Somewhat of a spin off of all these posts about the 95 Rockets/Hakeem and the 96 Jazz.

People always say that if Jordan hadn't retired, the Bulls would have got 8 in a row, 91-98.

I don't know...it's really a hard call. I feel that the way things happened, it might have worked best. Three peats are already extremely hard, but I think the years when they lost may have given them a chance to refocus and not just cruise on auto pilot like some dynasties have done in NBA and other sports. But...shit...I still can't really call it.

Poll question: If Jordan hadn't retired...the Bulls win 8 straight?

Poll result (47 votes) Yes (22 votes) Vote No...still would have had 6-7 rings though (22 votes) Vote No, they wouldn't have won six either (2 votes) Vote Yes, and if they stayed together, could have won in 99, even 2000 (1 votes) Vote

Also hard to say who would have beat them, but 8 straight is just so long without any hiccups, there is a good chance that after 4 or 5 they may have just eased up one year and overlooked a tough squad somewhere.

Very likely that those last 3 would have been a totally different attitude on the team, may have seen a lot less fire when going for 8 or 9 in a row.

Also may have seen more if Jordan wanted to just keep doing something that could never be topped. I lean towards no it wouldn't have happened just by what I've come to expect in sports.

when we haven't seen more than 3 since the 60's. It's just too exhausting.

Steve Kerr was actually on with Simmons saying there was no chance of that happening & thinking that the third being as taxing as it was may have contributed in small part to MJ's retirement in '94.

never went to a 7 game series in the Finals means that they easily just ran through those years.

his retirement *helped* them in some way that would suggest they'd have won less if he hadn't take the time off. it was probably OK for his knee, sure, but he was playing baseball and of course he didn't take two *full* years off either anyway.

would have still won 6 or 7 championships in that time frame....which means they would have lost in 1-2 of those years

I'm not interpreting right.

They would have had six or seven. Meaning, I'm for sure not just giving them the 96-98 years as victories. I'm really giving them 91-93 as the ones that they won for sure, but after that, saying they'd win 3-4 more. Not sure why it's confusing

I don't see how those wouldn't be a given if he stayed....not that serious, ill move on

What transpires in those in-between 2 years would change the trajectory at least a little bit. Different wear and tear, different motivations, different rosters, etc

Make sense now.

Are they sufficiently motivated to win 3 more rings? Do they make the same personnel moves? Do other teams built a super team trying to beat them?

A lot could be different...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================
Occupy Big Government..

Fannie, Freddie dole out big bonuses
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They didn't just play "for June" (c) Kobe

After Holiday Sale, take advantage of 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 | Nike, G-Star, Spiewak, etc.
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that Rockets team is the worst possible matchup for those Bulls squads
it'd be a serious fight but it'd end up with either Jorn being 7-1 or 8-o

orlando could have caught them slipping and if there was any blood in the water (injuries, fatigue, etc) then you know the knicks would have pounced all over that. plenty of hatred there.

Probably makes a failed attempt at golf or something

After 5 or 6 in a row with the extra wear on his body and the team probably rebuilding in some way why wouldn't he hang it up?

playing with them for those 8 years.

Nowadays people like to think of the Bulls as Jordan and Pippen but Horace Grant was also a key member of that first 3-peat squad and almost just as important as Pippen for his tough low-post D(he was 4x All-Defense) and as the #3 scorer he was really considered to be part of the Bulls "big 3". After the 93-94 season he signed with Orlando as a free-agent and they missed having him down-low big time in 94-95 and that forced them to trade for Rodman which was seen as somewhat of a desperation move at the time but it worked out and Rodman was a major part of that 2nd three-peat.

So that plus taking into consideration the possibility of injuries and other issues dealing with contracts and egos and whatnot it's hard to say realistically.

With a "dynasty" type team like that in a modern media environment it's like a 24-hour circus around the team and that wears on guys after a while. The stars can usually handle it but not the role players and that's where things usually start to come apart. Outside of Jordan and Pippen the 2nd 3-peat team was completely different from the first and those seasons in between were sort of "reboot" years, it would've been tough to do that only the fly while still winning titles every year.

and that last 3 peat he was drained. and i see why Jerry Krause was slow stepping about bringing them back, because the wear and tear had started to become noticeable.

that last Chip run Scottie was sitting out and threatening not to play and they looked very vulnerable.

they got lucky 3 times that year

first with Pippen coming back

next with the pacers non rebounding selves who should have won game 7

and the also because the Jazz couldn't get Rony Siekly from the Heat, i always say a legit Big in the glass and the Bulls run would look very different IMO.

anyway 98 you could see the writing on the wall that they were done.

