https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

10: Shaq
9: Kobe
8: Duncan
7: Bird
6: Wilt
5: Magic
4: Russell
3: Kareem
2: LBJ
1: MJ

I think they got the top 3 correct (regardless of how you rank) - not sure I'd rate Russell ahead of Wilt - and you could make a case for Hakeem being in this mix as well. I also think Durant is knocking on that top 10 door as well if he continues on his trajectory.

-->

I'm tired of this argument and have been for a long time now, but I have no qualms with how people rate the top 3 so long as it's those dudes.

>I'm tired of this argument and have been for a long time now,
>but I have no qualms with how people rate the top 3 so long as
>it's those dudes.

Agreed. The arguments for Kareem, MJ & LeBron are extremely compelling when you're forced to narrow it down to 3.


-->

Even ranking Cap ahead of Wilt seems odd or in that case I think Russell would have to be higher because you'd be looking at career/team accomplishments.

I also think Oscar and Elgin get short-changed often. That whole era is getting to be out of sight out of mind and that is just wrong.

And the ranking of Russell over Wilt shows just how often we conflate team success/achievement with individual success/achievement.



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Duncan ahead of Hakeem is just criminal. The greatest two way center off all time. Man won MVP, championship MVP and defensive player of the year all in one year.



I have Lebron in the top 10, but not ahead of magic. He is my number 2, went to the championship in three different decades. Him and Bird saved the NBA, won five championships, had possibly the greatest game in championship history where he played center for Kareem, where he scored 42 points and 15 rebounds as freaking rookie.

1/1a. Jordan/Wilt
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4.Lebron
5. Russell
6 Hakeem
7 Bird
8.Duncan
10. Kobe

and think it's yet another example of how this can't simply just be a ring-count. If it was, Russell would be on everyone's list as #1 (and nobody really has him as the GOAT).

At their respective peaks, Hakeem was more dominant and a greater individual player. Duncan was perfect in the S.A. system, but without being surrounded by so many HOF'ers and two iterations of elite Spurs teams (Robinson & Kawhi teams), does Duncan win as many rings? Highly unlikely.

Hakeem also is only player in league history to be DPOY, MVP & Finals MVP in same season. I also think that Jordan and the Bulls were fortunate to miss that Rockets team. If Jordan hadn't retired in '94 - that Rockets team could've dethroned them - especially looking back now and seeing gassed Jordan was (emotionally and physically) after the first three-peat.




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what was that?

SMH.

Dream was an all time though.

He got his first without that true #2 option to boot, which is huge.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Tim, Isaiah, Brawn, Steph, they all had at least one HOF in their prime for their chips.

Only two cats I can recall who didn't have that is Dream (one the first) and Dirk. I suppose you could debate how close Kidd was from his prime, but IMO he was nowhere his prime at that point. He, Marion and Terry were still good players, but none were at a level of a HOF at that time.

Parker and Ginobli were nowhere close to their peak and DRob was severely limited with his age and injuries. Not a single go to scorer he could rely on. Ginobli, Stephen Jackson, and Parker all shot below 38%.

Lol what?

Dude

Not one year did Shaq lead the league in rebounding or block shots...not one year.. how can you be a dominant center?

Hakeem lead the league in rebounding twice and block shots 4 times!

And he is 1 of three players to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. The other two players are Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Hakeem has a foot work like a guard and insane skill level.

Shaq wasn’t skillful. No perimeter jump shot, nothing....shaq just bowled over people, and had nothing else. Couldn’t hit free throws

You are bugging. Hakeem was the michael Jordan of centers.

Dude destroyed Shaq, Ewing and Robinson all in the same era.

Shaq is so overrated it’s hilarious.

>
>Not one year did Shaq lead the league in rebounding or block
>shots...not one year.. how can you be a dominant center?

Is leading the league the sole criteria now? I think his rebounding numbers were a bit low overall, but they compare favorably with Dream, who wasn't an obscenely great rebounder.

>Hakeem lead the league in rebounding twice and block shots 4
>times!
>
>And he is 1 of three players to get 200 steals and 100 blocks
>in a season. The other two players are Michael Jordan and
>Scottie Pippen. Hakeem has a foot work like a guard and
>insane skill level.

Agreed. Hakeem was insanely good. Had he been drafted to Portland, he and Drex very well could have been a dynastic duo in their own right.

Pair him with a top shelf point guard, a Gary Payton, or Tim Hardaway, or a two, shit give him a Mitch Richmond. He may have had a few more chips, and Mike may have had one or two less.

It's worth noting that he didn't have a big time number 2 until drex showed up at the end of his caree, and he got chuck when both were at the end.


