http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jamies-winston.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=US_ASP_20140416&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=2


In any event, what an utter failure of the justice system.

quote:

A month before the rape accusation became public, the university’s
victim advocate learned that a second woman had sought counseling
after a sexual encounter with Mr. Winston, according to the
prosecutor’s office. The woman did not call it rape — she did not
say “no.” But the encounter, not previously reported, “was of such a
nature that she felt violated or felt that she needed to seek some
type of counseling for her emotions about the experience,” according
to Georgia Cappleman, the chief assistant state attorney, who said
she had spoken with the advocate but not with the woman.

The victim advocate was concerned enough about the episode to have
alerted Mr. Winston’s first accuser.

Ms. Cappleman said that based on what she was told, a crime had not
been committed. Nonetheless, Ms. Cappleman said she found the
encounter troubling, because it “sheds some light on the way Mr.
Winston operates” and on what may be “a recurring problem rather than
some type of misunderstanding that occurred in an isolated situation.”

Unless they deliberately wanted to cover this up?

Or is this common?

And botching sexual assault cases is pretty common according to this article.

.

.

but you need to

Is how some women were quick to say he wasn't guilty. It's clear that men who don't do anything play a large part of rape culture but there is this dirty underbelly where women forsake the POSSIBILITY of their favorite male athlete/entertainer being a rapist.

shit gets really weird.

during the investigation, just out of curiosity, i read through the Scout FSU boards and honestly it was the most disturbing shit I've ever seen on a sports message board. After 5 min I was through. And it demonstrated how easily sexual assaults would be encouraged to be swept under the rug and how speaking up as a victim would be hell on earth.

You'd think that eventually we'd reach a tipping point on this kind of shit within CFB or sports in general where somehow the powers that be would get control of letting superstars do whatever the fuck they want or at least be incentivized to put an end to it. But after the PSU sanctions were *lessened* it's hard not to see how this won't continue.


>Is how some women were quick to say he wasn't guilty. It's
>clear that men who don't do anything play a large part of rape
>culture but there is this dirty underbelly where women forsake
>the POSSIBILITY of their favorite male athlete/entertainer
>being a rapist.

>shit gets really weird.
>
>during the investigation, just out of curiosity, i read
>through the Scout FSU boards and ...

shoulda seen the jokes gator fans were making after moeller got sucker punched and needed brain surgery...

you don't want to generalize off what is a small sample.

with that said, in the specific instance of a woman reporting sexual assault in a college football town, i don't have high expectations for the attitudes and behaviors of her fellow 18-22 year old students.

look no further than the reactions of PSU students after the JoePa shit went down. you're not dealing with a highly enlightened crowd.

for people to ask the stupid fucking question "how did it get to this point?"

this is a time where i'm so very glad i don't have a daughter but man do i feel for all the people that do.

>shit gets really weird.
>
>during the investigation, just out of curiosity, i read
>through the Scout FSU boards and honestly it was the most
>disturbing shit I've ever seen on a sports message board.
>After 5 min I was through. And it demonstrated how easily
>sexual assaults would be encouraged to be swept under the rug
>and how speaking up as a victim would be hell on earth.
>
>You'd think that eventually we'd reach a tipping point on this
>kind of shit within CFB or sports in general where somehow the
>powers that be would get control of letting superstars do
>whatever the fuck they want or at least be incentivized to put
>an end to it. But after the PSU sanctions were *lessened* it's
>hard not to see how this won't continue.
>
>
>>Is how some women were quick to say he wasn't guilty. It's
>>clear that men who don't do anything play a large part of
>rape
>>culture but there is this dirty underbelly where women
>forsake
>>the POSSIBILITY of their favorite male athlete/entertainer
>>being a rapist.

But I won't. Hell, some of the Deadspin comments were bad enough (and that place was mostly, at the very least, willing to admit that the police royally fucked up and didn't want to just call the victim a lying whore who wanted to ruin FSU's season.)

People are awful.

one thing I remember which stuck out...someone had a meme in their sig with a distraught girl in her underwear sitting at the foot of her torn apart bed crying with a caption of "Just because you regret it doesn't make it rape."

and this was this person's *SIG*...so ya know, it's posted like 50 times throughout a thread along with everyone else's horribly offensive shit.

sometimes we forget that this board here is actually pretty refined as far as hanging on the internets go, lol.

>sometimes we forget that this board here is actually pretty
>refined as far as hanging on the internets go, lol.

I might slam y'all, but the OKS mean IQ is easily among
the highest on the internets

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>sometimes we forget that this board here is actually pretty
>refined as far as hanging on the internets go, lol.

It seems like 9/10 sports-related places on the internet are populated by the guys from Coors Light commercials.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24526468/report-michigan-mishandled-alleged-sexual-assault-case

good thing the UMICH student body isn't in as much denial as the resident OKS umich numb skull.


smh brady hoke.

Rhodes Scholar, everyone:

https://twitter.com/MyronRolle/status/456461169159446529


The reaction to these stories is almost as
horrifying to the allegations themselves; if I
was a female victim, I'd be even more unwilling/
scared to step forward with this much ignorance
and stupidity in the world.

