If anything, these finals should go in the plus column

that Kobe was held to.

Niggas hate cause he left Cleveland to win rings. Why shouldn't he have? He gonna stay with a franchise with no history of winning that ISN'T showing interest in taking in help to get him to titles? When EVERYBODY comparing him to Jordan? MEANWHILE loyal ass Kevin Garnett bounces after much disappointment in Minnesota and wins a ring with the Big Three?! With a WINNING franchise that cares about rings, and isn't just happy with filling the seats and jersey sales?

Every other person lauded for multiple rings - Kobe, Jordan, Duncan - stayed because help came to THEM. Meanwhile Lebron gets Anthony Parker??? FOH. Meanwhile this dude is going to Finals year in and year out, and has gotten to the point where if he's on the team your squad is in the ship. People keep wanting to hold Lebron to a "standard" but nothing is standard about his situation. At this point hating on Bron is like hating on a 17 year old that just graduated college, but only had a 3.5 gpa instead of a 4.0 and wasn't valedictorian.

The reaction to LeBron is a reaction to his marketing. From day 1. It was like Kobe's on steroids. And the more LeBron's hype seemed to be justified, the more intense it got. Not even Kobe, at his most marketed, and at his corniest, could compare.

LeBron himself essentially started to feed into it. The dancing on the sidelines, the Peyton Manning moments in the playoffs, and the ultimate Favre Milestone of his career: The Decision.

It's not that he left to go to Miami that he earned such wide-spread hate. The world, at large, really doesn't give a fuck about Cleveland THAT much (one reason, I made it my home in 2003). They might now, that he's here again, but nah.

LeBron's not the first free agent to choose his own destiny in pro-sports. You don't have to look any further than to SHAQ, whose first years in the NBA and exit from the team that drafted him are not all that different from Shaq.

(really, we don't talk enough about Shaq. He might have been the first star-post Jordan to really get the marketing blitz. He had rap albums, some legit tracks, video games, movies... Shaq was EVERYWHERE. And he dominated the NBA in a way we still haven't seen since.)

The only difference, LeBron, being the first star of the instant-gratification/social media era... had to go overboard with it. Turning a routine free agency signing into a public "Favre Moment" basically turned what should have been a Cleveland-only sodium infusion into a league-wide hate fest. Only went further when them dudes tried to be the nWo and shit, with the "Not 3, not 4, not 5..."


LeBron was at that point, and in many ways still is, the Peyton Manning of the NBA. He will sit in the record books for a LONG time, and has at least championship wins to at least escape the fry pan, but some of his playoff losses (2011, 2010 (NOPE), 2009) get way too many passes, and really, his Finals record does matter, even if you have to asterisk 2 of them.

And please note, I don't blame him for this Finals loss. Or even the last one with Miami, even though I found it funny as fuck if only for the LeBronies copping pleas. I don't even blame him for leaving Cleveland.

I do have a few minor personality-related issues with the dude ("Favre Mode", "Chill Mode", his occasional sips of Vicks 44 during high-pressure moments), but we gotta be real about why he gets SOME of this blowback, especially from Kobe fans who have to hear about how he's a volume-shooting cancer and a "cloak of darkness" upon the Lakers and their ability to move into the future.

"6-24" was a thing here.

LeBron had a few of those games these playoffs (perhaps due to necessity), most notably in the Bulls series where he hit the winning shot to take the Bulls out of a potential 3-1 situation.

Not a peep out of the usual suspects.

The whole "Chill Mode" moment. If that were Kobe? OKS would crash the servers.

Not a peep out of the usual suspects.

LeBron does a lot of the same bad shit that Kobe does, he just does it in such a lowkey manner, and he can hide behind being the best player on the planet often. He's still doing it.

Kobe fans are just asking you to keep up the same 'tensity when Bron does the shit.

In retrospect, I'm glad LeBron went to Miami and took those carpetbaggin' ass LeBronies with him. Having the opportunity to play with a good team (and a proven winner in Dwyane Wade) allowed him to keep away from the Vicks 44 and be himself. To learn a life outside of the ISO. Even if he won no titles, it was a good thing.

Fuck the Heat though, for life.

brought up Shaq, cause I was thinking about this the other day.

if I were to rewind 5 years ago I remember the consensus being Jordan is the GOAT cause rings, BUT Shaq is the greatest player/most dominant, with Wilt following closely behind.

What is interesting is how the more Lebron keep succeeding (though losing in the Finals) the more people have steered away for being so heavy with the Shaq-olades because now it doesn't fit the anti-Lebron angle.

Kobe and Bron do share some annoying traits. To ME tho, the difference Kobe got born on third base landing with the Lakers, then got Shaq brought to him. They dominated, and yet then in an attempt to prove he could do it by himself, he ousted Shaq. To me that was unforgiveable. That is putting yourself over the team, but that's whateves. Making Shaq leave > Leaving Cleveland, to me.

Also, Lebron keeps getting Jordan comparisons, but honestly (and has been stated since Lebron got in the league) he's not Jordan. If anything he's Magic. Except he's Magic without the showtime supporting cast (for most of his career). Meanwhile he *could* catch Magic's 5 and have appeared in 9 Finals in the process. Aint NO shame in that.

I will say that Lebron has mastered his marketing, and money, and he will be one of the highest paid entities of all time. But I kind of wish he would go back to that early Lebron with the marketing and promotion. It's like once people said stop with the puppets and get with the rings, he's been trying to portray this all business mentality, and lost a part of his likability in the process.

However, ironically, only with 2 rings to his name, he may have been better served to have waited in Cleveland and seen what team was built around him there. But you're only going to get so much help when you're picking in the high 20s every year.

>However, ironically, only with 2 rings to his name, he may
>have been better served to have waited in Cleveland and seen
>what team was built around him there. But you're only going to
>get so much help when you're picking in the high 20s every
>year.