>Shaq wasn’t skillful.

Dead wrong, at least offensively. Defensively he was a beast, but not.for the reasons Dream was. Dream was a superior defender.

>No perimeter jump shot

For WHAT? his size, strength, agility, and quickness on the block was unmatched in his era. Shaq shooting jumpers detracts from the things that made him such an imposing, intimidating force.

>nothing....shaq just bowled over people, and had nothing else.

Spin move, baby hook, excellent passer from the block, an alley oop machine, and, yes, he could bowl people over in ways few ever could.

Just being able to bowl people over isn't an easy thing. We've seen big and strong centers, but not with HIS strength at HIS size with HIS quickness and athleticism. He's a matchup nightmare.

>Couldn’t hit free throws

Yeah, he had some weaknesses.

>You are bugging. Hakeem was the michael Jordan of centers.
>Dude destroyed Shaq, Ewing and Robinson all in the same era.

He did. And I think he's criminally unheralded in the pantheon discussions.

>Shaq is so overrated it’s hilarious.

Not in the slightest. Your love for Dream seems to be clouding your judgement ok n Shaq
.

You just pointed out all the reasons why shaq is slightly overrated.

He wasn’t fundamentally sound and he was lazy. He didn’t take care of his body.

He never established a midrange, so when he couldn’t overpower people in the post any longer, he didn’t have a shot he could rely on. Like Kareem played forever because he had an unstoppable shot

Hakeem was the better athlete, better center and had the way better all around game,
just saying.

Even putting shaq over Moses Malone is criminal , who won mvp three times and was a rebounding beast , possibly the greatest PURE rebounding center of all time , and played from the age of 19 to the age of 39. Led league in rebounding 6 times. He holds the record for most offensive rebounds in a career, season, and game.

In terms of dominant big men. Shaq was the alpha MVP in Laker Land; Finals MVP for all three of those titles with Kobe as 2nd in command. I think we often confuse team dominance with individual dominance. Shaq and Hakeem were more individually dominant than Duncan - as was Wilt. Wilt killed Russell every time they played (averaging damn near 30 & 30! lol) - and holding Russell to 14 ppg shooting under 37% from the field. Russell clearly was on the better team - but I don't know how you can say he was better than Wilt.



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At Shaq's peak he was literally unguardable. Just a force. It was great to watch.

But he also didn't sustain that pace throughout his career. He knew when to pick his spots, especially in the postseason. All in all, his career doesn't match up to Hakeem and even Duncan.

Having Shaq in the top 10 just seems odd to me. Kobe as well, to be fair. It's hard to seperate their myth from their play. It also doesn't help that they played so recently and their greatness is so embedded into our minds, relative to greats of past eras.

It's clear to see Shaq or even Jordan and think you're seeing something that humans shouldn't be able to do. But obviously Duncan and Hakeem and others managed to do great things but just weren't as flashy. Seperating the style from the substance is hard and, this is just me talking, less athletically gifted players get short-thrift relative to great athletes because we (me included), in this modern age, value spectacular play over craft.

I'd have Shaq (and Kobe) closer to 12 or 15 then top 10.

But really once you get anywher from 8 to 12 or 15, your lists just favor personal preference more than anything. I'm not mad at the ESPN list, it just isn't my top 10, which is fine.

Dude never led the league in rebounds or blocked shots. Dude only made three All-Defensive teams and none of them were 1st team.

I fail to understand the word dominance as it relates to Shaq especially since its no seen in his overall game.

and don't just read nerd ass stats. The entire league was afraid of Shaq.

He's easily the most dominant player since Wilt.

There was a point in time where he dominated the competition that was put in front of him. This was especially after the other top centers were gone. But yes... He did dominate.

We, IMO, throw that word around too easily. Of course, mofos feared a 7’3” 340+ pound mofo who was in the paint. I just don’t understand how people say he was that dominant when he never led the league in blocks or rebounds especially during that time.

almost .60% CAREER fgp at almost 25ppg.

NOBODY will EVER come close to that.

I know some people will run in here to say Zion but can he do it as long as Shaq did? We'll see...

MDE

Most Dominant Ever.

It seems to me that you measure his dominance by what he did on the offensive end. There’s no dispute there.

However, I equate dominance to consistent superiority on both ends.

I get your point though. He was a monster in the paint during his peak era.

The Lakers were only able to three-peat because they had people like AC Green, Horace Grant & Samaki Walker bolstering their trash center?

During that run, he made the 2nd or 3rd Team NBA Defensive Team. He didn’t lead the league in rebounds or blocks during those years or any other one. But yes... During that run, he played great defense.

