Shit was kinda heartbreaking, in a way. So much fail by so many people. What'd you think, if you saw it?

..i'll prob'ly check that out sometime this week.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

if not im not really interested.

All those dudes are probably Trump supporters now

Do I care?

Not really

Dude was like "imagine what people without resources
have to go through"

They boys support the innocence project now, which
disproportionately helps poor people/people of color

But all of that is irrelevant, because it's not how life works:

They could be Trump Supporters. They are victims, they did not
rape that girl

And if you believe in criminal justice, you have to do it
for people who are innocent assholes as much as you do
innocent nice people

Because that's the only way this shit ever gonna work

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>
>Dude was like "image what people without resources
>have to go through"
>
>They boys support the innocence project now, which
>disproportionately
>helps poor people/people of color
>
>But all of that is irrelevant, because it's not how life
>works:
>
>They could be Trump Supporters. They are victims, they did
>not
>rape that girl
>
>And if you believe in criminal justice, you have to do it
>for people who are innocent assholes as much as you do
>innocent nice people
>
>Because that's the only way this shit ever gonna work
>
>----------------------------
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "

Amritsar response: I played teh ymca basketball. Flyover..suburbs...Cali roolz you drool!

Btw, Warriors game tonight...you (not) going again and sitting courtside with ayesha curry and riley? Or do you only (not) go to the "big games"

not worth the ticket price


yes, I'm the only person in the history of OKS to post from a game


got me, dipshit

or whatever else occupies your tiny mind.

ill entertain you again next month. i've fulfilled my march quota of back and forths with you.


edit, offer still on the table though. i fly in on 4/4

commenting on a doc you aint even seen


calling me tiny brained lol


bet you thought your reply was going to go over better with your e-black friends didnt ya?



wonder how long you'll be stopped by TSA on that 4/4 flight.. the usual couple hours?


"not me."

even my wife loved it and she's not much for sports except football.

what i found so amazing was, much to the contrary of guru's assumption, these guys because Innocence Project lawyers because they actually got to experience what disadvantaged people around the country deal with when they get sucked into the legal system.

i thought that was a real silver lining to a very horrible story. a lot of lives and careers were wrecked during the investigation, but hopefully these men can restore some other lives with their legal work.

even my wife loved it and she's not much for sports except football.

what i found so amazing was, much to the contrary of guru's assumption, these guys became Innocence Project lawyers because they actually got to experience what disadvantaged people around the country deal with when they get sucked into the legal system.

i thought that was a real silver lining to a very horrible story. a lot of lives and careers were wrecked during the investigation, but hopefully these men can restore some other lives with their legal work.

I thought they did a fairly good job in the first half of setting up the reasons why everyone believed it: these dudes were rich white entitled asshole jocks who famously acted poorly. I thought they could've leaned on this more heavily, but I was expecting it to not even be present, so good on them for dedicating a lot of time to helping us understand *why* everyone jumped to the conclusions they jumped to (it also helped that police and the DA were both saying they have concrete evidence, when, y'know, they didn't).

It was wild seeing a number of people I knew at those protests and what have you. I told friends at the time to stay away from the media, because I watched first-hand as they took a friend's fair-minded quote, "Having been to some of their parties, I can believe that they did it, but I don't want to jump to conclusions before hearing about the evidence," and the media played it on the news as "Having been to some of their parties, I can believe that they did it." I saw another guy, a friend of the lacrosse players, attempt to make a "due diligence" argument on camera, and the anchor more or less shouted him down for "defending their actions." The term "witch hunt" was definitely applicable.

Like everyone, I thought that they did it. I'd been to a couple of parties at the lacrosse house the year before-- it was off East Campus, where the freshmen live, and it was easier to walk to the lacrosse house than to go to West Campus where the frat parties were. They were pretty terrifying every time, and I never felt comfortable staying long. It was a bunch of jacked-up big dudes, all pushing and fighting each other, all groping women, all shouting at dudes they didn't want at their parties, etc. They were insanely packed, and everyone there was drunk or high beyond the point of coherence. The thought of freshmen girls going to those parties for the sake of geographical convenience absolutely horrifies me. So yeah, combine that with the police and the DA saying they had concrete evidence? No-brainer. Of course they did it.