Make no mistake: The Gund/Pax combo in the front office in LeBron's earliest years (the most critical ones) was AWFUL. Awful trades, awful drafts.

The only crime I could say of Gilbert/Ferry was to acquiesce too much to LeBron's supposed demands at the time instead of using basketball knowledge to get the best players available to him. Mo Williams was probably the best one they had, and as has been seen with #2KnicksUnited you still can't really lean on a player in that tier to be your next best player. Even if you are LeBron James.

But they never had the chance to get quality players in the draft, even before they became a playoff team, maybe because LeBron played too well. Luke fuckin' Jackson, dogg? I know they picked Iggy right before him, but damn.

The Cavs other pick in that draft, Carlito Caribbean Cool aka Anderson Varejao was way better than him. Hell, that draft, awful as it was, also had other people who have played for the Cavs (J.R. Smith, Delonte West, Sasha Vujay-jay, LOL...) Trevor Ariza, even was better. He's still in the league! LOL, 2 of the higher picks in the draft were on that GS team that just won the title.

If the Cavs had the kind of lottery "luck" they had post-LeBron, they could have had Dunce12 or Luol Deng or someone else -good- with him. That's why I don't believe the whole "lottery is rigged" BS. If it were truly rigged, LeBron could have had "help" early in his career. Or Kyrie could have actually had "help". "Winning" the Lottery the Anthony Bennett year was the opposite of luck. Anything to have gotten the Cavs out of the top 3, even past an Alex Len pick would have been more desirable.

All we want is the same standard..

BTW, be patient.. your ring is coming in the next year or two barring injury. LeBron will end the drought.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

>BTW, be patient.. your ring is coming in the next year or two
>barring injury. LeBron will end the drought.

this is not anywhere near the 2007 loss (honestly, Cavs had no business being there), or the playoff losses the next 2-3 seasons.

the pressure is on, but the Cavs lost to an all-time great team, minus 2 of their impact players. that they avoided a sweep is an achievement. I was more worried they'd lose before the Finals.

instead, I found out that Tristan Thompson is actually a quality big in the NBA. So all that BULLSHIT about Jonas ValuTime or whoever else can finally die.

LeBron will have "help" and all the Cavs need to do is make patient, measured moves to retool.

There are currently three dudes in the GOAT convo, Jordan, Wilt and Cap, and none of them balled out like this with a bunch of stiffs. None.

NEVER!

there's no coming back from 6 for 6

it was fun to debate this year

but that's what this finals was for Bron

that was THE accomplishment

it would've given him separation from Kobe and MJ

i.e., he did it by himself against the best team in the league

an L

ehh, you can spin it how you want

a few years out

and it just looks like an L

had and not just this year

The 2007 team was highly inferior and not a real NBA championship caliber team

In many ways he carried that Heat team as much as ppl wanna talk abt "the big 3"

Jordan's teams were pretty much always at full strength

Pippen was injured vs UTah in 98 but he only really missed a half in gm 6

This is why I say judge players based on their individual skill set as opposed to what their teams did or didn't accomplish as a basis to say who is a better player

>NEVER!
>
>there's no coming back from 6 for 6
>
>it was fun to debate this year
>
>but that's what this finals was for Bron
>
>that was THE accomplishment
>
>it would've given him separation from Kobe and MJ
>
>i.e., he did it by himself against the best team in the
>league
>
>an L
>
>ehh, you can spin it how you want
>
>a few years out
>
>and it just looks like an L

if he loses in the 2nd round this year he's still in the convo because he only has 3 finals losses?

They were supposed to run thru the East. Anything less than that and its a disappointment.

This loss doesn't take away from his greatness. But the same thing happens in football with QB's, what your record is in the Finals is what separates the All-Time Greats, from just the greats. As is career stands right now, you can't say he's in the same space as Jordan, Russell, Cap, Kobe, Duncan, Magic etc. He's in there with Wilt and Jerry West. Still great players. But not at the top yet.

That can change. He's not done playing. Just hasn't done enough accomplishments wise to be there. Talent wise, he's there though.


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http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-to-lead-nba-finals-in-points-rebounds-and-assists/

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/image23.png

Sorry, Lebron is there and one title in Cleveland makes him the best ever. What more can Lebron do to win this team a title? HE LEAD THE NBA FINALS IN POINTS, REBOUNDS, AND ASSISTS.

But, but, but, his efficiency was poor! WHO IN THE FUCK ELSE WAS SUPPOSED TO GENERATE OFFENSE BY THEMSELVES? This finals performance adds to his greatness and will to win. He willed the Cavs to two victories against an all-time team despite injuries to three all-stars.

You can't name another player in NBA history who wins this series under the same circumstances with the same team.

resume

ya'll can't see it the day after the finals

cool

like I said

the further out we get from 2015

the more it just looks like an L

'Bron beat an injured CHI team and an injured ATL team to make it to the finals and lose to GS = GOAT' (c) no one EVAH

only a W would've done that

I'm not saying anything more than that

this series would have been his crowning achievement.

with this L, he is relegated to #2 at best.

West, Baylor, Erving, these guys have losing records in the finals even.

Wilt is the GOAT because of all the Ls he has in the finals (c) no one EVAH!

c'mon

maybe they spin it to...so and so made X # of finals

but of those people you listed

who ARE IN THE GOAT conversation

when has a finals L been an achievement?

Honest question.

What I was pointing out was that all but ONE player in the GOAT conversation has lost in the Finals and multiple times. Jabbar (four losses), Magic (four losses), Jerry West (10 losses), Julius Erving (three losses), Shaq (two losses), Hakeem (a loss), Wilt (a loss and many in the ECF), Baylor (I wanna say eight losses), Bird, Moses, et fucking alli.

And yet these do not PREVENT them from being in the discussion.

Further, YES, some of them absolutely have losses that to their credit. Jordan, who never lost in the Finals, is often lauded for what he did earlier in his career against superior teams in the playoffs (e.g. Boston) or what he did to lesser opponents early on (Cleveland).