A good two or three year run doesn’t necessarily make him the MDE though especially when there are cats, like TD, Hakeem, and Kareem, who were consistently playing great on both sides of the ball.

Shaq’s great! Yes! Shaq, as the most dominant ever, just doesn’t resonate with me.

it’s funny how people want to put Hakeem over Shaq for winning that one series when Shaq STILL put up numbers but don’t look at Shaq having a better record in multiple series AND having better significantly numbers in the playoffs against Duncan.

It’s one of those things people want both ways like counting rings when it only benefits their side of the argument.

>RE: when he got the ball in the paint you either fouled him or got dunked on...

^^^ true as hell. Funny to read in writing.


>almost .60% CAREER fgp at almost 25ppg.
>
>NOBODY will EVER come close to that.
>
>I know some people will run in here to say Zion but can he do
>it as long as Shaq did? We'll see...
>
>MDE
>
>Most Dominant Ever.

>Hakeem also is only player in league history to be DPOY, MVP &
>Finals MVP in same season. I also think that Jordan and the
>Bulls were fortunate to miss that Rockets team. If Jordan
>hadn't retired in '94 - that Rockets team could've dethroned
>them - especially looking back now and seeing gassed Jordan
>was (emotionally and physically) after the first three-peat.

they were an AVERAGE John Starks shooting performance from losing in 7 to a Knicks team that the Bulls sans Mike took to 7, and if not for that Hugh Hollins call, may have lost to the Bulls in 6.

Dream was EATING regardless of who was guarding him, but with Jordan and Pippen on the wing, are those guards getting those open kickout threes? Bulls centers were rarely more than serviceable but they knew how to use their size and their fouls. Second three peat Bulls may fare better due to Rodman being able to defend Dream better than Horace, but Bulls championship teams always had formidable front courts.

Would have been some classics to watch. And nerve wracking as shit....

That Back-to-Back Rockets team was likely better than all of the other Finals opponents for the Bulls.

>they were an AVERAGE John Starks shooting performance from
>losing in 7 to a Knicks team that the Bulls sans Mike took to
>7, and if not for that Hugh Hollins call, may have lost to the
>Bulls in 6.

True - but that Knicks team was no slight. That same Knicks team took prime Jordan and prime Pip/MJ/Horace '92 Bulls to 7 games and pushed them to the brink. Also, that Pippen-led Bulls team in '94 was *very* good, and Pip lead them barely any falloff from the previous year with MJ (just a 1-game difference in the reg. season).

Also, the Rockets *swept* Shaq and the Magic in '95 after they beat the Knicks. Jordan and the Bulls got stopped in '95 in the semis by that same Magic squad, and even if the Bulls would've pulled that series out and won in the ECF, that's a tall order to beat prime Hakeem and that Rockets team. Dream was unstoppable for those two years. Ate up everyone on both sides of the ball.

>Dream was EATING regardless of who was guarding him, but with
>Jordan and Pippen on the wing, are those guards getting those
>open kickout threes? Bulls centers were rarely more than
>serviceable but they knew how to use their size and their
>fouls. Second three peat Bulls may fare better due to Rodman
>being able to defend Dream better than Horace, but Bulls
>championship teams always had formidable front courts.

Indeed. Clearly, prime MJ/Pip and the Bulls could beat *any* team in NBA history - including that Rockets squad - but I also think the timing is key here. If Jordan decides to continue in '94 and go for 4-in-a-row - does he get worn out (especially given what we know now from the "The Last Dance" in terms of his on and off the court strains)?

Jordan faced an older Magic in the Finals in '91 - and then lost to a very young '95 Shaq who was learning how to win (albeit in a late-stage comeback attempt where Jordan wasn't prime) -- but I think it's pretty clear that '94/'95 Hakeem clearly would've been the best individual talent & two-way player that Jordan ever faced in the 90's.

>Would have been some classics to watch. And nerve wracking as
>shit....

Would've been epic.


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So those Laker teams have their stuff too

Also: Portland couldnt get a call against the
Lakers in that comeback in the first chip I believe

So that "Starks" stuff is bullshit



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

https://twitter.com/i/status/1260610651355058177

https://twitter.com/lukerose2525/status/1260581440036777989

https://twitter.com/lukerose2525/status/1260581440036777989

https://twitter.com/LanceTHESPOKEN/status/1260651075477991425

https://twitter.com/ClutchLikeRomo/status/1260650103242539009

https://twitter.com/NathenVieira/status/1260663861780320257

https://twitter.com/GAPhilterfish/status/1260678592121450497

https://twitter.com/thefake_mglocks/status/1260895838567567360

https://twitter.com/mikejayss/status/1260882834757214210

https://twitter.com/DynastyTV__/status/1260868585934725120

Anyone who thinks Russell wouldn't get destroyed by Hakeem isn't being honest.