Once the DNA results came back negative though, and once people started reporting that Crystal had changed many pertinent details of her story (though the doc seems to imply that Crystal didn't do that, that Sgt. Gottlieb simply took it upon himself to do this to make it fit the case, which is... insane), people around campus all started to feel pretty shitty. And when Nifong's actions had been exposed and the lacrosse players were declared innocent... no one even partied. We were just shocked that the corruption dug that deep, and that we'd all willingly participated in this court of public opinion conviction. To this day, I feel weird about how certain I was that they'd done it.

The doc did a pretty good job with everything. I'm glad they didn't throw Crystal under the bus, as she was pretty clearly a woman with mental health issues that then quickly became a pawn for Gottlieb and Nifong. I thought they could've dug deeper into Nifong and why a guy who was perceived as being a good and friendly lawyer would all of a sudden turn absolutely corrupt-- they imply at the end that he'd been crooked from the word go, but I'd have loved to learn more about that. They also take a stance on the basketball team-- "if this had happened to Duke basketball, they wouldn't have cancelled the season"-- that I vehemently disagree with. Anyone saying that doesn't know what it was like on campus during that time.

And I still think they could've painted a more morally complex picture of the lacrosse culture. Their coach didn't resign exclusively over this-- he resigned because there'd been something like fifteen arrests of lacrosse players for drunk and violent behavior during his tenure that had obviously gone unchecked. We don't need the "he was a sweet kid" stories from the parents. It would've been more interesting to me to see them reach the conclusion that most of us at the time reached: "yeah, they're racist misogynist assholes... but they're not *rapist* racist misogynist assholes."

I also wish they'd covered how Duke Lacrosse rebounded after that. They brought in a new coach, had a complete culture change (with *way* more oversight into parties and what have you), and have been on an absolute tear in the lacrosse world in a way I don't think anyone expected after the season was cancelled, the coach resigned, and some players transferred. It would've made a nice bookend considering the doc began with a set-up of how good Duke Lacrosse was.

I don't know. These thoughts are probably babbling and incoherent, and hopefully you're no longer reading them. Good doc overall-- better than I expected.

a few questions...
What were your thoughts on Pressler? They kind of gave him a heroic look in the doc.

Was Gottlieb kinda known for being a loose canon before? At one point they basically implied that he changed her description of the 3 guys' physical appearances to be exactly what they were, even though originally her descriptions were totally different.

>a few questions...
>What were your thoughts on Pressler? They kind of gave him a
>heroic look in the doc.

... and he was definitely one of the only dudes on campus insisting his boys were innocent. However, he *had* let their party lifestyle get out of control. They should've clarified that he wasn't getting shoved out because his players were guilty-- he was getting shoved out because his players had exercised bad judgment for a while, and now it was past the breaking point.

>Was Gottlieb kinda known for being a loose canon before? At
>one point they basically implied that he changed her
>description of the 3 guys' physical appearances to be exactly
>what they were, even though originally her descriptions were
>totally different.

Gottlieb was known on campus, and he was absolutely a famous dickhead. I always just thought he was a douche, I didn't know he was a negligent and deeply corrupt cop on top of it.

And they're as full of shit now as they were back then.

They continually push the narratives that they want to push to ensure bias instead of simply presenting information and letting people come to their own conclusions..

Thanks for giving your unique insights on the event.. good stuff..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

Feminists, class activists, race activists, Hoteps

They had their cause of causes

They wanted to send a message

Not different than when Peta made an example out of
Michael Vick

People are almost about their AGENDAS (and for REAL agendas)
than they are the truth

And that's why we ain't shit as a society



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

only time i even reacted to the story was when pressed assholes kept suggest that K should take a public stance against the behavior of the team because "he's the face of duke." maaaaan, i was pissed. hating bitches will do and say ANYTHING to drag duke basketball into some bullshit because the program is SPOTLESS.

some shit even happened recently where some duke official allegedly used the n-word during a confrontation of a parking spot. OF COURSE people made it about duke basketball, like why would black kids wanna go to such a racist place. mad gon mad.

SMH.