...it's the tone and the way the author seems to take
the accuser and her attorney's word at face value.
Especially the way the author carefully lays out the
accuser's version of the incident, without even throwing
in a footnote about the myriad inconsistencies of and
evidence contrary to her account. Basically, portions
of this reads like a sneak attempt at convicting Winston
in the court of public opinion, and it's unnecessary to
- and might even undermine - the main point of the
article.

It's great that they want to hold the Tallahassee
police's feet to the fire when dealing with cases like
this, but that little implication that Winston got away
with rape that runs through the whole thing is gross.

the whole POINT of the article is the Tallahassee PD utterly failed in collecting the necessary evidence needed to help make a meaningful determination in this case. The incompetence of the TPD leaves us with nothing but victim and accuser statements, and it's pretty plain to see -- supported in this article with quotes by other law enforcement experts reviewing the casework -- that TPD seemed to be pushing the victim to drop the case.

What else does this NYT writer have to pull from BESIDES the victim statements, given the TPD failed in investigating what would seem to be basic, obvious evidentiary sources?

- Her story changed. She initially said she was hit
over the head and when she came to she was being
raped, and then she said she was drugged, and then
said she was just blackout drunk. There was no evidence
of her being hit on the head, urine tests showed that
she was never drugged, and her BAC was lower than that
of a typical woman who is incapacitated by alcohol.

- The bruises they found on her body were inconsistent
with her description of the sexual encounter and consistent
with that of Winston and the two other witnesses.

- She initially identified the perpetrator as being
5'9". Winston is 6'3"

- TPD says the accuser and one of her friends were
uncooperative throughout long stretches of the
investigation.

Again, there's nothing wrong with thinking the TPD
investigation wasn't thorough enough, but they did
do an investigation and found that there wasn't enough
evidence to prosecute. A good article would address
the contrary evidence and show why the case should
have gone forward nevertheless. Or frame the article
in a way so that it didn't implicitly accuse a man
of being a rapist despite there being evidence to
the contrary. This was not a good article.

and has nothing to do with TPD's incompetence in gathering seemingly basic evidence when handling the case? It's not the victim's job to prove what did or didn't happen. It's the cops.

One of the early direct quotes in that NYT article is a law enforcement source saying, "The evidence might very well still show no prosecution is needed, but why wasn't this handled better?

This isn't just some journalist saying TPD handled this poorly, this is review panels, other law enforcement officers, victim advocates -- a wide range of people who look at this and see that TPD could have handled this better. Yet here you are mad because the victim, through her attorney, is allowed to speak without the journalist attacking every direct statement after its made.

The NYTimes can write an article about:

1) the incompetence of TPD while investigating this rape
or
2) how Jameis Winston got away with rape

The article was ostensibly about 1), but veered towards
2). And that's bullshit. Because if you're gonna accuse
someone of rape then you'd damn well better put all the
facts on the table. Would you think it acceptable if
instead they just published Winston's side of the story,
and uncritically concluded that the accuser was a crazy
liar, even if there was actual physical evidence that
contradicted his version?

to lack of evidence collection, the matter could never be investigated fully.

The fact that only one side is upset about the lack of evidence collecting is kinda telling tho. I mean, Jameis has a cloud of suspicion over his head. If the evidence would have fully exonerated him or put him in a better light, his side should be upset with how the police department handled the situation as well. for example the video...

If you're 18 years old, a future #1 pick, from a modest
background, black and honestly didn't rape the woman
you're glad you're walking free

You're waaaaay more upset at the girl who lied than
you are at the police department for screwing up
the investigation

But again: this is only the case if Jameis honestly
didn't do anything wrong

I'm just saying
----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I mean he's gonna have a career and reputation, endorsements etc.

I understand that police effing up an investigation benefits the accused, but, if you are completely innocent, the evidence should only help your image. But i haven't heard a peep from his side saying something to the tune of 'due diligence by the police would have helped my client'

and easily and you're not getting the bulk of the post-allegation shit dumped on you instead, the police department looks like shit at the end. i don't think it matters, and I don't think anyone would be like "man, I wish the case against me had been pursued better!" even if you were 100% in the clear.

at this point, Winston's name hasn't been hurt by the case and not talking about it is the best/easiest PR standpoint for him.

it would be an interesting move were he to say something like "while i didn't do it, i think it's appalling how poorly TPD and FSU investigated the accusation and, if any good can come of this unfortunate situation, it is for rape and sexual assault cases to be handled as the severe, urgent crisis they are and never again like this, regardless of who the accuser or accused is."


-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

>it would be an interesting move were he to say something like
>"while i didn't do it, i think it's appalling how poorly TPD
>and FSU investigated the accusation and, if any good can come
>of this unfortunate situation, it is for rape and sexual
>assault cases to be handled as the severe, urgent crisis they
>are and never again like this, regardless of who the accuser
>or accused is."

Because none of this happens if she don't lie.

If he's innocent, than he should be mad his life was almost
destroyed by a liar.

