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Forum nameOkay Sports
Topic subjectMark Jackson: "Lebron greatest SF ever."
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2331526
2331526, Mark Jackson: "Lebron greatest SF ever."
Posted by abstractionism, Tue May-27-14 09:28 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2076555-mark-jackson-says-lebron-james-is-greatest-small-forward-in-nba-history


what about Bird?
2331534, Defense, versatility and intangibles put him ahead of Bird.
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 09:37 AM
>http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2076555-mark-jackson-says-lebron-james-is-greatest-small-forward-in-nba-history
>
>
>what about Bird?

Also, LONGEVITY and durability.

But Bird and Lebron's peaks were waaaaay closer than their
careers.

And offensively, Bird mops the floor with Lebron.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331638, RE: Defense, versatility and intangibles put him ahead of Bird.
Posted by StakksAbbot, Tue May-27-14 01:28 PM
speed
speed
speed
physical ability (jumping, vision)
speed
health (durability)

all better than bird ever had..stats aren't the end all when determining one's value, and the 80's while rougher (debatable what that even means other than trying to merge pro wrestling with b-ball) the talent was nowhere near what it is today..the greats were the greats, they always will be, no matter the era, but the REST of the league was shit...

lebron is a point guard, with a power forwards body, that shoots like a two guard, and shuts down 1-5...

NO ONE IS ON HIS LEVEL, SORRY
2331661, LOL. Bird used to give fast negroes slavery flashbacks.
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 03:17 PM


Not sure why you're doing this, I already said Lebron
better

Lebron's defensive ability and ability to change
into a role playing banger if he needs to put him
over the top

>speed
>speed
>speed
>physical ability (jumping, vision)
>speed

LOL

So Lebron is faster and quicker? So was Dominique. So
was Rodman and thousands of other negroids that Bird
used to make extremely mad

And Bird was a better passer, and 50,000 times better
shooter, and better rebounder.

>health (durability)

LOL. I already mentioned this.

>all better than bird ever had..stats aren't the end all when
>determining one's value, and the 80's while rougher (debatable
>what that even means other than trying to merge pro wrestling
>with b-ball) the talent was nowhere near what it is today..the
>greats were the greats, they always will be, no matter the
>era, but the REST of the league was shit...

Lebron would get punched in the jaw with all that crab
dribbling random drives to the basket shit. He'd HAVE to
shoot jumpers more, and more would clang off the rim.
Defense in the 80s was way, way, way more stifling.

>lebron is a point guard, with a power forwards body, that
>shoots like a two guard, and shuts down 1-5...

Bird was a forward, who passed like a point guard, was one
of the 3-5 shooters to ever live, one of the best rebounding
3s ever (again, better than Lebron). Offensively he was without
a flaw.

2332324, RE: LOL. Bird used to give fast negroes slavery flashbacks.
Posted by SsenepoD, Thu May-29-14 07:49 PM

>Defense in the 80s was way, way, way more stifling.
>

Also in the 80s; the average players range was a lot closer than today, so it was less about "great defense" than bad offense.
2331688, aren't you like 20?
Posted by DJR, Tue May-27-14 05:39 PM
"and the 80's while rougher (debatable what that even means other than trying to merge pro wrestling with b-ball) the talent was nowhere near what it is today..the greats were the greats, they always will be, no matter the era, but the REST of the league was shit..."

What's that based on? Youtube clips and ESPN Classic? FOH.
2331537, he's late
Posted by melmag, Tue May-27-14 09:43 AM
2331540, ^^base^^
Posted by southphillyman, Tue May-27-14 09:46 AM
is anyone even arguing against this at this point?
discussion already done moved on to whether or not he can surpass jordan as the all time great
2331542, Nah, you said Lebron needed Lance to put up 32-10
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 09:54 AM

People like me said that he's so great, 32-10 is pretty
normal

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331544, He put up 49 on Pierce. I was expecting more from him, really.
Posted by T Reynolds, Tue May-27-14 09:55 AM
2331548, I mean, Bird put 37-9-9 on DENNIS RODMAN in a game 7
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 10:01 AM

Made Rodman so mad, Rodman pulled the race card

But apparently Lebron going off on flabby Paul Pierce
and putting up 32-10 on a man he's four inches and
50 lbs heavier than is domination

I'm crying


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331624, You continue to bring this up w/o mentioning the fact that that was
Posted by vee-lover, Tue May-27-14 12:44 PM
only Rodman's *2nd* season in the league...

he hadn't become the defensive stopper at that point in his career. It was by his *3rd* season that he started to become the defensive player he was and when he became a starter...and that's when Rodman (even according to Bill Simmons) gave Bird all kinds of fits. He was only playing 15 minutes per game in his 2nd season and then went to 32 minutes per by his *3rd* season.