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It's like people who clown Jack Johnson's comp.

You beat everyone, you beat everyone.

That said, he not in my top 5 Lol

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>It's like people who clown Jack Johnson's comp.
>
>You beat everyone, you beat everyone.

Good analogy. Both Johnson & Russell also had to perform under enormous social pressures and were transformational figures on and off the court/ring. Have to respect Russell - he was the centerpiece of that Celtic dynasty and he neutralized just enough of Wilt to secure those chips.

>That said, he not in my top 5 Lol

Curious to who you've got in your 5? It kinda feels like 5-10 are interchangeable.

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Like, why is having someone of that era at 6 okay... but having someone at 4 is absurd? Why the arbitrary cutoff? lol

It’s the difference between a guy who once averaged 50 versus a 43 percent career shooter.

>It’s the difference between a guy who once averaged 50
>versus a 43 percent career shooter.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7ZYwwaDionMSq84g6

>Like, why is having someone of that era at 6 okay... but
>having someone at 4 is absurd? Why the arbitrary cutoff? lol

I didn't see anyone making a case against a certain era - but the fact that there was only a dozen of teams (with most of them not being very good at all) when Russell won all those rings has to be considered, as the playoffs were a formality and it was all but guaranteed that you'd see the Lakers v. Celtics in the Finals every year. The modern era is far more competitive.

Also, many here have continually regarded Wilt as belonging in the ATG category. Same era as Russell - it's just that you have to look at the individual accomplishments outside of the team accomplishments. Wilt clearly was the more dominant individual talent and just a better basketball player than Russell. Also, saying that Russell wasn't as good as Wilt is not a knock at all - given Wilt's anomalous greatness.

I think people often cite Russell in GOAT arguments as a proxy argument for Jordan or LeBron - because for some - GOAT rankings is simply a ring-count. But Russell is the perfect reason why it *shouldn't* be just a ring-count. Russell has more rings than fingers, but it's virtually impossible to make a credible claim that he was a greater basketball player than Jordan, LeBron, or Kareem (all of whom have less rings by a wide margin).


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That list is some shit from top to bottom.

Or maybe its still too early?

Usually the norm when an all time great passes, it happens in every genre..

But I fully expected him to be wrongly included in the top 5 somewhere. I feel his impact/popularity somewhat outweigh his actual gamesmanship, and that sort of thing usually takes precedent in these kind of lists, for fear of backlash. Prolly why Bill Russell is even in the top 10 convo at all.

I mean, Kobe over Shaq & Hakeem? Really?? Granted, it isn't much of leap considering they ranked right after another. But it kinda diminishes their greatness & sheer dominance imo. Gotta be the rings!

His entire career’s ridiculously overlooked. And his NBA stats, awards, and accomplishments are more than enough to solidify his standing over MJ.

And I’m talking BASKETBALL; not sneakers and marketing campaigns.

I mess with MJ but just not as the game’s best ever.

And for ESPN to have LeBron there, above Kareem, is mad disrespectful to that man’s legacy. I got LeBron, over Bird, as the best SF to ever do it but not the best player to ever do it.


6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980)
19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986)
5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1985)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974, 1975, 1979–1981)
6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970, 1971, 1976–1978, 1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1970)
2× NBA scoring champion (1971, 1972)
NBA rebounding champion (1976)
4× NBA blocks leader (1975, 1976, 1979, 1980)
No. 33 retired by Milwaukee Bucks
No. 33 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
3× NCAA champion (1967–1969)
3× NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1967–1969)
3× National college player of the year (1967–1969)
3× Consensus first-team All-American (1967–1969)
No. 33 retired by UCLA Bruins
2× Mr. Basketball USA (1964, 1965)
Presidential Medal of Freedom (2016)

79-2 in high school.