Elgin Baylor never won a championship and lost a ton of Finals, yet he is credited for what he did in his career and yes, for dominating the West.

Jerry West is in the same boat and furthermore absolutely gets credited for his incredible performance in the 1969 Finals, which his team lost in seven games to Boston.

like how many players can claim 6 finals appearances as alphadog, (potentially 10+) by the time he retires.

Sure his track record there isnt great, buts letts not act like its some easy feat

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He's great. As talented as anyone who has ever done it. He's not as accomplished as some of those other guys though. So you can't say he's the best ever. Maybe most talented ever...but not best ever.


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you look at other guys with that many trips we are talking tons of celtics and lakers from the best periods in those franchises' history, plus jordan and the very short list of guys with 6+ finals appearances even.

is he the best ever? no. could he be? he has as good of a chance as anyone to enter the league since jordan, but no, he is definitely not yet.

any time you start an argument "well, he's not the greatest ever ..." it's probably not a worthwhile argument.

you can't say that like its a given.

Its certainly possible.

But you can't use it in an argument like its safe to assume lol

All the dudes we talking about led teams and put up crazy stats. Rings is the difference. Horry wasn't even an All-Star


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and an attempt to reduce the game to an individual sport...

There are a lot of factors that have to be considered for a player on a team that wins *multiple* championships

Magic was truly a transcendsnt great player because he just was...the titles adds to his overall greatness but hell, he had arguably the greatest center of all time and a top 10 or 12 SF in Worthy (Silk Wilkes before him) and one of the all-time greatest perimeter defenders on his team in Cooper...not to mention viable role players like Norm Nixon, Byron Scott, AC and others

w/a team w/that much talent you're certain to win a few rings

Can we judge or punish Lebron because he has never played w/an all-time great player at the peak of their prime? It always seems like in the end he's going at it alone in the finals

>All the dudes we talking about led teams and put up crazy
>stats. Rings is the difference. Horry wasn't even an
>All-Star
>
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

I can't call you the best when people have accomplished more than you even though you are more talented.

His career is not over, but right now he is not the best.

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Lebron is the most talented Basketball player ever. But, to this point in his career, he hasn't accomplished what guys like Magic, Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant have. All those guys have guady stats, MVP's, All-NBA Selections, All Star Game Selections and led their team to at least 5 rings. Lebron has done the other stuff, but only has 2 rings right now.

2 and 4 in the Finals doesn't take away from him being great though. We just can't call him an All-Time Great like those others. Lebron is an all-time talent, but not yet an All-Time Great. Wilt Chamberlain was 2-4 in the Finals and Jerry West was like 1-8. Dr J was 1-3 Those guys are still greats, but no one argues that they are the best ever because they aren't as accomplished as the guys I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Right today, Lebron is with those other guys (West, Dr J and Wilt). His career isn't over yet though. I believe he will win one for all my folks back home in Ohio soon and possibly 2 or 3 more. Again, he's the most talented player I've ever seen. He's just not the best at this point.

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Wade is among the best ever at his position.

That's not taking away from LeBron.... That's just a fact.

on the court, I hate that dude.
fuck the Heat, and compared to Kobe, I am definitely not a fan of his cheating ass.

but he's a great player, one of the best of his draft class and of the decade following his entry into the NBA.

just because he gambled on his knee health and he isn't what he once was doesn't make him some kind of NBA lifetime bum

also, it's because of Wade(, Bosh, and Ray Allen ... all all-time greats) that LeBron even HAS rings to speak of

even if in the end, he was the dominant force on the Heat, he would not have won shit w/o those dudes. the idea that he never got to the finals/won the finals without other great players is some bullshit

any team he's on that's full strength *has* to win.

has.

no wiggle room. this was a fantastic accomplishment, and the closest thing to a pass he's ever gonna get from here out.

if they come back with bron, kyrie, love, thompson, andy, mozgov and the jackson 5 rounding out their roster, they should win.

.

chances going forward if they went this far w/a damn near D-League team

I think if they stay healthy they can run off at least 2-3

I just don't want ppl trying to discredit Bron when Kyrie gets finals MVP next season

There shouldn't be any shame in getting there and losing. Magic was 5-4. Kareem was 6-4. Dr J was 1-3. I can't say I elevate losses in earlier rounds above reaching the goddamn FINALS.

In this series Bron did the Atlas thing for a while but no one could have kept it up and even at his best they weren't winning every game. They were shorthanded and got beat by a better team, he played well. I would say this is somewhat similar to 07, although because of age and other factors I still consider that run a little more impressive

nothing he did hurt his legacy.

barring something really major, next year there is only one goal for him. he will play in multiple finals in the rest of his career but he can't lose em forever. to this point there is only one loss that i think should be held against him (and even there, give Dallas some credit). But he can't just cruise past a weak East and call it a day anymore.

It won't take away from his greatness or take him out of the top 5 or 6. Sure it might make him more in the wilt area of best players ever, but shit ppl act like that's bad company to be in

.

this isn't derisive (I prefer Peyton to The Cheater).
GOAT credentials except in championship games.

the Cavs will have their 2006 Colts moment.

Peyton is going into the HOF with a ton of records and a ring. So they can't say he never won shit. He just elevates the fuck outta whatever team he's on.

i think their unreal leadership qualities almost prevent them from having that kobe / brady-like megalomania that comes in handy when its time to cut the heart of the opponent.

.

Are Kobestanis and ones who worship the Gouda God, and according to them Bron was never in the conversation to beign with.

Yet he hasn't accomplished what the other guys have. That's the difference.

Wilt Chamberlain did the same thing. Crazy Stats. Physically superior. Not as accomplished.


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>Yet he hasn't accomplished what the other guys have. That's
>the difference.
>
>Wilt Chamberlain did the same thing. Crazy Stats. Physically
>superior. Not as accomplished.
>
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong with that assessment IMO.