And if you think that's selfish, think about what you were like
at 18-19.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>If he's innocent, than he should be mad his life was almost
>destroyed by a liar.

which would have been easily disproven by a good/fair process.


>And if you think that's selfish, think about what you were
>like
>at 18-19.

this sentence is illogical. if it's selfish, it doesn't matter what age one is. it's selfish. if it's reasonable to expect, that's a whole different story, but i wasn't talking about things i expected to happen. the most expected thing is rarely the best

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

>facts on the table. Would you think it acceptable if
>instead they just published Winston's side of the story,
>and uncritically concluded that the accuser was a crazy
>liar, even if there was actual physical evidence that
>contradicted his version?

what a bad false equivalency.
-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

and you post "TPD did an investigation..." and use that as the basis for, once again, shaming the accuser.

i mean. goddamn.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

That was even beside my point, but if you want the contrary evidence, there it is.

How does any of that change this story's main point that the police didn't properly investigate the charge properly.

It doesn't. So including it would just be shaming the victim again.

In essence, you point out that the girl's story was inconsistent (which, by the way, means absolutely nothing when we've established a sexual encounter did occur). If we were to build a theory where the victim was potentially rufie'd by these guys, then it might add up why she was unclear or inconsistent. The key piece of evidence in proving or disproving this theory, would be the security footage from the bar, which was never recovered.

Also, you mention that she was "uncooperative" at times with TPD. Perhaps that's because she felt threatened or on trial or mishandled by TPD. That's exactly why a victim advocate is needed, in order to help a victim, in a very low, very difficult emotional moment, navigate the stressful world of law enforcement. And the article goes so far as to speak with another accuser/victim, one with a father involved in law enforcement in another jurisdiction, who reports a similar pattern of very inappropriate handling by TPD during the investigation. If TPD is handling the accusers as poorly as described in the article, (not to mention the social firestorm that would erupt around something like this at FSU) it shouldn't be surprising when the accuser/victim is a bit reticent to answer TPD's every call.

So yeah -- I do appreciate you talking about the article in good faith. It's just hard not to get ... well ... REALLY upset when you look at something like this and see a major failure of the justice system. And if you came away from it feeling like Jameis is a rapist, well ... the fact is, he sure wasn't a gentleman to this girl. EVEN IF it was 100% consensual, if your daughter brought home a guy who you knew took a heavily intoxicated girl home from a bar so he could fuck her while his bros watched out the door, filming parts of it, then unceremoniously sent her on her way, surely you'd feel something about your own daughter going on a date with that guy? Anyway...

I mean, this whole situation is HER FAULT, amirite?

Women, mannnnn - can't trust them to NOT make guys wanna do stuff to em.

New Mantra: anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


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that seems like excellent leadership. Move from leaders who cover up for pedophiles to leaders who don't investigate rapes appropriately.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

>that seems like excellent leadership. Move from leaders who
>cover up for pedophiles to leaders who don't investigate rapes
>appropriately.
>
>-----------
>Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014
>-Rex LongFellow
>
>It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.
>
>http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ih01ky.gif

the lack of institutional control

although on a smaller scale

a sexual assault

delayed response, and what seemed to be an intentional delay

possible federal charges?

FSU should be facing some sanctions, no?

look at what the sanctions did to PSU. NOTHING. they hired FSU's fucking president and put up a new statue of Paterno. NOTHING CHANGED.

fuck a sanction. that's the institutional version of papal indulgences.

-----------
Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014 -Rex LongFellow

Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario

It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

this story has died twice

?

didn't the sanctions include vacating all the Ws during the time these assaults took place?

= no heisman and no chip

>look at what the sanctions did to PSU. NOTHING. they hired
>FSU's fucking president and put up a new statue of Paterno.
>NOTHING CHANGED.
>
>fuck a sanction. that's the institutional version of papal
>indulgences.
>
>-----------
>Y'all stupid...should've tanked for Lebron/Wiggins in 2014
>-Rex LongFellow
>
>Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt
>after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario
>
>It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilariou

the TPD.

Florida State can't help it if the city police department is a bunch of jock-worshiping fuckups. Coming down on the school won't change that.

"University administrators, in apparent violation of federal law, did not promptly investigate either the rape accusation or the witness’s admission that he had videotaped part of the encounter.

Records show that Florida State’s athletic department knew about the rape accusation early on, in January 2013, when the assistant athletic director called the police to inquire about the case. Even so, the university did nothing about it, allowing Mr. Winston to play the full season without having to answer any questions. After the championship game, in January 2014, university officials asked Mr. Winston to discuss the case, but he declined on advice of his lawyer."

sounds like the head in the sand routine to me

"A campus police officer responded, listened to the accuser’s account and then drove her to the hospital for a sexual assault examination"

wouldn't that result in a report being filed to the university?

"According to federal rules, any athletic department official who learns of possible sexual misconduct is required to pass it on to school administrators."

if that means they need to apply pressure to the local PD to make sure that shit gets handled properly then so be it.

without repercussions somewhere along the chain this shit will keep happening.

>Coming down on the school
>won't change that.

Because it's a serious problem EVERYWHERE.

But I think it's a lot bigger than anything the NCAA can do.