>His entire career’s ridiculously overlooked. And his NBA
>stats, awards, and accomplishments are more than enough to
>solidify his standing over MJ.
>
>And I’m talking BASKETBALL; not sneakers and marketing
>campaigns.
>
>I mess with MJ but just not as the game’s best ever.
>
>And for ESPN to have LeBron there, above Kareem, is mad
>disrespectful to that man’s legacy. I got LeBron, over Bird,
>as the best SF to ever do it but not the best player to ever
>do it.
>
>
>6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
>2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
>6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977,
>1980)
>19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
>10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981,
>1984, 1986)
>5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1985)
>5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974, 1975, 1979–1981)
>6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970, 1971, 1976–1978,
>1984)
>NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
>NBA All-Rookie First Team (1970)
>2× NBA scoring champion (1971, 1972)
>NBA rebounding champion (1976)
>4× NBA blocks leader (1975, 1976, 1979, 1980)
>No. 33 retired by Milwaukee Bucks
>No. 33 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
>NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
>3× NCAA champion (1967–1969)
>3× NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1967–1969)
>3× National college player of the year (1967–1969)
>3× Consensus first-team All-American (1967–1969)
>No. 33 retired by UCLA Bruins
>2× Mr. Basketball USA (1964, 1965)
>Presidential Medal of Freedom (2016)
>
>79-2 in high school.

>2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)

>
>>2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)

Kareem's longevity is a big reason why he's in the GOAT discussion and a consensus top 3 -- but that same list (only 2 Finals MVPs out of 6) has to be considered as well. He was carried by prime Magic for a lot of those chips on historic, all-time great Laker teams with crazy depth.

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Carried by Magic. GOH... He won the Finals MVP in 1985. Carried?

And I’m including Cap’s entire basketball career; not just the NBA time.

LeBron (your guy) has been in the league longer than MJ too. So he’s got the longevity without the rings. How did he make it into the top 3 and over Cap?

Kareem has set the standard for longevity greatness - but LeBron is knocking on that door in a very real way (he could finish 1st in points and top 3 in assists all-time, which is bananas).

>Carried by Magic. GOH... He won the Finals MVP in 1985.
>Carried?

1980 Finals MVP: Magic
1982 Finals MVP: Magic
1987 Finals MVP: Magic
1988 Finals MVP: Worthy

Kareem was on all of those teams - but often wasn't the best player on his team for those 4 years in the biggest moments (and wasn't even the 2nd best player on some of those teams late in his career). So the bulk of his titles came on a ridiculously deep team to where he could essentially be role player. Still, he's in my top 3 because of how great he was for so long (he was ATG level for so many years earlier in his career - even though he only won 1 title playing at that level) - but his road to 6 championships was very different than Jordan's - who had to carry all of those championship teams as the undisputed #1 guy.

>LeBron (your guy) has been in the league longer than MJ too.
>So he’s got the longevity without the rings. How did he make
>it into the top 3 and over Cap?

Because he's a better all-around basketball player.


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I’m still with Kareem though.

Dude was in the league for 7 years before he sniffed a chip. He captured 6 titles in the following 8 years. Put up a bunch of points. Played helluva defense. Won a dunk contest or two. Sold a ton of sneakers, Gatorade, and underwear. Can’t forget the movie too. Oh yeah... Back to basketball..

Show or tell us exactly how MJ was “FOH” better than Kareem.

6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002, 2003)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1985)
10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
3× NBA steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987, 1988)
No. 23 retired by Chicago Bulls
No. 23 retired by Miami Heat
3× AP Athlete of the Year (1991–1993)
Sports Illustrated Sportsperson of the Year (1991)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
NCAA champion (1982)
Consensus national college player of the year (1984)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1983, 1984)
ACC Player of the Year (1984)
2× First-team All-ACC (1983, 1984)
ACC Rookie of the Year (1982)
No. 23 retired by North Carolina Tar Heels
2× USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (1983, 1984)
Presidential Medal of Freedom (2016)

Also, as mentioned, Magic carried Kareem in his later career. Not to mention James Worthy an' 'nem helping out big time. any Jud Beuchler's on them Laker teams?

lol. FOH dawg.

ain't have shit to do with sneakers and gatorade.

I think Westbrook's recent onslaught of triple doubles has kinda diminished Oscar's alleged greatness, in a sense.

Obviously not parallel situations but it somewhat gives context to how a player can be that productive but still not regarded as being all that great.

If I didn't witness Westbrook, I prolly still hold Oscar in higher regard, I had him in my top 5 at one point. lol

I witnessed it too, and it was not on the level of Oscar. It was watered down.

There was no three point shooting back then, so there were no long easy rebounds. Also, Oscar didn't have teammates giving him rebounds.

PLus teams don't play under the basket anymore. They run a spread offense, with the majority of the teams set behind the three point line.

No.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

And Pau was a great fit for that Lakers squad. Lakers also had arguably the most dynamic front lines in the game with Gasol/Bynum (when he was balling) and Odom supporting Kobe. So that Laker team wasn't hurting for talent.

-->

None of those guys were champions until Hakeem took them there, and only Horry went on to contribute to a championship team (as a role player playing a lesser role than when he played in Houston).