Pippen had a year and half good with portland, but he was done and never fit in houston.

Jordan should have stayed retired that wizards era was cute and mostly forgettable.

Rodman was a walking tourist attraction and his game was never the same.

He pushed Jordan out the door and sent Chicago into mediocrity for a decade.

and then Rose got them back to respectable status again, however Jordan was on his last real good legs in 98 IMO.

i saw Pippen and Rodman falling off and I understand the move. however Jordan didn't want to start from scratch.

that last series against the Jazz was there last best. i couldn't see the Bulls being that deep on that level again.

when at 38 he was able to avg 22/5/5 coming off golfing...

nothing more to say after you make that kind of shot.

they loked vulnerable against the pacers in 98, like i said had the pacers knew how to rebound, that series would have gone to the pacers and i think krause saw that.

they as a team were getting older and also pippen had enough in the chi. rodman might have had a year left in the tank very debateable.

98 though was the year to ride off into the sunset.

them wizard years don't count. while he could score his team was average at best. doug collins was out of place.

i always say leave something to the imagination as to show folks you are done.

After the first three MJ was mentally drained, and he didn't appreciate basketball as much as he did the second time around. He put up constant challenges to motivate him and after winning three consecutive, first time since the 60s Celtics, he probably had run out.

The year and a half off, with the subsequent flameout during the Magic, gave him the fire to go for three more. People were asking those SERIOUS questions "Has he lost a step?" "Will he be as great as he was before?" "Is the Jordan we remember gone?" when in reality, he had baseball muscles and a lack of basketball conditioning. The embarrassment of HOW they lost to the Magic is what propelled him to do what he had done before retiring the first time.

Now Houston and San Antonio always gave the Bulls trouble in the regular season, but I don't think it would be the same in the playoffs. The Knicks who SHOULD have probably beat the Rockets had Riley pulled Starks at some point gave the Rockets all they could handle even though the Bulls owned them with Jordan. Hakeem ate up Patrick but the Knicks still hung in there. I can see Chicago letting Hakeem get his points but keeping the rest of the Rockets honest.

But as I said, I think it's more about what happened in 95 that propelled them to another threepeat than the notion that they'd have won 8 straight.

>I can see Chicago letting Hakeem get his points but
>keeping the rest of the Rockets honest.

.

The Bulls pushed the Knicks to 7 games w/o Cheese-Eyes & imagine what he would have done to the Rockets guards if Starks was styling all over them until GM 7.

In 95 Clyde was on a mission & Dream was not to be denied.

in the finals.

funny you mention starks and somebody called ewing out as a leader because pat riley rode with starks period in game 7.

those rockets teams were mentally tough and also fought back.

robert horry was starting his post season legacy back then.

would have been inteesting

Deke, Laimbeer & Rik Smits ain't too shabby either

on the way there

http://bit.ly/13tM7d7

They also never faced Zo in the playoffs. They faced Shaq twice. He beat them the first time. The second time, he averaged 27/11/4.

>http://bit.ly/13tM7d7
He had his best game in 94 when Cheese-Eyes was still on vacation, so that's irrelevant. Besides 94, he was sub-par for his standards.

>They also never faced Zo in the playoffs.
Are you sure about that...please check '96 & '97.

>They faced Shaq
>twice. He beat them the first time. The second time, he
>averaged 27/11/4.
That's pretty average for Shaq.

Reign of terror.

especially when there's a 2 year gap in between..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================
Occupy Big Government..

Fannie, Freddie dole out big bonuses
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would have been ours maybe not both
so yeah

Not to mention Tim/Admiral would have been too much insides. The 99 Knicks basically had a duo of Houston/Spree that was comparable to the aging MJ/Pip & the 99 Spurs were a better version of the 90s Knicks team that gave the Bulls fits.

COULD they have won 8 straight? If Jordan stays and they STILL get Rodman before the 95-96 season? Yes, 8 in a row was possible.

But I'm inclined to say they would have won in 94 (people over blow that Rockets team when they BARELY beat the knicks in 7 that yr) but I think 95 woulda been the tell tale season. Hou with finals experience coming back for another run might have been the end of things BUT considering they were a 6th seed, who's to say them losing to Chi the yr prior wouldn't have had some effect and they don't get back?

If I had to bet, they would have won 5 straight and then MJ retires. But for sure they don't get #6 if they don't get Rodman and to a lesser extent Harper.

the first 3peat team has the best chance to, but I still take the Rockets in 6.

and those rocket teams beat those bulls teams in reg season a few times

in 93-94 the bulls got BIGGER and DEEPER.