But they unfairly shoehorned the part about Duke hoops into this thing. It's an entirely hypothetical situation being proposed and is completely irrelevant to the story they're telling in this movie.

.

>
>only time i even reacted to the story was when pressed
>assholes kept suggest that K should take a public stance
>against the behavior of the team because "he's the face of
>duke." maaaaan, i was pissed. hating bitches will do and say
>ANYTHING to drag duke basketball into some bullshit because
>the program is SPOTLESS.
>
>some shit even happened recently where some duke official
>allegedly used the n-word during a confrontation of a parking
>spot. OF COURSE people made it about duke basketball, like why
>would black kids wanna go to such a racist place. mad gon mad.
>
>
>SMH.

right..because there's nothing that has actually ever happened in Durham North Carolina that would give any reasonable Black person pause about attending Duke University....


smh...

why would anyone wanna go to UCLA or USC with that type of climate here? need i even mention LAPD?

stop being petty, dogg.

the racial problems in Durham, NC and at Duke historically...don't try and put California in the same boat...

I'm sitting in a 3 story house right now that I own in Southern California....I'll stay in Cali thanks..fuk a lapd and a cracker writing on a wall...... We's free Negroes out chere champ.....lol

racism don't know borders. that's why niggas look shocked when shit hapens in non southern states.

but you...you'll ignore the racial history of Duke and Durham, NC to give a pass to a basketball program....

you pretend like the shit never happened....because you like a basketball team...

nigga please...

I'll cop to all LA's good and bad....

because Black people are out here making money...making power moves... Black Mayors bringing the NFL back to LA....

power moves....

our sports out here made history...changed the world....bigger than the field of play...

duke plays basketball...

who gives a fukk....lolol...

you'll speak on average cornball cat who went to duke and comes to the NBA and doesn't do shit.... But Durham and Duke ain't never had no racial problems or issues in their history.....

I got you....


fool you probably out here handling some business....because Black people would have some business to handle in LA.....

what you gonna do in Durham, NC beside go see a damn basketball game Black man???? lolol...

the fukk outta here...

>but you...you'll ignore the racial history of Duke and
>Durham, NC to give a pass to a basketball program....
>
>you pretend like the shit never happened....because you like a
>basketball team...
>
>nigga please...
>
>I'll cop to all LA's good and bad....
>
>because Black people are out here making money...making power
>moves... Black Mayors bringing the NFL back to LA....
>
>power moves....
>
>our sports out here made history...changed the world....bigger
>than the field of play...
>
>duke plays basketball...
>
>who gives a fukk....lolol...
>
>you'll speak on average cornball cat who went to duke and
>comes to the NBA and doesn't do shit.... But Durham and Duke
>ain't never had no racial problems or issues in their
>history.....
>
>I got you....
>
>
>fool you probably out here handling some business....because
>Black people would have some business to handle in LA.....
>
>what you gonna do in Durham, NC beside go see a damn
>basketball game Black man???? lolol...
>
>the fukk outta here...

YOU won't say shit about race in Durham or at Duke because YOU are a fan of Duke basketball....

I see you..

and my personal experiences at duke and in durham were FINE.

I don't care what they said racist. That's not a crime.
Don't care if they were misogynist. That ain't a crime.

They were charged with rape.

They didn't rape.

If we have any integrity, we are as upset by this as anything
else, because that's what criminal justice is about. If it's
broke, it's broke.

You do this sliding scale shit, and then it's white people
talking about "Eric Garner broke the law."

Either someone deserved what happened to them, or they didn't.

Them boys were wronged.


PERIOD.

Don't care about anything else.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Duke's relationship with Durham was and still is awful. Duke students act more entitled towards their surrounding community than any other school with which I have strong familiarity, and that includes Princeton and Harvard. The lacrosse case was an event that allowed Durham residents to voice a lot of completely valid criticisms of Duke. The case falling apart became an unstoppable way to negate those claims.