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him than anyone else has had


>yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong
>with that assessment IMO.


But to say just because he has more talent that he's supposed to win titles isn't respecting the fact that this is still a team game

Jordan was by far and away the most talented player in the league and it took him 7 yrs to get over the proverbial hump...because he didn't have a team around him...and once Pippen came into his PRIME is when the Bulls took off

>him than anyone else has had
>
>
>>yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong
>>with that assessment IMO.
>
>
>But to say just because he has more talent that he's supposed
>to win titles isn't respecting the fact that this is still a
>team game
>
>Jordan was by far and away the most talented player in the
>league and it took him 7 yrs to get over the proverbial
>hump...because he didn't a team around him...and once Pippen
>came into his PRIME is when the Bulls took off

The minute comparisons to Jordan, Magic, and other all time greats are made, it's not intellectually honest to ignore championships when they are brought into the discussion. Doesn't make sense to anoint LeBron as an all time great when the standards aren't fully held to their highest level, which should involve championships since that is the ultimate goal for great players.

In my opinion, all the GOAT and Rushmore talks should start once LeBron's career is over so everything can be viewed in totality rather than the what have you done for me lately view LeBron is getting at the moment. But that's coming from someone that isn't fully invested in this agenda message board talk.

>The minute comparisons to Jordan, Magic, and other all time
>greats are made, it's not intellectually honest to ignore
>championships when they are brought into the discussion.
>Doesn't make sense to anoint LeBron as an all time great when
>the standards aren't fully held to their highest level, which
>should involve championships since that is the ultimate goal
>for great players.

It's not that I'm ignoring championships but I don't think most NBA fans that grew up watching basketball especially during the Jordan era realize just how new this rings argument is as to who's the greatest player of all-time is according to how many championships his team won...because that hasn't always been the case

There are PLENTY of ppl who believe Big O is the GOAT despite him only having only 1 championship on a team where he wasn't the best player (Dr.J said he would start him and Jerry West in his backcourt)

People were calling Kareem the GOAT during the 70s which was long before he had 6 rings because no player had his combimantion of skills and talent and he was dominating the league like no one had seen since Wilt's playing days...

Wilt? Some still think he's the GOAT w/just 2 rings

On the flip side, the man who has *11* f'ing rings is seldom in the discussion of the GOAT ('he's the greatest winner")


>In my opinion, all the GOAT and Rushmore talks should start
>once LeBron's career is over so everything can be viewed in
>totality rather than the what have you done for me lately view
>LeBron is getting at the moment. But that's coming from
>someone that isn't fully invested in this agenda message board
>talk.

That's part of why he is the GOAT. He was so good AND accomplished that he made you re-think how you evaluated greatness.

Look, College football used to let the coaches and media vote on who the National Champ was. Then we had the BCS. Now we have a tournament. Things evolve.

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>That's part of why he is the GOAT. He was so good AND
>accomplished that he made you re-think how you evaluated
>greatness.
>
>Look, College football used to let the coaches and media vote
>on who the National Champ was. Then we had the BCS. Now we
>have a tournament. Things evolve.
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

Rings alone isn't a fair way to have the discussion. But when you use it in the context of separating guys who are the top 20 or so guys ever, it makes a lot of sense as winning is the whole point of the game.

I'd love to read or hear Jordan' perspective on that, especially if he think's rings aren't a good way to evaluate. Please link it up if you can find it.

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the fact Russell almost doubles him in rings?

Better yet, you think if Jordan had to choose between Russell and Hakeem he would take Russell over Hakeem who only has 2 rings? (Rhetorical question)...because Jordan said he would take Hakeem over ANY center that ever played because he's basing his decision on skills and ability and not on overall career, team accomplishments





>Rings alone isn't a fair way to have the discussion. But when
>you use it in the context of separating guys who are the top
>20 or so guys ever, it makes a lot of sense as winning is the
>whole point of the game.
>
>I'd love to read or hear Jordan' perspective on that,
>especially if he think's rings aren't a good way to evaluate.
>Please link it up if you can find it.
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy I never saw play?

He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So did he really see him in his prime either, especially given how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.

Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator? This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.

I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he has more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era. He routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best in that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha Dog on his team.

Can't quite say that for Lebron. He has the stats. His leadership is vastly improved. But he hasn't consistently beat the best of the best on the biggest stage. That could change. He's not done. But right now, he hasn't done it.


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>So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy I
>never saw play?

You think MJ doesn't know of Russell's greatness? Better yet, how abt Kareem or Shaq or Moses? He definitely saw and played against the latter two...and he said he'd take Hakeem over any center that ever played because of his unique skill set

>
>He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So
>did he really see him in his prime either, especially given
>how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.

Dude, Jordan older than me and I'm well aware of Kareem's greatness - I'm sure Jordan is very well versed in the history and legends of the game. C'mon...I seriously doubt that's why he said he'd take Hakeem over any other center
>
>Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator?
>This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.

He has his opinion like anyone else


>I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he has
>more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his
>stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era. He
>routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best in
>that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha
>Dog on his team.

WTF? Lebron's stats are already better than 90% of the all-time greats - he has more MVPs than Magic/Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and has been on the 1st team All-defense several times...won 2 gold medals...2x champ...2x finals MVP...on pace to finish in the top 3 scorers and assists of all time (no one has ever done that)...all-time leader in assists for SFs...he resume is stellar...

He's lost 2x to an all-time great team and arguably the GOAT PF and a top 3 HC in Popovich...he lost this year w/an undermanned team to the best team in the league that featured the MVP...he also beat Duncan and he beat the 2nd best player in the league in the finals in a rare head-to-head battle 4-1...