>Made Rodman so mad, Rodman pulled the race card
>
>But apparently Lebron going off on flabby Paul Pierce
>and putting up 32-10 on a man he's four inches and
>50 lbs heavier than is domination
>
>I'm crying

Uh George guarded Lebron more than Lance did last night and PG is actually abt 6-9 and a better defensive player than "Born Ready."
2331628, o so you saying Paul George got torched?!?! Bwahahahahah
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 12:58 PM

>Uh George guarded Lebron more than Lance did last night and PG
>is actually abt 6-9 and a better defensive player than "Born
>Ready."

Bwaahahahahahahahahaahahah

So it was PG and not Born Ready?

How the fuck do y'all let me set y'all up for this
shit so easily?!??

Y'all ain't learned NOTHING?!?!?


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331629, Oh of course PG was getting torched!!! and so was Lance, PG just
Posted by vee-lover, Tue May-27-14 01:01 PM
guarded Lebron more throughout the game...but make no mistake abt it, both of em got it took to them


>>Uh George guarded Lebron more than Lance did last night and
>PG
>>is actually abt 6-9 and a better defensive player than "Born
>>Ready."
>
>Bwaahahahahahahahahaahahah
>
>So it was PG and not Born Ready?
>
>How the fuck do y'all let me set y'all up for this
>shit so easily?!??
>
>Y'all ain't learned NOTHING?!?!?
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "
2331665, RE: You continue to bring this up w/o mentioning the fact that that was
Posted by COOLEHMAGAZINE, Tue May-27-14 03:30 PM
>only Rodman's *2nd* season in the league...
>
>he hadn't become the defensive stopper at that point in his
>career. It was by his *3rd* season that he started to become
>the defensive player he was and when he became a starter...and
>that's when Rodman (even according to Bill Simmons) gave Bird
>all kinds of fits. He was only playing 15 minutes per game in
>his 2nd season and then went to 32 minutes per by his *3rd*
>season.
>
>
>>Made Rodman so mad, Rodman pulled the race card
>>
>>But apparently Lebron going off on flabby Paul Pierce
>>and putting up 32-10 on a man he's four inches and
>>50 lbs heavier than is domination
>>
>>I'm crying
>
>Uh George guarded Lebron more than Lance did last night and PG
>is actually abt 6-9 and a better defensive player than "Born
>Ready."
>


There you go again with your "facts" and "reasoned assertions", we will see how far this gets you.

2331671, RE: You continue to bring this up w/o mentioning the fact that that was
Posted by vee-lover, Tue May-27-14 03:51 PM
don't hate on the messenger

Rodman was only in his 2nd season and was only playing 15 minutes per...behind Adrian Dantley.

His 3rd season when he began getting starter minutes and when he was emerging into the defensive player he became.

So Bird scoring 37/9/9 on a 2nd year player doesn't really say anything
2331549, lmao
Posted by southphillyman, Tue May-27-14 10:08 AM
OE reaching so bad with this shit it's sad
2331551, Nets had no rim protection
Posted by mashpg89, Tue May-27-14 10:14 AM
Bron shot 10-11 at the rim and took 19 free throws, mostly on drives to the rim.
2331553, True. Having Lopez would have prevented the 49.
Posted by T Reynolds, Tue May-27-14 10:17 AM
He still would have beasted but it wouldn't have gotten stupid like that
2331556, *clears throat* andhechokedonthe50
Posted by mashpg89, Tue May-27-14 10:23 AM
2331559, Yep. Bombastic was like Kobe never had a 50pt game in the offs EVER
Posted by T Reynolds, Tue May-27-14 10:24 AM
Well neither did bron-bron
2331591, lol
Posted by Vex_id, Tue May-27-14 11:16 AM

-->
2331563, O...my, man...you already won with the Born Ready agenda...
Posted by Dstl1, Tue May-27-14 10:26 AM
he's pretty fucking good. But, I dunno what you're going for with this addendum. Chill, fam...fall back and enjoy your victory. This part ain't workin.
2331581, True...cats tryna deflect and blame Lebron's goodness on Born Ready
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 10:50 AM
>he's pretty fucking good. But, I dunno what you're going for
>with this addendum. Chill, fam...fall back and enjoy your
>victory. This part ain't workin.

That they are doing that at all is affirmation of the
agenda: if Born Ready wasn't good, nobody would care

Just gotta stay focused

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331592, What about Bird?
Posted by Vex_id, Tue May-27-14 11:18 AM
Great, legendary player.