I just think that Laker team gets under-rated in terms of its depth and talent. When Kobe had a bad night in the Finals - particularly in game 7 vs. Boston in 2010 when he went 6-for-24 from the field - the Lakers still could win (and they won that game with great team contributions). Hakeem was so individually dominant in the Finals - particularly in '95.




-->

Gasol never even won a series pre-Lakers

is a notable accomplishment.

-->

a conference title is huge deal when the comparison is to a guy that never won a series

other situations it means less

Pau was riding with Mike Miller and Chucky Atkins in Memphis.

Those great Portland teams were strong 1-5 -- just look at the contributions you got from their core on that team that won the WCF in '90:

Clyde: 23/6/5
Porter: 17/9
Kersey: 16/8
Buck Williams: 13/10
Duckworth: 16/6

And you had Cliff Robinson off the bench (who was a 6th man of the year, 2nd all defensive team, and even an all-star).

That was a stacked team. Memphis didn't feature nearly the talent of those Blazers teams.


-->

Memphis was a 50 win team in 04

Jason Williams had his best years in Memphis at that time then turned around and started at PG for a title team in 06

Chucky Atkins played 22 min a game for a conference finalist in 2003 that had no one nearly as talented as Gasol, but his 27 mpg contributed to a 1st round sweep for Memphis?

yes, portland was very good and well balanced. that doesnt mean Memphis wasnt good enough to win *A* playoff game over 3 years instead of going 0-12

but they had nothing on the comprised core of that Portland team.

Career for career - Clyde was obviously the better player - but context matters. Houston Clyde was very late-stage career Clyde. He simply wasn't the same player in Houston that he was in Portland. Conversely, Lakers got a prime Pau Gasol (who combined with prime Bynum and Lamar Odom were widely recognized as being the most dominant front-line in the game) + Kobe. That was a talented squad.


-->

>Career for career - Clyde was obviously the better player -
>but context matters. Houston Clyde was very late-stage career
>Clyde. He simply wasn't the same player in Houston that he
>was in Portland.

1995 was one of the 5 best years of Clyde's career from just about any statistical measure.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html

1995 was prime Clyde anyway you slice it

>1995 was one of the 5 best years of Clyde's career from just
>about any statistical measure.
>
>https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html
>
>1995 was prime Clyde anyway you slice it

He had a nice season in '95 - but I don't think his playoff performance/numbers in '95 were in the top 5 of his best years in terms of productivity and impact - either from a numbers or from an eye-test point of view - but he was still *very* good and an integral reason why they won back to back chips. Without Clyde, that doesn't happen.


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one of the top defenders and THE top 'hitta', and a point guard who won five rings. They weren't 'deep', but lets not act like Kobe rolled in there with the squad AI had when Philly went to the finals. FOH.

Lebron should be jealous.

>Lebron should be jealous.

He's the only guy on that list who didn't have the benefit of HOF coaching. Also goes to show you just how important elite coaching is.

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1. B. Russ
1a. Wilt
2. Jabbar

In that order... you can put anyone else in any spot after that.

It’s impossible to put that into a numbered list.

But there’s nothing else for ESPN to cover and for us to talk about, so it’s cool.

from his top 5 - and rightfully so. Kendrick Perkins gave some great insight into the lineage of the Pierce/Bron static - but clearly his personal feelings are clouding his objectivity - though it is understandable considering how dominant LeBron was against Pierce, sending him home early for an entire decade and thwarting any chance Pierce and the original 3-headed monster (4-headed counting prime Rondo) Celtic teams had to win a 2nd 'chip.

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sending him home early for
>an entire decade and thwarting any chance Pierce and the
>original 3-headed monster (4-headed counting prime Rondo)
>Celtic teams had to win a 2nd 'chip.

Sent him home early for an entire decade? Bron couldn't defeat them in 08 or 10 with the Cavs, then he joined the Heatles to get over that hump. He defeated Pierce's Celtics in 11 and 12 and then Pierce's Nets in 14, so he's 3-2 against Pierce in the playoffs

There's the famous clip of LBJ ripping his Cavs jersey off after the Celtics sent him home in 2010. That being his last moment in a Cavs jersey before the decision.

Weird to just omit that time period. LeBron himself even admitted that the Celtics were the hurdle he had to leap to cement his greatness and win a chip.


>Sent him home early for an entire decade? Bron couldn't defeat
>them in 08 or 10 with the Cavs, then he joined the Heatles to
>get over that hump. He defeated Pierce's Celtics in 11 and 12
>and then Pierce's Nets in 14, so he's 3-2 against Pierce in
>the playoffs

When Bron was young (not even 25) - the Celtics took advantage of a deficient Cavs roster to best him as a pup -- but as soon as LeBron had a squad and came of age - it wasn't even close and Bron terrorized the Celtics for an entire decade (with or without Pierce).