Doesn't change the fact that the kids were innocent of the charges, but there is a very legitimate reason for a full documentary treatment,

>Duke's relationship with Durham was and still is awful. Duke
>students act more entitled towards their surrounding community
>than any other school with which I have strong familiarity,
>and that includes Princeton and Harvard. The lacrosse case was
>an event that allowed Durham residents to voice a lot of
>completely valid criticisms of Duke. The case falling apart
>became an unstoppable way to negate those claims.
>
>Doesn't change the fact that the kids were innocent of the
>charges, but there is a very legitimate reason for a full
>documentary treatment,

You want to have a debate, have one.

You wanna prop up some fake shit to have a "legitimate
conversation," leave me out.

Them boys innocent.

I'm not in the ruining people's lives to make a point
business.

It happens to BLACK people all the time

Ironically, the Duke player said the right thing:

"Imagine what people without resources have to put
up with" (or something like that)

Usually it's poor people made an example out of




----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

muhfuckas'll quote MLK all day ("injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere") and still completely miss the point.

It was just OK to me. But I will say I like that the 30 for 30 series continually gives opportunities for women filmmakers.

for anyone who really didn't know the details about what happened, it's pretty crazy to see the lengths that this DA went to in making a case, where there really was no case..

Nifong should have gone to jail for more than 1 day for what he did to these guys and their families in the name of getting re-elected..

the only thing I think they should have dealt with a bit more was the fact that the "perception" about the Lacrosse team specifically with the alcohol fueled parties....and some players getting in legal trouble before this situation wasn't really dealt with beyond just a passing mention. The problem with that is that it makes it seem like this perception was based strictly off of rumor, and not actually incidents..... the perceptions that some had about the Lacrosse team..and the relationship between the school and the community has some factual incidents one could point at to give that some perspective...leaving that out was a bit unfair... I mean the neighbor said he heard racial slurs being thrown at the dancer, but you didn't see anything else mentioned ....

but yeah..those guys were done super dirty by the DA...

>the only thing I think they should have dealt with a bit more
>was the fact that the "perception" about the Lacrosse team
>specifically with the alcohol fueled parties....and some
>players getting in legal trouble before this situation wasn't
>really dealt with beyond just a passing mention. The problem
>with that is that it makes it seem like this perception was
>based strictly off of rumor, and not actually incidents.....
>the perceptions that some had about the Lacrosse team..and the
>relationship between the school and the community has some
>factual incidents one could point at to give that some
>perspective...leaving that out was a bit unfair... I mean the
>neighbor said he heard racial slurs being thrown at the
>dancer, but you didn't see anything else mentioned ....

Either they raped or they didn't.

That's why lying is bad:

Once you lie, everything attached to the lie is bullshit.

I don't care about "important conversations." And "issues
of social relevance that are connected" or "what the boys
said to the woman."

It's a rape case.

Those boys were dragged through the court for one of the most
heinous crimes on earth, and they didn't do it.

End of story.

>
>>the only thing I think they should have dealt with a bit
>more
>>was the fact that the "perception" about the Lacrosse team
>>specifically with the alcohol fueled parties....and some
>>players getting in legal trouble before this situation
>wasn't
>>really dealt with beyond just a passing mention. The
>problem
>>with that is that it makes it seem like this perception was
>>based strictly off of rumor, and not actually incidents.....
>>the perceptions that some had about the Lacrosse team..and
>the
>>relationship between the school and the community has some
>>factual incidents one could point at to give that some
>>perspective...leaving that out was a bit unfair... I mean
>the
>>neighbor said he heard racial slurs being thrown at the
>>dancer, but you didn't see anything else mentioned ....
>
>Either they raped or they didn't.


yes either they raped or they didn't. But this issues obviously conjured up emotions within that community that were rooted in particular perceptions. Perceptions that came from actual events happening related to that program. The documentary referenced "arrests" related to alcohol and other actions that involved law enforcement. Those are the type of things that lead to perceptions about a group ...so when the rape accusation happen.... they are happening in a climate where there are perceptions about that program based upon actual events happening. Instead of just saying there were arrests...say how many....say when....say what type of legal issues were related to that perception. Speak specifically the things that have happened in Durham that have caused tensions..

none of that has anything to do with the Rape allegation specifically, but it has everything to do with why many in the community and the school reacted to the accusations the way they did.

but not dealing with that, you give the perception that these innocent players were viewed as guilty simply because they were why Duke student athletes, and that is simply not an accurate account. People didn't pull the perception about that program out of thin air....



