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Forum nameOkay Sports
Topic subjectGreatest role players in NBA history?
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2697228
2697228, Greatest role players in NBA history?
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed Dec-31-69 07:00 PM

Poll question: Greatest role players in NBA history?

Poll result (11 votes)
Draymond Green (3 votes)Vote
Robert Horry (3 votes)Vote
Ben Wallace (0 votes)Vote
Scottie Pippen (0 votes)Vote
Bill Russell (3 votes)Vote
somebody else? post it below... (2 votes)Vote

  

2697229, what the fuck is this
Posted by Ryan M, Tue May-28-19 09:26 AM
2697231, Pippen and Russell? GTFOH!
Posted by WarriorPoet415, Tue May-28-19 09:29 AM

______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.
2697236, lmaooooooooooo
Posted by Reeq, Tue May-28-19 09:46 AM
2697239, was Scottie ever winning anything as the main guy without Jordan?
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 09:50 AM
Does he even get in the HOF and Top 50 without Jordan?
2697243, was Jordan ever winning anything as the main guy without Scottie?
Posted by Oak27, Tue May-28-19 10:06 AM
2697245, He would've been a HOF'er regardless
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 10:17 AM
2697249, You got issues.
Posted by legsdiamond, Tue May-28-19 10:55 AM
2697253, do you disagree?
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:07 AM
2697290, Without Jordan, Scottie:
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue May-28-19 02:45 PM
- made three straight All-NBA First Teams
- made four NBA All-Defense First Teams
- came in third in MVP voting
- went to the playoffs in seven straight Jordan-less seasons, only missing the playoffs as a vet who rarely played on the 04 Bulls team
- was one of five players in NBA history to ever lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in a single season
2697293, So...Kyrie a role player?
Posted by bentagain, Tue May-28-19 03:02 PM
You're confusing Robins with Role Players

Scottie absolutely would have been a franchise player

He just happened to be paired with the GOAT for the majority of his career = Robin, not a role player

LOL
2697297, If you're not a Batman you're a Robin, Robins ARE role players...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 03:15 PM
either you're the sun or you're a planet


>You're confusing Robins with Role Players
>
>Scottie absolutely would have been a franchise player
>
>He just happened to be paired with the GOAT for the majority
>of his career = Robin, not a role player
>
>LOL
2697303, So Worthy was a role player? Wade? Bosh? Young Kobe? Gasol?
Posted by DJR, Tue May-28-19 03:47 PM
Cmon, that’s not what “role player” means.
2697304, POAST
Posted by bentagain, Tue May-28-19 03:49 PM
He can’t be serious...Klay and Steph = role players

LOL
2697320, yes, for titles 2& 3 yes, definitely yes, definitely not, yes
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 09:05 PM
>Cmon, that’s not what “role player” means.
2697336, you MIGHT get away with saying Kobe was a role player for the 1st ring...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed May-29-19 08:29 AM
after that he was a grown ass man and he and Shaq were on equal footing.
2697337, See I would say Kobe was the clear 2nd best player for the first title
Posted by DJR, Wed May-29-19 08:46 AM
But he was still a star player. Horry, Harper, Shaw, Fox, etc were the role players. Nobody I know uses “role player” the way you’re using it.
2697338, What do you consider Draymond?
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed May-29-19 10:04 AM
2697379, that is a fair and good question and a tough one to “label”
Posted by DJR, Wed May-29-19 05:24 PM
Many have said he wouldn’t be as effective on other teams and I’ve often agreed with that line of thinking. He’s awfully good and important for GS though, and a force on both ends of the court when at his best.

I certainly wouldn’t put Scottie Pippen in that category though. He was damn near the best player in the league when Mike was playing baseball. What wings in the league were better than him from like 92-98, other than Mike? Maybe Penny for a year? Maybe G. Hill for a year or two? He was a star player that was good at everything.
2697380, I don’t disagree with anything you said and honestly the original...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed May-29-19 05:46 PM
purpose of this post was how to truly quantify Draymond. Because some other names were included to intentionally stir the pot people got emotional and the post was somewhat derailed lol.