Longley, Wennington and Kukoc were added to Cartwright and Horace grant.

Kerr was added for 3's to replace Hodges and MJ's replacement avg'd 7ppg in the playoffs and 8ppg in the reg season.

All this to say, they had the size to throw at Dream and nobody on Hou was stopping MJ from getting 35 a night.

That first season they beat the rockets in 6. The next season, when Grant leaves and Hou gets Drexler might have been a different story but even then I don't bet against MJ.

1994 finals...Ya'll do realize John Starks 3-18 (2-8 from 3) in game 1 of that series...which the Rockets only won by 7 points right?

Ya'll do realize John Starks went 2-18 and 0-11 from 3 in game 7...which the Rockets won by only 6 points right?

NO way MJ lets Hou off the hook for 2 games like that. Ya'll better revist that Phx series. MJ was NOT for no bullshit and the supporting cast was stellar too.

If the bulls outside shots weren't falling? The size down low would give the bulls fits.

Also, the Rockets PGs would go ballistic on offense against the Bulls 1s.

The difference was that the Knicks lacked shot makers during crunch time, otherwise it was a standstill bloodbath. LMAO @ you hyping up the Rockets guards, Starks & Harper got the best of them. (Imagine what Pip/MJ woulda done to them along w/ BJ.) If it wasn't for Ewing choking in GM 6 it would have been a different story.

Those 2 guys were basically spotting up & getting ate up on the defensive end.

Defensively they were about even.

Bulls held teams to 2ppg fewer
Rockets had a better FG% D by 2%
Bulls blocked 62 more shots
Rockets had 37 more steals

^^^Says the bulls had better interior D than the Rockets and only had 37 less steals while missing one of the premier defensive G's of all time (Jordan avg'd almost 3 at 2.8 steals a game the yr before)

>If the bulls outside shots weren't falling? The size down low
>would give the bulls fits.

Bill Cartright 7'1"
Horace Grant 6'10"
Toni Kukoc 6'10"
Luc Longley 7'2"
Stacy King 6'11"
Scott Williams 6'10"
Bill Wennington 7'
Will Perdue 7'

Not to mention Jordan was 6'6" and Pip was 6'7" and each avg'd 6-7 boards a game. So even if the shots weren't falling, they could board just as good as Hou.

LMAO at size inside when Dream was the only 7 footer worth mentioning on that roster. Thorp and horry were only 6'9" and Horry didn't even board that well. It was basically Thorp boarding and dream blocking shots. And trust me, if he got challenged enough, Dream would be in foul trouble.


>Also, the Rockets PGs would go ballistic on offense against
>the Bulls 1s.

So Kenny Smith and a rookie Sam Cassell were gonna beast better than KJ did the yr prior? Really? So allstar BJ Armstrong was chopped liver huh? So Steve Kerr wasn't shooting 41% from 3 that season huh? BJ wasn't shooting 44% from 3 huh? Paxson wasn't shooting 40% from 3 huh?

LMAO

C'mon dude. Just say you're a big Dream fan and you like the Rockets. Cuz you can't obviously have paid any attention to basketball the season in question or the prior season.

20 years later, lol. Unless you just Rain Manning stats like that.

The rockets played in a West that was much better offensively than the bulls east. The east after Chi, NYK, and ORL was pretty wack.

Also the Rockets consistently gave the bulls fits during Jordan's run, no matter what lineup.

>20 years later, lol. Unless you just Rain Manning stats like
>that.

The stats just help drive home the point.

>The rockets played in a West that was much better offensively
>than the bulls east. The east after Chi, NYK, and ORL was
>pretty wack.

Nope...pacers (made the conf finals) were good and so were the Hawks (#1 seed). So by my count, that's 5 legit teams in each conf (spurs, jazz, sonics, rockets, suns).

And the rockets got gifted 3 games in the finals (starks shat the bed in games 1 and 7 and Ewing choked away game 6 with his missed layup that shoulda been a dunk). The Bulls don't give Hou that many opportunities to win and Chi was a better team than NY.

>Also the Rockets consistently gave the bulls fits during
>Jordan's run, no matter what lineup.

Reg season vs Post season. Knicks took the reg season series 3-1 in 92-93. What happened in the playoffs?

They were very well-coached, but NOBODY expected them to do shit, and they for damn sure wasn't any kind of offensive machine. The pacers had 3pt shooting and Rik Smits, but they weren't as good as the Isaiah Thomas Pacers from a few years later.

We gonna just agree to disagree

>1994 finals...Ya'll do realize John Starks 3-18 (2-8 from 3) in game 1 of that series...which the Rockets only won by 7 points right?

you can't erase it from history

Jorn came back and they lost in the playoffs BETWEEN the two three-peats. Could they have won 7? That's a question. Could they have won eight? Nope.