He's the 1st player that I have seen that has had to go at it alone in the finals more than once...
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

and I'm not even a Bron FAN, much less Stan

>>So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy
>I
>>never saw play?
>
>You think MJ doesn't know of Russell's greatness? Better yet,
>how abt Kareem or Shaq or Moses? He definitely saw and played
>against the latter two...and he said he'd take Hakeem over any
>center that ever played because of his unique skill set
>

But he still didn't see him play. You and I are also aware of his greatness, but neither of us saw him play. Therefore how could I say I take him. Same with Wilt. Again...Mike was in his 20's in the 80's. Cap was past his prime at that point. Hakeem, Moses and Shaq are always bunched together. So yeah that's his opinion.

>>
>>He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So
>>did he really see him in his prime either, especially given
>>how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.
>
>Dude, Jordan older than me and I'm well aware of Kareem's
>greatness - I'm sure Jordan is very well versed in the history
>and legends of the game. C'mon...I seriously doubt that's why
>he said he'd take Hakeem over any other center
>>

Being aware of someone's greatness is different than seeing them play and being able to say that person is definitively better than someone else. I never saw Big O play, so while I am aware of his greatness, I can't make a legit argument that he is better than Jordan, Kobe or Magic because it would just be based on stats and not his actual talent.


>>Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator?
>>This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.
>
>He has his opinion like anyone else
>
>
>>I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he
>has
>>more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his
>>stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era.
>He
>>routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best
>in
>>that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha
>>Dog on his team.
>
>WTF? Lebron's stats are already better than 90% of the
>all-time greats - he has more MVPs than
>Magic/Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and has been on the 1st team
>All-defense several times...won 2 gold medals...2x champ...2x
>finals MVP...on pace to finish in the top 3 scorers and
>assists of all time (no one has ever done that)...all-time
>leader in assists for SFs...he resume is stellar...

We can split hairs with this. Jordan has more MVPs. Kobe has more All-Defenses. Magic has more Assists. Shaq has more points. Duncan has more rebounds. But all of them have more rings than him. When Lebron is done, that may be a different story. But right today it is what it is.
>
>He's lost 2x to an all-time great team and arguably the GOAT
>PF and a top 3 HC in Popovich...he lost this year w/an
>undermanned team to the best team in the league that featured
>the MVP...he also beat Duncan and he beat the 2nd best player
>in the league in the finals in a rare head-to-head battle
>4-1...
>

Yeah he beat Duncan when he was well past his prime. A 36 year old Duncan. And then got beat by the worse margin ever the next year by an even older Duncan. And Durant is even less accomplished than Lebron.

Look Magic, Bird, hell Isaiah, Russell and them went thru HOF. And at what point in their careers they did it. Lebron is going thru a weak east every year to get to the Finals. He hasn't beat an All-Time Great in his prime yet. Durant is a stretch, Jordan kept dudes like Barkley, Ewing, Malone and Stockton from being greats. He beat then in years where they were the League MVP. Magic beat Bird and the Celts, and Dr. J and the Sixers and Isiah and the Bad Boy Pistons in the Finals. Kobe and Shaq went thru prime Duncan three times just to get to the finals. Kobe went thru Prime Duncan again with Gasol and also beat The KG, Pierce, Allen Celts in the Finals. And I haven't even mentioned the Portland and Sacramento or Minnesota teams he beat.

I'm not trying to take away from Lebron. He's great. I'm not a hater. But he's not in the same space at the greatest of the greats yet.

>He's the 1st player that I have seen that has had to go at it
>alone in the finals more than once...
>>

And that's commendable. He played a hell of series and kept it way closer than I thought he would. At the end of the day, he didn't win though. And 5 years from now, that's what everyone will remember. No one talks about the year Jerry West got the Finals MVP after a hard fought 7 game losing series to the Celtics. It didn't come up until this week. What people remembers is that he was 1-8 in the Finals. That's how we measure the greats bro. Doesn't mean they aren't great. Just means Lebron isn't an All-Time Great yet.

>>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo,
>Christon
>>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio
>


Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

Lebron is Wilt. Same Finals Record. Physically better and more gifted than everyone else. Just hasn't won as many titles as his contemporaries.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

The Cleveland Finals appearances are the only ones he should have lost. He had inferior talent to the other team. The Miami one's he should have won all 4.

Books have been written on this, so I'm not about to do that hear. And yes, I may be over simplyfing it for the sake of this being a message board.

But the bottom line is guys like Dr. J, Wilt, Jerry West, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone aren't in the best player ever conversations because they don't have as many rings as Magic, Mike, Duncan, Russell, Kobe and Bird.

They are just as talented in many cases as those guys. But not as accomplished.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

thats how ppl have been trying to spin it
he lost in the finals. Lost. You get nothing.

Alpha dog domination can't beat better team basketball

It's just fitting neatly into the narrative

As far as Bron as an individual player is concerned, it just reaffirmed what people already knew - that Bron is the best player in basketball.

This loss shows that he has come a long way as a leader since his first trips to the finals, and faced with a tough road he can say he shined.

Other than that this W is more for the brand of basketball and team that GSW is and their future in the NBA. It ain't about Bron at all.

this Cavs team reminds me a lot of the 2008 Lakers.

Anyone who thinks he should have won with that 2007 squad (edit any of those Cleveand teams tbh) cannot be taken seriously at all.

The Spurs weren't more talented than them. They just played together better as a team.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

in 2013, Lebron could easily be 1-5 in the finals instead of 2-4

>in 2013, Lebron could easily be 1-5 in the finals instead of
>2-4

Shows you the power of playing as a team. Spurs weren't as talented top to bottom.


Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

calls

Jerry West lost 10x in the finals

The only team Lebron has been on when he went to the finals that was the better team or at least even, because they both had the same regular sesson records, was the Mavs

After that the Heat were NEVER the better team in the finals because Wade's health declined precipitously after that 1st season...plus the fact the Heat were never a deep team nor were they big up front which is why they were the worse rebounding team of any team won a championship

>in 2013, Lebron could easily be 1-5 in the finals instead of
>2-4

Lebron just averaged 13 boards a game this series. And pre-Miami Bosh used to be 10-11-12 plus boards a game. And even with a depleted Wade, Miami still had more talent top to bottom. plus the best player on the court in Lebron.