There's this narrative that Pierce was somehow on par with Bron and gave it to him in head to head matchups - but that's a myth. In the 30 playoff games against Pierce, James averaged 29.1 points, 5.3 assists, and 8.4 rebounds, while Pierce averaged 17.0 points, 2.8 assist, and 4.8 rebounds.

Pierce fancied himself as the Bron killer in many respects - and still does to this day - and while he played the game of his life in a game 7 vs Bron (where Bron still got the better of him in that matchup) - it was really more about Bron v. PP/KG/Allen/Rondo and the Celtics than it was Bron v. PP.


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are you talking about Bron vs. Pierce or Bron vs. the Celtics regardless of if they had Pierce? The latter is closeish to true, the former is not.

Also the 2012 and 2018 series went 7 games, so your notion that it "wasn't even close" from 2011 onward isn't even true.

>There's this narrative that Pierce was somehow on par with
>Bron and gave it to him in head to head matchups - but that's
>a myth. In the 30 playoff games against Pierce, James
>averaged 29.1 points, 5.3 assists, and 8.4 rebounds, while
>Pierce averaged 17.0 points, 2.8 assist, and 4.8 rebounds.

No one except Pierce believes he's on par with Bron. Even me, one of the biggest Pierce fans on the planet, can laugh off some of his statements... but he was a killer. That much is true.

I believe Bron is one of 3 guys to have a legitimate claim to GOAT, but as always, you don't have to lie to sell people on that. In fact, acknowledging his playoff failures actually makes the narrative better.

that's a looooot of owning. You'd be hard pressed to find a more dominant run against a singular team in the playoffs in the modern era. I clarified that I'm talking about Bron v. Celtics w/ or without Pierce.

But in the head to head matchup - Bron owned Pierce in the games that mattered most. It's not even close.

>Also the 2012 and 2018 series went 7 games, so your notion
>that it "wasn't even close" from 2011 onward isn't even true.

5-0 after 2010. That ain't close.

But it's true: The Celtics made Bron tougher (just like the Pistons made Jordan tougher). And like Zeke (who still can't give Jordan his just due) - Pierce is bitter from that rivalry and having his legacy ended prematurely by Bron (just like Zeke's legacy ended a bit early by Jordan). So it ain't a mystery to why Pierce can't give Bron his just due.



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And every team LeBron faced a Celtics team in the playoffs.

So yes - that would include the Brooklyn Nets squad purchased by a Russian oligarch
when KG & Pierce teamed up with Joe Johnson and D. Will just to try and beat LeBron.

And got bodied.

Absolutely counts. Or were we only counting when Bron was a pup on a trash Cleveland roster?

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>RE: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, 2018 = decade.

My condolences.

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.

>Kendrick Perkins gave
>some great insight into the lineage of the Pierce/Bron static

>>Kendrick Perkins gave
>>some great insight into the lineage of the Pierce/Bron
>static

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDprA7NAok


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Note that he still referred to Jordan as "the greatest -- which sort of reminds me of boxing analysis that refers to sugar ray robinson or mayweather as the best boxer of all-time, yet Ali as "the greatest" -- I like what Magic did there.

Admittedly, I didn't think that Bron's consensus in the top 3 would coalesce this rapidly (especially pre-retirment) - but we're already here. Well, unless your Skip Bayless or Paul Pierce. But everyone else seems to have come to their objective senses.

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"i didnt think Bron would be in the top 3 at this point" you have posted over a thousand times on this site he is consensus top 3.

actual quote:

"I didn't think that Bron's consensus in the top 3 would coalesce this rapidly (especially pre-retirment)"

"Consensus" means that the majority of analysts/experts are in general agreement. Everyone here knows where I rank LeBron (I made the claim a decade ago on the boards that he'd be a top 3 GOAT) - so of course I have in the top 3 - but the *consensus* opinion now has him in the top 3 to where even some of his loudest critics are putting him on Rushmore when they're forced to narrow down to a top 3 list.

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lmao

if you just halfway pay attn to player interviews when the GOAT discussion comes up you'd know they think Kobe > Lebron. the most common order i hear is MJ, Kobe, Bron with Bron having the opportunity to pass Kobe if he gets a ring w/ the Lakers

but the notion that "most" feel that way lacks evidence - so yea - if you're gonna claim that you better be able to show your work.

I understand why you'd rate Kobe higher as a Laker fan - but the Kobe > LeBron argument died a long time ago bruh. That ship sailed.