But he ain't Kang - no shame in that.

-->
2331639, it wasn't a given Bird was the starting SF before...
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Tue May-27-14 01:29 PM
because there was definitely a strong argument for both Dr. J and Elgin Baylor for that spot...

but I'd agree to putting Lebron there now..

I think the only real question now would be who would be the starting PF.... if we keep it strictly to guys who actually played the position..I'm guessing the argument comes down to Karl Malone vs. Tim Duncan..... but in reality I'd make the exception for that position and put Bill Russell there since Kareem (or Wilt) would be the starting Center...

the spots that I think are for sure now would be

Pg- Magic
SG- Jordan
SF- Bron
C- Kareem

2331640, There was some footage of young Timmay on the other day
Posted by bentagain, Tue May-27-14 01:54 PM
I forgot, not only how athletic he was in his early days

but also, that every single move he relies on now

he had from day 1

it's really not close.
2331641, Timmay has one of the 5 most adaptable games in history
Posted by Orbit_Established, Tue May-27-14 01:56 PM

There isn't a single offense/defense in any era that
he doesn't fit into

Like you mentioned, Timmay was actually VERY athletic
for his position in his youth and is more athletic than
he seems now

He's easily the best 4 of all time

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "
2331659, one thing that I always think of with Timmay and the PF position
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Tue May-27-14 03:06 PM
I mean if he wasn't drafted onto a team that already had David Robinson...he would have come in playing Center..and would have stayed there..

he was a center in college....and the only reason he moved to PF was because his team already had a future hall of fame center..

so as much as I'm not the biggest fan of the Mailman.... he is really more of a true PF than Timmay.
2331694, I think that sentiment gets convoluted by the adaptation of small ball
Posted by bentagain, Tue May-27-14 06:05 PM
kinda how KG was a PF in Minny and then a C in BOS, and now BKN

the league went to small ball

which allowed Timmay to move from PF to C, as well as KG

I don't think either pop into my head as GOAT Cs

but they do for PFs

$.02

if you're alluding to him playing out of position, see my reply above

he was athletic enough, with size, to guard PFs

I don't remember PFs getting by him with speed, etc...

now if you had The Admiral guarding somebody like Karl or CWeb

that's probably a mismatch

you follow

C in NCAA doesn't mean a whole lot

Duke had Parker playing C this year and he's a SF in the league

just sayin
2331699, ^great post and I agree playing center in college doesn't mean
Posted by vee-lover, Tue May-27-14 06:23 PM
that that's a player's natural position

6-7 Dejuan Blair played center at Pitt

>kinda how KG was a PF in Minny and then a C in BOS, and now
>BKN
>
>the league went to small ball
>
>which allowed Timmay to move from PF to C, as well as KG
>
>I don't think either pop into my head as GOAT Cs
>
>but they do for PFs
>
>$.02
>
>if you're alluding to him playing out of position, see my
>reply above
>
>he was athletic enough, with size, to guard PFs
>
>I don't remember PFs getting by him with speed, etc...
>
>now if you had The Admiral guarding somebody like Karl or
>CWeb
>
>that's probably a mismatch
>
>you follow
>
>C in NCAA doesn't mean a whole lot
>
>Duke had Parker playing C this year and he's a SF in the
>league
>
>just sayin
2332098, KG didn't play Center for the Celts until later...
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Thu May-29-14 12:10 AM
>kinda how KG was a PF in Minny and then a C in BOS, and now
>BKN

He played PF next to Perkins when they won the title..

it wasn't until he was older and slowed that he moved to Center..

I remember guys like KG getting some criticism because they were 7 footers who didn't play center and had expressed a desire NOT to play Center....

KG in fact played a lot SF for the Wolves too back when they had like Joe Smith


>the league went to small ball
>
>which allowed Timmay to move from PF to C, as well as KG
>
>I don't think either pop into my head as GOAT Cs
>
>but they do for PFs
>
>$.02
>
>if you're alluding to him playing out of position, see my
>reply above
>
>he was athletic enough, with size, to guard PFs
>
>I don't remember PFs getting by him with speed, etc...
>
>now if you had The Admiral guarding somebody like Karl or
>CWeb
>
>that's probably a mismatch
>
>you follow
>
>C in NCAA doesn't mean a whole lot
>
>Duke had Parker playing C this year and he's a SF in the
>league
>
>just sayin


but here's the thing too though...

Post David Robinson

can you name a Spurs STARTING Center who was consistently on the court during crunch time during ANY of the Spurs runs??

