 (led the NBA). Jokic had a true shooting percentage of 64.7% (!) while shooting over an additional 3 per game (!!), he had offensive win share of 12.2 (led the NBA), and an offensive BPM of 9.2 (led the NBA). And just to be clear, I'm not saying Jokic is better than Dirk or can do everything Dirk did... but this regular season, he shot at a superior efficiency to the best shooting big man in NBA history.

Then add to that that Jokic is the best passing pure big man... maybe ever? Most of the best passing bigs of all time did their damage nearly entirely from the paint. Jokic has elite passing from the paint, from the high post, from outside the key, on fast breaks... dude is a top ten passer in the NBA today, which is *bonkers* for a center.

So this season, Jokic basically answered the question "what if prime Dirk Nowitzki also had Lebron's passing?" Which sounds like hyperbole... unless you checked the stats or watched him play.

They also went 18-7 without Murray at the end. They won 65.2% of their games total... and they won 72% of their games down the stretch without their best wing scorer and playmaker. THEY LOST JAMAL MURRAY AND SOMEHOW THEIR RECORD GOT BETTER.

Steph would 100% be my second place vote. What he did this year was incredible. I get that it's weird that a guy who's been MVP had maybe his best individual season to date this year but then doesn't win MVP again. He also has great narrative appeal, and he has the flashier, sexier moments. Jokic is only sexy to the efficiency crowd, his highlights so rarely get retweeted. Curry is sexy to everyone, because he's one of the most fun, appealing, and fucking delightful players to ever step on the basketball court.

... but the numbers don't lie. The stats don't lie. The eyes don't lie. Jokic played the entire season at an elite level, put up prime Dirk level shooting and elite passing for an entire season, lost his primary wing weapon for a third of the season, but still continued running the offense masterfully and carrying his team to the 3 seed in the fucking West.

I just don't know how you argue against that with anything other than "yeah, but I like Steph more and the story is sexy." Which is fair, I reckon, since MVP doesn't have a clear set of requirements... but yeah, it's gonna be Jokic. And probably in a landslide.

From beginning to end, he dominated.

After all, it rewards the best season, not the best overall player.

Don't think Nash was ever top 5. Jokic is debatable. Was Dirk top 5 getting his MVP? Westbrook definitely was not. Hell, was Rose?

I don't think, going into their first MVP years, anyone would've said they're a Top 5 lock-- more hovering around Top 10. But once you have an MVP type season, and you make a conference finals (or go further), you get a pretty serious bump in your status.

Like, if Jokic is a Top 3 candidate for MVP again next season too, or if he carries this team to the Finals this year on his back somehow? It's gonna be really goddamn hard to keep him out of the Top 5 going forward.

when Giannis was back to back MVP and DPOY he wasn't top 5?

>I don't think, going into their first MVP years, anyone
>would've said they're a Top 5 lock-- more hovering around Top
>10. But once you have an MVP type season, and you make a
>conference finals (or go further), you get a pretty serious
>bump in your status.
>
>Like, if Jokic is a Top 3 candidate for MVP again next season
>too, or if he carries this team to the Finals this year on his
>back somehow? It's gonna be really goddamn hard to keep him
>out of the Top 5 going forward.

I agree if Jokic carries his team to the Finals he will force his way into the top 5 but I don't know if he get's past Ayton and Gobert.

>>I don't think, going into their first MVP years, anyone
>>would've said they're a Top 5 lock-- more hovering around
>Top
>>10. But once you have an MVP type season, and you make a
>>conference finals (or go further), you get a pretty serious
>>bump in your status.

When you said, "when Steph was unanimous MVP he wasn't considered a top 5 player? when Giannis was back to back MVP and DPOY he wasn't top 5?"... do you not see how that's absolutely not what I said above? They weren't top 5 going into their *first* MVP seasons. Then, winning an MVP and having a strong playoff season helped secure them into the Top 5.

getting there?

For a lot of people he's only MVP because he stayed healthy all year but Embiid is considered a better all-around player.

1. I don’t know if he’s Top 5 just due to the MVP, because, like Nash, of his defensive deficiencies and because of how hard the league leans on guys who create from the perimeter for both themselves and others. I think he’s fairly indisputable Top 5 offensive players in the league, so he’s almost certainly Top 10. But like I said elsewhere, if he can be a Top 3 MVP candidate again next year— or if he can somehow will this short handed Nuggets team to the WCF? Then I think it’s gonna be increasingly hard to leave him out— especially considering how a couple of the consensus Top 5 guys are getting up there in age.

2. Even if Embiid had played a full season, Jokic had a historically good offensive season for a big man. I think it’d have easily been Jokic regardless. That said, I agree that Embiid’s two way impact means I’d theoretically start a team with him over Jokic… that said again, it’s hard to ignore Embiid’s health history compared to Jokic’s. While Jokic’s lack of athleticism certainly caps his upside to some extent (a funny thing to say, given that he just won NBA MVP), it also means his game is less reliant on movement, so he’s less likely to get hurt and he’s less likely to be ineffective the older he gets. He could genuinely play like this for damn near another decade. It’s hard to ignore the impact on the floor an elite passing and elite shooting big like Jokic has. So I don’t know. That’s a tough call, and I think they’re way closer overall than people like to admit.