Over the years this board has been all over the place with Draymond. Initially he was thought of as just a role player. Then there was a period a few years ago when people were arguing if he was a top 10 player in the entire NBA. That sentiment eventually somewhat cooled. But with this recent playoff run particularly since KD has been out his effectiveness and importance has come back to the forefront.
2697399, RE: Pippen and Russell? GTFOH!
Posted by Selassie I God, Thu May-30-19 12:00 AM
My thought exactly
2697234, RE: Greatest role players in NBA history?
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 09:41 AM
https://youtu.be/EsY6E-O7fY4?t=213
2697242, so disrespectful...
Posted by CyrenYoung, Tue May-28-19 09:52 AM
..lol.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2697248, I picked Big Shot Bob in my head before I clicked the post thread
Posted by legsdiamond, Tue May-28-19 10:54 AM
I didn’t even look at the other people on the list

Pippen? The fuck kinda definition do you have for role players?

ThaLie
2697254, RE: I picked Big Shot Bob in my head before I clicked the post thread
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:08 AM
>I didn’t even look at the other people on the list
>
>Pippen? The fuck kinda definition do you have for role
>players?

reply #5
2697266, Pip led the Bulls in points, assists, steals in 94 and was 2nd in reb.
Posted by DJR, Tue May-28-19 12:04 PM
That’s a role player?
2697272, And lost in the 2nd round...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 12:34 PM
>That’s a role player?
2697292, So? Anthony Davis a role player?
Posted by DJR, Tue May-28-19 02:59 PM
Pippen in Portland after the back problems was a role player. He was one of the 10 best players in the league for a good 5-6 years, in his prime.
2697299, he's a non-MF factor right now
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 03:17 PM
2697305, so was Dream once his whole supporting cast was booted for coke
Posted by DJR, Tue May-28-19 03:55 PM
The narrative got kinda negative on him when those early 90s Rockets teams were doing nothing. That changed pretty quick....and not because he got any better.
2697250, not every thought needs a new post
Posted by Amritsar, Tue May-28-19 10:59 AM
2697251, haha
Posted by LegacyNS, Tue May-28-19 11:00 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================
2697252, Might as well list Jordan and Bron lol...
Posted by soulfunk, Tue May-28-19 11:06 AM
2697255, those are 2 of the top 5 players in NBA history, are any of the players...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:10 AM
listed, outside of the grossly overrated Bill Russell, anywhere near that conversation?
2697261, *tips my cap*
Posted by soulfunk, Tue May-28-19 11:32 AM
This whole post is quality mad-making. Woulda done numbers in OKS's golden era. Cats are way too cynical now to take good agenda-bait...

>outside of the grossly overrated Bill Russell,


2697274, LMFAO
Posted by pretentious username, Tue May-28-19 12:54 PM
>listed, outside of the grossly overrated Bill Russell,
>anywhere near that conversation?

anyone outside of the top 5 is a role player now. What a take! That includes Kobe btw.
2697279, RE: LMFAO
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 01:14 PM
>>listed, outside of the grossly overrated Bill Russell,
>>anywhere near that conversation?
>
>anyone outside of the top 5 is a role player now. What a take!
>That includes Kobe btw.

Which part of “near the conversation” do you not understand? Those other players(sans Russell) aren’t even in the top 25
2697307, Kobe does have 3 rings as a role player
Posted by Oak27, Tue May-28-19 03:57 PM
2697256, Truth found a way to get paid per post on OKS?
Posted by TheRealBillyOcean, Tue May-28-19 11:14 AM
2697258, it seems like that but no the board is just wack now stuff stays on the...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:25 AM
first page for almost a week
2697264, That’s true too.
Posted by TheRealBillyOcean, Tue May-28-19 11:47 AM
2697259, Fuchsia = Worm
Posted by bentagain, Tue May-28-19 11:26 AM
2697260, I thought about putting him in there
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:28 AM
2697262, ^^^^correct answer
Posted by soulfunk, Tue May-28-19 11:33 AM
2697268, He was the 1st one that came to my mind too
Posted by Marbles, Tue May-28-19 12:18 PM