>
>That's why lying is bad:
>
>Once you lie, everything attached to the lie is bullshit.
>
>I don't care about "important conversations." And "issues
>of social relevance that are connected" or "what the boys
>said to the woman."
>
>It's a rape case.


just because you don't want to deal with the societal issues involved with this case, doesn't mean that they don't exist.



>
>Those boys were dragged through the court for one of the most
>heinous crimes on earth, and they didn't do it.
>
>End of story.


what happened to them was messed up, but the reaction to the accusations wasn't pulled out of thin air.

if you don't have drunk parties where you google hoes to come to your frat house..you stand less of a chance of some crazy broad accusing you of some shit you didn't do..... When you conduct yourself like entitled assholes on a campus, and have run ins with the law...people are more likely to believe false accusations about you.

Black people have to deal with the consequence of false accusations and misplaced perceptions all the time....and DA's don't go to jail for using that against them. In this case, one did....but that doesn't mean that the climate that made it easy to believe these false accusations didn't come from things that actually happened.

>if you don't have drunk parties where you google hoes to come
>to your frat house..you stand less of a chance of some crazy
>broad accusing you of some shit you didn't do..... When you
>conduct yourself like entitled assholes on a campus, and have
>run ins with the law...people are more likely to believe false
>accusations about you.

The irony of this logic


>Black people have to deal with the consequence of false
>accusations and misplaced perceptions all the time....and DA's
>don't go to jail for using that against them. In this case,
>one did....but that doesn't mean that the climate that made it
>easy to believe these false accusations didn't come from
>things that actually happened.

Same thing with black men-

Many black men act ignorant.

That doesn't mean it's okay for them to go to jail
for crimes they didn't commit

Because that's not how the law works

You're either guilty of the CRIME or you're NOT.

You don't have to be a perfect citizen to be not guilty.

You simply need to be not guilty.

These boys wasn't guilty.





----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>
>>if you don't have drunk parties where you google hoes to
>come
>>to your frat house..you stand less of a chance of some crazy
>>broad accusing you of some shit you didn't do..... When you
>>conduct yourself like entitled assholes on a campus, and
>have
>>run ins with the law...people are more likely to believe
>false
>>accusations about you.
>
>The irony of this logic
>

But how does an otherwise smart dude type some
shit like that out? Did dude sense the irony, at ALL?


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

reasons why it was so easy for so many in Durham and at Duke to believe these false accusations, doesn't mean that those of us who do find that aspect of this story interesting and worth analysis are doing anything wrong or out of sorts..

you've simply chose to ignore it...and that's your prerogative...but your choice to do so doesn't mean that a realistic and fact base analysis as to WHY so many people were so sure that this was true is out of bounds in any way...

>you've simply chose to ignore it...and that's your
>prerogative...but your choice to do so doesn't mean that a
>realistic and fact base analysis as to WHY so many people were
>so sure that this was true is out of bounds in any way...

When an unarmed black kid with a criminal past is killed
by police for no reason at all, and the white media talks
about what he did in the PAST as if to justify it, you can't
say shit

Because the white media be like "Well, his past doesn't
give him the benefit of the doubt" EVEN THOUGH there is
zero evidence of wrongdoing

Happens to black kids all the time. ALL the time.




----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

this comes down to you not wanting to look at the reasons why this community assumed false allegations were true.....

and you're making outrageous comparisons to turn that into some sort of absolute...

and it's not...

this documentary looked at some of that....it kind of glossed over it..but dealing with on some level honestly shouldn't bring you to say anything beyond you just don't want to look at that aspect...


there was a climate in Durham and at Duke that made it easier for people to believe these false allegations....and Nifong capitalized on that....

...but even Duke deserves fairness in the legal arena.
only reason why the story gained as much traction was because it really was believable (see bshelly's reply for the reasons why).

sad that it ended up being some bullshit for a number of reasons.

I also don't agree that Krzyzewski needed to say anything either, "face of Duke" or not. if some shit like that was going down in the Duke Basketball program, then yeah. best that those NOT involved with the case stay far away from it