I can't...

at those times...when the games count...Tim Duncan may not have been starting as the Spurs Center..but since the Admiral the position of starting Center for the Spurs has been insignificant...and during that times that really count...Tim Duncan has been playing Center for the Spurs...

starting Tim at PF allows the Spurs to have someone else guard the teams best Big man thus saving Timmmay's energy and fouls if the other teams Center is an offensive threat...

but again.... being 7 foot...basically a center because your entire game is post and facing the basket below the free throw line... to be in that position yet not take the responsibility of guarding the best big man on the other team and being your teams Center is something that's a big questionable to me.... I think it was Bill Russell who talked about that some years ago...like saying KG and Duncan could help their teams more if they played Center ...and they should step up...

in this playoffs right today...Splitter is cool...but when it matters...Diaw is going to be at PF and Timmay is going to be at Center
2332102, Tim was a PF/C
Posted by FILF, Thu May-29-14 01:12 AM
>KG in fact played a lot SF for the Wolves too back when they
>had like Joe Smith
KG was basically Bron before Bron.....I remember him playing back-up point in the 2004 post-season after Troy Hudson got hurt. He was more of a PF/SF in Minny than a PF/C. (Dirk is also a SF masquerading as the PF)

>can you name a Spurs STARTING Center who was consistently on
>the court during crunch time during ANY of the Spurs runs??

The Spurs signed Robert Horry to strictly play crunch time minutes thus Tim was a center by default. Nazr Mohammed might have been the best starting Center Tim played alongside with since Admiral just based on his 2005 post-season performance. Even in 2003, Malik Rose used to finish games depending on how well he's playing.


>in this playoffs right today...Splitter is cool...but when it
>matters...Diaw is going to be at PF and Timmay is going to be
>at Center
Basically......but if you take into account the entire game, Tim in his PRIME played more minutes as a PF than as a C. He even appears on All-NBA Teams as a "Forward". With that said it is to his credit that he was able to play TWO position at an elite level.
2332328, the position of starting Center in the NBA has been insignificant
Posted by bentagain, Thu May-29-14 07:57 PM
there might be a handful of true Cs even in the league

like, AT ALL

and off the top, the only teams I can think of that feature a true C

would be CHA and Al Jeff, maybe MEM with Marc Gasol?

outside of that

literally every NBA team is running a PF at C today

which we might just have to attribute to Timmay and nem's success

see Filf's reply

KG running with Perk sounds alot like Nazr

and I wouldn't even call Perk a C

he's just slower and less athletic than most PFs

like the bizzaro Timmay.

2331647, The C spot is more in question than the PF spot. Tim has that
Posted by soulfunk, Tue May-27-14 02:14 PM
locked down. But there's nowhere near any consensus on the top center, and if so, it would probably be Wilt and not Kareem.

Damn I just got caught in an agenda trap. Before posting I wouldn't have even given Kareem a chance at the top spot. But since you stated something outlandish but in a matter-of-fact way (that Cap is the top C and it's not even in question like the PF position) I had to meet you halfway with my response.

2331648, and you'd find equally as many ppl who would say Bill Russell
Posted by vee-lover, Tue May-27-14 02:17 PM
and if so, it would probably be Wilt and not
>Kareem.

2331650, the argument of Kareem over Wilt is pretty simple...straight forward
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Tue May-27-14 02:23 PM
>locked down. But there's nowhere near any consensus on the
>top center, and if so, it would probably be Wilt and not
>Kareem.
>
>Damn I just got caught in an agenda trap. Before posting I
>wouldn't have even given Kareem a chance at the top spot. But
>since you stated something outlandish but in a matter-of-fact
>way (that Cap is the top C and it's not even in question like
>the PF position) I had to meet you halfway with my response.

I think offensively they'd be pretty even....Kareem being a much better free throw shooter does count for a lot...he ended up scoring more points...people say that was because he played longer, but the fact that he had a level of effectiveness past 40 is another reason why I'd give him the nod...
they're also about even as passers, but I'd give a slight edge to Kareem...

defensively again about even...may give Kareem the advantage as a shot blocker...and Wilt an advantage as a rebounder..

Kareem played against stiffer competition throughout his career too..

but the other thing that to me is the deal breaker..

Kareem is the best and most dominant High School player ever...
He's the best and most dominant College player ever...
and he ended his pro career as the all time leading scorer with multiple titles with different teams and MVPs..

So I mean if we go from Power Memorial High School in 1961 until 1989 with the Lakers.... Nobody has a career like that in terms of dominance ..individual success ....team success...and changing the game...nobody.
2331653, Oh I get that there's an argument, no doubt. But that's nowhere
Posted by soulfunk, Tue May-27-14 02:37 PM
near consensus like you mentioned in your post...if you were gonna have a vote I'm guessing Kareem would come in second or third, with a few people putting him fourth.