But then I got thrown off by the options in this poll.
2697263, when y'all are done clutching your pearls, if Draymond gets 4 out of 5...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 11:35 AM
is he on Scottie Pippen's level?
2697275, he needs to get to 11
Posted by pretentious username, Tue May-28-19 12:55 PM
to get on the same level as the greatest role player of all-time Bill Russell
2697276, That's a pretty good answer.
Posted by Numba_33, Tue May-28-19 01:03 PM
2697277, Lmao
Posted by guru0509, Tue May-28-19 01:10 PM
>to get on the same level as the greatest role player of
>all-time Bill Russell
2697278, The question was about Draymond and Scottie, get out your punk ass...
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 01:11 PM
Boston feelings
2697419, LOLLL
Posted by Amritsar, Thu May-30-19 10:47 AM
2697294, No
Posted by DJR, Tue May-28-19 03:02 PM
He’s not as good of a player.
2697280, Bill Russell: An Overrated NBA Legend
Posted by ThaTruth, Tue May-28-19 01:34 PM
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/441840-bill-russell-an-overrated-nba-legend

Bill Russell: An Overrated NBA Legend
ETHAN S
AUGUST 23, 2010


Bill Russell is an NBA legend. His legacy is built on a foundation of winning 11 championships in 13 playing seasons, making him the greatest winner in U.S. professional team sports history.

Over his illustrious career, Russell averaged 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, and 4.3 apg. He earned five MVPs, 12 all-star team berths, and won an Olympic gold medal in 1956. If the NBA had always given them out, Russell most likely would have won at least a half dozen Finals MVP awards too.

One of the smartest players in league history, Bill Russell controlled games via defensive backboard domination. He was a master at blocking shots in a way so that either he or a teammate could grab the loose ball. Along with stopping the opposing team from scoring, this ignited the Celtics’ fast break offense.


Much of the impact Russell had on the game was psychological. When thinking about the effect on the opposition by stopping them and igniting the fast break, Russell remarked, “Yes, we did that to you. And if you come back, we'll do it again.”

With all of the accolades, the Professional Basketball Writers Association of America declared Bill Russell to be the “Greatest Player in the History of the NBA” in 1980. While most people believe that Michael Jordan has since taken the title of “Greatest of All-Time”, many still regard Bill Russell as both the second best player of all-time and the greatest center ever.

Yet, despite all of the accomplishments, Russell deserves neither of these titles. He may be the greatest winner in NBA history, but Bill Russell is also one of the league's most overrated players.

The fairest way to rank NBA players is to consider their overall game—both offensively and defensively, championships won, and the ability to play in any era and still dominate. The best players can dominate both ends of the court and win multiple championships (to prove that winning the first time wasn’t a fluke).



Winning



No one can take away Russell’s 11 rings, but are his 11 championships more impressive than Jordan’s six or Magic Johnson’s five? A closer look proves that this isn’t necessarily the case.

Russell played in an era where there were fewer NBA teams—about 10. While some may argue that each team had more concentrated talent, the level of talent does not compare to that of today’s game.


Whereas in the modern era the NBA draws a larger pool of talent from around the country and internationally because of the exorbitant salaries, this was not the case back in the 1950s and 1960s. Salaries were small—so small that many players held second jobs during the offseason to support their families.

In addition to having fewer teams, there were fewer playoff rounds and the top teams (like the Celtics) often got first round byes. Whereas Jordan and Magic had to win 15 playoff games to win a title (and often play upwards of 20 games or more), Russell played between 10 and 14 games to win each of his first eight championships.

By playing fewer postseason games, combined with shorter NBA seasons, this gave Russell a distinct advantage in durability over Jordan and Magic in accumulating wear and tear.

Russell’s teams also were stacked with future Hall of Famers and All-Stars, including John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones, and Bill Sharman. The Celtics teams had far superior talent overall than any other team during his era. And despite all of this talent, Boston barely beat the Lakers in three separate finals, each in seven games.

In four game seven wins against teams led by Wilt Chamberlain, Boston won by a combined nine points. When Boston finally met up with a team that was just as talented—a 1967 Philadelphia 76ers cast that included Chamberlain, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, and Billy Cunningham—the Celtics were unable to win.


It is also arguable that it would be impossible for a team to win eight titles in a row today. This is due to longer seasons, more travel requirements, longer playoff rounds, and rule changes that make it nearly impossible to acquire the talent disparity enjoyed by Russell’s Celtics teams.

Even though Bill Russell remains one of the greatest winners, to put his winning automatically ahead of legends like Jordan and Magic may be a naïve comparison.