Basically, the whole team was on fire ala 2001 Lakers......Dream/Clyde/Horry/Ellie/Cassell.....& even Kenny in the Finals. They had a stingy D & versatility at the offensive end that no team could match: inside, outsides, mid-range, drives to the baskets. Add to the fact that Dream was playing w/ a chip on his shoulder & Clyde was HUNGRY for a chip.......nobody had a chance in 95. They basically willed their way into the finals & once the prize was within their reach they weren't to be denied in 95.

>Basically, the whole team was on fire ala 2001
>Lakers
the 2001 Lakers lost ONE game the entire playoffs. Houston's run was incredible, but they were pushed to the limit numerous times.

they were down 3-1 to the Suns, and should have probably lost. KJ beasted like shit, and it was the beginning of Chuck's body breaking down. in any event, they were on the ropes in several series. That Lakers team was never even threatened.


......Dream/Clyde/Horry/Ellie/Cassell.....& even Kenny
>in the Finals. They had a stingy D & versatility at the
>offensive end that no team could match: inside, outsides,
>mid-range, drives to the baskets. Add to the fact that Dream
>was playing w/ a chip on his shoulder & Clyde was HUNGRY for a
>chip.......nobody had a chance in 95. They basically willed
>their way into the finals & once the prize was within their
>reach they weren't to be denied in 95.
a team of destiny run for sure, but they were not the buzzsaw that the Lakers were and their championship experience versus none with each of their opponents played in their favor.

All I mentioned was that the whole team was on fire from the stars to the role players which was the same case as the '01 Lakers.

although Jordan was getting 31 a game when he was supposedly "not in condition"

People definitely wanted to shoot themselves in the eyes with the Men in Black lasers after those disastrous years.

If you don't think that matters, you either don't know hoops or you're just being biased.

With Grant playing for the Magic and no Rodman they had nothing for Orlando.

Obviously we can't ever know how the Bulls would have fared, but because of Jordan's "perfection" in the Finals we see him with this invincible aura around him during that time. Do we not remember him losing in the '95 playoffs? Oh, but he came back in the middle of the year yada yada I've heard it all by now.

No way he wins 8 straight. Nobody's ever gonna do that again after Bill Russell.

Even Wizards Jorn, I get. But that year, 95, he was getting 31 in the damn playoffs!!!

>
>Even Wizards Jorn, I get. But that year, 95, he was getting 31
>in the damn playoffs!!!

shooting at a Kobe like FG percentage though. Everyone knows he didn't have his legs back under him. Nevermind the Bulls team without a presence like Horace Grant was not situated to contend for the title.

>
>Even Wizards Jorn, I get. But that year, 95, he was getting 31
>in the damn playoffs!!!

That was damn near a two year break though. You're not gonna come back in March in game shape after 21 months away from the game. That's a legit pass IMO.

I see no reason in the world why the '94 Bulls (with a healthy MJ) couldn't have taken out the Rockets. Remember, it took the Rockets 7 games to beat a Knicks team that the Bulls routinely beat up on. Ewing/Starks shot horribly that series and the games were still close.

5 in a row is pushing it though. I think the Bulls may have stumbled/lost focus at some point. But from a talent perspective, I see no reason why they wouldn't have been able to beat the Rockets in both '94 & '95. Yes, the Dream was unstoppable. But folks act like those Rockets teams were invincible. I swear they are the most overrated team on these boards. They were a vulnerable team. I was young then, but vividly remember them being down/faced with elimination a few times during that '95 run. They were hardly unbeatable like some folks here like to tell it.

The fact both teams were able to come out on top after facing adversity speaks volumes to their mental fortitude & hunger to win. The Rockets actually won a bunch of road games against higher seeds. That team was built for the post-season b/c they were a collection vets & big shot makers that can grind through a series as opposed to blaze through their opposition on any given Sunday.

..as much as people like to debate whether or not hakeem's rockets could be jordan's bulls, i don't think that would've been tale of the tape.

the real challenge would be jordan vs jordan. on the heels of his father's murder, i really don't think jordan would've been healthy enough (mentally) to survive it all. his lifestyle & habits leading up to that were already destructive enough. his break from the NBA probably saved his life.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

..however, we all know he walked away from the NBA at the apex of his career.

when i said 'break,' i was referring to the pressure of being the world's best athlete during their dynasty. while he still faced scrutiny in the media and continued other athletic pursuits, it was nowhere near the level of pressure he faced in the NBA.

that said, i think that break from the game saved his life.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

because he didn't win 7.