To me the biggest difference wasn't talent, it was coaching. They had just beat them last year. They should have won it again.


Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

The Spurs basically snatched defeat from the jaws of victory lol. Still, Bron's performance in Game 7 that year fireproofs him, end of story.

To me the failing Bron had was 2011 and that's about it. 07 his team had no chance, in this series they pretty much had no chance either.

I was mad as hell at that, too.

Only the most recent Super Bowl (and perhaps the one for the 04-05 season, for reasons we both know) made me that mad.

(actually, no. 2011 Super Bowl did that too... FUCK YOU BRADY)

your whole life is being mad. i have the more traditional approach of letting the philly teams aggravate and then, once they are eliminated, finding some other underdog du jour assholes to wish well that crush the faint remnants of my soul.

before the playoffs the Heat don't want to see the Spurs. They were calling me crazy like they forgot the Spurs were in control of that series in 2012 and had the Heat dead to rights in game #6 until they choked it away.

Anyway... I had a good time telling them how right I was as SA blew the fuckin doors of the Heat ending their run.. lol


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lol @ everybody partying now.

Isn't as important as the other guys losing
____________________

<================== Learn the name now before everyone gets dunked on

exactly.

someone's gonna have to link these posts where y'all picked the cavs after Kyrie went down. We all knew what the deal was, and you're acting brand new.

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You mean the year most people picked the Lakers? You mean the year he still had Gasol? You mean the time every Kobestan came in here shouting "Lakers in 5"?

Funny, I must've missed the "Cavs in 5" brigade a couple weeks ago. You know, since those two scenarios are so comparable.

Lakers were outmanned talent-wise and people still picked them instead of hedging their bets like a mfer. Kobestan rode with Kobe to win and dealt with the consequences after

instead of this weak ass plea copping going on right now

Most people were picking the Lakers. That's not true of the Cavs even when they HAD Kyrie. The situations aren't comparable in the least. Bynum and Ariza = Love, Kyrie, and Varejao. They just don't. FOH.

Just look at the rosters

>Just look at the rosters

I had Boston all the way (no preference, I hated both teams) and even during the series Jackson was looking/sounding defeated/at a loss.

I would say they were definitely favored in the Detroit series that they lost though.

the west w/o Bynum...

And Bean was the MVP

And they blew a 25 pt lead AT HOME in that series lololololololol

And Pierce outplayed or at least neutralized Bean in that series

Yeah man not the same

if you wanna play that game. Took everything the Lakers had to beat the Celtics when they were on the decline and KG was never the same after knee surgery.

Whatever praise dude gets, its never EVER enough.


Any slight context to his accomplishments, its taken as an insult or something.

Like I used to think I didn't like Lebron, and that's not even true. It hit me this series. He's not the corny one. Its his fans. His fans are the absolute worst.


Best player of his generation, all-time great, top 10/7/5 whatever....

When is it enough?

Why are Bron fans still defensive??? Who are you arguing against??

Dude is constantly showered with praise.

I honestly cant figure out what some of these Lebron fans want to hear??

Just browsing through this thread the amount of pleas and re-written history (OKC was the favored team now?) and I'm starting to think some of ya'll need professional help.

He's not the GOAT. He's just not. And that's okay, he is an all-time great...phenomenal talent, physically incredible, tremendous teammate, high b-ball IQ...all that praise. All if it is true, and all of it is said over and over again.

Why can't that be enough?

Why is "not the GOAT" such an insult, when really it's not even a debate?

A reminder that context goes both ways too, which also seems lost on Bron stans.

--Kobe has 5

"but, but he had Shaq!"

Umm, Bron didn't run to Miami to get his chips?

Bron hasn't spent last few years residing in probably the weakest conference in history???

5 straight finals is impressive not matter what, sure...but easy on missing the context. Who did he beat this year? Last year? We giving out stripes for beating Horford now?

Again, great accomplishment...but not GODLY and historic. That conference is/has been sh!t.

It would be nice if you could have a conversation with a Lebron fan that took place in reality. On both sides, just enjoy his skills and game in a RATIONAL way.

It would be nice to be able to talk about basketball and not feel like you are talking to an over-stimulated One Direction fan.

No one. The injuries involved aren't comparable to any finals situation we've seen before. Yet Bron played his ass off, made it a series, and they still lost just like we all expected them to. What is there to discuss here when no one expected anything more than this?

why are folks acting like this was some insurmountable feat

CLE COULD HAVE WON THAT SERIES.

that doesn't mean that the match-up has suddenly changed, it's just that we react to every game as if it's the be all end all. It was still a deep ass team with the best record vs. LeBron. they were still grossly outgunned and overmatched and that fact caught up to them. 2 wins in this series exceeded expectations, that's all there is to this.

win or lose, Bron's legacy (or whatever the fok) will not be affected

for this to be posted the day after an L is a plea cop.

CLE COULD HAVE WON THAT SERIES (I didn't hear you disagree with that)

CLE didn't, of course that is a negative.

The consensus was he doesn't deserve frying as long as he plays well... and that was
BEFORE kyrie was declared out

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2451486&mesg_id=2451486&page=4

trying to spin an L into a W

is worlds apart from frying him for an L

c'mon

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2451486&mesg_id=2451486&page=4#2451753

IMO, losing a winnable series is a negative

spin away.

2-2 I already started talking shit to Vex that the series was over.

It was unsustainable, only a simpleton couldn't see that.

the moment was too big for GS. I mean, they hadn't won anything yet. Look at the 2011 Heat. So even tho GS had the better team there was no guarantee that they were going to figure it out and respond. When they came out of game #4 w/ a 20 point win tho I agree with you. I though it was there series to lose at that point.


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if you look at the arc of the memphis series, it was almost identical and knowing that i never had serious questions about the dubs.