Center has got to be the toughest position to evaluate across eras.
2332081, yeah it was. hell before now Bird was the best forward ever, not just SF
Posted by 40thStreetBlack, Wed May-28-14 11:06 PM
>because there was definitely a strong argument for both Dr. J
>and Elgin Baylor for that spot...

love Julius but no. and you might make an argument for Elgin in comparison to their respective eras, but at 6-5 if you take him out of his era he's not matching up with Bird so no.


>I think the only real question now would be who would be the
>starting PF.... if we keep it strictly to guys who actually
>played the position..I'm guessing the argument comes down to
>Karl Malone vs. Tim Duncan.....

If you're calling Duncan a 4 there is no argument, but he's really a 5.


>the spots that I think are for sure now would be
>
>Pg- Magic
>SG- Jordan
>SF- Bron
>C- Kareem

can't argue with that.
2331696, I'd have to agree. Bron's impact, in every facet, puts him at #1 at SF
Posted by LA2Philly, Tue May-27-14 06:09 PM
.
2331700, I'd take Bird and Pip over him
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue May-27-14 06:39 PM
2331704, Welp, then you're an idiot. Hate to break it to you like this. n/m
Posted by Ryan M, Tue May-27-14 07:10 PM
2331708, thanks for the PSA-go play in traffic ass out
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue May-27-14 07:45 PM
2331710, You'd take Scottie Pippen over Lebron James.
Posted by Ryan M, Tue May-27-14 07:54 PM
I want you to read that sentence and let it sink in.

Or...can you read? Is this being dictated to you from text-to-voice? Because I can't believe you have vision if this is truly the case.
2331733, Man shut your whore ass up and calm down
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue May-27-14 08:44 PM
You DO know these things are pretty subjective, right?
2331763, This one? Nah.
Posted by Ryan M, Tue May-27-14 09:33 PM
2331959, Yeah it is, shitslammer
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Wed May-28-14 06:39 PM
Comparison across eras especially
2331732, RE: I'd take Bird and Pip over him
Posted by murph71, Tue May-27-14 08:43 PM


Man...I'm Chi til I die and have no use for Miami if they not playing the Spurs...

But I'm looking at u kinda funny, dog....lol
2331748, Traffic ass x2
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue May-27-14 09:04 PM
2331753, Why?
Posted by PCProductions, Tue May-27-14 09:09 PM
2332097, you know .... Dominique Wilkins is kind of underrated..
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Wed May-28-14 11:59 PM
this subject got me lookin at some numbers....

You can't sleep on Pippen either because his assists were high particularly for a SF..

but damn...

Dominique Wilkins numbers are friggin incredible.....of course the 30...28...27 PPG.....

but had some solid rebounding seasons too.... his 90-91 season he averaged 9 boards a game...shot 34% from three..and averaged what was for him a lower 25.9 PPG... but it's some pretty good SFs who didn't average 9 boards a game..

sure his assists were low but why should he have passed...he was a unstoppable as a scorer most of the time..

He should be high on the SF list..
2332100, Pippen --> KG; Nique--> Dirk; King--> Melo
Posted by FILF, Thu May-29-14 12:43 AM
Granted that 3ptrs weren't a big part of the game in the 80s/early 90s.
2332179, definitely belonged on Top 50 list over Worthy or Drexler
Posted by Bombastic, Thu May-29-14 11:39 AM
>this subject got me lookin at some numbers....
>
>You can't sleep on Pippen either because his assists were high
>particularly for a SF..
>
>but damn...
>
>Dominique Wilkins numbers are friggin incredible.....of course
>the 30...28...27 PPG.....
>
>but had some solid rebounding seasons too.... his 90-91 season
>he averaged 9 boards a game...shot 34% from three..and
>averaged what was for him a lower 25.9 PPG... but it's some
>pretty good SFs who didn't average 9 boards a game..
>
>sure his assists were low but why should he have passed...he
>was a unstoppable as a scorer most of the time..
>
>He should be high on the SF list..
2332109, im ok w/ this nm
Posted by Binlahab, Thu May-29-14 04:13 AM

does it really matter?
2332178, well, duh(c)Marge Simpson
Posted by Bombastic, Thu May-29-14 11:38 AM
2332250, Bird & Rick Barry is gonna respond to this on a Kay Slay mixtape
Posted by mtbatol, Thu May-29-14 02:57 PM