*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

That's damn near 2 years away from the game. No way he was in peak form after a long break like that.

That post-season, he averaged 31.5 points 4.5 assists, 6.5 boards, 2.3 steals and 1.4 blocks. They lost to Shaq and Penny

The following season (when they added Rodman) He averaged 30.7 points, 4.1 boards, 4.9 boards, 1.8 steals and .03 blocks. They won a chip.

N

The man wasn't in game shape but carry on

including the turnover we all remember.

That shit doesn't happen to Jordan in that era any other time.

He was still playing his way back into shape. He shot 41% in the regular season that year, way below his normal level.

And I agree, the lack of a PF was a part of it too.

Regardless, we all knew they(he) were getting it together, and bouncing back and winning it in '96. Wasn't even a question.

w/o rodman, dream in his prime is getting his chips.

prime jorn + a dude pullin 17 boards per night + playing the best big-man defense EVER.

hot rod's dominance is almost as criminally slept-on as dream is

even as a shorty i used to trip off-that -- how you gonna pair the best offensive player with the best defensive player? that's racketeering.

.

as a free agent going over to the Magic the Bulls had to start Toni Kukoc at PF with Luc Longley and Will Purdue playing the 5. Horace had his way with those dudes in the Eastern conference semi-finals.

to a young ass Sonics team, in 96 he lost to a more seasoned Sonics team, that same Sonics team was dominated by the Bulls in the Finals. The next 2 years the Rockets got knocked off by the Jazz who were dominated by the Bulls in the Finals.

From 88 to 92 Dream either lost in the first round or didn't even make the playoffs.

Obviously he was great for a long time.

But by 94 and 95, his footwork and offensive game was so polished. And he still had most of the athleticism of his younger days at that point.

Plus he had shooters around him in those years, which is all he needed. It was 20 years ago, but all I recall was Hakeem doing work in the post, and when he was doubled kicking it out to Kenny, Elie, Cassell, or Horry who all shot the lights out.

http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20080906&t=2&i=5885239&w=644&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=img-2008-09-06T110725Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-353469-1

so if rodman AND robinson couldn't stop olajuwon in his prime, i'm certain rodman and purdue probably couldn't, lol

.
.
.
"Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And if you believe in him, he can be your's too."

Asking about the Houston Clutch City Doc NBA TV had on last night.

Or do you just like making stuff up?

That was damn near half of the narrative..."would they have won 1-2 Rings if Jordan had been there in those years?" And the Rockets players all felt that they FOR SURE would have beat Chicago at least once.

And....crazy, but I created this post EXACTLY two years ago.

go tell it on the mountain!!!!!!!! why do mufuckas forget this??

exactly.

handshake agreement with stern so mj and the league could both save public face?

no internets back then obviously, but the papers lightweight connected his dad's murder to the bookies. i mean, james jordan was found sleeping with the fishes.

And I heard that his dad was killed over gambling, although the news tried to make it sound like it was just random as shit that an older Black man was killed.

then there you have it.

otherwise i don't think we'll ever get "proof". the league doesn't want any more federal heat or anti-trust oversight that it's received in the 20 years since mj was swatting mosquitoes down in AA ball.

The master of burying shit...he would just sit at the podium and smirk.

assuming jordan never leaves in 93, i definitely think they could've won 94. they return the entire core of the b2b2b chip team: prime jordan, a better bj armstrong, better pippen, better grant. they still bring in kukoc and kerr in the offseason to fortify the bench, and still move stacey king in february for longley (who was essentially the mozgov of the 2nd 3peat squad)

remember they won 55 (!) games in 94 w/o mj. his presence easily pushes that to 60+ so they enjoy HCA over the knicks (57-25) in the ECF and the rockets (58-24) in the finals. remember the 93 squad won w/o home court in either of the last 2 rounds.

so yeah, i think they 4peat. beyond that it's really impossible to say for sure. too many what ifs re: roster construction. does grant leave a 4x champion for orlando? maybe, but prolly not. so prolly no rodman. which tbh would've been an upgrade, 95-98 grant was a better player than rodman. do they still lose bj in the expansion draft? is harper still signed or does a different, maybe younger player fill that role? jordan never leaving means different win totals, so different draft positions and team needs. maybe they take person in 94 or finley in 95. etc etc.

also, there's prolly no way jordan handles as many minutes as he played from 96-98 without the 2 yr sabbatical.

so again, way too many variables to really say. but regardless of roster, i can't imagine a healthy jordan and pippen in their primes _not_ fielding teams that were competitive in the title race every year. they were just too good.