NBA Finals, Bron, etc.. It was a little different. I just can't give a team the benefit of the doubt if they haven't won it. I knew they were more than capable but they actually had to do it.


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Cleveland absolutely could have won. It wasn't until GS pushed the pace to > 100ppg that the Warriors took control of the series. With the injuries, the Cavs were primarily a defensive team that couldn't score a lot but they were more than capable of winning if the pace was slower.


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No middle ground between 1 and 0. Makes for some really stupid and pointless topics...OKS is case in point, this post included.

>Like I used to think I didn't like Lebron, and that's not even
>true. It hit me this series. He's not the corny one. Its
>his fans. His fans are the absolute worst.

(though I do think LeBron has some bouts of extreme, Favrish corn... LeBronies make it unbearable. the concern, even now that he has 2 titles to his name, about his legacy. he does NOT need to get 6 championships to etch his name in the history books. he has already done that.)

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..fuck all the pc language associated with losing (in the finals or anywhere else along the way).

in the end, finishing 2nd is actually worse that finishing last (see, the way that draft lottery is set up... © kevin hart).

did lebron & the cavs over-achieve this season? perhaps. but that doesn't change the fact that they loss to a better team. right now, lebron is 2-4 in the finals. that's not the worst look, but certainly not a good one either. you don't erase or excuse a loss, you simply move on.

when its all said & done, the only thing that matters in a losing effort is that you do it respectfully and go out fighting.






*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

>in the end, finishing 2nd is actually worse that finishing
>last (see, the way that draft lottery is set up... © kevin
>hart).


>did lebron & the cavs over-achieve this season? perhaps.

lol @ "perhaps" when we were all intensely debating their second round match-up. FOH.

People who say "finishing second is worse than finishing last" show me how little they have competed for anything in their life.

You sound like the type of dude who would watch "We Are Marshall" and be like "NOPE! NO EXCUSES!" right now. Fall back, my man.

.

..and as far as these pleas bein' copped by the cavs & their fans:

there's no consolation prize for 2nd place.

fuckouttahere with these new breed orgs that wanna hand out trophies for "participation" just so every child gets a trophy.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

>in the end, finishing 2nd is actually worse that finishing
>last (see, the way that draft lottery is set up... © kevin
>hart).

Ask the fan of any team picking in the top 5 if they'd like their team to switch places with where the Cavs are. Outside of Coolidge, everybody would do that.

>Outside of Coolidge, everybody would do that.

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

He's now universally recognized as a top 5 ATG (wasn't prior to this season and deep playoff run w/ the Bad News Bears).

the only people who don't recognize how great Bron's run was in this post-season are those who have never (or begrudgingly) given him credit for anything.

4 out of 11 MVP votes for a team that lost a Finals Series 4-2 is unbelievably telling.

Even Kobe is tweeting in his defense lol. It's a beautiful thing.

-->

-->

does that make you uncomfortable? nervous?

All your life you had to struggle and fight?

But RA, we gonna be alright!

-->

>If anything, these finals should go in the plus column

Depending on who you ask, not making it to the finals is somehow more okay than making it to the finals and losing...with injuries.

it aint over by a long shot

He shot 25% in the last 5 minutes and overtimes throughout the Finals. If you're going to carry your team to the Finals, declare yourself the best player in the world after a pivotal loss, and "reluctantly" dominate the offense while shooting 30+ FG's a game, you have to be the one to hit big shots when the game is on the line. LeBron was unable to do that, and it must be mentioned in his legacy.

8-32
25%

I've noticed yall get real quiet when numbers come up. Guess it's hard to move goalposts around them...

>He shot 25% in the last 5 minutes and overtimes throughout
>the Finals. If you're going to carry your team to the Finals,
>declare yourself the best player in the world after a pivotal
>loss, and "reluctantly" dominate the offense while shooting
>30+ FG's a game, you have to be the one to hit big shots when
>the game is on the line. LeBron was unable to do that, and it
>must be mentioned in his legacy.
>
>8-32
>25%
>
>I've noticed yall get real quiet when numbers come up. Guess
>it's hard to move goalposts around them...

for probably 5 more years.

He's playing for GOAT status so anything short of a ring is going to be disproportionally ridiculed.

this finals will be remember for what it was, a kind of close loss.

also while he played very well i think the people calling it "the best finals performance ever" are way off base.

so to me he deserves credit for the playoff run and golden state deserves credit for being the champion and the best team in the league all year. i mean you look at all these teams that got hot--cleveland, san antonio, the clippers--and golden state was keeping pace or ahead of them pretty much wire to wire anyway (even looking at any particular stretch).

the cavs were thrown together this year and actually wound up getting stronger and deeper. Next season is the real test of mettle for them IMO.

- if you perform well individually, a finals loss doesn't count.

- if you lose an all star teammate to injury, a finals loss doesn't count.

- if your supporting cast just isn't very good to begin with, a finals loss doesn't count.

- if the opposing team is more talented, a finals loss doesn't count.

does that sum it up?

and these apply to everyone, right? not just one guy?

Injuries to Malone, Bynum... supporting cast wasn't good enough after that.. nope...

Oh yeah... and I'm glad you're pointing out these ridiculous got damn rules they keep coming up with... haha
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.

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This is the sort of sports talk radio mentality I'd like to escape in here.

but they were. we all knew it at the time. we all know it now. if the 2nd and 3rd best player go down, the star player is absorbed from blame unless he plays like dogshit. this seems pretty basic.

sure it increases their chances but it's not a guarantee.. They lost game #1 w/ Kyrie putting up 23.
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considering that he basically -was- the team after options 2 and 3 went down.

it's that, the idea that this loss enhances his legacy even more... I dunno about that just yet. I think depending on how the next couple of seasons go, it has the potential to do so. But right now... nah

and again, the reason why people are pooh-poohing this (particularly the Kobe fans), is that LeBron really had a "dogshit" shooting performance in the playoffs, something others are excoriated for on the regular. He hit some amazing shots, put out an amazing effort, but well below his 2012 benchmark.

there's no reason, on paper, that this should've gone 6. we all knew that once kyrie went down.