>1. I don’t know if he’s Top 5 just due to the MVP,
>because, like Nash, of his defensive deficiencies and because
>of how hard the league leans on guys who create from the
>perimeter for both themselves and others. I think he’s
>fairly indisputable Top 5 offensive players in the league, so
>he’s almost certainly Top 10. But like I said elsewhere, if
>he can be a Top 3 MVP candidate again next year— or if he
>can somehow will this short handed Nuggets team to the WCF?
>Then I think it’s gonna be increasingly hard to leave him
>out— especially considering how a couple of the consensus
>Top 5 guys are getting up there in age.
>
>2. Even if Embiid had played a full season, Jokic had a
>historically good offensive season for a big man. I think
>it’d have easily been Jokic regardless. That said, I agree
>that Embiid’s two way impact means I’d theoretically start
>a team with him over Jokic… that said again, it’s hard to
>ignore Embiid’s health history compared to Jokic’s. While
>Jokic’s lack of athleticism certainly caps his upside to
>some extent (a funny thing to say, given that he just won NBA
>MVP), it also means his game is less reliant on movement, so
>he’s less likely to get hurt and he’s less likely to be
>ineffective the older he gets. He could genuinely play like
>this for damn near another decade. It’s hard to ignore the
>impact on the floor an elite passing and elite shooting big
>like Jokic has. So I don’t know. That’s a tough call, and
>I think they’re way closer overall than people like to
>admit.

Nobody ever said it wasn't close. It was close all year. Embiid missed too many games.

So...no.

.

2015-16 NBA 1st DeAndre Jordan C LeBron James F Kawhi Leonard F Stephen Curry G Russell Westbrook G
2015-16 NBA 2nd DeMarcus Cousins C Kevin Durant F Draymond Green F Chris Paul G Damian Lillard G
2015-16 NBA 3rd Andre Drummond C Paul George F LaMarcus Aldridge F Klay Thompson G Kyle Lowry G

Top 4 in 2015, again - Steph's first MVP - was probably some form of Bron, KD, Harden, AD and then it's a toss up from there. I don't think Steph was widely considered top 5 until the end of that season, if at all.

when he was unanimous MVP if he was top 5 player and you say no I'm asking you to name your top 5.

Stop trying to spin in into something else. Answer the question or STFU.

His first MVP was what vaulted him to top 5 (if not before). That wasn’t 2016.

2016? Unanimous MVP year? Yeah obvious top 5.

What are we talking about here?

No one has argued he wasn’t top 5 by his consensus MVP season— only that he wasn’t top 5 by the start of his first MVP season. I think that point is super clear and pretty transparently factual.

down live a grown ass man.

Steph was an arguable Top 5 player when he won his first MVP. It wasn’t at all arguable on the 2nd (unanimous) one. I legitimately do not understand your argument.

Are you arguing that Steph was a Top 5 player before his first MVP? Giannis before his? Because you only brought up in reply #48 Steph and Giannis after they already won an MVP— and Ryan and I both agree that Steph and Giannis were Top 5 after their first MVP seasons.

So… I just don’t know why you countered me like you did, or why there’s any debate taking place, lol. I’m genuinely confused.

www.rif.org

I’d hope you can see why everyone in this post is wondering what you meant. I posted about Steph and Giannis’s first season. You replied about their second MVP seasons—

you know what? never mind, lol. Not worth it. Yes, they were top 5 by their second MVP seasons. And I never said differently. Any semantics you wanna debate endlessly with Ryan, you go for it. *pulls chute, is jettisoned away from post*

not if he was top 5. obviously we got the answer in the finals but idk what Truth is on here

And compared him to a guy who just won one?

Like what IS your argument here? Explain it. Because you’re waffling.

>His first MVP was what vaulted him to top 5 (if not before).
>That wasn’t 2016.
>
>2016? Unanimous MVP year? Yeah obvious top 5.
>
>What are we talking about here?

you asked was Steph not top 5 in his unanimous mvp season. Ryan’s response ended with…so, no. That may have given the feel that his answer to your question, was no… I think we ALL agree, though…
2015 Steph was probably top 10
2016 Steph was clearly top 5

>Ryan’s response ended with…so, no. That may have given
>the feel that his answer to your question, was no…

"so, no" does not mean "no" in English?

I see why you see his response that way. I honestly do. I just don’t think that’s what he meant to say.

It’s phrasing.

I’m saying “so, no” to indicate that you were wrong in bringing up 2016. He was a reigning MVP who won a 2nd one after a 73 win year. Obviously he was top 5 at that point. I said “so no” because it’s a disingenuous argument to bring up his 2nd MVP when the point was sometimes an MVP vaults you into that discussion. At that point Steph had an MVP. Same with Giannis last year.

Anyway, get caught up in 2 words if you want. I can’t be any more clear.

a lot of folks a lot of typing.

I thought in 2021 it was understood that "no" means "no".

You said: Other than Nash and Jokic has there ever been someone named MVP who wasn't top 5

Longo said: Steph and Giannis made the leap to top 5 after their first MVP.

You said: Steph wasn't top 5 in the year he won a unanimous MVP?

I said: That's his 2nd MVP so...no. (And now editorial from me: That "no" is to say that this is not the argument we were having)

Get it?

If you don't, I don't care at this point. You're being dense and you changed the argument. Oh well.

>Don't think Nash was ever top 5. Jokic is debatable. Was Dirk
>top 5 getting his MVP? Westbrook definitely was not. Hell, was
>Rose?

I think Dirk was definitely in the conversation. I think Russ and Rose were for a hot minute.

At least I get along with other Bulls posters while disagreeing

Lakers fans cussing and capping on each other....

I guess Ls do that to a fanbase.