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>but the notion that "most" feel that way lacks evidence - so
>yea - if you're gonna claim that you better be able to show
>your work.
>
>I understand why you'd rate Kobe higher as a Laker fan - but
>the Kobe > LeBron argument died a long time ago bruh. That
>ship sailed.
>
>-->

These the same folk that thought Bron was better when Kobe has 5 and Bron had 0
Bron still got some work to do to move up my personal top 10.

Same folk that really thought Nash was putting in more and better work than Kobe when Nash was playing with all stars and Kobe was playing with grocery store workers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ind4Kd2GkhY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ8R6rlgapg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeUQhhrVtsM

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It's not even close.

That's what makes that "debate" strange.


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

For some strange reason I hear Dirk’s name mentioned a lot for leading a somewhat weak cast to a chip and also Dream, but rarely ever a mention of Duncan’s ‘03 team. JasonTerry was a more reliable and efficient scorer than anyone on Duncan’s team. I think people forget that Ginobli and Parker were nowhere close to the players they would eventually become. In the finals, Parker was the 2nd leading scorer with 14.0 pg on 38% shooting. He was so erratic at times that Speedy Claxton had to take over. I respect the hell out of Speedy, but he was a journeyman who never got considerable pt in the playoffs again. Admiral and Stephen Jackson averaged 10 a game and Ginobli just 8. Duncan averaged 24/17/5/5 and 10 minutes a game more than any of his teammates. They took out 3 good teams in Phoenix, Dallas, and the Lakers and Duncan was the absolute best player on the court in every series.

Obviously Duncan is lauded for his consistency and leadership, but he had a very dominant peak that often gets overlooked.

was All-Defense 8 times including 5-time first team and was DPOY runner-up 3 years in a row and top 5 in voting at least 5 times. Stephen Jackson became a borderline All-Star, lets not act like Timmy was playing with scrubs lol

NOT during his time in SA. For someone who criticizes others for not watching games, I’m pretty sure you didn’t watch them yourself. He was a young ascending player on that SAS team, but hardly playing at an all-star level. If he was, I’m sure he would’ve gotten signed for more than 1 mil per year the following season.

The point was, that Duncan’s run in ‘03 is every bit as impressive as Olajuwon and Dirks. People tend to forget that bc they see the names of his teammates and assume they were playing at a high level. They weren’t even remotely close to their respective peaks. Parker got benched in the Finals for Speedy Claxton (are you going to tell me he was another all star snub too?), Ginobli averaged 8ppg while shooting 35%. Captain Jack averaged 10ppg on 37% shooting. Bruce Bowen may have provided some good perimeter defense, but he averaged 3 and 3 on 23% shooting, but I’m sure you think that’s great too. Admiral had a heroic finish, but he was severely limited and couldn’t provide much offense. Again, not a single reliable scorer to be paired with Duncan. Not scrubs, but no all-stars or true #2 to take the pressure off Duncan. And again, he averaged 24/17/5/5. Incredible numbers.

You don’t have to accept Duncan’s greatness, but if you’re going to debate, you can’t just make up lies.

like 4 or 5 years where he was a 20ppg scorer in the NBA it’s not like he’s a scrub. Parker, Ginobili and Robinson weren’t in their primes but they weren’t scrubs either. If you want to discount Bruce Bowen because he didn’t score don’t let me catch you mentioning Bill Russell in any goat convos.

Timmy easily had as much help or more than Hakeem or Zeke.

Dumars averaged 27ppg in the ‘89 Finals. He was good for 20 a game throughout his career and a perennial all-star. The 2nd leading scorer on Duncan’s 03 team was a 20 year old Parker who averaged 14ppg on 38% shooting. Third leading scorer was the 37 year old Admiral with just 10ppg.

Yes, Bruce Bowen played nice perimeter defense, but again, he averaged 3 fucking points and 3 rebounds a game and played less than 30 minutes a game in the Finals. He was hardly the “Bill Russell” type difference maker you apparently think he was. Did you forget that Rodman and Laimbeer were also on those Pistons teams? Vinny Johnson and Mark Aguirre were reliable scorers too.

Yes, Captain Jack went on to have a great career outside of SAS, but he wasn’t playing close to his peak in ‘03. Ginobli and Parker were nowhere close to being the stars they would go on to become.

Do you realize how dumb the argument of “we’ll he played with past and future HOFers” sounds when discussing Duncan’s ‘03 run? Try applying that same logic to other players on this.

prime but the rest of that team was good just like the Rockets were in 94.

Nobody wins a title alone, everyone needs "help", whether its in the form of another All-Star or surrounded by great role players.