>and again, the reason why people are pooh-poohing this
>(particularly the Kobe fans), is that LeBron really had a
>"dogshit" shooting performance in the playoffs, something
>others are excoriated for on the regular. He hit some amazing
>shots, put out an amazing effort, but well below his 2012
>benchmark.
>

true, but it's not like he did zero else. and it's not like he ENJOYS volume shooting. he knows it's not normally conducive to winning, he just had no choice. if the comparison is to kobe (which is a comparison i'm frankly bored with), volume shooting is kobe's first option and bron's last.

On paper, the best player in the NBA "should" be worth 1-2 wins in a playoff series

Lebron didnt pull any sort of Jimmy Chitwood shit. CLE won 2 games, and he shot <40% and averaged 9 assists during the most ball dominant series any NBA player has ever had.

*contemptuous clap*

the hype through three games somehow carried through six and that's odd. he only had one outright weak game i guess but to say this was the best finals performance ever or the best finals performance in a loss is just profoundly ignorant of history.

>- if you perform well individually, a finals loss doesn't
>count.
>
>- if you lose an all star teammate to injury, a finals loss
>doesn't count.
>
>- if your supporting cast just isn't very good to begin with,
>a finals loss doesn't count.
>
>- if the opposing team is more talented, a finals loss doesn't
>count.
>
>does that sum it up?
>
>and these apply to everyone, right? not just one guy?

... These rules apply to Lebron only because HE LED BOTH TEAMS IN POINTS, REBOUNDS, AND ASSISTS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NBA HISTORY.

Have to add one more rule to the new "BronCurve:

If two all-stars and another great playmaker are out with injuries then the loss doesn't have an effect upon the player's legacy and does not count.

Finally, if Jordan fans can Cuban B his failures in the 80's and ignore NBA history when it doesn't benefit them then Bron fans can add new rules as well.

>... These rules apply to Lebron only because HE LED BOTH TEAMS
>IN POINTS, REBOUNDS, AND ASSISTS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NBA
>HISTORY.

Great

>Have to add one more rule to the new "BronCurve:
>
>If two all-stars and another great playmaker are out with
>injuries then the loss doesn't have an effect upon the
>player's legacy and does not count.

LMMFAO

>Finally, if Jordan fans can Cuban B his failures in the 80's
>and ignore NBA history when it doesn't benefit them then Bron
>fans can add new rules as well.

Jordan lost to: Bucks (rookie year), Celtics (broken ankle, came back for the 'offs), Celtics, Pistons, Pistons, Pistons. Of those 6 teams, 5 made the finals and 3 times won the title.

Has Bron beaten any team of that caliber WIHTOUT ALLSTAR/HOF help? Because Jordan didn't have any when he was losing. Pip/Grant didn't arrive until the last 2 losses vs the pistons and weren't Pip/Grant at the time (they were rookies and 2nd year players...LESS EXPERIENCED THAN KYRIE AND K-LOVE).

Yes Jordan lost. Kobe did too. Bron did also. Losses count. So do W's. One of those 3 has more than the other 2.

But we get it. You hate Michael Jordan. Cool.

>Jordan lost to: Bucks (rookie year), Celtics (broken ankle,
>came back for the 'offs), Celtics, Pistons, Pistons, Pistons.
>Of those 6 teams, 5 made the finals and 3 times won the
>title.

NOPE, THOSE LOSSES DON'T COUNT BECAUSE HE'S JORDAN (c) Jordan fans. Once again, since those losses don't count then we in the new era. You can't cry over the Bron Curve when the JordanCurve stays in tact forever.
>
>Has Bron beaten any team of that caliber WIHTOUT ALLSTAR/HOF
>help? Because Jordan didn't have any when he was losing.
>Pip/Grant didn't arrive until the last 2 losses vs the pistons
>and weren't Pip/Grant at the time (they were rookies and 2nd
>year players...LESS EXPERIENCED THAN KYRIE AND K-LOVE).

Off the top of my head without researching... the 07 pistons. The 07 Cavs was a D League team (c) OKSports.

>
>Yes Jordan lost. Kobe did too. Bron did also. Losses count.
> So do W's. One of those 3 has more than the other 2.
>
>But we get it. You hate Michael Jordan. Cool.

Kobe's losses count but Michael's don't because he's Jordan. I don't hate Jordan at all. However, someone has to speak the truth about his run and place his accomplishments in proper 2015 perspective.

Jordan played in an ENTIRELY different era so it's not a fair comparison. Free agent wasn't popping like it is now. Parity didn't exist the same way it does now. Analytics weren't as prevalent back then.

You the same person that chastizes Lebron for playing a weak east yet gloss over Jordan's run. Kobe's western conference>>>>anything Jordan faced en route to a title. Jordan's not winning six titles in today's NBA.

Don't make me find the post that puts Duncan's, Jordan's, Kobe's, and Lebron's strength of schedule en route to the finals in context. You not ready for that yet.

>NOPE, THOSE LOSSES DON'T COUNT BECAUSE HE'S JORDAN (c) Jordan
>fans. Once again, since those losses don't count then we in
>the new era. You can't cry over the Bron Curve when the
>JordanCurve stays in tact forever.

The difference is we are talking about the first 6 seasons of Jordans career and they followed a steady curve of progression. There was no regression. Once he made his first 2nd rd he never lost in the first. Once he made his first ECF there were no 2nd rd exits. Etc. Dont be dense.

par, which he did.

Lebron's record in the finals is fair play only if you are willing to give him his props for the number of times he's been there. You can't jump to his finals record as a knock against him, unless you are giving him credit for the 6x trips in his first 10-11 years.

If his Finals record was 2-0, that would not be better than 2-4.