Offense



At first glance, Bill Russell’s offensive stats can be seen as mediocre. He didn’t exactly dominate offensively, scoring 15.1 ppg while making 44% of his field goals and 56% of his free throws. One may make an argument that he played more of a team game and was not required to score as much with a cast of other all-stars. Yet, careful analysis of his offensive game shows a different picture.

It is difficult at best to compare different NBA eras, so let’s look at some facts. During the first eight years of Russell’s career, the foul lane in the NBA was only 12 feet wide. After the NBA widened the lane to 16 feet in 1964, Bill Russell only averaged 12.6 ppg—hardly stellar numbers.

Russell had incredible athletic ability and vertical leap, but he had an immense advantage over players of his era, who were smaller, weaker, and less athletic than players today. When Wilt Chamberlain entered the NBA in 1960, there were only four players in the league that were taller than 6-8 (including Wilt at 7-1 and Russell at 6-9).


With all of the offensive rebounds Russell grabbed, his height advantage, and his athletic superiority over opposing players, he should have been able to score more dominantly. In today’s game going against taller and stronger players on a nightly basis, he would not have held these advantages.

Lastly, let’s consider the pace of the game. During the late 1950s and 1960s, NBA teams played in a run-and-gun style offense. The early 1960s was the highest scoring environment in NBA history. In 1961-62, the average team scored 118.8 ppg, the highest in the league’s history.

Furthermore, the average team in the 1962 season had an average of 152 ball possessions. Conversely, over the past two decades in the NBA, teams have averaged about 90-100 possessions per game. Given that this difference gave players during that era 50 percent more opportunities to score, this would give Russell an adjusted scoring average of about 10 ppg in today’s game. And that’s without considering having a 16-foot foul lane and competing against taller players.



Defense



Finally, let’s ponder over Russell’s defense and how it would translate into today’s NBA game. Unfortunately, blocked shots were not recorded during Russell’s career. While Russell was a menace towards opposing teams with his blocking ability, his 6-9, 220 pound frame would likely mean he would be a power forward today.

While Russell today could have bulked up and played a similar role as Ben Wallace as an undersized but strong center, it’s hard to see other teams fearing him more than Big Ben or other top centers of the past few decades, including Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, and Dikembe Mutombo. In addition, each of these centers had between one and four inches on Russell.


Part of the difference between the NBA in the 1960s and today is due to game strategy. With a three-point line, teams today value outside shooters and often design plays for a three-point shot. In the early decades of the league, the whole purpose of each possession was to get a shot as close to the basket as possible.

The main issue with this strategy is that centers like Russell and Chamberlain could roam the paint waiting for dozens of more shots to block and intimidate. Hence, the effect of a tall and athletic defensive center was greater over the course of a game.

Wilt Chamberlain was recorded blocking 28 shots in a single game. It is doubtful that Wilt, Russell, or any player could come anywhere close to matching similar totals today. Without considering the height disadvantage compared to Olajuwon and Mutombo, I’ll give Russell the benefit of the doubt by thinking he would have similar block totals today—about three bpg.

The other area Russell dominated defensively was on the glass with his rebounding. His 22.5 rpg average ranks second only to Wilt Chamberlain. Of the 24 forty rebound games in NBA history, Russell owns eight of them.

When the higher ball possession rate argument is factored in, one can clearly see how rebounding totals were inflated compared to today. More scoring possessions led to more rebound opportunities. In addition, teams shot below a 40 percent rate in the late 1950s and not much more efficient after that, also leading to more rebounds.


Over the past three decades, team rebounding averages have been in the low to mid 40s. By contrast, from 1956 until 1968, teams averaged between 58 and 66 rebounds per game. This alone would bring Russell’s rebound average today down by about a third, to around 15-16 rpg.

Looking at the style of game play with shorter shots being taken, most rebounds were also shorter (as long shots like three-point attempts create long rebounds). Being among the tallest and most athletic players during the era, players such as Chamberlain and Russell had an advantage in grabbing those plentiful short rebounds.

In fact, any player that had a tremendous athletic ability rebounded at an impressive clip. For example, Elgin Baylor grabbed 19.8 rpg in 1961, even though he was listed at 6-5. Even more current elite rebounders such as Charles Barkley (6-6) and Dennis Rodman (6-8) were unable to match this statistic.

Rodman, for instance, was perhaps the best ever at positioning himself for rebounds and boxing out opponents. Yet, due to other tall, athletic players and the style of the game (slower pace and longer rebounds), Rodman averaged over 18 rpg only twice. No other NBA player since has come close.

Russell was a smart, intense player. But all the films I have seen of him playing do not show him working as hard at positioning as Rodman did. In fact, Wilt Chamberlain set an NBA record by pulling down 55 boards while playing Russell and the Celtics.

Russell, in fact, never really “contained” Wilt defensively. In the 142 games they played against each other, Wilt still averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg. Even though by an 88-74 count Russell’s team won, much of that can be attributed to the superior talent and coaching of the Celtics.

When adjusting for pace of the game and other players’ ability, Russell’s rebounding rate today might be similar to the averages of other top players—around 12-13 per game.



Conclusion



Bill Russell was a great winner, although he might not have won quite as much today. A dominant rebounder and defender and a strong-willed leader, Russell’s legacy on the court is long-lasting.

Using the “greatest of all-time” standard that I proposed, Russell cannot be considered in the elite because although he won multiple times and excelled at defense, he was not dominant offensively. Furthermore, if his game was translated into today (10 ppg, 12-13 rpg, and 3 bpg—numbers similar to Dikembe Mutombo’s career), overall Bill Russell would not have the same effect on the league.

I applaud Russell for changing the way the game was played and overcoming much adversity throughout his career, including racism. However, in comparison to other NBA legends, I could not fairly crown him as the second best player behind Jordan and the best NBA center.
2697306, http://alanpaul.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bill_russell_lifetime_achievement_fb.jpg
Posted by pretentious username, Tue May-28-19 03:56 PM
http://alanpaul.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bill_russell_lifetime_achievement_fb.jpg
2697359, This looks like fun
Posted by Call It Anything, Wed May-29-19 01:23 PM
>Using the “greatest of all-time” standard that I proposed,
>Russell cannot be considered in the elite because although he
>won multiple times and excelled at defense, he was not
>dominant offensively. Furthermore, if his game was translated
>into today (10 ppg, 12-13 rpg, and 3 bpg—numbers similar to
>Dikembe Mutombo’s career), overall Bill Russell would not
>have the same effect on the league.

Furthermore, if Steph Curry's game were translated into the 70s, the lack of a 3-point line, prevalance of very physical defense, and regression in medical technology in dealing with his ankle issues would have gave him a Tiny Archibald-like career. Overall Steph Curry would not have the same effect on the League.
2697367, people always get their panties in a bun when I call out their sacred...
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed May-29-19 02:23 PM
cow but the numbers don't lie!

"But he's got 11 rings!"

Robert Horry has 7 and I don't think he's on anybody's GOAT list.

And I'm not saying Robert Horry is on the same level as Bill Russell but it just shows how funny and selective people are with the "rings" argument.

Kind of like Kobe could never be compared to Jordan unless he got 6. The all of a sudden Lebron was in the GOAT conversation with 3 lol.
2697361, Oh shit somebody take his keys
Posted by ConcreteCharlie, Wed May-29-19 01:50 PM
2697370, https://images.app.goo.gl/EzP3Dz5YwfA7TBie9
Posted by CyrenYoung, Wed May-29-19 03:12 PM
https://images.app.goo.gl/EzP3Dz5YwfA7TBie9

This nigga drunk, try’na fight er’ybody LOL!



*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2697371, RE: https://images.app.goo.gl/EzP3Dz5YwfA7TBie9
Posted by ThaTruth, Wed May-29-19 03:16 PM
>https://images.app.goo.gl/EzP3Dz5YwfA7TBie9
>
>This nigga drunk, try’na fight er’ybody LOL!

I'm having fun, everybody else is getting MAD wanting to fight me for telling TheTruth lol
2697372, congrats on your archive formula!
Posted by CyrenYoung, Wed May-29-19 03:19 PM

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...
2697410, Where is Vinnie Johnson?
Posted by The Real, Thu May-30-19 09:41 AM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2697421, don't sleep on The Microwave!
Posted by ThaTruth, Thu May-30-19 10:49 AM